The Case for Monta Ellis as an All-Star
I know, I know. We've all heard the arguments before: Monta Ellis deserves to be an all-star because of his numbers, or Monta Ellis doesn't deserve to be an all-star because of the wins. However, there should be more to the argument than just that. I'm going to delve deeper, and I'm not once going to mention a scoring average or a Per36 average.
-First off, I strongly disagree that an all-star bid should be predicated on team success, for a simple reason: There are very few players who make their team quantifiably better. There are myriad players in the league who make their team better (and I believe that Monta Ellis is one of those people), but a minuscule number of players who can turn a bad team into a good team.
In my opinion, there are only six players in the league who would take any team to the playoffs: Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Tim Duncan and Dirk Nowitzki. If you replaced Monta Ellis with any of these six players, I believe that the Golden State Warriors would make the playoffs. If you replaced Monta Ellis with any other player in the league, I'm no longer willing to guarantee post-season play. Does this mean that no player other than these six should be rewarded with an all-star bid? Of course not.
There is a reason that we have one MVP, and 24 all-stars. An MVP award should be predicated on wins. All-Stars should not.
Let us consider one very simple scenario: pretend that before the season, the Warriors traded Monta Ellis for Amar'e Stoudemire. Would the Warriors be a playoff team? I highly, highly, highly doubt it. So clearly one player (excepting the aforementioned six) cannot turn around our franchise. On the flip side, would the Suns be a bad team? Absolutely not! So, naturally, Monta is not a guaranteed "loser" if he could play for a different organization and win.
So ultimately, Stoudemire is being rewarded for having a two-time MVP/fellow All-Star starter and a strong, healthy supporting cast, while Monta is being reprimanded for playing with a rookie, a 6th man, and some D-leaguers. That is the difference between an All-Star starter and most likely, an All-Star snub. Does that seem fair?
Again, only six players (in my estimation), make a team an automatic playoff team, which leaves us with 18 all-stars that are merely "really good players that contribute to their team's success, however insignificant that success may be."
Gerald Wallace will possibly be an All-Star, but only because the Bobcats acquired Stephen Jackson, and thus became a .500 team (for the record, I strongly feel that Wallace should be an all-star, regardless). Josh Smith will probably be an all-star, but take him off the Hawks, and you still have a playoff team (again, I also feel that Smith should be an all-star). A quick look at Per36 stats (said I wouldn't show these, but in case you want to find them), for those who live by them, shows that Stephen Jackson's numbers this season with the Warriors are nearly identical to his numbers with Charlotte, yet somehow I hear whispers from many analysts that he should be in All-Star consideration, because Charlotte is in the playoff hunt. Remember: in basketball, it takes five to tango. (To clarify: I think team success should be factored in all-star consideration to an extent; it is, however, unfair that Mo Williams was an all-star last year, unless you consider having LeBron James as your teammate a "talent.")
-Second, the NBA has made it evident that the All-Star game is about entertainment. They made this very clear by letting Allen Iverson be named starter, and Tracy McGrady almost beat out Steve Nash, and still supporting the idea of fan-voting. If the game is about entertainment, you should have, well, the entertaining players play. Anyone who has watched a road Warriors game on TV has heard the "oooohs" and "ahhhhs" of the crowd after a spectacular spin move, or a fast break reverse lay-up. Does the NBA really think that the 90,000 fans packed into the Dallas stadium would rather see Zach Randolph or Chris Kaman than Monta Ellis? Call me biased, or maybe just call me a fan of the game. I'd sure love to see Monta, Kobe and Durant attacking the rim with reckless abandon, while LBJ, Wade, Smith, Wallace, and Dwight Howard fly out of nowhere to reject them. That sounds like an entertaining all-star game.
-Back to the debate about wins, how do you quantify a team's record, and what that means? Player A has 13 wins, playing with a rookie, a 6th man, a D-League, and in the Western Conference, far superior to the East in terms of depth. Player B has 23 wins, playing with a highly-touted 2nd year, a former all-star, a healthy roster, and in the Eastern Conference. How can you quantify how much more impressive Player B is than Player A, other than a few stats (eerily similar), and watching them play? In case you haven't guessed, Player B is Dwyane Wade. By my estimation, playing in the Eastern conference gives the W's another three wins. Having a healthy, former All-Star Center gives them another two wins. Having a healthy supporting cast gives them another two wins. that puts them the Monta at 20 wins, to D-Wade's 23.
Obviously, I hope that Monta one day can turn any team into a playoff team, and truly join the league's elite as one of the best five or six players in the league; but he should not be punished for it, when 18 other players are being rewarded.
Monta Ellis would be an All-Star if we had traded him for Ray Allen.
Monta Ellis would be an All-Star if we had acquired Amar'e Stoudemire to play beside him.
Monta Ellis would be an All-Star if we had never gotten rid of Baron Davis.
So sure, critics, keep claiming that "Monta Ellis doesn't make his team better." But just remember: If he had Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Ron Artest and Andrew Bynum on his side, you'd be gushing about how good the Warriors are, and how "Monta Ellis is a huge reason for that success."
Does that seem fair?
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Hopefully he becomes a injury alternate..He outplayed Roy and he's stats are better than Deron's....
His stats are better than Deron Williams?
How on earth do you figure that?
There are three categories where they are not close:
Williams is shooting 49%. Monta is shooting 43%.
Williams is averaging 9.2 assists/36, Monta is averaging 4.8
Williams shoots 3s at 38% (good), Monta at 31% (not).
Monta is averaging 1.9 steals/36, Williams 1.0
The former four are way more important than the latter one. I’m not a huge fan of assists as a stat, but in this case I think it’s a good representation of how Williams is an excellent floor general through which a cohesive offense runs smoothly, and Monta is … not.
There are a bunch of other stats where they are very close:
FT/36 3.4 for Williams, 3.5 for Monta. (Monta gets to the line a bit more, but WIlliams hits ’em at a better clip, and the result is a wash).
BLocks .2/36 Williams, .3/36 Monta. Trivial.
Rebounds: 3.8/36 Williams, 3.7/36 Monta. Also trivial.
Turnover 3.5/36 to 3.1/36, favoring Williams.
How on earth do you get that his stats are better than Williams?
As for Roy, again, he’s better in almost every statistical category … so you say Monta deserves to go because he outplayed him once head-to-head?
There are several categories where they are close:
Williams is averagign 3.8 reb/36, Monta is averaging 3.7
And that’s before you see the difference in TS%. Deron’s .588 blows Monta’s .519 out of the water.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Not about either player
but I was somewhat surprised to learn that Durant has a TS% of 59.9. I didn’t think it would be that high.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, he’s a murderer on the offensive side of the ball. Good to see a young guy start to get it all figured out and not just on offense either, he’s finally playing some defense now too.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
52% as a rookie, 57% last year, just under 60% this year
He might be able to have one of the highest TS% of all time.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 6:37 PM PST up reply actions
The case against Monta:
West Guards:
Kobe, Durant, CP3, D. Will, Roy, Billups
West Forwards:
Amare, Dirk, Z-Bo, Pau
West Centers:
Duncan, Kaman
And the Coaches picked the reserves, so what’s the problem there?
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
Those guys are all deserving
But Monta’s stats are more impressive than Kaman’s, Z-Bo’s, and Amar’e’s (and arguably D-Will’s and Roy’s…left out Billups because he is definitely responsible for many wins), but he loses consideration because he loses. It seems like Kaman or Z-Bo are strong cases because they have good numbers on good teams, whereas Monta has great numbers on a bad team. But stick Z-Bo or Kaman on the Warriors, in place of Monta, and they still have merely good numbers on a still bad team.
Fair? I don’t think so.
Note:
All of those guys are responsible for many wins, not just Billups. I merely made that note about Billups because he doesn’t have fantastic stats, but is just as good as those other guys. He plays best by being a leader, not necessarily by being a star.
If that's the case...
Than we should just have this:
PG: Nash
SG: Monta
SF: Kobe
PF: ’Melo
C: Durant
This would be the most explosive and best scoring team the West has ever put on the floor. Screw rebounding and defense, since flash and points are the best stats.
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
Monta does not have great numbers this year. There’s more to basketball than PPG. He’s been an inefficient scorer, a mediocre passer, an acceptable rebounder and a pretty good defender (it makes me soooo happy to say that, you have no idea), but on the whole, he hasn’t been “all-star caliber.” He’s giving it his all and playing absurd amounts of mintues, but he’s forced his game too much and as a result, his play has suffered. He just hasn’t been as good as anyone who made the team.
Also, Kaman and Z-Bo are bigs. Their inclusion on the team has nothing to do with Monta making it. Focus on the guards and he’s been less impressive than all of them.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Basically this. The decision not to include Monta might have been because his team isn’t winning, I can’t speak to that, but the correct decision (which is not to include Monta) is based on his numbers not actually being great when you dig down into them more. Efficiency matters. Turnovers matter.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
Other western guards probably outperforming Monta
If you look beyond PPG:
Baron Davis. Steve Nash. Manu Ginobli.
And this is completely leaving out the category of “low per game totals, do lots of other things to help you win” guys like Jason Richardson and Kyle Lowry, because I don’t want to get into another fight about WP48, but these guy’s WP48s demolish Monta’s.
I dunno...
BD just lost to the NETs. At home. By double digits.
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 28, 2010 4:16 PM PST up reply actions
Baron has not been very good since he went to the Clippers….
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 5:05 PM PST up reply actions
Correction ...
The Clippers just lost to the nets.
Even very good players occasionally see their teams lose to worse teams.
Woops forgot 'Melo as well
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
And the Coaches picked the reserves, so what’s the problem there?
The problem is they didn’t pick the guys you show :>) They picked Durant, Gasol,Dirk,CP#,Randolf,Roy,and D.Ron.
They should have picked Montay over Roy, he clearly outplayed him head to head and they should have picked Kaman over Gasol cause he’s having a better season.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions
He clearly outplayed him head-to-head, and was much worse in every other game.
And Kaman isn’t having a better season than Gasol, either.
And Kaman isn’t having a better season than Gasol, either
Put Gasol on the Clippers and have him play center and you’ll understand it.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2010 11:51 PM PST up reply actions
and was much worse in every other game.
Maybe I read their stats wrong then? I had Montay 26PPG, 5.6Apg, 4.3 Rpg and 2.17Spg versus Roy 23.1Ppg, 5Apg,4.6Rpg and 1.02 Spg?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2010 11:54 PM PST up reply actions
The Warriors have the fastest pace in the NBA by a huge margin
and the Blazers have one of the, if not the, slowest paces in the NBA. Monta also plays a ridiculous amount of minutes, whereas Brandon Roy plays a more reasonable load for a supastah.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 1:02 AM PST up reply actions
Monta also plays a ridiculous amount of minutes, whereas Brandon Roy plays a more reasonable load for a supastah.
So Montay deserves to be in the allstar game more this year.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 29, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
Haha. +1. I’m a bit surprised at how some of the otherwise clever kids in this thread can be so unclear on the concept of “All-Star Game.” We’re talking a popularity contest among casual fans, not sabermetric analysis of players’ expected contributions to wins. PPG, MPG, and style points (of the sort Monta racks up in bunches) are what it’s all about. WP48 and the like … not so much.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 29, 2010 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
YOu're not reading the stats wrong, you're reading the wrong stats.
Monta Roy
FG% .464 .484
Reb/36 3.7 4.3
TOV/36 4.1 2.2
Ast/36 4.8 4.7
pts/36 22.2 21.7
3pt% .311 .353
TS% .519 .581
Stl/36 1.9 1.0
Monta’s per game numbers look better because he plays more minutes, but he’s actually a worse player, primarily because he scores less efficiently – A LOT less efficiently – and turns the ball over nearly twice as much, and there’s no aspect of his game that’s sufficiently better to compensate for those two glaring flaws.
there’s no aspect of his game that’s sufficiently better to compensate for those two glaring flaws.
you mean other than the way Montay dominated Roy head to head? The coaches should have been required to watch that game again before voting.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 29, 2010 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
That's one game.
Let’s use that logic. If you dominate another player, they can’t go to the all-star game over you?
Really? You want to use that logic. How many players are there who can then claim that they deserve to go because they dominated Monta in their head-to-head matchup with him?
Half the guards in the league, maybe?
One great game – and Monta played great in that ONE game against Roy – does not make up for the 40 other games where Monta has been worse than Roy.
you mean other than the way Montay dominated Roy head to head
Brandon Jennings, All-star Snub!
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 2:04 PM PST up reply actions
Brandon Jennings, All-star Snub!
Yeah, they should automatically put in the guy with the most point scored in a game up till the break, also the most rebounds and the most assists.If it’s about performance they should acknowledge the bests ones of the season.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 29, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
are you joking? I can’t tell
And that’s exactly what makes Skeptic a must read on GSoM.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
by olympicmike on Jan 30, 2010 12:00 AM PST up reply actions
wow
I hope you see how flawed your logic is.
by randolphforpresident on Jan 29, 2010 4:25 PM PST up reply actions
Monta should have made it
Wade made the team with less impressive stats in 2007 when the Heat only had 15 wins. He only played in 51 games that year, but he had better players than the d-leaguers Monta is playing with. Although Wade was voted in that year, you can bet that he would have been chosen by coaches if the fans didn’t vote him in.
Wade made the team with less impressive stats in 2007 when the Heat only had 15 wins.

DWade was:
A) Finals MVP
B) Household name
C) Really, really good
D) Putting up better numbers than Monta that year… in all categories.
E) Only missed 9 games before the All Star break
I’m assuming you’re referring to his 51 game season in 07/08 instead of his superior 51 game season in 06/07.
I’m all for being a bit homeristic, but please, try not to take it too far here.
You have been DFiBrillated.
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jan 28, 2010 4:24 PM PST up reply actions
Haha
Who would you rather have, Monta or Wade? It isn’t even remotely close. Wade is a much, much better player than Monta. And guess what? When Wade does his media interviews, he can actually looks the reporters in the eye and speak in complete sentences!
I’m not sure if anyone caught MTII’s latest article, but he talks about the fact that Monta has spoken to the media once since last Friday’s “injury”. He poses a very valid question in response: how many “face of the franchise” players are allowed to get away with that? I can’t think of any.
by randolphforpresident on Jan 28, 2010 11:49 PM PST up reply actions
Wade made the team with less impressive stats in 2007 when the Heat only had 15 wins.
Over who?
There are lists of players better than Monta in this thread. Whether Monta is better than Wade was in 2007 is irrelevant! He’s not competing against the 2007 version of Wade.
He’s competing against Nash, Kobe, WIlliams, Paul, Baron Davis, Brandon Roy, etc.
And even still – the notion that Wade got in, while not deserving it, in 2007 doesn’t that Monta should get in while not deserving it.
Why does people even care that much about a pickup game?
I care much more about my team and don’t give a …. about who is snubbed and who’s not. Every All-star I watched I felt asleep because it was like playing poker for Monopoly’s money. When/if we become a real contender(statistically we should once or twice in a century LOL) then I guess some of our players will get a call-up for all-star but I couldn’t care less if no Warrior player ever gets to play in an all-star game as long as we win a championship.
Monta Ellis gets snubbed
From being on True Hoop’s snub list. I think that pretty much says it all. He isn’t really deserving of an all-star spot this year.
Same thought I had
Got linked to that site on twitter and thought to myself I wonder what they will say about Ellis, but he didn’t even get a mention.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!
seriously you guys i just spent an hour writing a lengthy and extremely well written argument for monta to be named an all-star, and then i grazed a certain key called “backspace” with my pinky! nevertheless, i will not be defeated! here is my extremely abbreviated, sloppily written argument:
1) there are no official critieria for all-star consideration for coaches or fans. stan van gundy can vote for anderson varejou because he looks like sideshow bob. so go ahead and come up with the most obscure, convoluted statistical analysis you want. it doesn’t prove anything but your affinity for regimented abstractions.
2) monta is one of the top 2 or 3 athletes in the league. does he have the skillset of a williams or roy ( his competition for a reserve guard spot)? not yet. his handles are still lacking, his perimiter game is in it’s early stages, and his passing is suspect and sometimes lazy. nevertheless, just as everybody and their brother has repeated ad nauseum that monta’s “stats” are not on their “level”, there can be no argument that they are not on his athletic-scoring/playmaking “level”. in fact, i would argue the disparity between the latter far exceeds that of the former. if those two had monta’s athleticism and ability to finish at high speed or change speed incredibly quickly and pull up for a finesse jumper, they’d be putting up lebron-esque numbers, and they’re not.
all the more bewildering is the praise lebron receives despite his many glaring defficiencies. just ask rick barry. example: what other player can simply ignore basic fundamentals such as avoiding terminating one’s dribble? he simply bails himself out by exploding by/through/over entire teams.
this is not the nfl where super-athletes are on every team. basketball requires a great deal more finnesse. we’re talking about putting a 9.4 inch ball through an 18 inch ring situated ten feet in the air, as opposed to crossing an imaginary plane. no comparison.
therefore, when players as profoundly unique as monta come about, let’s acknowledge how special they are, not try to compare them with bulky, plodding players like deron williams, or slow, low-flying 2 gaurds like roy. they’re just not on monta’s level…
the public option is a pathetic compromise. death to the insurance companies!!!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 28, 2010 8:50 PM PST reply actions
You sound like Al Davis ...
… evaluating WRs by their 40 yard times, not caring if they can actually catch the ball or not.
Here’s the thing: Monta may, in fact, be the amazing athlete you say he is. For the sake of argument, I’ll agree with you. But he’s not actually using that athleticism to make his team better. He’s the WR who no DB can cover who can’t catch the ball.
The LeBron argument fails simply because LeBron is winning, and he is the reason he team is winning. The Warriors not named Monta stack up reasonably well against the Cavaliers not named LeBron (and if we were healthy, it might even come out in our favor). So yeah, Lebron may have all sorts of faults, but they don’t matter because he’s a great basketball player. Monta isn’t.
If Monta really is the freakish athletic talent you say he is, that just makes his performance that much less acceptable.
you analogy misses the point
in this context monta isn’t the WR that no DB can cover but can’t catch. he’s the undersized WR who’s incredible catching ability, at high speed, makes him one of the top young stars, despite poor route running etc.
as far as monta’s winning percentage vs. lebron’s, way too many factors go into that including conference, style of play, and regularly playing two players over 7ft tall at once, one of which is shaq. anyway that’s neither here nor there. my point was that if lebron’s deficiencies can be ignored, so should monta’s to some lesser extent. after all, the only reason we’re having this conversation about monta potentially being an all-star despite _his_many deficiencies is his undeniably unique scoring ability.
the public option is a pathetic compromise. death to the insurance companies!!!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 29, 2010 1:04 AM PST up reply actions
Off the top of my head
I can think of 5 more athletic players than Monta, and if I was given time, I could probably think of another dozen.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 1:04 AM PST up reply actions
I think you’re seriously overestimating Monta’s athletic ability. He’s short, he’s skinny, he has short arms, those things matter. His lateral quickness is questionable. He’s not even close to guys like Lebron, Wade, Howard, Josh Smith, and Rondo in terms of his overall athletic package. He’s explosive no doubt, and a good athelte by NBA standards, but you seem to be strictly looking at the things he does possess (explosive quickness and leaping ability), and completely ignoring his weaker areas (the ones I listed – length, strength, height, lateral quickness).
monta’s "stats" are not on their "level", there can be no argument that they are not on his athletic-scoring/playmaking "level". in fact, i would argue the disparity between the latter far exceeds that of the former
Regardless of whether it is or not, who cares? Do you understand what stats are? They’re a record of what actually happened. You can talk about skills and athleticism all you want, but those things only matter in terms of what they allow a player to accomplish on the floor. And that’s why we look at stats, so we can actually see what a player is able to do on the basketball court, because again, the stats are just a record of what they actually did. In that context, Monta doesn’t do as many things that help his team win basketball games as those other all-stars. Regardless of how their athleticism and skills stack up, when they get on the NBA court, those guys play better than Monta, that’s all there is to it, and when we quote stats as evidence, we’re just telling you what actually happened.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
as i said before, the argument over athleticism depends on your definition. i wasn’t thinking of mass/weight/height/wingspan as athleticism. i think of that as physiology, if you will. so on that point we’re really arguing different things.
with regard to my quote, it was predicated on the idea that most fans only look at box score stats e.g. william’s higher assist average and FG% etc. i’m trying to make a purely sujective argument here, which i’m sure does not jive with you as it has no logical basis ;)
anyhoo i guess what i’m trying to get at is that it just isn’t feasible to create statistics to analyze certain things that make monta effective at certain skillsets. an example would be his ability to finish around the basket despite the speed he’s traveling at. how much those skillsets translate to wins is really beyond what i was trying to talk about. again, this argument is based on the idea that there are no official criteria by which a player be judged to determine whether they are an all-star. having said that, i do acknowledge that a teams record is widely used to help make these decisions, i just don’t like it.
also, i would caution that anyone literate probably understands on a basic level what a statisic is. that’s kinda weak sauce mayne.
bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 29, 2010 5:02 PM PST up reply actions
anyhoo i guess what i’m trying to get at is that it just isn’t feasible to create statistics to analyze certain things that make monta effective at certain skillsets.
This seems like a rather massive contortion you have to undertake to talk about what makes Monta work as a player, or, in the current case, not work.
Because you talk about his skills making him effective … but right now he’s not an effective player. He misses too many shots and turns the ball over too much.
If it’s that hard to measure what it is that makes Monta effective, maybe that’s because he’s not, actually, effective right now.
i would caution that anyone literate probably understands on a basic level what a statisic is.
I used to be a professional statistician and I can tell you with a huge amount of certainty that you’re wrong on this one.
hahaha your angst is quite apparent! anyway we keep getting back to effectiveness with regard to an increased chance of winning, which is not what i was trying to argue. i’m simply arguing that his ability to score athletically is very unique, and deserves praise. clearly you would disagree because you have not found a model which suggests this is a meaningful attribute to winning, but i simply don’t care! it’s impressive on a play-by-play basis and the main reason i watch warriors games!
bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 30, 2010 1:27 PM PST up reply actions
clearly you would disagree because you have not found a model which suggests this is a meaningful attribute to winning,
The problem is this is a team game so Montay can be very effective as an individual but we can still lose all the games . If an Allstar can only come from a winning record team then they should re-name it to the “best players on winning teams” game? Probably the fairest way to pick them would be to rate them like they do fantasy players and take the fans and coaches preferences out of the equation.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 30, 2010 8:16 PM PST up reply actions
Very few people have suggested the W's record is why Monta doesn't deserve to go.
It’s his play.
He’s not contributing to winning basketball. Take away the turnover and a bunch of the missed shots, and the Warriors, with our injuries, wouldn’t have a lot more wins, but I’d be happy to sing Monta’s praises.
It’s not just that we’re not winning. It’s that Monta isn’t playing good basketball.
High volume, low-efficiency scoring is not a skill which I think is worthy of praise.
Back when I played team sports, I was a classic “glue” guy. (Different sport, but I was a state champion, FWIW). I was the guy who cleaned up other peoples mistakes, helped everybody else do their job, and was always there to cover when the flashy guy screwed up and threatened to give the other team easy points.
So I don’t have a lot of respect for guys like that. We live in a culture that overvalues them too much anyway. (eg, the guy who scores the winning goal, even if it’s the only thing he does well all day, gets the game ball over the guy who shut down the league’s leading scorer for the whole afternoon). I’d rather see the extra recognition go to the guy who ISN’T the flashy one, but who’s helping his team win anyway.
i would caution that anyone literate probably understands on a basic level what a statisic is
As Ronaldinho mentioned, this is a pretty huge assumption. Having discussions about baseball stats (since baseball is more statistically orientated than basketball) has made it pretty apparent to me that this is not the case. “I don’t care what the stats say” is used as an argument way too often…
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 8:39 AM PST up reply actions
well don't leave us hanging!
i can’t wait to laugh at your list!
the public option is a pathetic compromise. death to the insurance companies!!!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 29, 2010 1:08 AM PST reply actions
Oh
The obvious ones like Amar’e, Josh Smith, LeBron James, Andre Iguodala, Dwight Howard.
Those were the first guys that popped to my head.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 1:09 AM PST up reply actions
Only a homer would laugh at this list
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 1:10 AM PST up reply actions
Igoudala! Forgot him on my list. I dunno if Amare is still in that elite class, he definitely used to be. Thaddeus Young on the Sixers is a pretty ridiculous athlete. Nate Robinson, though he is really short, so that might keep him off the list. Randolph needs to add more strength but then could get some consideration. Wade definitely belongs on it. Chris Paul maybe? I’ve always been unclear on how explosive a jumper he is. I’m sure there are a lot of others I could think of with time.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:52 AM PST up reply actions
I was thinking that, then realized I haven’t seen him play in years. Playing for the Bobcats will do that. Is he still as athletic as he used to be?
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, Bimbo pointed out Amar'e.
I would replace him with Wade, and I agree that Chris Paul is really athletic.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions
hate to beat a dead horse....
but how is one’s height a measure of athleticism? is athleticism something to do with how one’s body works,or what size it is? i would argue his small stature is further evidence of his athleticism. it certainly has a lot to do with why he made the league. also, although something like strength is arguably a form of athleticism, i think when most people use the term their basic just referring to speed, rate of acceleration, and vertical leap. at least in basketball coversations. i mean, is shaq athletic? that just doesn’t sound right…
bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 29, 2010 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
At one point, Shaq was really athletic.
Now he’s old and fat.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 5:52 PM PST up reply actions
Well, on one hand, you have to factor height in, because if you don’t, you’re not comparing apples to apples. Short guys tend to be quicker, they can change directions faster, all that lower center of gravity/shorter legs stuff. If you don’t factor it in, you get arguments like “is Shaq athletic?”. Well, not anymore, but in his prime, the league has never seen anyone with his combination of size, strength, quickness, jumping ability – the full physical package was unique and on another level from anyone that has played the game before. I don’t know how that can possibly not be athletic, when he dominates the way he did on his sheer physical abilities, and not on refined basketball skills.
But as a whole, I think athleticism should refer to the whole package of inherit physical attributes – height, weight, strength, length, quickness, speed, jumping ability, coordination/smooth athleticism, lateral quickness…..all those things you can’t really change in a meaningful way, that are physical attributes, that affect how good you are at the sport. It doesn’t make sense to look at a certain subset of them and ignore the others. It’s the whole package that determines what kind fo player you are.
Plus, by your definition, being skinnier would always make you more athletic, and that just doesn’t seem like it should hold true… :)
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 8:48 AM PST up reply actions
fair enough
first, we throw amare right out. anybody that’s had microfracture surgery is off the list. he can’t get up like he used to, nearly as quickly as he used to. the other three are definitely in the hunt, although iggy is on the cusp if you ask me! ultimately it’s a subjective deal anyway, based on your definition of athleticism blah blah blah.
having said that, to argue that he’s not one of the, let’s say top 5 athletes, or in the upper echelon, or however you want to put it, is definitely not true. i mean a dozen more guys after those three? i don’t know what games your watching but the guy is 6’3" and thin. if you have an alternate theory for how he scores as capably as he does, i’m all ears.
the public option is a pathetic compromise. death to the insurance companies!!!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jan 29, 2010 1:36 AM PST reply actions
Yeah, you're right about that.
He’s probably a top 10-15 athlete and, failing that, is a lock for top 20.
His athleticism is the more subtle kind. He has amazing quickness and can fly through the air, even if he doesn’t have a huge vertical leap.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 2:31 AM PST up reply actions
good article,but....
u talkd about players who’l make any team better (lbj, kobe, duncan…) n u listed dwade on ther n hes a really great player but reason y hes not an mvp s bc he doesnt really make a team better lik the other guys…. miamis pretty average now n was REAL bad a couple of seasons ago…. jes sayin
by slackersphere17 on Jan 30, 2010 5:23 PM PST reply actions
he doesnt really make a team better lik the other guys
Have you ever watched Miami play? You could not be more wrong. Just because his teammates are very not good doesn’t mean he’s not making them better.
by Missing Barry on Feb 1, 2010 8:49 AM PST up reply actions
A roster spot just opened up...
sorry to see CP3 go, but…
by Ice Watter In His Veins! on Jan 31, 2010 11:26 PM PST reply actions
Yeah, too bad about CP3 hurting his knee.
now the question is will they pick Montay or Kaman?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 31, 2010 11:36 PM PST up reply actions
Chauncey.
Too boring
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 1, 2010 10:14 AM PST up reply actions

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