Ratto & Racism at GSW
Today columnist Ray Ratto, who is an all around decent guy and long-time supporter of athletics at all levels in the Bay Area, posted this article in response to Bob Kravitz’s piece in the Indianapolis Star which raised the "issue" of why Indiana's Pacers franchise has so many more white players on its roster than other NBA teams:
Race, not racial makeup, matters
via imgs.sfgate.com
Ratto’s reaction:
We're just here to point out that two of those six melanin-deficient Pacers used to toil here - Mike Dunleavy and Troy Murphy - and to the best of our knowledge, nobody ever said the Warriors were too white. They said the Warriors were too not good, but never too white. …. Again the black-white makeup never seemed to matter here. The 34-48 record did, though, and to our credit nobody here ever said it was because their racial balance wasn't sufficiently balanced. There was no black-white argument at all. We all agreed the record was due to having not enough good players and plenty of bad ownership.
I know Ray Ratto, or did in years past, and have no doubt he’s a well-meaning and erstwhile supporter of athletes and fans alike. He even used to referee & umpire HS sports long after he "needed" to. I am not charging him with being racist, or inferring he is insensitive to the issue of racism as he is the one shedding light on Kravitz’s column.
The comments following Ratto’s article represent the whole spectrum of responses.
Without influencing any of you one way or the other, I’m curious whether your experiences at games, in discussions with your friends, here on GSoM, or even in the folds of your own mind are consistent with what Ratto states.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
0 recs |
47 comments
Comments
Yellow journalism in indiana.
Hansborough was the first white player indiana has selected in the draft under BIRD and first since 2000 when they took Primož Brezec in the draft. If pacers GM was magic johnson and not larry bird no one qould question it. Larry Bird had to take dunleavey and murphy because he HAD to trade jack and harrington.
by tafkasam on Jul 9, 2009 10:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I love Ray Ratto
I think Ray Ratto’s take on the Warriors is the most spot on in the Bay Area. He knows they suck and has no hesitation saying so.
Ray must have been bored because this article is filler. Larry Bird was a great player, hell even coach, but his term with Indiana is just okay, not really that great.
by gabezgsw on Jul 9, 2009 10:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This is pretty silly stuff....cant imagine why someone at the star would write it........
…oh I get it……slow summer day at the star….reporter desperately needs something to sell papers….now what crazy issue can I exploit to cause interest beyond the corn fields….ya I got it…our beloved Bird who has that slight red neck look and racism…. since he actually drafted a big white guy…. and already has more than 2 or 3 on the team!……
by Only In Fairfax on Jul 9, 2009 10:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Not racism, but not coincidence either
Is Larry Bird a racist? No. Is the Pacer organization racist? No. But, given the market demographics of Indianapolis (67% of the city population is considered white), is it a stretch to say that drafting a guy like Hansborough and making the Murphleavy trade after brawls and strip club gunfire were due, at least in part, for marketing purposes? I dont think so. Especially when you consider the fact that, just a few months ago, it was reported that the Pacer organization is struggling and that it may not be able to afford the lease at Conseco Fieldhouse. I’m sure the drafting of and trading for these talented, hardworking, no nonsense (and yes white, cornfed looking) guys has something to do wtih appealing to the masses and trying to win back that basketball crazy town. Im not saying that any one person or group of people are racist, but I dont think its purely coincidence that these guys have ended up in Indiana.
by rtgunn on Jul 9, 2009 11:27 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I think you're spot on.
If a semi-healthy Yao were to become available to the Dubs, no doubt Cohan (assuming he’s still the owner) would be looking to get him considering the bay’s demographics. It has more to do with business sense than racism. On the other hand, that white players might appeal more to Indy’s fan base may be indicative of racism in the Indy area, and to a degree the team’s course of action could be interpreted as an acceptance of that racism.
by Run DNC on Jul 9, 2009 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec'd
On the other hand, that white players might appeal more to Indy’s fan base may be indicative of racism in the Indy area, and to a degree the team’s course of action could be interpreted as an acceptance of that racism.
Which would make for a far more interesting article and discussion than what either guy threw out there. (would we say the same about a Yao or Yi acquisition here? does it need to become a multiple player trend to stir up discussion? Do Indy fans really pay to see Dunleavy and Hansbrough or are they coming to see Ford and Granger?) I think that may have been the point that Kravitz was circling, but he never quite got there.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 9, 2009 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Given that the Pacers were a better drawn when their starting lineup featured Jermaine O’Neal, Reggie Miller, Jamal Tinsley and Jalen Rose, I suspect that fans in Indy are like fans most places: they pay to see winners.
by jae on Jul 9, 2009 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, but if an all white squad gets you 50 wins and an all black squad gets you 50 wins (again, sorry to other races but this seems to be the limits of the discussion), which squad would the Indiana fanbase prefer? I think we’d all like to think that they would not have a preference, and I’m not going to argue either, but it is not as simple as “pay to see winners.”
Winners appear to be the most important factor in determining fan support, but it would be foolish to assume that makes it the only factor. I could prefer winning with small ball teams over winning with slow, big man dominated teams. That doesn’t mean I prefer losing, it just means that I have secondary preferences that, once winning is no longer an issue, become very salient.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winning is not the only factor, but it appears to be significantly more important than anything else. In terms of a management decision the data say that it pretty much that simple.
It isn’t really a matter of what you prefer, but what people spend money on. Wins drive season ticket sales and that’s where successful teams do the bulk of their business. The “well, at least they’re exciting” draws fans to a couple of games perhaps, but it tends not to be the deciding factor when someone is faced with shelling out 4 figures.
by jae on Jul 9, 2009 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
star power too
That team you mentioned, at the time Reggie Miller was one of the biggest NAMES in the NBA. I bet if indiana had shaq they wouldn’t have as much of a problem with attendence.
by tafkasam on Jul 9, 2009 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not arguing with anything you said.
I’m just saying if you hold winning constant there are other factors, race included. I just took a seminar in college about race in politics, and the leader of the seminar conducted research http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/3/6/1/2/3/pages361231/p361231-1.php that showed that all other factors held constant, race was a major factor in the primaries and election (I think they argued it was the main factor actually, but I’m not rereading it all again, if I remember correctly there are some informative graphs at the end of the paper). I forgot what the specifics were, but basically, once Obama was established as a candidate who had a good chance at winning (the parallel would be, once the NBA team was likely to win), then the racially liberal voters supported him and the racially conservative were against him, no matter his opponent (the parallel would be, maybe the preferred winning team in Indiana would be white rather than black, though it could be the other way around, it’s not like I have a study of people from Indiana in front of me. My guess would be that they would prefer white players due to their distaste for “thugs” after the Auburn Hills fiasco, since “thug” carries the connotation of black person).
However, race can pervert the thinking of what is successful and what isn’t. Every team wants guys who play the game the right way, whatever the hell that means. If white players carry the stigma of being less athletic but scrappier and relying more on hard work while black players carry the stigma of being more athletic but lazier, that could affect a GM’s decision when deciding between Hansbrough and James Johnson. Maybe they’ve decided the way to win is to get hard working players because they feel they have the coaches to teach them if they are willing to learn, and then maybe they buy into the stigmas, so they might be leaning towards Hansbrough.
I’m not saying choosing the lesser player is a successful strategy, but maybe the person choosing the lesser player’s judgment has been clouded by racial categorizations and does not in the end choose the overall best player available, just the best player available according to their criteria of what the best player available should be.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Using that logic Utah should be the whitest the in the league
Are they?
by crab dribble cocktail on Jul 10, 2009 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd
Cause Havoc. Bring Nash in and 120 point games will be very expected
by monta.da.boss on Jul 11, 2009 2:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's stupid about this is...
both Ratto and Kravitz are arguing the same side… BOTH denying reverse racism. So why and what are we debating here? LOL.
Usually, one person is on one side, then another person is on the opposite side, and you can engage in a debate. In this case, both guys are on the same side, (denying Larry Bird is a reverse racist), so what’s the point of this? To infuriate, or flush out individuals that might happen to have another opinion? Whether or not we agree, it’s safe to assume someone out there may have a different opinion than these guys.
But if the point of Ratto’s article is to fan flames just to insight a reaction amongst people who might not agree with Ratto and Kravitz, I think that’s ridiculous.
I’ll speak for those people who they are trying flush out: IF AN NHL TEAM GOT OUT OF A HUGE BRAWL IN WHICH THE NHL COACH WAS CAUGHT USING THE N WORD, AND THEN 4 YEARS LATER THE ENTIRE STARTING LINEUP WAS BLACK IN A LEAGUE WHERE <10% OF THE PLAYERS ARE BLACK, THE WORLD WOULD BE SCREAMING AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!
LOL. Sorry for the caps, I was just playing devil’s advocate there.
Judge: "In the case of 3 month old Tracie Taylor, we find that Dirk Nowitzki .... IS the father!"
Dirk [in Hassellhoff accent]: "That baby don't look like me!"
by AR4 on Jul 9, 2009 12:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s the problem with Affirmative Action, it’s only been attached to a person’s race and little else.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
"It takes a special kind of anti-mojo for a team to miss the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons. Like, say, the Warriors under Chris Cohan."
by kenntoe on Jul 9, 2009 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Problem
The problem is that labels are used when it benefits anyone privileged, and discredited when it doesn’t. Bottom line.
Judge: "In the case of 3 month old Tracie Taylor, we find that Dirk Nowitzki .... IS the father!"
Dirk [in Hassellhoff accent]: "That baby don't look like me!"
by AR4 on Jul 9, 2009 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Affirmative action that is entirely race based would still be better than nothing, if only because entirely race based advantages have been given to whites in America for centuries.
Personally, I support affirmative action based on race/economic background though, because the gap between middle class blacks and lower class blacks is big and only growing. I don’t know how it is for other minorities, but I’d assume that a similar pattern was present.
A little known fact about affirmative action is that if it did not exist, whites would obtain only .6% (or something close to that, I remember it was less than 1% for certain) extra opportunities. Asian-Americans would obtain like 24% (or some substantial amount) more opportunities.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Personally, I support affirmative action based on race/economic background though”
I don’t see the need for race based affirmative action. However, if you want to make an argument for economic affirmative action (which benefits minorities in an indirect way), I’ll throw out the fact that the #1 determinant in how much money a person makes in their lifetime in America is their parents income…
by Missing Barry on Jul 9, 2009 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reverse racism, by definition, cannot exist. Racism involves power. No minority group in the United States has sufficient power to be racist. There are certain minority groups that have less numbers but the majority of the power (see: whites in South Africa), but in America this does not exist, and just because we have a black president doesn’t mean we don’t have a basically all white Senate, a pretty damn white Congress, an also pretty damn white Supreme Court, as well as an overwhelming majority of white major business owners.
And to make it perfectly clear, I do not think you were insinuating any of this. Basically, I was just commenting because I see people confuse discrimination and racism all the time.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just wait 50 years until we’re all being suppressed by Hispanics! :)
by Missing Barry on Jul 9, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol, yeah, I heard about that. It’s gonna be longer than 50 years though. Long after whites are a numerical minority, they will own the majority of the resources.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
one person, one vote? by your definition would Hispanics not then have more political power? Just one of many holes in an attempt to slap a relatively narrow and simple definition on a very broad and complicated issue.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 9, 2009 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not for a long time has voting been representative of the political power it should represent.
Are Hispanics at the top of virtually all the corporations? No. Will more poor/middle class Hispanics change the make up of those companies. Hell no.
Hispanics may have more votes, but they would not have more resources. Without resources, they have no influence. Without influence, they cannot achieve their agenda. There may be more women than men in a certain profession, but if you are familiar with the “glass escalator,” men tend to ascend the career ladder much faster than women. But, as one thinking similarly to you might argue, why would men dominate when women are numerically dominant? The answer is that with resources and influence, men still control the ideologies that reinforce the status quo. You’d think that blacks in South Africa would have more power because they are a large numerical majority, no? yet, that is not at all the case. So, unless you are being thick, I think you can see that a numerical majority is not important as an economic majority. With power comes the ability to impose your will on the populace, and in the case of American racism, to get minorities to go against their interests and maintain the status quo. At the moment Hispanics become a majority, they will not have a majority in Congress, House Of Reps, Supreme Court, may not have a Hispanic President, won’t have Hispanics at the heads of companies. And since the Hispanic population is influenced to vote for policies that support white dominance, it will not be a smooth transition. If it gets to a point where Hispanics overrun our key institutions, then maybe there will be more Hispanics in high positions. Even then, why would they go against the system they’ve known all their life? Eventually, in the following generations, the grip of white interests will loosen, but that is a long ways away. Can’t see it happening for a long while.
Please, tell me the holes though. I want to know exactly what you think does not make sense so I can explain it.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2009 1:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m certainly not trying to argue that economic influence isn’t incredibly important. But we do still live in a democratic society where elected officials hold the majority of the political power and are beholden to their constituencies. It is so difficult to change the long embedded status quo’s of economic power that it will certainly take decades of erosion to truly bring any change in these areas…but swaying political power does not need to be nearly so slow. Nor does there even need to be a Hispanic President, a Hispanic Judge, or even a single Hispanic Senator, the Hispanic population simply need to make their voices and ideas expressed loudly enough to assure their respective elected officials that they will use their votes to bring change if politicians don’t do it on their own. Will it create a perfect society with true equality? No way, but to totally dismiss the power of political participation as meaningless is to essentially dismiss democracy and clearly our democracy is not a totally flawed system. Yes the economic status quo works strongly against most minorities (actually it works against a large percentage of white males too) but those groups (minority and non-minority) have also historically failed at effectively exercising their power through political participation and they must accept some blame for that themselves.
Interesting that you would use South Africa as an example as the majority actually did exercise their power of majority there to effectively gain a foothold in politics (in the form of the ANC) However, economic corruption within the party and in-party fighting has essentially destroyed the people’s control over the party and politicians. Again its a case where the majority are placed at a strong economic disadvantage but they have displayed the ability to at least temporarily overcome their relative lack of resources simply by effectively flexing their power of political expression and participation.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 10, 2009 5:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also I am 99.99% sure that if you simply saw the same percentage of voter turnout among the minorities in the U.S. as there was among blacks in South Africa in the mid-late 90s the U.S. political landscape would look quite different.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 10, 2009 5:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent points
It’s not that I want to dismiss democracy’s power, it’s just that I am personally of the opinion that a huge problem in our democratic system is the lack of publicly funded elections. Since the candidates who win are basically those who can raise the most money, and to get money they need to enlist the help of giant corporations, then by the time we are able to vote the candidates have been decided for us. We are given a choice, but only after the candidates have gone through major filters. I know at least personally that I would not have voted for Obama if someone better was there (McCain didn’t do it for me either though). The process has been so perverted since the early days of our nation that when candidates are presented, a good amount of Americans (this is an assumption) do not see the point in voting for either, because the President is so distant from the people he (eventually she) supposedly serves. Candidates promise certain things to the public, and other things to those who provide them funds. Usually, they end up following the money for their decisions. It’s funny, because in recent polls, support for weed legalization is up past 40%, yet it still does not come up in the national forum. I think that the media has greatly overstepped their bounds. Obviously, by the nature of choosing what to report and what not to report, they will be biased, but they seem to be less of a mirror of society today and more of a catalyst. Even if the public has great support for something, it is not a given the media will pick up on it. Same with the government. They have other interests besides the interests of the people.
It would take huge efforts by the public to overcome the roadblocks in place. But there is no emphasis on making these huge efforts in society. The importance of voting is stressed once every four years, and for the other three years it is forgotten. I can’t blame the public for not grasping their power in a democracy if they are never taught about their power in a democracy.
I agree, there are many poor and middle class whites who get hurt by the economic status quo.
And yes, as Jae pointed out, the colloquial use for the term racism, hating another person based on skin color, should be given merit, because in reality that is what people perceive the definition as. I do not think it is a good definition because it assumes a level playing field, when in reality the consequences of the actions a racist white person have a lot more support from the system than the consequences of the actions of a “racist” black person. I am by no means saying a black person cannot discriminate, cause on a personal level, they can. Since poor whites may have experience with personal level discrimination (a white guy playing basketball in New York getting hassled or something like that), they may assume that is racism. But since are not really aware of everything that is in their favor as a white person in America, they do not realize that the sides are not equal.
Excellent points, though, again. South Africa, I can’t comment on that because I know less about it than you, but if I would hazard a guess, this would be it. In the US, when blacks were fighting for civil rights, the majority of white people sympathized, because they were being denied basic human rights, and no matter their race, a person would have to harbor a lot of hate to want to deny someone that solely based on skin color. However, and ANES polls taken throughout the decades until recently support this, when attention turned from basic rights towards implementation policies like busing and affirmative action, support plummeted. Whites assumed that with political equality, there was economic, or even social equality. So any further efforts to implement equality to them seemed like special privileges. I understand that South Africans rose up to end apartheid, but then did they want to take it any further? Or could they? Did the whites in power feel this was ideal? If you have power, you have the means to convince people your viewpoint is correct.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2009 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that I want to dismiss democracy’s power, it’s just that I am personally of the opinion that a huge problem in our democratic system is the lack of publicly funded elections.
It would take huge efforts by the public to overcome the roadblocks in place. But there is no emphasis on making these huge efforts in society. The importance of voting is stressed once every four years, and for the other three years it is forgotten. I can’t blame the public for not grasping their power in a democracy if they are never taught about their power in a democracy.
I don’t disagree with you at all on those. I think we are largely on the same page, I was sorta just nitpicking but because its an issue with the potential to become so complex so quickly with the potential to be easily misunderstood it seemed like a much bigger disagreement than it was. …..kinda like Amare to the Warriors
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 10, 2009 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
S.A.
My South Africa political history knowledge is quite rusty and quite basic to begin with, but I remembered that it seemed to me that the main problems they confronted after ending apartheid were derived from the fact that they had built this super-party (the ANC) unified only by the goal of ending apartheid and thus there was a lot of confusion and disagreement over the future goals of the ANC. Something like 65-80% of the public identified with and voted for the ANC but very few of them actually understand what they were supporting or voting for and in fact very few within the party understood the desires of their constituency and…..well you can see how that could turn into all kinds of mess of dirty politics, lack of accurate representation, corruption, confusion and political participatory discouragement.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 10, 2009 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps with that definition of racism ‘reverse racism’ cannot exist, but ‘reverse prejudice’ certainly can. I suspect that most people in colloquial speak use the two interchangeably.
by jae on Jul 9, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prejudice=negative thoughts
Discrimination=acting on prejudice.
Which I said at the very bottom, people confuse the two all the time.
But reverse prejudice barely ever has consequences because there is no power to back it up. It can exist, but only on an extreme micro-level, like a community that is heavily dominated by minorities (and even that, the discrimination will likely only exist on a personal level, because on a professional level there is a lot of gentrification and white-owned businesses moving into communities across America).
It’s not “that” definition. It is the definition. People may object to it, but no other definition is practical because it would deny reality. Colloquially people confuse it all the time, but basically, it comes down to this. Black people (as a representative example of minorities) can discriminate. Black people cannot be racist. When black people are scared of white people, what exactly can they do with no power? Call a white person a cracker? Exclude them from a basketball game? When white people are scared of black people, they have the entire system behind them. They can set up racist laws (harsher penalties for crack rather than cocaine), lynch (back in the day, though who knows if it still happens), convict them (disproportionate numbers of minorities in prison), etc.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not "that" definition. It is the definition. People may object to it, but no other definition is practical because it would deny reality.
It is the definition because I say so and everyone who disagrees is wrong.
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 9, 2009 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me how other races are holding down the dominant group, which in the case of America is whites then.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2009 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
holding down? again, that assumes a specific (and perhaps subjective) definition of the concept
Thing A
by sam23 on Jul 10, 2009 5:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Prejudice=negative thoughts
Not really, they can be pre judged positive thoughts too. And the amount of power doesn’t matter in racist thoughts, powerless can hate as much as powerful, they just act out in different ways. The real solution is treat others the way you’d want them to treat you ,this takes care of all sides of the problem.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 9, 2009 11:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For sure, they can be positive, or at least appear to be positive. But a lot of the time what are seen as positive stereotypes end up being negative. Like, blacks have large penises (reinforces black man as overly sexual, animalistic), Asians are smart (puts unfair pressure on Asians to live up to what they should be), etc.
But, a few things.
One, in a society where we are taught to value white as supreme, many people have pro-white tendencies, subliminal or not. If you read Jim Sidanius or Lawrence Bobo, you’d see that they tested for something called Social Dominance effect, and found it highest in white people and lowest in black people. The lower down on the scale you are, the more you are for equality.
Two, definitely, the powerless can hate just as much as the powerful. I would not deny that. But what does that mean? What can they do with that hate, and no power? You say they hate in different ways, but can they set up laws that disproportionately send blacks to jail for crack while penalizing less cocaine that is more prevalent in affluent, white dominated communities? Can they make up the majority of the police force and disproportionately stop minorities while driving?
What can they do, exactly? No one has answered me this. How are blacks “keeping down” whites? What are the ways?
And also, racism might not be a problem for you, you may just treat others the way you’d want to be treated, but that does not mean that everyone abides by your rules. Extrapolating your behavior on the public is dangerous.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2009 1:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Extrapolating your behavior on the public is dangerous.
Showing respect is dangerous? Not knowing the difference between good and bad is dangerous but that has nothing to do with race, about 99% of people are good hearted no matter their color. People think what they were taught to think. We need education not more hate. Give a person of a different race the same smile you give a person of your race and see how that works? You’d be surprised how the barriers disappear.
Now wheres the rubbers? Whose got the rubbers?
I noticed there's so many of them
and there's really not that many of us.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 10, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You definitely misunderstood me there. I am not saying your ideas won’t work for you. But just because you do them does not mean it is not a problem. Acting like if you act as if race doesn’t exist and have real consequences does not make it so for the rest of society.
So your solution of “give a person of a different race the same smile you give a person of your race” would be good if everyone followed that, but you would have to be very naive to assume that the solution is as simple as saying that we should do this. What is dangerous is assuming the public acts in similar ways as you want them to, not what you want them to do.
I’m sorry for the confusion, if I still don’t make sense tell me.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2009 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would caution when you say it is “the definition” that you are referencing a particular definition in the context of socio economic and political realm that it appears whomever taught your seminar decided was the particular focus above and excluding all others. The particular definition you are claiming is “the definition” references a particular realm of institutional racism, which is generally the context referenced in sociology.
Racism itself has broader meaning in different contexts and in that sense. Words have meaning because we allow them to but we do not always arrive at precisely the same. Colloquial meanings matter. If you want to look up the etymology of the word (I have, long before this context) earlier definitions it does not reference the power differential, but refers to a belief that members of each racial group [ignoring altogether how altogether fuzzy these things are] harbor traits particular to the race, “especially to distinguish it as being either superior or inferior to another racial group” or racial groups. No such reference to the power inequality was noted. “The definition” here is different, yet still valid and I suspect much more in line with what people mean when they use the term.
by jae on Jul 10, 2009 12:28 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
For sure, point taken. Nothing to say except you’re right.
by belilaugh on Jul 10, 2009 1:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a lot of decisions factored in to why the Pacers have 6 white players (which deviates from the norm on an NBA roster). Part of the explanation could be the way the players fit into the system. Part of the explanation could also be character makeup. The Pacers organization has been embarrassed the last couple of years, so you can see why they’d might not want a guy who’s red flagged. RACE could have played apart in this decision, but you can’t go out and call Bird a Racist. That’s ignorant and not really correct.
Now would anyone be asking this question if the Pacers turned out to be a playoff team? There’s no race quota in this league, team’s can carry all White rosters all Black rosters, shoot even all Green and Yellow rosters, as long as they have talent. Racism and Prejudice still exist in our society, and it’s within all of us to certain extents, no matter how much we claim we’re tolerant. Personal and racial bias’ could’ve been a factor in trading for and drafting White players in Indiana. But I’m hoping that it has more to do with talent and team fit than the color of one’s skin.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
"It takes a special kind of anti-mojo for a team to miss the playoffs 14 out of 15 seasons. Like, say, the Warriors under Chris Cohan."
by kenntoe on Jul 9, 2009 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bird:
I don’t think it’s being racist; it’s the type of players he sees bringing the kind of basketball he wants to see the team play.
The Celtics used to have a mix of white players on their team and the team chemistry was very good, but by and large the better players today are not white, this is one of the reason I like the NBA so much. Because to me it transcends color, you hardly ever think of the race issue, it is never a consideration when wanting to get the best player for the team, the only consideration is what puts the best team on the floor.
We all want Amare, and we want to trade our only white players, and that thought never occurred to me until right now, it was not even a consideration.
If Bird is making decisions based on race then he would be inept,
I think he looks for a certain type of player hankering back to the old Celtics days: but it would be hard to believe he’s raciest: and if he is a raciest, lets give him what he wants and get Granger =)
by ForestGrump on Jul 9, 2009 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
who cares,this guy is going too much into detail thats not neccessary.
Its time for a change...
by RunNdGun on Jul 9, 2009 3:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
longing for the day.....
when this won’t matter anymore….i have never understood the term racism….the meaning of the word is to hate or hold to a lower standard for a persons race, not trying to win a nobel peace prize but arent we all part of the human race? I feel that Larry is signing the players he feels are going to fill the slots we need best without seeing color. The people that have written about this (kravitz mostly, i dont know the GSW guy) are the ones causing the issue. To even bring it to the surface and suggest this is a possible is very colorist (my word for racist) on the part of the journo. my thoughts………. sorry ill step off my soap box….
by allthingsindy on Jul 9, 2009 3:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There’s nothing wrong with voicing your opinion, don’t worry. However, you should recognize that there are subconscious racial issues at play that we can’t help. As much as we all would like race not to be an issue, it is, and that’s not going away. We have subconscious perceptions of people based on racial factors, and pretending that doesn’t exist does nothing to try to overcome the problem.
“I feel that Larry is signing the players he feels are going to fill the slots we need best without seeing color.”
I do not believe Larry Bird is racist, and his primary goal is finding basketball players that will win as many games as possible for the Pacers. That said, he will judge players subconsciously by race, it’s a natural thing we all do. Next time “experts” are on tv comparing some prospect to another player, take note of the fact that white players tend to get compared to each other and black players tend to get compared to each other. It’s a product of these subconscious judgements. Black players are probably more likely to be described as “athletic” while white players are probably more likely to be described as “unathletic”, and also I would guess more likely to be given the great praise of “high basketball IQ”. So the point is the issue is there, ignoring it won’t make it go away…
by Missing Barry on Jul 9, 2009 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Barry, you seem like you know what you’re talking about. Question though, have you ever taken those implicit association tests on the harvard website? Those are some scary results.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colorism is a separate issue from racism allthingsindy, it involves, at least in America, the dominance of lighter skinned people of any race over darker skinned people.
However, to bring an issue of race up is definitely not racist, that is dangerous thinking. In pretty much any situation, you can see some racial aspects. The question is, is it an important factor? Like, seeing Murphy get a double double in a league that is predominantly black has elements of race, but I do not think anyone would consider that racism (although maybe how he got to the NBA could have involved racism, I am not suggesting this is the case for Murphy particularly, just saying it potentially exists).
But, here’s the thing. Ever since that fight at Auburn Hills the team has had an image problem. I don’t necessarily know if the image problem is warranted, but it exists. They got rid of perceived malcontents like Tinsley, Jackson, and Artest, and replaced them with guys they considered more clean and acceptable to the Indianan (Indian? Indianese I have no idea) masses. If you leave it at that, it is not racist. But what goes through Bird’s mind when he is making decisions about who is clean? Clearly it is not only race, otherwise Granger would be playing for another team. But I find it hard to believe that Bird does not think at least a little that white players will remind the fanbase less of the “savages” at Auburn Hills. In addition, the perception of Hansbrough seems to be a good old all-American boy. He plays hard, and he stayed for four years. But maybe another factor in him being seen as a clean cut All-American is that he is white. I mean, Terrence Williams stayed for four years, and I didn’t hear a lot of praise for his decision (although I could be wrong, that is just from what I heard). Joakim Noah wasn’t exactly hailed as a good old All-American boy. Well, you say, that could be because he got caught smoking weed. But I have news for everybody, almost everyone, white or black or whatever, smokes weed at college. My friend rolled a blunt with Jonny Flynn. I go to UCLA, and I’ve seen the players, including the white Dragovic, at parties effing around. I find it hard to believe that Hansbrough did not do something in his four years there.
So people can debate the merits of how racist it is, or how racist it isn’t, but I’d find it hard to believe race is not a factor. Though people assume we’re in a post-racial society (and there’s been studies done, since Obama got elected perceived discrimination has went down), race is as salient an issue as ever. Sweeping it under the rug is not the answer. There needs to be an honest dialogue about it, not a lack of awareness. Because ignoring a problem does not make the problem go away, it just makes the problem more dangerous.
by belilaugh on Jul 9, 2009 6:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Its funny...
Bird is not racist.
Indiana fans love winners regardless if they are black or white. I know some Indiana Pacer fans that think Reggie Miller is a God and their farming rural white crackers.
Affirmative action’s spirit is great. I think everyone should have a fair chance. Problem is that you can’t make everyone happy all the time. I knew rich minorities that got to go to wonderful universities and also knew poor white kids that didn’t get accepted into those same universities. I think right now in 2009 some large companies and universities take on qualified people strictly based on the fact that they haven’t filled their “quota for hiring a minority”. Because of that, there are a lot of qualified people that don’t get that job or get accepted into university based on their race. Is that racism? Who knows? Two wrongs don’t make a right…
by gabezgsw on Jul 10, 2009 11:19 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

by 

























