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Jeremy Lin: The New Steve Nash, making Asian-American history tonight in Santa Clara, of all places

Originally posted Jan 4, 2010 2:37 AM PST

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[Poor Man's Commish's long preface...

TICKETS TO TONIGHT'S GAME, Jeremy Lin's Harvard at Santa Clara University (7pm), are very nearly sold out. Per the SCU ticket office recording during the weekend, out of 4,500 capacity there were about 400-600 tickets left on Friday and my organization just bought 150 of them (50+ sold through us yesterday alone!). We still have some discounted General Admission tickets here, but I predict it will sellout by NOON.

If you want to see an arena filled with thousands of Asian-Americans rooting for the best Asian-American basketball player ever, you should come to this historic game. Heck, even if you can't get a ticket, come by Leavey Center's parking lot to see this crowd. You might never see anything like it again.

All the local newspapers will be there, interviewing fans left and right. Former sports anchor Rick Quan of www.asianamericansports.com will be there. Chinese TV station KTSF-20 will be there. ESPN's college basketball blog beatwriter, Diamond Leung, will be there. The list goes on.

Most everyone will be wearing black in support of Jeremy and Harvard's road alternate black jerseys, since Santa Clara shares the same red/white colors. I don't think a game like this has ever happened before in NCAA Division I!

The following piece comes from one of my colleagues, "SMC" -- and no, the "MC" does not stand for "Man's Commish"; that just happens to be a coincidence! -- who grew up in the same area as Steve Nash. SMC's done a nice, thorough write-up. I present this to having full confidence that GSoM founders Atma Brother ONE and Fantasy Junkie endorse posting this via my account, i.e., IT'S THAT GOOD OF A READ!]

By SMC

When I was in high school way back when, there was this point guard that everyone talked about. He was arguably the best point guard in the province of British Columbia and won a Provincial Championship, along with the MVP trophy that year. We later learned he was given a scholarship to a small mid-major in Northern California called Santa Clara University. We all expected him to be back in Canada playing for one of the local Universities because of the splinters he’d be gathering from being on the bench, as that’s what happened to many of the stars of our province that went state-side.

He eventually did come back. He came back to play against the hometown Vancouver Grizzlies as a member of the Phoenix Suns and the Dallas Mavericks.

Jeremy Lin will be on the court for Harvard at the Leavey Center Arena at Santa Clara University today. Few will be reminded of Steve Nash crossing over Jason Kidd (who played for Cal Berkeley at the time), Nash's pinpoint 3-point accuracy or his penchant for finding his teammates at impossible angles by watching Jeremy Lin, but Lin is following a similar path of rising from obscurity that Nash’s Nikes paved when he was at Santa Clara from 1992 to 1996.

Star-divide

Lin and Nash play the same position of point guard and their style of play is comparable, but they are hardly mirror images of each other. Physically, they are comparable in stature, as both are listed at 6’3. If you have met the two players, you would know that Nash is barely 6’2 and that Lin actually seems taller than 6’3. (I’ve met both players, and Steve Nash is barely taller than I am and I’m a tad over 6’0 tall. Lin looked down on me when we shook hands. He seemed taller than his listed height of 6’3.)

Body-wise, Nash in college and Lin earlier on looked more like skinny pre-med students than world-class athletes. Nash has always been the prototypical pass first, look for his shot second point guard. His game was always on the ground and very cerebral. He was very quick and fast and always plays at the same frenetic speed and pace, but he has never been explosive. Lin is explosive. He is very deceptive, where it looks like he’s going for a routine drive, but he’ll explode for a dunk. He even averages 1.2 blocks which is a testament to his explosive athleticism. Lin is also adept at playmaking with a 4.53 assists average, but he’s not a player that can dominate a game without scoring like Nash could. Nash averaged 6 assists a game in his senior season, while averaging 17 points

Then how is Jeremy Lin comparable to Steve Nash when he was in college if their games were different? It may seem ludicrous to compare a 2-time NBA MVP that plays for the Phoenix Suns to an Asian American senior at Harvard University, especially if they don’t really look alike or even play alike, but few people remember how often Steve Nash was overlooked and underestimated when they see him now. It’s still early to make comparisons to someone that is a lock for the NBA Hall of Fame, but Jeremy Lin faces the same or maybe even harsher predicaments than what Steve Nash faced on his road to success to the NBA.

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Just the fact that the 2 players ended up playing for non-traditional basketball powerhouse schools and conferences in college begins to shed the evidence on the comparison.

After being the best player in all of Canada, averaging nearly a triple double of 21.3 points 9.1 rebounds 11.2 assists,  he was offered only 1 scholarship. Nash’s high school coach lobbied 30 division 1 teams with phone calls and letters to take his number 1 pupil, but only Dick Davey of Santa Clara University bothered to watch him play in person and offer him a scholarship.

You can hardly blame the division 1 coaches for not looking more closely into recruiting talent from the bordering nation.

"When you're at Pepperdine you get 300 letters a year [from players who might want to come to your school]," said former Wave coach Tom Asbury in SportsIllustrated, "And for a white guard from Canada, you're probably not going to do a lot of follow-up."

Canada is more known for producing hockey players and stronger beer than basketball talent. Mike Smrek, Leo Rautins and Bill Wennington are hardly names that inspire confidence in recruiters’ minds. Former Celtic and Laker Rick Fox was the best Canadian at the time, but he hardly lived in Canada after his parent’s moved him to the Bahamas when he was 3 and then to Indiana in high school.

Jeremy Lin led his high school, Palo Alto, to the California Championship. He led his team to defeat the powerhouse Mater Dei for the 2006 Boy’s title and was named Boy’s Player of the Year.  Lin was the best player on the best team. Yet, nobody offered him a scholarship. Does that seem appalling to anyone else?

In an interview conducted by Dream League New York Commissioner Brian Yang in the winter of 2007, Lin’s freshman season, Lin described his decision process when choosing a school:

"I was mainly choosing between Harvard, Stanford, and Cal. I wasn’t getting any scholarships from Stanford or Cal but in terms of Cal I just didn’t really like it there when I visited it there…

And Stanford, the coach wasn’t really honest with me in terms of recruiting and stuff and I definitely didn’t want to go play for him. Harvard seemed like a good fit in terms of athletics and academics and I enjoyed it when I came out to visit and I just thought it’d be a new experience coming out to the East Coast and just wanted to see what it was like, so I chose Harvard."

In many ways, Lin was slighted more than Nash. It’s completely understandable why nobody else took a chance on Nash because he was a very skinny 6’2 and coming out of a place that was nowhere near the competition level of what the United States had. Take into consideration that in 1992, the Internet had not taken off and the dissemination of news did not reach as far as it does now, so a sensation like Nash would only be heard of by chance or if Nash’s camp reached out and promoted him.

He did, however, receive one scholarship, where Lin was offered none. Lin was the best player in the biggest state in the United States in 2006. This is an age where there’s youtube, more television coverage and more national camps and player recruiting evaluation sites, so you would think that no stone would be left unturned. It wasn’t that the stone was left unturned, but more likely that it was ignored.

Let’s look at reality and address the big elephant. If you haven’t noticed by now, Jeremy Lin is of Asian descent, Taiwanese to be precise. Asians haven’t exactly lit the basketball world on fire. There have been some inroads with Yao Ming (Houston Rockets 2002-present) and Yi Jianlin (Milwaukee Bucks/New Jersey Nets 2006-present) lately and Wat Misaka (New York Knicks 1947-48) and Rex Walters (NJ Nets/Phil 76ers/Miami Heat 1993-2000) of yesteryear, but it has been very few and far in-between.

Even in college basketball, Asians are rare. Bryan Chu of the San Francisco Chronicle in his 2008 article, "Asian Americans remain rare in men’s college basketball,"  says there are 19 Asian Americans and Asian Americans of mixed race in total out of 4,814 division I basketball players. That’s 0.4% when you do the math. Lin addressed the race issue in the same Chu article:

"I'm not saying top-5 state automatically gets you offers," Lin said, "but I do think (my ethnicity) did affect the way coaches recruited me. I think if I were a different race, I would've been treated differently."

You are better off being Canadian than Asian for any precedence in basketball (You’re really screwed if you’re Asian Canadian.).

Both Lin and Nash were chartering fairly new ground. As a result of nobody else taking a chance on them, despite being highly talented, they became the big fish in a small pond, which was and is another question mark for critics to judge their talent for the next level.

To say that Harvard, where Lin plays, and the Ivy League are not known to produce NBA talent is an understatement. The last person to make it to the NBA from Harvard was Ed Smith, who played 11 games for the New York Knicks in 1953. Two notable NBA players from the Ivy League are Chris Dudley from Yale, who played for 16 seasons from 1987 to 2003 on various teams and Matt Maloney, who was undrafted out of UPenn and started as a rookie point guard on a Houston Rockets team that had future Hall of Famers Hakeem Olajuwon, Charles Barkley and Clyde Drexler that won 57 games.

Nash faced the same scrutiny of being in a non-traditional basketball school and conference early on in his college career, as the Santa Clara Broncos only had Kurt Rambis of the early 80’s Laker’s fame as their only notable NBA alumni. There, however, was a point guard by the name of John Stockton that played in the West Coast Conference for Gonzaga from 1980 to 1984 that Nash was often compared to. The unflashy, yet highly effective Stockton went onto being the career assists and steals leader in the NBA in a well-decorated 19-year career for the Utah Jazz. Nash has shied away from the comparisons to Stockton, but it doesn’t hurt when scouts are reminded of an all-time great when seeing you play.

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Lin, unfortunately, does not have the luxury of being compared to anyone else. The closest comparison to Lin might be Rex Walters, who played for the University of Kansas Jayhawks from 1991-93, but no one has made that comparison for good reason. They are different type of players on vastly different teams. Walters did not have to carry his final four Kansas Jayhawks teams like Lin has had to carry his Crimson to even a respectable record. The only thing the 2 have in common is their Asian heritage.

One thing that Nash was able to do to gain recognition during college that Lin has not been able to do is lead his team to the NCAA tournament. It was the NCAA tournament that introduced Steve Nash to the nation, where as a freshmen, his underdog Broncos upset the 2nd seeded Arizona Wildcats, which at the time was the biggest opening round upset in the history of the tournament.

The Crimson have not made the tournament since 1946. This year Lin and his team can change that. The Crimson are 8-3, as of December 29th. Cornell, who has won the last 2 Ivy League Conference titles and returns all their starters from last season, is the favorite, but with the way the Crimson are playing and barring injury, will make a good run to be in the tournament for the 1st time in 64 years.

Lin has also enjoyed some national attention recently. His buzzer beater in a triple overtime thriller against William and Mary was one of ESPN’s highlights of the night, as well as a feature article on the site by Dana O’Neil. He also seems to play his best when playing against higher competition, which gives him more recognition. Lin began to receive more national attention when he led his team with 26 points in an upset win over #17 Boston College last season. This season he almost led the Crimson to an upset over #10 University of Connecticut with 30 points. The next game he poured in 25 to upset Boston College for the 2nd year in a row.

The numbers are also hard to ignore. Last season he was the only player in the nation to rank among the top 10 in his conference in every major statistical category (steals, assists, scoring, free-throw percentage, free throws, free-throw attempts, rebounds, blocks, field-goal percentage and 3-point percentage) . So far this season, his stat line looks like this:

18.6 points, 5.3 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 3.3 turnovers, 2.1 steals, 1.2 blocks, 52% FG, 74% FT, 37% 3P

He leads his team in scoring, rebounds, assists, steals and three-pointers. NBA draft experts such as ESPN’s Chad Ford and draftexpress.com have taken notice. Legendary Connecticut coach Jim Calhoun was quoted,

"He knows how to play," Calhoun said. "He's one of the better kids - including Big East guards - who have come in here in quite some time."

Calhoun knows quite a bit about elite guards, as he’s coached the likes of Ray Allen (Boston Celtics), Richard Hamilton (Detroit Pistons) and Ben Gordon (Detroit Pistons).

Steve Nash has had to prove his doubters wrong that he wasn’t just any "white" point guard who’s numbers seemed inflated because he played in inferior settings. Also, take into consideration that the mid-90’s was the era of the athletic scoring point guards in the mold of Allen Iverson. The highly regarded point guards at the time were Iverson of Georgetown and Stephon Marbury of Georgia Tech, both of whom were selected ahead of Nash in the 1996 draft (Iverson, 1st overall, Marbury, 4th, Nash, 15th), so Nash’s style of play was somewhat old-fashioned compared to the new wave of athletic scoring point guards that were coming into vogue in NBA circles at the time.

It was out of Steve Nash’s control where he was from or what "race" he belonged to. He was special and he knew it, even if everyone else didn’t. With the opportunities he was given, he made the best of them. A testament to how special of a player and person Nash is, there hasn’t been any point guard from Canada make it into the NBA since.

There, however, might be a Taiwanese American point guard that may very well meet him there that took a similar path. Jeremy Lin has done the same things so far, as far as making the most of the little opportunities that were given to him because of shortsighted people (I’m sure the coaches at Cal and Stanford are kicking themselves right now.).

Now, if it was me way back when and someone told me about an Asian-American basketball player that leads his high school to a state championship against the state’s traditional powerhouse program, then ends up at Harvard, a dismal basketball program because nobody offers him a scholarship, scores 30 points against UConn and he’s going to be in the NBA, I would have thought the person was out of touch with reality.

But today, I’m a believer because it’s happened before and it’s happening again.

Also see: Bow to the Jeremy Lin Movement (b-o-w = Based On What?)

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Good player but.....

He is like Nash in that he broke a sterotype (Canadian and Asian Basketball Players) and was shunned by the power conferences. Lin will be lucky to make an NBA roster and is probably no better than Bryce Drew. Still, the kid is a very good player; just not in Nash’s stratosphere.

by Icahn on Jan 4, 2010 5:46 AM PST reply actions  

Jeremy Lin articles are by far the most popular

posts on my Ivy Basketball blog. The following he’s amassing is … just crazy. The Santa Clara game is almost sold out, according to headlines on both the Harvard and Santa Clara athletics websites, and judging from Poor Man’s Commish’s efforts, there’ll probably be louder cheers for the Crimson. I think this is the first time the Ivy championship will receive national attention.

by ivybb.byethost32.com on Jan 4, 2010 6:17 AM PST reply actions  

It may seem ludicrous to compare a 2-time NBA MVP […] to [a] senior at Harvard University

Pretty much sums it up. Especially when the person making the comparison just posted an equally ludicrous diary to the same effect not three weeks ago. Note the omission of the bit about “Asian American,” as it doesn’t affect the meaning of the statement at all. I just don’t see how it’s nearly as relevant as you make it out be, P.M. Commish (16 mentions of the word “Asian” in one diary, for the record).

I mean, I appreciate all the hard work and the solid writing, but it really doesn’t make the premise any less laughable. The chances of Lin having an NBA career like Nash’s are extremely remote, period. To harp on such a remote scenario with the passion, depth and attention to detail you do is an impressive feat, but I have to say it reminds me a bit of the guy on Sproul Plaza who used to rant about Stephen King having shot John Lennon — with mountains of well-researched “evidence” to support the theory.

I mean, really, what’s the point? In the extremely unlikely event that Lin does become NBA all-star, do you want to be crowned Swami of the Hoops Blogosphere? And if he settles into his (much more likely) spot in the D-League or Europe or at the back end of an NBA bench, will you issue a public apology? I never really see the value in this kind of silly public crystal-ball gazing.

One other minor note…

He even averages 11.2 blocks

Per month?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2010 7:08 AM PST reply actions  

I mean, really, what’s the point?

Like anybody else, Asian Americans love their sports. But unlike other ethnicities, there aren’t very many in pro sports, and just a few who are American-born of mixed heritage (Lincecum, for one).

What can I say, it would make for a nice sense of belonging should he make it into the league. But with that being said, should he end up with the Lakers we’ll still root against him.

by DomoKun on Jan 4, 2010 9:29 AM PST up reply actions  

So go cheer for him. But you don’t have to shove him down our throats.

by slapchop on Jan 4, 2010 2:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Hatorade

What I find ludicrous is the amount of hating that goes on against JL4. When Obama was elected president, we definitely heard the black community rise loud and proud. When someone of any ethnic minority group stand out in the public here in the United States (or Canada since we’re on the topic), the support said person receives from his or her “people” is great. Why not? We strive to live in an intergrated society with no color lines, but when you see someone who looks like you in the spotlight, why is it that Asian Americans seems to always want to dog whoever’s up there?

I love my peeps, but I’ll also be the first to say that AA’s are the most apathetic community in the US when it comes to supporting or rallying around a cause. In general, they are either apathetic, or spend too much time infighting. Sure, it’s America, and people are entitled to their own opinion, but if our community ever wants to get taken seriously by the US, it starts with our profile in the media, like it or not. The lack of Asians on screen, in big times sports, all of that – it contributes to Johnny Knoxville in Tennessee still calling an Asian guy he sees a not so nice word that rhymes with sink. The more mainstream AA’s go, the more barriers and stereotypes break down.

The more hating from within the community, the more we live with this chip on our shoulder, as JL has each time he steps out on the court and feels like he has to prove himself to non-Asians.

I don’t know if all these haters on here are AA’s, but it doesn’t matter. It starts in the community. If we can’t even stand together on a cause, how are people outside of the community supposed to take us seriously? I’d be hatin’ us AA’s too if all I saw was them hatin’ on one another.

JL4 may well not wind up in the NBA, but, haters, let’s see you do what he’s doing. Oh wait, how can you possibly when all you’re doing is sitting there with your remote control and potato chips, criticizing from your lazy-boy while a beer belly develops?

JL4, do your thang.

by Lin's4real on Jan 4, 2010 9:37 AM PST reply actions  

So … it’s “hating” to have serious doubts that an Ivy League senior who’s still not projected in the first two rounds by DraftExpress or DraftNet is going to have as good an NBA career as Steve Nash?

The only thing remotely close to “hating” I see in this thread is happening in your post.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions  

knock knock. still doesn’t get it.

by Lin's4real on Jan 4, 2010 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Haha

Yeah, I’m kinda stoopid that way.

Thanks for the solid contribution to the discussion.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2010 12:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm with Sleepy on this one

Talk to me when we have the first AA president or coach. Making a pro sports squad is really not the barrier we should be touting. Yes is would be great to have a Mexican NBA player some day and I’m sure it will happen (if it already hasn’t) but it’s not like Jackie Robinson where the whole community and pro sports empire is actively preventing people from any ethnicity from making the owners money. If anything you would think they would want to pull from that fan base.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Jan 4, 2010 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Najera is Mexican

49er faithful since July 11, 1985

by J2daZ on Jan 4, 2010 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Cool

Thought I was missing someone.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Jan 4, 2010 1:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Full disclosure

When I say “we” I meant as a whole, I know my name can be confusing but I am in fact not Asian.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Jan 4, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Nice read!

I think Steve Nash is a testament to a lot of "smaller" and "traditionally" less athletic guards in the league who have been able to maximize their skill set with great physical training. When he became an "MVP" player for the Suns two times over, mainstream media discussed his incredible training regiment to make him faster, quicker and also just smarter with the ball in terms of his release time, the type of shots he took, etc. Others say he was just in the right system that inflated his stats. And some others just say he didn’t play defense allowing him to put in full-time energy into offense.

For players like Harvard’s Lin and the Warrior’s Stephen Curry, I believe this type of training could be an option for them on how to get the most out of their talents (with more dedication to defense of course).

I think a lot of people forget about Nash’s early years and it wasn’t as if he was just "born" with these talents. He honed them over the course of a long and very successful career. Will Lin or Curry ever be this good? Probably not or most likely not. But I believe its impossible to preclude any thought about the trajectory of their careers based on generic assumptions about race and skill, which as much as we try to deny… is laden in all of these comments hating on him (and also in loving him).

by dj fuzzylogic on Jan 4, 2010 9:45 AM PST reply actions  

generic assumptions about race and skill, which as much as we try to deny… is laden in all of these comments hating on him

Wow, DJFL … Where exactly do you see “all these comments hating on him”? Has anyone who has legitimate doubts about Lin even brought up the issue of race? Sure looks to me like you’re the one lading on the assumptions here…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Nice

I noticed you took out the part about “loving him”

by dj fuzzylogic on Jan 4, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions  

D'oh

Sorry man, the omission actually wasn’t intentional. I guess I was so put off by the first part I forgot to read the parenthetical part. (My reading when I’m at work tends to be distinctly less thorough than when I’m at home). Obviously, that softens the blow considerably.

Still, your basic point — that any Lin comment, pro or con, is necessarily bound up with his race — is pretty silly, imo.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2010 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Why was my comment erased?? Talking about hatorade!!!

“I’m white and have long hair maybe I can be the next Steve Nash”

by buky on Jan 4, 2010 10:23 AM PST reply actions  

The short answer is no.

If things were truly equal then I would say so but to say that as an example the first African American to be elected president is no big deal is to undervalue the history of what’s gone on in this country. Saying you’re a “White American” is kind of the standard so that’s why that is not used in everyday language just by being the first to take over and make everyone feel like 2nd class humans. There was even a time and you will still here the term “Irish American” and that’s for how they were first treated when they first entered the country.

Being proud of your heritage while recognizing that your still American, (or British) should be no big deal.

Breaking glass ceiling should be looked at as an accomplishment, however I’m not sure that sports is the ceiling that we should be looking at unless it in management or coaching.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Jan 4, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Surely though it simply creates more division?

Personally I feel we are seeing the segregation of groups more now than at any other time in the last 20 years or so. I understand people being proud of their background but it does now tend to create areas in towns that are one particular “community” where you actually do not feel part of that community, if you are of a different ethnic race!

The problem is people saying “It’s our time, it’s time for X group to have their say…etc”. It is already starting where particular areas in major cities have very clear ethnic focus, be it Japantown, China town, the Korean area, etc etc… I know of several people that have moved out of such areas because they felt like an outsider, which is surely wrong, because they will then simply go and live in a “whiter area, or a more Mexican area” as they then dont feel on the outside…all because we are being encouraged to be ‘proud’ of our heritage..but by doing so…you actually create groups of identity, rather than promoting integration.

In effect we have gone into full reverse where once it was Black people, or Chinese workers in the Gold Rush that felt on the outside of things… in short…have we learned nothing of the past??

Yes Obama is deemed “African-American”, but to be brutaly honest we could all claim African heritage if we went back far enough, depending on your personal beliefs.. I am merely of the opinion that…Obama is President of the United States….who actually cares what his ethnic origin is? the question is….can he run a country well? Skin colour really should not matter at all… We can only truly begin to integrate and learn fom the past if we drop all references to ethnicity completely, that means no Asian-American groups, or Islamic American grups, no African American Chambre of Commerce, no Jewish Community Centre…. but simply centres, groups, communities that do not recognise ethnicity or religion in the public domain…or schools..

If we as a generation do not stop this divisionary ‘branding’ now, it will get a lot worse before “equality” gets better….

I truly hope that future generations recognise what was wrong with the past and live today for what it is and that should be society free of any racial connotation at all. I dont want to look at Jeremy Lin and instantly think Asian-American… I want to look at the guy and think, American kid that plays basketball and loves the game… (A LONGGGGGG way from Nash mind you)

Also..I have to disagree with you with regards to the use of “White American” as the norm…I dont think I have ever heard anyone refer to themself as “White American” other than the usual suspects in stupid pointy hats, etc…but the more this heritage insistance continues to be pumped…the more people I can see those who would never have considered calling themselves “White-American” will consider doing so…

It’s also interesting you bring up the Irish-American angle… who again are normally people who have often never even been to Ireland yet like to link themselves to the country..

I can actually see society turning into a ‘Gangs of New York’ style situation where people of certain ethnic groups only live in their ‘Ethnic’ areas…in which case….as people living together, we have learned absolutely bugger all in the last 40 years and that is unbelievable stupidity in its own right…..

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 1:30 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I know its slightly idealistic...

But we can live in hope….as Dr. Martin Luther King stated …

I look to a day when people will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m at work so I can only make a few points but just to clarify I stated that you do NOT hear the term “White American” Because it is considered the norm. When you start out as the oppressor you do not need to justify who you are to anyone.

As a whole, race relations is not an easy subject and yes content of character first and foremost. All I was really trying to say was people need to be proud of where they have come from yet still recognize that they (we) are American/British/Whatever.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Jan 4, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Agreed...

I think a lot of the problem is that people have now been guided to shout loud and proud about who we are, where we came from etc, be it Black, White, Gay, Jewish, Muslim..etc etc, when in fact…maybe we all need a little more …. I dont even know what the right word to use here is…
“decorum???”…I dont know of a better word off the top of my head..
We can all take pride in who we are and where we came from…but do we have to tell/shout that to everyone else to indicate that we are in some way different?
I have no idea…I just find the trend and path a little alarming as it seems that we are becoming a little more ‘tribal’ for want of a better word?

But then again…. its probably no different to declaring ones undying support for a sports team…LOL…afterall…I am a ‘BritWarrior’…lol

Oh the dichotomy…..

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 2:26 PM PST up reply actions  

You seem to think that what a few Asian American posters think is symptomatic of what’s wrong with racial relations in this country? I now have an idea of what Obama is facing when reactions to this post alone is a division of posters based on their race. Think about what you’re saying. It’s absolute that we live in harmony, yes, but it’s also important and necessary to take pride in one’s heritage, of what our parents and grandparents have done in this country. If you cannot, maybe that’s why it’s difficult for you to understand why we identify ourselves as ‘Asian American’ or ‘African American’ rather than simply ‘American.’ It’s not being disrespectful to you, it’s being respectful of ourselves. Sorry.

by DomoKun on Jan 4, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Dont make this a personal issue...

I was generalising what ‘seems’ to be a trend..merely for intellectual discussion…granted this may not be the place…but the promnance of the ‘Asian’ promoton in the article seemed to make this a open subject to discuss?

Please rest assured, the furthest thing from my intention is to make this an anti-asian american post or anyone posting here…

 I am deeply proud of my Heritage in fact our family has been traced back to 1658 in Northern Ireland via Scotland and a suspicion that the very first member of our family was in fact a Loch Keeper in Scotland by definition of the surname…but I myself am English.

I can take pride in my Heritage and trust me….thats pretty messed up, considering the history of conflict between the Scots and English LONG before anyone of any ethnicity other than native, ever stepped foot on the soil of the US.

I just simply dont see the need to overtly promote that heritage in public? Surely that helps integration doesnt it?

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 2:18 PM PST up reply actions  

should have added please at the title above..

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 2:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I understand your POV, and agree with what you say. I just wanted to make my point clear that we don’t use these identifiers as a means of excluding others.

by DomoKun on Jan 5, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions  

I can actually see society turning into a ‘Gangs of New York’ style situation where people of certain ethnic groups only live in their ‘Ethnic’ areas

I’m seeing a more hopeful future. Economic globalization and communication technologies are the trends of tomorrow. As Immortal Technique put it, “there’s no such thing as Hispanics anymore, no Whites, Blacks, Japanese, there’s just rich people and poor people.” Money brings us together like never before!

By the way anyone watch the Cal Stanford game last Sat? Max Zhang movement?!?

by antihero on Jan 5, 2010 2:05 AM PST up reply actions  

You take Immortal Technique's words out of context

what he tried to say was -we should recognise what we all got common instead of searching our own differences to be proud for -because that’s what rich people want -disintegrated community because it’s easy to rule people who don’t recognise real reasons behind their struggle

also i think Immortal is pretty similar in his mind about this with George Carlin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdYfYugvVL4&feature=related

31 Y 6.5 ft 250 lbs 0 IQ

Fire Nellie! Fire Cohan! Fire Gregory! Fire David Stern! No need for explanations, just fire em all!

by Missing Barry

by Lat We N Trash on Jan 5, 2010 4:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Just wondering

@britwarriorGSW,

It’s interesting to hear a white person’s perspective on how he is has a “complete and utter dislike” for the terms African American or Asian American. I’m sorry it’s somewhat annoying for you to hear, but annoyance doesn’t even begin to describe the reality of people who call themselves such. In reality, African Americans and Asian Americans look different than white people and are treated differently. Case in point, Jeremy Lin was the best player on the best basketball team in one of the top basketball states in the country and got zero offers from anywhere. That’s the main point of this steve Nash comparison. Zero offers. Or how just coming off of the bench during a scrum in basketball is so horrible, yet guys losing teeth and all bloodied up in hockey or an entire dugout clearing out in baseball is looked at as part of the game or simply good old boys having a spot of fun.

The terms Asian and African AMerican have grown from a long history of racism in this country. throughout American history, you can find a whole list of derogatory names that were so routinely tossed about for over 150 years and still get used in the lesser educated regions of America. White people were never able to let Americans who weren’t white be Americans, so Asians and Africans embraced their heritages.

Look through American history, you’ll see all of the unflattering depictions in newspapers, movies, books, comics, etc. Keep digging and you’ll learn about the unconstitutional incarcerations of Japanese Americans and Muslim Americans. Americans, yes, but people who were stripped of their freedoms because of how the looked. Any country that was born on the backs of slaves and/or indentured servants who continue to be persecuted long after supposedly being “integrated” in as “Americans” or “Britons” would be best served never forgetting their past slights.

While it may be annoying to you to hear these terms bandied about, my grandparents and parents (who were all pure-bred Americans) spent their whole lives trying to just be “American” and were never allowed to forget that they were in fact “Asian” by those in power. I’m pretty sure you’ve never been asked, “Where you from?” and when revealing you’re from Los Angeles, been asked, “I mean, where are you really from?”

And while I’m not in love with the term Asian American either, because it reduces a whole host of unique and interesting cultures into one big lump sum group, I am not going to pretend that we can all just dump these monikers, forget the past and move forward.

America didn’t learn from the American concentration camps, and repeated its failure to provide freedom to American citizens shortly after 9/11 happened.

It’s interesting that you look at it as a “PC issue.”

by Dodgerblue15 on Jan 4, 2010 2:47 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Good thoughts.

One caveat: at the risk of treading into a bit of minefield, I would be wary of glossing over the nuances between various minority races and classes in 21st Century America.

Specifically: my sense is that life in America for a 21st Century Asian American man attending Harvard — whether he’s looking for a job, or a place to live, or decent health care, or simply strolling down the street at night as a patrol car passes by — is far, far easier, freer and full of opportunity than for, for example, a working class inner city African American. Without delving any further, I feel like this an extremely important distinction to make.

Back on hoops … as others have pointed out, the NBA is a rather different (and altogether less important) can of worms. My gut is that Lin, like Nash, may face a bit of discrimination for belonging to a race that isn’t generally perceived as “athletic,” but that I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s balanced out by the fact that his race is also generally perceived as "smart " and “hard-working” — qualities especially treasured in a point guard.

Bottom line, for me: the NBA is much more of a meritocracy than the real world, and I suspect if Lin really has what it takes to compete with the greatest in the world, he’ll be given every opportunity to prove it.

If you’re looking to beat the drum for people in the world whose odds are unfairly stacked against them, there are lots of causes that are a lot more deserving and noble than Jeremy Lin. (IMHO).

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 4, 2010 3:39 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree

I only put African American and Asian American in the same line because those were the two cultures specifically cited in the above post. As for hoops, the more multi-racial the NBA gets, the better. I think the game has greatly improved thanks to the likes of Dirk Nowitzki, Omri Casspi, Yao Ming and Manu Ginobili.

I also agree that their are far greater causes than Jeremy Lin. I just think the Nash comparison holds water for the fact that they were both under-recruited. Obviously, what happens from here is up to Lin’s actual ability. And while his college numbers are pretty impressive, he does play for a school not known for its basketball program.

by Dodgerblue15 on Jan 4, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree, this is atricky subject and everyone knows some of the scandals of past generations..

Hell, we had stiff upper lip toffs, sending guys over the tops of trenches in WW1 to their sure deaths in their hundreds of thousands and if anyone refused such mind numbing stupidity, they were shot for cowardice..likewise the scandals of the British Empire in certain regions..but unfortunately what has happened in the past is past and we must try new ways to create a greater union surely?

I didnt intend it to seem like I was specifically targetting Asian-American’s here or African Americans, its a very delicate subject and I have tried to handle it in a relatively delicate fashion, however I am sure I could always offend someone.

My point is about the general categorisation of people as being part of a particular group, it’s that, which I dont agree with and yes I might be white, but my motivation in this is not to simply ‘brush under the carpet’ the past…but to genuinely consider ways that greater integration can be achieved and that surely starts by what we call each other?

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

and dont call me white.....in fact...why did I call myself white...

I am….I am….damn…. what colour am I? Peach??? Pinky/tanned? Beigepink?

;-)

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions  

no offense taken

I am genuinely interested in your perspective. It is imperative to think outside the box if we truly want integration, because remaining static is obviously not working out too well.

by Dodgerblue15 on Jan 4, 2010 3:53 PM PST up reply actions  

Case in point, Jeremy Lin was the best player on the best basketball team in one of the top basketball states in the country and got zero offers from anywhere. That’s the main point of this steve Nash comparison. Zero offers.

I feel compelled to chime in here. I want to do it in response to the article, though, not this comment, so see my comment further down in response to the article. The main point is this is not a valid line of thought.

by Missing Barry on Jan 6, 2010 8:36 AM PST up reply actions  

So wait, am I missing something here?

What exactly does this have to do with the Warriors?

"A foghorn blowing out wild and cold." -Dire Straits

by FriscoJoe on Jan 4, 2010 1:33 PM PST reply actions  

Thank You

I don’t understand this either. This has nothing to do with the Warriors. While I know there are a lot of Asian posters on this board (and I might be one), I find the “Basketball Player X is Asian” + “I’m Asian” = News on GSOM to be extremely bizarre.

I do not recall the Jewish or Israeli posters on this board chronicling the rise of Omri Casspi, and I do not recall an Andris Biedrins movement from the Latvian community. Both have much more to do with the Warriors than Jeremy Lin, yet we feel the need to point out every Asian person who can dribble or shoot. Maybe someone should start ASOM.com for this discussion.

But on this board, can we just drop the ethnicity/race talk and stick to Warriors discussion?

by UncleCliffy on Jan 4, 2010 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Hoopin' and more

This is a basketball blog fellas. This is a Bay Area hoops web spot. This is a major hoops issue. This deserves major coverage here- just like if/ when a WNBA team lands in the Bay [http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/11/23/1168128/wnba-coming-to-bay-area-golden]

I do not recall the Jewish or Israeli posters on this board chronicling the rise of Omri Casspi, and I do not recall an Andris Biedrins movement from the Latvian community.

Actually there’s some Latvian posters on GSoM who pretty much only follow the Warriors because of Biedrins- and that’s perfectly fine. If Jewish posters want to chronicle the rise of Omri Casspi on GSoM, they’re more than welcome. I think that’s all facinating stuff.

But on this board, can we just drop the ethnicity/race talk and stick to Warriors discussion?

That’s just not in the DNA of Golden State of Mind. This is an alternative media outlet and space for discussion. Always has been and always will be. Because of that topics like this have a home here. Peep the archives for more of GSoM’s counter-hegemonic “legacy”.

We just don’t “stick to Warriors discussion” here.

Golden State of Mind :: Always keeping it... "Unstoppable Baby!" | SBNation.com

by Atma Brother ONE on Jan 4, 2010 3:16 PM PST up reply actions  

We just don’t "stick to Warriors discussion" here.

Thank goodness. How many ways can you dissect a 9 win team?

Golden State of Mind: Unstoppable Baby!

by Fantasy Junkie on Jan 4, 2010 11:41 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

A million

1. They suck
2. They really suck
3. They really really really suck
4. They really really really really suck

And so on…

We still believe!!

Become a fan on facebook! www.facebook.com/goldenstateofmind

by R Dizzle on Jan 5, 2010 9:02 AM PST up reply actions  

No, I'm pretty sure it a Warriors blog.

Don’t remember much else besides Warriors stuff in the past.

"A foghorn blowing out wild and cold." -Dire Straits

by FriscoJoe on Jan 5, 2010 12:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Haha

You must have missed the Yi and Singh “movements,” and the Tim Hardaway “say it ain’t so” thread, and the daily Kobe v. LeBron debates, and the GSoM GoAT threads, and FJ’s fantasy leagues, and RDiz’s pigskin picks, and DJFL’s takes on sports/culture/politics, and the pre-election political threads, and the threads on threads (i.e. uniforms and shoes), and the musical / hip-hop discussions, and the 1,500+ post political and philosophical forum chaired by Naticus and Toddaverth, and Baumerworld’s takes on pop-tarts and Adonalgland, etc. etc. etc…

Stay up, man!

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Here's the answer Sleepy my man

FriscoJoe – joined April 14, 2008. Henceforth, he does not remember all of the other stuff. And you thought you were too old to remember things!

We still believe!!

Become a fan on facebook! www.facebook.com/goldenstateofmind

by R Dizzle on Jan 5, 2010 4:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Didn’t a lot of those political posts happen during the summer?

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Jan 6, 2010 7:33 AM PST up reply actions  

No, wrong.

I’ve been a member since 07, you’re looking at the wrong date. If thats the case you’ve only been a member 3 days longer than me.

"A foghorn blowing out wild and cold." -Dire Straits

by FriscoJoe on Jan 6, 2010 12:28 PM PST up reply actions  

No, you're missing my point.

I said this a Warriors blog. Not saying everything has always been relevant, the only thing I would expect to see here in NBA stuff.. But Tim Hardaway, and the uniforms, Kobe etc… all pertain to the Warriors. I’m not here for politics, Hip Hop or NFL picks… There are better blogs and places for that.

"A foghorn blowing out wild and cold." -Dire Straits

by FriscoJoe on Jan 6, 2010 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

One question...

I have noticed over the years that this site seems to have a heavily Pro-Asian feel to any basketball player that has that heritage. Now I am not saying that there is anything remotely wrong with that, however I do wonder was this site set up by Asian American Golden State Warrior fans? Because that is the feeling that I have always gotten on this site from the Yi Movement on down. And since we are in cyber-space I have no idea (and at the same time no bias) as to what race, gender, or nationality I am talking with. Thanks.

by jasonlbe on Jan 4, 2010 4:22 PM PST reply actions  

This is the GSOM crew...at their holidays meet up!

This was posted by the guys here:
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2009/12/19/1208651/recap-warriors-109-wizards-118

Left to right..
Olympic Mike, Atma Brother #1, Tony.pd, Poor Man’s Commish, Feltbot, JAE, R Dizzle, DJ Fuzzy Logic, Fantasy Junkie

according to his Dizzleness..

"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"

by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 5:24 PM PST up reply actions  

One other thing...

I am also in agreeance with many of the other posters on this topic that it is fine for discussion, but I do question putting in on the front page and thus creating a discord on a subject whose merit is debatable. It feels as if it is a manufacturing a nice success story of what appears to be a quality human being into a story of greater importance…And for those who want to raise the flag of racism, I would have the same opinion if it crossed over any other gender and/or race lines. This is purely a journalistic view, the same as if it were a newspaper and the decision to put a story above or below the fold.

by jasonlbe on Jan 4, 2010 4:29 PM PST reply actions  

I played against him twice in high school

He was spectacular, but I never thought he’d be considered an NBA prospect. I was definitely surprised when I checked GSoM to see his pic on the front of a blog. He’s amazing to see play though, I’m glad things are looking up for him.

by Pino on Jan 4, 2010 5:28 PM PST reply actions  

Steve Nash in high school

I am honored to have my write-up on this site and the discussion on it has been great. Thank you all for contributing your thoughts.

I offered this write-up to the PM’s Commish and GSOM because these are 2 athletes that have ties to the Bay (Lin from Palo Alto, Nash being from Santa Clara).

My personal reason for writing this article is that I played against and knew Steve in high school. I have followed Steve to his path to the NBA and Jeremy Lin’s plight reminded me a lot of Steve’s. I am also Korean-Canadian/American, so it does catch my attention that an Asian-American is having some success.

I am not suggesting that Jeremy will have a hall of fame career in the NBA. He may very well be a bench player. I always thought Steve’s story was one of triumph and determination. Steve was always doubted. I wish I was able to find some quotes doubting him because I knew there were plenty. There really was no one in their right mind that thought Steve would make the NBA, even in his own town. Jeremy’s story so far reminds me so much of Steve’s. Even how people are doubting Jeremy are the same things people said about Steve. This is what I was trying to convey.

As far as race is concerned, unfortunately we do not live in a world where we are blind to this. The reality is that it did play a factor in both players. If it was just based on merit, I don’t think these two special players would have received only 1 scholarship offer from a small mid-major between the two of them. I’m also pretty sure that Jeremy is reminded of his nationality at every away game, where the student cheering sections can often be harsh.

Thank you again!

by SMC_DLNY on Jan 4, 2010 6:30 PM PST reply actions  

okay so

where was the love for Japeth Aguilar ? Or better yet where is the love for Eric Spoelstra? Because both are Filipino and not Chinese?

my code name is "kelenna bahongpuki"

by VonteegoCummings on Jan 4, 2010 8:26 PM PST reply actions  

I saw this guy play against Drew Gordon’s Mitty team (way, way hyped) in the NorCal finals. Paly didn’t have any one above 6’6, and it was really doubtful that they’d be able to handle Drew Gordon AND Colin Chiverton (now playing at St. Mary’s). But Jeremy Lin came out and just stole the show. He was pretty incredible. Also, he hit a buzzer beater against BC last year and was on Sportscenter.

by boomtho on Jan 4, 2010 9:04 PM PST reply actions  

Funny

I definitely remember this and not just because of Lin. While Drew Gordon and Chiverton got plenty of attention, there was another Asian kid playing for Mitty in 6’5" Thomas Fang. Fang was an all league player in the West Catholic Athletic League and was instrumental in helping Mitty to the NorCal finals. For those of you who don’t follow high school hoops, the WCAL is known as one of more competitive leagues in the Bay Area so any kid who does well is earning it.

But it was interesting to me at the time that Lin and Fang would duke it out at the highest levels of high school basketball. That’s probably why there’s all this Lin hype. The fact is Asian Americans love basketball but our representation anywhere about the high school level has been marginal at best.

DCL
http://www.behindthewhistle.com

by coach41 on Jan 5, 2010 2:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Fang actually went on to walk on at Cal for a year. Now he just dominates intramurals, beating me every semester in the process.

by boomtho on Jan 5, 2010 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Even if this guy goes undrafted

he’s going to end up in a Warriors uniform next season just for the ticket sales

by wayno on Jan 4, 2010 11:15 PM PST reply actions  

NBA prospects as true PG, not "combo guard"

Wrote these comments on the previous Jeremy Lin blog entry (as 3 comments), but probably more appropriate here:

NBA scouts in stands in game vs. Garcia
This article from the Seattle Times states that 5 NBA scouts were in the stands in the game against U of Seattle, ostensibly to scout Garcia (who had a poor shooting night). No doubt they were also keeping an eye on Jeremy Lin, who had a strong all-around showing (and a great shooting night).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010678380_seattleu03.html

Given the strong showings Jeremy has already had in front of scouts in games vs. Big East competition (which have been his strongest showings), he is a well-known quantity to scouts by this point.

Ford says it’s a weak PG draft
Not sure if someone else posted this (can’t read through all these comments), but something working in favor of Jeremy is the fact that this year’s draft is a weak one for point guards (at least according to Chad Ford):

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4754167&name=nba_draft

Unfortunately, Jeremy wasn’t listed in the top 5 combo guards in that article, but his continued strong showings since then might change that. More importantly, isn’t it important to note that Jeremy is a natural PG, rather than a combo guard? I believe he was a pure PG at Paly (and in the game against Mater Dei) and is playing more of an off-the-ball role at Harvard due to team needs, not because of his skill set.

Not a “combo guard” and Bay Area Player of the Year article
By the way, if you’re newer to the Jeremy Lin story, here’s the article from the SF Chronicle awarding him Bay Area player of the Year honors (after the championship upset over Mater Dei):

http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-04-02/sports/17289185_1_jeremy-lin-mater-dei-palo-alto

He won the award over Drew Gordon (former UCLA player, now transferring out), among others.

Here were Lin’s HS senior year stats: 15.1 points 7.1 assists 4.8 steals and 6.2 rebounds. Seems pretty PG-ish to me, particularly when you consider that Lin led the run to the state title without dominating individual scoring numbers (meaning he orchestrated a group without other serious college-level players to a win over Mater Dei). When you consider that the "combo guard" designation is usually given to players who have been life-long SGs but are too short to play the position in the NBA, and if you believe that PGs are born and not raised, then I’d fight again classifying Lin as a "combo guard" (which mainly includes too-short-to-be-NBA-SG tweener failures like Joe Forte, Shawn Respert, Tony Delk, etc).

by PDY on Jan 5, 2010 12:39 AM PST reply actions  

High school is a long time ago when you’re a college senior. Lin is currently averaging 4.7 assists and 3.6 turnovers in 32.4 minutes per game. As a college junior, he averaged 4.3 assists and 3.8 turnovers in 34.8 mpg. One can rail against the term “combo guard” till one is blue in the face, but those are simply not numbers that scream (or even whisper) “true point guard.” By way of comparison: Ty Lawson averaged 6.6 assists and 1.9 turnovers in 29.9 mpg last season.

On the plus side, Lin’s excellent shooting efficiency and rebounding, even subtracting a ton for the crappy level of competition, are more than adequate for a combo/shooting guard.

The relevant overall numbers suggest that Lin is a pretty good prospect. It’s always better to try to paint a full picture than to cherry-pick numbers to suit your purposes. (Same applies to this diary, to some extent). Most of the hoops nuts who frequent this blog are smart cookies who can figure out when they’re being sold a bill of goods.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2010 7:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Time will tell ...

I feel the cherrypicking of numbers might be working again on the other side here. His assist/TO ratio is not the greatest gauge precisely because he is playing off the ball right now (and I believe most of his TOs are of the traveling/offensive-foul variety, not throwaways, which speaks to the nature of driving the lane a lot when you’re playing off teh ball). And, again, he’s playing off the ball due to team needs, not because of his own skill set.

In any case, we can talk about this until we’re blue in the face, but none of it matters. He’ll likely get his chance to run a team at the Portsmouth camp or other venues (he’s sure to be invited, given that he’s a Wooden award finalist — look it up — http://www.gocrimson.com/sports/mbkb/2009-10/releases/100104_Wooden_Award).

by PDY on Jan 5, 2010 2:48 PM PST up reply actions  

I feel the cherrypicking of numbers might be working again on the other side here.

Haha. Dude, I don’t have a “side.” You can “feel” whatever you want, but the fact is Lin’s high school accomplishments from four years ago are not more relevant to his prospects as an NBA PG than his assists and turnovers as a junior and senior in college.

and I believe most of his TOs… [snip]

You believe something unlikely but don’t bother to research whether it’s actually true? Weak. Until you prove otherwise, I choose to remain skeptical that his game is somehow so different from that of any other college guard that he should be exempt from the most basic measure of PG skills.

It’s pretty obvious you have a horse in this race. I do not. I wish Jeremy Lin all the best. I wish you wouldn’t grace the board with unbridled fanboyism in the guise of serious analysis.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2010 3:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Lin was the best player in the biggest state in the United States in 2006….Lin was the best player on the best team. Yet, nobody offered him a scholarship. Does that seem appalling to anyone else?

Absolutely not. Feel free to get offended by this, and I may be completely wrong, but this makes me think you didn’t play HS basketball? How good you are as a high school player and what kind of recruitment you get are largely unrelated things. For instance, the best player in the Bay Area when I played for my year was in my league. He was a 6’5 white kid, he lead all the Bay Area in scoring, he was strong, had some pretty good skills, could shoot, and had post moves and could rebound. He was also slow. At the high school level, this didn’t matter – he was 6’5, after all, so he had pretty good size for a C, and had enough of an outside game that when he played guys he couldn’t post up he could bring them outside and still present a mismatch.

Then you have Devon Hardin, another guy I played against who went to Cal as a big time recruit and got drafted in the NBA. Hardin was not very good. Wasn’t in high school, wasn’t in college (I blame that 100% on Ben Braun). He didn’t do much against our high school team, despite our lack of size. This other kid destroyed us consistently. Hardin was also 6’11, strong, and could jump out of the building (an indicator of his overall supreme athleticism). So Hardin was the big time college recruit. Yet another kid in our league, simply by being 6’11 and bulky (he wasn’t talented or athletic in any way, shape, or form) ended up being a pretty good player at St. Mary’s. Meanwhile, the best player in the Bay Area ended up playing at Chico because at 6’5, he’d have to play SG in college, and given that he’s slow…well, Chico was about the best place he’d be able to play.

So no, being a good high school player doesn’t mean anything to college, or the pros. In fact, the whole basketball circuit has developed so far (though it’s evolved into a pretty messed up system) that few rocks really do go unturned. If a guy’s got the skills and athleticism, he’ll be playing in camps and at tournaments in the offseason and the coaches will know who he is. Lin’s problem was much more likely that he wasn’t on any premiere teams and wasn’t playing with the Oakland Rebels or Slam and Jam to get the kind of exposure he needed. Or he wasn’t athletic enough to be considered a recruit. Or he wasn’t impressive at camps/big time tournaments (if he attended any). There’s a reason coaches ignore those guys – because for every one that pans out, hundreds would never cut it at the college level. If Lin had everything they usually look for and still didn’t get offered, as I said, it’s an exposure thing (not playing with any worthwhile teams), not a race/ethnicity thing. High school basketball isn’t really where prospects make a name for themselves.

few people remember how often Steve Nash was overlooked and underestimated when they see him now

Frankly, there was a good reason for this. Honestly, Nash barely has the minimum athleticism you need to make it in the NBA. For every Steve Nash, there are a thousand similar players that will never even sniff the NBA. Why did Steve Nash become as successful as he did, then? Well, in my opinion, Nash is the most skilled offensive player the NBA has ever seen. That’s the kind of skillset it takes to overcome his physical limitations to have the kind of extraordinary success he’s had. And even then, it took a LOT of development on Nash’s part before he was even good, much less great. Check out Nash’s early years in the NBA – there was a good reason why he was picked after guys like Iverson and Marbury – look at what they all did in their first couple years in the league, and tell me which one you think was more likely to be the better player at that point? Nash’s career path is extremely, extremely unusual, because he IS the exception – he DID become the best (or one of the best if you disagree with me) player in terms of his skillset in the NBA, and that’s unusual, and not something you should ever count on a player replicating. If you do, almost every single time, you’re going to be wrong. And that’s probably why this Lin guy isn’t getting much draft love – because he’s a senior (leaving college for the NBA earlier correlates extremely high with NBA success, because good players don’t have to stay in college that long), probably isn’t that athletic, and likely never will make the NBA, or have any significant impact on it.

It’s not that he’s overlooked, or disriminated against for being Asian in a significant way, it’s that the odds are stacked against him, because he probably just isn’t that good (when it comes to the overall ability as an NBA prospect).*

*I have never seen this Lin guy play, so I’ll note that for transparency.

by Missing Barry on Jan 6, 2010 8:59 AM PST reply actions  

You can’t coach height. Coaches are always going to try to develop athletic big men because it does take them longer to develop their skills and the potential is much greater than taking a 6’5 post player. Fair or unfair that’s how it is.

Lin is 6’3, which is a good height for a point guard, athletic, skilled and smart. Winning the boy’s player of the year and leading a team to an upset for the state championship is excellent exposure. You don’t think even a small mid-major could’ve offered him a scholarship?

In regards to Nash, even Santa Clara knew they uncovered a gem. He started his freshmen season. Please also see the parts of the article on why he was overlooked. It was completely understandable.

Nash is a lot more athletic than you think. His tests on speed, agility and conditioning were off the charts. I saw him do a 360 in high school when we were just messing around, but I know that he has had back problems since then. But I do agree that he worked very hard on his game.

The Suns knew that Nash was going to be good. They just had Sam Cassell and Elliot Perry, two veterans, ahead of him in his rookie year. The next year they brought in Jason Kidd and Kevin Johnson came out of retirement. He struggled his first year in Dallas because of injuries.

Comparing Steve and Jeremy in the pros is irrelevant right now. It was more about how these 2 special athletes made the best of their situations.

By the way, Lin is very good. Ask Jim Calhoun and the other div 1 coaches that have to diagram plays to stop him.

And yes I was decent hs player on a very good team. Steve Nash remembers me.

by SMC_DLNY on Jan 6, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m sure Lin is very good for a college player – his stats do seem to indicate that. I have serious doubts about his athleticism, though, and certainly doubt that it was the kind of athleticism that gets you noticed if you’re not getting exposure. Winning some games in high school is great, but only a minor part of the evaluation process. Coaches want to see you perform against other college prospects, and you find those in bulk at quality AAU tournaments, and in camps held for legitimate prospects. If Lin wasn’t participating in those (I do not know whether he was or was not), he was losing the biggest pieces of the evaluation process. Beating up on some high schoolers who may or may not (in most cases, not) be college prospects can only make up for a small part of that lost exposure.

Also, we’re looking back on the past – how much of Lin’s game has developed since high school? How much has being able to star at Harvard has developed him into the player he is now? Who knows, maybe instead of going to Harvard he went to some mid-major where he didn’t get to star and only developed into a role player, because that’s the only opportunity he ever got. Dude took a lot of shots his sophmore and junior year he likely never would have gotten at a better school (and how many countless more in practice where he gets to be the man every day?).

As for Nash’s athleticism, nothing I’ve ever seen makes him look like an even average NBA athlete. I tried to look up combine measurements, but all it had was his height (6’1) and weight (187) from the combine. I have doubts his numbers were off the charts without seeing them for myself…

You can’t coach height.

Obviously. Height is one aspect of it. The point is no matter how good a player is, there are minimum physical requirements (in terms of height, weight, strength, athleticism, etc) needed to move up to the next level. Certain guys that are great at one level just aren’t cut out for the next level, while lesser players are (like Hardin vs. Chico kid I talked about). The real point is just calling Lin a great HS player doesn’t mean he’ll be a great, good, or even decent college player (at the D1 level)…of course those skills help, but it just might be that college coaches didn’t think they’d translate. I don’t know much about Lin – if you have real evidence he had everything a coach should be recruiting, I’m open to listening – I just don’t want the kind of meaningless statement like “he was a great HS player for a great team” used in the place of evidence that actually has meaning.

by Missing Barry on Jan 6, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Jeremy Lin can play in the NBA

Jeremy Lin has a good shot to play in the NBA. He needs to improve his shot … get his 3 point shooting percentage up to 40% and FT up to 80%. Nash excelled in those areas back in college. Personally, I compare him more to Steve Blake but it’s hard for me to say until you see him play against NBA like competition … such as the pre-draft camps, NBA summer league, etc. My friends and I have created a blog dedicated to Jeremy Lin because we are big fans. Check out

by JeremyLinBlogger on Jan 7, 2010 12:02 AM PST reply actions  

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