Around the Association: 2009-2010 Orlando Magic - Are they Vinsane? You be the judge.
I have to be honest, for a team that made it's way to the NBA Finals last year, the Magic have made some major moves beyond expectations. I'm not saying that the direction that Orlando is heading is bad, but it's clear that they are making their move for the ring now - potentially leveraging longevity for a shot at it all. At the end of the day, it comes down to the two options in the philosophy of building a professional sports team. Design a team that can win a championship or design a team that can win a string of championships?

"Okay Vince, if I win this thumb war, you come over and play for us next year."
While the Magic seemed to have taken advantage of the feeding frenzy of next years' Uber draft they have indeed acquired an aging Vince Carter in exchange some potential future producers (Alston and Courtney Lee most notably). Now, this isn't to say that Vince doesn't have anything left in the tank; he did just come off of a season of 20.8 points per game and 4.7 dimes per game.
Let's just say that the clock is officially ticking for the Magic to grab that trophy.
JUMP!
Vince Carter. Dwight Howard. Jameer Nelson. Rashard Lewis. Those are four extremely potent bullets in a now fully loaded gun. Even for a team that made the NBA finals last year, it's tough to argue that they didn't get better with the addition of Vinsinity.
The only issue I see is the loss of the depth of their bench. In order to get Carter over, Orlando dealt away Rafer Alston, a solid backup to Jameer Nelson. (To their credit on this hole, they did sign Jason Williams away from the Heat) Additionally, they moved away Courtney Lee, their rookie guard who showed the league that he can play with the elite in last years' postseason. Add to all of this the fact that Orlando did not succeed in keeping Hedo Turkoglu, a key cog in their success in their 2008-2009 season and one is left wondering if having Carter is truly greater than the potential holes they have created in their already proven roster.
Can Orlando get it done this year?! Despite some of these issues, I don't see why not. This will definitely be a team to watch.
2008-2009 Rewind
- Finished Season 59 and 23
- Beat Cleveland to win the Eastern Conference Championship
- Lost to the Lakers in the NBA Finals
Offseason Moves
- Traded Rafer Alston, Tony Battie and Courtney Lee to the New Jersey Nets for Vince Carter and Ryan Anderson
- Offered a 4 year deal to Brandon Bass (from the Dallas Mavericks)
- Signed ex Warrior (who then went to the Suns) Matt Barnes
- Signed Jason Williams from the Miami Heat
Recent Ex Warriors on current roster:
- Adonal Foyle
- Matt Barnes
- Mickael Pietrus
0 recs |
55 comments
|
Comments
I think you pretty much nailed it. A lineup of Nelson-Pietrus-Carter-Lewis-Howard with Barnes-Bass-Gortat-JWll off the bench looks pretty formidable. I might even say they are the favorites in the east. It would be fun to see what those guys could do in the playoffs if all are healthy and playing well.
However the Carter trade is a gamble. Carter, Pietrus, and Nelson all have had injuries and they could be missing Courney Lee (and Alston) pretty quick if those guys get hurt again. New Jersey got a pretty solid player in Lee- with Harris and Lopez they could be a little better than some people think.
Boston might have a pretty short window too with the age of their stars- other than Rondo. Cleveland might lose Lebron. Even with Carter’s age I think Orlando will be pretty dominant in the east for a while unless Lebron and some other free agent create some freak superteam in 10-11.
by gsfool on Sep 21, 2009 11:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Respectfully disagree
From a Magic fan, I want to thank you for taking the time to write this up. That being said, i must respectfully disagree on a few points. The first is that the Magic do not have a deep bench. We essentially traded away or lost Hedo, Lee, Rafer, Tony Battie, Tyrone Lue, and Jeremy Richardson. We brought in or retained Vince Carter, Ryan Anderson, Brandon Bass, Matt Barnes, Marcin Gortat, Jason Williams, Adonal Foyle. I mean a starting line up of JWill, Carter, Barnes, Bass, and Gortat could be a starting lineup.
The only other minor debate I have (remember I said minor) is that the Magic have traded winning in the future for winning now. I think letting Hedo go was smart, they committed less money and time to Carter in his last few quality years, as opposed to spending more money and 5 years on Hedo as he goes into the twilight of his career. The Magic’s core 3 Lewis, Howard, and Nelson are signed through the next 3-4 years. They also have great young pieces in Bass, Gortat, and Anderson. I will agree that the moves the Magic made is to compete for a title now. But I also believe that the Magic’s moves were made to provide future flexibility.
Once again great write up and good luck this year!
by McDee on Sep 21, 2009 2:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Great Points
My thoughts are definitely written from the outside looking in on this team. The good news is, no matter how you dice it up, (i.e. whether the Carter move made them stronger or not) – this team is definitely going to be one of the league’s elite teams this year.
You’re in for a good season! Good luck this year.
by Hash on Sep 21, 2009 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post from the West Coast...
But just to bring something to your attention…You said that we traded away TWO “young players” in Alston & Lee, but Rafer Alston is the same age as Vince Carter, so he’s not young by any stretch of the imagination. He also was never intended to be Jameer’s backup. He was a consolation prize to losing Jameer for the season. Otis knew they wouldn’t be able to co-exist, so he went and got what we needed but hadn’t had since T-Mac, and that’s a go-to guy. By the way, if you still have any doubt that VC is still insane, then check out YouTube for highlights from the recent UNC Alumni Game. I was thoroughly shocked to see him get up like he was 23 and not 32!! We are INDEED in for a good season!!
by pianolady on Sep 21, 2009 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it just me..
Or are the Magic what, we (Nellie) wants us to be. Bunch of jump shooters who like to run with 1 HUGE post presence who can run the court.
by tafkasam on Sep 21, 2009 2:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Vince Carter. Dwight Howard. Jameer Nelson. Rashard Lewis. Those are four extremely potent bullets in a now fully loaded gun.
I dunno, I see that more as one extremely potent bullet (or maybe cannonball) and a bit of gunpowder. For the sake of argument: would anyone here trade the Warriors’ roster beyond Biedrins for the Magic’s roster beyond Howard? I don’t think I would.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 21, 2009 2:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No offense, but you obviously don't know much about our team
Or you don’t value winning. Having a bunch of individual, one-on-one talents doesn’t equal to having a good team. The Magic beat the Cavs b/c we are a better TEAM, so it didn’t matter that the best PLAYER on the court was a Cav. Basketball is a team sport, and I would take Gortat over Biedrins all day. But you’ll have plenty of time to re-think that statement in June when your team is fishing and we’re playing in the Finals. Good Luck this year!!
by pianolady on Sep 21, 2009 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha.
Basketball is a team sport, and I would take Gortat over Biedrins all day.
Er… care to explain how this follows? They’re both comparably solid players, both excellent rebounders, both very efficient from the floor — with the notable difference that Biedrins dished out assists to his TEAMmates last season at better than three times the rate Gortat did.
Yeah … I know enough about “your” team and enough about winning to see that having a Top 3 NBA superstar (and league’s Best Big Man, by a wide margin) makes a lot of tired clichés about “TEAM” and “chemistry” sound almost half-plausible. You wanna flip us Howard for Biedrins so we can test out my theory that the Warriors’ supporting cast is better, or did you just come here to beat your chest?
I must say, I always think it takes a special kind of coolness to root for a good sports team and go talk trash on the fanboard of a crappy sports team. No offense, of course. ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 21, 2009 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biedrins >>>>>>>>>> Gortat
Morrow, Maggs, Curry, Ronny, Wright and Azebuike > Jwill, Barnes, Bass, Anderson,
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "Your a rookie"
by dubzfan on Sep 21, 2009 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morrow, Maggs, Curry, Ronny, Wright and Azebuike > Jwill, Barnes, Bass, Anderson,
true but
Ellis, Morrow, Maggs, Randolph, Curry, Ronny, Wright and Azibuike<<< <<<Carter, Nelson, Lewis, Bass, Anderson, Barnes, Pietrus, Gortat
I would swap teams, minus Biedrins and Howard, in a second.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Sep 22, 2009 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks Thing B, for actually taking the time to read what I said and doing the calculus accordingly.
In the real world, I would not even consider making that swap, as it locks us into a max deal with a good-but-nowhere-near-franchise player in ‘Shard. We might not be terrible after the trade, but we’d be painfully mediocre, with close to zero chance of making a leap to serious contender. No one on their roster beyond DHo has much realistic upside beyond what they are now. We’d essentially be stuck in hoops purgatory for the forseeable future.
Of course, this line of thinking isn’t really in keeping with the terms I set out which was more “which team beyond the two starting Centers is better, right now?” And … I’d still take the Warriors’ bunch. Similar production, but a ton more upside. The X-factor is of course Anthony Randolph. If he takes anything close the leap next season that a lot of people here are expecting, there’s no one on the Magic roster (beyond DHo) remotely in his category.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 22, 2009 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"which team beyond the two starting Centers is better, right now?"
I agree its not an eay answer, I still take their lewis and his bad contract and the rest of thier contracts instead of being stuck with the mediocrity that is our roster.
The X-factor is of course Anthony Randolph
Right off the bat, I want to say I love Anthony Randolph…but…but…BUT he hasnt done anything yet, seriously would you take his ‘potential’ over Howard. We’ll see what happens with Randolph this season. More coming in a bit Sleepy : )
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Sep 23, 2009 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
would you take his ‘potential’ overHowardLewis
…is the question. He’s already stated Howard is a beast; I would say arguably the best player currently in the NBA to build a franchise around because of the position he plays. (Obviously LeBron, Wade, and Kobe enter in to that discussion.)
Judging by “All-Stars on the roster” Orlando’s starting 5 minus Howard are stronger than the Warriors starting 5 minus Biedrins. Judging individually, right now, no contracts (or trade speculation):
- Nelson > Ellis (at PG, considering moped, maybe.)
- Carter > Jackson (Carter better shooter/scorer, less turnover prone, unpredictable, but maybe not as good defensively.)
- Pietris < Azubuke (Azu is more reliable with the ball)
- Lewis > Randolph (unless Randolph has the season we all hope for. Lewis doesn’t play as big, but he can hit the 3, especially when his team needs him to.)
On the other hand:
- Monta Ellis has the potential to be unstoppable. If his game develops like it has in the past people are going to really like him at PG.
- Azubuke has more room left to improve than Pietrus.
- Randolph has no ceiling that any of us have seen yet.
- Morrow and Curry both represent possible upgrades in the starting line up, depending on how various player progress.
- I like our bench (Turiaf, Maggette, Morrow, Wright, Curry, CJ) better than theirs (Bass, Anderson, Gortat, Barnes, JWill) although I like the size and toughness the Magic can bring in.
There are many good reasons why the Magic were in the Finals this year. There are a few more good reasons many think they could be back this year. Not all of those reasons are named Dwight. On the other hand, I expect the Warriors to surprise a lot of naysayers this year.
by toddaverth on Sep 23, 2009 1:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
would you take his ‘potential’ overHowardLewis
Thank you.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 1:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
… and well laid out overall. Thanks.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 2:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously would you take his ‘potential’ over Howard.
Er, no.
And right after I praised your powers of reading comprehension. Ah well.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 1:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
did you just come here to beat your chest?
Do ladies do that?
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 21, 2009 10:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
you’ll have plenty of time to re-think that statement in June when your team is fishing and we’re playing in the Finals. Good Luck this year!!
Evidently… ;-P
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 22, 2009 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most people don’t seem to realize how much better a player Vince Carter is than Heido Turkoglu. Courtney Lee is a very nice role player but Carter is still a very very good player and if you are on the brink of winning a championship, you go for it. Now is not the time to look to the future for the Magic.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Sep 22, 2009 7:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Most people don’t seem to realize how much better a player Vince Carter is than Heido Turkoglu.
[raises hand].
They’re more or less the same player except that Hedo is more or less in his prime (31 in March 2010) rather than past it (33 in January). Turkey’s also three inches taller, more versatile (can play 2,3, or 4), and helped his team a bit more when he played last season (+7.5 to +1.9 plus minus). Anecdotally, he also seems to enjoy the spotlight and never seems afraid to handle the rock or take the big shot with the pressure on. (A bit like our Cap’n Jack in this respect, only more talented).
Curious why you would think the Turk/Vince swap is anything but a push at best for the Magic.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 22, 2009 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some more insight
“They’re more or less the same player except that Hedo is more or less in his prime (31 in March 2010) rather than past it (33 in January).”
Did you honestly just compare Vince Carter and Hedo Turkoglu – only 2 years apart – and call them equal. Turkoglu is taller, but he is also a forward, Carter is a guard. There is a big difference. Also keep in mind you can’t compare efficiency number between different players from different teams. New Jersey was pretty terrible overall last year, whereas the Magic made it the finals and had extremely highly rated team offense/defense. Hedo had the luxury of playing on a great team with a spectacular individual defender in Dwight Howard who will pretty much keep them in the thick of things regardless of how Hedo plays. Vince Carter stands a great chance to do better than Hedo Turkoglu with the current Magic team.
You mention how Turk “seems to enjoy the spotlight and never seems afraid to handle the rock or take the big shot with the pressure on. (A bit like our Cap’n Jack in this respect, only more talented).” Doesn’t this also describe Vince Carter a bit too? (noted understatement)
From a Magic fan’s perspective, Hedo was a great player, and we really appreciate all the hard work he put into making our team better. However, part of liking the spotlight also caused to take a lot of bad shots, and I don’t believe he’s going to maintain his current level of effectiveness though his Toronto contract. As someone already pointed out, a lot of Magic fans were glad to see the team make the smart move and trade him for IMHO a better player now, and more cap flexibility in the future.
Otis Smith’s main goal this offseason seems to have been increasing flexibility, and I think a lot of people are underestimating the Magic’s bench. Gortat is an excellent center, and bass, barnes, johnson, williams, reddick are going to turn some heads.
All this being said, Orlando wasn’t always this good, and I’ve been a die hard fan for almost 20 years. I’ll be the first to admit that Goldenstate has a ton of potential. For now I would still take the Magic team no question, but the Warriors are looking stacked for the future. Good luck!
by BlueSkyOneCloud on Sep 22, 2009 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did you honestly just compare Vince Carter and Hedo Turkoglu – only 2 years apart – and call them equal.
I did. I actually think Turkey might be a little better. And those two years are pretty key when you’re talking age 31 v. 33. Carter is getting mighty close to the age where players start to decline pretty dramatically.
Turkoglu is taller, but he is also a forward, Carter is a guard. There is a big difference.
Yet somehow Turkoglu dished out more assists per minute than VC — 4.8 to 4.6 per 36. In fairness, Carter was better at taking care of the ball (2.0 to 2.8 turnovers). Rebounding and true shooting % were roughly equal. In all: regardless of their nominal positions, it’s tough to fit more than a piece of paper between them statistically.
Also keep in mind you can’t compare efficiency number between different players from different teams.
I didn’t compare efficiency; I compared plus-minus. Not the be-all and end-all of stats, but not a useless piece of data either.
New Jersey was pretty terrible overall last year, whereas the Magic made it the finals and had extremely highly rated team offense/defense. Hedo had the luxury of playing on a great team with a spectacular individual defender in Dwight Howard who will pretty much keep them in the thick of things regardless of how Hedo plays.
Agreed with all this.
Vince Carter stands a great chance to do better than Hedo Turkoglu with the current Magic team.
This is pretty much pure conjecture, likely infused with a dose of homerism. What in VC’s recent numbers indicates that at age 33 he’s going to become something more than he is?
You mention how Turk "seems to enjoy the spotlight and never seems afraid to handle the rock or take the big shot with the pressure on. (A bit like our Cap’n Jack in this respect, only more talented)." Doesn’t this also describe Vince Carter a bit too? (noted understatement)
Yeah, pretty much. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. Both players seem to thrive in the spotlight.
part of liking the spotlight also caused to take a lot of bad shots,
True, though I imagine Nets fans arev saying the exact same about VC. Again, their TS% last season were nearly identical: 54.5% for Vince, 54.1% for Hedo.
Otis Smith’s main goal this offseason seems to have been increasing flexibility, and I think a lot of people are underestimating the Magic’s bench. Gortat is an excellent center, and bass, barnes, johnson, williams, reddick are going to turn some heads.
Fans tend to like their team’s bench. I would rather have Gortat than Turiaf at backup C, mostly because of his freakish rebounding. On the other hand, I’ll take our Brandan over your Brandon; ACC sharpshooter Morrow over ACC sharpshooter Reddick; hunky Azubuike over hunky Barnes; and spunky Curry/CJ over spunky Johnson/Williams.
Overall … I just don’t see how the Magic improved themselves significantly from last season. If I were a Magic fan, the main hope for improvement I would have would involve Howard ‘s game taking another leap forward. Given what a hardworking and freakishly talented dude he is, I wouldn’t put that past him.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 22, 2009 2:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I actually think Turkey might be a little better.
Haha, You ever watch Vince play? He’s insane while TurkoGlue is meh. Stop sniffin those stats, they can blind you to the essense of the game :>)
I’d say Carter will be a big improvement to the Magicians just on chemistry alone.
and who cares how our bench compares when they got frickin Dwight Howard? I’d trade the whole warriors team for DHo and a clean slate.
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 22, 2009 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s insane while TurkoGlue is meh.
Well, that settles it then? As always, your wild personal preferences, backed up by nothing, rule the day. :>)
I’d say Carter will be a big improvement to the Magicians just on chemistry alone.
And I’d say you’re not a chemist.
and who cares how our bench compares when they got frickin Dwight Howard? I’d trade the whole warriors team for DHo and a clean slate.
Er yeah, so would I. If you had been paying attention, you might have noticed that that’s kinda the point: when people talk about the Magic’s excellent “TEAM” and “chemistry” and “loaded gun” what they really mean is one franchise player who puts them in the championship conversation … and a buncha guys who aren’t terribly different from our buncha guys (or Oklahoma’s, or Minnesota’s, or Memphis’s, etc.)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d say you’re not a chemist.
Dude! I took college chemistry( twice in fact) :>)
“Well, that settles it then? As always, your wild personal preferences, backed up by nothing, rule the day. :>)”
Just accept the inevitable, Sleepy. It’s gonna happen, this is a game of observation.
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 23, 2009 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well OK, Skep, I admit I’m curious. Though I can often appreciate your appreciation of hoops “chemistry,” I find your application of the concept in this instance especially odd, given that we’re talking about an NBA finals team that had replaced a major component of their winning chemistry with a big name scoring star.
But I’m sure you’ll have a persuasive scientific explanation for this layman, likely involving copious quantities O2, CO2, and BS2… ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure you’ll have a persuasive scientific explanation for this layman
Haha, Just look at that lead photo, two guys oozing chemistry. The big Ho is gonna love having a guy like Carter to mesh with and Vinsanity is gonna love getting onto a team that has a great chance of winning a ring.
It’s a bubbling beaker of good karma. Of course I dropped out of chemistry once to avoid a fail and passed it the second time with a C even though I had all the tests so we might wanna wear protective gear when observing this interaction :>)
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 23, 2009 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, anybody, outside of maybe a big galoot like Shaq, could mesh well with the “Big Ho.” I think this is why they call him “The Big Ho.” He does all the dirty work inside, and releases a ton of stress and tension in everyone who works with him. Plus, he’s very sexy-looking in a tank top and shorts.
And I’m sure Vinsanity will be thrilled to leave New Jersey and ride the gravy train of one of the four NBA teams with a legit championship shot.
That does nothing to explain why Carter is better fit “chemically” than Turkoglu, who has already demonstrated that he meshes well enough to help take the team all the way to the NBA finals (as sidekick #2A or 2B, depending on your opinion of ’Shard).
If I may be so bold, I put it to you that your prediction of oozy, bubbly chemistry with the subtraction of Turkoglu and addition of Carter is based on the following scientific studies:
#1, wherein you determined that you like the pretty picture of Carter and Howard smiling together.
#2, wherein you determined that you always prefer big-name players ESPN hypes up as “stars” (ideally, ones with cool nicknames and great dunking skills that translate well to short soundbites with headachy background music to funny-looking Europeans.
I mean, who am I to refute that kind of science? ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*
Argh, accidentally deleted parenthesis between “music” and “to funny-looking,” thereby botching my punchline.
Takeaway point being: Dwight Howard is hot.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dwight Howard is hot.
For my money the hottest Ho in town.
# 1 the photo is evidence
#2 Yeah, I’m a fan of the qualities it takes to earn the hype, this is entertainment after all.
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 23, 2009 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For my money the hottest Ho in town.
Hotter at least than Moe Ho, Curly Ho, and Shemp Ho (aka Hideki Matsui…)

There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think Turkey might be a little better.
Not on any statiscal mesure over their career OR the last season. If you want to talk about intangiables and what not, that fine, i know I cant win a faith based argument. But Vince was great last year and was statiscally way better than Heido.
Yet somehow Turkoglu dished out more assists per minute than VC — 4.8 to 4.6 per 36
Also, Orlando’s starting point guard is an All Star. Why get a hybrid player, when you can get a complimentary player. We know what Carter can do. Super Athletic and can score in crazy bunches. If Nelson gets injured again, they are fucked already…..
I didn’t compare efficiency; I compared plus-minus.
Across teams, common on Sleepy, you know better than that. You know that +/- across teams doesnt mean much.
What in VC’s recent numbers indicates that at age 33 he’s going to become something more than he is?
Fair enough but have you looked at VC’s recent numbers? He was the best player on the team last year including anybody named Harris. If Carter can just keep on a somewhat similar pace as he did last year, the Magic are going to be scary.
I would rather have Gortat than Turiaf at backup C, mostly because of his freakish rebounding. On the other hand, I’ll take our Brandan over your Brandon; ACC sharpshooter Morrow over ACC sharpshooter Reddick; hunky Azubuike over hunky Barnes; and spunky Curry/CJ over spunky Johnson/Williams.
Ok you prefer GSW bench players over Orlando’s. Not me. Brandan Wright > Brandon Bass, but Bass knows whats up. Grab a few rebounds and play hard for the 10 to 15 minutes he is in. Role players who know whats up is son much better that the mess the Warriors got going on.
I just don’t see how the Magic improved themselves significantly from last season.
Carter>Turkolglu
You are smart enought to know that.
If I were a Magic fan, the main hope for improvement I would have would involve Howard ‘s game taking another leap forward.
Why Howard is already top 5 players in the league and is good enoug to lead a team to the promise land, if they got a ffew other stars.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Sep 23, 2009 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not on any statiscal [sic] mesure [sic]
Well except for rebounds, assists, and plus-minus…
over their career OR the last season.
In the case of a soon-to-be 33 year-old like Carter, I think it’s fair to look at last season rather than his whole career as an indicator of what to expect going forward.
Outside of that one sentence you cited, I think I made my position pretty clear: they’re more or less equal as players. The burden remains on you to show “how much better a player Vince Carter is than Heido [sic] Turkoglu.” How much? A half a game? A negative game? 1.3 games? 1.9?
Also, Orlando’s starting point guard is an All Star. Why get a hybrid player, when you can get a complimentary [sic] player. We know what Carter can do. Super Athletic and can score in crazy bunches. If Nelson gets injured again, they are fucked already…..
I’m really not sure what your point is here. I basically just felt like adding another “sic” to your collection. ;-)
Across teams, common on Sleepy, you know better than that. You know that +/- across teams doesnt [sic] mean much.
Agreed that Turk probably gets an unfair boost for playing on a good team alongside a franchise player. Still, given how similar they are statistically, I think plus-minus is worth a look.
He was the best player on the team last year including anybody named Harris.
On a pretty crappy team. Devin Harris is almost certainly better, and by the end of the season Brook Lopez probably was too.
Carter>Turkolglu
You are smart enought [sic] to know that.
And you are smart enough to know that simply asserting stuff to be true is weak.
Why Howard is already top 5 players in the league and is good enoug [sic] to lead a team to the promise [sic] land, if they got a ffew [sic] other stars.
I’m not sure what this means. If I didn’t express myself clearly enough: I think the Magic’s biggest hope for improvement this season over last season lies in the potential for Howard’s game to get even better than it already is. The fact that he’s already Top 5 doesn’t change this.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 2:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Potential vs Production
Been there, done that…We have only had ONE player drafted based on potential to actually turn out good…Any guesses?…That’s right, Dwight Howard. Adn did you know that in that same draft we also got Jameer Nelson, 4-year College player from St. Joe’s, who just happened to be Co-Player of the Year. And you know HOW we got him? Because he dropped to #22, as other teams looked over him to draft other PG’s on…yep, you guessed it, POTENTIAL. It takes a delicate balance of youthful potential and experience in order to succeed as a franchise.
You prefer potential…I say, it means nothing without production.
by pianolady on Sep 24, 2009 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Potential vs Production
False dichotomy.
It takes a delicate balance of youthful potential and experience in order to succeed as a franchise.
Totally agreed.
You prefer potential
This is false.
I say, it means nothing without production.
This is also false, or at least an oversimplification. I mean, it’s one thing to speculate, based on nothing but a few workouts or YouTube clips, that a young player is going to have a great NBA career. A lot of fans fall prey to this kind of thinking, and generally regret doing so. But it’s quite another thing to look at a player’s age and tools and NBA production and trends in said production and make a reasonable projection. In the case of Randolph (presumably, the target of your post) I think it’s fair to look at the way he progressed his rookie season, and the way he looked in Summer League, and the fact that he just turned 20, and make a reasonable projection that he’s going to be something better than what we’ve seen so far. How much better remains to be seen, but I think if you polled most NBA GMs, they’d agree that Randolph’s realistic ceiling is higher than that of anyone on the Magic not named Howard. And if you factor in $$$ … I’d guess the vast majority of GMs would take Randolph over any non-Howard Magic player (possibly excepting Otis Smith, since he already has a dominant young post presence, and his team is already in the conversation for NBA champs).
Basically, you said it perfectly the first time round: “it takes a delicate balance of youthful potential and experience to succeed as a franchise.”
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 24, 2009 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The success of this year’s Orlando Magic really depends on the Boston Celtics. If the Celtics stay relatively healthy, no team in the East will come close to stopping them.
"We Deserve"
by YaHeard on Sep 22, 2009 4:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would put the Magic at 2nd best in the East, though. Shaq is going to make the Cavs worse, the dude isn’t even focused on basketball anymore.
"We Deserve"
by YaHeard on Sep 22, 2009 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
an unfocused shaq is an improvement over a dead ben wallace, and they added moon to help guard bigger wing players. they should be a fair amount better next season.
and don’t assume lebron won’t make another leap forward this year. if he keeps getting better, the cavs could easily be the team to beat next year.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Sep 22, 2009 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did. I actually think Turkey might be a little better. And those two years are pretty key when you’re talking age 31 v. 33. Carter is getting mighty close to the age where players start to decline pretty dramatically.
Right, but that means Turk is only 2 years behind him, and Carter was only signed to a 2 year deal anyway. Like I said, more cap flexibility. Keep in mind that I’m not just bashing Turk because he isn’t on the Magic anymore. Most people that overestimate his value only witnessed his performance in the playoffs which is not indicative of his time with Orlando as a whole. He did quite well yes, but all this “point forward essential to the team’s success” is a crock. I had a lot of questions about Turk’s shot selection and inability to finish his drives and still do. Vince has been playing on terrible teams since he entered the league. More than anything it seems like Vince’s motivation is in question, not his talent. Vince has been a superstar, and allstar, heir Jordan. Turk is quite good.
Consider this recent video of Vince showing his stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5cOhMP2oLg
I didn’t compare efficiency; I compared plus-minus. Not the be-all and end-all of stats, but not a useless piece of data either.
My mistake, but what I said applies to plus minus also. In context, this seems like a terrible comparison tool.
Fans tend to like their team’s bench. I would rather have Gortat than Turiaf at backup C, mostly because of his freakish rebounding. On the other hand, I’ll take our Brandan over your Brandon; ACC sharpshooter Morrow over ACC sharpshooter Reddick; hunky Azubuike over hunky Barnes; and spunky Curry/CJ over spunky Johnson/Williams.
Well consider we spent a large part of the offseason pursuing CJ Watson I certainly not going to debate Golden State has a solid bench. However I was never trying to say who’s bench is better. Anyone would take Morrow over Reddick at this point, and Watson over Johnson or Williams. But the Orlando bench is comprised of a lot of role players who have performed well in those situations before. Also Brandon Bass has a huge upside. Despite the fact that a lot of fans tend to like their teams, I still say Orlando’s bench will surprise people, but to clarify, that isn’t saying Golden State’s won’t be equally as impressive. But Golden State doesn’t figure to be in the title hunt, so they won’t get much time in the spotlight unfortunately.
by BlueSkyOneCloud on Sep 22, 2009 8:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Basically agreed with all these points.
Just to clarify: I’m not questioning the wisdom of the Magic declining to sign Turkoglu, at age 30, to a pricey long-term deal. Nabbing Carter at much shorter money does make a ton of sense for the Magic. What I’m still not buying, however, is that a 33 year-old Carter represents any kind of significant upgrade in wins over a 31 year-old Turkoglu. I just don’t see it, either anecdotally or statistically; and somehow the hue and cry of “come on, dude we’re talking VIN-SANITY!!!!!” (from a couple of my fellow GSoMers, not from you) fail to persuade me.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can see where you’re coming from with that. Really the only reason I’d see Vince being better than Turk for the Magic is if he can start taking it to the hoop with some regularity like he did in the video I posted. But you’re right, that’s a big IF.
I don’t think Vince is anywhere near his former glory, but I wouldn’t blame him if he was only giving 60%-70% effort in New Jersey. It seems like he would have a chip on his shoulder, with the way everyone is sort of counting him out.
Anyway, nice chatting. Good to see there are some decent fans around the league. I also have to say I am genuinely interested to see how the Warriors do this season, especially with the way Randolph played in the summer league. Adding Curry shouldn’t hurt. ;)
by BlueSkyOneCloud on Sep 23, 2009 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adding Curry shouldn’t hurt. ;)
except that it gives us more rookie mistakes to suffer through while you guys enjoy an experienced pro like Carter
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 23, 2009 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG
Okay, just to help clarify things, WE DID NOT SIGN VINCE CARTER!!!
It was a TRADE. He has 3 years left on his deal, only 2 of them are guaranteed. Geesh
by pianolady on Sep 24, 2009 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn’t say you signed him. He said he “was signed.” Geesh.
I think we’re all in agreement that the shortness of Vince’s contract is one of the things that made him a much more appealing option than Turkoglu.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 24, 2009 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is hard not to like Orlando in the East
…. maybe for the champs.
They have the franchise player in Howard, at center, which is not a position of strength for most teams. They have quality starters (all stars, for what that is worth) at PF, SG, and PG in Lewis, VCarter, and JNelson. They have quality role players. And they have a good coach whose system fits the team.
Cleavland has the franchise player (LeBron), quality starters in MWilliams (PG) and Shaq ©, with strong role players and a coach whose system fits the team. I don’t think LeBron is so much better than Howard to overcome the relative deficiencies. It is worth discussing, and I might be under-rating the rest of the Cavs (or just how good LeBron really is) but I’d have to say the Magic have the advantage here.
The Celtics have the franchise player – Kevin Garnett (PF/C), if he’s healthy – and/or Paul Pierce (SF) and Ray Allen (SG), and a point guard in Rondo who has shown a noteworthy ability to carry the team as well. They have strong role players Wallace, Perkins, Davis, and House. They have a coach and a system that won a championship 1.5 years ago and still fits the team well. The only thing that gives Orlando any strong advantage here is that so many of the Celtics important pieces are old and showing signs of breaking down. In a seven game series with everyone healthy, who knows which way it will go. In a seven game series at the end of an 82 game season, after (potentially) one round of the playoffs, there are a lot of opportunities for the wheels to come off the Celtics championship bus.
The Hawks are a nice team with some really good players, but nobody in the class of LeBron, Howard, or Garnett (or should I say Garnett-Pierce-Allen-Rondo.) They would really have to outperform expectations to challenge in the East.
The Heat have Wade (, Beasley,) and expiring contracts. Those expiring contracts might actually be able to imitate a basketball team sufficiently to make the Heat interesting again (much like last year,) but they are not competing for the championship.
Did I just mention the heat in a discussion of who’s competing in the East? I think I’ve already gone on longer than I needed to. I will stop now.
by toddaverth on Sep 23, 2009 2:40 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
as much as it pains me to even acknowledge the existence of the Lakers
I will attempt to give them the same treatment here:
Franchise player: Kobe – SG (unless you want to point out that maybe it’s really Pau.)
Other All-star caliber players: Pau Gasol – C/PF), Lamar Odom – F, Ron Artest – SF/SG
Strong role players: Andrew Bynum – C, Derek Fisher – PG (maybe being generous, but he has an annoying habit of hitting big shots and being a part of teams-I-don’t-want-to-win winning.)
Coach and system: Phil Jackson. Triangle. Wins. Hard to argue against.
This is a solid team. They won it last year with Ariza instead of Artest. That “trade” may have been a mistake considering the players roles and relative strengths and weaknesses (but maybe not, too.) Then again, both Boston and Orlando were effected by significant injuries last year. I would not be surprised to see either Orlando or Boston beat them, Orlando possessing the age/injury advantage over Boston as discussed earlier.
All of this, of course, is just my clearly unbiased opinion.
by toddaverth on Sep 23, 2009 3:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will stop now.
Washington Wizards:
Franchise: Gilbert Arenas – G
Former All-stars: Caron Butler, Antoine Jamison
Other role players: Brendan Heywood, Randy Foye, Mike Miller, various young guys – McGee, Blatche – who got to play more than expected last year (much to the team’s immediate chagrin, but potentially beneficial to this year.)
Coach and style: Flip Saunders (has had some success) and we shall see if the new, non-princeton, put-the ball-in-Gilbert’s-hands offense actually works.
They seem to think they are in it. The last time the team actually all played together they were in it. Now they have arguably improved the pieces around the core. The reasons for hope make sense.
However, this is not the East of 2 1/2 years ago we are talking about. Is Gilbert the Gilbert of 2 1/2 years ago? Is he better? Is Saunders better than Eddie Jordan for this team? Even if everything works just right, do they really have enough to hang with Orlando? I don’t think they do. (But ESPN keeps talking about them and I like what they are trying to do, so I decided they were worth mentioning.)
by toddaverth on Sep 23, 2009 4:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And they have a good coach whose system fits the team.
Just wanted to underline this, as I think it’s a key point — not so much in the comparison between the Ws and the Magic (though I’d flip Nellie for Stan Van Ron Jeremy in a heartbeat) but in the comparison between Magic and the Cavs. I think SVG absolutely schooled Mike Brown in last year’s ECF; and if they meet again, I can imagine him doing it again.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 5:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might be under-rating the rest of the Cavs (or just how good LeBron really is)
Don’t under estimate Lebron,
I’ve seen times when times I would not have wanted to be anywhere near Lebron when he was attacking the rim, and I can’t say that about MJ even .
Standing on the moon
Where talk is cheap and vision true
Standing on the moon
But I would rather be with you
Somewhere in San Francisco
On a back porch in July
Just looking up to heaven
At this crescent in the sky
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 23, 2009 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shaq ©
I think he prefers Shaq™. ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 2:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
excellent!
Didn’t catch that SBNation converts ( C ) to ©. I am glad I did not. =)
by toddaverth on Sep 23, 2009 2:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOTTEST "Around the Association: 2009-2010" post ever!
Beyond Golden State of Design... and than some!
http://www.tonypsd.blogspot.com/
by Tony.psd on Sep 23, 2009 7:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, I have to say: cheeziness of the team nickname and blandness of the city notwithstanding, the Magic a very intriguing team, right on the cusp of their first championship, but still a bit of a longshot to get there.
Plus, as you may know, when I get my “hackles up” in a debate, I can spill a word or two… ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*
Also, props to the Hash-man for a well-written and on-point diary.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 23, 2009 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 


















