Shifting Sands....
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 3:32 PM PST
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With the entry to a new decade, the Golden State Warriors have some serious thinking to do with regards to who they want to keep and who they want to let go...
In the last two months my personal feelings towards two players have changed drastically, namely Maggette and Biedrins...
CM has been the contract we have been looking to get rid of since a certain person was in panic/blindflap mode, following Baron's departure. BUT...... no one can deny Corey's effort for the Warriors so far this year. His numbers have improved significantly, his distribution has increased significantly, he is clearly having an effect with Monta which came at a critcal time when it seemed the team was destined to implode... he has increased his defensive hustle and in short, has carried this team along with Monta in many games this year...
That alone deserves some recognition and support and if he continues to play at this level, I would like nothing more than for Maggette to remain a Warrior as possibly the best 6th man in the league for the number 3 position behind Buike next year..(I thought this might just have been a break-out year for Buike dammit...)
Flip now to Andris Biedrins...I know many absolutely love the number of rebounds he 'used' to get..but it is clear the guy is possibly a little 'brittle' for want of a better word and where I hoped and expected to see him come back with some form of explosive impact with apparent zest and energy... I watch a slightly gawky guy barely jogging up and down the court to get into position... While I appreciate he is never going to be a great 100 metres sprinter, it's not a good sign when Ronny Turiaf seems to be showing more effort to run up and down the court?
Granted he is coming back from injury, where yes I will agree anyone will look rusty... but he doesnt just look rusty... he looks 'knackered' as we would say here in the UK! Which I cannot get my head around right now as to why? His fitness at the very least, should be pretty high right now.... He also seems slightly 'meh' or too relaxed in his attitude right now judging by his interviews, where you see a focus and determination from the likes of Monta, Maggette, etc..Andris is laughing and joking and does not seem to have many cares in the world? Again...that may just be the guy's personality which is great if it is...but I would like to see a little more... "Yes I know we are in the doo doo right now, but I am going to do all I can" type of thing...
Therefore I ask the question...."Is Biedrins ever going to be a key franchise player for the Warriors?"...if not...due to the relative value he generated in past seasons performances and perceived future value...is Biedrins a more valuable trade piece currently to the Warriors than Maggette for example? While I dont liek the contract of Maggette, I certainly dont want to see us get anyone less productive for the team in place of him...
For me, I see the GSW players with us next year as:
Ellis, Randolph, Curry, Morrow, Buike, Wright, Turiaf and probably Magette, possibly Bell.
Which means we may see trades occur with Biedrins, Radmanovich, CJ, Claxton, George, Moore. (I assume we wont keep Hunter, although I actually hope we keep him and gradually work him into a solid Centre back-up)...
If we were to lose said players and bring in a couple of players maybe a Bosh/Wallace, another useful defensive big and a couple of young bigs/swingmen and maybe keep CJ if we can afford to?
I dont think we lose anything from a rebounding perspective by losing Beans, as the Turiaf-Randolph, or Turiaf-Wright, Bosh-Wright, types of combo take that role... It is also pretty fair to state that Biedrins does not really have a jump shot to speak of, and his free throw..well...possibly the ugliest thing to ever grace a FTL... I have also become increasingly frustrated at the guys complete lack of ability to box out and get hard body contact on opposing teams bigs...
So much as I didnt think I would say this over a year ago... I think I would actually prefer to keep Maggette now rather than Biedrins and hope that we can get some good value for Biedrins with maybe the number one pick, with the 'Radman allstars' as a second package to a team looking for the expiring contracts? in return for a useful, experienced big/swingman?
Does anyone else feel Maggette has played himself into a long term role here at GSW? and maybe Biedrins is not going to be the player we hoped he was going to be?
I thought these two players dserved some focus and discussion....
Over to you GSOM sages of wisdom...
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Something you didn't take into account
A top 5 draft pick. Wesley Johnson or Evan Turner will very likely be available and Buike has a player option. I like Maggs but if Buike returns Maggs may have to leave if we want to work with the rookie. If Buike leaves than Maggs stays.
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
true...
I figured we may be parting with our first round pick though
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
To possibly get the right deal ...IF it came along...
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 5, 2010 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
nice post. i definitely agree that maggette has been playing very well and he’s been getting an embarrassingly little amount of fan support. his contract isn’t great, but it’s not looking like quite the albatross it was last year. if this team were winning and let corey do his thing off the bench, we’d love him. his ugly yet effective game has been an easy scapegoat, but it’s time to stop all that. let’s show him a little respect for how well he’s played.
as for biedrins, trading him and pieces for an upgrade in the front court wouldn’t necessarily be a bad call. i really like what he brings to the team and his contract is great, but i’d be lying if i said the injuries weren’t a concern. if we can get a good deal for him, he’s tradable. i certainly wouldn’t jump the gun and trade him for 75 cents on the dollar over fear of injuries, but he’s movable. no reason for a team as bad as the warriors to not explore every avenue to improve.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
you're a little harsh on Biedrins....
he’s played 3 games. I’m not biedrins biggest fan but he’s going to need a couple weeks at earliest. Bigs take longer to get into game shape.
Yeah I’d trade him in the right offer, but i’m hard pressed trading him for Bosh knowing bosh won’t resign.
I mean what can we feasibly trade him for though? I’d love Bynum, Brook Lopez, M.Gasol, Al Horford and others but it won’t happen straight up
Brook Lopez...
Is another that sprung to mind and I wondered if the Nets would take Biedrins with our first round pick..maybe we might have to throw in another expiring contract? Might they take it?
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 4:02 PM PST up reply actions
for bosh
do it
Cause Havoc. Bring Nash in and 120 point games will be very expected
by monta.da.boss on Jan 4, 2010 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
Holy smokes!
3 games back from a practically season-long injury and you are so disappointed to the point of wanting to trade him? Seriously? Yet you cut Wright enough slack to keep him on the roster even though he’s semi-permanently on the injured list.
Lets have some perspective here. Please.
Monta had 20 points and kept our team close after a year long injury
his first game back.. Why should we cut Biedrins any slack? Turiaf was injured too, but he plays his heart out. Biedrins just looks like he’s a 60 year old playing pick-up games with high school kids.
by A2mm2o on Jan 4, 2010 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
every injury is different. if biedrins is playing through pain and can’t go any harder, it doesn’t make much sense to question his effort. you can question why he’s on the floor, but unless you’ve heard what the trainers have said about his injury, don’t question his effort.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I’m also assuming Biedrens is not 100%, even though he is playing. I don’t know how long it will take to completely heal, but I think we will start noticing improvement as the games go by.
to be honest...
I didnt like what I was starting to see toward the end of last year.. I really think Biedrins needs a Baron style player to feed off and I am not sure we have that now…maybe Curry could become his feeder…
I just look at the players I think I would rather keep for various reasons and I simply cannot come up with enough reasons to keep Biedrins, if the right deal presents itself…but also agree we shouldnt sell him, just for the sake of it..
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 4, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
It is more than just 3 games
Over the summer we heard reports that Biedrins got in trouble with his national team for partying too much. In 5 seasons, can you point to one aspect of Biedrins game that has markedly improved?
He still doesn’t have any kind of low post game, he has no jump shot, his free-throwing is atrocious and doesn’t appear to be improving at all, and as Brit pointed out, none of this seems to bother him.
by randolphforpresident on Jan 4, 2010 8:26 PM PST reply actions
i've seen biedrins in a few clubs in SF
PARTY ANIMAL! Just kidding he’s kind of awkwardly tall (go figure) and pretty reserved.
Biedrins is what he is though, he’s a nice player but by no means ‘untradeable’…. again the issue is what do we get for him? He’s going to have to show he is same player he was pre-injury before we can consider moving him for any value. Would i trade him for horford, M.Gasol, B.Lopez, even jason Thompson? In a second… of course his contract doesn’t match up and i don’t see any reason those teams would do it……
What i dont want is biedrins to be traded for
A) Someone like Bosh or amare with no chance of resigning
b) Someone like Hawes, Okafor or West who may be aesthetically playing w/ a nicer PPG or jump shot, but r worse players
Trade I just thought of…. maybe in summer if hawks just get handed by orlando, cleveland or boston in 2nd round, they decide there front court is too small. They won’t move Josh Smith, so they’ll look for a “Real” center. They still wouldn’t go Horford + fillers for Biedrins… but maybe Biedrins + our 1st (Assuming it’s not top 3) 4 Horford + Marvin (who is in Woodsons doghouse bigtime and will have 3 years 22.5 mil left). I tell you, horford in a team who goes to him more would be as better than current Amare. And idea of Horford, Randolph, Wright, Turiaf front court is ideal
the thing is, even if he doesn’t improve at all anymore, he’s still a pretty dang good NBA center. guys like that aren’t easy to replace. he’s not untradeable, but if we trade him in a talent losing deal or one where we strand ourselves in cap hell for similarly talented guy, it would be a real problem. unfortunately, considering biedrins great contract and skillset, one of those two trades are very likely to occur if we deal him. biedrins plus pieces for a top notch front line guy would be great, but i’m not sure how likely a deal like that is.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Keep Biedrins!
Look, there are very few quality centers in the L anymore. Biedrins is going to work his way back in the fold soon enough, he isn’t like Turiaf who excels because of passion and playing with reckless abandonment, he needs to get comfortable with his teamates, they need to find him and then he gets going.
I think our center duo is a good one – they balance each other out to some degree. Also, if AR plays center at times and maybe BWright when he gets back – then that is a skinny but good front line.
Our problems are with the coaching and with the small forward spot – Maggs is playing great but an injury for him is looming I think. Buike may be great when he returns but maybe not – we need to shore up this position.
wondering if he is just afraid of getting hurt again
I have had a bad groin injury and it was easy to reaggravate for a few months. Beans has been in/out about 2 months right?
I am on the side of trading him for an impact player at any position if the opportunity presents itself. He is a good center, but we need to find a great player to complement Monta.
Even if we get a player like Bosh who may walk, we have a better chance of singing him than most other teams unless the player wants to take a much smaller contract to play for a contender.
why is everyone pro trading for bosh
he won’t stay.
Simple economic theory
Why does everyone on this board like to sell low? You trade players who are currently playing well yet might not play so well in the future, not players who are not currently playing well yet might play much better in the future.
Right?
the warriors don't subscribe to said theory
see: every trade they’ve made barring Baron trade
If's but's and Maybe's
Yes…Biedrins…MIGHT suddenly become the best Centre in the NBA..or he might not. The question I posed is, based on performance, Corey Maggette is actually producing a great deal more for this team currently and possibly next year…Biedrins has a massive question mark hanging over his head in terms of fitness and greater development…is he as good as he is ever going to get??? who knows?
In short…we cannot keep sitting on ALL of our youngsters, otherwise next year could be exactly the same as this year… glimpses of brilliance with no constant reliability and yet again struggling to make the playoffs. I simply dont think we will get an All-star type player for Maggette + Expirings…
The following Team is simply not good enough:
Ellis, Curry, Morrow, Biedrins, Randolph. That is not a western conference winning team.. nor is,
Ellis, CJ, Maggette, Biedrins, Wright…
So we really need to add that star quality player that compliments our young guns perfectly, yet we also NEED the veteran leadership of Maggette in my personal opinion. We can cover the centre position, what we cannot cover right now is that All-star forward that can work with Randolph and Wright when he is at the 3, and then he can switch to the 4 when needed to work with Turiaf/Hunter and we play Morrow/Buike/Maggette at the 3…
I am truly not sure who the player is that we need right now, but out of all our youngsters;
Ellis, Randolph, Curry, Morrow, Wright, Biedrins, I think Biedrins is possibly one of the youngsters we may be willing or ‘have’ to trade to get a quality final missing piece that enable the games of Ellis, Randolph, Morrow, etc to truly shine and to make us a bona fide Western conference challenger.
Assuming we retain Turiaf, Bell, Buike, Hunter….
Unfortunately, I simply dont think Wright is going to trade for any significant value, hence why I have not included him, due to general league question marks over his fitness ability.
I genuinely do not want to trade Turiaf from this team, hence why I have not included him in this as I have said before, I believe he brings more to this team than could ever be rightly quantified by stats alone. He is simply the type of glue/hype/Captain that can gel a team and THAT is a very rare talent and quality. I also see a ‘potential’ great centre in Chris Hunter, the guy came to this team playing a traditional big man role and I think he has become a little confused as to what how he should be playing, unfortunately that is the fault of the mad professor who plays the oddests line ups at the strangest times…sometimes it works..sometimes it simply confuses the hell out of his players…
Anyway….it’s about discussion and there has been some good adult discussion here, which is great….
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 5, 2010 2:58 PM PST up reply actions
If he was really sporting a bad abdomen/groin strain, I would expect his conditioning to be off. That’s an injury that doesn’t lend itself to being able to work out much while rehabbing. His endurance conditioning has never seemed an issue in the past; worrying about right after he’s returned from an injury that kept him out of action for more than a little bit seems premature.
That said, there may be real question marks about his durability. He does seem to have a mounting tendency to get hurt. I’m not sure if it’s often enough to really say he is injury prone, but it’s something that we have to seriously consider.
We also have to consider, when healthy, what he is and what he isn’t. He isn’t a low post go-to guy. He isn’t a physical enforcer. He is an elite rebounder and a capable shot blocker, a guy who isn’t turnover prone and a guy who when healthy has been able to get up and down the floor.
He’s old enough that I wouldn’t expect his offensive game to change much, but I do think that he could be used better than he has been. I do think that his individual defense could and should improve. The question is whether or not he can help bring a player who addresses our needs in a case that isn’t just selling him for pennies on the dollar. We need rebounding. He provides it, provides it like no one else other than Randolph can on this squad. He doesn’t bring all the same things that Turiaf does, but he certainly brings more on the glass.
Chris Hunter has no potential to be a “great centre” (or center, but gotta say, I like the BritishEnglish spelling. He might have potential to hang on as a journeyman, but he’s shown nothing to suggest that his ceiling is any higher than that. Confused or not confused, he doesn’t seem to rebound well and doesn’t seem to be much of a scorer. Given that in college he wasn’t particularly notable for either, there’s no reason to believe that we’ve seen a skewed sample. I think it much more likely to be a stiff who can’t rebound than he is to stick as a quality rotation player, and much, much less likely that he’s gong to be great.
by jae on Jan 5, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
I agree with the majority..
But (and this is only a personal opinon) I have watched Hunter in the games he has played and as a player, his positioning and calm control on the floor has shown some excellent flashes of ‘potential’. Granted he does not have the numbers yet, but I also dont think he has been played with that much intelligence in terms of who they have on the floor with him….
We have not seen anywhere near enough of him and Randolph together, which I actually think could be very effective…Hunter for the big player counter threat an taking some rebounds, while supported with a Beast of a rebounder in Randolph, who does not then need to worry about going man on man with the big guys like Gasol, Howard, Garnett, etc…leaving him better positioned against players like Bynum, etc….
I was the Brandon Wright of my college team, a skinny kid that could jump, dunk, and was very quick up and down the floor, but I had a tendancy to jump ‘straight up’. I took a lot of rebonds, but I learned my lesson when I did just that and had my jaw dislocated on someones head that I did not box out before hand…it still clicks everytime I open and close my mouth and so it is a bugbear/reminder I have everyday…
My point above is with regards boxing out… taking rebounds is one thing, but it is not the be all and end all of a big man. Stopping the big men from getting into the paint in the first place is probably an even greater requirement. Again personal opinion/playing preference and I know the stats may argue otherwise. Which is why I prefer to see a centre as a traditional truly ‘Big fella’ who is then supported by a much more athletic Power Forward who can help in boxing out and thus making the whole rebound process that much easier.
I personally dont see the Randolph/Biedrins combo having enough ‘beef’ for want of a better word, to properly defend our paint. I quite like the Turiaf/Randolph combo, even the Turiaf/Radman combo looked ok… but a player like Hunter has all the physical characteristics of a proper centre and while I agree he has not shown the numbers to date, I watch his game and I see the potential to be the perfect combo with Randolph as a back-up to start and then growin into a starting centre role. He strikes me as the type of player that could pick things up real fast. Hunter actually has a very nice shot for a big guy, he dishes effectively and he completely dominated Greg Oden when he first joied us, which is no mean feat.
Therefore, while I’ll concede that it may be early to claim he could be a great centre, it is also too soon I believe to cencede that he cannot become very good at the very least, WITH the right coaching…
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 5, 2010 4:45 PM PST up reply actions
I just don’t see it in Hunter. Not in the slightest. Yes, Hunter has the size and may look the part, but the results just aren’t there. And looks can be deceiving. Results matter more than looks and Hunter has never had the results (not since he’s been here, not in college) to suggest he’s going to be worthwhile. Given the premium on big men, big guys who can tie their own shoes tend to get drafted too high. That he went undrafted (after a less than stellar career in college) suggests that the big men crazed scouts who are willing to take lottery fliers on O’bryant and the other stiffs who are around more or less always and more or less always become the busts that we’d expect suggests that he really showed nothing.
Yes, there’s the rare sleeper who slips into the second round but turns out to be a beast, guys like Ben Wallace. But they are real, real rare. They are far, far rarer than guards and SF’s who make it later in the draft and as undrafted players. And in the cases where the later picked bigs do make it, it’s almost always a case where they put up some fabulous numbers (usually as vacuum cleaners on the boards) in college but were overlooked because of questions about their height or competition or something like that. Hunter didn’t have that. He didn’t show anything to suggest that he was just overlooked (for any reason other than he just isn’t any good).
If I was forced to bet on Hunter’s future, I’d pick “sub-journeyman” and wouldn’t hesitate to do so. If my life depended on it and I had to predict the future for one player on the team, I think I’d pick Hunter for “sub-journeyman” before trying to predict the career of any other player.
good
That’s your opinion…its worth no more or less than mine…. we’ll see how he does.
However to draw conclusions from the incredbly few minuteshe has had on court for us so far, I think is a little unfair.
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 6, 2010 6:58 AM PST up reply actions
BritW
Good effort here. I see your argument. Keep in mind, however, that we are discussing Maggette and Biedrins in a vacuum, which might not be the case in reality. Actually, they might get packaged together.
I am equally as concerned about the lack of improvement from AB. One of his best qualities early in his career was that he seemed to get better with each game. To some extent, his duties for the Latvian national team inhibit his ability to be 100% every game for the Warriors. This is unfortunate, but it’s not going to change (And I remember watching a Latvian game last year, and they relied heavily on AB on both ends). I am not even remotely concerned about him coming back completely healthy and being a productive player; as noted, he is young, and most of his prior injuries were ankle sprains. But I am kinda disappointed in his lack of development on the offensive end. With a dominant PG like Baron, Andris got to do all the things he was good at: rebound, block shots, run the floor, run the pick-and-roll, etc. Without the defense pulling PG, Andris must carry more weight on the offensive end. We all knew that he was a long-term project when drafted. Very long term apparently. But the recent progress has lacked. Specifically, what we don’t understand is why Biedrins:
*cannot make free throws, something that seems correctable considering he’s been a Warrior since he was 17;
*basically has no jump shot, even from 8’ or so;
*never learned the baby hook from Brandan Wright, which seems like an easy go-to shot for someone with Biedrins’ length; and
*frequently gets relegated to the bench in Nellie’s 2nd half small-ball lineups.
Without putting too much of the blame on the coach staff(s), I feel like Andris would benefit greatly from playing in a system that emphasizes the big man. It has been long thought that Biedrins excels in a super quick up-tempo Nellie-style offense, and while this might be true, his role as center in this type of offense is minimized. Biedrins knows this, which might explain some lack of motivation. If, for instance, he were to play in the Laker’s triangle instead of Bynum, he might be 25lbs heavier with some offensive moves and a clear understanding of his role. Just speculation and hearsay, of course…
+1 agreed....
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 5, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
Got it Backwards
Maggette has been playing well as of late, but is 30yrs old with a bad contract. If we can move him it would be the best thing for the Warriors going into the future as it clears his contract from the cap giving us more room for a younger player with less of an injury history.
Biedrins on the other hand is just getting back from injury and working himself back into game shape. Also, I don’t see many plausible options around the league that would net us an upgrade at center. Bosh and Stoudamire won’t sign an extension to play here and young guys such as Brook Lopez are most likely off limits. It is hard to come by good big men let alone an elite center, so I would rather allow Biedrins to get back to form rather than trade him.
Everyone states Bosh and Amare wont extend here.....
Well Amare I am personally not to fussed on…but seriously….why wouldnt Bosh sign an extension to play alongside the likes of Ellis, Curry, Randolph, Morrow…If I am Chris Bosh, I look at that and think…thats a young talented team and I could take them to that next level…. rather than be in Kobe’s, LeBron’s, Wade’s shadow…
I think the frontcourt of Bosh,Randolph – Morrow/Buike/Maggette is pretty impressive… combined witht he Curry/Ellis backcourt… I think he would love playing with those guys.. or even Turiaf,Bosh, Randolph at the 3…. Oh Mamma!! :-)
"Better a Has-been than a Never-was. But better a Never-was than a Never-tried-to-be"
by BritWarriorGSW on Jan 5, 2010 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
The first thing that wouldn’t appeal to Bosh is to be stuck playing center again, something he is not too fond of.
I also don’t see him extending with us before getting traded as he will want to test his value on the open market. I also don’t see Bosh being bothered to play second fiddle to any of those players you mentioned above, seeing as he would have an even better chance at a championship than here in Oakland.
isn’t he playing center in toronto? whenever i’ve seen them it sure doesn’t look like bargnani is the 5.
I also don’t see Bosh being bothered to play second fiddle to any of those players you mentioned above
he wouldn’t be playing second fiddle. he’d be the best player on the team.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
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