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EWA and the Warriors - Answers all your questions

EWA and the Warriors!

Any playoff hopes the Warriors had during the 08-09 season were destroyed the moment the team learned Monta Ellis injured his ankle in Mopedgate. The franchise crushing injury was just the first of many injuries that plagued the Warriors during the 08-09 season as the team rarely had their projected starting five of Monta, Jackson, Magette, Wright, and Biedrins on the floor at the same time and found themselves struggling to field enough players to play a game.

Many Warrior fans have pointed to injuries as the cause of the Warriors dismal record, but just how good could the Warriors have been last year with a healthy Monta Ellis? Would we be a playoff team? A championship caliber team? What can we expect from the Warriors for next season? What steps should the team make to become a playoff team? A championship caliber team? Should we trade for Chris Bosh? Amare? Boozer? Would Andre Miller push the Warriors like Billups did in Denver? These are all questions that Warriors fans find themselves asking as we watch the 2nd season unfold.

Luckily for us we are living in an age where every statistic you can think of is being created and tracked and this season John Hollinger introduced to us the Estimated Win Added (EWA) statistic. The statistic intrigued me and like any basketball fan I looked at how each of the players on my favorite team did. Then, I wanted to see how the Warriors stacked up with the Lakers and how it looked compared to the Kings. From there I ended up compiling the EWA of every player who qualified (need to play at least 500 minutes) on each NBA team. Compiling the data took some time but the information I have obtained from the data has been eye opening. It has been so informative it will help answer almost every question that Warrior fans have been asking themselves since this terrible season ended. It's a long read but hopefully you all appreciate the work and make this the most rec'd fan post ever.

 

 

Star-divide

 

EWA - What and Why?

Before I proceed with the analysis I should explain the EWA and why it is such a great statistic. John Hollinger’s PER is a good statistic as it quantifies a player’s effectiveness regardless of how many minutes they play on the court and standardized against all positions. As good as it is, PER has three faults:

 

(1) It projects player’s stats to 48 minutes basis

(2) It does not factor in positions

(3) It does not correctly factor defense (no statistic does).

 

PER assumes that a bench player who averages 10 minutes a game will simply be able to put up the same production when thrust into larger minutes. Because of that we have Brandan Wright as the 43rd best player in the NBA last season based on PER. While I like Wright there is no way he is the 43rd best player in the NBA. As NBA fans we also know that PG and a low post threat are the hardest positions to find quality players, where swingmen are dime a dozen. So contributions from these spots mean more. Also steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds which are factored into PER because they are the only "defensive" stats that are recorded are not reliable statistics to quantify a player’s defensive ability.

The beauty of the EWA is that it addresses two of the biggest weakness of the PER statistic by multiplying PER of a player by the total minutes played and giving each position a different replacement value which it subtracts from their PER (PF-11.5/PG – 11/ C-10.6/SG&SF – 10.5). The one downside (like PER or any basketball statistic) is the inability to accurately quantify defense and because of that Bruce Bowen is the WORST player in the NBA with a EWA of -3.8. Despite that wart it still produces a fairly accurate list of player rankings in the NBA as evidenced by a Top 5 of (1) Lebron, (2) Wade, (3) Chris Paul, (4) Howard, and (5) Kobe.

To check out how accurate the EWA is link the below:

EWA Top 50

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rLwuOOLTgsz-vNWX3dXpIeQ&output=html

So what can we gain from EWA? By looking at EWA individually you can view the impact of each player on his team and by analyzing teams we can see trends emerge between the rosters of playoff and lottery teams that factor in coaches’ rotations and injuries due to the minutes played factor of the EWA calculation. Of all the new statistics out there I feel that EWA is as close as it gets to perfectly quantifying a player’s worth.

 

For further info regarding VA/EWA check out what Hollinger said:

Hollinger on VA and EWA

 

 

Analyzing the Warriors using EWA

Warriors Roster EWA

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rsVLof1j9H2QvUJ8emfOPUQ&single=true&gid=0&output=html

 

By clicking the link above you can see what the Warriors Roster looks like based on EWA of every player who played more then 500 minutes. The Warrior who was worth the most wins was Andris Biedrins at 7.9 which rank as 50th in the NBA. Cap’n Jack is second on the team at 6.6 and Jamal Crawford rounds out the Top 3 at 5.4 EWA. Again I believe this is a pretty accurate list of the Warriors Top 3 players this past season. We all know how important Cap’n Jack and Biedrins are and Crawford single handedly won games with his scoring and clutch shots. It is also interesting to note that Randolph ranked 6th on the team despite Don Nelson refusing to play the rookie and that Maggette (5.1) and Azubukie (5.0) had nearly identical EWA despite the large disparity in contract value.

The EWA by team shows that the Warriors are the DEEPEST team in the ENTIRE NBA. Partly due to injuries, which gave more players minutes, and mostly due to the improved play of Azubukie, Watson, Morrow, Belinelli, and Randolph the Warriors have the MOST players with a positive EWA (12) and are actually the ONLY team without players possessing a negative EWA. Adding up the EWA of the players the Warriors’ total of 48.30 ranks as 7th best in the NBA trailing only the: Lakers, Nuggets, Blazers, Mavs, Jazz, Cavs, and Suns. Yes, that means the Warriors have a more talented roster than the Eastern Conference Champs, Orlando Magic. However, that’s as good as it gets. The Warriors average of 4.03 EWA per qualified player ranks middle of the pack at 14th in the NBA which is ahead of some playoff teams, but also behind some lottery teams. It only gets worse as compiling the average of teams’ Top 5 players, the Warriors mark of 6.0 ranks as 26th in the NBA ahead of only the Clippers, Kings, Bucks, and Pistons. Not exactly the company the Warriors wants to be keeping.

So what do all these numbers suggest? It shows that the Warriors have a roster full of legitimate NBA rotation players as evidenced by the EWA total and per player average, but had one of the weakest starting 5s in the NBA which was shown as Don Nelson changed starting line ups like Sean Combs changes names. This is not a revelation to Warrior fans that have been searching for a difference maker since BD left, but it is always comforting when observations are supported by statistics.

 

EWA Analysis of Lottery Teams

EWA of Lottery Teams Chart

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rsVLof1j9H2QvUJ8emfOPUQ&single=true&gid=2&output=html

 

When one examines the EWAs of lottery teams there are some clear trends that emerge. The biggest trend is the numerical value of total EWA of the lottery teams especially when you throw out the Suns (the only lottery team with a winning record). Of the 13 remaining lottery teams only our beloved Golden State Warriors had a total EWA greater than 40. This is expected of course as if the team were more talented they wouldn’t be a lottery team but the lack of talent and production on the lottery teams is remarkably drastic. Lebron James by himself had a EWA of 32.30 which is more than the ENTIRE roster of 7 lottery teams - T’Wolves, Grizz, Thunder, Clips, Kings, Bucks, and Wizards. This not only highlights how bad these teams were this past season, but the impact a true superstar can have on a team.

The per player averages of lottery teams varied from as low as 1.68 per player (Kings) to as high as 5.27 (Suns). When you throw out those two extremes, looking at per player EWA most range from 2-3.72 and only the Warriors, Bobcats, and Raptors broke the 4 EWA/player. While the Warriors have the deepest team in the NBA, the Bobcats and Raptors had the shallowest teams in the NBA with only 8 players qualifying for EWA. Despite having the most talented player not in the playoffs, Chris Bosh (15.6 EWA/11th overall), the Raptors failed to assemble a legitimate 8 man NBA rotation with only 6 players (including Bosh) having a positive EWA, which tied for the league low with the Wizards, Thunder, and Grizzlies. It’s no surprise Bosh can’t wait for the 2010 off-season.

Another common trend is the Top 5 average for most lottery teams is < 7 with only the Suns, Nets, and Raptors breaking the 7 EWA/Top 5. In summary, the lottery teams just did not have enough talent and depth to compete with the playoff teams. Nothing surprising, but again it proves how accurate/useful the EWA statistic is especially once we compare and contrast them with playoff team trends. 

 

EWA Analysis of Playoff Teams

EWA of Playoff Team Chart

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rsVLof1j9H2QvUJ8emfOPUQ&single=true&gid=1&output=html

 

So while the previous section did nothing but show how horrible most of the lottery teams were, looking at the EWA of the playoff teams shows strong trends and the many ways to build a contender. Compared to lottery teams all but one of the 16 playoff teams broke the > 40 EWA total and it should be no surprised that it was the 8th seeded Detroit Pistons that failed to break the 40 EWA benchmark for playoff teams. The per player EWA of playoff teams ranged from 3.33 (Pistons) to 5.49 (Lakers) which proves it is a less reliable marker for separating lottery and playoff teams as their ranges over lap a bit. However, once one looks at EWA/Top 5 you finally see the greatest barometer that separates playoff teams from lottery teams. When you look at the Western Conference and the Big 3 from the East (Cavs, Celtics, and Magic) only the Houston Rockets had EWA Total < 45 and an EWA/Top 5 < 8.00/player. Compare this to lottery teams where only a few teams cracked EWA Total of > 40 and 7.0 EWA/Top 5 and it’s fair to say that if your team has a total EWA > 45 and Top 5 avg of > 8 you are likely to be a playoff team.

The only outliers to the 45/8 rule are the Rockets and the Suns. The Suns won 46 games and were in the playoff chase until the end of the season and would surely be a playoff team in the East. So their absence from the playoffs is a matter of logistics rather than talent. Despite the Rockets poor numbers (only ahead of lowly Detroit amongst playoff contenders) they made the playoffs due to their defense and heart… two attributes which PER/EWA does not correctly account for. Houston is a great outlier because it is THE trailblazing team regarding advanced statistics in scouting and its success is a testament to the work that the stat guys in Houston are churning. They are winning games although common statistics say otherwise. As a Warrior Fan I wish our front office was as forward thinking as Houston’s.

Examining the rosters of the playoff teams also show the variety of ways to build a playoff team. Most of the Western Conference teams had a Top 2 that consisted of an inside/outside combo with only the Rockets having a Top 2 of a PF and C (Scola/Yao). This is in contrast with the Eastern Conference which has more Top 2s consisting of perimeter players, only Orlando and Miami have inside/outside combos of Howard/Lewis and Wade/Beasely. Again, the EWA shows its accuracy as the tried and true basketball idiom of an inside/side attack being the key to a championship looks to be prevalent amongst the Western Conference playoff teams and the eventual NBA Finals competitors. The EWA also shows a one man operation like the Cavs and teams built around 3-4 very good players like the Nuggets and Celtics can also contend for a title. So while EWA has shown that 45 total/8 top 5 is needed to be a strong playoff team there are several ways to get there: the one man show (Cavs), 3-4 All*Star players (Celtics/Nuggets), or having a clear Superstar and a sidekick(s) (Magic/Lakers).

 

Warriors EWA Comparisons

Warriors EWA Comparion Chart

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rsVLof1j9H2QvUJ8emfOPUQ&single=true&gid=5&output=html

 

Comparing the Warriors numbers to the playoff teams, western conference playoff teams, lottery teams, and the league average shows just how unique the make up of the 08-09 Warriors was. Even with all the injuries the Dubs roster is not as bad as the nay-sayers and doom and gloom reporters have been spouting. The Warriors have the overall talent to compete with playoff teams and plenty of depth, but the Achilles heel of the 08-09 Warriors is that there is little difference between their starting 5 and the bench. This isn’t a bad problem to have as the Warriors have legit NBA rotation players, but highlights the fact that the Warriors were doomed to fail once BD took his 14.07 EWA in 07-08 to LA LA Land and Monta Ellis rode a moped to disgrace. Examining the EWA makes it pretty cut and dry where the Warriors need to improve in order to make playoffs in the West by reaching the 45/8 barometers. 

 

 

****If you’re trying to read this in one sitting this is probably a good place to take a quick break or if you didn’t realize how freakin’ long this was- this is a good place to stop****

 

 

What If Monta Didn’t Get Injured?

Many Warrior fans point to the injury of Monta Ellis as the sole reason for the futility of the team, but the number suggest otherwise. The previous analysis has shown that the Warriors Top 5 EWA of 6.0 per player falls significantly short of the 8.0 EWA that every Western Conference playoff team had, except for the Rockets. Again, I believe the Rockets are an anomaly because of their cutting edge statistics which accurately values their players and their defensive abilities.

If the injury never happens and Monta Ellis simply performs at his 07-08 PER of 18.92 for 37 mpg for 82 games, Ellis would have added an EWA of 11.95. This would have been easily #1 on the team but the Top 5 EWA average of Ellis (11.95), Biedrins (7.9), Jackson (6.6), Crawford (5.4), and Maggette (5.1) would still be short at 7.39.  That is a huge improvement from 6.0 but wouldn’t be good enough to compete for playoffs. Just for fun let’s take a look at the 07-08 Warriors.

How good were the Warriors in 07-08? The Top 5 of BD (14.07), Ellis (12.86), Jackson (6.31), Harrington (4.51), and Biedrins (8.69) had an average of a mind numbing 9.29 EWA. You see that BD and Monta were our two best players in 07-08. So losing both during the off-season practically made us a lock for the lottery before any games were ever played.

In summary, Monta would have surely improved on the 29 wins, but the Warriors would not have been a playoff caliber team even with him healthy. There were just too many injuries and frankly the Warriors truly did miss the presence of a motivated and healthy Baron Davis.

 

Looking ahead to 09-10…

So what can we expect for the 09-10 Season? If everyone comes back at full strength and remains healthy, WITHOUT any moves I expect the Warriors to significantly improve and compete for a playoff spot based on the projected EWA of the following rotation.

 

Projected EWA of Warriors

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rVDpWrm8OSHQ4ol-b_vbfAw&single=true&gid=2&output=html

 

The Projected 09-10 lineup features Ellis, Jackson, Azubukie, Randolph, and Biedrins as the starting 5 and Watson, Morrow, Magette, and Turiaf of the bench as regular rotation players. Looking at that 9 man rotation leaves out Crawford, Belinelli, Wright, Davidson, and the #7 pick. The projected EWA of that team is 55.13 Total and 8.322 for the Top 5 (Magette as 6th man has a higher EWA than starter Azubukie). That puts them right over the 45/8 benchmark we talked about earlier. The good news is the Warriors will probably improve on those EWA projections due to the natural development made by the young players in the starting line up: Ellis, Azubukie, Randolph, and Biedrins and the contributions of the players not in the regular rotation. The Warriors also have a projected Top 2 of Ellis/Biedrins which follows the inside/outside game that dominates the Western Conference and the distribution of EWA amongst the team is similar to that of the 08-09 Nuggets and Jazz with 2 players over or near 10 EWA surrounded by players in the 4-6 EWA range.   

This maybe an outlandish prediction to most GSOMers, but even after the season ended and before I did this study of EWA, I truly believed that the Warriors are much closer to playoff contention than being doomed for the lottery. The 07-08 team that won 48 games was front loaded but suffered from poor bench production. The 08-09 Woe-rriors suffered from injury and missed BD, but were able to discover and develop several legit NBA rotation players. Next season, the Warriors hopefully will get back 3 healthy players from the 07-08 (Ellis, Jackson, and Biedrins) AND reap the benefits of the 08-09 campaign with battle tested, young NBA players with tons of room to improve in Azubukie, Randolph, Morrow, and Watson. During their brief stints on the court this season, Ellis proved he can become what he once was and Randolph flashed superstar potential.  

While many will write the Warriors off, I have hopes that the 09-10 Warriors will become a young competitive team that features a strong starting line up led by Ellis and Biedrins supported by a bench that would rival anyone in the league.

 

So what about Chris Bosh? Amare? Boozer? AK-47? Andre Miller?

Projected EWA Chart

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rVDpWrm8OSHQ4ol-b_vbfAw&single=true&gid=2&output=html

 

Using EWA I wanted to see what would happen if the Warriors were able to land their next Holy Grail. I didn’t go into the trouble of making a deal work financially (too complicated with Ellis/Biedrins still BYC) but I just wanted to see the impact on the roster if we traded a combo of Ellis/Randolph/Biedrins for Bosh (the principal pieces we heard reports of at the deadline).

In the 3 combos that I tested a Ellis/Biedrins trade for Bosh would actually make the Warriors WORSE compared to keeping the team intact. The reason is that Crawford can’t hold a candle to a healthy Ellis production wise and that gap is larger than the upgrade from Biedrins to Chris Bosh. The other downside to this trade is that while Bosh and Biedrins have reached their potential peaks (their PERs have remained consistent the past few years), I feel Monta Ellis still has room for improvement and the tools to become 28-30 ppg scorer. We also risk Bosh bolting after a year if he refuses a sign and trade and I’m not sure how Bosh and Randolph would play together as they are both so similar.

The other two combos of Ellis or Biedrins + Randolph will improve the Warriors in 09-10 for sure and almost make them a lock for Playoffs but would they win a championship? Despite the gaudy EWA Totals and Top 5 average that would put them right behind the 08-09 Cavs and Lakers, when you stop looking at statistics and see how the pieces fit it doesn’t really look like Championship material. Do you really see a big man rotation of Bosh, Turiaf, and Wright contending for a title if we trade Biedrins and Randolph for Bosh? Is Crawford/Watson a Championship caliber PG rotation if we send Ellis and Randolph packing? The numbers suggest either trade would make the Warriors elite, but I just can’t see it being plausible given the weakness of the 1 or 5 spots. Another big factor is that Randolph looks to be a young Chris Bosh in the making. In fact Randolph had a better rookie year PER than Chris Bosh (16.94 vs. 15.24). They are intriguing trades and could potentially be worth the gamble if the team meshes like the numbers suggests, but I feel given time to mature Ellis, Randolph, and Biedrins can take us further than Bosh could on his own.

As for Amare last season his PER and EWA were less than Bosh’s so his impact would be similar to Bosh if we trade for him. The one reason why Amare may be worth the risk is he has had a PER high of 27.29 in 07-08 compared to Bosh who has hovered around 23, with a high of 24.23 in 07-08. That 07-08 season resulted in an EWA of 22.23 which would put him in the Top 3 of all players, but that potential comes with some character concerns and no defense. Ditto for Boozer who has PERs inferior to Bosh and Amare.

Regarding the Maggette for Ak-47 rumors I would do that trade in a heart beat. Last season AK-47 had a EWA of 5.5 compared to Maggette’s 5.1 and it also don’t account for the defensive improvement AK-47 would bring. Would the Warriors be championship material? No, but they would compete for playoffs.

What about Andre Miller? I don’t know how we would sign him but if we added him to our roster we’d probably be looking at a Chauncey Billups type of impact as he had an EWA of 11.4 last season (greater than Billups actually) and would give the starting lineup it’s 3rd double digit EWA player along with Ellis at SG and Biedrins at C. If we do get him it would have to be through sign and trade and as long as we don’t part with Ellis, Biedrins, and Randolph I’d try and make it happen for a short term fix. A projected starting 5 of Miller, Ellis, Jackson, Randolph, and Biedrins would have a Top 5 EWA of 8.96 if Miller played 30 minutes a game with the same PER as last season. Again that would put us over the 45/8 bench mark.

 

So how should the Warriors handle the draft – BPA or Need?

Compiling all of the EWAs has shown that there are many ways to build a title contending team. We have seen teams like the Celtics and Nuggets who have 3 very good players be successful. This is a good thing for the Warriors as a team without a superstar they can continue to build around Ellis, Biedrins, and Randolph. However, you can’t help but notice teams like the Cavs, Hornets, Magic, and Heat which are built around one super stud that each team drafted.

The only thing separating the Cavs from the Kings is LBJ’s EWA of 32.30, which is more than the entire Kings’ roster and in fact more than the rest of his teammates combined. We saw the impact of D-Wade on the Heat and if you look at the Hornets it’s basically CP3 and West on that team with a bunch of scrubs. While one player won’t guarantee success (see Bosh in Toronto), it’s easier and faster to build a Championship level team around 1 superstar player than it is to compile 3 very good players a la Denver and Boston. In fact only a handful of playoff teams are led in EWA by a player that was not drafted by that team – Denver w/ Billups, Atlanta w/ Johnson, and Detroit w/ Hamilton. Meaning 13 out of 16 playoff teams are built around and led by players they drafted.

Given the fact that one player can make such a large impact and that these players can only be found through the draft it should be a given that you ALWAYS draft BPA over need. When you play it safe you get Todd Fuller, Adonal Foyle, and Joe Smith. Swing for the fences and well as Warriors fans we know all too well what happens. You may strike out more often, but when you do the payoff changes the course of the franchise.

 

Conclusion

The Warriors are a team in transition from the highly successful We Believe Era to the Young Warriors. The team has talent and the EWA analysis supports that claim, but the 08-09 season was not a smooth transition year for the club due to Mopedgate and the overall health of the roster. However, Warrior fans if you believe in EWA like I do we should jump right back into the playoff chase in 09-10. The Spurs and Mavs are only getting older, Utah could lose Boozer, the Suns have Steve Kerr as GM and Sarver as owner, and the Hornets need to give away talent in order to stay financially solvent. The west is competitive, but unlike other teams the Warriors have solid young talent that looks to be ready to compete next season.

The Warriors could make a move for Bosh but I personally think we’d be giving up too much for him as Ellis, Biedrins, and Randolph are young players with great futures ahead of them. I think Biedrins has maxed out ability wise, but I think Ellis can become an elite scorer (28-30 ppg) and the sky is the limit for Anthony Randolph. If we can swing a deal without including any of these players (0.00001% chance of that happening) then bring in Bosh and an NBA title soon after. However, more realistic moves such as AK-47 for Maggette and/or acquiring Andre Miller would improve the Warriors in the short term and wouldn’t force us to mortgage our future. The Warriors also shouldn’t hesitate to trade players from the wing positions if it means acquiring a stud starter.

With the #7 pick the Warriors shouldn’t focus on drafting a PG to start next to Monta Ellis, but they should focus on drafting the best player available even if it is a under-sized PG or another wingman. Superstar players rarely change teams or can be had in trades so the draft is the only chance teams have at getting a stud player. You can’t skip that opportunity.

So Warriors fans you can stop asking all those questions. Thanks to EWA we know what could have been, what will be, and what we should do. Now relax and enjoy the wait until opening night.

Lastly, I’d like to thank you all and commend you guys for making it to the end. It’s a long read but hopefully you enjoyed it and found it as informative as I did in researching and writing the article. If you did, please take a second and rec this post! Thanks.

 

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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u look way too into that

and its much easier to come off the bench for 8 minutes and score 5 points a game then it is to play a full game and socre 20, but according to i guess “EWA” that guy who comes off the bench and score 5 should score 30 per game, which is why its not really true, same with rebounds and every stat

by bizz 192 on Jun 5, 2009 10:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Umm that's why EWA is more useful than PER...

It accounts for the total minutes a player plays.

Here’s the formula for EWA…

VA Value Added is the estimated number of points a player adds to a team’s season total above what a “replacement player” (for instance, the 12th man on the roster) would produce. Value Added = ([Minutes * (PER – PRL)] / 67). PRL (Position Replacement Level) = 11.5 for power forwards, 11.0 for point guards, 10.6 for centers, 10.5 for shooting guards and small forwards

Apparently you didn’t read the explanation of EWA.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 5, 2009 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

false.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 6, 2009 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

??? Explain please?

Not sure what is false about my statement?

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

he said false to blitz

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawk on Jun 6, 2009 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, it was quicker than saying that just about everything he/she pointed out was incorrect. FLAxwless gave a very nice explaination of why one thing in that statement was not the case; i made a sweeping remark about the rest.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 6, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 6, 2009 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

its much easier to come off the bench for 8 minutes and score 5 points a game then it is to play a full game and socre 20

It’s much easier to say things that aren’t true than it is to do some actual research and crunch the numbers.

FLAxWless: very, very impressive work, but before examining the formula I’m inclined to be skeptical of any metric that rates Craw and Jack our 2nd and 3rd best players. I’m also inclined to be skeptical of the predictive value of any metric that puts more weight in counting numbers than in rate numbers. I still haven’t seen one credible study that shows that the per minute numbers of non-regular players are inflated (assuming a reasonably large sample size). I’ve learned to loathe PER, but not because it extrapolates per minute numbers. Personally, I don’t find it that hard to believe that Brandan Wright is the 43rd “best” player in the NBA.

Can you (or jae) explain the most important differences between EWA and Dave Berri’s Wins Produced?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 6, 2009 5:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if we’re going by total numbers, it’s a decent way to show how players performed in the past and say “player x did the most for this team”, but would completely miss things like “if we sat player x for player y, we’d be better”. in a sense, it’s easy to say that whoever was playing the most minutes were the guys doing the most for the team, but that is all about opportunity and doesn’t predict much if there were minutes shakeups.

at least that’s my understanding of this metric and i don’t expect it to have answered your question, sleepy. i just was throwing in my two cents and would be interested to hear someone with a better understanding contribute.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 6, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

EWA can tell you what happens "if you sat player x for player y, we'd be better"

If you mess around with the minutes allocation you’d get different numbers. In the projected numbers I tried to get a regular rotation based on what Nellie likes to do.

Also Biedrins was our #1 player based on EWA but he played roughly 500 less minutes than Jackson and 200 less than Crawford so it’s not purely based on who played more although minutes played does have an effect.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i realized that after i wrote it, but at a cursory glance that’s the main difference between rate numbers and total numbers. you can turn total numbers into rate numbers, but if you just look at totals, crawford is going to look much better than he actually is because he’s out on the court so much.

also, does EWA account for defense at all (outside of blocks/steals/rebounds/etc)? i know you said it was a weakness, but i wasn’t sure if there was some measure for accounting for defense that wasn’t all that effective or if there was nothing there at all.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 6, 2009 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hard to say exactly because it's based on PER...

I wish I could say how accurately it accounts for defense, but John Hollinger doesn’t disclose the formula for PER.

On “Hollinger Statistics” he does list FG%, FT%, True Shooting %, Reb/40, Pts/40, ast/40, assist ratio, rebound rate, and usage rate. So I assume it uses those statistics in the calculation of PER. It doesn’t list blks and stls so either he uses the totals or averages or he doesn’t use them at all.

Only Hollinger could tell us.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Troy Murphy isn't the #1 PF?!

2008-2009 Wins Produced

It’s hard to directly compare the two since Hollinger doesn’t give up the formula for PER, but they go about it about it almost the same way just using different constants. Maybe jae has a better explanation.

Again, that’s why I’m such a big fan of EWA is b/c it doesn’t produce a list like Berri’s where Troy Murphy is the #1 PF

I think the proper mindset for EWA is not to think of Crawford or Jax being our 2nd or 3rd best players (that’s what PER would be better for), but they are the 2nd and 3rd most responsible for most of our wins (based PER and total minutes).

If you put it that way I don’t think it’s hard to debate that during the 08-09 season Jackson and Crawford were most responsible for our wins.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ok. Well if all this deduces is who was “responsible” for most of our wins, than that doesn’t really tell you anything that you can’t observe by watching the games. So basically, who takes the most shots and scores the most points is the person that is most “responsible” for a win? Cause that is what Craw and Jack do, take the most shots and score the most points, albeit inefficiently. So hypothetically, lets say we made Randolph take every shot for us in an entire game. He is going to be rated our #1 reason for winning games, correct? I just don’t get what this tells us about the value of the player.

by randolphforpresident on Jun 6, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously though… Any rating system that has Crawford and Jack as our 2nd and 3rd best players this past year is just flawed. Yes, they got the most minutes and took the most shots. But they were the most inefficient scoring and turnover prone players on the team. From what I’ve seen both PER and your EWA don’t penalize players enough for shooting inefficiently (~40%) or for having a high assist/turnover ratio. While they may get penalized, their minutes (at around 40 a game) buff their other stats (points/assists/rebounds) to the point that it doesn’t really matter.

by randolphforpresident on Jun 6, 2009 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So who was better than Jack and Crawford?

Serious questions… considering the amount of games played who was more responsible than Biedrins, Jackson, and Crawford in the 08-09 season?

I can’t think of any Warrior who was more valuable than those guys. Again, they may not be our 2nd and 3rd best players but that’s what happened in the 08-09 season due to injuries. I agree with you that Jackson and Crawford shouldn’t be our 2 and 3 and really that’s why we only won 29 games compared to 48 the previous season. That’s the whole point.

We were screwed b/c Monta got injured, BD left, and Biedrins, Jackson, and Crawford were our #1, #2, and #3. During the 07-08 season when we won 48 games Jackson have roughly the same EWA but he was #3 on our team behind BD and Ellis.

So the fact that the Top 3 is what it is shows exactly why we won only 29 games, not that Jackson and Crawford are our best players.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can you (or jae) explain the most important differences between EWA and Dave Berri’s Wins Produced?

I suspect I understand WP as well as anyone, including its strengths and weaknesses. I do not know the actual details of how EWA is computed, but if it is PER-based, I suspect it suffers from the same fault that over-rewards some high volume low efficiency shooters. WP tracks reasonably well from season to season and tends to be reasonably good at indicating what would happen if player X got player Y’s minutes as a result. I do not know if the same is true of EWA. If it isn’t, then it’s not as useful in terms of evaluating decisions for the future.

What appears strange to me is that the “Estimated Wins Added” for all these teams was significantly higher than the teams’ actual wins. This is not true of Wins Produced. If it’s truly estimating wins, the totals should be more in line with a team’s actual wins for me to have much faith that it’s telling me something. Simply showing that it puts players popularly regarded as the best as the best isn’t an overly strong endorsement. Science need not agree with popular opinion to be true.

by jae on Jun 6, 2009 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's b/c it wasn't meant to correspond to team wins..

EWA is meant to gauge the value of the player individually. Hollinger did not set out to make EWA correspond to the team wins of each squad.

If you look at the formula EWA is a comparison of what each player would be worth compared to a replacement player or the 12th man on the bench based on PER.

So LBJ is worth 32 more wins than the baseline SF. SJAX was worth 6.6 more than a replacement player.

That’s reason why I feel the EWA is so accurate. It “estimates” a players value independently from the rest of his team. The fact that when you compile teams’ EWA and it produces such pronounced trends between lottery teams and playoff teams suggests that it is able to do so correctly.

Basically, Berri is working backwards from team wins to find out what each player contributed. This is one of the downsides of Berri’s Wins Produced b/c with statistics you can manipulate numbers to make it say anything you want. Meaning Berri had the advantage of being able to tweak his formula until the Wins Produced equal team wins.

Contrast that with Hollinger whose Estimated Wins Added is meant as an individual assessment of EACH PLAYER. He didn’t pigeon hole himself into make it directly correlate to wins, but rather accurately assess the worth of a single player. So he’s not going to fudge with the formula until his EWA matches the teams actual win total. Only when I compiled it by teams did I notice the pure trends that existed amongst the teams.

Because Hollinger’s intentions for EWA was to rate the player individually and not tied to the team, it makes these team trends more pure/unbiased compared to Berri’s Wins Produced.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Saying that someone is worth x wins over a replacement doesn’t make it so. It may be, it may not be, but I have nothing to gauge the accuracy of the measure. I’m not sure what evidence you are using to say that it “rather accurately assesses the worth of a single player”. How is the accuracy measured, and against what? I haven’t heard anything but the

I’m curious what you mean by Berri being able to ‘tweak’ his formula until the wins produced equals the actual wins. Where exactly do you see this “tweaking” of ‘fudging’. Given that the values were derived from a regression, how does one ‘tweak’ it. (Please do not point towards the Rosebaum paper on the web. I am familiar with it and find his use of statistics to be rather improper in his assignment of residuals in his comparisons. It was not at all clear that he understood how the wins produced formula actually arrived at the numbers.)

I’m curious what logic drives you to the conclusion that Hollinger’s measure is somehow purer or “unbiased.” What brings about this statement? On what evidence are you basing this?

by jae on Jun 6, 2009 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I understand correctly...

Wins Produced tries to see what fraction of the teams wins each player is responsible for. So say if each player is worth roughly 50% of their teams production they would have different Wins Produced based on the win total of the team.

On the other hand EWA is not confined to the number of wins a player’s team gets. Instead it is attempts to gauge a players value independently of team success. So players who are both equal value will have the same EWA regardless of the teams final total.
 
In the end you can debate the merits or accuracy of EWA. I’m just reporting the trends I have found in EWA amongst rosters. I’m not out to make the Warriors look better, etc. Just reporting what I found.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You understand it incorrectly. Wins produced used regression to look at the expected change in win probability based on the accumulation of statistics over multiple seasons for all teams. Each stat (e.g. FGA, PTS, AS, etc.) was evaluate to see how the isolated change affected the probability of victory for a team. It is an efficiency estimate. The estimate of team record based on the sum of the parts. It does not have to match the number of wins the team actually got, but it winds up being very, very close.

WP isn’t in any way confined by the number of wins the team gets, but being an estimate that is close to what the team actually got is a strength. Deviating from this and assigning numbers that allude to “wins” without actually relating to wins is not the marks of a good model.

You did not address the most important questions. You stated that Hollinger’s EWA was unbiased. You haven’t explained why this is, other than by comparing it to a false perception of WP. More importantly though, you made the claim that it “ather accurately assesses the worth of a single player.” How are you assessing that it is “rather accurate” other than by saying it is and leaving it at that? How is it actually gauging player value? Why is the formula meaningful if it can be so radically far off in saying that the Warriors were actually not so bad as players, yet in reality the team stunk? Seriously. I’d like to know, else it’s just putting numbers on a popularity contest.

I am trying to debate the merits of EWA, but without being able to see how it is derived, and without seeing the numbers tested against real results, I have nothing to base any conclusion about it on, other than that you say it’s accurate. Given that it rated the Warriors as good, when they were not good, I would say that this is evidence that it is NOT rather accurate. It appears to be lacking as a useful tool. Why do you say otherwise?

by jae on Jun 6, 2009 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It never said the Warriors were good in 08-09.

1) I can’t debate the EWA formula as we don’t know how PER is calculated and how exactly Hollinger came up with the player replacement levels. So you can ask Hollinger those questions.

However, when I look at the EWA list compared to Berri’s… Hollinger’s list looks more accurate to me than Berri’s.

Hollinger Top 5
1. LBJ – 32.30
2. Wade – 30.3
3. Paul – 28.4
4. Howard – 20.8
5. Bryant – 20.6

Berri’s Top 5
1. Paul – 29.4
2. LBJ – 27. 1
3. Howard – 24.6
4. Kidd – 21.0
5. Murphy – 17.0

So how can I say Hollinger’s is more accurate? Let the Top 5 for each speak for itself. I wish I knew Hollinger’s formula for all the reasons you mentioned, but I believe in the results.

2) If you could complete a similar study using Wins Produced I’d love to see the results. Again, I just compiled the data from EWA and the trends appeared naturally. I didn’t fudge with the numbers or compile them with an agenda. I’m just reporting the trends I saw.

3) If you are under the impression that the 08-09 Warriors were good from my writing than either I did a poor job of explaining what I found or you’re not understanding it correctly.

So let me break it down…

Total EWA = 48.3 (7th) – Just means they have a lot of talented players on their roster. 15/16 playoff teams had total EWA > 40. 11/14 Lottery teams had EWA < 40.
 
Per Player EWA = 4.03 (14th) – Hard to establish any real trends as the ranges overlap for lottery and playoff teams.

Top 5 EWA = 6.0 (26th) – Warriors have a weak starting line up that did not match up with playoff teams. 7/8 Western Conference playoff teams Top 5 EWA > 8. Of the lottery teams on the Suns had Top 5 EWA > 8.

The numbers suggests the Warriors have a deep team of equal talents, but do not have any true difference makers shown in the low Top 5 average. I think that’s how any Warrior fan would describe the team…. a deep team, but missing a super star.

So I don’t know how those numbers suggest that the Warriors are any good? I never made that assertion. Again, the numbers seem to support observations of the Warriors last season (deep team, but lacking star power) and other teams.

Before you talk about how EWA is not useful maybe you should understand the stance that the I am making in the article. I never said the 08-09 Warriors were good and in fact the EWA shows why they were so bad… weak starting line up.

Because of all of that… EWA seems rather accurate than any other statistical measure I have come across.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also before you continue...

I do realize the accuracy I am using is subjective.

Again, any metric that has Troy Murphy as the 5th player overall is useless to me.

If that’s what your debating regarding accuracy than we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I wish we could know every detail of Hollinger’s formula but we don’t. With that said the results of EWA aligns more with subjective observations than that of Wins Produced.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also so useful links regarding PER and EWA

PER on Trial

Explaining VA and EWA

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couple things

First of all, Berri’s formulas did not rate Murphy the fifth the best player overall: by WP he was 7th (after the Big 4 + KIdd and Rondo) and by WP48 he was 8th (after the Big 4 + Kidd, Rondo, Camby). Not a huge difference, but stretching the truth to support one’s case, even slightly, is one of the hallmarks of a foolish argument.

More importantly, you lost a lot of credibility with this:

However, when I look at the EWA list compared to Berri’s… Hollinger’s list looks more accurate to me than Berri’s.

Dude. Set aside for a moment WP, which in the end has absolutely no bearing on EWA. (You can find some thoughts on the flaws of WP and what jae calls “the Troy Murphy conundrum” here and here). Your defense of EWA, after all your cyber-ink spilled and time wasted, comes down to the fact that it looks like it correlates better than another system to a Top 5 player ranking that you already believed? Incredibly weak sauce.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 7, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

Wow, new level of weird. Even when I’m up way later than I should be we are thinking the same thing. BTW are you on the east coast at the moment? Up early, or late?

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 7, 2009 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

EST. I woke up to take a leak and my glowing laptop beckoned. I’m going back to bed now. Hold down the fort…

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 7, 2009 2:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are correct...

I didn’t look past the top 2 in each position. Not trying to fudge with numbers… just an oversight.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 7, 2009 3:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So let's flip this around?

What’s the difference between EWA and WP?

Why is EWA so flawed but WP is more credible? Because we don’t know the formula for PER?

I can live without knowing the exact formula for PER and I’ll put my trust that Hollinger created the statistic with the same intent and integrity Berri created WP.

In the end we have two sets of objective data/results. We have Hollinger’s EWA and Berri’s WP.

Given the results produced by both of these OBJECTIVE MEASURES… I think most would agree that EWA produces a more accurate list than Berri’s.

The formula that ranks Murphy at 53 (#11 PF) seems much more accurate to me than the formula that ranks Murphy at 7 (#1 PF).

Again, if you give Hollinger the benefit of the doubt and trust the credibility of his statistical analysis I don’t think there’s any question which list is more accurate.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 7, 2009 3:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Again, any metric that has Troy Murphy as the 5th player overall is useless to me.

No metric is perfect, but from what I’ve seen jae write before Murphy is kind of the poster child for the flaws in WP. He’s a guy who rebound very well, and scores efficiently (which are both heavily rewarded due to their high correlation with winning basketball games) but plays absolutely zero defense which is hard to measure with numbers, thus isn’t represented in his WP numbers. Same thing with Kidd. He rebounds incredibly well for his position, but his defense has dropped off a bit. He probably shouldn’t be up that high, but he did help his team more than conventional wisdom would let on (same thing with Murphy actually, he still gets a bum rap for being attached to Dunleavy’s hip in the mind of GSW fans).

I haven’t had the time to go through it, but jae has posted some really good links that explain the whole process behind WP. I think that level of transparency is a little reassuring.

With that said the results of EWA aligns more with subjective observations than that of Wins Produced.

Shouldn’t the judge of a good metric be it’s predictive ability and not the fact that it aligns with subjective observation (if this is all you were looking for why use metrics at all, just observe subjectively).

I guess we can look at the records of the teams next season and see how EWA did. I’m not all that optimistic.

BTW, great FanPost, I can tell you put a lot of work in this.

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 7, 2009 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The only difference is the transperency of WP...

If Hollinger ever chose to release the formula to PER than all the answers would be solved.

However, Hollinger does give us the formula for EWA and it is a logical and simple formula.

Also, just because I feel EWA is more accurate does not mean that Hollinger created a statistic to align with my subjective observations.

Both WP and EWA are attempts to objectively measure a players value. They were formulated independent of my subjective opinion.

Can I tell you how EWA is accurate? No.. b/c only Hollinger knows the formula to PER. However, I will give Hollinger the benefit of the doubt in regards to his statistical analysis and integrity and I believe that EWA was formulated on the same premise as WP.

I think Jae is speaking from a purely statistical viewpoint when it comes to challenging my assertions of accuracy, but only Hollinger can answer those questions. When I speak of the “accuracy” of EWA I am speaking from MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE after seeing EWA align with the general subjective rankings.

Basically if EWA/PER were as transparent as WP wouldn’t you agree that EWA produces a much more accurate list?

Again with the article I compiled OBJECTIVE DATA and tried to make a sense of the trends that I saw. Just because I insert my subjective opinion should not discredit the OBJECTIVE data and trends compiled.

 

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by FLAxwless on Jun 7, 2009 3:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, just because I feel EWA is more accurate does not mean that Hollinger created a statistic to align with my subjective observations.

Hollinger himself has written in support of PER that it matches well with popular opinion. This is a poor test in science unless popular opinion is unflawed in producing winning basketball.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Basically if EWA/PER were as transparent as WP wouldn’t you agree that EWA produces a much more accurate list?

The transparency prevents me from testing it myself (something I’m prone to do). Transparency doesn’t address the issue of accuracy though. This can only be judged by matching it against real predictions.

Measuring popcorn sales is objective as well. Does this mean it relates to the quality of the team? Just because a method is objective doesn’t make the product of the formula useful. I need to see some reason why the metric is useful at rating players vs some meaningful measure (and the one I consider meaningful here is actual victories) for me to believe it holds value.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

From Basketball-Reference.com
Calculating PER

The Player Efficiency Rating (PER) is a per-minute rating developed by ESPN.com columnist John Hollinger. In John’s words, “The PER sums up all a player’s positive accomplishments, subtracts the negative accomplishments, and returns a per-minute rating of a player’s performance.” It appears from his books that John’s database only goes back to the 1988-89 season. I decided to expand on John’s work and calculate PER for all players since minutes played were first recorded (1951-52).

All calculations begin with what I am calling unadjusted PER (uPER). The formula is:

uPER = (1 / MP) *
     [ 3P
     + (2/3) * AST
     + (2 – factor * (team_AST / team_FG)) * FG
     + (FT *0.5 * (1 + (1 – (team_AST / team_FG)) + (2/3) * (team_AST / team_FG)))
     - VOP * TOV
     - VOP * DRB% * (FGA – FG)
     - VOP * 0.44 * (0.44 + (0.56 * DRB%)) * (FTA – FT)
     + VOP * (1 – DRB%) * (TRB – ORB)
     + VOP * DRB% * ORB
     + VOP * STL
     + VOP * DRB% * BLK
     - PF * ((lg_FT / lg_PF) – 0.44 * (lg_FTA / lg_PF) * VOP) ]
Most of the terms in the formula above should be clear, but let me define the less obvious ones:

factor = (2 / 3) – (0.5 * (lg_AST / lg_FG)) / (2 * (lg_FG / lg_FT))
VOP = lg_PTS / (lg_FGA – lg_ORB + lg_TOV + 0.44 * lg_FTA)
DRB% = (lg_TRB – lg_ORB) / lg_TRB
I am not going to go into details about what each component of the PER is measuring; that’s why John writes and sells books.

Problems arise for seasons prior to 1979-80:

1979-80 — debut of 3-point shot in NBA
1977-78 — player turnovers first recorded in NBA
1973-74 — player offensive rebounds, steals, and blocked shots first recorded in NBA
The calcuation of uPER obviously depends on these statsitics, so here are my solutions for years when the data are missing:

Zero out three-point field goals, turnovers, blocked shots, and steals.
Set the league value of possession (VOP) equal to 1.
Set the defensive rebound percentage (DRB%) equal to 0.7.
Set player offensive rebounds (ORB) equal to 0.3 * TRB.
Some of these solutions may not be elegant, but I think they are reasonable. After uPER is calculated, an adjustment must be made for the team’s pace. The pace adjustment is:

pace adjustment = lg_Pace / team_Pace
League and team pace factors cannot be computed for seasons prior to 1973-74, so I estimate the above using:

estimated pace adjustment = 2 * lg_PPG / (team_PPG + opp_PPG)
To give you an idea of the accuracy of these estimates, here are the actual pace adjustments and the estimated pace adjustments for teams from the Eastern Conference in 2002-03:

Tm Act Est

ATL 1.00 0.99
BOS 1.00 1.02
CHI 0.97 0.98
CLE 0.97 0.99
DET 1.05 1.06
IND 0.99 1.00
MIA 1.04 1.08
MIL 1.01 0.96
NJN 0.99 1.03
NOH 1.01 1.02
NYK 1.00 0.98
ORL 0.98 0.97
PHI 1.00 0.99
TOR 1.01 1.01
WAS 1.03 1.03
For all seasons where actual pace adjustments can be computed, the root mean square error of the estimates is 0.01967.

Now the pace adjustment is made to uPER (I will call this aPER):

aPER = (pace adjustment) * uPER
The final step is to standardize aPER. First, calculate league average aPER (lg_aPER) using player minutes played as the weights. Then, do the following:

PER = aPER * (15 / lg_aPER)
The step above sets the league average to 15 for all seasons.

Those are the gory details. If you have any comments or questions, please send me some feedback.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/per.html

I’m not sure if this is the exact formula that Hollinger uses but the end results are the same (or at least I’ve never noticed any differences).

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 7, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shouldn’t the judge of a good metric be it’s predictive ability and not the fact that it aligns with subjective observation (if this is all you were looking for why use metrics at all, just observe subjectively).

Yes. Testing something by its agreement with your preconceived notions only provides the opportunity to put a number on your prejudices, regardless of their veracity.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So how can I say Hollinger’s is more accurate? Let the Top 5 for each speak for itself. I wish I knew Hollinger’s formula for all the reasons you mentioned, but I believe in the results.

Recapitulating popular opinion is not a ringing endorsement of scientific theory.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We'll just have to wait and see....

Again you mention just b/c Hollinger says it matches up with popular opinion AFTER the fact that he calculates PER/EWA doesn’t mean he didn’t come to those numbers using an objective measure.

Bottomline though for you is the only way for EWA to be useful is if the EWA of each team added up to team wins like WP (which gets it close, but not exact). So what if I wrote the paper using Value Added (would produce the same results just using a bigger number) that takes PER, total minutes played, and replacement value into consideration. Where it is another metric to sum up a player’s value in one number similar to PER, Roland Ratings, Etc?

Would that alleviate your concerns? It seems to me you’re so hung up on the fact that it’s called “Estimated Wins Added” and discount it’s ability to articulate a player’s impact on the season.

If you want to throw away a possibly helpful/accurate statistic b/c it does not set out to calculate exactly what you desire (in this case add up to wins) then that’s your prerogative. I think that it’s limiting yourself, but that’s your choice.

Never once in my paper or did Hollinger himself ever say EWA totals for teams would directly correlate to team Wins. It’s just meant to quantify the actual impact of a player over the season by factoring a Per Minute Efficiency Rating and Actual minutes played.

That it was able to produce the trends discovered when team rosters were compiled show that EWA is in the right track. The final total may not match the team’s actual wins, but the trends across the playoff and lottery teams are real and are there.

So you can knock EWA for not adding up to total wins, but that’s like knocking Thomas Edison for inventing the incandescent light bulb when you really want him to invent a spaceship. That’s not what he set out to do, so why knock him because it’s labeled EWA?

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by FLAxwless on Jun 7, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do not know what Hollinger’s logic was in creating it. I DO know that you can increase PER by taking more shots if you make a rather low rate, a rate significantly lower than the leauge average and a rate that does not correlate with winning games. This is because he does not include the opportunity cost of each possession and adds points but only subtracts for missed shots, rather than all shots. This means that if you hit 39% of your shots, your PER increases if you shoot more, even though this is absolutely detrimental. This is an absolute knock on it as a single number to sum up a player’s contribution if you believe that the contribution of a player should help his team win, since there is a clear way to rather dramatically raise PER while lowering your team’s chances of winning. Whatever logic he used has a significant, demonstrable flaw accordingly.

That’s a knock on PER, but you seem to be confusing “knocking” EWA with having no reason to believe that it’s worthwhile. It is an empirical exercise: How well does the estimated wins correspond to actual wins? If the answer is that it correlates very well (even if the numbers aren’t the same), then it’s useful. If it doesn’t, then it is not useful. I have not seen anything other than your assertion that it’s ‘very accurate’, which you have not supported beyond saying it’s ‘very accurate’.

There are many ways to sum something up in one number, but so what? What is the VALUE of that number if it doesn’t relate, in some way, to the ability to win games? If it doesn’t correlate with team wins, then what the hell is measuring? How can the sum of the “impact” of the individuals be so far off the actual performance of the team?

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So...

Just because EWA doesn’t correlate to team wins only makes it not useful to you.

Again as for accuracy… I am basing it not on any mathematical evidence (ask Hollinger) but by comparing and contrasting the results of Wins Produced and EWA. MY OPINION is that the results of EWA is much more accurate than WP. No way is Troy Murphy and Jason Kidd Top 7 players. I don’t care how mathematically sound you say WP is, but if it goes against common basketball wisdom so egregiously than it is worthless or needs to be tweak.

Sorry but the number does have a value… it’s just not the exact value you want. Just because it’s called Estimated Wins Added you feel it has to correlate to team wins when it is actually calculating the number of wins a player brings above the replacement player, not the percentage of teams wins a player is responsible for. BIG DIFFERENCE.

You may have an individual issue with PER or EWA, but I think it’s foolish to ignore the trends that were described in the post.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 7, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Going against “common wisdom” is not a problem for me. “Common wisdom” can be, and in many cases is wrong.

I don’t care that the actual number of wins of EWA doesn’t match, but the relative rankings should at least be close. What does a measure that has the Warriors ranking as possessing more “expected wins” than the Spurs, Rockets, Hornets, Celtics and Magic actually tell us? We have an objective measure of the success of a team: winning games. The teams’ records are not wrong. They are the actual wins and losses. This is a far more absolute one than the “common basketball wisdom” (an opinion) about Troy Murphy (which could be wrong). If a measure puts the Warriors as better than 15 teams that won more games, it is not measuring something related to team success. I am at a loss as to what value this metric has if having players with higher “expected wins added” doesn’t relate to having a better team, but it doesn’t. If it rates players highly, but having highly rated players doesn’t mean a better team, what does it mean and why should we care?

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you actually read and look at the charts?
I don’t care that the actual number of wins of EWA doesn’t match, but the relative rankings should at least be close.

Why should they? Again, you’re making EWA something it isn’t set out to measure.

How many times do I have to explain… EWA is NOT measuring team success.

EWA is measuring a player’s estimated wins against a replacement player.

It’s an INDIVIDUAL STATISTIC, not one that will or set out to directly correlate to team wins.

What it is attempting to explain is what is better? A PG with a PER of 21 who plays 30 mpg for 60 games or a C with a PER of 17 who plays 33 minutes a game for 82 games.

That’s what it is attempting to quantify, not teams wins.

What does a measure that has the Warriors ranking as possessing more "expected wins" than the Spurs, Rockets, Hornets, Celtics and Magic actually tell us?

You can’t get anything from Total EWA values b/c like you said 1) it doesn’t correlate directly to wins (it’s not trying to) 2) Warriors are ranked 7th (meaning bad teams don’t look bad in Total EWA).

While you can’t discern anything from the Total EWA value there were some CLEAR TRENDS THAT EMERGED…playoff teams generally have a Total EWA > 40 (45 – for West) and Lottery Teams have an EWA < 30.

That is valuable information.

If it rates players highly, but having highly rated players doesn’t mean a better team, what does it mean and why should we care?

Higher rated players does mean you’ll have a better team. You just need to have those higher rated players in your Top 5. Again look at the trends… Playoff Teams had a EWA/Top 5 of > 8 per player and most Lottery Team had a EWA/ Top 5 of < 7.

So by looking at EWA when I (not Hollinger) complied it by team I found that an EWA of Total of 45 and Top 5 > 8 EWA /player were bench marks for playoff teams.

It’s up to you you whether you think that is worthwhile. Only time will tell. If anything just get it out of your head that EWA is not set out to see how responsible a player is for X amount of wins…. it is set out to answer which player had more of an impact – the one with a higher PER but less minutes (due to injury or coach subs) or a player with a lower PER but played more minutes? That’s what it is set out to give a numerical value.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 3:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here is entirely my problem: if EWA doesn’t relate to the number of wins has, what does it relate to? And why does that measure matter?

You asked the rhetoricals about adding Bosh or the likes. If the sum of the EWA of individuals doesn’t have to relate to team wins, why should we expect that adding a high EWA player will improve the team a certain amount, when you can quite clearly have a higher cumulative team EWA without winning games? What are you maximzing other than "EW"s.

What it is attempting to explain is what is better? A PG with a PER of 21 who plays 30 mpg for 60 games or a C with a PER of 17 who plays 33 minutes a game for 82 games.

If the statistic doesn’t relate to the number of wins, then what measure of “better” are you using, other than “higher PER/EWA”? Adding players with higher EWA doesn’t necessarily make your team better. I’m not sure why you’d be interested in any measure of individual player worth that can poorly correlate with team performance, but this measure doesn’t correlate well with team performance.

While you can’t discern anything from the Total EWA value there were some CLEAR TRENDS THAT EMERGED…playoff teams generally have a Total EWA > 40 (45 – for West) and Lottery Teams have an EWA < 30.

That is valuable information.

What is valuable about that? We have a measure that says that good teams are good, but bad teams aren’t, but it’s not a real accurate measure since there’s some rather clear outliers.

I get that it’s giving players numerical value. I do not see that this value is well calibrated as to showing who is better. So far, the best indication that it’s worthwhile is your assurance that it is. The actual utility has not been demonstrated.

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Adding players with higher EWA doesn’t necessarily make your team better.

It does make your team better, it just doesn’t mean that your team will win more often :-P

it’s not a real accurate measure since there’s some rather clear outliers.

Well, if you’re a Warriors fan, it’s an awesome statistic because it says your team was better than it’s record, which gives you hope that they’ll be better in the future. I believe in hope, do you? EWA provides that hope, believe in EWA. If you don’t believe in EWA, then you don’t believe in hope.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 8, 2009 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the statistic doesn’t relate to the number of wins, then what measure of "better" are you using, other than "higher PER/EWA"? Adding players with higher EWA doesn’t necessarily make your team better. I’m not sure why you’d be interested in any measure of individual player worth that can poorly correlate with team performance, but this measure doesn’t correlate well with team performance.

Please show me in what case does adding players with high EWA not make you better?

Again, past 40 Total EWA it’s useless for you to look at the numerical value of total EWA. It’s more important that playoff teams do have a EWA > 40 and lottery teams don’t. That’s a strong trend.

There are some outliers but when you are looking at data there are always outliers (see Troy Murphy in WP).
 
So while TOTAL EWA poorly correlates to team wins or even playoff/lottery team breakdown when you couple it with Top 5 EWA it makes it much, much, more accurate.

What is valuable about that? We have a measure that says that good teams are good, but bad teams aren’t, but it’s not a real accurate measure since there’s some rather clear outliers.

The value is knowing numerically why are good teams good and why are bad teams bad!

As for the outliers when you throw out the East and how teams with losing records make playoffs the only outliers to the 45/8 rule are Houston and Phoenix. Houston goes against the numbers b/c of their defensive foundation and statistical analysis. Phoenix missed the playoffs b/c they’re in the West. Hardly head scratching.

Good teams are good b/c they most of there talent concentrated in the Starting 5. In that starting 5 in can be consolidated in 1 player (Lebron and Cavs), 2 player (Lakers – Kobe&Pau), or 3 players (Nuggets – Billipus/Nene/Melo).

Bad teams are bad because they don’t have a strong starting 5.

Again, nothing anyone cannot discover by watching basketball games, but at least this gives us some number to work with.

Also it’s not valuing which player is better, but rather what varying stretch of minutes played by varying levels of PER is more valuable.

None of this maybe valuable to you, but to me and apparently at least 17 others found it worthwhile. It seems like we’re just going in circles so I’ll just end here for my sake.

Completely unrelated but while I have your attention, I must say though that I am disappointed that although you have such a great knowledge and understanding of statistics, your Mythbuster posts lack any type of statistical support. When I first read the title and saw that you wrote it I was expecting a statistical revelation and was quite excited. Hopefully you can redo the 1st two with some sort of statistical study because your knowledge and understanding of statistics far surpasses mine and it would be a delight to read.

I’m always a big fan of using statistics in conjunction with subjective analysis.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good teams are good b/c they most of there talent concentrated in the Starting 5.Bad teams are bad because they don’t have a strong starting 5.

   It took all these numbers for you to figure that out? Woulda been a lot more efficient to read the standings and watch a few games.

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please show me in what case does adding players with high EWA not make you better?

Without having this tracked for multiple seasons (something necessary to show that the measure has much meaning) I cannot show that adding a player has or hasn’t improved the team. Neither can you show that adding a player with a higher EWA will improve a team. However, we do know that having a higher cummulative EWA than another team does not mean you are a more successful team. This indicates maximizing EWA does not have to improve the team, else the higher the EWA sum, the better the team. I am not sure why you are having a tough time with this. If higher EWA meant improving a team, then team records should segregate well according to summed EWA for their commonents. They don’t.

Again, past 40 Total EWA it’s useless for you to look at the numerical value of total EWA. It’s more important that playoff teams do have a EWA > 40 and lottery teams don’t. That’s a strong trend.

Then this seems like a very, very limited measure that puts a number on something that didn’t require another number and basing this general conclusion one one year’s data is more than just a tiny bit premature.

One could make another rule: teams need 39 wins to make the playoffs. Is that rule any good? It has 1 exception this year. Last year it had 3 (two above who missed, one below who got in. The year before it had 2 exceptions and a year prior, 1 exception. Didn’t have to “throw out the east” to do that either. Now does that rule help us? It does if we have a way of estimating how many wins a team has.

You would get a stronger trend with wins produced, with the added advantage that it doesn’t merely segregate teams into ‘playoff’ or ‘not playoff’ but actually shows an ability to predict the actual change in record with isolated roster changes and to approximate a predicted win total, beyond just ‘in playoffs, not in playoffs’.

The value is knowing numerically why are good teams good and why are bad teams bad!

This was a mystery?


Bad teams are bad because they don’t have a strong starting 5.

Given that you can only have 5 players on the court at once, this is a trivial observation. It requires no number.

Again, nothing anyone cannot discover by watching basketball games, but at least this gives us some number to work with.

It gives us numbers. So what? Why are these numbers in particular more useful than other numbers? What I’m seeing is that you’ve got a fuzzy critical threshold with exceptions that requires looking at a ‘starting 5’ (which, for a season isn’t a fixed entity) paired with a team total that at best gives you “in playoffs/not in playoffs” with thresholds you’ve devined from a single campaign. What I’m seeing is an inferior measure. Wins produced does not require a magic threshold to produce this, shows good predictive value, and does not rely on fuzzy concepts like defining a ‘starting 5’. You come up with a ratio than then gets related a non-parametric state (in playoffs/not in playoffs). Using a parametric observation that at best brings you to a non-parametric answer (and not a particularly accurate one at that) isn’t very useful.

Also it’s not valuing which player is better, but rather what varying stretch of minutes played by varying levels of PER is more valuable.

Which is what wins produced does as well, by providing both a rate and a sum, with the added bonus of being tested against data for more than a season and showing predictive ability in doing so, and not just the ‘better players’ = better team and hoping to get over a magic threshold (that has notable exceptions that may or may not be a result of the post hoc explanation and is far less magic if you include the Eastern Conference) but being able quantify how many additional wins a team will achieve.

your Mythbuster posts lack any type of statistical support.

This is false. Not presenting the whole of the data is not the same as lacking support. What, specifically, do you think does not have support?

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So where's the data?

Hey not knocking because 3/4ths of the posts on this site don’t have data but when I read “Mythbusters + jae” I expect a data orgy.

That’s all I’m saying.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What data, specifically, are you referring to? “The data” in raw sense, is all of NBA history. What conclusion do you require evidence of the statistical support?

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

All of the conclusions...

Would love to have some examples/data to support each claim.

But in general, we can make some assumptions about Mr. X without seeing his box score results. Players can and do improve their outside shooting. Many players have entered the league with sub-standard to non-existent long range shots and have developed into accurate three point shooters, to point (and perhaps detriment) that some seem to forget how to do anything else. That said, guys who seem to be inaccurate shooters are often plagued by this for their whole career. It is not impossible, however, and better shooting is something both helps a team and seems to be a not completely unrealistic goal.

Who are these many players? I know they exist our beloved J-Rich is one of them, but where is the data?

At what FG% entering in the league does it make it impossible to improve your shot? What is the typical average of FG% improvement? For players who have shot 40% from 3 point land… how many have generally shot 40% when the entered the league and how many have shot below 40% and ended up becoming 40% shooters.

Data like that would bust myths. Saying it’s possible to improve your shot and that players have done it tell me nothing new.

Rinse and repeat for everything else. Just want to say I respect your posts and insight, but for a column labeled Mythbusters by Jae… I expected some raw data or a sample of the data you used to bust or validate the myths.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Late in this discussion

But seems like if you multiplied the minutes played per player by their EWA you will get a more accurate total for team wins then just adding up the whote roster’s EWA. Maybe it is an indication of wins.

You can’t play everyone 48 minutes.

Flax, have you tried that?

by JSML on Jun 8, 2009 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what EWA does....

EWA is…

[Total Minutes Played * (PER – Replacement Player)]/60

So it already accounts for total minutes played.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To calculate a team's wins

When you want to calculate team wins, don’t you have to multiply EWA by minutes played by player instead of adding EWA of all players?

Seems like JAE’s complaint is that the W’s are rated higher than playoff teams, but that is only true if you assume all players have equal playing time and chance to impact the wins.

by JSML on Jun 8, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

EWA already has total minutes as part of the formula (as posted above).

I simply analyzed the EWAs od each team to see any trends.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 9, 2009 12:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OK thanks

Still seems to me like your argument of only comparing the top 5 players is another way of saying the minutes do matter when calculating wins.

by JSML on Jun 9, 2009 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Higher rated players does mean you’ll have a better team. You just need to have those higher rated players in your Top 5.

 I think we already knew this but can you correlate the top teams best player and total Ewa’s and winning records and draw any conclusions about their coaching staff? Is Nelly a factor in our bad record given our decent team Ewa for instance?

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very impressive work

I think that we should build around ellis, ar and andris and not trade for bosh or amare if we gotta get rid of those 3. I also think dre still has a little room for improvement(you can never stop getting better)

by GSW9 on Jun 6, 2009 8:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+1 Great work ! I certainly agree with the basic conclusions as well. Kick me but......

…..I would also love to see what Bellinelli and Wright will show in 09/10 if given some minutes based on what we saw flash before their injuries……

by Only In Fairfax on Jun 6, 2009 10:24 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

rec'd

30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ

by Lat We N Trash on Jun 6, 2009 11:12 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

so to sleepy freud

you clearly have never played basketball at a level higher than the ymca nor undterstand how the game is played at a higher level than that or you would agree when i say

“its much easier to come off the bench for 8 minutes and score 5 points a game then it is to play a full game and socre 20.”

if it wasnt then the majority of bench players who get 10-15 minutes a game should be playing full time cuz there stats would clearly be better then the starters, and just about every big man off the bench would average a double double, every guard would get 20 points a game too.

by bizz 192 on Jun 6, 2009 11:14 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

false.

(except maybe the first part, i have no idea whether or not sleepy has played organized basketball)

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 6, 2009 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

can i get a link to the GSoM blogger combine results? i’d like to see how he did in the agility drills.

heart of a champion, will of the warrior.

by cap'n hack on Jun 6, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

damn

i m not even in the same league

30 Y 197 cm 115 kg 0 IQ

by Lat We N Trash on Jun 6, 2009 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crabdizzle, dude: my Johnson alone is almost 5’5".

Bizz-izzle: if you could find me even one example of player whose rate numbers dropped off drastically from lincreased PT, I might find your argument half-convincing.

Since you seem to want to talk ancedotally rather than statistically: couldn’t you just as easily make the argument that you play better when you’re playing a regular 25-35 minutes a game than when you have to come off the bench ice-cold for sporadic 0-5 minute stints?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 6, 2009 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ok, heres one example

just one out of many. . .

Jemareo Davidson (these we would he stats if he played 40 mpg and kept his average instead of his 8 mpg)

ppg- 15 rpg- 12

Josh Powell (a now laker former Warrior)- if he played 40 mpg

ppg- 16 rpg- 11

those are almost all-star numbers, and these are numbers they would put up if they just kept playing the way they playd, without coaches making plays for them, i say the lakers and warriors are stupid for not playing these players more, Davidson is clearly the best player on the warrior team, why is he only getting 8 minutes a game when he plays?

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 12:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

B/c Randolph p/40 is better...

17.7 p/40 and 12.9 r/40

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by FLAxwless on Jun 7, 2009 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

B/c Randolph p/40 is better...17.7 p/40 and 12.9 r/40

  I think you just proved his point.

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disproved his point...
Davidson is clearly the best player on the warrior team, why is he only getting 8 minutes a game when he plays?

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disproved his point...

  you just made a fantasy a bigger fantasy.
     But if more minutes make a player better then don’t you think every team would always only play 5 players and hope for overtime so they could get even better?

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No...

I disproved his point using his won statistic.

He said Davidson is clearly the best player based on per 40 numbers, so I showed that Randolph’s per 40 numbers were better.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I disproved his point using his own* statistic."

typo

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let me introduce you...

the the words “small sample size”. He only played a total of 111 minutes all year and almost all of them came in garbage time. If your interested in looking into this, and finding out why your wrong on this one, you can read more here.

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=501

If a guy consistently puts up solid per minute numbers over an extended period of time there is no reason to think that they wouldn’t hold up under an increase in playing time. They might not, but it’s actually more likely that they go up than drop off.

BTW I’d recommend using per 36 minutes instead of per 40, just because very few guys actually average 40 minutes so it tends to make the numbers look a little inflated compared to the per game numbers of your average starter.

Also, look a little closer than pts and rebs. If you did you’d see that Josh Powell is not a very efficient scorer for a big man, blocks few shots and fouls too often. Definitely nowhere near all-star numbers if you project them out to starters minutes.

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 7, 2009 1:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The challenge:

if you could find me even one example of player whose rate numbers dropped off drastically from increased PT, I might find your argument half-convincing.

The response:

Jemareo Davidson (these we would he stats if he played 40 mpg and kept his average instead of his 8 mpg) ppg- 15 rpg- 12; Josh Powell (a now laker former Warrior)- if he played 40 mpg ppg- 16 rpg- 11

Total reading comprehension fail.

Meanwhile, see OM’s comments and links regarding sample size. In Davidson’s larger 400-minute career sample size, he’ averaged a modest 13.5/8.0 per 36, while shooting 42% from the field and picking up 5 fouls. Powell, meanwhile, has averaged 11.0 and 9.0, with a 45.5% fg and 4.5 fouls. Based on the numbers alone, none of these scream NBA starting bigman, or even regular rotation player.

I’m still looking forward to your one example of a player whose per minute numbers dropped off significantly from increased playing time.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 7, 2009 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats the best i can do

i dont no where to find the stats to show it and im not going to look game by game to prove something i know is true because i have better things to do. This is just a classic example of 2 different views on the game, people that are statistic freaks and know nothing else, and people that play and understand the game.

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha
people that are statistic freaks and know nothing else, and people that play and understand the game.

I see what you did there. I’m not so into simple dualities, but I think the “classic example” you’re looking for is (1) people who have the guts and brains to test “what they know to be true” against the real world; and (2) superstitious, poorly educated crybabies who get their undies in a bunch when they’ve been schooled. Did you even glance at the article OM provided for you?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 7, 2009 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

???

what are you talking about “(1) people who have the guts and brains to test "what they know to be true" against the real world”

i dont no of anything that was done that took guts and brains, and how could say its what “they know to be true”, when its not proven at all. Do you know it to be true that if Randolph got full playing time throughout a season he’d get 17.7 p/40 and 12.9 r/40. The one thing your claiming that is known to be true is not true at all and all based on numbers, nothing to do with the other variables, thats not a good argument.

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and more

why this doesn’t work. Its easy to be a guy who goes out and plays for 10 minutes and in those 10 minutes completely uses all his energy and then is done. In those 10 minutes he might get 6 points and 3 boards. But he won’t play at that level for 30 minutes. He will not average 18 points and 9 boards. And if for some reason he some how did he would then be put into other coahces game plans, other teams would focus on him, and then his numbers would go down anyways. Maybe i should write a post on why all this isn’t true and doesn’t mean anything.

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I realize that you aren’t susceptible to evidence, but the VAST bulk of evidence indicates that rebound rates do project very well. There does not appear to be much if anything to the notion that guys who play short periods of time do very well rebounding because they can use all their energy. In fact, if anything, the opposite appears to be true and players who are forced into more playing time (e.g. because a teammate is injured and all of a sudden they go from being a part time bench player to a high minute starter) usually do better. You can dismiss this, but be aware that when you are, you’re choosing to believe something that is not true and choosing to believe something that is contrary to real evidence in favor of your own unfounded opinion.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe i should write a post on why all this isn’t true and doesn’t mean anything.

Knock yourself out. But if you want to write a legit post, rather than simply wishcasting “what you know to be true,” maybe you should try reading a couple relevant studies on the matter, like the one OM posted for you.

Conceptually, this study (based on a similar one done by John Hollinger in the original Pro Basketball Prospectus book) avoided the usual pitfalls of assessing performance based on playing time, namely that players naturally tend to play more when they play well.

Lo and behold, the data showed that these players tended to improve their performance when given more regular minutes, contradicting the critics’ naysaying.

There’s a perfectly logical explanation for why this would be the case. Given more playing time, players have a chance to get warm and play through their mistakes instead of constantly watching the bench and waiting for their coach to pull them from the game.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 7, 2009 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

how could say its what "they know to be true", when its not proven at all

Exactly.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 7, 2009 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

people that are statistic freaks and know nothing else, and people that play and understand the game.

You missed two other alternatives (of many others): 1) People who understand statistics and use this to augment their understanding of the game, and 2) people who play the game and have only a superficial and often errant understanding of what is going on, who believe that their ability to do things on the court endows them with some deeper understanding who have confused talent at particular skills with actual knowledge.

Many excellent players have demonstrated themselves to be utterly flawed when it comes to constructing teams. If being able to play the game endowed someone with special understanding, the Bobcats would be a better team and Bill Russel would not have been a disgracefully bad GM.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

“people who play the game and have only a superficial and often errant understanding of what is going on” really, like is that a joke or are you being serious. I dont know of to many situations where with an exception of the coaching staff, people off the court have a better understanding of whats going on the court, then the actual people on the court.

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am being serious and you don’t know how to read very well.

I did not say that all people who do not play have a better understanding than those who do. Some do, some don’t. You presented a false dichotomy (look the word up, and while you’re at it, learn the different forms of “to” and “too” as well as the difference between “then” and “than”). You presented two possibilities, implying that playing gives you a better understanding in general. I do not believe this to be universally true. Having the talent to play does not endow you with special understanding for creating a good team. Many people can do things well, but come to false conclusions about why they were successful.

I don’t believe that saying this (or anything else) will have any impact on your thinking. You have hard-headedly decided that the ‘stats freaks’ can’t know as much as someone who plays the game (and also errantly decided categorically that being a ‘stats freak’ is somehow diametrically opposed to playing) but for sake of those out there who aren’t as intellectually challenged, I’ll post this anyhow.

by jae on Jun 7, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow

you just completely turned it on me, im pretty sure i didnt say that “stat freaks” don’t know anything, i just said that i think players understand the game better than people that just watch. And i never said “stat freaks” don’t know more than any player, cuz they’re obviously people that understand the game that dont play and people that do play and are clueless, but in general terms people that play the game i think have a better understanding of it. And i dont see where i said “stat freaks” dont play the game, half my team, me included, are “stat freaks”, i look into all this stuff. I just dont believe most of it.

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and one more again

i like how you call me intellectually challenged and comment on my bad grammar. First of all im sorry for not using perfect grammar when posting a comment on the interent, i didnt know that grammar was important. Second, i have a slight feeling i am actually smarter than you are and probably do have a higher vocab now that i memorized a list of 1000 words for the SAT i just dont choose to use them because im not arrogant and dont enjoy making people feel abased by using words they dont know(abase is the first word on the list in alphabetical order).

by bizz 192 on Jun 7, 2009 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

JAE... no to be picky but...
If being able to play the game endowed someone with special understanding, the Bobcats would be a better team and Bill Russel would not have been a disgracefully bad GM.

To the best of my knowledge Bill Russell was never a GM, not of the Celtics, Seatle Supersonics, or Sacramento Kings in his post-player career. I think you were thinking of another player with Seattle ties in Elgin Baylor, who was the Clipper’s GM for 22 pathetic seasons. It’s a pretty easy mistake. They’re both dominate big men from a completely different era. But mind you this Russell for some reason was always a winner, were as Baylor was on many of those Minnesota/LA Laker teams that couldn’t get past the Celtics for a title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Russell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Baylor

A Sonics fan without a team.. Though I'm auditioning GS Warriors this season.

by mcwalter44 on Jun 7, 2009 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I meant Russell. Bill Russell had the role of President of Basketball Operations of the Sac Kings, a role where he was responsible for the draft as well as coaching when they drafted Pervis Ellison with the #1 overall pick. I thought he had been given the title of GM, but he was the GM in much the way that Mullin was Warriors GM, though he was never actually given that title either.

But Baylor too was an excellent player with uh, ‘limited’ success as GM. In some ways, I give Baylor more of pass as he was for the 22 years constrained by having to work under Sterling, who never gave him much to work with.

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hum...

Fair enough.

He led the Seattle SuperSonics to their first-ever playoff berths, leaving in 1977 with a four-year record of 162-166. Other than his work as a TV commentator, Russell was out of the game 10 years when he resurfaced with the Sacramento Kings. A disastrous 17-41 record led to his exit from the bench. He went to the front office and was fired in late 1990. – Ron Flatter, ESPN

Looks like he drafted:
Ricky Berry – 1988
Vinney Del Negro -1988
Pervis Ellison – 1989
Lionel Simmons – 1990
Travis Mays – 1990
Duane Causwell – 1990
Anthony Bonner – 1990
Bimbo Coles – 1990

A Sonics fan without a team.. Though I'm auditioning GS Warriors this season.

by mcwalter44 on Jun 8, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

averaging 40 minutes per game is a ton of minutes.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 8, 2009 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry but the Warriors aren't as good as the Magic

It’s like you already admitted, these stats don’t factor in defense. Of course a team with one of the best offenses (statistically) and THE WORST (again, statistically)defense in the league will look good.

The Magic have:
     -a low post presence that demands the opposing defense’s attention
     -the defensive player of the year
     -an all-star point guard (actually made an all-star game, not just potential)
     -two or three matchup nightmares on the floor at any given time
     -conisistent bench play

While the Warriors young players can develop into many of these roles (minus maybe defensive p.o.y) they aren’t as good as the magic, sorry. And they probably wouldn’t have won 48 games (same as ‘07-’08 season if I’m not mistaken) even if totally healthy. Gotta factor in defense.

by LakerFan24 on Jun 6, 2009 11:16 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Where did I ever say they were as good as the Magic?

I said they had more overall TALENT compared to the Magic based on Total EWA, but are CLEARLY inferior based on EWA/Top 5 player at 8.86 v 6.0.

Again to be a legit playoff team you need to pass the 45/8 bench marks. The Warriors got the 48 but the starting 5 is so weak.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

catching up
the Warriors have the MOST players with a positive EWA (12) and are actually the ONLY team without players possessing a negative EWA. Adding up the EWA of the players the Warriors’ total of 48.30 ranks as 7th best in the NBA

The above didn’t give me much confidence in the EWA stat at the outset, but …

So what do all these numbers suggest? It shows that the Warriors have a roster full of legitimate NBA rotation players as evidenced by the EWA total and per player average, but had one of the weakest starting 5s in the NBA … not a revelation to Warrior fans that have been searching for a difference maker since BD left, but it is always comforting when observations are supported by statistics.

… That led some credibility.

Stand Pat? Assuming all our guys return and play healthy is a huge assumption given some of our past injury problems, though our depth would cover somewhat because as you say we don’t have much difference from first 5 to the bench. So, while the numbers may suggest we could stand pat and make the 8th seed, I’m not convinced. Another intangible that could disrupt next year’s playoff push would be Nelson’s potential lame-duck status if/when it becomes apparent that he’s leaving at season’s end.

As for adding Bosh, who is a difference maker -

The other two combos of Ellis or Biedrins + Randolph will improve the Warriors in 09-10 for sure and almost make them a lock for Playoffs but would they win a championship?

A: probably not, but we’d be a whole lot closer to the WCF, and that’s knocking on the door. For some of us who’ve been wandering through the desert of GSW fandom, being more of a lock to make the playoffs is like manna from heaven. Having said that, you make a good point that:

given time to mature Ellis, Randolph, and Biedrins can take us further than Bosh could on his own.

You also make convincing arguments about Amare, Boozer, and AK (whom I can’t imagine getting by trading Maggette to Coach Sloan). As for adding Miller, we’d essentially be giving up on the Monta at PG for good, as Miller would be here a while and Ellis isn’t as likely to slide to PG in a couple years when he’s lost some quickness. Now, if Miller got us to the playoffs, and provided time to groom the next PG, so be it. But like you, I don’t see a scenario which results in landing Miller. Also no argument with drafting BPA whatsoever, those quality rotation players have value in any circumstance and our history of drafting for need has had dismal results.

FLAzwless, I’m absolutely impressed with the post (rec’d): the analysis, the stats, the thoroughness are over the top. So why am I left so unfulfilled? Because I am a fan and want my team improving significantly after a 29 win season. Standing pat feels so wrong, even when your numbers make sense. It’s brutally hard to ask fans dying in the desert to be patient for water. The Bosh mirage seems to be drying up anyway, but so too is our patience.

by hardcore on Jun 6, 2009 11:39 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I feel ya....

It doesn’t make sense, but in essence we are still putting our faith in Mully and the team he assembled. Most have us were disappointed in Mully being let go, but at least he left the team in a great spot talent wise… wish we could say the same financially.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Standing pat feels so wrong, even when your numbers make sense. It’s brutally hard to ask fans dying in the desert to be patient for water. The Bosh mirage seems to be drying up anyway, but so too is our patience.

Show me a good option, and I’ll advocate for wholesale changes. However, no team is run by a complete idiot, and no player that would change our team for the better can be had for less than comparable talent in return. Thus, a 29 win team CANNOT be vastly improved overnight, and fans who are"dying in the desert" should realize that:

A) They aren’t dying, they’re rooting for a bad basketball team
B) They aren’t in a desert
C) Wanting something doesn’t make it immediately achievable
D) Making wholesale changes for the sake of making changes is idiotic

If a good deal comes around (i.e. KG becoming available at 50 cents on the dollar), great! If not, let’s not do something hasty just because we want to make a move.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 7, 2009 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

let’s not do something hasty just because we want to make a move

agreed

Show me a good option

Have, repeatedly. Re-read above or you can look up “Truth Hurts” in the posts or the most recent one about adding CV

additionally, if you took the time to read my posts you would know that I’ve consistently written that we’d have to give up talent to obtain talent – again see Truth Hurts, among others …

Re your use of setting up extreme examples to then knock them down (KG for 50 cents on the dollar) is usually referred to as a straw-man – see many of Sleepy Freud‘s posts on the subject, very instructive for people who think they’re being funny or effective debaters using extreme examples to make a point, and they’re neither funny nor effective in the process.

The use of a metaphor (manna from heaven, etc) is different than the straw-man, and also from the sarcasm which seems to permeate your posts on a consistent basis, apparently for the simple purpose of attacking others while at the same time failing to propose constructive, meaningful ideas to the conversation.

by hardcore on Jun 8, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re your use of setting up extreme examples to then knock them down (KG for 50 cents on the dollar) is usually referred to as a straw-man – see many of Sleepy Freud‘s posts on the subject, very instructive for people who think they’re being funny or effective debaters using extreme examples to make a point, and they’re neither funny nor effective in the process.

This is what I said:

If a good deal comes around (i.e. KG becoming available at 50 cents on the dollar), great! If not, let’s not do something hasty just because we want to make a move.

The term “i.e.” is used to suggest that what follows is an example of what I am suggesting. I never suggested you were saying a similar trade was available, or were even discussing it. I merely stated it as an awesome trade that I would jump all over. Nothing more, nothing less.

All I was trying to convey with that last paragraph was that if a good deal comes around we should take it. If it’s not such a talent coup, then no move is likely better than “move made in an effort to make a move and appear to fans/ownership that I, Larry Riley, am doing something about the problem.”

I’m sorry if my terminology, sarcasm, grammar, etc. lead you to believe I was asserting that you were making some outlandish claim that an equivalent trade was available. If [insert any player’s name here] were to be on the block for 50% of what he’s worth, I’d be all for it. If, however, we’re getting Chris Bosh for Andris Biedrins and Anthony Randolph and fodder (or similar), I’m not so excited. I hope that the Warriors will, one day, be better than just a #6 seed once or twice, which is what I expect from a Warriors team that’s paying Monta Ellis (or Biedrins), Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette, and Jamal Crawford $10M each and Chris Bosh $15M+ (which is what it would take to keep him on the roster after the coming year).

As for metaphors, I’m all for “manna from heaven”, that’s fine and dandy, idealistic, nebulous, and pure fantasyland speak (can you tell I’m an atheist?). Where I tend to draw the line is likening a sport to war or being a fan of a losing basketball team to somebody dying in a desert. Maybe I’m being silly about it.

Adding CV is dependent on A) The bucks not resigning him B) Him being available for <$4M/year. Are either of those likely? Not really. If his pricetag is $4M, the Bucks re-sign him. However, PFs who are marginally productive do not get paid less than Mike Pietrus. He gets full MLE from someone…

As for “Truth Hurts,” I’d do either of these trades:

A) Maggette + Randolph + another role player for the right PF.
B) Monta + Wright + another role player for a legit PF

But…
I’d rather draft “PF from quality college conference with longupsidepotential and ‘solid upperclassman’ status, but has unfounded ‘work ethic’ red flags.” He’s younger and just as productive as “the right PF” and has the potential to become “legit PF” in 2 years without us having to give up any of our existing talent. And by that time, JC will be off the books and Jax & Maggette will be “expiring contracts.”

My point, as always, is that It’s easy to say “we need to add a legit [insert position here]” or “we should trade [bad contract] along with [promising young player still on rookie contract] for a decent, but not great player at [position of need]”, the difficulty comes when you actually have to ascribe names to all of those bracketed ideas. We all know what size and shape of a jigsaw puzzle we want to make, it’s difficult to find the right pieces to make it fit. Bosh? Amare? Sure, they’re talented, but what do we have to give up, what do we have to pay them, and how long will they stay?

Sorry if I offended you with my sarcasm and dry humor. I hope that my keeping unrealistic trade and free agent ideas in perspective provides some utility for the GSoM community in general.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 8, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The term "i.e." is used to suggest that what follows is an example of what I am suggesting.

“i.e.” should not precede a particular example or list of examples, but something definitional. It translates more or less as “in other words” or “it is.” “e.g.” precedes examples and translates more or less as “for example.” (example: The Commander-in-Chief of the US military (i.e. President of the US) has a tougher job than a cashier at a chain coffee store (e.g. Starbucks, Tulley’s).

Generally speaking, if it is possible to include a list, e.g. is more often than not the appropriate tool. If the only time a good deal ever came around meant, specifically, KG for 50 cents on the dollar, it would be i.e., but since other good deals (e.g. Baron for Dale Davis and Speedy Claxton, Pau Gasol for three broken toasters) have occurred, it isn’t. As you wrote it literally, you stated that KG for 50 cents on the dollar was the only really good deal ever, though that was not your intent.

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

The Commander-in-Chief of the US military (i.e. President of the US) has a tougher job than a cashier at a chain coffee store (e.g. Starbucks, Tulley’s).

  I don’t think so. Do we have the stats to back up this claim? Have the Starbucks/DunkinDognuts clerks been polled?
  Old Pres. has a big staff and a bigger budget at his disposal, that makes it look pretty soft to me.

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

whoa weird

I just had to look up the specific differences between “i.e.” and “e.g.” right before my final this morning…..who knew I could’ve just spent a few more minutes procrastinating here and still gotten the answer?

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 8, 2009 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

nevermind, I just looked at the time stamps, looks like I was having to look those up hours before this discussion. Too bad I didn’t get here sooner so I could look smurt.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 8, 2009 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too bad I didn’t get here sooner so I could look smurt.

 Don’t worry Sam,we know you are smurt.

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hooray for me!!!

I speaks english good!

I’ve always used the two interchangeably. Just goes to show you that I’m an engineer, rather than a English major.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 9, 2009 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The term "i.e." is used to suggest that what follows is an example of what I am suggesting.

Just to be a stickler: i.e. is from the Latin id est, meaning “that is.” It should be used to suggest that what follows is another way of saying what you just said. If what follows is an example of what you just said, you should use e.g. (from the Latin exempli gratia, meaning “for example”).

Fake edit: D’oh, damn you JAE!

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 8, 2009 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

I’ll give you the win for actually knowing what those two particular abbreviations stand for in Latin (i.e. "i.e. is from the Latin id est and e.g. is from the Latin exempli gratia).

by jae on Jun 8, 2009 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Always gotta love grammar lessons!

Rec’d for the lessons.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haha

I have learned more things totally unrelated to basketball on this site than I could have ever expected.

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 8, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

this is something of an epic thread….latin/grammar lessons, a loooooong but relatively fresh and interesting statistical back and forth, and a 5 and a half foot penis reference thrown in for good measure.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 8, 2009 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha

and it’s actually even more entertaining when you sum it all up in one sentence like that.

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 8, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good stuff Flax

Brandon Jennings, Ty Lawson, or Tyreke Evans. A Warrior in 09.
With the 6th Pick in the 2009 MLB Draft, the SF Giants pick Donovan Tate.

Conductor of the We're Back Warrior Movement!

by ejdacanay on Jun 6, 2009 12:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

rec'd

definately one of the best reads ive had on the site. Hopely this will sway some of the gloom and doomer’s on this site. It’s pretty clear that the warriors have alot of good players but lack that one great player.
As for the trade scenarios for Bosh its getting pretty clear hes not returning to toronto in summer of 2010. A scenario of keeping the core of Ellis, Randolph, Biedrins and adding Bosh for say example( Bosh and filler for maggs buike wright 7th pick ) or some kind of combo might be enough for a rental. Which might give him a reason to resign a max contract with us.
Anyways very well done Flawless

by Warriorfan on Jun 6, 2009 1:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm curious as to why the projected lineup for next season didn't include Jamal?

The starting 5 is correct, but the backups should feature Jamal over CJ, we probably wont even have CJ next season. The minutes and who will play will also change based on who we face. BWright will see a good amount of minutes next year. So will Marco. Monta and Jack will probably be the only players to average 30+ mins a game.

I basically agree with the estimate on mins except I see Jamal getting 25 off the bench and Morrow only getting 10. I also see Randolph getting about 10 mins less, buike will get around 5 mins less, and Ronny will have a few less minutes. I can see the rest of those being made up by BWright, and Marco, as well as Jack. Because I see him and Monta each getting about 35 a night.

Monta/33
Jack/33
Buike/25
AR/20
AB/27

Jamal/25
Marco/10
Morrow/10
Maggette/27
BWright/15
Turiaf/15

Now obviously these are subject to change each game depending on injuries and what not. But these minutes add up exactly to 240 and I can see this as a realistic estimate. This means that Monta, Jack, Corey, and AB will get the most mins, which is realistic. Buike and Jamal also see heavy mins, which also makes sense because Nellie likes going small and playing the best players. That’s why I see these guys playing these minutes. But There are still plenty of mins for BWright, AR, and Ronny. It is also possible that AR’s mins are lessened and BWright and Rony pick up a few mins each.

These seem to be an accurate estimate based on Nellie’s preference to play his best players as much as possible, as well as go small. Monta and Jack will have the most minutes, but being that we have all this talent that you chronicled, we should be able to dispell our main guys. Less court time per game and more rest means less injuries, which means that we will be in better shape if we make the playoffs.

We should have a unique team, as you mentioned we have depth as our strength, and we should utilize it. Also our depth should allow for our starters to not worry about foul trouble, most of them will see under 30 mins. This should allow them to play looser and more physical, which hopefully makes us better as a defensive team.

by myk on Jun 6, 2009 2:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

EWA applied to my lineup

        Mins/Total/PER/EWA
Ellis /33 /2706 /18.92 /10.66
Jackson /33 /2706 /15 /6.06
Azubuike /25 /2050 /14.74 /3.81
Randolph /20 /1640 /16.94 /4.44
Biedrins /27 /2214 /19.16 /9.43

Crawford /25 /2050 /15.15 /4.23
Belinelli /10 /820 /14.7 /1.71
Morrow /10 /820 /14.7 /1.71
Maggette /27 /2214 /16.91 /7.06
Wright /15 /1230 /18 /3.98
Turiaf /15 /1230 /14.58 /2.44

Total /55.53
Top 5 /7.53
Per Player /5.05
  

So that would leave us with lower than average marks (compared to western playoff teams) in both top 5 and per player rankings. However, we would end up with 55-56 wins, which would allow us to be a top 5 western conference team. So this actually reaffirms my optimism for next season. According to EWA we have the talent to win alot of games, we just won’t be doing it with one superstar, or a couple amazing players, it would be an entire team effort that utilizes our depth. Of course probably due to defense we would probably be a 6th seed at best. And that’s considering that each of these players plays 82 games, which is very unlikely.

As I stated, our depth gives us an interesting look and it allows us to be the best overall team in the league. But you don’t play 11 guys at once, you play 5, and thats why we are not even close to the best team, our top 5 are a little bit behind. Being that 4 of those starting 5 are under 25, that means their EWA can only improve, thus also proving that this team has a solid young core to build around. Now I have statistical proof to back up my unrelenting optimism for the potential of this team.

Thanks FLAxwless

by myk on Jun 6, 2009 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually we rank ahead of the avearge western playoff teams in per player ranking as well. The average is 4.46 we would have a 5.05. So we sould actually only be worse off in top 5. Too bad this is only speculation…

by myk on Jun 6, 2009 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That we ranked above several playoff teams indicates that what this metric addresses is not wins. It is something rather different and isn’t terribly useful as a result.

by jae on Jun 6, 2009 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It pretty much assesses individual talent and tries to translate that into wins.

It doesn’t factor in chemisty, injuries, or any real defensive stat. Obviously everyone would be shocked if we won 55-56 games next year, and we won’t. But at the same time, this does give a statistical analysis of our talent as compared to that of every other team. It pretty much just shows that we are deep, but that unless Monta or someone else explodes and has a superstar year, we’re probably looking at the 7th seed as the absolute best possible outcome.

by myk on Jun 6, 2009 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nelson made it loud and clear regarding Crawford...

Crawford is not going to be on the Warriors or else he’s going to be on non-active roster a la Starbury.

If we are committed to Monta at PG we don’t need another player who needs the ball in his hands, we’d need to surround him with as many spot up shooters as possible to drive and kick. Buike, Morrow, Jackson, and Belinelli are much more reliable spot up shooters than Crawford.

So we’ll see. Your distribution of minutes is a bit more realistic than mine but I think we’ll see Crawford, Belinelli, and Wright in the dog house.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 6, 2009 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well if we arent playing JC

than Belinelli shouldn’t be in the dog house. We aren’t resigning CJ and I don’t see any of the available rookies at 7 doing anything very positive with those minutes. Hopefully if JC is in the dog house we see an increase in both Marco and Morrow’s minutes. Which would leave Monta as our only player with a PG’s body.

I guess if indeed we can’t count on Jamal being there, Nellie will probably try to put a rookie in there, or resign CJ, or both. If the rookie thing doesn’t work, and we can’t resign CJ, he has to go with Belinelli, which is cool by me. He’s proven he can move the ball around well, good vision, good passer. I’d say we’re still in good shape regardless. Injuries are the only concern.

Also AR, Turiaf, and Biedrins won’t hold down the frontcourt on their own. BWright will play a lot. Our starting PF is yet to be decided, although AR does have the edge.

by myk on Jun 6, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

signing CJ

would, I’m guessing, be predicated on moving Crawford – otherwise Crawford is the backup PG to Monta … but there’s almost no scenario in which Marco would be the backup PG when either CJ or Crawford is available to serve that purpose

by hardcore on Jun 6, 2009 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow!

How long have you been working on this post? A+ for you. The EWA seems pretty accurate in terms of what we lack-a SUPERSTAR. No offense to Biedrins, but when he’s our “best player”, something’s gotta change. He was very effective though in the wins we did have. Of the 29 games we won, he played in 22 of them(started in all 22 of those wins). 16 of those games he went for at least 10 points and 9 rebounds.

Getting rid of Crawford or Maggette will not be as easy as most people think either, so I honestly see pretty much everyone from last year’s roster coming back next season. As much as I would love to land a superstar or big impact player on the Warriors, I would never trade our young talent we have put a lot of stock in for a quick fix (Bosh, Amare).

Anyways great post FLAxwless!

by Captain Jack on Jun 6, 2009 4:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The EWA seems pretty accurate in terms of what we lack-a SUPERSTAR.

  Didn’t have to read all the way down here to know that :>)
     Since this Ewa is a trailing indicator I don’t really care what it says, especially if it says Montay to Dris is gonna be our key to the finals, they might be big and little but they are not Kobe and Bynum. The big problem with it is the formula can’t see what it is numerating, it doesn’t know why these things are happening. It don’t know Montay doesn’t have handles or Dris can’t back down anyone so it is not surprised when the numbers come up positive but the team stunk .

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since this Ewa is a trailing indicator

This is really what I take away from it. Maybe the issue is that it’s been recently developed and hasn’t been extensively used in predictive situations and that it’ll bear out its utility over time. We’ll see…

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 8, 2009 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yah pretty much.

Agreed it’s looking at things in the past, but like you said in order to make predictions we have to look at the past and see trends. However, that’s what great about EWA is it factors in total minutes played so it will account for injuries and coaches’ rotations.

So far for prediction purposes there’s the 45/8 rule to make playoffs in the West (in the East you only really need 40/8) and that if Monta and Biedrins are health for most of the season the Warriors should compete for a playoff spot. Let’s see how that pans out next season.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 8, 2009 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if Monta and Biedrins are health for most of the season the Warriors should compete for a playoff spot. Let’s see how that pans out next season.

I’ve been saying that for a few months now… without the benefit of EWA.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 9, 2009 6:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your point is?

Anyone can say whatever they want but what you use to support your stance is what matters most.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 9, 2009 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As has been pointed out before

Humm… see here:

http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/2/11/755968/10-games-in-and-i-like-wha

See here:

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/monta_ellis/
http://www.nba.com/playerfile/andris_biedrins/

Wouldn’t it be great if we had two guys with those shooting percentages, rebounding rates, assist ratios, etc. on the floor for us instead of these guys?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=3277
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=3837
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/splits?playerId=2789
I can’t find DeMarcus Nelson and Marcus Williams, but you get the idea.

You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to know that the Warriors would be better off with their better players healthy and on the floor.

Furthermore, you’ve done nothing to convince me that EWA is any better than WP. It does not benchmark as well against actual performance (which is black and white equal to the winning percentage allowing some slight variation for good/bad luck that can factor into wins/losses). There is less data. To me, it looks like Hollinger and ESPN got a little worried that people have stopped liking their PER and migrated to following other statistical measures, so they crafted a similar one. Since the formulas that go into it are not publicly divulged, it’s not as if there’s any 3rd party analysis of the metric, thus, as JAE and others have said, all we have to go on is your assertion that it’s a great statistic… which is dubious.

Here’s the text of the first entry that came up when I typed “Hollinger EWA” into google:

Finding an objective measure to evaluate the NBA draft is a tall task, but John Hollinger’s EWA formula paves the road to enlightenment

If that’s not marketing speak, I don’t know what is. Furthermore, it was written on June 2nd, 2009. They’re losing market share and want to get some of it back. Until the formulas are more well understood, it’s unclear that it’s anything revolutionary that should replace, or even be used in conjunction with, other pre-existing statistical measures.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 9, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sorry. I forgot your opinion is the only one that matters.

I don’t have to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You’re not as important as you think you are.

As for the conclusions of the post. There’s nothing wrong with coming to the same conclusions in a different way or with new data. Is it illegal b/c you’ve said it before? If so I apologize but for some reason, I don’t know where I got the idea, but I actually thought posts like this were encouraged. Silly me.

As for EWA… we’ll see. Again, I didn’t create the statistic. I just thought it was something worth looking at in a different light. You may not think so but at least 19 others thought it was.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 9, 2009 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I just thought it was something worth looking at in a different light. You may not think so but at least 19 others thought it was.

Don’t confuse recommending the post with endorsing the statistic. It was an interesting post with content, even if I find support for the validity of the statistic to be lacking. In many cases rec seems to mean “wow, interesting” more than it means “I am endorsing the use of EWA”.

by jae on Jun 9, 2009 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed.

Probably not clear enough especially when it’s right after mentioning EWA , but I meant that 19 others agreed that it was worth reading although it may come to the same conclusions Dubs has said before. Not that 19 others agree with the use of EWA, but rather that looking at something differently is always a good thing.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 9, 2009 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry. I forgot your opinion is the only one that matters.

I don’t have to convince you of anything and I’m not trying to convince you of anything. You’re not as important as you think you are.

I don’t see where I said anything of the sort, but I thought the purpose of this thread was to:

A) Make the GSoM community aware of a new statistical metric, EWA
B) Hold an open discussion on the merits of said new statistical metric to see how it compares to existing metrics

I shared my opinion. You have yours, I have mine. Where did I say that everyone should follow my lead and do what I say or that my opinion is more valuable than yours. My opinion is more important to me than yours is. But, for your sake, I pray to Allah that your opinion is more important to you than mine is.

As for the conclusions of the post. There’s nothing wrong with coming to the same conclusions in a different way or with new data.

If all it does is come to the same conclusions as pre-existing metrics, it’s redundant. If it provides some slight insight into some slight nuance, it’s worth delving into further to see how it figures out what goes into that nuance. At this point, the metric itself is not understood, there are some significant outliers (as there will always be in any statistical metric), and it appears to be redundant.

Again, if all it tells you is that the Warriors would be a better team with a healthy Monta Ellis and a healthy Andris Biedrins, then why put in the effort to go past, “Monta Ellis is a lightning quick guard who scores 20 points per game on 53% shooting, and Andris Beidrins is a fast big man who rebounds everything in sight (16 RP40) and doesn’t take any bad shots (~60% FG). Having these guys on the floor instead of career backups and rookies would be beneficial to the Warriors team.”

I don’t need some fancy metric to tell me that this is true, so why invent the fancy metric?

It is a new metric put out by one of the more popular (if not necessarily most respected) basketball statistics minds. It’s certainly worth a read, but at this point, since it appears to be less than 1 month old, the jury is still out on whether it provides anything better or different from preexisting statistical metrics.

"No no Nene!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zB5DxNl4EB0
Marco Belinelli : Larry Bird

A) R Dizzle : AB1
B) AB1 : R Dizzle
C) OM : Sleepy
D) Sleepy : OM
E) None of the above

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 10, 2009 7:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds good. I can agree with that.

I don’t think it’s redundant, but I agree with everything else you said.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 10, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great post

We need a superstar. :D

Bay Area fan going to UCLA.

by Yoyo on Jun 7, 2009 3:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Like any stat, this shows it is just one piece of the puzzle

I do think this was a great post though when you compare PER and other stats like average years of experience along side the EWA.

With our team having a very respectable EWA and the lowest Ave Years Exp of 2.8 in the NBA, I think it shows we are one solid piece away from serious contention. The team will get better as they play together more -hopefully with way fewer injuries.

There is a lot of room for improvement from Randolph and Monta, and I still think Beidrins will become more valuable as his playing style matures even if his numbers dont grow astronomically.

Other than the Blazers, I think our team has the most opportunity to really make a big positive move forward for the long term.

Unlike the Blazers, our front office might commit NBA suicide before it happens though

by warriorsvictim on Jun 8, 2009 11:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

To what effect on the EWA will..

1. Cohan selling
2. Rowell being fired
3. Nelly being fired.
4. Riley being fired.
5. A defensive minded coach being hired
6. Bad contracts be dumped.

have on the stat?

by phiLthyphiL on Jun 8, 2009 3:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

yea. ..

and things like player fatigue, injuries, strategies of opponents against you because if you get more minutes and start teams will take a better look at you. It works from a statistical standpoint but there are just too many x-factors in my mind that make EWA not that accurate.

and by the way i dont think i ever mentioned this in all my comments but this was a very very very good post.

by bizz 192 on Jun 8, 2009 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you get more minutes and start teams will take a better look at you

This is a nice idea, but, like the other arguments against pro-rating per-minute numbers, not really borne out by any statistical studies. Don’t you think if it your “it’s easier to score 5 pts in 8 minutes than 20 in a game” theory were as true as you keep insisting it is, you could come up with one example of a player whose per minute numbers nosedived when he was given regular PT?

I share your mistrust of EWA, but you do realize that EWA and WP, unlike WP48 and PER, actually factor in total minutes played?

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 8, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t you think if it your "it’s easier to score 5 pts in 8 minutes than 20 in a game" theory were as true as you keep insisting it is, you could come up with one example of a player whose per minute numbers nosedived when he was given regular PT?

 Hi Sleepy, Whasamattayou, haven’t you ever played any sport? It’s a lot easier to perform at a high level for a short time than for a long time. Just look at times per 100 meters for sprinters versus marathoners. The obvious reason players don’t get worse as their minutes increase is they’d get benched so you’d never have the crappiness translate into long term stats, players that get better earn the increased minutes, and do better inspite of them not because of them. eg, ie, ad hoc etc.. Another way to look at is if players could just get better by playing more minutes every team would only play 5 guys every game and would pray for overtime so those five could get even better.

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 8, 2009 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

haven’t you ever played any sport?

Ah yes, the ol’ ad hominem “you must not be an athlete” line when logic fails. Somehow I expect better from you. Yes, Skep, I haven’t played any sport. Ever. Unless you count video games, pocket pool, and dragging my 1,000 pound fatbody from the computer to the kitchen for the daily box full of donuts and salad bowl full of Froot Loops my mommy has fixed for me.

Just look at times per 100 meters for sprinters versus marathoners.

A highly illogical analogy, even by your standards. I do think great stamina, over the course of a 48-minute game or a long playoff series, is underrated quality of the greats. But playing 25-35 minutes in a hoops game, three times a week, with constant play stoppages, timeouts, and TV timeouts, is precisely nothing like sprinting in a marathon. I suspect if you polled NBA players, all of them would say they perform better when they get regular minutes than when they have to come off the bench, cold, for short stints. Did you miss this bit, from the article OlympicMike linked? “Given more playing time, players have a chance to get warm and play through their mistakes instead of constantly watching the bench and waiting for their coach to pull them from the game.”

The obvious reason players don’t get worse as their minutes increase is they’d get benched so you’d never have the crappiness translate into long term stats, players that get better earn the increased minutes, and do better inspite of them not because of them.

LOL. A nice theory, but like a lot of the stuff you assert, not remotely based on reality. Sometime you should ask LeBron James if he thinks he’d play better if he only played 8 minutes a game.

eg, ie, ad hoc etc..

I think the term you’re looking for is ooma: “out of my a**” ;-)

Another way to look at is if players could just get better by playing more minutes every team would only play 5 guys every game and would pray for overtime so those five could get even better.

Sigh. Again, we’re not talking about the standard 30-40 minutes starters play v. playing 48 minutes. We’re talking about sporadic v. regular PT. From everything I’ve read, players’ per minute performance tends to stay constant or show a slight improvement with regular PT. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I’d love to read it, so long as the source isn’t “ooma.”

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 9, 2009 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

We’re talking about sporadic v. regular PT.

   Hi sweetpea, I think the original assertion was players get better with increased playing time with no conditions on the amount of increase? Let’s narrow it down to once a player is warmed up does his per minute performance get better per minute? My opinion was no, cause one has to think about pace instead of playing hard for a short time, that’s why we see subs in a game. The high school kid figured this out so why can’t the GSofM experts? The stats just show that better players get more minutes, if the crappy players got more minutes they’d just be crappier. ad hoc. et al..

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 11, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am always amazed when someone presents their opinion as the bulk of their evidence for something that is entirely an empirical question.

by jae on Jun 11, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am always amazed when someone presents their opinion as the bulk of their evidence for something that is entirely an empirical question.

You don’t need a weather report to feel which way the wind blows. Sometimes you gotta go with your observations.
   Evidence is only as good as the interpretation of it.
  Why do you think already good players get more playing time…to make them better or because they have improved? If someone is charting this player time and performance what do you think the data would show, that good players get better by playing more minutes or that even better players get to play more minutes? Which would make more sense from a biological standpoint?

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 12, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Better players get more playing time. This DOES NOT mean that players who do not get more playing time would not perform better than they have if their playing time was increased. And actually, this is exactly what the data say. It really doesn’t look like you’ve been listening at all. It sounds like you’ve missed or just decided to ignore the links posted discussing this phenomenon.

The evidence cited was that players who have their playing time increased in cases where a player ahead of them on a depth chart cannot play do better than their short time minutes would suggest they should. Unless you believe an injury to a starter immediately endows the reserve with greater ability, this does not fit to your pattern of the improved play leading the increase in playing time. Did you not hear this the first time? It doesn’t appear that you did. Please, pay attention to what has actually been presented. It is infinitely more interesting than the parody you retort with.

Evidence is only as good as the interpretation, but it uses evidence. You appear to have a conclusion and are going to put your fingers firmly in your ears at any suggestion that the conclusion you had ahead of time might be incomplete.

by jae on Jun 12, 2009 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you not hear this the first time?

  Haha, Probably not , there’s so many words and so little time.

 “Unless you believe an injury to a starter immediately endows the reserve with greater ability, this does not fit to your pattern of the improved play leading the increase in playing time.”
   
      Doesn’t the injury to a starter mean the reserve has more attention paid to his skills in the practice and game plans? That instead of just burning more calories is more likely to be the reason his performance per minute increases?

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 12, 2009 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why don’t you actually read the article.

by jae on Jun 12, 2009 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

but maybe if you get the weather report and it says there was no wind, you’ll realize you were just sitting in front of a fan. Perceptions are not always correct.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 16, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the original assertion was players get better with increased playing time with no conditions on the amount of increase?

Come on, Skep. The original premise was that players on the whole do not get worse with increased PT. The “no conditions” part (i.e. your 48-minute reductio ad absurdum) was a shameless and disingenuous ploy by you to turn a somewhat reasonable debate into an inane one.

My opinion… [snip]

See jae’s comment above.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 11, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll link the article for him again. I don’t think Skeptic bothered with it the first time:

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=501

The study covers players who see immediate increase in PT due conditions like starters ahead of them going down. For what it’s worth, Berri has examined similar situations and found exactly the same thing.

Unless we’re talking about the absurd conditions of running a player into the ground with fatigue it doesn’t look like there’s a phenomenon of player quality declining with increased PT at all. This notion that players can ‘go all out’ on short time minutes to pad stats, no matter how “logical” Skep thinks it is, doesn’t appear to be real anywhere but inside his head.

by jae on Jun 12, 2009 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll link the article for him again. I don’t think Skeptic bothered with it the first time:

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=501

I’m always surprised how many people are more eager to argue a point than they are to actually expose themselves to some new evidence that may challenge their understanding of the game.

Am I the only one that gets a little excited when my preconceptions are challenged? It’s not so bad being wrong. I wouldn’t have believed this was true before I read more about it, but at this point I think it’s pretty safe to take this as good evidence that there is no reason to expect a players per minute numbers to suffer given more playing time (assuming that there was a significant sample size to begin with).

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 12, 2009 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I wouldn’t have believed this was true before I read more about it, but at this point I think it’s pretty safe to take this as good evidence that there is no reason to expect a players per minute numbers to suffer given more playing time

Same here. The Brandan Wright v. LaMarcus Aldridge discussion we had a long time ago really opened my eyes.

Thing A

by sam23 on Jun 16, 2009 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...

I think that was right around the time it started being thrown around a bit more. That reminds me, where have onlxn and WS110 been lately? Don’t tell me they have better things to do than argue about basketball all day. ; )

Thing 2

by olympicmike on Jun 17, 2009 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll link the article for him again. I don’t think Skeptic bothered with it the first time:

 thanks, I think I can find it now.

Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 12, 2009 10:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Told you Crawford is a goner!

Peace!

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by FLAxwless on Jun 24, 2009 1:29 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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