RUMOR: Amare Stoudemire to Golden State Warriors, Corey Maggette to Phoenix Suns
by Atma Brother ONE on Jan 28, 2010 12:05 PM PST
in Rumors
356 comments
What if these two were the starting 4/5 for the Golden State Warriors?
JUMP for the 411!
Our man Seth Pollack has the info over at Bright Side of the Sun in Amare Stoudemire to Golden State Warriors For Corey Maggette?, so I'll direct you to his piece. But here's a little snippet:
No seriously, we still have our standards. This "rumor" comes from an anonymous source on a message board, but he/she has proven over the years to have gotten some things right. And really, if you want to split hairs over Internet ethics just call this "speculation" instead of "rumor".
RealGM • View topic - All Amare Trade Talk Here
GSW are talking again....Oh, I should add GSW wants us taking Maggette's contract, +
Now the first thing you'd have to worry about from the Warriors perspective is whether Amare would just opt out his contract this offseason and bolt for brighter hoops pastures. Corey Maggette is having an outstanding year for the Warriors as evident by his solid A grade in the 2009-2010 Golden State Warriors Midterm Report Card. Why give him up for free?
But the thing is you have to have a little faith. WE BELIEVE in Mr. Ellison: Oracle CEO Larry Ellison trying to buy NBA franchise Golden State Warriors
Seth puts 2 and 2 together in his piece on why this trade might actually make sense for the Warriors. I don't know about you all, but selling high on Maggette for the chance to retain Amare and maybe even expedite Chris Cohan's sale of the Warriors? Sign me up. (Definitely check out Seth's piece. It's worth the cost of a click.)
Here's some Amare Stoudemire to the Warriors, Corey Maggette to the Suns trades that pass the ESPN trade machine check and give the Suns a number of expiring contracts:
- Stoudemire for Maggette, Speedy Claxton, and Devean George [ESPN Trade Machine]
- Stoudemire for Maggette, George, Brandan Wright, and C.J. Watson [ESPN Trade Machine]
Or my personal fav.... Stoudemire and Jason Richardson for Maggette, Claxton, George, Brandan Wright, C.J. Watson, Speedy Claxton, and Raja Bell [ESPN Trade Machine] enabling the 2010-2011 Golden State Warriors to field a lineup built for Nellieball in Don Nelson's final season:
- PG: Stephen Curry
- SG: Monta Ellis
- SF: Jason Richardson
- PF: Amare Stoudemire
- C: Andris Biedrins
- Bench: Anthony Randolph, Anthony Morrow (need to re-sign), Ronny Turiaf, Kelenna Azubuike, and a few D-Leaguers since this is the Golden State of D-Leaguers
2011 NBA Champs?
Of course not.
But interesting nevertheless.
Amare 2 the Bay Archives:
- RUMOR: Golden State Warriors, Minnesota Timberwolves, and Cleveland Cavaliers interested in Phoenix Suns power forward Amare Stoudemire
- RUMOR: Ric Bucher thinks Amare Stoudemire to Warriors still happens
- RUMOR: Amare Stoudemire not that interested in the Warriors
- Weighing the Rumor: cases for and against a deal for Stoudemire
- RECAP: Warriors' 2009 NBA Draft Day - Stephen Curry & Amar'e
- Warriors Draft Day 2009: This Pretty Much Says It All
-
RUMOR: Warriors inquired about Suns' Amare Stoudemire and offered Andris Biedrins
99% of rumors never happen, but 99% of them are fun to talk about!
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Keep Amare away!
Amare is going to want a max contract. And 6’10’’ forwards that don’t play D and average 8.4 Rebs. should not be given max contracts.
Ballin' like its '88!
You know we can trade for him then not offer him a max contract, right?
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
IDK MB…
You know we can trade for him then not offer him a max contract, right?
Mgmt should not be trusted.
Well, obviously, but if we’re just gonna assume they mess up any good move we make, why bother doing anything?
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:21 PM PST up reply actions
You realise the trade
would mean we get rid of maggs contract even if we don’t resign Amare…
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
though it is worth noting that this season Maggette has been as good or better than Stoudemire and he’ll make about half want Amare will want next year. Nobody on GSoM has been as down on Maggette and his contract as me, but the guy has played really well lately. I’m still not against trading Maggette, but I’m not sure that we shouldnt expect to get a little something in return rather than just dumping the contract.
Thing A
His stats are as fake as it gets
Just watching his game on the warriors makes me sick regardless of how good the numbers look. His game just doesn’t fit this teams needs in the longer term or even now. The stats may say he helps, but honestly I think a team is more about “The sum of its parts” rather than individual players. The “WE BELIEVE” team showed that. We need a 3 who can pass well (IE Point forward) and can spread the floor (a good 3 pnt shot). I honestly think Buki, even though the stats are not as good, helps our team more than Maggs.
Either way, he is playing like a beast and will definitely decline (while still having many years left on his contract) We need to use this opportunity to get what we can for someone who will definitely not play this well next season for us if he stays.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Yea, I dont disagree, I was just saying we should be able to get something for him considering the numbers he’s putting up
Thing A
I think an expiring contract is the best we can get, since it’s not a secret that he’s a black hole that would be best useful to a team playing only 25 min a game off the bench.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Jan 29, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
I disagree
Jack was a blackhole too right? What could we possibly get for him? Wait, what!?!?! He completely turned the Bobcats season around???!!?!
Magette is somewhat of a blackhole, but he would fit well on teams that need some efficient scoring. I think he has been a very good fit on the Dubs ever since Jack left. And as I was trying to point out above, just because someone isn’t playing well on one team, doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t fit on another team. Corey didn’t fit well on the Dubs with Jack and Ellis, but now without Jack he can have the ball more and get more shots and I think he is fitting in well.
The one problem with him is that he is injury prone. Besides that, he is worth his contract to a team he fits in well with seeing how he can provide instant and efficient offense.
by freerandolph on Jan 29, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Wait one second!!!!!!
Everyone keeps saying how bad at rebounding Amare is, but he is averaging 8.4 rebounds!?!?! Correct me if I’m wrong but that seems pretty average to slightly below average to me! I guess when someone is as good at scoring as Amare, people want him to be just as good at rebounding or something…? I could see people being a little disappointed with that number but that hardly seems like a reason to dislike him so much that you don’t want him on your team. Someone explain please.
by freerandolph on Jan 29, 2010 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Because it’s not just about having him on the team, there’s also the matter of paying him. If I’m giving someone max money, yes, I DO want them to be a very good rebounder.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions
He gets those 8.4 rebounds in 34.5 minutes a night — a lot of playing time for a big man — and on a fast-paced team, which means there are more rebounds per night to be had.
If you correct for those things, Amar’e grabs 13.4% of all possible rebounds. That puts him far, far behind Biedrins (17.9%) and Randolph (16.2%), for instance… Anthony Tolliver (14.0%) has rebounded a tad better in his brief appearances so far. Overall, Amar’e’s Rebounding Rate ranks somewhere in the forties (KnickerBlogger lists him as 49th, but a couple guys above him haven’t played many minutes). This year, Amar’e’s a distinctly below-average rebounder for a power forward.
That doesn’t mean he’s not a good player. But when you’re thinking about trading talent for a guy and then offering him max money or close to it, you’d kind of like him to be a great player. Amar’e is below-average in rebounding, passing and defense… personally, I don’t think his brilliant scoring is enough to counteract those other things and make him great.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
DO IT, Riley!
Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been a huge fan of Maggette’s play since Jackson’s departure, BUT his contract was seen as bloated back then and his contract is bloated now, no matter how crazy of offensive numbers he puts up. We need to SELL HIGH on Maggette while we can! He won’t be the same Maggs for the next 3 years! Hell, he may not be the same Maggs in the next 3 months! And to get Stoudemire in return without having to give up any of our key pieces? I SAY DO IT!!! But on the other hand, isn’t Phoenix trying to SHED contracts, not take more on? This move makes sense for the Warriors but not so much for the Suns. Highly doubt it will happen, but if its on the table, Larry Riley should not hesitate one bit in accepting this trade.
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
14.5 Million is what he makes in 2009-10. YUCK.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
But he becomes a valuable expiring after this season.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:22 PM PST up reply actions
An expiring is valuable only if you can find someone with contracts that they’re willing to unload that you’re willing to take on.
GM ‘strategy’ seems to go in waves. I fear that the “expirings are valuable” will die when everyone sees that the majority of teams that tried to collect them for next year won’t succeed in the endeavor.
i think the Raef expiring debacle changed alot of peoples minds.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:17 PM PST up reply actions
And we can give Raja Bell back to the Suns!
Reunited and it feels so good!
Formerly known as Five Ten Entertainment.
by Precise Films Productions on Jan 29, 2010 11:43 PM PST up reply actions
This “rumor” comes from an anonymous source on a message board
lol
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
Same guy who broke the Richardson trade to PHX and the Shaq trade to Cleveland
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
A no lose situation.
Corey’s contract is gone and even if we do nto sign Amare we have plenty of cap space and veryf ew long term deals hindering our future. Pull the frekain trigger.
by Eschew Obfuscation on Jan 28, 2010 12:21 PM PST reply actions
I voted no, but I didn’t read the post. I assumed it was more of the same Amare trade stuff. Then I read it and discovered the proposal is for Maggette. Yes, yes, and more yes. I like Maggette a lot, I think he’s useful as a player and he’s a great professional as a person. I also don’t think he has a role on this team in the future – as we get better and look at competing for the playoffs, he gets older and worse and his contract becomes a bigger burden. I would probably trade him for expirings right now. To get actual talent back, who we can then choose ro resign or not (or make an offer we think is fair and just let him decide)….absolutely, especially with our injury situation at big man. It would even give us a test run to see how Amare fits into our game before we have to make a decision to sign him.
So….yes, I would do this trade in a heartbeat. There’s no downside. I would also love to see JRich back, just because I love JRich. Plus, Amare is really just the same player as Maggette anyways, but actually a PF (instead of a SF playing PF).
YESSSSSSSSS
Should have did this in the beginning of the season. what we need to do is get Don Nelson out of there. Can we trade him!!!!!!!!!!!
The J-Rich loss was horrible. I’m still mad. We had a great team that year, and then as usual our GM and coaches got rid of everyone!!!!
by Neighborhood J on Jan 28, 2010 12:28 PM PST reply actions
I do this one in a heartbeat!
I like Maggette, but hate his contract.
I can’t see how the salary-averse suns do this deal, though.
Getting Amare without giving up Biedrins puts us in a great spot. Amare replaces Mags scoring, and plays the 4 (his most natural position). He’s not a great rebounder but by keeping Beans that’s a problem, it’s a rebounding upgrade since the real change is Amare at the 4 rather than Mags at the 4.
Amare may want a max deal, but it’s not clear to me that there will be one out there for him. It’s a short-term hit if Amare walks, but maybe a long term boon as we don’t have to deal with the tail end of Mags contract.
oooh.
I can’t wait to see this deal go through so that at next year’s All Star Game, when Amare is playing for the Heat, and Wright is an all star with the Suns (Phoenix’s amazing training staff + former Warrior All Star Theory) they can meet at half court and laugh about it.
by Ice Watter In His Veins! on Jan 28, 2010 12:53 PM PST reply actions
I was actually thinking that too, thought most people probably won’t agree with us. Randolph is going to demand a lot of money once his contract is up (his agent has already said so). Wright on the other hand, won’t take a whole lot of money to keep because of his injury history. If Wright can stay healthy, we know he can produce consistently, and well enough to at minimum be a decent rotation big. I still don’t know what to make of Randolph’s production.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
and to be honest....
It’s gonna take Randolph or Curry to get this done. Wright is actually worth less in a trade than he is to us. His injury value makes him almost a throw in for teams. Warriors fans know what kind of talent he has though.
I think only way this will happen is if we take JRich too, give them a load of expirings’ and Randolph or our 1st rd pick (personally id’ rather give Randolph). IMO There appears to be some real talent in this draft….
I don’t think Warriors would make such a deal though, unless Ellison wanted it. Reason I love idea of JRich though is its 14 mil expiring in 2011 with 3 free agents I am eying… Horford, Gasol Carmelo…. New ownership makes these not impossible anymore .
Plus as a Warriors fan I’d love to see JRich back, and odds are we could keep him on a 3 year MLE after 2011, which is not bad
If it comes down to choosing between Randolph and the 1st round pick to make the deal work, you have to go with Randolph. We can’t just give away our 15% chance at Wall considering he’s the most hyped player since LeBron.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
I dunno, Randolph + his potential vs. 15% chance at Wall (that is a lot more likely to go down than up)? The Wall side doesn’t look very favorable in that equation.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
True… it is likely to go down. Jeez, there are so many terrible teams in the East. Maybe the decision isn’t super clear-cut…
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
The Wall side doesn’t look very favorable in that equation
Yeah, 15% of a maybe versus 85% of a might be doesn’t look smart..
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2010 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
Damn,
You guys remember who Randolph is right—Why give up on him? And please don’t type anything if it has the words Anthony and Tolliver in them.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
I don’t necessarily want to give up on Randolph but he has the value to get a good deal done. Any deal that looks like the team is close to getting sold is what I’m looking for. I don’t care who has to go to get it done. The more I think about it though, San Francisco Slim is right about the 1st rounder having to be #1 protected. That would probably be a better choice than giving up Randolph.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
Tafkasm, I agree with your take. Suns wouldn’t be interested in this deal unless it involves Randolph, Curry or 2010 1st (btw, any 2010 first has to be John Wall – 1st pick – protected), with or without J -Rich.
One thing, if Atma’s J-Rich trade proposal happens, Warriors could be in cap trouble if Amare actually re-ups with them. They would replace Magette and Wright’s $12.5 million salaries with at least twice that from J-Rich and Stoudmire. In other words if that trade happened, Ellison would have to be involved – Cohan wouldn’t pay all that luxury tax.
by San Francisco Slim on Jan 28, 2010 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
The Hawks
Ain’t letting Horford go. Keep dreaming on that front. I think Carl Landry could be bid for much easier.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
If it takes Randolph, Curry or a pick count me out. I don’t particularly like Maggette’s contract but giving up an almost identical player for Amare (check out per36 numbers) plus one of our top two cheap young players seems like an overpay. If the Suns ask for both like everyone on the suns’ sbn site are thinking I’d hang up on them immediately.
Thing A
I bet you'd vote for Tolliver as ROY too wouldn't you?
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
I love the Stoudemire for Maggette, Speedy Claxton, and Devean George trade.. Biedrins + Amare are good for around 20 rebounds a night, plus Ellis doesn’t have to be the main guy every second he’s on the court. Curry gets a scoring big who he’d work fantastic with (Nash/Amare duo v2?) and We have a lot of players providing energy off the bench (Turiaf, Randolph, Morrow). Then we resign Amare to a massive contract we might regret, but if it means we make the playoffs I DONT CARE! So then we get the 4th/5th pick in the draft and pick up Aminu who will back up Azubuike at SF, draft a random PG to backup Curry as we won’t have CJ and then we’ll see how that lineup does!
Andris Biedrins | Ronny Turiaf
Amare Stoudemire | Anthony Randolph
Kelenna Azubuike | Al-Farouq Aminu
Ellis | Morrow
Curry | Random PG
PLAYOFFS!
Formally known as PFortyy.
http://www.youtube.com/user/XeroEnt
Watch my Warriors vids and subscribe!
I don’t think they do Amar’e for Maggs and expiring unless we give them our first round pick this year, which would be a very bad idea.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 1:54 PM PST up reply actions
Wow.
Best. Rumor. Ever.
Not only do we upgrade our overall talent and size, and increase the heretofore unimaginable possibility of Nellie playing two big men at the same time, but we also clear the last of our albatross contracts off the books. Where do we sign?
End of season we let Amare walk, go hard after LeBron and Bosh, and, if/when we whiff on them, fill the Amare void with Wright + Turner/Aminu/Favors/Whiteside.
Just a big WIN all around. In other words: I’m highly skeptical.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 28, 2010 1:24 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
You forgot Wesley Johnson
He’s as good as Aminu
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Aminu has more upside
Johnson is better right now though
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
It all depends
If we want someone who will be good this year right away you go with Wes, if you want to take a chance Aminu
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
+1
Just a big WIN all around. In other words: I’m highly skeptical.
This.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
Definetly skeptical,
Steve Kerr hasnt been the best gm but he isnt an idiot. Am I only person that would still dump Maggette for salary relief still?
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Hmm...
I still would, just because of the length of the deal, but it would hurt a little now.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
I think it hurts less.
Before the season started we would have had to toss in Azibuike or Turiaf at the VERY LEAST for someone to take him off our hands and even then we would probably get one short contract and one expiring. But because of Magg’s ‘inspired’ play of late, someone (Dallas for a hurt and slumping Josh Howard) might swap him straight up for a an expiring contract.
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 8:19 PM PST up reply actions
Well...
yeah. That’s the whole point. Dumping him for salary relief before the season would have been a brilliant move. Dumping him for salary relief now that he’s playing so well is a reasonably realistic option that would hurt us in the short term, but be better for the team in the long term. So yeah, it would sting a little, but I’m okay with that.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
i doubt before the season we could have gotten an expiring for Maggette.
I mean, the Warriors were desperately trying to dump his contract for anything.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:19 PM PST up reply actions
um...
that’s what would have made it a brilliant move. Am I really that hard to understand today? I thought I was clear both times… I’m probably just being lazy and expecting everyone to read my mind to get what I’m saying. Sorry.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
Haha
we all have those days
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
I understood you,
yes if we could of dumped Maggette and nothing else for expiring contracts, that would have a brilliant move as you said. I was just commenting that that would have been impossiable and we would of had to give up something of value just to negate his horrid contract. Now that he is playing very well (and our win pct would suffer if he left) we should be able to dump on his own for expiring contracts without having to toss in a draft pick or one of our young players.
Maggette has been playing well, and it should be commended that he has been staying healthy. But for his sake and ours, he should be on a winner for once before his prime is over and we don’t need his bloated contract to get us from 25 wins to 30 wins.
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 10:41 PM PST up reply actions
Gotcha...
My reading comprehension is suffering right now… must sleep soon…
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
by olympicmike on Jan 28, 2010 11:56 PM PST up reply actions
I’d definitely still consider it, at the very least… as bad as it’d look right now, it’s a no-brainer for our future.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Right,
but there is absolutley no hope for the present of even making the playoffs, so lets build for the future. If we go all in for the future, we might be relevant in 2-3 years.
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 8:22 PM PST up reply actions
yes
I was going to make a new screen name called ‘Dubs Fan in Boise’ but DFiB was already taken as intials….
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
Any deal that minimizes our financial burden in the future makes it look more and more like Cohan is getting close to selling the team. That means I’m down for any such deal.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
Maggs has been amazing this season, the Suns aren’t getting very good offers, and I suspect we’re offering a 1st round draft pick as well. Giving up Maggs and a 1st rather hurts for a mere rental. It’d hurt a lot worse, if they’re considering giving up Wright as well. We’ll have Martin and Azu at the 3 next year… unless we pick up a 3 in the draft, which would be good.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Who's Martin?
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 8:20 PM PST up reply actions
Cartier the Vacuum
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
Wow,
Cartier Martin is part of the long term plan here?
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
I hope not.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:45 PM PST up reply actions
You have to understand how bad the Suns want to get rid of Amare. Also, at this pint they are starting to get really scared they will lose him and get nothing back at the end of the season. They might make a desperation move to just get the best value they can for him.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 28, 2010 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
That was my point. They are going to make a deal if they want anything for Amare. People keep saying Maggette, Wright, etc won’t be enough, but it’s going to come down to is there a deal that is better than that out there? I don’t really see it. Maybe Luol Deng and Thomas/Gibson, etc. from the Bulls, maybe Iguodala from the Sixers to dump salary, or a trade with the Nets for young talent. Other than those scenarios, I don’t see a better offer available.
Turner/Aminu/Favors/Whiteside.????
Still making them up?
Problem is Amare is past his prime and Nellie and his “system” would break him before the month ends so we’d give up Magette who’s playing better than anyone not named Ellis for nothing? I think we just have to do nothing till Nellie leaves then put together a team to suit the new coach.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2010 11:18 PM PST up reply actions
so we’d give up Magette who’s playing better than anyonenot named Ellisfor nothing?
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
Pause
The Warrior’s fan in me wants to respond positively in all CAPs, while the reasonable side wants to smirk at this insanity. Let it be true though!
ATB1 you gotta let J Rich go.
Otherwise I’m not sure. Who will play small forward this year? But if we do get J Rich(unlikely) that COULD help
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Suns fan perspective:
Phoenix does not WANT Maggette. If this trade went down, it’d be because we’re taking Maggette’s bloated contract off your hands in return for Randolph and/or Curry (most likely “or”).
+1
As a warriors fan, i’d be willing to part with Randolph though, IF we have new ownership coming in. Whether Ellison can charm Amare into staying? Who knows, but I can tell you right now there’s a 200% better chance of that happening than it happening with cohan staying. (Then again 200% of 0% chance is still nothing :-/)
As a suns fan would Maggette, Randolph + fillers 4 Amare work?
Your one of the few W's fan willing to say that
AR is not worth losing over a rental especially if it’s to phoenix so Nash can let him become a star.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
I'm down to give you guys AR or Curry
If you guys take on Maggs. I think it would be win-win for both teams.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Now thats more like it.
Write it up and give me the pen.
by Eschew Obfuscation on Jan 28, 2010 1:39 PM PST up reply actions
I’d do that, even without an Amar’e guarantee to resign. Cohan will be on his way out!
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
That's a much more reasonable deal, and it hurts a little, which makes me thing it might happen.
But I don’t think I make it without a deal in place for Amare.
Deal in place for Amare, though, I definitely do.
Amare is the most efficient high volume scoring PF in the nba in last 10 years. And an ideal fit for NellieBall. More so he rebounds better than all our 4s and next to Biedrins it wouldn’t be an issue.
More so he rebounds better than all our 4s
He doesn’t rebound nearly as well as Randolph. He’s actually a pretty crappy rebounder for his size: 7.9 per 36 minutes last season, 8.7 this season, despite playing on a fast-paced team with no other really good rebounders.
I think he’s a pretty terrible fit for Nellieball, as, beyond the rebounding issues, he has awful handles and zero passing skills or court vision. Plus, he plays next to no defense, which while ostensibly “fitting” with Nellieball, doesn’t do much to solve perhaps our biggest problem. Just to remind: this season his assists plus steals plus blocks are roughly equal to his turnovers. Kind of an unconventional calculus, but in my book there’s simply no way you can manage that feat while simultaneously being a really good basketball player.
He’s still a very, very gifted and efficient scorer … and that’s about all. If we make the trade, it’s 95% about the expiring contract — unless maybe he gets no offers in the offseason and we’re able to re-sign him on the cheap (say $9-10M per). No way is he worth a max extension. If it came to it, I’d much rather have Maggs at 4/$40M than Stoudemire at 5/$100M or somesuch…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 28, 2010 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 6 recs
REC
I think if AR didn’t get injured and was getting 25-35 minutes a night he’d be putting up much better numbers. Also I’d rather not have Nellieball at all.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
There's little evidence to support that
Why doesn’t he play more minutes? Cause Nelson hates him? Cause Smart hates him? Nelson seems to play Curry alot. He played Webber a lot as a rookie. It has nothing to do with being young. It has to do with not being very good.
for all his ‘oooo’ and ‘aaaa’ athletic plays he’s not a very good basketball player
by tafkasam on Jan 28, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
You’re assuming that Don Nelson is a flawless judge of a player’s basketball quality, which flies pretty directly in the face of a lot that we’ve seen in the last couple years.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Jan 28, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
While he is not flawless, what are we supposed to do? He’s a basketball coach, one that a lot of people would say is good. Are we supposed to assume that we know a player that he sees all the time better than he does?
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
Are you saying that Nellie doesn’t recognize Randolph’s talents? And are you saying that this is the reason why Nellie doesn’t give AR the minutes everyone thinks he should be getting?
I think Nellie has shown an incredible amount of patience with Randolph…
- despite AR looking lost and panicky on the court.
- despite reports of AR’s attitude and humility issues holding himself back.
- despite reports of AR having trouble remembering plays or being on the wrong side of a play.
- despite his teammates yelling at him several times for messing up a play (mostly Monta).
- despite AR blatantly not following instructions and doing his job on the court (like not boxing out his man twice within a span of several possessions).
- despite teammates encouraging him to watch film during his injury (shouldn’t he be doing that without encouragement?).
Any other player that does ridiculous things like this would either be benched, traded, or sent down to the D League so they can learn how to play the game. Yet Nellie defends AR by saying that he’s “never been coached”, and that he’s “only 20”, and he even reminds Monta that AR’s only 20. And yet Nellie’s willing to spend the energy to teach AR the basics of on-court decision making and show AR how to run the point like a point guard. Why would Nellie spend all this energy on Randolph unless Nellie sees something special in AR? After all, I don’t remember Nellie doing any of this for Patrick O’Bryant.
I think Nellie sees the same freakish athletic abilities in AR that all the fans see. But Nellie also sees the rawness in AR’s brain, mind, attitude, responsibility, mental approach, discipline, awareness of his surroundings, and understanding of the game. This is the stuff that we didn’t see last season, and stuff that’s finally becoming apparent (to me, at least) this season now that AR has gotten some extensive minutes. You’ll notice that none of the items listed above have anything to do with Randolph’s physical abilities. Instead, it’s all about his brain. This is what Nellie’s working on with AR. This is why Nellie put AR at the backup center, to keep the game “simple” for AR so he can learn the basics. This is also why Nellie yanks AR out because AR keeps doing the same mistakes despite being told not to do them. This is the only way for Nellie to get the message across to AR that he screwed up royally and to teach him to be responsible for himself, like a parent grounding his kid. This is all about mental training, discipline, and maturity for AR.
by IQofaWarrior on Jan 28, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions 7 recs
But at the same time, it doesn’t reward and basically ignores the good things Randolph does do – and he does plenty of productive things on the court that offset a lot of what you just talked about…
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
to a fan yes....
To an NBA coach… he looks at it just as IQ described it…
Jan 16 2010 - Onlxn quote on Stephen Curry - "one of the worst playmakers in basketball"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 28, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
Well, I guess my point is a coach should understand the good things too, and have an idea that Randolph is contributing in a bunch of meaningful ways to help offset many of his weaknesses.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
my point is a coach should understand the good things too, and have an idea that Randolph is contributing in a bunch of meaningful ways to help offset many of his weaknesses.
Yeah, a good coach designs the game plan around his players actual strengths not around some crazy “system”. It’s the coaches job to get the best out of them not to alienate them.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2010 11:28 PM PST up reply actions
I have seen Nellie give AR the butt tap
when AR does something good and smart and is near the bench. And I think Nellie does recognize the good things that AR can do or he wouldn’t be spending so much time and energy on him.
by IQofaWarrior on Jan 29, 2010 12:46 AM PST up reply actions
All valid points
My biggest concern is that he is teaching him to be a point to much and not focusing enough on the post game. He’s very immature and needs guidance and I’m not sure Nellie is the right guy for him
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Turiaf has been a guiding factor for AR
Teaching him how to make firm decisions and staying positive and things like that. Turiaf talks a lot about AR and showing him stuff in TV and radio interviews.
by IQofaWarrior on Jan 29, 2010 4:17 AM PST up reply actions
Are you saying that Nellie doesn’t recognize Randolph’s talents? And are you saying that this is the reason why Nellie doesn’t give AR the minutes everyone thinks he should be getting?
I’m suggesting that Nellie currently overvalues certain types of contributions and undervalues other types of contributions. The things that Anthony Randolph does well — rebounding, defending the rim and getting to the line — are things that Nellie undervalues.
I think Nellie has shown an incredible amount of patience with Randolph…
- despite AR looking lost and panicky on the court.
- despite reports of AR’s attitude and humility issues holding himself back.
- despite reports of AR having trouble remembering plays or being on the wrong side of a play.
- despite his teammates yelling at him several times for messing up a play (mostly Monta).
- despite AR blatantly not following instructions and doing his job on the court (like not boxing out his man twice within a span of several possessions).
- despite teammates encouraging him to watch film during his injury (shouldn’t he be doing that without encouragement?).
This boils down to some rumors and some mistakes. I don’t put any more stock in the rumors about Randolph’s attitude than I did in the rumors about Monta’s attitude. Randolph’s never said a single inappropriate thing to the press, and he works hard every time he plays. Until there’s evidence to the contrary, I’m going to assume his attitude’s just fine. And no, a whisper campaign coming from one of the most dishonest and incompetent franchises in sports does not rise to the level of “evidence”. And, for God’s sake, Ronny tells the press he told AR his injury provided a good opportunity to watch some film without coaches yelling in his ear, and you interpret that as proof that AR has some sort of attitude problem? That doesn’t strike you as a stretch, on second glance?
Mistakes? Sure, Randolph makes a bunch of ‘em. Name the Warrior that doesn’t. Monta’s leading the universe in turnovers… Curry’s committing more fouls than any point guard has in twenty years. Why are their mistakes kosher while Randolph’s aren’t?
This whole “Nellie is teaching Randolph the right way” talking point has just gotten embarrassing. If you ignore what Nellie tells the press and actually watch the games, it’s clear that Nellie isn’t teaching anybody anything. The main reason he underplayed Randolph is the same reason he underplays Biedrins, and Turiaf, and Wright when he’s healthy. Nellie thinks smallball is a winning strategy, and as such, his smaller players get long leashes and his bigger players get short ones. Everybody on the team makes a pile of mistakes… it’s a horribly undercoached team. But the only guys that get benched for their mistakes are the big men.
People need to quit acting like Nellie is working some Yoda magic on Anthony Randolph. Randolph, mistake-prone spaz that he is, is an effective player who could’ve helped us win more games than we’ve won if allowed to play. This is not about mental training, discipline and maturity for AR… this is about a lazy, stubborn old coach at the end of the line, screwing over a good young player and a beleaguered fanbase.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Jan 28, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I can understand that, but is the fact that Randolph is an effective player enough to hold up a deal which would reduce our financial commitments? I think the #1 priority is to clear out money. We can always get talent through the draft even if it might take a while to do. While Cohan is in charge, we’re just going to keep rotating players in and out while remaining mediocre. Anything that expedites the process of selling the team should be done.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t have a problem with dealing Maggette for expiring money… I think that’s a fine idea. I just don’t think we should pay a premium, whether it’s Randolph or someone, for that expiring money to come in the form of Amar’e Stoudemire. I don’t think Amar’e would want to extend here, and I don’t really think we should want him to if he’d demand the max anyway. If that’s the case, why not try to move Maggette for a less sexy ’10 expiring contract, and keep our best young chips?
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Something like that goes against what Cohan believes in though. Cohan wants to reduce financial commitments while still selling tickets this season. Trading for Amar’e makes the most sense from his perspective, while trading one of the best players on the team for a nobody doesn’t.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
Totally agree,
if we are giving up anything of value (RT, KA, BW, AR, SC, AB, ME,) we should want him to extend. Dumping Maggs for a 2011 expiring contract would be a good move as well. That might be a better free agent class than this summer.
Thing B
Boise State, BCS Champions 2010...
by warriorsscore110 on Jan 28, 2010 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
Honestly, dumping Turiaf would have no objections from me.
I don’t find his terrible offense, terrible rebounding , lack of post defense too valuable to me.
Maggette + Turiaf for Amar’e would free up a ton of cap space.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
Your assumptions of what Don Nelson thinks and actually does...
are about as close to the truth as some of your other assumptions. To think that Nellie is trying to ‘screw over’ a young prospect talent is frankly ridiculous in my opinion…
Jan 16 2010 - Onlxn quote on Stephen Curry - "one of the worst playmakers in basketball"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 28, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
I didn’t say he was “trying” to screw Randolph over… I don’t think he’s “trying” to screw over anybody. Nellie’s not a supervillain. He’s just infatuated with a loser of a strategy, and either too stubborn, too lazy or both to deviate from it.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Jan 28, 2010 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This is pretty accurate to me.
Its funny how people forget what they see so soon.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
And, for God’s sake, Ronny tells the press he told AR his injury provided a good opportunity to watch some film without coaches yelling in his ear, and you interpret that as proof that AR has some sort of attitude problem?
For the record, this was what Ronny said from the practice interview a couple weeks ago.
He was coming into his own as far as seeing the game the right way, making the right decision, pushing the ball in transition, making the pass, and not making those funky plays that he could make. It was a pleasure to see him grow as a person. I think now, it’s going to be a time for him to sit down and just watch film and get better, even though he’s not playing the game of basketball. I think that may be the one thing he was somewhat, er, lacking of, just watching the game by himself with no coaches around him. And he’s going to have plenty of time to do that right now.
Now that I’ve refreshed myself on exactly what Ronny said, yes, I do interpret this as AR having an attitude problem, but not an attitude problem in the sense that AR doesn’t want to get better, but an attitude problem where he isn’t willing to accept that he screwed up and try to get better, like an ego problem. I do think that AR is a hard worker, and I do think that he has the right intentions about wanting to be a good player, but I also think there’s an ego problem there that’s preventing him from facing his mistakes and learning from them, from being a willing listener, and from being a “student of the game”. Turiaf’s own quote admits to AR being lacking in watching film on his own, basically, doing his homework. That responsibility falls on AR and only AR.
In fact, Turiaf’s own quote says that AR had NOT been seeing the game the right way and had NOT been making the right basic decisions like when to pass. This correlates with Nellie’s decision to make the game “simpler” for AR at the backup center spot at the beginning of the season, and this also correlates with Nellie looking for basic decision making skills out of AR in a practice interview last month around New Year’s Eve.
As for the “whisper campaign”, the reports of AR’s attitude and humility problems from earlier in the season came from players that MT2 talked to. The reports of AR’s inconsistencies and forgetting plays came last month from “insiders” that I presume MT2 trusts. So I trust that there are at least elements of truth in these reports, or else MT2 is risking his journalistic integrity as a reporter if these reports are completely false.
So when I combine Turiaf’s statements, and Nellie’s statements, and MT2’s reports, and AR’s lost, panicky, spaz-like game play that I directly see on TV, I see a person who is immature, undisciplined, irresponsible, with no intellectual understanding of the game. In other words, very raw in the brain. And once again, the fact that Nellie is willing to put up with this rawness and work with AR (instead of benching him permanently or sending him to the D League) tells me that Nellie sees something special. I’ll even go as far as saying that Nellie has made AR his personal project. If Nellie is lazy and stubborn as you say, why is he spending this much energy on AR?
If the day comes that AR tunes down his ego and becomes a willing listener and student, and understands the game, and learns to make efficient use of his freakish athleticism, he will be a scary player, possibly a SUPER scary player. But again, it all comes down to his brain.
by IQofaWarrior on Jan 29, 2010 5:17 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
So Randolph hasn’t been watching film on his own. Is this something that other Warriors do routinely? Does Monta? Does Curry? Is watching film on one’s own something Warriors are even able to do routinely? Is there a team culture of watching film on one’s own that Randolph has been violating? What is the context here by which you’re interpreting this as a failure of Randolph’s, rather than a simple logistical issue?
You’ve again presented a laundry list of proof that Anthony Randolph makes a lot of mistakes, something I’ve already acknowledged. Shall I walk through a list of reasons why Monta Ellis is the least effective star in basketball, thanks in large part to a host of mistakes he makes? Shall I walk through the litany of mistakes on both ends of the ball that Stephen Curry, who’s older than Anthony Randolph, routlnely makes? By most metrics, Anthony Randolph has outplayed both of those guys on the year — if we’re going to rake someone over the coals for their mistakes, why should he be first in line?
Every Warrior, young and old, makes tons of mistakes… it’s an undercoached team. But you’re suggesting that there’s something troubling and sinister about Randolph’s mistakes, as opposed to those of the other players. This seems to be based on 1) a report that players felt that Randolph didn’t have his head on straight at the beginning of the year, and 2) the way Randolph looks when he plays.
Now, it’s very possible that Randolph came into the season with an inflated ego, thanks in large part to the organization’s efforts to promote him as a future superstar. I didn’t have a problem with Nellie sitting on him early. But by mid-November, Randolph was playing well — extremely well, in fact — and since then there has not been even a single whisper about an attitude issue. Nellie continued to underplay him.
How is Randolph supposed to earn playing time other than by playing well, exactly? Even factoring in his mistakes, for most of his season, he was outproducing just about everybody on the team. If working hard and outplaying your teammates doesn’t get you a sustained opportunity, what does?
You seem to take umbrage at how goofy/out of control/etc Randolph looks when he plays. I would suggest that there is exactly zero predictive value in this. Firstly, most human beings that are 6’10", 205 are going to look a little awkward. Secondly, Corey Maggette looks like a goofball on many of his offensive sequences… the goofball act gets him to the line a lot, though, and consequently he’s one of the most effective players in the league. Randolph gets to the line a lot for a young player, and his spastic defense helps him guard our rim better than any Warrior.
Stephen Curry looks cool as a cucumber out there. He also makes a ton of mistakes… he’s been one of the least effective point guards in the league, and he commits more fouls than most centers. Who would you rather have, the goofy-looking guy who’s effective, or the savvy-looking guy who’s not?
And once again, the fact that Nellie is willing to put up with this rawness and work with AR (instead of benching him permanently or sending him to the D League) tells me that Nellie sees something special.
For God’s sake, the D-League?! Anthony Randolph has been one of our best players this season.
Brandon Jennings’s ice-cold shooting has been hurting the Bucks far more than any of Randolph’s mistakes have hurt us… do you hear them asking for credit for not sending the kid to the minors? No. Because the Bucks realize that Jennings is 1) bound to make a lot of mistakes, given his age, and 2) even given the mistakes, an asset to their team. Just like Anthony Randolph.
If Nellie is lazy and stubborn as you say, why is he spending this much energy on AR?
What energy? Any strategic decision that simplifies plays for Randolph, by definition, reduces the amount of teaching Nellie has to do. Every single decision Nellie’s made in the last two years has been of this stripe: do whatever you can do to make the team run on autopilot, so he doesn’t have to do anything. Randolph’s having trouble getting the plays down at the four? Screw it, we’ll make it a five. He’s making offensive mistakes? Fine, we’ll have him handle the ball. Still making the occasional mistake? Forget it, then — sit him, and play the little guys. Even if they screw up, at least they’re little.
These stories just don’t add up. It is well-known and well-reported, by MTII, Steinmetz and others, that Nellie does less work than just about every other head coach in the game. And there is no evidence — none — of him having spent a lot of energy on Anthony Randolph. No evidence of him putting in the kind of time-intensive, sustained coaching work that some raw young players need. In fact, every Randolph-related decision he’s made has been in the exact opposite direction… towards reducing the number of daily headaches Nellie has to deal with, no matter how much it hurts the team. It’s a testament to Don Nelson’s apathy that he acts miffed that he has to coach Anthony Randolph, a prospect that 29 other teams would kill for.
This emperor has no clothes. Don Nelson does not have a vision for Anthony Randolph, or for any other player on the team. He sits Randolph for the same reason that he tries to keep Monta on the court at all times, for the same reason that he gave Jamal Crawford 40 minutes a game last year, for the same reason that he won’t junk this failed smallball strategy and put energy into a new one. Path of least resistance, pure and simple… whatever allows him to do as little work as possible and still collect a paycheck. And if Warriors fans are okay with that, fine. But let’s not let it color our perceptions of a 20-year-old who’s played very well whenever given the chance.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Jan 29, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He's 20 years old and Curry is 23
Development wise CUrry and Webber were and are much farther along. Nelly has changed a lot since the early 90’s. There is usually no rhyme or reason to take out AR. Why do it? For a better shot at the playoffs? Also numerous times AR would put together a brilliant string of plays and spark us for big runs and then be benched and guess what happens when he is benched? We don’t play as well when he is randomly taken out.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Curry is 21
And so what? Webber was 20 when he came into the league. They are farther along? What has ever suggest Randolph will ‘get there’ he is beyond raw. He rebounds well, thats about it.
Also everything Randolph has started he’s gotten eaten alive. If you notice his best minutes came @ back up 5 when he was a mismatch for other teams cause of speed.
I don’t hate Randolph but if you said I could have Amare for him I’d say yes. I’d probably trade him for Carl Landry TBH.
What?!
AR also is a decent scorer despite having a non existent game, a geat shot blocker and can handle the ball and pass pretty well. Also yes Webber was much farther along in his development then AR is now. Are you suggesting that he is also a better 5 when he is 220 lbs?
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
yes I am suggesting he's a better 5 and fact's back it
statistically he produces at a higher level @ 5 cause of less responsibility/mismatch. It just speaks to how raw he is.
While you can say he is less developed, theirs nothing to suggest a guy with LITTLE BASKETBALL SKILLS will develop
You sound like Nelly
He played great 4 before getting injured. Little basketball skills? You sir are now ridiculous.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
You know that the facts backed up Maggette being a better 4 for a while too?
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 3:12 PM PST up reply actions
yes
but it doesn’t mean he’s a better 4 than Amare
That's not the point I was making.
Wasn’t talking about Amar’e, just Randolph.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 5:39 PM PST up reply actions
Randolph this year is giving up a gaudy 26.8 PER when he plays PF compared to Amare’s 20.6
amare also has a 24.1 PER and Randolph is a 17.2…..
You tell me how Randolph is a better defender. Better defender or cool highlight real weakside blocks?????
by tafkasam on Jan 28, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
So you’re happy to defend the idea that our best defender is Corey Maggette?
Positional opponent stats are worthlessly noisy in general. In addition, all of our bigs have artificially poor positional opponent stats, because they’ve been so busy bailing out the rest of our undersized smallball lineups that their men have gotten a ton of easy feeds and putbacks. That data is worthless.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Jan 28, 2010 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Your forgetting the point
AR has “potential” to be a great defender. Amare has always been a bad defender and is only declining. That alone is enough for me to want AR in the future rather than Amare.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
He's not going to learn to be a good defender with Nellie as his coach.
Same problem with Amare. Amare works very hard on his game, but he hasn’t ever had a coach who taught him to play and enjoy playing defense.
Also everything Randolph has started he’s gotten eaten alive.
Did last season never happen?
The idea that “starters eat Randolph alive” is a complete fiction, invented by Nellie and echoed by his apologists. Randolph, mistakes and all, has played well in his young NBA career, and he’s played better when given the chance to start. You’re not remembering the guy very clearly.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Dude, give it a rest with the Webber claim.
It’s not as if EVERY guy that comes into the league learns at the same curve. Let the history be history and focus on what we see and read.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Randolph is below average efficiency for a PF/C. And his assists to turn overs? I think thats pretty irrelevant stat for Amare when you score as efficiently at he does while taking such a high volume of shots. You point out his 7.9 last year. Last year he played net to shaq who clogged up the paint. His career is 9.3 and though it’s a little down this year, theres no reason he can’t return to it.
His is such an offensive threat it counterbalances his defensive deficiency because he simply scores more efficiently, unlike Randolph who is by no means a good defender either, nor a good offensive player.
by tafkasam on Jan 28, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Amare's rebounding won't get any better with age
Especially when he can’t rebound this Suns team. Also I wouldn’t call AR a center in any sense of the word, efficiency will go up when he gets older since he is ONLY 20. So I guess cause Kevin Martin is efficient that makes up for his no rebounding,passing,defense or helps the team? We all know you don’t like AR too well but at least look at Amare in an honest way. I’d rather take a shot on AR.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
But they are a similar comparison none the less
Amare is only good or famous cause of Nash. If he played here we would all be whining about why we gave up AR for him.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Myth
Amare’s stats r almost identical with or without Nash. Look it up
But his play is much worse
Nash makes him who he is and ever was.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Kenyon Martin is a PF, so yes, he does.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 3:26 PM PST up reply actions
EVERYONE
KMart=Kenyon Martin, not Kevin Martin
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
Look up ^
This is how dubzfan started the conversation. “So I guess cause Kevin Martin is efficient that makes up for his no rebounding,passing,defense or helps the team?” Tafkasam confused him with K-Mart.
by San Francisco Slim on Jan 28, 2010 4:56 PM PST up reply actions
If you press the “up” button on my comment, you’ll find I was responding to tafkasam’s K Mart reference.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
Oh I know
I saw that. I’m just kinda pointing that out for everyone who uses KMart to mean Kevin Martin.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
I do hate the first name initial, first few letters of the last name style nickname, but at least in Kenyon Martin’s case, K Mart is more than that. I also hate recycling nicknames. To recycle a nickname when the original is still in the league, though? That’s so absurd I have no words to describe it. K Mart = Kenyon Martin. That’s it. No one else can be called K Mart. This is the second time recently I’ve seen it happen. Grrrrr…..
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:26 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, if Kenyon Martin played 20 years ago, no biggy.
LT for Lawrence Taylor and LaDainian Tomlinson=okay.
KMart for Kenyon Martin and Kevin Martin=not okay
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 8:55 PM PST up reply actions
Passing is totally relevant. Amar’e can command double teams, but he can’t pass out of them effectively. That alone makes him not worth max money, and that’s before you get into his defense. And when a guy’s rebounding gets worse to the degree that his has, it’s usually not random… it usually means trouble.
A question: why would Amar’e’s efficient volume scoring make a big difference for us if Maggette’s isn’t?
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
because Corey did it at this rate for 20 games (all of which we were in and if had a healthy roster would have won alot of )
Amare has done it for what… 8 yearS?
Maggs has always been very efficient
This isn’t anything new.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Randolph is below average efficiency for a PF/C.
I don’t recall discussing Randolph’s efficiency. As long as you’re discussing it, you might note that he’s 20 years old and improving.
And his assists to turn overs? I think thats pretty irrelevant stat for Amare
Assists and turnovers, like rebounds, are totally relevant, to all basketball players. Amare isn’t exempt ‘cos he can score efficently, any more than Maggette is. For what it’s worth, this season Maggs is scoring at a higher volume and more efficiently than Amare.
His is such an offensive threat it counterbalances his defensive deficiency
Agreed with this, though “counterbalance” is not the same as “negate.”
unlike Randolph who is by no means a good defender either, nor a good offensive player.
Randolph, while no stopper, is patently a much more active and willing defender than Amare, with much more potential for growth in this area. He’s also better at passing and taking the care of the ball, despite looking like a total clownshoes a lot of the time. Throw in the rebounding edge and the fact that he’s 20 years old, improving, and cheap, and I don’t really see how Randolph v. Amare is even a question.
If Amare’s expiring contract gives us a semi-real shot at LeBron or Bosh … now that’s a different, more interesting question.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 28, 2010 3:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Assists and turnovers, like rebounds, are totally relevant, to all basketball players. Amare isn’t exempt ‘cos he can score efficently, any more than Maggette is. For what it’s worth, this season Maggs is scoring at a higher volume and more efficiently than Amare.
Why would you care about a guys assist turn over when him taking the shot is the most efficient shot? Sure it’d be awesome if Amare was the 2002 version of Garnett and Webber putting up 20/10/5 a night, but hey if he can score 20 every night at 60+ TS% I’ll take it!
I’ll readily admit, i don’t really value Randolph the way most of you do. I think his value>his actual potential. And if trading him to get a player like Amare who is not a perfect PF, but the best one Warriors fans have seen since Webber. I do it. More so if Ellison buying the team means we can keep him.
Finally if we can do it without giving up Biedrins and Turiaf and Wright?! Sign me up. That’s some front court size I don’t thin I’ve ever seen in GSW.
I take it back, the Adonal, Murphy, Cardinal years had size…. but it wasn’t exactly as effective of size.
I like the idea of JRich coming too (if only because I can pull my jersey out of retirement). but Curry, Monta, JRich, Amare, Biedrins (w/ buike, Morrow, BWright, Turiaf) thats a playoff team….. we got inside scoring, slashers and LOTS of 3 point shooting
Why would you care about a guys assist turn over when him taking the shot is the most efficient shot?
Ball movement, flow, ability to set up others to set yourself up, etc. Thats a good looking team and I’d like JRich if we lost Maggs. In fact if we wanted to cut salaries bad JRich for Maggs could be nice. We’d be losing some things like rebounding and great efficiency but when your trying to cut salaries it’s not that bad.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Ball movement, flow, ability to set up others to set yourself up, etc. T
I see what you’re saying but Amare isn’t handling ball or touching it on perimter the way maggette would (thus his need to have better passing) Amare is getting it on a cut to hoop, pick and roll, and in the post etc. Opportunities to finish mostly.
Like I said, it’d be a plus if he could pass like Webber or Garnett. But it’s not necessary for how ridiculous he finishes.
Basically if you’re telling me we can add Amare w/o giving up Biedrins, Monta or Curry… I’m in
Amare > Beans
If there is one spot we need badly it’s center. Beans is fine if we can’t get an upgrade, that’s just more pressure for the wings. I want AR here and I’d rather have Amare than Beans. AR can make up the rebounding problems along with an improved Wright.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
You want to replace Beans with Amare ...
… and how, exactly is this team going to get any rebounds?
Amare is much better offensively than Beans. Unfortunately, that’s not this team’s problem. You take Beans out and we don’t have anybody who’s an above-average rebounder at their position.
besides randolph and wright
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
Brandan Wright is 8.7 RPG/36
that doesn’t seem particularly above average for a PF.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 12:50 AM PST up reply actions
For all players primarily listed as a PF last year (note: this is what they’re listed as, not necessarily where they were playing, as many wind up being defacto centers much of the time), it was slightly above the per-minute rate. For whatever reason, last year rebounding was slightly down by big men, and Wright followed that trend, so it’s not entirely representative. But it’s not like he’s an abysmal rebounder. He’s average-ish.
The thing about Wright is that he’s an above average offensive rebounder, but below average on the defensive boards. Individual mindset? Just the way he moves following a shot by himself or a teammate? Stuck glued to the floor trying to react to the opposition on defense? Tough to say.
I imagine his lack of strength trying to box his guy out cancels out a lot of his length/athleticism, but on the offensive glass he can just go and get the ball, and use that length and athleticism to go after it without having to keep someone off the glass. Just a guess, though.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Tafkasam, I don’t think you meant to include Cardinal as a good rebounder in the Musselman era Warriors. The person you omitted was Dampier. Yes, Dampier, Murphy, Foyle, when, believe it or not, the Warriors were actually a good rebounding team!
BTW, I generally agree with your Randolph/Stoudemire argument. Including Randolph in any trade, involves a risk, because he may become a very good player. So, in analyzing the risk/reward of trading Randoplh in order to acquire Stoudemire, one has to weigh Randolph’s potential vs. the current reward of Stoudemire.
One thing that gets lost in the argument, but was pointed out by the Suns blogger, is that the Warriors aren’t necessarily going to offer Stoudemire a max contract and they stand a chance of not signing him. In that case they traded Randolph in order to get rid of Magette’s contract and that may or may not be worth it, as well.
But bottom line, Randolph is not a good player now, and the argument involes what are the chances of him becoming a good player or better? A star or superstar has to have four things in my opinion – outstanding physical talent, basketball smarts, competitiveness and a good attitude. I think Randolph has the talent and competitiveness, but he doesn’t seem to have the other two. There have been lots of players like him who have not made an impact on the league. I’m not saying he will or won’t make an impact on the league in the future, I’m just saying it’s an unknown.
by San Francisco Slim on Jan 28, 2010 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
Good points
But losing a potential star to unload a very productive players contract is one of the worst things we can do. Your right about how to be a star butt attitude can be argued. It’s very important but players like a young Kobe, Boozer, Amare, sometimes Lebron (shaking hands and other snobby things), young Pierce etc. Players can still be good with a bad attitude but that doesn’t make it right.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
I think you might be confusing arrogance with attitude. Lebron and Kobe are arrogant (Kobe, more so, IMO), but they have a great attitude towards playing basketball. They will do anything to make themselves better players and to make their team better at winning.
by San Francisco Slim on Jan 28, 2010 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
I think you need to have a certain type of arrogance to be a great player. You need to think you are good enough to make any shot you take, that you can guard anyone, that you can take that last shot, etc. Look at Micheal Jordan. He could be considered an arrogant jerk by some, but there is no denying that if he didn’t have that arrogance and drive, that we would never have seen the greatness that he became ( cut from his HS Basketball team) .
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:39 PM PST up reply actions
cut from his HS Basketball team
Because I like crushing people’s dreams and spirits, I’ll set the record straight on this story, because I’ve heard many versions of it and most are wrong and exaggerated. Michael Jordan did not make the Varsity team as a freshman. He had to settle for being the star on JV for a year before getting 3 years at the Varsity level. One of the reasons it was such a big deal was because one of his good friends made Varsity when they were freshmen (I forget who it was, I think they might have played together at UNC, too), and he didn’t. So that’s the real story.
And yeah, Jordan really was an arrogant jerk. Some of the stories about him are pretty ridiculous. Like you said though, it probably was a big factor in his drive to become the greatest of all time.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 8:47 PM PST up reply actions
"Randolph is not a good player now"
His WP48 is .117, which makes him above average.
I suspect that’s largely because of his outstanding rebounding, and I can understand why people want a 4 with more offensive oomph to play next to Biedrins.
But rebounding is probably this team’s biggest weakness, and Randolph is very very good at it. We should think twice about trading him for more offense.
Ok WP way ovearates rebounding though
but rebounding is still very important.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
Ok WP way ovearates rebounding though
Maybe you just underrate rebounding? If forced to choose between your personal scale of the importance of certain types of on court production and WP, I’ll go with the stat that correlates well with winning basketball games. Not to say you don’t have a pretty wicked scale, but I doubt you’d do as well at predicting NBA records as WP has in the past. ; )
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
by olympicmike on Jan 29, 2010 12:06 AM PST up reply actions
There’s good reason to think WP may overrate rebounding. Some people suspect there’s some omitted variable bias between rebounding and unmeasured defensive factors (so rebounding will correlate with these unmeasured factors) that would lead to the regression coefficient being artificially high…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If it over-rates rebounding, would this not show in greater variance between actual wins and projected wins by the formula? Would the predictions not break down considerably when a player changes teams (bringing rebounding?
I suspect there are additional variables. But the predictions are reasonably good, better than you’d expect if rebounds were actually over-rated.
I’m not sure if it would or wouldn’t. It’s all relative – if the variance is 3 wins, is that good, does it indicate the model is good? Is it bad? If the variance is 5 wins, would that be good or bad? Would one player changing teams make enough difference on the omitted variables to show up in a significant way, assuming those variables are messing with the coefficient? Maybe there’s too much noise to isolate these effects on players changing teams. I have no idea, plus I’m not really knowledgeable enough about this specific subject to get in depth about it.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
Quick question...
Some people suspect there’s some omitted variable bias between rebounding and unmeasured defensive factors (so rebounding will correlate with these unmeasured factors) that would lead to the regression coefficient being artificially high…
This is admittedly waaaay outside of my wheelhouse. If those supposed unmeasured defensive factors correlate well enough with rebounding not to effect the formula’s predictive value all that much then, practically speaking, is there really a good reason to care?
We all know there are exceptions to the reliability of WP (cough, Troy Murphy, cough) so I can see why it would be great if there was a way to refine the stat, but I think given the limitations in the box score that it does about as good of a job as you can. Defense is very hard to quantify statistically, which is why we all know it’s important to actually watch these guys play. Having said that, I think you could build a pretty good team using WP as your primary talent evaluation tool.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
by olympicmike on Jan 29, 2010 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve found that it’s rather useful in identifying the superficially “good” players who are popular, put up big numbers, but for some reason seem to do this in losing causes often and rarely if ever seem to improve their team (e.g. Jamal Crawford, Allen Iverson, and, unfortunately this year, Monta). When your big point scorers have low WP numbers, your team is rarely any good (exception perhaps in the superb defensive clubs like the early 2000s 6ers, who had above average defenders at 4 positions on the court at almost times, and played in the east when it really was the least). They tend to get hyped and they tend to disappoint in the standings. Identifying the guys who get great wp numbers but seem not to actually improve a lineup? Not so much, but again, there aren’t too many Troy Murphys.
Well, from a technical/statistical standpoint, I think I have the knowledge to answer that question, but from a subject standpoint, I honestly don’t know enough about how well win shares actually performs and divides credit among individuals to have any idea. I just don’t know all that much about basketball stats.
I also don’t really have the motivation to learn more. I know what wins games on the team level – offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency, turnovers and rebounds. So, I think it’s easy enough to check guys out by their stats (assists, scoring efficiency, scoring volume, turnovers) to see what kind of offensive player they are, rebounds to see that, and then a combination of blocks, steals, and observation to see their defense…and it seems pretty easy to get a good idea of how productive players are from that to me…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
I honestly don’t know enough about how well win shares actually performs and divides credit among individuals to have any idea.
Just to be clear, I was talking about Wins Produced which is an entirely different stat than Win Shares. I believe that Win Shares actually uses a teams record as part of the formula for the stat, where WP uses a combination of traditional stats which are weighted for their correlation to winning.
I know what wins games on the team level – offensive efficiency, defensive efficiency, turnovers and rebounds. So, I think it’s easy enough to check guys out by their stats (assists, scoring efficiency, scoring volume, turnovers) to see what kind of offensive player they are, rebounds to see that, and then a combination of blocks, steals, and observation to see their defense…and it seems pretty easy to get a good idea of how productive players are from that to me…
A big +1 to this. As much as I find WP and some other advanced stats interesting I almost always look at per 36 numbers and TS% when trying to make a quick evaluation. That usually gives me a pretty good idea of a guys strengths and weaknesses.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
exactly...
my point is Randolph is a LONG while away from being an offensive force (if ever, and i doubt he ever will be Amare good offensively). We know what Biedrins and turiaf are. BWright is an x factor but lets get him healthy for a year or 2 before we count on much out of him. Any big with a post game (however simple Amare’s MAY be, it is effective) will infinitely increase our teams production.
Offensively we are not as good as people seem to think. Yes the Warriors score a lot, but our pace adjusted offensive rating is 19th in NBA. If healthy, I’m sure it’d be probably somewhere between 10-15, still not great considering our defensive deficiencies. Compare that with 2007-8 “we believe” team who was 4th.
Like I’ve said, Amare is NOT my dream player, but he is still a very good PF who does certain things at an elite level and would make out infinitely better. Giving up Corey Maggette (i like, but a bit of an albatross of a contract and while we’d have to pay Amare more, he’s produced miles more than Maggette over the years) and a young potential player (who has yet to prove anything) is fair
just for reference
our defensive rating is 25th in NBA. Phoenix is 29, Toronto is 30. So ….
a) while Bosh is a better defender than Amare, is he that significantly a better one?
b) Something to be said for Nellie not being as awful as many make him out to be. Considering injuries and lineups we put on regularly
Well, at least with Bosh, having Turkoglu, Bargnani, Jack, Calderon, DeRozan as your teammates (those are the 5 players with the most minutes besides Bosh) will do that to you…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
yack.
Terrible for the Warriors. I’m not willing to gift wrap Randolph to a DIVISION FOE, just to see Stoudemire walk or not live up to expectations.
Besides, Riley has said that He wouldn’t want to give up an asset they like for an unsigned star. So there’s that—-unless they changed their mind again.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Why do we need to get rid of so many players that could help us
For a player that’’s a shell of his former self.
I wouldn’t mind trading Bell, CJ, and Speedy for J-Rich but no way am I going to give up half our roster for a guy that will only be a rental. Plus, he’s a lazy defender.
He's not really a shell of his former self.
He’s changed his game a bit. He still averages 20/8, which certainly ain’t bad. I’ll give you the lazy defender, though. Not like Golden State’s thang is defense, though.
Another pointless trade ....
On one hand we lose maggette’s horrible contract, and a player who will never be better than a 3rd option on a championship caliber team, to land a player who on one side is a perfect fit for Golden state since he hates defense and hustling, and on the flipside has a 99.99% chance of opting out … seriously !!! if this trade were to go down or not happen at all, would there be a difference next season ??? no, we will still suck !!! We would either lose even more valuable players or still be an average sucky team !!
On one hand we lose maggette’s horrible contract, and a player who will never be better than a 3rd option on a championship caliber team
How horrible do you think his contract is, exactly? Sure, I think Maggette’s a bit overpaid, but it’s not like he’s being paid like a superstar, or even close. He kind of IS paid like a 3rd option on a championship caliber team…
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, if you look at Maggette’s contract alone it may not seem that bad, especially when you look at other ones around the league, however, it has 4 years remaining, and 10 million on a team that will barely be below the luxury tax, is a lot of money … Plus Maggette is in his prime right now and will never be anything more than a one dimensional player … his best value is in a trade but since we don’t seem to do anything intelligent with our trades, what’s the point ?
by NIC26WARRIORS on Jan 28, 2010 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
Ok, I’m more in that camp – that Maggette doesn’t make sense for our team, though I don’t think he has much trade value because, like I said, he’s overpaid. We’re not in danger of going into luxury tax land, by the way. With Maggette we’re really just not able to get under the cap at all.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions
I guess
but to a playoff contender looking at this year and next, i doubt they care about the last year of the deal. Heck, it can be considered a large expiring deal by then.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:41 PM PST up reply actions
You just made my point
2 years plus 1 is not so bad. Add another after that , you’re wasting 10 million.
That last trade is beautiful.
Then Ellison gives Amar’e a nice contract and we’ve got Ellis, Stoudemire, and Biedrins locked up for years with Curry. That would be so pretty.
I miss Richardson so very much…so very much.
I miss Richardson so very much…so very much.
I miss him a whole lot too. But honestly, do any of you think Monta would’ve became the player he is today if we kept Richardson and he came off the bench behind JRich all these years? Do you think he would’ve shot 60% FG in Feb 2008 backing up JRich that whole time? Monta would’ve ended up alot weaker than he is today if JRich stayed. Although I love his loyalty and passion for Golden State and he is FOREVER a Warrior no matter what uniform he puts on.
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
by JustSomeName on Jan 28, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
Completely true.
We would have never seen Monta Ellis develop into the player (or part of a player depending on his ankles) that he is today. There is no way he would have developed into that. However, if they were big on doing that, the way we run, they could have kept Richardson at the SF spot (which that line-up would be explosive).
Whenever Richardson comes back to Oracle …I get tears. Quite odd, but he might be my favorite Warrior of all time.
we could have always dumped jack instead :-/
Would have been wiser move. But hey let’s stick w/ guy with gun totting, fan fighting past over franchise fan favorite
Suns would never do it unless we threw in Randolph, and throwing in Randolph makes it not worth it to us. On top of that, ESPN lists six possible trade destinations for Amar’e… the Warriors ain’t one of them. I’m not seeing any smoke behind this fire.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Well GSW isn't a likely destination unless they're really looking to sell to Ellison.
That’s the only scenario in which an Amare trade can become reality.
If we can do this...
without giving up Randolph – I’ll be all for it -
and if we can get Ellison to buy this team from that pathetic Cohen guy – this team would turn around in a year or two – get some good recognition around the NBA – get some Super-star caliber players in – Playoffs!! – WE BELIEVE AGAIN!!
and by the way – at this point – whats the worst that can happen?
Stoudemire
Acquiring him only makes sense if he’s going to re-sign. If he’s going to re-sign, I’m on board for trading anybody except for Ellis, Curry and Randolph. He’s not a good rebounder for his size and should block more shots, but having that presence down low is just a huge boost.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 28, 2010 2:53 PM PST reply actions
Those are kind of like the only three guys we'd want haha.
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Understandable
Maybe that would be different if Brandan Wright and Kelenna Azubuike weren’t injured.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 28, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
Hm
Which one of those are Andris Biedrins, Corey Maggette, Ronny Turiaf, Anthony Morrow and C.J. Watson?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 28, 2010 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
Don't get me wrong, I do like Biedrins
But Lopez’s recent development almost negates the need these days. Turiaf’s a good hustle player, but he’s not the centerpiece of a trade.
Turiaf
Yeah, I said he needed to be the centerpiece of this trade.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 28, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
I didn't say you said that.
just saying, in that whole group of guys you listed, none of them is a piece I’d consider worth trading for. They’re all throw-ins, except Biedrins, but our need for a guy like Biedrins isn’t really there anymore.
Acquiring him only makes sense if he’s going to re-sign.
That’s generally my mentality, too, but if we only have to give up Corey Maggette….well, that changes things.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 3:27 PM PST up reply actions
Maggette, Wright, expirings, and a the Warriors 2011 first rounder for Amare and J-Rich
Sounds like a pretty fair deal to me if Amare re-signs. They get Maggette(we know what he can do), Wright(potential double-double machine and all star, who definitley could replace the majority of Amares production, and be a better rebounder than Amare. I say he’s a potential 16-20 ppg and 10 reb guy if he plays starter minutes. Remember they said he was the best player in training camp), the 2011 first rounder (could end up being a lottery pick), and a bunch of expirings to free up cap space. I really don’t see the Suns getting a better deal than that. Bulls won’t give them equal value, the Nets and T’Wolves wouldn’t be able to give them a proven player(Jefferson for Amare does’t make sense and was already visited), same with all the rest of the teams that are interested in Amare.
That's what you say
but if that were the case, then the deal would have been ade over the summer. So I think those guys are off the table.
Exactly
so we agree that this deal probably won’t happen unless the Suns panic and cave in, which would not be surprising becuase they won’t get a better deal than Maggette, Wright, and a future first rounder.
It's not likely to happen, I agree.
Panic won’t play a part if it does. It’ll happen if the Warriors do appear to be getting sold and Golden State really wants to unload some bad contracts, with Maggettes’ being the worst.
The Suns have plenty of other panic trades that don’t involve taking on $10m/year for another 3 years.
Hell, we could take the Nets trade
Then we’d at least be taking on expirings, young talent, and a pick, rather than being stuck with mediocre prospects and a large, long cap space-jamming contract like Maggette’s.
I'm pretty sure it was the Warriors that didn't do the deal over the summer.
Nellie was so taken with Curry.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
Doesn't matter ... the point was Curry was the dealbreaker.
GSW didn’t want to do it with Curry and Suns didn’t want to do it without Curry.
You're right, Curry was the dealbreaker
It wasn’t that the Suns wanted Curry, it was that the Warriors didn’t think they were gonna get Curry.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
Both!
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
As I understand it, it was just going to be a draft pick, and not Stephen Curry.
When Curry fell to the Warriors, they weren’t willing to give up their pick for Amar’e.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
I actually don't buy that
I Think Riley was taken by curry and upper management
Steve Kerr? Is that you?
"Monta is the MAN." -Bob Fitzgerald
by WarriorForLife on Jan 28, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
but wright has no value
cause of health. I prefer we keep him cause i think Wright>Randolph. Consequently Randolph is viewed as a commodity to other teams.
To get an all star like Amare will take Curry or Randolph.
huge difference
Amare has a history of being an all star and while he only played 53 last year, i don’t think he’s missed any time this year and played plenty of full seasons showing his ability. Wright has not
We can’t trade next year’s first rounder because we gave away our 2012 pick and you can’t trade consecutive first rounders.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 3:11 PM PST up reply actions
we need a high flyer
i like this trade but only if we get jrich we need guys who can go hard at the rim …. other than that i hope we get a true SF like Rudy Gay or Caron Butler someone whos an upgrade from getty
JRich isn’t much of a penetrator (not quick enough or enough of a ballhandler) and while he can jump, he’s not really the smooth athlete that can jump off one foot in the middle of a crowd to get to the rim.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
Only Corey Maggette for Amare Stoudemire?
Seems too good to be true.
Sounds more like Bright Side of the Sun having a wet dream than a real trade idea.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 28, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
Not only :)
Steve Nash, the league's MVP, is a longhaired Canadian who spoke out against the war in Iraq and reads The Communist Manifesto. Quentin Richardson declared after a game-winning shot that it "was like Hamlet. It was a suspense thriller, and I killed them at the end." Amare Stoudemire, when asked to comment on a 22-point third quarter against the Kings, said, "I've got a tendency to jump over some guys' heads and throw it down."
Is there a maybe option?
I know you all want Maggette gone because of his contract and his style of play…but think of it.
If Amare comes here and leaves next season,we will get some money but it’s not like we’re going to pick up any grand prize.
Also Amare won’t resign with us,even if he did,he’s not worth it anymore.
Corey Maggette is an important piece to this team believe it or not.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Jan 28, 2010 3:33 PM PST reply actions
Corey Maggette is an important piece to this team believe it or not.
Maybe, but he’s not part of this team’s future, and he’s overpaid right now. As we get better and our younger players improve, Corey is only going to get worse, and as we start to contend for a playoff spot, Corey’s going to be worse and his contract is going to be a burden. He isn’t a fit for this team long term, regardless of what he’s doing now.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
When was Maggs ever a top tier player....
other than this year, he has been overpaid & is not someone you build around long term. He is a guy who you add to a championship/playoff caliber team & not someone you build around.
Maggette has been what in Golden State
One plus seasons and last year he was injured for much of it. He was supposed to be part of the team. Right now he’s playing the best basketball of his career and the Warriors definitely could use Maggette.
He can do something that that Ellis and Curry cannot do and that is draw fouls and get to the free throw line plenty of times per game.
How long do you think it will last?
The rest of his contract? Not a chance.
He needs to go, his game regardless of stats HURTS THIS TEAM when the team is healthy.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
still doesn't mean you build around him...
you are talking about Maggs like he is a 1st tier star, when at best he is a mid 2nd tier star…Just look at the flexibility you would be adding salary wise (regardless if the FO uses it or not)
The rumor I'm hearing here in Phoenix
Is: Amare (and someone else) to Miami, for O’neil and a couple young players (like Chalmers).
I haven’t heard the Amare for Maggs rumor here at all.
My problem with trading Maggs to Phoenix is that the Warriors will have to play against the guy.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
Gambler's alert.
Suns are playing on TNT tonight
They have lost their last 18 TNT games.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
If its Amare for Maggs + expirings...Just pull the trigger..
Its a win-win for all involved…The current FO isn’t committed to winning so if anything they at least get the money off the books. We as fans get to see how Amare woulda looked in a dubs uni and if he doesn’t resign ohh well. There is less money on the books and thus making a buy out by LE way more enticing…
The thing is, it won’t be just for Maggs + expirings. That isn’t a win-win because the Suns lose. They take on a long contract while decreasing their talent level. The deal only makes sense if we include our pick or someone like Randolph. It then becomes a situation where we win if Randolph never gets any better or the Suns win if Randolph becomes really good.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, I'm basing my comment on Maggs + plus expirings & that's it...
If other talent is involved then no-dice & def. not a win-win…
ohh and I meant win-win in the favor of the dubs...
in terms of dumping salary & the ability to say they traded for someone…Now way its a win-win for the suns…
Win-Win means it's good for both parties
not that it’s good in a number of ways for one of them.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
Why would the Warriors want Stoudemire
He doesn’t rebound well even with the athleticism and let’s not even get started on Stoudemire’s defense!
I think the trade would only be for a salary dump...
plain and simple way to get rid of money, not take the PR hit if he doesn’t resign & blame the player for not resigning when he opts out…Win/Win for a crappy FO..
Who on this team rebounds or plays defense anyway? cmon now.
Fact is Biedrins/Amare frontcourt should be able to rebound fair enough.
This is hilarious. So comical.
Atma suggests Amare for Maggette/George/Claxton?? ha ha ha. Or even Amare/Jrich for Maggs/Wright/Watson/Claxton/George/Bell ha ha ha.
The only thing to question is what deal does PHX get more abused on. So PHX is gonna give up 2 of their top 3 guys for Maggette and the hopes of Wright turning into something? Not gonna happen.
Knock Stoudemire all you want but the fact is he is a All Star starting PF. Phx is not going to give him up unless Curry or Randolph is in the package.
Phx’s FO would have to be as dumb or worse then ours if they accept any of those two deals.
This is plain wrong. If Phoenix doesn’t trade Amare he will just walk at the end of the year. And all the other teams know this. It would take the stupidest FO ever to trade a player like AR or Curry for Amare right now (unless he agreed to an extension). So, no way Phoenix actually expects to get that much value for him.
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 28, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
Do we even want Amar’e to sign an extension? All that should matter is what it takes to get Cohan to sell the team and who Ellison wants on the team when he takes over.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 28, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
If we got a Maggs + w/e deal for Amare
I wouldn’t want amare to resign…He would be far better expiring so we could go for someone like Bosh without losing Ellis.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Well, probably not. But, that’s another issue.
I suppose a team that has a chance to win it all this year might be willing to give up Curry type value in exchange for having Amare ‘till the end of the year. That’s why the Amare to the Heat rumors make some sense to me (although they still wouldn’t be getting ‘value equal to Curry’)..
Quit making the theiving Wall Street Fat-Cat Bankers even richer.
moveyourmoney.info
by cybermaldonado on Jan 28, 2010 6:13 PM PST up reply actions
I hope this happens, for warrior fans this would be great
I love maggette, i backed him up, but if we can get a All-Star power forward that we’ve been missing is amazing. If i HAD to trade curry or randolph it’d be Randolph. But if we can get STAT by offering our first round pick this year, then that would be better. I’d love this lineup. Of Course all this would happen if he’d sign and extension.
PG-Curry
SG- Ellis
SF- Randolph
PF- Amar’e
C- Biedrins
bench: Buike, Turiaf, Morrow, CJ
Dangerous playoff team right there.
OWENS! OWENS! OWENS! OWENS!
- Joe Starkey
by 9ersDubsGiantSharks on Jan 28, 2010 5:50 PM PST reply actions
AR > Curry sorry.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
in trade value?
Yes. Athletic young bigs like him are rare.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:17 PM PST up reply actions
I thought we are a 50 win team if everyone is healthy at least that is what a dumb guy suggested!!!! Lol
Waaaarriors
a dumb guy
Would that be the same dumb guy who taught you that your favorite team’s name wasn’t spelled “Warroirs”? ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 28, 2010 9:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh
Sleepy and his sarcastic ways. hehe
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:14 PM PST up reply actions
That doesn't make much sense
considering how defensively minded the Spurs are.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 8:56 PM PST up reply actions
well they have duncan, bogans, and parker on the floor for that reason
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
I still don't buy it
Ginobili, though he is down from past years, is still one of the best perimeter defenders in the league.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 28, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
No, Manu is good now. Not great.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
Hill and Manu for Amar’e depletes the Suns frontcourt too much.
If i were the Suns, i’d be asking for Manu and Blair. That’d be a great trade for them.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:02 PM PST up reply actions
Get Him
I would happily trade Maggette and AR plus our second round pick for Amare. He is what we need a true all star power forward that will help everyone around him. Curry assist would jump up tremendously if he had a guy like Amare. If he walks away fine no problem. Go after Boozer with that kind of money freed up or wait and see who will be available in trade. Look at what Randolph is doing for the Grizzles, they were one of the worst teams last year and now they are competing for a playoff position.
Amare can do that and more, I would be happy to get him if it takes Maggette and AR. I wont trade Curry as he is the future unless we end up with first overall pick John Wall lottery pick (which is very likely by the rate of games we are losing), but I would be happy also to trade Biedrins, Speedy and Ellis if we can get Brad Miller, Tyrus Thomas and Salmons plus their first round pick. It would be a win win situation for both of us. Our lineup would be like this.
OR
Curry Curry
Morrow Salmons
Salmons Martin
Thomas Amare
Stoudemire Miller
That is this year.
Next year would be even better if we keep everyone
Waaaarriors
Not going to happen
and probably doesn’t make sense for many reasons
too many to list so i’ll just state the obvious: unrealistic
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
Amar'e isn't a difference maker
I’m only for the Maggette trade because we would have so much more cap space. i was thinking of making a post titled
" Superstars, not Supasta’s Win Games"
Premise would have been, no team besides the ‘04 Pistons have won without a top 10 player. Neither Monta or Amar’e are top 30 or 40 players, so building a team around either is flawed from the start, and building around the duo is just not smart either. So, it appears the only realistic way we are going to aquire a top 10 talent would be via the draft and John Wall is that type of prospect. I’m not for tanking, but in this case, we have the rare opportunity to go from a very bad team to a very good team very quickly in the next two years ( i’m also hoping we will have a much better coach by then). If we have a couple of top 50 players ( Biedrins, Monta, hopefully AR or BW by then) and a top 10 player, we could be a great team. Alot of ifs but it’s much more realistic in thinking rather than aquiring Cp3 or Bosh.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 7:41 PM PST up reply actions
I’ll just point out one thing – we probably should be looking to trade Maggette right now. He’s playing the best basketball of his life, we’re not going to the playoffs, it IS a good time to sell high on him.
by Missing Barry on Jan 28, 2010 7:29 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 7:42 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
We’re not going anywhere, so we should at least be kicking the tires. There has to be some interest in Maggette despite the contract.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Jan 28, 2010 8:10 PM PST up reply actions
Yup
I don’t think he’s going to be better than right now. I actually think his trade value is starting to go down (recently his playing has been pretty bad), so trading him right now would make sense.
Naw 408
I doubt two bad games would make his trade value decline too much. i think 25 games of super play ( if you don’t count the entire season as spectacular) significantly outrates 2 bad games in terms of value. Still, even in the albatross 3-22 performance, he still got to the line 16 times while shooting it at an 80+% clip. And that is extremely valuable for many reasons. I’m surprised the Spurs aren’t interested in Maggette, he is alot better than RJ and cheaper (not that i would want RJ in return) and they need some efficient high volume scoring to complement Duncan’s MVP season.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:31 PM PST up reply actions
Care to elaborate on that?
I know firing Nelly is a huge priority for a lot of Warrior fans, but that’s not the only way we can get better.
a guy who does not care about anything but a record i just dont c us moveing forword with him with us
well of course if you give nellie a team with
Andre Miller
Monta Ellis
Corey Maggette
Boozer
Biedrins
with Curry backing up guard spots
buike healthy
Randolph
sure if you give Nellie a great team, i’m sure he can formulate it into a decent team.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
that is a random list of names...
care to elaborate?
I know
but i’m saying if you gave him a group of players with that talent we’d probably have a better record.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:14 PM PST up reply actions
It would only make a big difference if we hire a good coach to replace him. Keith Smart is a slightly more defensive oriented, enthused Nellie.
I think making a Paul Westphal type of hire would be good. I’m not sold at all on any of the top assistants in the league right now. Hire a guy who has had head coaching experience and maybe hasn’t had a job due to bad luck/ unfourtunate situations ( look at the job Lionel hollins has done now he has talent)
I’d like to think Reggie Theus would be a good hire. He did a great job his first year on the job, then the next year he is fired when his star player is out the majority of the games he coaches….
My Coaching List:
Reggie Theus
Mike Woodson ( if he is not extended, a serious possibility)
Tom Thibodeau
Byron Scott
Marc Ivaroni
Mike Fratello
Jeff Van Gundy
Doug Collins
nothing less.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 8:57 PM PST up reply actions
I know everyone wants a coaching change, but he’s not the only one to blame for this team being so bad. I mean, look at our roster. Pretty solid team right? Except when the injuries start to kick in. Nelly is a crazy coach, and I can see why people want a change, but firing him is not the only way this team can be better. If we had an actual healthy roster, people wouldn’t complain about Nelly’s coaching. All I’m saying is that there are many ways to improve this roster (i.e. trades, maybe an actual healthy roster?), firing Nelly isn’t the only solution.
You are completely right in some aspects. If we had a better roster, i’m sure we would have a good record, however this team has severely underachieved the last 2 years( if not 3) with the talent we do have. Have injuries hurt? Of course. Has his insistence on smallball hurt more? By Far.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:04 PM PST up reply actions
correction
If we had a better roster, i’m sure we would have agoodbetter record
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:06 PM PST up reply actions
Well, if we had 36 wins this year, would you consider that success? If BW and AR were healthy and played the minutes they deserve, and biedrins played around 30 mpg in around 90% of games, i don’t see why we wouldn’t be pushing for 45 wins. This team would be so much better if Nellie stopped the small-ball madness. If we could rebound well, we would be a good team. And it’s not like AR and BW can’t score. We don’t lose anything by playing a AR/ BW and AB frontcourt, as we still have efficient scoring, and good rebounding.
When we play ridiculous small ball, we lose rebounding, and add less efficient, higher volume scoring. It really doesn’t make sense why more people haven’t noticed this.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
Any facts/ links to back that up?
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed
Listen guys, I know you guys are fans but think logically, trading Ellis, Maggette and Biedrins is the only way we can start from scratch. We have young pieces like Curry, Morrow, Buike, AR but we are not wining with Ellis, Maggette and Biedrins. We either trade our young pieces or trade our best players to get better. We are seeing the status quo results, this is third worst team in the NBA. Why? cause we can’t defend no one. We need to upgrade every position except the PG. Get guys who can play better defense and can score. Now, my earlier trade is reasonable, http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine.
Basically, we trade Ellis, Speedy and Biedrins for Tyrus Thomas, Brad Miller and John Salmons, according to ESPN trade machine it would give +3 wins and it would give them -7, we become a better defensive team. Besides, Chicago need a player like Ellis who can give them as much as Ben Gordon was giving them plus they get another big man Biedrins. I know that they are going after Bosh or Wade but what if those guys resign with their teams, Ellis would be a better fit for them. So if we trade Maggette, AR and Radmanovic for Amare Stoudemire, our team would be much better.
Curry Curry
Morrow Salmons
Salmons Martin
Thomas Amare
Stoudemire Miller
Waaaarriors
This team has no bench and that the starting 5 isn’t good enough to trump a terrible bench.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 9:16 PM PST up reply actions
what bench do we have now???? Anthony Tolliver, Chris Hunter, Cartier Martin, Speedy Claxton, Devan George, Vladimir Radmanovic ? Do you call this a bench Lol. Actually with that lineup we are a better offensive and defensive team. We would win more games plus next year when everyone is healthy (if they are), we would have adequate bench. Buike, Watson, Wright, Raja Bell (if we resign him) would be a stronger bench. Why in the world would you articulate a lame excuse like that? Cause you are an Ellis lover I suppose.
Waaaarriors
Thats only because we have had so many injuries.
That isn’t our ideal bench.
Its probably more like
CJ
Morrow
Buike
Wright
Turiaf
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:16 PM PST up reply actions
Ok
We would still have those guys in the bench our lineup would be this:
Curry
Raja Bell
Salmons
Amare
Miller
We would still have these players in the bench
CJ
Morrow
Buike
Wright
Turiaf
Waaaarriors
Raja Bell is basically guaranteed not to re-sign with us, and neither is CJ.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 12:53 AM PST up reply actions
Really? I thought players always hit unrestricted free agency after accepting qualifying offers… is it different for undrafted guys or something?
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
I don’t think you can become an unrestricted FA after only 3 years in the league, right?
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
I believe that only applies to guys taken in the first round, but I’m not sure.
JAAAAAAAAAE WE NEED HEEEEELP
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Restricted free agency applies to guys coming off the 4th year of their 1st round pick rookie contracts AND to guys with 3 or fewer years in the league (and some other minor things that don’t apply to Watson).
I thought he was going to be unrestricted as well, but looked more carefully. He will be restricted because he’s not surpassed 3 years of service in the league (or qualified by one of the other criteria that escapes my mind presently). Now, to the best of my understanding, if we grant Watson another qualifying option, we can secure him for another year by matching any offer (or having him accept the QO). We have his full Bird rights, but I do not think the Arenas provision applies anymore. Some foolish team could offer him as much as they can afford under the cap. We could match, in theory.
And if we stand 100% pat:
Curry
Monta
Azubuike
Randolph
Biedrins
—
Morrow
Turiaf
Maggette
Wright
(+ high first round pick)
Certainly not a perfect roster, but much younger and almost certainly more productive, both now and (especially) going forward, than the roster you’re proposing. Your starting SG will be 34 and doesn’t pass or score efficiently (and as RR says, is unikely to re-sign). Your starting SF is a poor-rebounding version of Kelenna, only more expensive and 31 years old. Your starting C will be 34/35 and is already in decline.
After all the whining and bellyaching and trolling you do on this board, is that lame, desultory starting 5 really the best you can do? C’mon man, where’s our LeBron?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 29, 2010 1:50 AM PST up reply actions
You are a joke
First of the roster is max out in cap and talent. Second, the roster I suggested will free up close to 15 mill in cap space, so we would still have a shoot to get someone in SG and SF. Assuming this even happens, let me break it down for you since you might have had problems doing that (of course you Mr. 50 wins when healthy). Brad Miller and Salmons are both expiring contracts in place of Ellis and Biedrins. So resigning both players wont cost us more than 5 mill for both of them. Raja Bell can be resigned for 2.5 mill too. Tyrus Thomas will earn 6.5 mill which is what Radmanovic would be making next year. So here how much each one would earn.
Curry 3 mill
Bell 2.5 mill
Salmons 2.5 mill
Amare 15 mill
Miller 2.5
Bench
CJ restricted free agent comes back for same money 1 mill
Morrow 1.2 mill
Buike 3.3 mill
Wright 3.3 mill
Tyrus Thomas 6.5 mill
Turiaf 4 mill
So with this roster assuming we resign the older guys, we gonna have close to 15 mill in cap space not maxed out like this year 65 mill with the third worst record in the league. Btw, your status quo would never result in winning record you know it and so does everyone in the league, so do the players themselves, why you think Jackson left to wait and see if AR and Curry are gonna lead this team??? Come on man. We need major roster change if we ever gonna compete with the Western Conference.
Waaaarriors
We need major roster change if we ever gonna compete with the Western Conference.
But those old sacto and suns re-treads are less likely to produce a winner than sticking with curr-bury, Rudolf and Montay.and adding a real center and a tough SF?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 29, 2010 2:27 PM PST up reply actions
Dude
Seriously, how would we a get a real center and a tough SF? We are max out in cap space, we paying Biedrins 9 mill a year and Maggette is getting paid close to 9mill playing the SF position. So even if we get a REAL CENTER or TOUGH SF, we will be wasting money having two overpaid bench players. Question is, are we winning with this talent we got? No, then we need to move some pieces. Even if we draft a rookie to play SF, how will he develop playing behind Maggette just like I dont see the logic of having Ellis if we are keeping Curry to lead this team. What we get from Ellis I believe Curry can provide at cheaper salary same way I believe Buike can do what Maggette is doing at cheaper price. I still think Biedrins is max out in potential what you see is what you get. I dont believe the hype around skinny AR and Wright both are similar players, if we keeping Wright which I think he is harder to trade between the two, then we need to trade AR who I think will never learn playing around youngsters, he needs a veteran players around him.
Bottom line, we need to trade Ellis, Maggette and Biedrins get rid of their combined 30 mill salary or trade our young assets Curry, AR and Buike which I believe would be dumb to do. Whatever it is, the idea of keeping this roster like it is hasn’t worked neither last year or this year. You guys can blame it to injury or whatever, I just think we are clearly seeing a starting roster with Curry Ellis Maggette AR Biedrins is not going to take us far, we can’t compete in the Western conference with this starting lineup. Nelson knows it, Capt Jackson knew it, the whole league knows it including Ellis. We need change, we need new blood in this team.
Waaaarriors
You are a joke
Haha. I try…
I still think it’s hilarious that after all the barely coherent moaning and trolling you do about this team full o’ D-leaguers is and how terrible they are (I mean, stop the presses!) the best alternative you can come up with is a little bit o’ cap space and an aging, crappy roster in which none of the starting five is better than NBA average. Unless we’re getting LeBron with that extra scratch, we’re not going anywhere with that pile of junk.
As for the 50-win estimate you keep harping on … sure, being a Warriors Fan I’m almost certainly biased. There’s a bit of math in the guess (extrapolation of the core players’ per minute numbers, with a little fudge factor based on their overall youth) but I can’t deny that there’s also some irrational affection mixed in. In the end it’s just a guess; and like any guess that far into the future, it’s necessarily a bit silly. What I don’t get is why you seem so sure that your prediction of success for your hypothetical team is any less silly. How is your alternate-universe crystal ball any more reliable than mine?
I mean, setting aside your constant ad-homs, tortured logic, and barely intelligible English: do you actually think the moves you’re proposing have any chance of happening? The beauty of my proposed team, beyond its youth and talent, is that it doen’t depend on a whole lot of silly moves and signings that aren’t going to happen.
Now please: get off my nuts and get back to me when you have a trade that gets us LeBron, Wade, CP3, or Howard.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 30, 2010 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
I’ll just point out that the bench doesn’t influence whether you win or lose very much, especially compared to the starting 5.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 8:01 AM PST up reply actions
I want to see what he can do without Nash
because he was not close to as good now as he was in Charlotte.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:21 PM PST up reply actions
Why would you want Jared Dudley? I want good players, personally…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 8:02 AM PST up reply actions
Whats wrong with Dudley
Great shooter (over 40% career 3pter) natural SF, good defender, plays with in the team
Hmm, I was thinking he was more of a 3/4 combo, in which case he’d be a bad rebounder. If he’s strictly a 3 I guess he’s better in that regard. He wasn’t efficient at all in Charlotte. Other than his shooting, he doesn’t do anything on offense. I dunno, just didn’t seem very good to me at all. Seems like a decent defender, but not a shut down type or anything.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:36 AM PST up reply actions
I'm sure if we got him...
Nellie would run him at 4 :/
He was also barely in the league in charlotte and they were awful. Anyway i don’;t think he offers anything more than than azubuike… except he’s better 3 pt shooter at elbow
well and he’s healthy
he’s healthy
That does seem like a pretty valuable commodity around GS these days…
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
That would be a pretty bad trade for the Suns
I can’t imagine them wanting Maggette for Amare straight up when they want cap relief
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Jan 28, 2010 10:24 PM PST reply actions
SOUNDS like they are talking about Curry/Randolph/Maggs for Amare
hell no
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Jan 28, 2010 10:26 PM PST reply actions
Ummm that would be a disaster
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:48 PM PST up reply actions
I mean you could argue that AR is better than Amare is right now
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 10:49 PM PST up reply actions
Hear it now:
AR Per 36
18.5 PPG
10.5 RPG
2APG
2.5 BPG
1.3 SPG
Amar’e
21. 4 PPG
8.7 RPG
1.1APG
.8 SPG
1.0 BPG
Theres my argument. Not much of a difference overall. Amar’e is much more efficient scorer, Randolph is better at everything else.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Jan 28, 2010 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
wow Per 36, do you think that gives you an accurate stat, per 36 many players would be good, the reason AR never gets 36 mins a game is cause he still doesnt know how to play efficiently as Amare does, basically per 36 many players in the NBA will seem like they would have career numbers. I dont believe these numbers how about showing me the few games AR played with those numbers.
Waaaarriors
Per 36 is typically a pretty accurate predictor of increasing/decreasing a player's minutes
The fact that Randolph really tries on defense is the crux of the matter, I think.
He also gets more blocks in a game while playing 12 minutes less per game, and gets only 2 rebounds less (8.5 vs 6.5) in 2/3 the minutes, and the same amount of steals. That’s pretty awful that Amar’e can’t outproduce in those stats than a player that gets 12 minutes less a game than him.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 29, 2010 12:57 AM PST up reply actions
wow Per 36, do you think that gives you an accurate stat
Yes. Its been proven to be pretty accurate. Much more accurate than the smaller sample sizes youre asking for as evidence. But dont feel too bad, youre not the first misinformed person to come through here and make that same statement. However, Randolph’s offensive efficiency is below average while Amare is among the best in the league in that area. I think the difference there is big enough to give Amare the nod….but is he worth 15 million more per year than Randolph? No.
Thing A
BTW Amare got 1 rebound yesterday lol
I would not give up Curry or Randolph for Amare. He already hated on the Warriors and if the Suns cant even win with him how can we. Maggete for Amare = Yes. Anything else NO
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Jan 29, 2010 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
J rich back in the bay with amare? love it
* PG: Stephen Curry
* SG: Monta Ellis
* SF: Jason Richardson
* PF: Amare Stoudemire
* C: Andris Biedrins
* Bench: Anthony Randolph, Anthony Morrow (need to re-sign), Ronny Turiaf, Kelenna Azubuike, and a few D-Leaguers since this is the Golden State of D-Leaguers
Man that would be exciting. And we would still get a pretty good draft pick. oh man would be awesome
That’s a pretty expensive roster, but I wouldn’t do it. You got to move Ellis or Curry, I don’t think this back court will last forever. I love J-Rich, but his contract is pretty bad and as for Biedrins, moving him would be a pretty good idea and maybe get a young stud. I’d like to see Randolph starting at PF and maybe Amare at C. The bench seems pretty well, maybe sign a veteran PG to it?
I do believe
Richardson is an expiring next year.
There is no way the Warriors should do the trade
if it involved Curry or Randolph. NO WAY. Everyone else I think should be not untouchable including Ellis (even though I love Ellis to death). I don’t see Ellis as part of this team’s future, as good as he is, once Nellie leaves unfortunately.
Obviously in the PAST...
Stoudemire used to destroy entire front courts by himself. But that is in the past.
Anyone watch the Suns Mavs game last night? Holy crap did Amare look awful. That dude might as well not even be on the court anytime he’s not running a pick and roll with Nash.
Box score has him at ONE whole rebound
In 26 minutes. That’s pretty pathetic.
Don't worry about me Thurgood, I'll be fine. The robbery is what's important now.
YUP.
The guy has all the talent in the world but he doesn’t play defense or does he bother to rebound unless it means he’ll get a easy score.
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Jan 29, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
He really doesn’t do anything ever unless he’s involved in an offensive play. He looked awful last night.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2010 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
Looks like he WANTS to leave
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Jan 29, 2010 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
if you read the sun's blog post...
…he is talking about Amare for Curry or Randolph and a draft pick. Curry = no chance. Randolph is an interesting one. Are we will to cut bait after being let down? Was there something else that happened that caused the performance not to meet our off-season improvement expectations? Will he thrive in a non-Nelson environment? Maggette has been great for us this year on/off the court, but selling high seems to be the way to go (especially if it expedites Ellison buying the team)
Curry = no chance. Randolph is an interesting one.
[sound of onlxn’s head exploding…]
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 29, 2010 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
Heh. I’m in no rush to get rid of Curry, either… I have some concerns about his playmaking, but I think he’s a helluva young player all the same.
Still, yeah, there’s a troublesome tendency, both on the part of the organization and the fanbase, to undervalue our bigs, simply because they don’t play pretty basketball. And the one reinforces the other: the organization’s low opinion of our bigs bolsters the fans’ belief that the bigs stink, while the fans’ preference for the littler players makes the organization all the more eager to build around them, whether or not they’re actually the more effective players.
One of the biggest long-term problems with this franchise is its preference for a certain basketball aesthetic — run and gun, fun to watch, offense over defense. And it’s not only a problem in the sense that that’s often a losing strategy. It’s a problem in the sense that it limits our potential talent pool. When you’re a crappy team, you have to be eager to latch onto any type of talent you can, and be willing to shift to accomodate players if they’re good enough to merit it. With our current mindset, there are a large number of players that we refuse to draft, sign, trade for or build around… that makes it infinitely harder to get competitive again.
No matter who owns the team, the Warriors aren’t likely to be a quality franchise until they get over their overwhelming preoccupation with run-and-gun basketball. And we, as fans, shouldn’t be married to it, either. We lead the league in fast break points by a mile, but how much entertainment does that really provide when you’re 13-31?
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Jan 29, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
And we, as fans, shouldn’t be married to it,
We’re not, we hate it but they still keep it coming.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 29, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
The only way the Suns do this deal is if Randolph is included.
I think they would have to do it, even if they don’t resign STAT because if the Warriors don’t turn things around now, it doesn’t matter if Randolph turns into a good player later. At that point, he will be wanting to leave. I know that’s a loser’s mentality but well, we’re literally fans of losers. What can you do?
Maggette + Randolph + Claxton for STAT.
As much as STAT’s defensive deficiencies, he’s a veteran player who won’t make silly mistakes like Randolph. I think Curry will feed the beast quite well, even if it’s for half a season. The risk is worth it.
If Randolph becomes a beast somewhere else, so be it. We’re use to it. It’s not like all the ex-Warriors that become All-Stars have actually gone deep into the playoffs with the exception of Latrell Sprewell on the Knicks.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Talent perspective aside, if this is purely about business and shedding liabilities, what next? Will it be compounded by more bad decisions or the sale of the team. I think the former is much more likely.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jan 29, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Amare and J-Rich to Golden State
There’s nothing I’d love to see more than J-Rich back in Oakland (other than a couple wins).
I used the ESPN Trade Machine and did Azubuike, Bell, Claxton, George, Maggette and Radmanovic for Amare and J-Rich.
Sadly, in increased Phoenix’s projected wins by 3 and decreased the Warriors projecteds wins by 1
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