Nellie Does Not Hate Bigs

by Ro3ert0 on Aug 13, 2009 12:27 AM PDT

During our tenure with Don Nelson as head coach of the Golden State Warriors we have come to learn once again a different, unique style of basketball called smallball (Nellieball). This style "supposedly" emphasizes agility of small, wing players to outmatch slow, lumbering bigs. Smallball is an up-tempo, run n gun, style of basketball and under Don Nelson, focuses on taking the first, best available shot presented per possession. While entertaining for many people, Nellieball is eratic and not very efficient without the proper pieces in a team. As a fan of the NBA, we all love up-tempo, freestyle, three-point shooting games where there is no lull in the game but constant excitement. And that is what everybody, especially those fans who do not have NBA teams which are willing to run n gun, believe what Nellieball is.

But Nellieball, isn't what we all have come to think of it as... a point guard, 2 or 3 shooting guards/small forwards and a center/power forward... Nellieball is just every player, no matter the position, capable of creating his own shot (with range of necessary) and using his agility to better his defender.

A lot of us, including myself at one point, have come to believe that Nelson does not like playing bigs. But that is not true, the thing that seperates Nelson from other coaches is that he demands a very specific type of post player to get constant minutes in his rotation. Nelson prefers bigs who can spread the floor, rebound, pass effectively out of a double-team and (if lucky enough) have a post-game. But Nellie is picky, if his PF or C does not do more than one of these things, he sits him on the bench and usally brings in a smaller player for his agility and ability to spread the floor. If Nelson, however, were to have an effiicient, big who can do more than one thing stated above, then he will certainly get consistent playing time.

If we look at Don Nelson's previous bigs we can see a common thing:

1) Al Harrington - Most recent, we have come to love/hate Harrington for his ability to spread the floor and occasionally provide a spark in the offense. However, his lack of a post-game and inability to rebound caused Nelson to move him to the bench and use him occasionally, especially during 4th qtr, crunch time scenarios.

2) Dirk Nowitzki - Great shooter, mediocre post-presence and decent rebounder.. Enough to get him sufficient playing time under Nellie. Since he did enough of what Nellie demands in a big, Nellie played him. His shooting stood out and is exactly what Nellie wants, a big who can spread the floo and rebound.

3) Antawn Jamison & Antoine Walker - Perfect players under Nellie in Dallas, SFs who can play the PF spot and still spread the floor. Jamison is a good rebounder for his size and though Walker was not a good rebounder, they both could spread the floor very well while providing somewhat of an inside threat. Though not efficient, both players could play within Nellie's system.

(PS: what would have happened if we had Jamison still... a legit PF who can shoot and rebound.. a much better Al Harrington I think!!)

4) Mike Dunleavy Jr & Troy Murphy - CHARMING SOFT... straight up! Hah, no well Dunleavy just couldn't rebound or hit open shots at the PF spot and Murphy got hurt. Murphy is back to his beastin mode in Indiana like he was back prior to his injurt with us. But under our current style of play, he is much better suited as a bench player. Someone who can rebound, shoot decently and as someone who has enough heart to carry a team at times. (I loved watching Murphy play against Tim Duncan). These players couldnt do what Nelson asked and such we discarded them for others.

The fact is that Nelson has no problem playing bigs so long as they do what Nellie requires in a big. Right now we do not have that in our roster. All of our bigs cannot spread the floor nor create their own shot. Biedrins is a beast but thats only on the boards or in a pick and roll situations ( yes and putbacks!). Turiaf is a defensive minded center, thats alright with me! Randolph and Wright are inconsistent both with their outside and inside game. If we look at players that are gone now which played under Nelson, Zarko... NO, Adonal.. Turiaf without an outside shot, Croshere.. Nope, Rob Kurz didnt rebound, defend or shoot well enough.. though apparently he was a good "rotation" player.. and Jermario Davidson is just not ready yet.

WE don't have bigs ready to play under what Nelson has wanted since he started coaching and unless he does get specific bigs who can play with what he demands, Nelson would prefer playing SFs and SGs who, under Nelson's type of style, always have range on their shot. Corey Maggette, Stephen Jackson and Kelenna Azubuike when playing at the PF spot all have range and agility to take their defending PF off the dribble.

Nelson does not hate bigs nor does he prefer playing smalls over bigs, he just demands a big who can accomplish what he asks. Like a Nowitzki or Amare (even Shaq! Nellie as coach of the Knicks got run out of NY because he tried to trade Ewing to free cap space to sign a free-agent to be Shaq, SHAQ playing under Nelson is like WTF, but the man can rebound and command a double-team!), someone who can post, spread the floor and rebound is what Nelson craves for in a big. Until Nelson gets a player like that or truly believes Wright or Randolpy can accomplish these tasks, we will continue to see (however regretabble) Maggette, Jackson, Azubuike and some other random SGs and SFs play the PF/C spot.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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So by "does not hate bigs" you mean...

…hates the majority of big men who have been taught all their playing careers to “go post up and get in position for the rebound, and whatever you do, do not shoot from outside because no one will be underneath the rim to rebound when you miss,” but Nelson likes dominant players and guys who can shoot the outside shot and drive by their man.

You are right, he does not hate “bigs” per se, but, according to what you describe, he has a strong preference for players that don’t play your typical big man game. I think he has no patience with players that can’t run and values efficient shooting and scoring over rebounding and defending. This just happens to disproportionately negatively impact playing time for big, slow, half-court, inside the paint type players. As much as I value defense and rebounding, its hard to argue with the appeal of dynamic multi-talented players and the success Nelson has had. Luckily, our “bigs” this year look like they might just be dynamic multi-talented players.

by toddaverth on Aug 13, 2009 4:58 AM PDT reply actions

He dislikes most big men.

It’s not like Nellie would prefer a smaller line-up like a lot of people say, the only reason he goes smallball is because he lacks the type of big men that he thinks would excel in his type of offense. I’ve heard people say that smallball is just the result of not having any big men. Which is somewhat true with Nellie, because even though he does have big men the reason he doesn’t play them is because they’re not the right big men.

I agree a lot with the OP because I use that same argument whenever there’s a discussion about certain big men in Nellie’s offense. Some non-Warriors fans tend to think that Nellie’s offense is only small ball and that he can’t really do that much with it because he always plays guards, but in reality Nellie would know exactly what to do with a big man as long as there’s good versatility in his game; that would make his offense even more deadly. The problem is that Nellie hasn’t had a big man like that in years, I don’t consider Biedrins as “that big man” because he has no offensive game and only rebounds (not a go-to scorer in the paint, for now), but maybe Anthony Randolph can be that guy. And pairing an extremely energetic Anthony Randolph with a highly efficient garbage man in Biedrins can do wonders, in my opinion. It can work since the two big men are quick and athletic while one of them has a versatile game to compliment the other.

We’ve seen Nellie have success in the past when he’s had great big men, but some non-Warriors fans think that he wouldn’t know what to do if he had a 20/10 big man. He helped the Bucks get to the ECF, had the Warriors looking like a future powerhouse in the West when they still had C-Webb, and consistently made it to the Playoffs with Dirk. You can also imagine how good his other teams would be if they had a good big man. What if Run TMC had a good inside presence to go along with them, instead of just Tom Tolbert? What if the We Believe Warriors had another athletic rebounding big man on their team to help Biedrins out in the Playoffs?

PG: Baron Davis
SG: Jason Richardson
SF: Stephen Jackson
PF: Anthony Randolph
C: Andris Biedrins

They probably could have advanced to the WCF with that type of line-up, but obviously it’s just fantasy.

But yeah, I doubt there’s that many coaches out there that could have led the injured and battered 06-07 Warriors into the Playoffs (Baron was out for 3 weeks due to injury, J-Rich was out for 2 months due to a freak hand injury, guys like Pietrus and Murphy had broken noses, we didn’t have Jackson/Harrington till the second half of the season etc. etc. etc.) and even pulling off a crazy upset like Nellie did with that unexperienced team (youngest team in the postseason; only Baron, Harrington and Jackson had some real Playoff experience). He did amazingly well with the 07-08 team as well. Sure, they started off 1-6, but they bounced back with a huge winning streak and didn’t lose back to back games until the last month of the season. If the season started after the 1-6 start, then the Warriors would have been the number one seed in the Western Conference for a majority of the season. They would have been tied with the NBA Champs (Boston Celtics) for the best record in the league for most of that year, but not that many people noticed that because those 6 games that we lost to start the season made a big difference in standings; that’s how close and competitve the West was that season. The only complaint I have with Nellie that season is that he could have played the bench more, but hey, 48 wins is a damn lot.

Obviously Nellie can’t do crap when he has to rebuild a team full of young and inexperienced players (look at the 08-09 season; youngest team in the league, meaning that we didn’t have much depth which resulted in a ton of losses since everyone was getting injured anyways), but when given the right players he can do some amazing things. Give him a Baron Davis and that’s almost a guaranteed 40+ wins right there, give him a dominant 20/10 big man like Kevin Garnett and Nellie can do wonders. Would Phil Jackson have had the same success if he didn’t get to coach Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O’Neal, Pau Gasol etc? Would Greg Poppavich still be able to win all those championships if he didn’t have Tony Parker or Tim Duncan? Great coaches do great things when they have the right players to work with. Now i’m not saying that Nellie would have championships if given the right players (he had his chance with Nash and Dirk and also with Paul Pressly), but he might be considered one of the best coaches. That’s why I never really got mad at Nellie last season like a lot of other people were. Some people were blaming the crappy season because of him and used him as a scape goat.

I still think Nellie’s mindset is still good. I don’t think he’s crazy at all. Sure, there were some times where Nellie made some questionable moves, but what can you really expect from the youngest team in the league that always kept getting injured? Especially with Monta out for the first 3 months of the season, Maggette out for a month and the team having to rely on bench players and d-league scrubs to make up for lost contribution from guys on the inactive list. Don’t forget that he is the guy who turned Anthony Randolph into a humble star in the making. I still have faith in him as our coach.

This isn’t completely directed towards toddaverth, only the first paragraph is. lol.

by Precise Films Productions on Aug 15, 2009 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions

Question: Did Fabricio Oberto fit the Nellie-big mold?

I don’t know much about Oberto, but his passing and post-up game seemed quite good. I wouldn’t say he got up and down the court very quickly, but from what I can remember from his stint in San Antonio- he always seemed to be in the right place at the right time.

What are your thoughts on Oberto and the fact we either didn’t pursue him or get him in a Warriors uniform?

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Todd to Comer: "Because if you had, he wouldn't listen to it. BOOM. Roasted."
Nico to Todd: "Shouldn't you be off voguing somewhere?"

by BixBeiderbecke on Aug 13, 2009 7:35 AM PDT reply actions

Probably not

He may be able to be in the right place at the right time like “Rob Kurz” but he doesn’t seem to be able to do much else.

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
Career — 274 108 15.3 0.572 0.000 0.603 1.5 2.4 3.9 0.9 0.3 0.2 0.68 2.20 3.6

You must have seen a game(s) where Oberto played especially well because his numbers don’t seem that impressive so far. His assists aren’t what you explain they are and the year where he played as a starter the longest show him averaging about 5.2 rebounds per game which is not good for a starting C. The man just seems sluggish. If we had him right now, he would play third string backup C because he can only play that position. Not so much for a Nellie-big mold.

I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury

by Ro3ert0 on Aug 13, 2009 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions

You know what? You're right!

It was the Lakers/Spurs series in 2007/08 and prolly a few games shown at bars here in LA when the ubiquitous Lakers were playing them. He was prolly playing against Pau Gasol or Chris Mihm. I can’t quite remember, as I try not to when it comes to the Lakers or their victories.

I more than likely was rooting for the Spurs and him, if only to see the Lakes lose.

(glad Nellie didn’t go after him, now that all is said and done. i just happened to read that he recently got picked up somewhere in the newspapers or something. thanks for your response Ro3erto.)

by BixBeiderbecke on Aug 13, 2009 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions

Nellie as coach of the Knicks got run out of NY because he tried to trade Ewing to free cap space to sign a free-agent to be Shaq

This is rather different from the stories I’ve heard. Nelson wanted to change the offense to have Ewing share the post with Anthony Mason. Mason was a much better passer and it would have diversified the otherwise boring and predictable “let’s work it in to Ewing” offense. Ewing refused to change his game and called for Nellie’s head. Knicks management knew that it was easier to replace a coach than to replace a dominant center.

by jae on Aug 13, 2009 8:31 AM PDT reply actions

I follow the Knicks pretty closely and I’ve actually heard both stories.

But back in 1995-1996 if you weren’t going to run your offense through Ewing in the post you better have Michael Jordan on your team or else that makes zero sense. (Probably a bigger Ewing fan than Nellie fan and that’s saying something.)

Golden State of Mind :: Always keeping it... "Unstoppable Baby!"

by Atma Brother ONE on Aug 13, 2009 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions

Criteria for a Nellie Big (IMO)

Prerequisite is He has to be athletic enough to run the court, AND (just as important) have court awareness of whats going on around him. Other than that if he can do any of these things he’ll find time…

1. Rebounds
2. spread floor
3. pass
4. defend

The thing is. Biedrins is extremely limited, but he runs the court well. Rebounds extremely well, and plays within himself. Because of these things he finds more than 30 minutes a night. Turiaf, again has limitations but can run the floor, plays smart and for the team. Randolph on the flip side, early in the season had absolutely no clue what was going on around him. Would chuck up any shot, and turn over prone. Once he calmed down, played more under control, he saw increased minutes. But its fair to say he was a detriment early season as opposed to helpful. And BWright? Well he goes in and out of the rotation, but even the biggest BWright fan has to admit, sometimes he gets very lost out there.. Thats when he gets pulled. Nellie doesnt mind if he doesnt score, but when he doesnt rotate defensive and takes up space offensively he is hurting the Warriors.

Nellie is just uninterested in slow down bigs. It is counterproductive to the entire style of play. If Nellie had say Odom and Gasol, i imagine both would play together for 36+ minutes a game.

by tafkasam on Aug 13, 2009 10:07 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs

this analysis, along with ro3ert0's are awesome, but...

they are huge understatements! troy murphy? zarko? harrington? foyle? the list goes on forever. how can we speculate about why these guys didn’t get minutes? they’re not good players. period. the last player we had that was reasonably efficient at the 4 was antawn, and he was gone by the time nellie came around.

all of this falls under the nellie-hating tent. a very large, very stupid tent, full of a-holes spewing cliches, unwilling to confront reality: nellie is one of the greatest coaches of all time, but he’s never had the talent to make his teams dominant. phil jsckson, by comparison, is one of the greatest coaches of all time, who lucked his way into the some of the greatest players anyone has ever coached, or lead through freaky, new age, quasi-buddhist visualization techniques, in jackson’s case…

don't watch court/cop show's. they're propaganda designed legitimize the criminal justice system, which is a factory that produces commodities for the privatized prison industry.

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Aug 15, 2009 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions

Cetainly, this year is going to be a big test of Nellie's philosophy

Last year, in part because of Randolph’s inexperience, in part because of Wright’s injury, Nellie didn’t really have the players to run a more traditional lineup.

This year he does. If he runs Mags at the 4 when he’s got Randolph and Wright, at this point it’s clearly a choice on his part, and represents a bias against bigs.

by Ronaldinho on Aug 13, 2009 11:26 AM PDT reply actions

agreed

a good point. i think this years line up will be more traditional 3 through 5.

ironically, it’s the 1 and 2 slots that will atypical. very strange for a nellie team to be without a strong point guard.

by joegiant on Aug 13, 2009 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions

C-Webb as a rookie

If i recall, Nellie played CWebb in the post as a proto-typical 4 (i know webb would stop and pop from 16 at times).

Webb’s complaint wasn’t how he was used – it was that Nellie yelled at him when he made mistakes. Horrors!

Big 4’s like that are a rarity – and Nellie has had LESS than his fair share of them – which is why he resorted to small ball.

Also – re the Knicks. I recall Nellie saying that the aging Ewing needed the be the 3rd best player on the team if the Knicks were to reach the finals again. It was probably a true statement.

by joegiant on Aug 13, 2009 11:29 AM PDT reply actions

“I recall Nellie saying that the aging Ewing needed the be the 3rd best player on the team if the Knicks were to reach the finals again.”

Nellie does have a habit of being honest and true about things like that. Makes me think of his statement that Monta needed to be a PG if he was going to be a really good player (or however he worded it). Nellie gets the game, he plays the hand he’s dealt, and he doesn’t waste his time developing guys that aren’t actually contributing by being on the floor while they’re “developing”. He knows what it takes to win, and he does what he can with what he has to achieve that.

by Missing Barry on Aug 13, 2009 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions

C-Webb

I thought Webber did complain about how he was being used because Nellie played him at the center spot at times and was critical of him when he made mistakes.

I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury

by Ro3ert0 on Aug 13, 2009 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions

Center

Yes…he played him at the 5 a lot, but he was still playing him in the post.

“was critical of him when he made mistakes.” that still makes my blood boil to this day.

how rich was it of CWebb to gripe about “not being treated like a man” when he made on court mistakes.

If anyone needed to be called out for making mistakes on the court, it was Mr. Timeout himself.

Oh what that team could have been had CWebb taken the criticism the Randolph seems to have. Here’s to hoping Randolph helps the W’s get to the next level.

by joegiant on Aug 13, 2009 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions