Wolves v. Warriors: Can we come together on some trade ideas?
So I am a Wolves fan (Take it easy on me!) and I noticed that the Warriors have a glut of SFs and a lack of PFs. While a few of your SFs can play PF it is usually out of position. Of course Nellie's system makes it a little easier to make it happen (especially with tweeners like Randolph, Wright, and Jackson who are tall enough but can't defend the post well enough against bigger guys). The Wolves on the other hand have a handful of PFs (expiring contracts to boot) and a lack of SFs. Again, we have guys like Gomes who can play both, but he is out of position against faster SFs and bigger PFs.
Basically, I wanted your guys' opinions on what you think would be a *fair* trade to work out where you get to rent some PFs (with expiring contracts), maybe a draft pick, and maybe the rights to a supposedly highly skilled PF/C overseas (Pekovic- supposedly redundant with Al Jefferson and Kevin Love, but comparable to Love I would assume talent wise) to fill roster holes while opening up money for FA next year and we get a SF or two out of your 5 (I am counting the three above plus Azubuike and Maggette).
What do you think? I want some ideas from the "other side of the fence" because I can postulate what you need based on your roster and record, but only you guys know for sure what that is. On the other side of that coin, keep in mind some Wolves needs when you make these suggestions: everything but PG and PF...ehhh.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
1 recs |
166 comments
Comments
You guys could use Corey Maggette.
Who can we have in return?
by crab dribble cocktail on Jul 22, 2009 5:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
For Maggette
We will take back Anthony Randolph
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about Maggette for Etan Thomas and a 2010 first round pick?
You get a scoring wing and we get the “beef” Riley has been looking for plus future cap relief and a pick.
by warriOs on Jul 22, 2009 5:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that’d be nice, I will even do Etan Thomas and a 2010 2nd rounder.
by FeartheBeard4 on Jul 22, 2009 5:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ok but we're not complete morons
We don’t want Maggette’s awful 4 year contract with nothing in return.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 5:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If you can get a better deal than Maggette who is a 20ppg scorer (can’t pass to save his life though) and is rather effiecient getting those 20ppg for Etan Thomas who is a scrub plus a future pick that might not end up any better player than Maggette than go ahead and take it.
Maggette’s contract looks worse to us as fans because like you said we have too many SF. But he is still a pretty good scorer and is not as bad as most people perceive him to be around here.
by warriOs on Jul 22, 2009 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It depends on what your team is trying to accomplish.
I think it would be a terrible fit especially with Rubio coming over soon. Maggette is a great sixth man or a great instant offense but he needs the ball in his hand to do this. Rubio is a pretty ball dominant pg(not bad) and he sets up most people or initiates the offense but you would need maggette to have the ball to be efficent . however Rubio is good at finding people so he would probably get maggette some easy baskets
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about we don't bog ourselves down
with his terrible contract and black hole playing style. He even complains when he is the 6th man. Iverson and Maggette both do that and no body wants Iverson now. I would take Maggette if he had 1 or maybe 2 years on his contract, but not with 4 years at 9, 11, 12, 13ish per year? Awful. Etan Thomas was a terrific defender before his health issues and if he can get some or most of that back I would seriously consider keeping him over Maggette if they had equal contracts. Plus, if I had a top 10 first rounder and I had no idea what any players would turn out like except for a player that ended up like Maggette with his personality and play style, I would take the question marks any day.
Anyways, I am not in David Kahn’s inner circle so you don’t have to waste your time trying to convince me cuz even if you somehow showed me that Maggette was worth half his contract, David Kahn seems to have a decent amount of intelligence.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where did you hear that Maggette complains about being the 6th man?
That’s probably the first time I’ve heard of that since he started coming off the bench. Probably he complained while with LAC, but it seems that Nellie has convinced him to take the role and we’ve had yet to hear a peep from him.
by WYK on Jul 22, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggs welcomes the 6th man part, which was a surprise I have to admit
Of course at his salary…
by mosdl on Jul 22, 2009 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He most definitely complained while in LA
I too am surprised that he hasn’t with you guys, maybe he is happy with his money thinking it means he is appreciated or realizing that he is now 0/2 on teams wanting him as a starter and that might say something about him…
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well let's put it this way, 6th man
but it was the clippers, not tryna diss them, but i can see why.
2009-2010 chef's menu:
Buike Burgers
Stack Jacks (singles, doubles, triples)
Beans
Magnuggets
Randolph's Red light specials
Stephen's Curry
Ronny-O's
Bwright's Blocks of Brownies
CJ (calmansi juice, free refills courtsey of AMMO)
Monta's Mississippi Milkshake
by seven72deuce on Jul 24, 2009 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea Kahn seems real smart.....
Thats why he drafted two point guards with back to back picks…..ooops. The guy seems lost and lucky to have a gm job in my opinion.
by pbra17 on Jul 23, 2009 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see what all the fuss is about. Everyone loves it when teams draft one of each position and pretend that that is going to be their future all-star lineup, but in reality teams at the bottom need to make the best of their picks. If that involves taking two guys back-to-back at the same position, so be it.
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 23, 2009 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’m still struggling to understand why everyone thinks thats such an awful move. I probably would’ve taken Rubio and Curry, but I certainly don’t blame them for the strategy they took
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 23, 2009 11:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
All things considered, the Wolves took the BPA at #5 and then followed that with arguably the most NBA-ready PG in the draft. Definitely not a bad move at all, especially now that it looks likely that Rubio won’t be in the NBA yet for at least another year.
by WYK on Jul 24, 2009 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially now that it looks likely that Rubio won’t be in the NBA yet for at least another year.
news? he’s leaving joventut for sure, what makes you think its unlikely he’ll be in Minnesota?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 24, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not doubting he’ll be in Minnesota, I’m doubting whether or not he’ll be motivated to come stateside to play this coming season. Minnesota can only help pay off $500,000 of his $6.6 million buyout, with rumors that it’s recently gone up to $7.7 million. Do you think Rubio would want to come to the NBA and use most, if not all, of his rookie-scale money on the buyout? He’ll essentially be playing three years for free in a small market city… it’s hardly an ideal situation for a kid who’s been a pro since age 14 and is looking to make it big.
On one hand you can say he’ll absolutely love the opportunity to play in the NBA, so maybe he wouldn’t mind coming to Minnesota right away. But realistically money is the driving force for a lot of young players’ decisions, and other foreign teams can offer him a lot more money with Childress-like opt out options to stay overseas. It won’t have the glitz and glam of being an NBA superstar, but he’ll be getting paid while still having the opportunity to come along a little later than initially planned.
by WYK on Jul 24, 2009 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TalkBasket.com is reporting that Ricky Rubio, selected with the fifth pick in the 2009 NBA Draft by the Timberwolves, could sign a two-year contract with Real Madrid.
Earlier this week Rubio said he planned to part ways with his Spanish basketball club DKV Joventut.
espn insider
Rubio’s buyout is the problem since NBA teams(the TWolves in this situation) can only chip in 500,000 of his 6.2 million buy out where Real Madrid can pay the whole thing. I would still make a Curry/Wright trade for the rights of Rubio and see if we can get him 2 years from now. The kid will still be only 20 years old.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Jul 25, 2009 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HB
Monta, biedrins for Al Jefferson,Rubio,Flynn, and future firsts
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 5:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
because you guys will have top 5 picks for a long time!!!
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like we did this year?
Or for that matter, besides last year when is the last time we have had a top 5 pick (minus trading for it this year)? 1996?
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow our best guard and our only real center for who?
(I got to get me a thumbs down pic)
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
for al jefferson, rubio, flynn, and future firsts
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well OK, I guess that MAY work.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how bout belinelli and maggette for Etan Thomas and draft pick
by FeartheBeard4 on Jul 22, 2009 6:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maggette and Wright for Etan Thomas and Gomes
I don’t know if the contracts work but that would be nice. What do you think mplax?
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
by dubzfan on Jul 22, 2009 6:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
OK I guess the real question is who do YOU want and at what price?
Do realize that our “glut” of wings ain’t really all that spectacular. We have Maggette who is good at what he does but you don’t seem to want him, Buki, who is showing a good outside shot and has a good contract but little else, and then who? Jackson? I don’t think the Wolves would use him to the best of his abilities as he’s more of a 2 and you just drafted what? 3 tweeners?
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 6:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I am not going to say
Until I hear some responses first. And reading your last post about Biedrins and Ellis for Jefferson, Flynn, Rubio and future first*s* being a bad trade? I don’t know if I will suggest anything short of a get out of jail free card for Maggette’s contract. I wouldn’t take Maggette for Thomas even if the Wolves were the ones getting a future first.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know that Ellis trade was probably just a joke
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
by dubzfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know that Ellis trade was probably just a joke?
I hate my typo’s. How about Wright and Marco for Gomes and Thomas?
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
by dubzfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do realize it was a joke
But the response to it baffled me. Salaries dont match in that trade. Did you also mean to include Maggette? In that case, no…otherwise, we are getting somewhere if we can figure out the details (you know….10 million dollars worth of details ;) )
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t take Maggette for Thomas even if the Wolves were the ones getting a future first.
then we just aren’t gonna agree on anything. If you need a 3 and wing scoring so desperately but won’t take one of the most efficient scoring 3s in the league AND a pick for an expiring contract then what exactly were you thinking with this fanpost? Did you think we would want to just give you guys Buike or Morrow for Gomes or what? I’m as down on Maggette’s contract as anyone on GSoM, but the guy is way better than anything you have at the wings right now. I’m not saying the ideas suggested before are good deals for the Wolves, but you seem to be going just as far the other direction.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK I guess the real question is who do YOU want and at what price?
It’s obvious isn’t it? Randolph, Wright, Curry, Morrow and Biedrins for Brian Cardinal, some Ukrainian dude who just learned to tie his shoes, Craig Smith’s and Bassy Telfair’s abandoned jockstraps, and a truckload of snow…
No disrespect Mplax, but that is (more or less) the last proposed Wolves trade we heard in these parts.
For fun: how ’bout Curry for Rubio, straight up? Or Monta for Etan Thomas and Rubio?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 22, 2009 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Monta for Etan Thomas and Rubio?
seems like the most reasonable idea so far
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure if I would pull the trigger on that,
but seems pretty reasonable.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Jul 22, 2009 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’d take it. i’m not sure that the wolves pull the trigger though. seeing as warriorsscore110 and i seem to waver on opposite sides of the fence on that one, it’s probably as close to a real trade as we’ve seen so far.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jul 22, 2009 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing Wolves fans won’t love this one, but I think it makes both teams a little better:
Turiaf, Belinelli, Wright, Maggette for Love, Cardinal, Gomes
Wolves
Flynn/Rubio
Ellington/Belinelli
Maggette/Richardson/Brewer
Jefferson/Wright
Turiaf/Thomas
Warriors
Monta/Curry
Jackson/Morrow
Buike/Gomes
Randolph/Love/Gomes/Cardinal
Biedrins/Love
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 6:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
nope
you killed it when you said Turiaf
by Warriorfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
killed it when I said Turiaf? really? Love is already a better player than Turiaf man. I considered putting Biedrins’ name in there instead of Turiaf, but that seemed about as unfair for the Warriors as this one is for the TWolves. I like Turiaf, but if we’re basically getting their version or Anthony Randolph we have to give up something.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude, warrior fan
love>>>>>>turiaf. no disrespect. you realize love is one of the best rebounders this league has to offer and hes only 20.
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well unlike some i value Maggs as a 20 points scorer off the bench up for 6th man of the year and value turiaf as second leading blocker in the league a Defensive player of the year canidate. Wright and Belinelli as young talent so I put that in to account on the trade and had to say no even though Love is better then Turiaf. I value Turiaf so much because positive he does to the team on the court and for the team off the court if its going to cheer at Summer League games or Inspiring his teammates and fans he brings so many intangables(man i got a little carried away there lol).
by Warriorfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love is already one of the best passing and rebounding big men in the league. If Love was a warrior and turiaf played for the t-wolves you’d hate this trade a lot more than you do now.
I figured Maggette for Gomes and Cardinal’s expiring contrace is about even. Gomes is a very smart player but he doesn’t do anything particularly well. He’d fit well as a 3/4 combo that could play the 4 when Nellie wants to go small without giving up as much size as Maggette does now. Cardinal’s expiring would get us out of most of Maggette’s contract and I actually think Nelson might like the guy and play him a bit(not sure if thats a good thing) Maggette gives Minny a pretty good 3 and veteran scorer. He’s a pretty bad contract so that part of the swap probably favors us.
Minny gets 2 years of Belinelli and Wright and 3 years of Turiaf for 3 years of Love. All 4 guys involved in this part of a deal have great salaries. Love is is clearly the best player in the group but Belinelli gives them some more depth on the wing which they need and he’d actually get a chance to contribute on that team. Wright would probably get quite a bit of playing time behind and playing with Jefferson. A Jefferson/Love frontcourt never made a whole lot of sense to me and it seems like Turiaf and Wright could complement Jefferson pretty well. Both Turiaf and Wright are below average rebounders but both are young and Turiaf gives them a more defensive minded guy down low while Wright could collect more minutes there than he could here. I would love a frontcourt rotation of Love, Randolph and Biedrins. All 3 rebound very, very well, all 3 are very young, all have pretty unique offensive games, and really any combination of 2 of the 3 seem like they’d play well together.
I think the trade favors us a bit because we’d be getting the best young player in the deal, but I do think it could make the t-wolves better.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for some rational analysis
That being said, I’m not looking to pull off a blockbuster. I am just looking at 1 for 2 or 2 for 1 either way. I don’t really know who, I just wanted to see if anyone had a logical and realistic opinion with some nice analysis because none of these trades are gonna get done, but they are nice to discuss and talk about to see how maybe both teams can improve. The deal above would be the fairest I have seen yet, but Love is, as you said, untouchable unless we are pulling in a proven allstar/franchise type player. I would not trade Love for Randolph and you would not do the same for the exact same reasons. It’s possible that one of us (myself obviously, cuz I am in here and not the Wolves forum) is wrong. But its probable that we are both correct in keeping our pieces and building upon them and hopefully increasing team chemistry and fan loyalty.
That being said, any well thought out deals on a smaller scale? I was probably looking most at Azubuike or Brandan Wright when I came here, but it seems to me as if another team or waiting for FA will get the Wolves an equal or better player at a smaller price from what I have seen so far. Again…not like its gonna happen, I just wanted some ideas for fun.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would not trade Love for Randolph and you would not do the same for the exact same reasons
yea thats what I figured. I’d be open to trade ideas for Belinelli, Buike and Wright, but I think all your pieces are either too good (Jefferson, Rubio, Flynn, Love) or not good enough (expirings, Gomes) to get that kind of deal done unless you’d be open to a much more simple Belinelli for Gomes type swap.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha yeah
I didnt realize that you were one of few around here who didnt think GS was western conference allstar team! I figured Belinelli was expendable and would be a nice fit with us where we could each fill a hole. Belinelli played 20mpg last year and will not get close to that this year with Randolph taking minutes from Azubuike at the 3, Azubuike will move to more of a 2/3 role I assume with Curry and Ellis taking most or all of the minutes at the 1 and the leftovers at the 2. That sums up why I figured Belinelli was out and would be nice to trade for a one year rental at another position (or trade that person for someone else who is dumping expirings). Morrow fits in there somewhere too…. I dont know where, good luck with that haha. Forgot about him. Ok well change of plans. Randolph plays 3/4 with Jackson and Azubuike is a 3? Morrow plays the 2 with Curry and Ellis taking the leftovers? Then you have Biedrins at the 5 with Turiaf eating the leftover minutes there. Leading to…
Brandan Wright, who I figured could get minutes 3-5…..except there are not many to be had for a young player demanding minutes who will probably leave for a better situation in 2 years anyways (Assuming the option is for some reason taken this year).
This is why I thought some trades could be had between us. You guys clear your logjam at the 2-3 and we clear ours at the 1/4. Obviously we have our guys who are off limits and you have yours… which leads us to my original question: anyone have ideas? But I expect that I wont get too many solid answers because not many people here know many people beyond Jefferson, Love, Flynn, and Rubio. For instance, we have Nikola Pekovic overseas who analysts said was a GREAT pick by McHale last year (imagine that….), getting a [Euro proven] lottery level talent in the second round because people didnt want to wait for him. We have expirings to take on Maggette if the right deal came along….but we dont want Maggette as is and you dont think his contract is bad enough to send with a piece for expirings and other. Out of all of this I got one questioned answered: how much you want to get rid of Maggette (A: [unadmittedly] A LOT, but wont take the necessary steps to get it done).
Ideas? Or do we not discuss even relatively fair deals for both sides and pretend I never came here? Hint: If we take Maggette on we have to AT LEAST get rid of our only 2 year contract in Darius Songaila (4.5 mil per year or so).
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The real problem with Maggette is that he is simultaneously one of our two worst contracts and one of our best players. It makes it extremely difficult to gauge his trade value and his value to this team. I hated the signing but trading him for an expiring contract or two probably makes our team a whole lot worse. Personally I’d love to see both Jackson and Maggette shipped out just to create some cap flexibility and so Monta, Curry, Buike, Morrow and Randolph can gobble up those minutes but it does mean we’d essentially be committing ourselves to at least one or two more years without really being playoff contenders.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
On the subject of Jackson...
How about we trade him for Etan Thomas straight up? Then save Maggette for the Kirilenko deal suggested awhile back?
by WYK on Jul 22, 2009 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldnt of said it better sam,
I would love to get rid of Jackson and Maggete for nothing for the reasons you mentioned above, but we would become a much worse team immediately. If Minnesota would take back either of those guys plus Belinelli for expiring, that might work for both teams. Ryan Gomes would be a nice guy to have on our bench.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Jul 22, 2009 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think something along the lines of gomes+thomas for maggs+marco would actually be a decent deal for both teams. the wolves get a very productive 6th man and respectable rotation guard for very little. they win on the talent end by a long shot and with all their current cap space, they wouldn’t be in cap hell either. we get out of a long term deal to maggs and get a decent rotation guy in gomes, and a bench big who can fill in fairly well in thomas and become semi-factors in the free agent spending spree in 2010. i’d have to check the salaries (and trade machine has been failing on me recently), but that seems like a good starting point.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jul 23, 2009 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if I were a wolves fan, I think I’d do as well or better just hanging on to their expirings and add a ’10 FA to Rubio, Flynn, Love, Jeff, Gomes etc.
by hardcore on Jul 23, 2009 8:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that sounds good, but what ’10 free agent is Minnesota gonna land?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 23, 2009 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who cares, more to the point, what ’10 free agent is GSW gonna land?
by hardcore on Jul 23, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone who wants the MLE but can’t get it from another team.
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 23, 2009 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
when has he become untouchable
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Best response I have seen yet
Although I still don’t know if I would take on Maggette’s contract while getting rid of Love. I might be the only one who thinks so (as I am not the one trying to dump his contract like every other poster in here), but us taking on Maggette’s contract is doing you guys a favor and we need extra pieces for doing that, not you guys. If we are taking on Maggette, you better be giving up at least Randolph.
Also, I saw that response someone posted about your post in another topic… I think you are needed here to moderate some homerism. And I also don’t think your response did much damage to whoever you were responding to. Ignore that guy and post on!
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I realize no one wants to give up Randolph
And I don’t expect you to, but if you dont, then dont expect us to take Maggette.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The fact that you even bring up Randolphs name in a trade on a Warriors site is laughable. Hes more untouchable then Monta or anyone on our team. Now if you want buike we’ll take Love if you want Jackson we’ll take Jefferson anyone else you might be interested in
by Warriorfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you want Jackson we’ll take Jefferson
haha, I don’t even love Jefferson, but thats crazy talk Warriorfan.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if I was a Wolves fan I’d give that the Commodus thumbs down
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I ignored it altogether. Much the same as I ignored Azubuike for Love.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least you aren’t getting an inefficient scoring 30 year old who doesn’t seem like he’d be the happiest dude in Minnesota with a terrible contract in that one.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maggs is one of the best 6th men in the league. I don’t like him for our team, but he is someone who would really help out many other teams. Don’t make it sound like the only way to get rid of Maggs is to have Randolph in the deal, because Randolph is untouchable. The most we would have to give up is Wright + Bellineli in a Maggs deal.
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by LostHawkGSW on Jul 22, 2009 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we are taking on Maggette, you better be giving up at least Randolph.
![]()
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I beg all three of you to read the entire post. Like I said I dont expect it, and I dont value him nearly as highly as you obviously do so there would never be a deal worked out for him, I merely said that to stop people from suggesting Maggette if we are fed exing money in return.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
no I know what you’re saying. I just don’t think our teams make for great trading partners. Both of us want to get the best young player in the deal. I really don’t think its possible to overstate the love GSoM has for Randolph right now. Maggette is a bad contract, but Jackson might be just as bad and he’s kinda the de facto team leader so he’s probably not going anywhere. Nobody here wants to give up Buike or Morrow unless its in a package for a real impact player. Possibly Buike, Wright, Belinelli and Turiaf for Love+expiring or Gomes?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you, and I am not asking you to give up Randolph
I brought him up to nix the Maggette for expirings and picks talk.
I guess coming in to this forum, I was assuming you would realize that after FA and all of their contracts expire, all of your 2s and 3s are going to demand a lot more money than you can give them. Someone will offer Azubuike MLE, Morrow will get offered a decent amount and GS will probably match that one. Brandan Wright and/or Belinelli will probably be let go even though people will undoubtedly be mad about it. Belinelli and Curry are redundant and from what I have seen Nellie isnt a huge fan of Marco. I just think you are not going to be able to keep everyone you want, and we can help you out while providing cap relief going into a big summer. Something has to work, and I bet your FO (or a rational one) would be more likely to agree with me than a fan who wants Azubuike signed to a 5 year 2M deal…not gonna happen, sorry.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Azubiuke's contract
Was originally signed for 3 years, 9 million, so we all know what his value is. You’d probably be hard pressed to find a GSW fan who will tell you that he’ll resign for a “5 year 2M deal.” You’re obviously biased against Maggette, fine. The contract is bad, but, as has been said before on this post, he’s more talented than any perimeter player currently on the T-Wolves, and I’m sure that bad contract or no, his value is higher in the eyes of any NBA GM than in yours.
Likewise, if Bellinelli and Wright’s team extensions aren’t picked up for the ‘10-’11 season, that’s 5.8 million dollars in expirings before the big 2010 FA market, so their value is higher than you seem to think, as well. With that said, how about this:
Azubuike+Wright+Belinelli for Love+Gomes. The salaries work. The talent is in the Warriors favor, but they are definitely in more of a win now mode, and it would leave the Wolves with the option of having as much as 30M dollars in expirings before the 2010 FA market.
by the guy on Jul 22, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, who do you want? buki is just recently signed for a few years, Morrow we will most definitely pick up his option and right now he is not getting enough money to have in a worth wiled trade, you were the one who said you wanted a wind so Brandan Wright wont work.
So, anyone you would want who’s name is not Maggette does not have a contract that is worth trading (who is a wing).
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
all im saying is i would take love, rubio, and gomesa nd firsts for randolph
and you take maggette and his contract
Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan
by montadaboss on Jul 22, 2009 7:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a little realistic perspective
Randolph broke the Vegas Summer league scoring record…set by who? Nate Robinson or something?
Like Sam23 said, Love is our version of Randolph, except for instead of breaking Nate Robinson’s summer league record, he is getting ready for olympic scrimmage and is even up for voting in the Olympic Dream Team rank ’em on ESPN.com…he isnt making it to the Olympic team I realize. But please stop valuing your guys higher just because they look good in a GS uni.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
see Mplax? the Randolph love is ridiculous around here…. but the thing is, as absurd as I know that deal is, I kinda agree with montadaboss. I really don’t think I’d give up Randolph for anything less than Rubio and Love.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AR has immense potential
and only turned 20 a couple of weeks ago.
by mosdl on Jul 22, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
AGAIN
thats fine, as I have said ten times already, I dont want Randolph and dont expect him, Iwanted to stop the Maggette talk.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'll have to live with the warriors trying to get rid of a bad contract
Warriors either want a) cap relief or b) a player who makes us playoff bound.
Anything else ain’t going to happen my frie.d
by mosdl on Jul 22, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
do keep in mind we just practically gave away a high scoring PG just to unload his contract, so we wouldn’t be listening to market realities to expect equal talent to be coming back in a Maggette trade because of his contract
by hardcore on Jul 22, 2009 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that was covered in a)
Crawford was a salary dump (and calling him a PG – tsk tsk :). So for Maggs, we either do it to dump salary or someone who makes us much better (sf/pf/c)
by mosdl on Jul 22, 2009 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
salary dump options
if we really want to dump Maggette’s salary ala Crawford we are getting back expiring contracts in Cardinal & Bobby Brown … or we could widen the deal and add (in a second deal) Marco for Pecherov
Maggette + Marco for expiring contracts? My guess is Minny might be able to do better with their expirings but they may not, and those two would be solid rotation wings for them
obviously we don’t get much talent in return
by hardcore on Jul 22, 2009 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You get 10M
to work with in FA this year by getting rid of Maggette….thats a lot. You could easily replace Maggette and Belinelli for that and so could the Wolves. Then again maybe you are far enough over that you cant work in FA anyways. Either way though, it comes off for the next 4 FA periods.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That seems like a pretty decent trade proposal,
atleast from me, as a Warrior fan. Minnny has really no players that we would want other than your high value young players (Flynn, Rubio, Love, and Jefferson).
If you want Maggette plus one are other youngs (Wright or Marco) for expirings, that can work for both of us, don’t see very many other realistic swaps. Maybe a simple Marco or Buike for expiring and first rounder.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Jul 22, 2009 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So..
How about Maggette for Rubio or Jefferson.
It is the shoes!!!
by LighTz707OuT on Jul 22, 2009 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This will never get old
Loving it!
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
by dubzfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how bout sign and trade rubio?
maybe rubio for buike?
or rubio for wright?
seeing that the bay area’s a big market, that might make it worth it for rubio and it doesn’t seem like he’s coming to minny, so better something than nothing, right?
btw, does anybody know if u can combine sign-and-trade players with others?
eg buike+jack for rubiio+thomas
(that’s an example not a proposal so don’t get all analytical on this one)
by thedagger on Jul 22, 2009 7:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
ugh
if we were to trade for rubio, we would need to get rid of a guard. I’d rather trade marco (I doubt curry is available) than buike, since we need some size.
by mosdl on Jul 22, 2009 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true true true
but marco hardly seems like attractive trade bait…
and that’s an understatement
and i still think buike for rubio is good for us
i would even do curry for rubio in a heartbeat
by thedagger on Jul 22, 2009 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we were getting rubio for buike or wright, there would be zero reason to complain about that deal. i don’t care how many guards we have; we come out way ahead in either of those deals.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jul 22, 2009 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah also
personally, i don’t think maggette is NEARLY as bad as you think him to be,
but if he’s off limits, how bout jack?
by thedagger on Jul 22, 2009 7:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Mplax
You’re my hero for coming here and expecting objectivity. Not even the writers are objective here. True story.
by Aemoc on Jul 22, 2009 7:34 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
It’s not even that. He was the one who said they needed a wing yet he does not want our best wing so I still dont even know what he’s trying to say.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
I was told GS and Portland forums had the most homerism so part of it was for humor because we both have good assets. Of course GS has a lot better assets, obiously, they won 5 more games than a Timberwolves team with McHale in charge even 2 years out of a roster overhaul.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was told GS and Portland forums had the most homerism
I’m not familiar with all the SBN team sites, but from the ones I have seen I wouldn’t disagree
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Homerism? The Kings radical defense of Spencer Hawes (who sucks) was pretty impressive.
by jae on Jul 22, 2009 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice, when you set your feet on a subject there not a force that will move you out of the paint. (I ain’t saying Hawes is any good but you just keep hammering in the point).
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am familiar with all the NBA team sites
That statement is correct.
by Sabonis4Ever on Jul 23, 2009 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was told GS and Portland forums had the most homerism
They also could very well be the two most popular SBN hoops sites… coincidence? I think not.
Popular sites attract the more casual “go team” fans.
Thing 2
by olympicmike on Jul 24, 2009 1:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno about other Warriors fans, but the only Twolves players I’d be interested in trading for would be Love and/or Rubio. I don’t see either side making anything even resembling rational offers for trades involving those players…
by Missing Barry on Jul 22, 2009 8:15 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
+ (ah forget it how about just a rec).
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1,
I would be willing to give up Curry and Wright for Rubio even if he has to play one more season in Spain.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Jul 22, 2009 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you intentionally leave out Jefferson?
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 22, 2009 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still dont get his point here
He comes over here and says he wants a SF but wont say who. Unless you tell us who you want its all nonsense to throw random deals out there. You’ve seen deals with Monta,Andris,Turiaf,Maggette,Buike,Belinelli,Curry,Randolph,Wright for the sake of clarity who do you want man!!!
by Warriorfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Kudos, maybe if enough people ask he may even come up with something.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Curry Marco for Flynn and Thomas and Gomes
Now I am just throwing deals together. But really who do you want? Then we can come to an agreement.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
by dubzfan on Jul 22, 2009 7:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
maggette, marco, bwright for etan thomas and future first rounder
by FeartheBeard4 on Jul 22, 2009 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
curry and azubukie for flynn and some garbage player
by gswfan2 on Jul 22, 2009 8:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
what the hell
"If you hit .440 with 20 bombs, you don't have to do s---. You don't have to bring a glove to practice, just hit and leave whenever you want. You can bring a 40 and smoke a cigarette and call me from the parking lot asking me what time the game is, and I'll tell you. You can even say 'F--- you, Steve!' Actually, don't say that, that wouldn't be very nice." -Steve Friend, Head Coach, Chabot College Gladiators Baseball
by flipgatey3 on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont want somebody and this isn't fantasy basketball
You cant ACTUALLY give me someone, nor can I take them or give you someone in return.
I came here expecting to talk to some rational people about how our teams could come together so both of us benefit. Not so we could erase Maggette’s contract for you. So far sam23 is one of about 5 rational people in here when it comes to giving up a piece.
From what I have seen so far, Brandan Wright and Marco Belinelli can be had at a discount because people seem to hate them. I know, I know, not everyone. But that seems to be the popular consensus (of course now that I mentioned it, that is no longer true). A discount, to GS fans, seems to be you GS getting $1.50 while shipping out $1.00 so anything I offer up will not be good enough, and to be honest I dont have any fantasy deals, especially ones that I think would placate you here.
Having said all of that, what do you want AND expect to be able to get were you GM of the Warriors for guys like Belinelli or Wright? Azubuike is far overvalued from what I can tell and would not make sense for me to try to suggest a deal for him here.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 8:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Something involving Love and/or Rubio. There’s your starting point, what do you want for one or both of them?
by Missing Barry on Jul 22, 2009 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea Love and Rubio are the only guys I really, really want from that roster. I’d take Gomes as something of a throw in and obviously some of those expirings have some value, but I don’t think there’s a real match there unless its a crazy Rubio/Love for some combination of Curry/Monta/Randolph or a tiny Belinelli for Gomes type deal and both seem unlikely to me.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Belinelli for Gomes
This Trade Failed
by hardcore on Jul 22, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Randolph is untouchable to the Wolves. They don’t have enough talent to get him. :)
Everyone else is a piece I’d be willing to part with in the right deal.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow stop being such a Va gine
and tell us what you want already
by Warriorfan on Jul 22, 2009 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want you to log on to your season of NBA Live
And see if the computer (which is notoriously accepting of bad trades…maybe its gotten better in the last 5 years?) will even take some of the trades you are offering. THAT is what I want.
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about
We get Randolph, you guys get Lebron, and we give Cleveland a buffet of any combination of 7. Players, draft rights, expirings, or draft picks. Sound fair to you?
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we give up Randolph? No way! ; )
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he’s just kinda checking how we feel about our own guys, I don’t think he wants any one player in particular. I think its odd he’s as against Maggette as he is, but there’s no need to start hurling insults. Having discussion with fans of other teams helps us all to gauge the value of players around the league, we should be encouraging this sort of thing not bashing it. If he gauges how we value our players before creating an offer doesn’t that make more sense than just coming in here with an offer similar to the last T-Wolves/Warriors proposed trade we saw around here?
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 22, 2009 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks
To be honest I had no idea how highly you valued Randolph before all of this. Obviously I knew you liked him and thought he was a high potential player. I just didnt realize he was allstar level already around here. Me being up here in MN he is just another lottery pick who may or may not pan out in 2 years. Obviously he will have a long career, I just don’t put too much stock into summer league and his numbers last year. Obviously he didnt get too many minutes and could possibly double his numbers (but he would be playing against starters all the time and not just backups so probably not quite double) if he were a starter, but that doesnt translate up to MN as untouchable. Now, like sam23 said, I kinda know what you guys think of your players and realize that, if your GM thinks anything like what I have seen, a trade absolutely will not be done.
I also dont think that anyone realizes that us taking on Maggette’s contract gives you 10M and more every year for the next 3 after this to work in FA with. With that you could EASILY replace Maggette’s scoring AND another guy or two. But you seem to want things here and now? Well that we can not give you so maybe the books are closed on this post?
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2009 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, dude, I see what you're trying to do but
this whole discussion has been pretty unproductive.
Yes, I know you look at Randolph as just another lottery pick. But do you watch games? Can you evaluate talent? Love is a nice player, maybe a David Lee at best. A very strong rebounder and probably a mid-teens scorer. But if you watch Randolph, you’ll see that we like him much more because of the freakish array of skills he brings to the court rather than his summer league numbers. In addition to rebounding at a high rate, he can block, steal, score, and handle the ball much more effectively than Love. Nobody cares about his summer league numbers. Look at his last month of last season, and you’ll see why we’re excited.
As far as trades, suggest something, or don’t ask the question. I feel like you wrote this with a response already in mind. You wanted to prove the point that GSoM folks overvalue their players. I will not argue with this assertion. I’ve been battling with people who think Kelenna Azubuike is the next MJ for a while on this site. But what do you expect from a devoted fanbase?
Of course people are going to suggest Maggette. You, however, don’t see that people are actually looking at the many layers of a player like Maggs. He’s not just a salary dump. He averaged 18.5 points and 5.5 boards a game last year while shooting 46% from the field and 85% from the line. That’s pretty fricken good, worth about 10 million a year in this league. But we already have a Corey Maggette in Jackson and Azubuike. You said you needed a 3. We happen to have one that averages 18/5 a game. So why don’t you offer a practical counter proposal instead of claiming that we’re all blind homers?
by eastbayglory on Jul 22, 2009 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
+1
He also seems to think the Warriors need to make a move as badly as that unbalanced science experiment they’re calling a roster in Minny, and that they aren’t much better talent-wise than the Wolves, which is simply not true. How many key players on the T-Wolves missed 20+ games last year? Jefferson. How many key players on the Warriors missed 20+ games last year? Ellis (missed 57 games! That’s how many Jefferson played in!), Jackson, Maggette, and Biedrins? Does that sound right? And the Dubs still won 5 more games? Please. The Warriors have only won 40 more games than the T-Wolves over the last 3 years, so yeah, they’re totally on the same trajectory as franchises (eye roll).
And I don’t mean to sling insults, but he seems to blame all of the inability to propose a trade both sides seem to like on our homerism and overvaluing of our talent, but what about his homerism and overvaluing of their talent? Love=Randolph? There isn’t a FO exec in the league that would agree to that statement. And their isn’t a wing player on the Wolves’ roster equal to Jackson, Maggs, Azu, or Morrow, so getting any of those players in the deal immediately upgrades his team, but there’s no acknowledgment of that.
No, it seems that this guy posted this to make himself feel like he’s smarter than Warrior fans. I haven’t seem him post a response to anything here that hasn’t been flippant, arrogant, and un-engaging. At one point he even says “Ideas? Or do we not discuss even relatively fair deals for both sides and pretend I never came here?” Except he never offers an idea of what he thinks would be a “fair deal” and seems to think that there are people outside of Love, Flynn, Rubio, or Jefferson on the Wolves’ roster who are even any good and have any value outside of expiring contracts, which there aren’t. There just aren’t. There just isn’t a single player on the roster outside of those four with the talent and upside of a Bellinelli as a 1/2 or a Wright as a 3/4. Our homerism? Please. Maybe we are overvaluing our talent, but so is he, and if that’s the case we’ll never get a theoretical message board deal worked out. He posted this expecting us to offer deals for guys like Nikola Pekovic? Come on.
by the guy on Jul 22, 2009 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
agree with everything you said.
REC’D
by warriOs on Jul 23, 2009 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our franchises are on completely different "trajectories"
But to say you are winners because you won 5 more games than the Timberwolves? Ouch. Good job 90% of the league. And to compare 40 games over 3 years to 5 games this year…doesnt that mean you are on the downside? Negative trajectory then? And how can you compare our unbalance roster with 2pg, 1sg, 2sf, 4pfs, 2c to GS’s 10 players locked up in the 2/3? Then again, I dont want to sound arrogant (like you) and call your roster an unbalance science experiment. At least I can look in the mirror before I make these errant accusations and realize when I am being hypocritical and admit when I dont know everything about your roster.
How many FO execs have you talked to? And why would giving up Love for Azubuike give us an immediate upgrade? Sure adding Azubuike for nothing might give us a couple games, but not for what you would ask us to give up for him. And how do you know what will and wont immediately upgrade “my” team? And how do you know that we are looking for an immediate 2 win upgrade instead of a long term 20-30 win upgrade? Hint: we’re not. I like to avoid long-term contracts on a 6th man before our starting lineup is even taking shape.
I dont really feel like getting into the last part again, but what do you know about Nikola Pekovic except for his name, position, and that he is in Europe right now? I’m assuming less than I do and I dont know much except for what I have read about him right after the draft and over the past year. Pekovic isn’t who I am asking anyone to offer a deal for, he is a player that can be used for his draft rights as a deal sweetener rather than this phanton contract which I apparently asked you to offer deals for? Come on.
by Mplax on Jul 28, 2009 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest I don't watch many GS games
And no I am not a talent evaluator. Are you? Do you watch games? I know you look at Love as just another hustling white guy like David Lee, but did you watch him play at all? But if you watch Love, you’ll see that we like him much more because of his freakish array of skills he brings to the court rather than his mid teens scoring and incredible rebounding skills. In addition to being one of the best rebounders in the game in his rookie season, he can also pass the rock better than most bigs, he can start the transition game off of a defensive rebound better than any big I have seen, he has a nice and developing outside shot, an extremely high basketball IQ, and luckily he is a post player and not a slasher and doesn’t need to depend on his ball handling skills like Randolph. Look at his last half of the season and you will see why he is exciting. When he got the minutes after Jefferson went down, he produced more than any other rookie not named Derrik Rose.
As far as asking for suggestions, since when do I have to have one of my own to ask a question? I feel like I wrote this trying to have a friendly discussion with fans from another team who were passionate about the game and cheering their team on to be as best as it can be. Everyone overvalues their players, I’m not knocking you for it, but absolutely no one except people here think Rubio for Azubuike is anything but laughable. From a devoted fan base, I would expect them to have a love for the game and all of those who also love the game while maintaining a respect for people who love their own teams the same way. What I do NOT expect however, is to be told I have no idea what I am talking about (which I know I do not, I dont watch the Warriors and thats why I am here asking) by people who also have no idea what they are talking about. If you honestly think the Wolves are looking for a player like Maggette to fill a gap, then suggest the trade and discuss and maybe even broaden your knowledge. If you think maybe the Wolves would be dumb enough to take on a guy who might win them 3 more games this year for an awful salary and just want to get a one sided deal in favor of the Warriors, then keep posting on fan boards, make your seasons of NBA Live that much better, and keep your fantasy league rosters updated. Best of luck to you. Maggette is a good player, no doubt about it. And you are right, he even fits a need for the Wolves. But in no way does he fit in with the actual plan of a rebuilding team. Short contracts for unused players are what I am looking for. Not every trade has to be a blockbuster that drastically helps out the Golden State Warriors, sometimes it can be just a small trade that helps both teams fill a need and get rid of the excess fat. I had some trade ideas to offer after I saw what you guys/gals here thought, but after seeing some of the things that were said here, I decided it was useless to even try to have a civil and productive discussion between fans of different teams. To grow a reputation of a fan base as being “unapproacable” is dispicable. But GSoM is known for it. I tried to come in here and see what I could learn and find out, but I will leave having the stereotype reinforced and I will probably share with others what kind of people post here.
by Mplax on Jul 27, 2009 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mplax, I think you’re underestimating Randolph. There’s obviously way too much irrational Randolph love in these parts, but he has shown reasons why he’s be mostly untouchable in trades. At the end of last season he was getting starters minutes and playing very well and improving significantly (all this at the NBA level, against starters). Combine that with his freakish athleticism and length, and the fact that he’s matured into a much harder worker than he was initially, and you have a guy that’s a lot more than “just another lottery pick”.
At the same time, eastbayglory, you’re underestimating Love. Calling him “a David Lee at best” is a bit ridiculous. Love is young, and has some pretty legit skills. He obviously isn’t a freak athlete, so his ceiling might be lower than someone like Randolph, but he can be a lot better than David Lee. First of all, Love plays good D already. Second of all, he’s not even 21, so his athleticism, strength, and possibly even height can still improve. Third, he already rebounds better than David Lee, and that may even improve slightly in the next couple of years. Fourth, he can shoot and pass, and with his basketball IQ, can really turn into a good offensive player and make his teammates better. Kevin Love is already a good player, and may turn into a very good player.
Back to Mplax. I think you underestimate Maggette’s scoring. $10M can EASILY replace it? No. Maggette certainly has his flaws as a player, but when it comes to making the ball go through the rim, he’s very good at that. He has a career 57.7 TS% (he’s been slightly better than that the last few years), while scoring 20 points per 36 minutes (again, he’s been slightly higher than that the last few years). Maggette’s scoring is not easily replaced.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love = Lee seems like a pretty reasonable comp to me. Love may be slightly better rebounder (21.0 to 18.3 TR%, career), but they’re both awesome in this regard. Lee’s a more efficient shooter and turns the ball over slightly less. They’re both slightly undersized but are strong and athletic, with great motors and attitude. Love’s ceiling, at age 20, may be slightly higher than Lee’s (age 25) but I wouldn’t be at all shocked if they had similar careers. Not a knock on either, obviously: I’d love to have either on my team. (I’d love Love slightly more, but mostly because he’s younger and cheaper).
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 23, 2009 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I strongly disagree. I mean, if you want to talk about how good they were last year, I think that’s a reasonable case to say they were fairly similar. I think you’re not giving enough emphasis to the age/experience factor, though. I’m under the impression players tend to substantially increase their production in their first 2-3 years in the league (and through their early 20’s if you look at it age-wise).
Offensively, I don’t see Love ever matching Lee’s efficiency (as Lee is incredibly efficient), but he’s already average in that regard so I see him becoming a decent amount above average in the next couple years. Love will make up for it in his scoring rate, though, which should be much better than Lee (15.8 points per 36 for Love, 16.5 for Lee, but Lee has a career average of 14.0). By all accounts Love has the basketball IQ and passing skills to be a Chris Webber/Brad Miller type passer (though he did only post a 1.5 assist/36 rate last season), as well, so his offensive contributions will likely be much greater than just his scoring output.
Defensively, reports I’ve heard about Lee are pretty down on his D, though if you want to refuse that, I’m just going by what I’ve heard. Love seems to be a pretty good on ball defender, though obviously neither are going to do much to guard the key in help D (blocking/altering shots). They’re also both exceptional rebounders, though Love appears to be a bit better (though if you want to credit Lee because of SSS concerns with Love, that’s certainly reasonable).
When it’s all said and done, to me Love looks like a good bet to be a better player than Lee to me. Added D + a more versatile offensive game (higher scoring rate + passing ability) will be the primary reasons for the difference, I think. A lot of this comes from the age/experience level difference – Lee as at the age/experience level where he’s unlikely to substantially improve, while Love is at the age/experience level where substantial improvements are common. So that’s what I’m seeing.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love might improve substantially, or he might not. The buzz on him out of UCLA was that he was super-“advanced” in terms of hoops IQ, and not really a freak athlete, so he could be fairly close to his ceiling. This upcoming season will probably tell us a lot.
Strangely, despite the excellent rebounding #s and solid TS%, by plus/minus and Roland rating, neither Love nor Lee was a positive last season: Lee at -2.7/ -0.8 Love at a near identical -2.8 / -0.7. (Jefferson was actually much more valuable than Love, though he was crap the season before). What does this say? Meh, probably mostly that raw plus minus in a single-season sample-size can be pretty unreliable. Lee was good by this measure in 07/08 and dominant in 06/07. Meanwhile, WP48, the Dave Berri measure, rated Lee the third-best center in the NBA last season, and Love #13. That seems a lot closer to what you would expect looking at their other rock-solid numbers (TS%, rebounding, turnovers, etc.)
All told, I still don’t see what about the Love/Lee (lovely?) comparison there is to “strongly disagree” with. They both put up excellent numbers last season, Lee slightly better, as you might expect given his advanced age. I suppose Love could end up substantially better, but if does this, he’ll have become one of the two or three best big men in the NBA. Odds seem more likely that he’ll remain on more or less the same “tier” as Lee (at least till Lee passes his prime).
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 23, 2009 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eh, I’m not a huge fan of the merits of +/-. Is there a place I can read about the methodology of WP48? I’m interested in how it breaks out positions, I think it’s weird that PF’s and C’s have such different WP48 – maybe because it’s comparing the players to some sort of positional baseline and C’s is much lower? I see Lee as a PF, but I don’t think that’s a huge deal. I also don’t watch the Knicks, so maybe he really was playing C a lot.
Again, basically I see Love being a slightly better offensive player than Lee – a lower TS% but higher scoring rate and being more involved in creating offense for teammates. I also see Love being a substantially better defensive player. I don’t think he has to be a top 3 big man to be substantially better than Lee, as I don’t see Lee as being nearly as good as those numbers make him out to be. I am open to hearing more evidence in support of Lee, though.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there a place I can read about the methodology of WP48?
I don’t see Lee as being nearly as good as those numbers make him out to be. I am open to hearing more evidence in support of Lee, though.
Over the course of almost 300 NBA games, Lee’s “conventional” numbers (rebound, assist, scoring and turnover rates, TS%, etc.) and his WP numbers (composed basically of the conventional numbers, weighted to reflect their correlation to wins) suggest that he’s a top 10-15 NBA big man. Maybe not quite Howard/Gasol/Duncan/Garnett tier, but the next tier down (the one inhabited by guys like Biedrins and Love). Plus-minus and Roland suggested the same thing, up until last season — but then you don’t trust plus-minus (nor do I, fully). What “more evidence” are you waiting for? Seems like you’ve already made up your mind how you “see” Lee, regardless of the numbers.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 23, 2009 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ps
I think I’m having “kissing jae’s ring” moment, cos I would really love him to drop into this thread and just rank Jefferson, Love, Biedrins, and Lee #1-4.
My personal ranking…
1. (tie) Biedrins, Lee, Love
4. Jefferson
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 23, 2009 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, I think I opened Pandora’s box here. I dunno if I really want to get into evaluating the methodology of various basketball statistics, so I think I’m just going to leave this one alone. I did read the explanation of WP48, as well as some additional stuff about it, but I think getting into a discussion about it would be more time consuming and effort than I’m ready for…
Of course I already had an opinion on Lee, but I’m always open to evidence that furthers my knowledge. My next question is…is anyone else as baseball-reference/basketball-reference retarded as I am? I cannot, for the love of me, figure out how to get leaderboards in the various stats for a given season. Is it just me or do they make this incredibly difficult/impossible? I can get career leaderboards, leader for each season, best single seasons ever leaderboards, but not a 2008-2009 leaderboard (or any other single year).
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this what you’re looking for?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 23, 2009 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
oooh new toy! I didn’t even know you could do that.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 23, 2009 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep. The sequence of links to get there is not very intuitive or convenient in my opinion. Thanks for the help. I’m checking out win shares – Lee comes in at 17, so still pretty good. Maybe he is better than I thought initially. Wins produced seems weird to me the way C’s are hugely valued over PF’s – but win shares seems more in line with what I would expect.
I guess going back to the original point of the conversation, I guess both myself and eastbayglory underestimated Lee a bit. I’m still not convinced David Lee is as good as the numbers indicate, but I am willing to concede he’s better than my original assessment…so if Love ends up being David Lee or just a slightly better version, that is a pretty good player.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The sequence of links to get there is not very intuitive or convenient in my opinion
Totally agreed. I kind of used the Force.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jul 23, 2009 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there any way to get past just the top 20 and maybe check out the full list of NBA players for a single stat or something like that?
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can find a lot of those on ESPN. The advanced metrics require an insider pass, unfortunately.
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 23, 2009 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m talking about basketball-reference stuff.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Stuff”?
ESPN.com has pretty much all the stats that basketball-reference.com does, except for a few things like win shares.
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 23, 2009 7:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if you look up a few comments you’ll find me specifically talking about win shares. :)
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And win shares is only one of a large number of possible “single stats” :)
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 23, 2009 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we have the same understanding of freak athletes
which we absolutely do not, then Anthony Randolph is just as unathletic as Kevin Love. GS fans (understandably so as that is their play style) value speed and verticle above strength and IQ. In a slower style of play (and much more proven on a winning scale) strength and IQ are more valuable when defining athleticism. Sure, maybe Randolph will develop more strength in a couple years, but as of now, Love and Randolph are athletes in the complete opposite respect, but a true comparison of athleticism can hardly be made.
by Mplax on Jul 27, 2009 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but see that’s the problem. Dude come in hear without any real trade ideas and then has little or no input as to what a good swap might be.
If a fan from another team came over and asked how high we rate player X and why, and is there anyone with in reason on their team with whom we would be willing to swap that makes sense, THEN we might have a nice little discussion. But to come in here and say we need wings but we don’t want your best because of his bad contract and btw we wont be trading any of our quality guys, AND not giving any other input at all is just silly.
There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.
by qin on Jul 22, 2009 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corey Maggette for a pack of juicy fruit? Jaykay,jaykay. How bout Corey Maggette for Brewer and Thomas?
by DubsFan408 on Jul 22, 2009 8:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i like that one
how bout a pack of juicy fruit for al jefferson?
by thedagger on Jul 22, 2009 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minnesota does not make a good trade partner for us.
First off sorry Mplax for any flack you got here or the type of overabundance of homerism that you found here. We Believe in Randolph to be our savior, maybe a bit premature but he looks great. Most of us know that Morrow and Azibuike are just role players but they came from no where and play hard, so we have a special place for them.
As for the guys on your roster,
First I see a bunch of expiring that really are not great players and I have very little intrest in (that includes Brewer, not sure how much of faith you guys have left in him). Ryan Gomes is alright, he is solid player with a decent contract. Al Jefferson doesnt make sense to trade to us. We have Andris Biedrins who is better in my opinion. I understand that most around the NBA would probably have Jefferson>Biedrins, but despite Jefferson’s greater offensive repotoir, I prefer Beidrins’s higher fg% and better rebounding rate. Flynn and Love are close to being untouable for you guys. So that leaves Rubio…..
I would love to make a Curry and Wright for Rubio type of deal if you were intrested in it. But other than Rubio, I dont really see any players on your roster that we would really want.
As for our guys Jackson and Maggette are hard to trade because of their horriable contracts and their age, despite that, they happen to be productive player and make our team better when they are healthy. As for the rest of our guys(minus Biedrins, Randolph, and Ellis) I dont see any trade that makes sense unless you include on of the above mentioned four players and the rest of the guys are not really good enough to make that kind of deal. The only type of deal that seems to make sense is a Maggette and Marco/Wright for exprings/picks/Gomes type of trade and you seem like you dislike Maggette’s contract even worse than we do….
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Jul 22, 2009 11:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’d do Curry, Belinelli, Buike, Wright for Rubio, Gomes and a lottery protected pick
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 23, 2009 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrins is better than Jefferson. It’s not homerism, it’s truth.
by Missing Barry on Jul 23, 2009 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also…
HOMERISM ON A FREE-TO-JOIN TEAM-SPECIFIC MESSAGE BOARD? NO FRICKIN’ WAY!!!!!
Thing C
by markdash on Jul 22, 2009 11:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ellis + Biedrins + Belinelli for Jefferson and Rubio along with a 1st round draft pick :D? And if you want, you can have Corey Maggette for free.
by DubsFan408 on Jul 23, 2009 12:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Take it or leave it
We’ll trade you Randolph, Curry, Monta, Beans, and as long as you take Maggette’s contract well take the injured KG, OJ Mayo (whoops!) and that incredible Minnesota accent off your hands…

If you guys go over to hoopus, the dude isn’t even here for a legit reason.
I actually have a friend who’s from Minnesota…she’s a Laker fan (they’re originally from Minessota dontcha know?)….as are most people from Minnesota, no? That would explain why Twolves attendance is so underwhelming.
And yes, you guessed correct…I do have NBA League Pass…how the hell else would I ever get a chance to watch such uninspired players as Ryan Gomes or Cardinal go through the motions for the paycheck? ESPN? Don’t think so.
by Blue and Yellow on Jul 23, 2009 2:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Wolves should be interested in Maggette, but they should be in a position to get other young and intriguing players in any deal. The Warriors shouldn’t expect to get more than expiring contracts and Gomes-style role players in the deal, because taking on fifty million plus for Corey Maggette is a huge risk.
Belinelli is the natural fit because he’s a promising young shooting guard with all the tools, who is also cheap for a few more years. The Wolves should be looking to give extended auditions to guys with reasonable production and great skillsets like Belinelli who can be had at discounted rates. Even if the Wolves didn’t want to take back Maggette, they’d certainly do well to flip one of their role players for Belinelli (say, Gomes or Pecherov) who would balance out Golden State’s roster.
Brandan Wright should be somewhat intriguing because he’s also blocked behind a half-dozen talented tweener forwards in Oakland. But his best position is likely power forward, which is a crowded place to be in Minnesota. I’d want him in a Maggette deal because his per-minute production is outstanding and he has the ability to play two positions, even if he’s not the ideal PF/C backup to Love and Jefferson. He might even have some potential as a three in a super-big lineup against a team like the Lakers. Again, another reasonably productive guy who can be given an extended audition.
The Wolves would also probably be interested in Ronny Turiaf, who is a more ideal PF/C backup because he’s a defensive presence who can give a post presence room to operate because he is skilled at the 15-foot jumper. He’s young and signed to a reasonable contract. Azubuike is another productive, young, and affordable wing player that the Wolves would presumably want.
I would say that the Wolves and Warriors are actually really good matchups for a trade, assuming that both can get over fetishes for each others’ best players and concentrate on a fair deal that makes both teams better. Such a deal could take on many forms. If the Wolves get Maggette and his contract and two of Wright, Belinelli, and Turiaf, and the Warriors get the expiring deals of Etan Thomas, Brian Cardinal, and a useful player like Gomes or Pecherov, that would seem fair. If the Warriors are looking to balance their roster and bring in a veteran who produces, Belinelli and Wright for Gomes and the Wolves’ highest second-round pick in 2010 seems like fair value for both teams.
Let’s face it, names like Randolph, Ellis, Curry, and Biedrins aren’t going to be on the table unless names like Jefferson, Love, Flynn, and Rubio are. Neither team is looking to move those guys. The Warriors (if they trade Maggette) are looking to cut salary for a lopsided trade or a 2010 move for the post presence at PF they covet, or if they can’t do that, to get solid value for their end-of-the-bench youngsters who are blocked by various logjams. The Wolves are trying to get value for playoff-caliber role players who won’t be around when their core matures, and to find bargain players who can audition for bigger roles in the future. If they take on Maggette, it will be because they think he’s the best use of their carefully cleared cap space. Both teams should be able to figure out a deal that involves some combination of Maggette, Belinelli, Wright, Turiaf, Azubuike, Gomes, Pecherov, Cardinal, Thomas, and/or second rounders will be mutually beneficial.
by limozeen on Jul 24, 2009 2:59 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Wright doesn’t have the skills to play the 3. He’s not a ball-handler at all, nor does he have an outside shot. He’s most comfortable within 10 feet of the hoop.
I don’t see how the teams matchup well for a trade. The Wolves don’t have much to offer – the Warriors can’t give up Wright/Turiaf because as of right now, there are only 4 capable big men on the Warriors, and those two represent half of that number. If the Wolves want to take Maggette off our hands, obviously that makes a deal worth considering, but I don’t think we’d be considering anything that turns our backup big man depth of Wright/Turiaf into Etan Thomas and Brian Cardinal.
by Missing Barry on Jul 24, 2009 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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