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I am awed by the obvious amount of work and analysis FLAxwless put into his An In-Depth Study: Don Nelson Doesn't Play Rookies post. In the same vein of myth-busting, a category of posts started earlier this summer IIRC, I’m challenging you to provide some evidence for a this Myth: the JRich trade was made to re-sign Monta and Andris.

Once and for all, I’m trying to put the JRich trade & consequences into context so as not to allow revisionism to change our perception of what happened, and more to the point not allow revisionism to impact our assessment of the FO currently. Convince me I’m wrong, and I’ll gladly get off it. But please hear me out first (in other words, at least read the post through!). Then bring the heat, with some links or evidence!

Star-divide

Several commentators here have ballyhooed the JRich trade as the "answer" to the "problem" of extending Monta and Andris once they became restricted free agents (RFAs), while some of us have simply called that a bunch of hooey. Why is this still important? Because several of us are skeptical that the FO will actually make use of the "flexibility" from the newly harvested crop of expiring contracts based upon the lack of the FO taking advantage of the "flexibility" of the TPE gained in the JRich trade. And several of us believe the FO only makes decisions based upon the bottom line rather than about winning. (In the spirit of full disclosure, I am part of the first but not the second group necessarily.)

Jason-richardson-golden-state-warriors-37333_1024_768_medium

via images.fanpop.com


I contend that the trade must be evaluated not only in its context but also what the consequences were both in the short and long term. We did not trade JRich for room to extend other players later, & I’ve seen no proof we were doing so. There is ample and ready proof that Mullin meant to make a trade, either that summer or before the trading deadline, to improve the club using the TPE we gained as a result of trading JRich. Several sources (a sample of which are provided below) illustrate this point; however I have yet to see a single source that tied the trade to re-signing the RFAs down the line (the long term) at a point in time even remotely close to the actual trade. In short, where is the evidence that the JRich trade was made with an eye toward re-signing Monta & Andris later on?

483590024_51f2462dfb_o_medium

via farm1.static.flickr.com

The Trade in context: we had just completed the celebrated We Believe season, made the playoffs and shocked the world by upsetting the #1 seed from the 8th seed spot. We lost some close games to UT and though disappointed, fans were pumped that we’d turned the corner and become relevant again in the NBA. Then we became players in the trade talks for KG.

429098284_d24b1915fe_o_medium

via farm1.static.flickr.com

Amid the draft, we sent JRich away for BWright and that netted us a $10m TPE, both of which were assets to use in a move to get KG. We couldn’t "trade" the TPE but in making a series of related deals with Minn we might have been able to land KG and Minn might have ended up with a TPE of their own in the end. Admittedly there are "mights" and "coulds" and it’s unfulfilled history because Boston was able to acquire KG.

Perhaps you’re asking yourself: So what? A: Because we still could have used the TPE the next year, and we could have done so without losing the ability to re-sign our RFAs. What the the question should be is: Why didn’t we? A: GSW FO didn’t want to spend the money. Players like Kurt Thomas and Chris Wilcox were on the market, yet we chose to try to slap new tread on an old tire (CWebb) and it didn't work. Signing a one-year player and making use of the TPE to get over the hump and make the playoffs would have cost us millions of dollars for a player we wouldn’t have necessarily been able to retain, or may not even have wanted to retain, when we subsequently had to choose to extend Monta and Andris. In short, we would have been spending money purely to make the playoffs that year, but it could have been done with no impact on extending our RFAs, we would not have been in the luxury tax, and furthermore, there were other moves that might have been made to jettison contracts in order to free cap space should we have chosen to do so.

Here’s two examples articulating that the FO made this deal to clear cap room to make trades with an eye toward the playoffs (for brevity's sake, several other examples are not included).

(1) Mullin repeatedly said he wouldn't trade Richardson, who has four years and about $50 million left on his contract. But the chance to land a big-name prospect at power forward - all while clearing salary-cap room and increasing prospects for future trades - proved irresistible. "It definitely frees us up and gives us flexibility," said Mullin, who acknowledged recent conversations with the Minnesota Timberwolves while they shopped forward Kevin Garnett. "I've always felt like (if we) have to go 16-4 or 9-1 (to finish the season) just to get into the playoffs, we need to improve - not just today, but going forward. This will allow us to do that." Mullin's stance should keep Golden State fans attuned to trade rumors throughout the summer, with Garnett clearly the top prize available.

(2) "It was a long, busy day," Warriors vice president Chris Mullin said. "But we made some big moves and it's really going to help improve the team." Another big move, however, could still be coming. Because the Warriors also netted a $10 million trade exception from the Bobcats, they now become a major player in this summer's trade market. The Warriors now have the ability to absorb contracts up to $10 million while offering a team instant financial relief. ... Not to be overlooked is the huge financial relief the Warriors receive by trading Richardson, who was owed $50 million over the next four years. Because Charlotte is under the salary cap, Golden State was able to make the deal without taking back the equivalent of Richardson's $10 million salary for this season. Instead, the Warriors netted a trade exception worth that amount they can now use in future trades for the next year without sending back any players. (Under league rules, salaries in any deal must come within 25 percent of each other unless a team has cap space.) They also dropped significantly below the luxury tax level, giving the Warriors added flexibility in the trade market.

Several articles mention trading for talent to augment our roster, while none of them link the JRich trade to extending RFAs in the future nor even discussing the possibility. In the following season, we failed to make use of the TPE. We could have landed a one year rental player such as Thomas to get us over the hump and make the playoffs, or we could have landed a longer-term big man and had to make other roster adjustments in the following year to eventually be able to re-sign our RFAs later, or choose not to.

Here’s my challenge: Prove that the dubs were even considering using the cap space from the JRich trade for the RFAs at the time it was made (or shortly thereafter), or prove that using the TPE on a one-year player would have hurt our chances at re-signing them. Otherwise, we should all stop contending the point and agree that the dubs let the TPE expire in spite of the opportunity we could have improved our chances to make the playoffs again by utilizing it and that doing so would not necessarily have precluded us from re-signing Monta and Andris.


(source: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/2007-06-29-3529350227_x.htm)

(source: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/marty_burns/08/31/pacific.reportcard/)

(source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/29/SPG6HQO9QI1.DTL)

Past is Prologue, except when it isn’t; hopefully this is such an exception.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Ok, you win

This is my theory and I will make it really simple. Cohan + Rowell = Bad ownership.

Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"

by dubzfan on Aug 4, 2009 11:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Prove that the dubs were even considering using the cap space from the JRich trade for the RFAs at the time it was made (or shortly thereafter), or prove that using the TPE on a one-year player would have hurt our chances at re-signing them. Otherwise, we should all stop contending the point and agree that the dubs let the TPE expire in spite of the opportunity we could have improved our chances to make the playoffs again by utilizing it and that doing so would not necessarily have precluded us from re-signing Monta and Andris.

(I know I’m gonna step in it here, but…) This is a bit like saying, “Prove that God exists; if you can’t, then we all have to agree that There Is No God.” We’ll never know if the FO was “considering” using the cap space or TPE, unless Mullin himself hops on the thread and streams an audio recording of a FO pow-wow proving one way or the other.

What we do know is this: the JRich trade gave the FO some flexibility in what they could do that summer, while at the same time clearing the starting SG spot for Monta. Clearly the FO didn’t make the most of the flexibility they worked for, we missed the playoffs, and The Great Time Out resumed its trek of the damned.

Would we have made the playoffs w/ JRich or Chris Wilcox? I would say “prove it”, but it just can’t be done.

by ffgolden on Aug 4, 2009 11:37 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

We all agree on what did/didn’t happen (playoffs, trade, not use tpe, no playoffs), I’m trying to stop the revisionism for the sole purpose of putting the current situation of expiring contracts into a larger context of how our FO operates.

Recognizing your point, we can’t prove that using the TPE would have resulted in playoffs, or even that keeping JRich would have … but there is also no evidence that FO intended to use that money on Monta/Andris regardless of how “clear is seems” to people in retrospect – in fact the evidence is entirely to the contrary … my contention is we need to stop giving the FO a “pass” on not using the JRich TPE on the grounds they wanted to extend the RFAs and we should acknowledge that claiming they did so is constructing a false rationale for the decision to trade JRich. This would also lend credibility to those who are skeptical of the current FO motivation to make use of the newly acquired expiring contracts.

The newly acquired expiriings represent the second major instance in which the FO could make a significant roster addition to push us into playoff contention: do they repeat earlier reluctance to spend and take advantage of the situation they themselves created by unloading Crawford and Marco, or do they squander the opportunity?

by hardcore on Aug 4, 2009 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

JRich is overrated. Seemed pretty clear to me that we were just trying to clear space for Monta to have more playing time.

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawkGSW on Aug 4, 2009 12:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Someone didn’t watch the We Believe team. What a Debbie Downer!

by Missing Barry on Aug 4, 2009 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It would have been for me!

We probably still could have picked up Randolph with the 15th pick over the 14th pick… then where would we be?

by Mr. Monday Night on Aug 4, 2009 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Warriors wouldn’t have the 15th pick. The dubs would have to pick after the weaker teams in the Eastern conference playoffs.

by tandy on Aug 4, 2009 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You challenged, and I accepted

And even though I saw one reference in Wiki as to J Rich being let go so we can resign Beans and Ellis, the article that it referenced did not even mention that. In fact going over the archives the only thing in print that I saw had Mullin saying…

A) We really, really wanted B Wright and
B) This will help us get Garnett or some other big name. (I’m paraphrasing of course).

What I think I remember and possibly other as well was the local media speculating as such and as you know… Garbage in, garbage out.

There's a party in my mind.
And I wish that I was there.

by qin on Aug 4, 2009 1:15 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Yup

Amid the draft, we sent JRich away for BWright and that netted us a $10m TPE, both of which were assets to use in a move to get KG.

On 5/7, the best part of waking is up LOLDGERS in my cup.

by GameSix on Aug 4, 2009 1:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m challenging you to provide some evidence for a this ?

 Us? Well we’re challenging you to go ask the front office for a straight answer? Go to the source don’t waste time guessing.

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 4, 2009 2:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

So you provide two quotes, one of which quotes “salary cap room” and the other “huge financial relief” as reasons for the trade, and you want us to provide FURTHER evidence that these trades were made with an eye towards extending the RFAs? It seems rather obvious.

If you’re a team that’s over the cap, and by trading a player you remain over the cap, what could you possibly have to gain by doing so? Hint: it rhymes with “muxury max.” And this is completely germane to the RFAs.

Thing C

by markdash on Aug 4, 2009 4:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

- could have provided, ten, twenty quotes and essentially they all same the same thing: Mullin wanted to make a trade (KG) or use the TPE to add a player to strengthen the team’s chances to make the playoffs.

Re-signing the RFAs was in NONE of the articles, quotes, or stories. It wasn’t even mentioned, was not even on the radar at the time of the JRich trade, nor shortly thereafter. It’s an after the fact justification for not using the TPE as far as I’m concerned and as far as the evidence shows.

We could have used the TPE on a player like Thomas and still not gotten hit by the luxury tax. We didn’t use the opportunity then, will the FO use the opportunity the expiring contracts provide now?

Admittedly it is difficult to move off a conventionally held belief, but when there is no evidence to back it up and all the evidence indicates otherwise it’s a dangerous practice to always follow the herd.

by hardcore on Aug 4, 2009 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It just seems like you have no more evidence that the trade wasn’t made to retain the RFAs than anyone has that it was made to keep them around. The fact that the cap room did go towards the Biedrins and Ellis extensions is really the only true evidence available to any of us.

Thing A

by sam23 on Aug 4, 2009 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

so do we completely discount all the evidence to the contrary? clearly Mullin and the FO told us they made the JRich trade and were looking to make a subsequent trade, and/or intended to use the TPE to add to the roster – we can at least agree that’s what they said, all the while there is ZERO evidence to suggest their intent was to trade JRich merely to resign the RFAs. Do we go with the evidence or the absence of evidence of what the JRich trade was intended to do?

by hardcore on Aug 4, 2009 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would you have preferred Mullin come out and say “We traded J-Rich so that we could give Monta Ellis and Biedrins $10m each after this season.” Not only is that really bad public relations, but it’s terrible negotiating. That’s why you probably won’t find much, if any, “evidence” about their plans for the cap space/TPE.

Thing C

by markdash on Aug 4, 2009 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

+1

Thing A

by sam23 on Aug 4, 2009 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

to your point, there’s been very little mention, if any, of actually using the flexibility of the newly acquired expiring contracts by the FO – maybe they learned from the past …

by hardcore on Aug 5, 2009 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

we can at least agree that’s what they said, all the while there is ZERO evidence to suggest their intent was to trade JRich merely to resign the RFAs

Isn’t the fact that they DID use the money the JRich trade freed up to re-sign Biedrins and Monta SOME evidence? Like markdash said below, you can’t really expect there to evidence of that in the form of Mullin or anyone else in the front office saying that because it would have been incredibly stupid for them to do so.

Thing A

by sam23 on Aug 4, 2009 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahhh, well, now we are getting to the heart of the matter aren’t we?!

you can’t really expect there to [be] evidence of that in the form of Mullin or anyone else in the front office saying that because it would have been incredibly stupid for them to do so.

let’s pause and then take your conclusion one step further: why would that have been stupid? because they’re being disingenuous? lying? or simply admitting that they’re not going to even try to put the best quality roster on the floor after jettisoning one of the most popular dubs in recent memory?

Yes, yes indeed that would not be very good PR. And that is precisely why so many fans are so skeptical now. I know this will not endear me to some, but I get why the ruckus over the Marco trade arose so vehemently – it confirms to some that the FO is not committed to keeping as much talent here as possible when the bottom line can be better served. That’s going to leave a disgusting taste in the mouths of fans thirsting for a playoff team. The only way that trade really is justifiable to fans who want a winning product is if George’s contract and/or the Toronto cash is used to improve the product on the floor. Otherwise the rabid reaction was more justified than some of the rest of us care to admit.

take the second step: if we could have used the TPE to improve the quality of team without sacrificing our ability to re-sign the RFAs (which is my contention and the stated intent of the FO at the time), and yet they allowed that to pass by, how much more incredibly stupid would that look?

by hardcore on Aug 4, 2009 9:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

As markdash has already said, it wouldn’t have just been a terrible PR move to announce that the move was made to sign Mont and Biedrins. (I’m actually not sure thats such a bad PR move anyway, JRich was popular but I doubt the majority of fans would’ve wanted to keep him instead of Monta who was coming off his M.I.P. season or our first legitimate center in more than a decade) Announcing the plan would have put them at a terrible disadvantage in negotiations with both those guys.

All of us hoped that the TPE would be used to acquire K.G. and when the JRich trade went down that seemed like a reasonable possibility. IIRC the F.O. said they wouldn’t mind paying some lux tax money if it meant putting a legitimate title contender on the floor. To me that means KG+Monta+Biedrins but not JRich+Monta+Biedrins or Monta+Biedrins+Thomas/Wilcox. Using the TPE wouldn’t have precluded us from re-signing Monta and Biedrins but it would have precluded us from re-signing them AND remaining under the lux tax. Basically a year after the trade the team would have had to pay double for whatever player they used the TPE on. Was any player available via trade, other than KG, really worth that? If it was my money I really doubt it. I don’t feel like you (or any of us responding to you) have brought anything new to this discussion that hasn’t been repeated a million times over the last couple years. What’s the point?

The only way that trade really is justifiable to fans who want a winning product is if George’s contract and/or the Toronto cash is used to improve the product on the floor. Otherwise the rabid reaction was more justified than some of the rest of us care to admit.

Would Marco really have improved our ability to put a winning product on the floor? Seriously? Honestly if we get desperate enough that George is playing a lot of minutes or Belinelli would have been playing a lot of minutes it probably means something has gone seriously wrong and we’re probably at a point where losing a few more games and improving our lottery odds would probably be beneficial.

Thing A

by sam23 on Aug 4, 2009 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with both of you guys that this would have been a poor negotiating position as well as a suicidal PR one, and I appreciate that you acknowledge that we could have re-signed the RFAs while using the TPE, so let me address the last spot we still disagree on:

Using the TPE wouldn’t have precluded us from re-signing Monta and Biedrins but it would have precluded us from re-signing them AND remaining under the lux tax. Basically a year after the trade the team would have had to pay double for whatever player they used the TPE on.

The second part of that sentence is where we still differ – my contention is there were a myriad of other options available such that this is not an absolute nor even more than a likely outcome with savy work by the FO. (1) We could have signed a one year player, like Thomas, using the TPE such that it would not have impacted re-signing the RFAs in any way nor the luxury tax in subsequent years. (2) Had we landed a player we preferred to keep with the TPE, then we trade some one else (such as Harrington or any other combination of players) to stay under the luxtax. (3) Trade Monta or Andris. I’m not advocating the third option mind you, but there were other possibilities.

As for why Marco’s trade chafes so many fans, while I agree that if we found ourselves in a position to rely on him for a major contribution this year we probably are looking at missing the playoffs, there is no one who can argue that George = Marco in ability. Hence we traded the better talent for the benefit of Toronto paying for George’s stay on the bench. If that is all we did that trade for then the only one who benefits is Cohan. I hope, I maintain some degree of optimism, that the Crawford & Marco transactions were to both maximize the nature of the returning players’ expiring contracts and save $ with the intent of using either/both on upgrading the roster.

Essentially, I’m trying to get at this: do the JRich trade and to a lesser degree this summer’s salary dumps represent an effort to make us more competitive or simply more profitable? I agree that non-contending teams delving into the luxtax is not reasonable to expect anywhere outside NY, but we didn’t necessarily have to go into the luxtax to use the TPE and still extend the RFAs.

In the original post, I’d asked for some proof that the JRich trade really could be linked to a strategic intent to resign our RFAs. Other than hindsight, it was not. And even if it was I’d disagree with its implementation and the lost opportunity at making use of every opportunity to return to the playoffs. In the bigger picture, I’m losing faith that the FO is really trying to build a winning team.

by hardcore on Aug 4, 2009 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wilcox?

You’ve got to be kidding me. He does have one of the best nicknames in the league (Weezy), but he’s not what any team needs. He dunks, and that’s about it. 4-5 dunks every 20 minutes, maybe 5-6 on the Warriors. But he looks like he’s allergic to anyone he’s trying to defend in the post or otherwise, has no shot to speak of, and only grabs a rebound every 4 minutes or so. Half the time, he just stands around looking useless on the court.

And Thomas is an old man. He is known mostly for his scoring, but it’s a Mark Blount type of scoring. It’s not fast paced action, like what we would have needed. He would have never been able to keep up with our team. And, at max he’s gonna be scoring 8 every 25 minutes. He’d get just as many rebounds as any other PF we had, and he doesn’t bring much to the table defensively, other than being a big body.

So please, don’t bring them into this. Thomas or Wilcox could not have gotten us into the playoffs under any circumstances. In fact, Id go as far as to say that they would have hurt our chances at the playoffs. Sure, Webber was just an old tire and didn’t help us out much, but I think he contributed just as much as those two would have.

Tony.psd = Da Man
http://www.blueblitz.net
Check Out My New Blog! (Don't Worry, The Warriors are Still #1)

by Zorgon on Aug 4, 2009 8:21 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

yeesh, I’d say welcome back, long time no see, good to hear from you but you, uh, just skewered the examples I’d thrown out there …

ok, so I’m not fixating on those two specific individuals but rather that 1) there were bigs on the market that would have helped (I do think either of them would have given us more than Wright did that season, and helped us win a couple more games, certainly more than CWebb did and we were soooo close, but that’s beside the point), and 2) that we could have used the TPE on and still been able to re-sign the RFAs despite it – we could have had both the playoffs and the RFAs had we chosen to spend the money and done so wisely.

and ultimately, this point is to support the wider perspective that fans have every right to be skeptical of this organization’s FO actually putting out what it takes to win, and in the present that means using the expiring contracts as trade assets to improve the quality of the team rather than not doing so …

and, ya – despite it all, good to hear from you again ;=]

by hardcore on Aug 4, 2009 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the welcome back

but the point I was trying to make was that even though the trade exception could have been used, the only guys available (without having to give up more) were guys like Thomas or Wilcox, and management felt that the expense that they brought was worse than the talent that they would bring to the team. Unfortunately, I agree with them, and I don’t think that either guy was better than Wright. Did Webber help? Not really. Would Thomas or Wilcox have made a difference? Maybe. But I don’t think that it would win us games, because simply put, our players were gassed down the stretch, and Don Nelson wouldn’t be tempted to put Kurt Thomas in with the game on the line, especially because he’s big. That same small ball lineup would have lost the key games like Denver, while Thomas/Wilcox watched on the bench. And as far as them providing more rest for the guys so they could have potentially had more energy, I don’t buy that either, because 5 extra minutes really won’t help you when you’ve taken a season of strain.

Still, even though we disagree, I’m glad this place is still around, and glad people are keeping the discussions going through the summer. Your avatar might even be better than mine!

Tony.psd = Da Man
http://www.blueblitz.net
Check Out My New Blog! (Don't Worry, The Warriors are Still #1)

by Zorgon on Aug 4, 2009 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

you’ve shamed me into actually putting stats into my post ;-p

Q: would guys like Thomas or Wilcox raise the level of talent on the 07-08 team? (we’ll get to whether they’d have been worth the expense part if necessary).

In 06-07 Harrington played over 40 min per in the stretch drive to the playoffs and put up 17 ppg & 6.4 rpg. but in 07-08, the year in question, his min dropped to 27 per game, production dropped correspondingly to 13.6 ppg & 5.4 rpg. Most of the rest of the minutes at PF were picked up by Barnes and MP. I don’t have their position splits but here were their 07-08 numbers overall:

Barnes: 6.7 ppg & 4.5 rpg in just <20 min per game
MP: 7.2 ppg & 3.7 rpg also in just <20 min per game

Wilcox 07-08: 13.4 ppg & 7.0 rpg in 28 min per game

It was a bit surprising to me that his scoring and minutes were nearly identical to Harrington’s, and he obviously rebounded better. Hypothetically, had we picked up Wilcox and replaced the minutes at PF played by Barnes and MP I do think we do improve – is it enough to make the playoffs? We only barely missed the playoffs, so I’m going to say ya we should be able to make that argument. Am also considering that Wilcox’s speed & athleticism would have fit into the style we’re playing.

Thomas’ potential impact is a bit trickier to pin down for two reasons: he was traded mid-season and his role changed considerably as a result, and the legit question of whether he could’ve fit into our style.

w/SEA: 7.5 ppg & 8.7 rpg in 25 min per game
w/SAS: 4.5 ppg & 4.9 rpg in 19 min per game

We should use the SAS numbers because of the min played and the his role then was more likely to match what he’d have provided us. In that light, he doesn’t really give enough more rebounding than Barnes/MP did to make a significant difference alone. However, that doesn’t factor in his defensive contribution completely, nor the hypothetical impact of his PT keeping Andris fresher. Still, all that is pretty thin admittedly and to argue beyond that would take me out onto the thin ice of intangibles like veteran leadership and playoff experience …

One last point: keep in mind Harrington was the defacto backup C for much of that year, so any increase in our depth on the front line could have been disproportionately important to the dubs’ chances.

Conclusion: if we could have found a player like Wilcox with a one-year contract like Thomas, it would have worked to use the TPE. Did such a player exist and if so, was he available? Honestly I don’t know. If we could have traded for a Wilcox and subsequently moved a player or two in order to re-sign the RFAs, that scenario fits my original premise. But even I have to admit that the likelihood is smaller than I realized when I clambered down this rabbit hole and enticed some of you to follow.

Now the hardest part: If a player like that didn’t exist, there’s not much to hammer the FO on as far as not using the TPE. And though am a bit chagrined to have publicly put all of us through that, I’d hold that while the JRich trade wasn’t intended for re-signing the RFAs as that decision was more than a year away, there may not have been a better use for the resources at hand as the season played out.

by hardcore on Aug 5, 2009 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Funny how one rebound every 4 minutes sounds worse than 9 rebounds per 36 (over the last 4 years he’s been a little over 9/36)…

by Missing Barry on Aug 5, 2009 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

just

just read basketbawful.com and chill

by giorgio000 on Aug 5, 2009 12:35 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If Kurt Thomas is the player you think is going to make the difference ...

You have bigger problems.

One of the things to consider is that the Warriors – despite Baron’s declining commitment, despite some starters getting run into the ground, were a better regular-season team after this trade than they were before.

Now, I don’t think that BW’s 9 minutes per game were the result of that improvement, but rather, it suggests that – as much as we fans, self included, liked JRich – that the team was fully capable of replacing his contributions. (I suspect Monta’s improvement was the primary factor, but ultimately JRich’s minutes were taken by a combination of Monta, Buike, and Jackson, the net of which was better productivity out of those mintues).

In other words, the JRich for BW trade makes sense, on its own, simply in terms of trading a redundant part for a piece which may, ultimately, develop into valuable player.

At the time, I think most people looked at the trade as trading some current wins for some future ones – with the trade exemption being a little vigorish to make up for what we lost in the short term. But in retrospect there really was no short-term cost to the trade: we got better! I know Cohan’s finances aren’t something most of us care about, but a trade which doesn’t make the team worse, while at the same time builds for the future and saves the team some money, that’s win-win, isn’t it?

And unless we used the trade exemption for a player with an expiring deal (and those guys are hard to get your hands on, because they have their own value) you’re making a long-term salary commitment which may hurt your ability going forward to make the right decisions.

by Ronaldinho on Aug 5, 2009 12:15 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

see my chagrined 2nd reply to Zorgon above, in short, you’re right about Thomas, the next year’s regular seasn record, the likelihood of getting precisely the player we needed with an expiring … just curious, what is vigorish?

by hardcore on Aug 5, 2009 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fast Foward

So as interesting as this speculative debate is, where will we be after we trade Wright for more Devone George Do-Do and still have nothing to show for the TPE? You know its going to happen and Nelson will probably dump Andris as well just to show Mullin who the real boss is.

We Believe We Were Deceived

by commish on Aug 5, 2009 3:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

why couldn't we use

TPE to aquire Gasol. ITs the same as giving up expiring contracts.
We should have done that!!!

Marco Belinelli's Biggest Fan

by montadaboss on Aug 5, 2009 9:43 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It’s not the same. A TPE can’t be used to acquire any player with a salary larger than the TPE.

Thing C

by markdash on Aug 5, 2009 11:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Because...

Gasol’s salary wasn’t under 10 mil. You can’t use it combined with another TPE nor can you use it off set a portion of someone salary in a trade. It need to cover the player’s whole salary, period. Plus, we didn’t have a young player to trade to Memphis which they got in Crienton.

A Sonics fan without a team... but after 6 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.

by mcwalter44 on Aug 7, 2009 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

why couldn't we?

 Just keep Jason and look at some tapes of the utah series and figure out we only needed a big man to beat them then go find one?
 You don’t build winning teams by re-setting everything the season after a winning season, you build on what was working and fix the rest. If nellie wanted to win as bad as he wants to showcase smallball he’d have figured this out and got us further next year like most winning coaches do, it’s a pretty simple step by step process.

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 5, 2009 10:03 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Yeah but you also don’t build winning franchises by planning one year at a time. Getting JRich’s salary off the books was a good long-term move for the Warriors, especially getting a young big with upside in return (who doesn’t really cost anything)…

by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

(who doesn’t really cost anything)…

except our chance to go further in the playoffs in 08?
  Winning teams are not long term investments, you can’t retire off them, one more year and a little further up the experienced ladder is better than climbing down and heading off to the jackson miss. k-mart for a new younger untested ladder. If we failed to improve in 08 then we could have tried something else, but we failed to believe in “we believe” which is quite sad and pretty much brands us as deserving to lose forever. One doesn’t have to plan a dynasty, sports history is full of one season wonders that wouldn’t have happened if they were worrying about their two season down the road contract negotiations .

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 6, 2009 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just can’t blame them for what they did. JRich and his contract were burdensome. They got close to pulling off a KG deal after doing this, that was a chance worth taking. Our team was still very good and won 48 games, a bunch more than the previous season, who could guess we’d be the best team in history not to make the playoffs? Would JRich have won us another game? Maybe, but it’s not a given. Hypothetically, if we made the playoffs in either situation, would a team with JRich have gone farther? Doubtful. The bottom line was we didn’t have a championship caliber team, we made a move for the future that I think was a smart move, while maintaining a very good team and opening up PT for Ellis to have a real breakout season.

I love JRich, but he’s never recovered into the player he was before his 2006-2007 injury. I was sad to see him go, but at the same time, realized we weren’t losing a lot and we were getting a long-term bad contact off our books, while getting back big time potential.

by Missing Barry on Aug 6, 2009 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's easy to think about the team's pockets as being infinitely deep ...

… but in practice it doesn’t work that way.

At a certain point, the finances look bad to Cohan and he has to cut back. Spending more $10m this year moves him closer to that “I’ve got to pull back on the expenses” point, and may mean, cap aside, that he’s less likely to spend $3m the next year, or $5m the year after that.

Obviously, the best way for Cohan to improve revenues is to win more, and it’s nice to think that if they had spent that $10m they would have won enough to pay for it. But that’s actually pretty unlikely, if you look at (say) Berri’s costs/win analysis.

“Spend the money, it doesn’t hurt us in the long run,” is simply not true. Cohan has a cushion. The thinner that cushion gets, the tigher he’ll be. If he’s expecting lean years, the smart move is often to cut back now … so you don’t have to cut to the bone later.

Maybe he was just being cheap. But maybe there wasn’t a piece available who was worth digging into that cushion for.

by Ronaldinho on Aug 6, 2009 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

the We Believe team

That squad was practically unsustainable in the long term. Just look at how much they’re all making right now:

Baron $12mil
Ellis $11mil
JRich $13mil
Jackson $8mil
Biedrins $9mil
Harrington $10mil
Pietrus $5mil
Barnes $2mil

That’s already $69mil tied up in only 8 players. The luxury tax line is at $69.9mil. We’d be in deep financial doo doo with a very flawed roster if we had just kept it together like this.

"We Deserve"

by YaHeard on Aug 5, 2009 10:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree with the subject headline

We’re tired of hearing about it already….this was two years ago let it go

by LarryBudd on Aug 6, 2009 9:03 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Given how long the Owens/Richmond deal was and how people still bring that up (usually ignoring that the Warriors improved rather dramatically after the trade), I doubt that this one will die any time soon.

Hell, there’s still a sizable Warriors contingent that won’t give up the JB Carroll/Parish and a pick trade.

by jae on Aug 6, 2009 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ignoring that the Warriors improved rather dramatically after the trade

  Hi jae, They improved after the Jrich trade too but that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t have improved even more if the trade was not made? We now have the luxury of looking at it from afar after the consequences are known but at the time based on finally making the playoffs and producing a decent showing it was a dumb move both for strategic and publicity purposes. For example, the 70’s A’s didn’t get rid of their best players after getting into the playoffs, they came back and won three world series. They shoulda given us one more year of “we believe” to see how far it coulda gone.

Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky

by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 6, 2009 2:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It was a gamble

we dumped a salary of a player we didn’t “need”. Received a prospect who really should have done better

by tafkasam on Aug 7, 2009 10:58 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Welcome to GSOM fans.

Same fans who call KNBR and after 16 ABs are ready to CAN Ryan Garko. lol

We live in a McDonalds society…… if its not instant gratification, it must be poo!

by sjboy on Aug 11, 2009 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

So much posting for?

This is why fans are never taken seriously. Its obvious what happened

  1. - Monta Ellis: younger, better, cheaper.
  2. - He is not THAT good. No D, no reliable jumper, not a closer, not a team leader.
  3. - Brandan Wright was a HOT big man commodity at the time.

There. Done. You can believe that or go read/post another 50000 posts. Either way, the ‘smart’ people know this.

by sjboy on Aug 11, 2009 1:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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