Speaking Out Against Amar'e

by Cdoleshel on Jul 9, 2009 11:02 AM PDT Comment 24 comments

I don't know about you guys, but is there anyone else out there who thinks they should absolutely not make this trade? I understand all of the benefits Amar'e Stoudamire brings to the table, but is he really worth all of this?

Like most of you, I've heard all of these Amare rumors going around and the Warriors sending Phoenix Andris Biedrins, Brandan Wright, Marco Belinelli, and Kelenna Azubuike for Amar'e and how we are supposed to get that low post 4 we've been looking for who rebounds and scores on the block, something we've been begging for for years as fans.

However, does anyone realize that we are giving away our most consistent rebounder to do that? Andris absolutely inhales rebounds and Kelenna and Brandan get their share too and I think you could see Wright get even more if he played healthy for a season. Fact is, Amar'e has never average 10 rebounds per game for an entire season IN HIS CAREER. NOT ONCE. In fact, if you look at their career rebounding numbers, Amar'e doesn't even have a 1 rebound lead over Andris in their RPG (rebounds per game 8.7 to 8.2 for career) Even to another point, Andris protects the ball much better than Amar'e; career numbers have Amar'e at 2.6 TOPG Andris's 1.1. Let's not forget also, Amar'e is coming off another major surgery and has a slight injury tag and would be looking for a big deal heading into his 30's soon. Andris won't be 24 until most of the way through next season and hasn't had a single major injury.

Not only that, but then you'd be throwing the Suns another 14 PPG and 5 RBP from Kelenna, 8 PPG and 4 RPG from Wright (who hasn't turned 22 yet, though is fighting the injury prone tag right now) and even another 8 PPG from Belinelli who I think could be a great asset off the bench, if not starter a la Manu Ginobili for the Warriors if given a chance; It might be a stretch, but wouldn't be surprised if he turned out along those lines.

So total they would be sending the Suns 42 PPG, 22 RPG from 4 players, only one over the age of 25(Kelenna) with only one on a contract paying any significant amount of money (Biedrins) and two players who have shown they can more than handle themselves as players in this league (Wright and Belinelli)

I can't believe the Warriors actually offered this trade because if they did and Steve Kerr turned it down he should be fired. The Suns "rebuilding" process would be started and finished with this trade with the talent they would receive.

Andris steps in to replace Shaq as a big man who rebounds and gets up and down the floor to better suit Alvin Gentry's pace.

Wright gives them another big to fill the floor with great length and athleticism to start or back up Louis Amundson.

Kelenna steps in to fill the opening left by Grant Hill at either the 2 or the 3 and fills their need of a spot up shooter who can create his own shot as well.

Marco gives them a 1-2 combo guard that they could really use since they don't have a solid back up guard who can distribute the ball and score some as well since Dragic isn't there yet and Barbosa doesn't pass enough.

I can't believe this deal hasn't happened from the Suns side, but I am very grateful from the Warriors. I am glad that Phoenix is hung up on Stephen Curry not being in the deal because it allows us to keep the talent we have that we could have foolishly gotten rid of. The Warriors are a talented team, it's just a matter of sorting through what talent they want to keep and what they want to get rid of. They need to decide if Monta is their player to build around or not so they can figure out where to go with their glut of guards. Decide if Stephen Jackson is your starting SG or PF or in between depending on Nellie's planning. Figure out if they can trade Maggette or if they will keep splitting up very small minutes to Anthony Morrow, Kelenna, Marco, CJ Watson and Co. Decide if they like Wright as much as many do and if they want him around. Figure out if Anthony Randolph is a 3, 4 or 5. Last but not least, figure out where Stephen Curry is even going to play.

If Riley can actually figure this out and bring in a low post player who gives the Warriors some more grit, defense, rebounding and energy to play in their uptempo offense, then great. I just hope he uses some discretion along the way because I am one Warriors fan hoping Amar'e stays away from the Bay Area given the costs.

Thoughts?

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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“Thoughts?”

You make it sound like we’re the reigning champions or something…

by Missing Barry on Jul 9, 2009 11:20 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I am beginning to agree....

We would be giving up a great deal….to get someone who it seems really does not want to be here?

Would Amare = a championship run for us, I dont think so. But what it might give us is another Al Harrington scenario. A player who really doesnt want to be here and thus wont give his all when in uniform.

Personally I would like us to see if we can make a trade of Brandon Wright/CJ for maybe an expiring contract that “might” add some power to our forward position?

Thus keeping Biedrins, Marco (who I think if given the chance will truly surprise some people). it would be nice to trade Magette’s contract, which is a shame as I actually like the input he can make to games at times,it’s just the “Moonscape” of a contract that I truly dislike, which was a RR in full “flap mode” decision.

Unfortunately I believe this year will be a make or break year for our “supposed” future stars to shine and if they dont, then we “slash and burn” (hopefully with a new owner) in the 2010 season.

We’ll see…..

It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!

by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 9, 2009 12:29 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

“Personally I would like us to see if we can make a trade of Brandon Wright/CJ for maybe an expiring contract that "might" add some power to our forward position?”

I don’t see what the point of this is?

by Missing Barry on Jul 9, 2009 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two players gone...

One player that goes after a year and if he adds something this year to the mix then so be it?

Then we have
A. Law
S. Claxton
(AN Other P forward)
Maybe a few other players if they dont prove themselves this year, to all go by the end of the year then we make a HUGE play for a couple of “franchise improving” players in the 2010 FA pool…

Just bouncing some ideas around…… I dont have all the answers or even some of the answers… just throwing it out there..

It's about heart, It's about fight, It's about being a Warrior!

by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 10, 2009 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

CJ isn’t under contract. Trading him as such is somewhat problematic.

by jae on Jul 12, 2009 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want Amare on our team.

The end.

Romes Mac Mojous

by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Jul 9, 2009 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

you can't add up stats of multiple players vs. one when looking at a trade

Because the multiple players will always appear better. If you were the Lakers, would you trade Kobe for Jackson, Maggette, Wright, and Buike? Heck no. But those guys combined average 62 ppg vs. Kobe’s 27 ppg!!!!! Come on. You can’t look at a trade like this.

You have to look at the difference to the totals of each 8 of 9 man rotation.

For example, you can’t look at the trade this way: Biedrins, Wright, Azubuike, and Belo for Amare.

Rather, you must look at it this way:

Curry
Ellis, Azubuike
Jackson, Maggette
Randolph, Wright
Biedrins

vs.

Curry
Ellis, Morrow
Jackson, Maggette
Randolph
Stoudemire, Turiaf

I’d definitely take the second rotation. You might be wondering why Morrow and Turiaf are missing in the first rotation. Here’s why: there just AREN’T ENOUGH MINUTES TO GO AROUND. The Warriors have too many guys that do the same kinds of things. Why cling to Wright and Buike when we have Randolph, Maggette, Morrow and Turiaf? Do we want them on the court rather than Randolph and Morrow? No. Are we stuck with Maggette? Yes. Do we need Turiaf’s bulk? Yes. So, I don’t see how the proposed trade is ludicrous at all. In fact, it’s kind of a slam dunk.

by eastbayglory on Jul 9, 2009 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs

Why cling to Wright and Buike when we have Randolph, Maggette, Morrow and Turiaf?

Because we believe that the unknown entities on the bench are stars waiting to happen and all they need is time. Because we live in perpetual fear that any player that we get rid of will be the superstar that would have led us out of the mess. It’s irrational.

by jae on Jul 9, 2009 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

your comparison of Amare and Biedrins' stats is also quite ridiculous

you can’t say Andris takes care of the ball better than Amare simply by looking at their turnover numbers. Do you think Amare has the ball in his hands a little more than Bieds given that he averages over twice as many points per game and goes to the line about 500% more?

Also, the rebounding. I know we love Bieds’ rebounding numbers but my guess is that number would go down if he wasn’t always out on an island in the paint. Plus no one seems to account for the fact that Amare is a players teams gameplan for, Biedrins is not. Even on the defensive end, Amare is just a bigger presence. He will make teams approach the Warriors differently.

by eastbayglory on Jul 9, 2009 1:27 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs

my guess is that number would go down if he wasn’t always out on an island in the paint.

How much would they go down? A half a board a game? 5.5 per 36 minutes? My ‘guess’, informed by patterns of players rebounding rates suggests it wouldn’t go down much. It’s peculiar that whenever someone talks as if Biedrins rebounding is padded by playing on the Warriors, there is no plausible explanation for why Turiaf did not see his rebounding improve over what it was when he was with the Lakers.

by jae on Jul 9, 2009 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Agreed. It’s not the system that determines rebounding rate, its the player and how they play the game. Biedrins gobbles up rebounds when Turiaf is looking for the block.

WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...

by JustSomeName on Jul 10, 2009 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But here’s the thing: When Turiaf started when Biedrins got hurt, he didn’t look to block shots as much. His blocked shots dropped considerably as he had to avoid fouling out. His rebounds increased by about a half a rebound per 36 minutes. It was still about what it was in LA when there were other players there to assist in rebounding. Whether or not he was looking to block more shots didn’t have a big impact on Turiaf’s rebound rate, nor did playing as the lone big. The biggest influence seems to be his actual ability to rebound.

by jae on Jul 10, 2009 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 9, 2009 1:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes you can add up numbers and it isn't ridiculous

Actually most teams would trade a superstar for that kind of return. Not the returning champions who is the only team Kobe has ever played for, but you think if you offered Miami something like that for Wade they wouldn’t take it? They might not want to at first, but you really think they wouldn’t?

Second. The second rotation you list leaves the Warriors so paper thin in depth it’s not even funny. You take their weakest position and leave it completely on Randolph’s shoulders? Wow. Sure Amar’e has the ball in his hands more because he forces the issue on offense more and takes some bad shots and doesn’t pass out of situations as well as Biedrins. Am I arguing Biedrins is a better player? Not at all, but he does have some qualities that exceed Amar’e’s in ways. About the game planning, if you had watched even just the first ten Warriors games this year, or even the whole season, you would have seen how teams adjusted to Biedrins having the ball in his hands more often while taking on more offensive responsibility so don’t get me started there.

Also, Amar’e plays no D, don’t even act like his size alone is a presence because size doesn’t do anything for D once people know you can’t play it (see Shawn Bradley) Biedrins is a better defender in his effort alone than Stoudamire is all around.

Again this isn’t saying who’s the better player, this is looking at the pros and cons of a potential trade and if you read what I typed of course there aren’t enough minutes to go around, but go after someone you know will be around for a few years, who actually wants to be around, and gives you something MUCH BETTER than what you are giving away instead of trading proven production that he won’t be able to replace on the rebounding or defensive end especially on yet another massive, this time maximum, contract.

by Cdoleshel on Jul 9, 2009 1:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s not ridiculous to say you think the proposed trade for Amar’e, given his flaws, would be unwise. I share your concerns about Amar’e’s poor D and passing.

It is completely ridiculous to make “Frankenplayers” (thanks, antihero!) to support your your argument.

“CJ Jack-gette” is a 48/14/10 guy: are you saying you wouldn’t trade that three-headed Frankenbeast of a player for LeBron James and his paltry 28/7/7?

JAE, citing Dave Berri, recently pointed out that in the NBA your top three players are roughly 174,845 times as important as all of your other players combined. My numbers could be off by a bit, but the basic point stands: if you can get an elite player in his prime — and by elite, I mean all-around elite, not just offensively — you give up whatever non-elite players you have, no matter how “thin” it makes your roster. And you pop the champagne and take off your pants and do the Watusi around your living room.

Thing 1

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 9, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

I checked your math, it’s actually 173,471. Not bad for an estimate though.

Thing C

by markdash on Jul 9, 2009 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

no, the Heat would not trade D Wade for Jackson, Maggette, Wright, and Azubuike. Period.

by eastbayglory on Jul 9, 2009 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

GET OVER AMARE

It’s over, he has gone out of his way to humiliate our team and made it clear that no amount of money would be enough for him to be a Warrior! The hell with him!

Let’s hope for another trade otherwise we have failed this summer.

Judge: "In the case of 3 month old Tracie Taylor, we find that Dirk Nowitzki .... IS the father!"

Dirk [in Hassellhoff accent]: "That baby don't look like me!"

by AR4 on Jul 9, 2009 2:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think he said that

He’s looking to get paid a max contract. He has to position himself to do that with the team he is signed to right now. I’m sure he’s not going to complain where his check comes from, as long as it comes.

Confident Marco Belinelli supporter

by Doctor Kajita on Jul 9, 2009 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1. I definitely didn't hear him say that. There is way too much conjecture out there about what he said. Bottom line: it wasn't much.

by eastbayglory on Jul 9, 2009 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed about Amare

Given he’s a tremendous offensive talent, he’s not worth a max deal at all in my opinion. Unless he somehow struck an epiphany to play defense that Lebron suddenly came upon this past year, i would pass on signing Amare long term.

by spacedout on Jul 9, 2009 7:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

My response to the people concerned about giving out a max deal – who WOULD you give a max deal to, and how exactly are we supposed to acquire one of the very limited number of players that makes that list?

by Missing Barry on Jul 9, 2009 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

My simple answer is… If no one is worth a max deal out there, then a max deal should not be given.

Given the understatement, it’s difficult to acquire a player like Lebron, KG, or DWade on our team, but it’s also worth a shot to make that attempt despite the odds. In the end, you can say ‘we gave it a shot at least’ instead of not trying at all. You’ll just hafto accept not having a true-max player on the team. If you’re not satisfied, then i can’t help you there.

by spacedout on Jul 12, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs