Just a thought..
by iBallGSW on Jul 12, 2009 4:59 AM PDT
Email
PrintI KNOW people have been making plenty of comments/posts on trades. I thought another one wouldn't hurt since it is the off-season and much can happen.
One of the trades I would LOVE to see happen(however unlikely it may be), is a trade for Detriot's Tayshaun Prince.
Through ESPN's Trade Machine, I've concocted a positive outcome for both teams however it may come across on the trade machine's +/- wins column. I'll show you why.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=m2adhh
Going to the Pistons are the contracts of Wright (1 year, $2.1 mil.), Maggette (4 years, $8.9 mil), Belinelli (1 year, $1.5 mil), and Turiaf (2 years,$4.1 mil). Opposite coming here would be the concracts of Prince (2 years, $10.3 mil.) and Brown (1 year, $ 4 mil.) .
Next will be the pros and cons for both teams regarding the trades.
WARRIORS-
Pros: Just the fact that we get a player of Tayshaun's calibur, a package consisting of length(7 ft. 3 wingspan), defensive ability (NBA all-defensive second team 2004-2008), height (6 ft. 9), shooting ability (39% from 3 last year/ career: 37%) clutch factor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1ob8mNDcNk), not to mention playoff experience. At 6-9 he can play ANY position from the 2 - 5 spots within Nellie's system on both offense and defense. Kwame is a dud factor and more of a roster balancer than an aquistion. He could find time at the 5 possibly but won't fare well in the up and down game especially with his offensive repertoire (or lack thereof.). This trade also opens up rotation spots pretty much from the 2 guard on up. Playing time for Randolph, Buike, and Morrow will open up drastically. The log jam at the 2 and 3 will be less of a wall with two rotation tweeners gone (Maggette & Belinelli) allowing Monta to stay put at the 2 and Jackson alloting time as a point-foward. Overall, it would help our backcourt the most (the guard logjam is killing our chemistry). It would also chop about $3 mil. off the blocks this year and even more in the future. Money we need especially with us being almost $9 mil. above the cap.
Cons: We're giving one of BEST weak-side shot blockers/ energy man/ back up centers in the league. That ladies and gentlemen, yes, is none other than my main man Ronny Turiaf. I love the guy, his positive outlook even last year during a bum season kept our hopes up (well, mine anyways) and his defensive tenacity was amazing (something we need more of Defense). He's got a great heart and humbleness about him. I didn't hear him complaining about his former Lakers winning a ring AFTER he left. Wright is going to have a stable career at least and his per is better than anyone involved in the trade. He blocks shots and is an offensive rebounding freak, has got a nose for the ball and is young enough to improve. He also has that baby sky hook ala Kareem that I love in his low post game. He just needs some of Ronny's fire. Maggs and Beli are expendable in my eyes, though I like them both as individual players, I just don't think they fit best with our guard jammed team. They're the guards/fowards I would feel inclined to start a trade with first.
PISTONS:
Pros: First off they're getting Ronny Turiaf who was 3rd in blocks last year with 2.1 bpg. Not the greatest of rebounders, but he's definitely not a defensive liabilty. He has the ability to play either the 4 or the 5 and he gives them frontcourt depth something they're now lacking with Sheed' going "green". He has a decent face-up shot and doesn't force the issue on offense. His passion for the game will help replace that which they lost with Sheed' (with less Technicals, lol) and seems like a great teammate. They also get Brandan Wright (who I think has a chance at MIP this coming year) to help fortify the 4 slot and would be decent and surely effective starter for the team. His PER comparitively is almost 4 full points better than Tayshaun's (Wright-18.8, Prince-15.1). He shoots a high percentage both fg wise and ft wise (Wright 53% fg 74%ft, Maxiell 57%fg 53%ft) so you can keep him in during the 4th. He has ideal length and height for a 4 (6ft 10, 7 ft 4 wingspan) and will pack on pounds with age and weight training. The additions of Maggette and Belinelli with provide backcourt depth and scoring off the bench. Unlike A.I., Corey has proved willingness and the ability to come off the bench and be efficient. Also, think of how much Marco can learn under Rip's wing. He has the ability to become a great off-the-ball scorer with his stroke and distrubutor off fakes and drives. Trading Prince will open up PT for rookie Austin Daye a 6ft 11 lanky point-foward with Tayshaunesque playing style and appearance. Really though check it out...
Prince's Apprentice/ Replacement anyone? I would definitely say so..
Lastly, they get rid of Kwame who's been more of a lackluster starter and playing time eater than an NBA player.
Cons: Losing Tayshaun will be a big blow to Detriot signifying pretty much a COMPLETE roster change since their glory days back in 04'..
They're defense won't be the same, though we saw that last year and they're losing they're "now" most clutch player IMO.
Now, as to WHY they would do it..
WARRIORS: They need to get rid of some guards and bring in better defensive players. Prince won't answer ALL our prayers, but he will damn sure answer some of them. He won't be our 3rd or 4th scoring option, but who says we need that with Monta "Moped" Ellis, Stephen "Action" Jackson, and Stephen "Draino Max" Curry jacking up shots and blowing by defenders every game. We can put him on a Kobe or a Lebron and trust that he'll make life hard for them. Length+Height+Quickness+Tenacity= Badass D
PISTIONS: Defense hasn't been much of a problem, without taking last year's playoff changing moves into account. The Pistons need more scorers, which is why the Villanueva and Gordon moves were important. With this they get Maggette to use either as a trade tool or a 6th man and Wright presumably as the back up 4 behind Charlie V. It also allows Rip to move to the 3 to play alongside B.G.(Ben Gordon) whom at 6-7 can play the 3. They get a much better 5 in Turiaf and add passion and fire to a dimming Auburn Hills Palace along with him. Turiaf will play the Kendric Perkins role to a stud team much like the Celtics have by providing defensive intangibles and elite shot-blocking ability. They will definitely be a playoff contender following the trade with a STACKED roster, no doubt.
I think it would work though I'm not an expert on salary caps and trade limitations ( I suppose one of the resident stats/numbers freaks could jump in on that one, Jae?)
Any thoughts or opinions? Here's the always enjoyable POLL by the way-
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
44 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
1. I can’t see what the trade is. This always happens to me with links to the Trade Machine (a Mac thing, maybe?) I think I can figure out the basic principals based on your comments, but Is it that hard to just write the trade out? It’s not like ESPN needs the hits.
2. Assuming it’s Maggs-plus-for-Prince that deal has been discussed hundreds of times on this site … though in fairness, if you’re proposing “throwing in” Turiaf, you’re offering more than most people have.
3. Assuming Maggs+Wright+Turiaf for Prince+Kwame, I absolutely hate that deal for us. I like Prince OK, but I think he’s probably one of the most overrated players in the NBA. It’s a bit like the Derek Fisher thing — If he didn’t have a ring, would anyone covet him? I’m sure he’s a better defender than any wing player we have, but looking at his mediocre plus/minus, rebounding, and steal/block numbers, it’s hard for me to believe he’s really an ace defender. I guess I think of him as a homeless man’s Kirilenko — which sounds sort of OK, till you consider that the margin between Kirilenko and guys like Maggs and Wright isn’t that huge to begin with. When you start talking about a less efficient, worse rebounding, worse passing version of Kirilenko who doesn’t block shots or force steals … that margin for me disappears almost totally.
Basically, I’d call Maggette v Prince a close call if their salaries were equal. Tayshaun’s a better defender and passer, but Maggs is much more efficient from the floor and a better rebounder. The fact that Tayshaun’s contract is two years shorter (although a couple mil more expensive annually) might tip the balance in his favor slightly, but not nearly enough to make it worth it to “throw in” two cheap, young, productive big men. Heck, I’d take Turiaf over Tayshaun Prince straight up. Ditto Brandan Wright.
4. Can we stop with the “I am total moron for disagreeing with the diarist” poll option? It’s much more irritating than funny.
There will be no extra point!
"I’m sure he’s a better defender than any wing player we have..."
actually that’s the worst thing about this trade: we actually have one of the small handful of players in the league that could conceivably reproduce that skill at the 3 in randolph! of course, like randolph, prince would probably spend all of his time on the court playing the 4…
introducing the teensey-tiniest, itty-bitty backcourt in nba history: monta ellis and brandon jennings! 80-win season here we come!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 12, 2009 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I can’t see what the trade is. This always happens to me with links to the Trade Machine (a Mac thing, maybe?)
I think so, I can never see them either. Can everyone start writing the deals out instead of/in addition to posting the trade machine link?
Thing A
I see your point
on that Prince might be “over-rated” in some people’s eyes, but I think he has better intangibles than most people seem to notice. His PER might not be through the roof, but with his shooting ability he spreads the floor better than Maggs does as a slasher and can be more of a facilitator than Maggs can ever or will ever be. Maggs is also another tweener scorer, something we have loads of scoring tweeners with sub-par defensive playmaking ability. He’s not a volume shooter and knows when and where to take his shots. We need to open up PT for other players, specifically the talent we drafted. Also, trading away $17 mil. + along with Maggette’s (IMO overpaid) 4 years at $8.9 mil is a WAY better trade-off for a 2 year Prince and a 1 year Kwame at just over $14.3 mil. We don’t even have to play Kwame. Another thing is that I partially explained who was involved in the trade right after the link (leading to my assumption that you didn’t really read the whole article) including years left on contract and salaries individually. It probably is a MAC thing since the link works just fine for me on a PC still.
My whole thing on the poll was to show that really a MAJORITY of the fans, including myself on certain ideas, are too afraid to trade away a part of our young core for a veteran and defensive presence and would rather keep our flashy scorers. Maggette, as much of an “efficient” scorer he seems to be, doesn’t contribute in anything but scoring. Now let’s be honest with ourselves in understanding that we drafted Stephen Curry, another scoring tweener guard, are we really going to need Maggette in the future?
Should we ever pull through with the trade, (which I’m not saying it will) sure we might lose Turiaf but at a better price than you think we might. Him leaving gives up those 21 minutes he played at the 4 and 5, not to mention the 17 mpg Brandan played for during the 39 healthy games he played. 38 minutes theoretically, to give up to our young gunners Randolph at the 4 and 5 slots in particular and Prince at the 4.
As for your “over-rating” of Tayshaun Prince, how do you over-rate a 4 year running All-NBA Defensive second team player? How do you over-rate a guy who can LEGITIMATELY guard pretty much all 5 positions? I hope you’re not basing it solely off his PER, which is more based on offense rather than defense. How do you rate clutchness in there? He performs BETTER in the post-season than in the regular season. He fits ideally in our system and is able to guard All-Star calibur players. You never saw the Pistons leavin Rip to defend Kobe or Billups to guard Lebron. The problem with our team is that we have too much scoring and not enough defense. I’m not a Prince fanatic, nor do I think he is a top 5 talent, but I do think he’s and improvement over Jackson’s (& Maggs’) passing skills, Jackson’s(& Maggs’) defensive awareness and playmaking skills, heck he even plays with more passion than Maggette. I also think that by cutting Maggette’s not only fat, long and more unearned contract in trade for Prince’s measly 2 year deal, will help more in the future, which is what in turn we’re aiming for.
- iBall, do you?
your problem is you put Turiaf in the trade. if you want your trade to be supported, you can’t put in the good back up big man on a bargain contract.
by homer simpson on Jul 12, 2009 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
How do you over-rate a 4 year running All-NBA Defensive second team player?
Er: by naming him to the All-Defensive team four straight years, despite mediocre rate numbers and plus-minus numbers that indicated that last season he hurt the Pistons slightly when he was on the floor? (though in fairness, up till last season he was pretty solid). Indeed, what better way to measure “overratednes” than to compare a player’s actual numbers to subjective achievements like all-star teams, all-defensive teams, and number of internet diaries in which he gets gratuitously name-checked?
He performs BETTER in the post-season than in the regular season.
This is false, ALL CAPS notwithstanding. In the playoffs, he has picked up marginally more rebounds per minute, marginally fewer points and assists, and has been less efficient from the floor (.530 to .513 TS%). The last time we saw him in the playoffs, he was completely crapping the bed: a -0.4 PER in four pathetic games v. the Cavs. (I didn’t know it was possible to have a negative PER!) Fortunately, he’d be a Warrior, so who really cares that he sucks in the playoffs… ;-P
The problem with our team is that we have too much scoring and not enough defense.
I’d agree with this, mostly. One of the biggest problems with the Warriors is lack of defense. (Too much scoring isn’t really a problem in the NBA, last time I checked). I just don’t think Prince, a decent 4th or 5th man who’s showing some vague signs of decline, is the answer.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 12, 2009 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I think he has better intangibles than most people seem to notice.
“Intangibles” have a funny way of disappearing when someone is no longer surrounded by good players on a well coached team that is winning games.
As for your "over-rating" of Tayshaun Prince, how do you over-rate a 4 year running All-NBA Defensive second team player?
You overrate him by assuming that when taken out of a system that emphasizes defense he’ll continue to be effective. You overrate him by assuming that he’ll be as effective a defensive player at 30 as he was at 25 and 26 (and note that he’s slipped out of that spot at this point). You overrate him by forgetting that the “All-NBA Defensive” tend to reward reputation even when someone’s game has slipped below the point where that reputation is still deserved.
How do you rate clutchness in there? He performs BETTER in the post-season than in the regular season.
You rate ‘clutchness’ by noting if he plays statistically significantly differently in ‘clutch’ situations than he does at other times. Few players (none?) actually do when you examine it closely. We remember ‘clutch’ moments and tend to forget how many opportunities it takes to get those ‘clutch’ moments and as a species, we’re prone to trying to give meaning to random events. In terms of his actual statistics, he hasn’t been better in the post-season. He hasn’t shot better or rebounded better, certainly. That’s not surprising for many players since the average competition in the playoffs is higher, but let’s not reward him for something that doesn’t actually appear to be true.
SCurry/Marco
Monta/Morrow
Jack/Maggette/Azu
AR/Wright
Beans/Turiaf
Don't trade Stephen Curry Movement
With Jackson and Maggette both getting the bulk of their minutes at the 3, Buike wouldn’t see the floor. Bumping Jackson to the 2 makes his rebounding play a whole lot better, gets 1 really good 3 point shooter (Buike) into the starting lineup, and eliminates the undersizedness of the starting backcourt. Even if you’re one of the “Belinelli is our best PG!!!!” crazy people, you have to see that the benefits of giving his minutes in your proposed rotation to Azubuike far outweigh the benefits of having a slightly better version of JJ Redick and a rookie sharing the bulk of the PG minutes.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 12, 2009 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
its more like...
monta/curry
jack morrow
buike/maggette
randolph/wright
bedrins/ronnie
by m0rr0w-f0r-3 on Jul 12, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Monta,Jack,Prince,Randolph,Biedrins?
SKINNY but effective.
I’m not willing to part with Turiaf though,he’s our 6th man behind our 6th man.
maybe if we threw in… … Claxton instead of Turiaf,we’ll have to make the trade mid-season then.
Its time for a change...
by RunNdGun on Jul 12, 2009 1:33 PM PDT reply actions
I’m not willing to part with Turiaf though,he’s our 6th man behind our 6th man.
I think Turiaf is a bit of deal breaker in this proposed trade too, but that made me laugh. Perhaps some people are so unwilling to give up Belinelli because he’s the 6th man behind the 6th man behind the 6th man behind the 6th man behind the 6th man behind our 6th man?
Thing A
god...I wonder how it is back there.
Its time for a change...
by RunNdGun on Jul 12, 2009 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions
The reason why I hate this idea:
Rebounding, plain and simple.
Tayshaun is a worse rebounder that Mags, even if he just plays the 3. If you talk about him playing the 4 or 5 he becomes a huge liability, easily counterbalancing his other possible defensive advantages.
If we lose Turiaf, who’s our backup 5? Saying that prince can play 5 is a non starter, since we need, if anything, to get Steiner inside.
Even if his intangibles are real, his liabilities and the sudden lack of depth at 5 are too important to ignore. This trade is an easy no.
by Ronaldinho on Jul 12, 2009 2:42 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Typo:
Steiner = stronger. Damn autocorrect
by Ronaldinho on Jul 12, 2009 3:14 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
To be honest
I dont even trade Maggs for Prince straight up. Prince is still a good player but I dont see him being a good fit with Nellie ball. Plus Jackson is just as talented defender as Prince is now.
never realized how much daye and prince looked a like
Stop.......... Hammertime!!!!!
by MR. Bigshot 123 on Jul 12, 2009 10:15 PM PDT reply actions
We are not punk b---ches
Some of these trade proposals I see make it look like we’re desperate. Let’s give up everyone for Teyshawn Prince ?!!!??! We need him that badly? He’s going to grab 13 rebounds a night and hold down the post?
I LOVE the fact that Nellie and Riley haven’t jumped the gun and overpaid for Amare or anyone else.
This team, now healthy, is BETTER than the team that won 48 (46?) and missed the playoffs.
It’s best to get the season under way and really see what the W’s needs are and make a midseason deal.
This team could win 50 games as is (even if Curry makes no impact).
This team, now healthy, is BETTER than the team that won 48 (46?) and missed the playoffs.
smoking does bad things to your memory, and your reasoning …
On what planet is this team a 50-win team?
What superstars do we have right that will lead the team on the floor into 50 victories? I like your optimism, but calling this a 50-win team deserves a…
by IQofaWarrior on Jul 12, 2009 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
We're not a 50-win team, but we're also not as bad as some thing we are.
Assuming Ellis returns to form, Mags isn’t as good as Baron was, but the difference is smaller than most people think. (Maggette is actually a very good player – he’s just overpaid, and not the best fit).
In the interim, Biedrins has improved a little, Turiaf is a better backup 5 than we had, and Randolph is better than Harrington or Pietrus was.
In other words, the difference between the talent on this team and that team is – if Ellis returns to form – pretty small. And that’s assuming Curry is a non-factor this year.
Obviously, there are balance and coaching issues. Can Nellie get these guys to play defense? Can we figure out who’s going to be the primary distributor? Replacing Baron with Maggette makes it harder for us to put our best players on the floor together, as we now have three starters who’s natural position is either the 2 or the 3 and none who’s natural position is the 1.
and not the best fit.
and Baron was.
with Baron, the dubs committed 1082 while forcing 1384. last season we committed 1201 & only forced 1229. Baron limited the team’s TOs by protecting the ball and helped the team run by forcing TO’s (i believe he was 1st & 2nd in steals in the NBA in his last 2 Warriors’ seasons).
Corey is a good offensive player, but there are two huge differences between him & Baron. one is the attention they garner. most of the time, you have to have all 5 defenders watching Baron – this makes the game easier for everyone else. the other is the position they play. guys like Nash, CP3, Deron and Chauncey have shown that no other position outside of maybe a dominant big has the effect that a good PG can bring a team just b/c a PG can make all the mismatched pieces suddenly fit.
by homer simpson on Jul 13, 2009 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let’s get away from the “should we do this trade” discussion a little bit and consider the following:
How do we think Price will perform on the Warriors, assuming we trade for him?
I really like the idea of Prince on the Warriors. I think Nellie can use him well. Offensively, I understand that Prince has not been an efficient scorer in the past – but with the right coach/system I see him as a hugely efficient scorer waiting to happen. He shoots a good percentage from 3 and a solid percentage from the line, so his problem is the proportion of 2’s he shoots. Use him right – where he spreads the court with his shooting, posts up smaller guys if he has a mismatch, and slashes only when there’s a good opportunity and I think he’d be an asset on offense.
Defensively I think we could really use his versatility and on ball D. I believe Prince is a very good on ball defender, mostly due to his length (so he’ll likely age well in that regard), and will continue to be one on the Warriors. The biggest asset I see is his ability to defend multiple positions. He’ll be playing the 3 (we have Biedrins, Randolph, Turiaf, Wright already), and will help us play the We Believe style D of switching everything. However, he’s never created many turnovers, which was a big part of the We Believe team’s success.
As for rebounding, based on previous discussions it seems there’s no reason to think he’ll improve. So we’re looking at a guy who gets a little bit more than 5 per 36. Not sure what the average is for 3’s, so anyone that knows is welcome to inform us. My guess is that’s slightly below average for the 3, but assuming we have Randolph/Biedrins starting, I can live with that.
In the end I see Prince being a good fit on the Warriors and I think he’ll perform very well on both sides of the ball for us, though he may hurt us a little bit on the boards.
You say if Prince just shoots less, he'll hurt us less ...
… but the Warriors, right now, are one of the worst teams in the league as far as players-shooting-only-when-they-should.
Nellie is completely unwilling to push back on a veteran player who shoots too much. Prince, on the other hand, has played on some pretty solid, disciplined teams.
So the notion that somehow Nellie is going to turn him into a guy who shoots less strikes me as pretty unbelievable.
Well, just to be clear, I’m saying if Prince shoots less 2 pointers, he’ll hurt us less. Prince shooting 3’s and FT’s = good.
Obviously you could be right about Nellie, but I think there’s a reasonable argument to be made that Nellie puts his players in good positions to take good shots. Last year was as much a product of not having any better options as it was players taking bad shots. With Ellis out, who did that leave to create good shots on offense? We didn’t really have the personel for anything better. Look at Baron’s improvement in that area after Nellie showed up. I don’t know if Prince will actually improve significantly in that department, but I think you’re way offbase in just dismissing that possibility on the basis of Nellie not knowing how to get players to take good shots.
by Missing Barry on Jul 13, 2009 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
We didn’t really have the personel for anything better
sometimes when coaches don’t have players who can get their own shots well enough, they, you know, run a play to get them an open look coming off a screen or two …
not a dig on you, just frustrated that a coach as obviously good as Nelson is doesn’t make the game easier for his players when the game gets difficult – that’s what good coaches at every level do
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"
Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Most Commented
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Video: Boston works in a half-court football snap after winning the tip
- Judging the choices for the Eastern Conference All-Star team reserves
- Judging the choices for the Western Conference All-Star team reserves
- Jeremy Lin draws inspiration from Tim Tebow
- Stephen Jackson is already tired of Milwaukee
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
