Noah 5/$60M
A little quick and dirty comparison for Warriors fans...
Biedrins / Noah career per 36
12.1 / 11.4 pts
.603 / .563 ts
12.2 / 11.5 reb
1.6 / 2.1 ast
1.9 / 1.8 blk
1.7 / 1.9 tov
(24.1 / 24.8 minutes per game)
It should also be noted that Biedrins' career numbers are depressed slightly by the fact that he came into the league at age 18, where Noah was 22 as a rook.
Biedrins is also over a year younger, and (for people who care about such things) about 10-15 lbs bulkier.
Noah's probably a better defender, but at what point can we dispense with the silly notion that Biedrins, at 4/$36M, is overpaid?
over 1 year ago
Sleepy Freud
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I thought about the same thing this morning
Noah is a good deal at that price, but Biedrins could be even better value, if he plays the way he is capable of.
Thats not a given
if he plays the way he is capable of.
That’s my issue. People want to readily act like last seasons atrocity didn’t happen. If Biedrins returns to 2007/8 form then he’s a good value but lets not act like it’s forgone.
As usual you are all underrating defense. Defensively Noah is sizeably better than Biedrins. That alone makes him a more valuable player. That said, I wouldn’t want him. Thought of having to see Noah in Warriors jersey would make me go insane
But Sleepy is right on his core point. If Biedrins produces like his career numbers indicate, then yes he’s a bargain
by tafkasam on Oct 4, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Defensively Noah is sizeably better than Biedrins.
I don’t doubt that this is true, but what exactly are you basing this assertion on? Noah is slightly better at staying out of foul trouble (4.1 pf to 5.1 per 36, career), though Biedrins has improved in this respect. Biedrins is a slightly better defensive rebounder and shotblocker. Anecdotally, both seem good at moving their feet, hedging, switching, getting in passing lanes, etc. and less good at manning up bulky big men one-on-one.
As far as “last season’s atrocity”: if it weren’t for the fact that he was playing with a serious injury, I’d agree that that’s the most relevant sample from which to make a projection. Given that he was playing injured — and under a coach with whom his relationship had grown increasingly strained — I’d guess that his previous three highly productive seasons are a more relevant sample.
There will be no extra point!
I disagree on multiple points – first, Biedrins “returning to form”. Last year he was hurt. We know he was hurt, because he shut his season down to get surgery on the injury he was playing the season with. Of course it affected his performance. Before last season, when he played hurt, he put up 3 very solid years in a row, where each year he built a little bit on the last, just like you would expect someone in their early 20’s to do. 24 year olds don’t just lose their skills overnight. Everything about Biedrins said he was that player, until a year where he played hurt. He’s still young. He still has all the skills, and the athleticism, he had before. Nothing about him should be different. I think acting like it’s a gamble that he’ll return to form is ridiculous. Maybe it’s not a 100% certainty, but it’s definitely a very, very high percentage chance. He’s healthy now, and health was the problem.
Next, I disagree with Noah being much better defensively than Biedrins. We all love to criticize Biedrins for not being able to hold his ground because he’s too skinny – this applies to Noah, as well. Biedrins is pretty close to him athletically, also very active off the ball (see their equal block and steal rates for their careers, and it’s worth noting Noah’s steals are trending the wrong way)…I really don’t think there’s a big difference there. That Noah’s team plays a lot better D makes him look better. It’s much easier to play good D when you can focus on holding your position instead of worrying about the other 4 guys getting to the rim at will (which they tend to do against the Warriors)…..
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
. Of course it affected his performance.
Did it effect fact he shot an NBA record 16% from free throw line. So much he wouldn’t even go to the rim? I’m not so sure that was injury and not mental
Yes, I do believe it was. As for the FT%, most of that was this thing called sample size. He shot 25 FT’s. Let’s get over it.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
I would bet a lot of money there are other players that have had even worse 25 FT stretches at some point in their career, it just didn’t happen to happen in the single arbitrary time period of “one whole season.”
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
I would bet a lot of money there are other players that have had even worse 25 FT stretches at some point in their career
Hard to imagine anyone with an uglier freethrow than Dre? maybe BenWallace or Shaq are the closest?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 4, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions
And it’s one of those Andris v the field of bad shooters things. There have been a lot of bad shooters in history. I’m confident with all the shots they’ve taken, they’ve produced worse results at some point.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d imagine that Chris Dudley had to have a stretch that bad at one point.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Game logs indicate that Chris Dudley had a four game stretch where he was 2-25 (and probably a bit worse but I don’t have the in-game series to check). That included a single game where he went 1-18.
by jae on Oct 4, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Speaking of Chris Dudley
I believe he is running for Governor in Oregon
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Ha
Well, there you go. 1-18 huh? That sounds painful…
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
That’s Kobe esque!!
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
And Posey is having amother great game.
You're the worst Al Capone
by JohnnyDangerously on Oct 4, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
We all love to criticize Biedrins for not being able to hold his ground because he’s too skinny – this applies to Noah, as well.
Go watch more Noah. He’s a much better post defender. Peskier, uses his length better, frustrates opponents. He’s a lot closer to Camby than Biedrins in terms of defense. Your assertion is solely based on his weight. While he’s not huge he is a very good defender.
by tafkasam on Oct 4, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
i'd say Biedrins is pesky enough
and he frustrates his opponents no lesser than Noah
-he uses his long arms and quickness to not allow oppsing C even to catch the ball
-so many times i’ve seen him stealing ball from behind from Bogut like centers
also quoting Doctor Lee:
A lot of the NBA right now is about team defense. It’s tough to say, ‘hey, Monta Ellis go check Kobe one-on-one and you’re going to stop him and you’re not getting help’. The days of that happening without hand checking are over. You need team defense, you need to have a helping defense, and I think that’s something that everybody needs to improve this year
http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=17454
IMO Andris Biedrins is good at ‘team defense’
Over The Line!
by Lat We N Trash on Oct 4, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Biedrins is an average defender
Not bad, not great. Has his shortcomings and strengths. I think Noah is a borderline elite level defender in todays NA.. Whether that’s cause standards are lower or not, I don’t know. I just know behind the first obvious names (Howard, Duncan) I can make a case Noah is as good a defensive center as anyone.
My only point is that defensive advantage is significant and warrants a bigger contract. Both of them are fairly paid though, as long as they play at level they’ve shown ability to.
See, I think our disagreement is more over Noah’s defense than Biedrins. I’m higher on Biedrins D than you, but I don’t think by that much. I wouldn’t call him elite or anything. That said, I don’t find Noah’s D to be anywhere close to elite. Bulls opponents actually did better on offense this past season when Noah was on the court than when he was off (and keep in mind, his backup is primarily Brad Miller). Last year they did worse. Combine those two years and teams were a bit worse on offense with Noah on the court than off. I think he looks a lot better because he has good defensive teammates, and he likes to yell and move a lot. He has physical limitations, though – he’s not big enough or athletic enough to really be a force defensively. He’s a guy that contributes, but he’s nowhere near an elite level, in my view.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Just for some context, I’d point to Dwight Howard’s on/off court numbers- the Magic were 2.2 points per 100 better defensively with Howard on than off the past two seasons, averaged. That’s with Gortat as Howard’s backup, and I’d rate Gortat as a very good defender – better than Noah. Noah’s numbers were .4 better per 100 over the past two seasons, averaged. That’s with Brad Miller and Drew Gooden as the primary backups over the past two seasons.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
I like Noah as a player (well, I actually hate watching the guy, but I respect what he brings to the table) but I haven’t seen anything that would make me think he’s an elite defender. I’d definitely say above average, and maybe even downright good, but elite? I don’t know. I just don’t see him having that big of an impact on defense outside of his excellent rebounding.
It’s not like I’ve spent any great amount of time studying his defense, but I’d need to hear a pretty convincing argument to even be open to the idea of him being elite.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Your assertion is solely based on his weight.
Not actually. It may surprise some, but I do watch NBA games and take into account what I see. ;)
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you watched Noah play much?
It seems that he is a significantly better defender. Noah is actually really good on D, like one of the top few at his position good. I don’t have the stats to prove or disprove this, (and niether does anyone else) but it just seems that he brings a lot of energy, uses his body well (even if it is a small body), and it seems to affect the whole team.
Still don’t think the means Beans contract is bad, but would I rather have Noah than Beans? Yes.
by freerandolph on Oct 4, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn't say really good.
He’s ok. Really bad in isolations, decent in post-ups. Pretty good defending the roll man.
by Spider Jerusalem on Oct 4, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
He's still sizeably better than Biedrins at defense
Sure he’s not Duncan or Dwight Howard but he’s still a very good defensive player. I’d have to think harder but It’s possible he’s top 5 defensive centers in NBA. If not top 5, he’d be in next group. Biedrins falls much lower.
I can’t believe this is an actual discussion. Homerism at it’s best.
by tafkasam on Oct 4, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not sure how it's just homerism
Doesn’t Synergy keep track of isolation defense? Can’t we pull out more numbers than above?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I can’t believe this is an actual discussion.
If only people would just accept your opinion as fact! ;-P
As wallywagon suggests, if the advantage is that obvious, there should be some actual evidence to support it. I don’t don’t that the advantage exists; it’s just that in the absence of evidence I think it’s always best to remain skeptical.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Oct 4, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Common Sleepy F
Everyone knows that there is not much evidence in the way of defensive stats to support any opinion…
by freerandolph on Oct 4, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
very true
but what does the small amount of evidence say? Hey I like Noah way more than Biedrins (must admit, I have a preference for crazy haired guy who thump their chest and scream like crazy people) and I also care very little about whether a player is in their mid 20s or early 20s when they sign their second contract. That being said, if it’s so easy to say someone is clearly better, shouldn’t some stats show an obvious amount of badassness on Noah’s side, even if we have very little to pull from?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess I should mention here
I like Noah and his craziness and I especially like how he crashes the boards but I think he is a bit overrated in my opinion. Both Biedrins and Noah are capable players but just not the biggest fan (although not the biggest fan of many centers in the league to be honest).
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
As I said above, speaking for myself, this really isn’t a conversation about Biedrins, so let’s leave the homerism attacks elsewhere. It’s a conversation about Noah. I think you’re overrating him, and by a decent amount.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I think you hit it on the head
I think because for some odd reason Noah comes off likable and like he is hussling we tend to think of him as not necessarily a super star but some super contributor when in fact he is contributing but nothing really special.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
Maybe it’s the ‘intensity factor’. Tafkasam has gone on extensively about how AB’s lack of passion and perceived lack of work ethic drive him nuts. It’s not too much of a stretch to say that Noah might be getting some bonus points for yelling and beating his chest.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
The problem is that so many NBA games come down to one or two critical plays. As hokie as it sounds, a guy like Noah who has that “fire” lit all the time is probably more likely to grab you that crucial rebound than a guy like Andris, despite nearly identical numbers. I could do without the chest beating and bulletin board material (and his face), but you can’t really hate on intensity.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Oh I love the intensity I just think of it the other way around
You can’t really hate on somebody just because they aren’t intesnse hitting their chest and screaming all the time is all. If they do the same stuff on the court then they do the same stuff. I dunno, maybe Noah has a slight edge because of it for all I know but to say one isn’t very good and one is borderline elite just because he screams and thumps his chest is kind of silly to me is all.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Hmmm….I’d need a lot of convincing to buy into an argument like that. I would question whether Noah, simply because he’s viewed as a hustle guy*, is actually more likely to make said play, just because it’s in an important situation. I would also want to know how much difference a “big” rebound actually makes in terms of season winning %.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh no! I forgot my * point.
*What does Biedrins have to do to be known as a hustle guy, by the way. The dude does ALL the hustle stuff you want a guy to do, he gets steals, he gets blocks, he gets rebounds on both sides of the floor, he gets putbacks, he runs the floor well…..in short, he does everything you expect ouf of a hustle player except yell and make facial expressions and whatever other superficial things we judge “hustle” players on that aren’t really that basketball related…..
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What does Biedrins have to do to be known as a hustle guy, by the way
probably grow out his hair like Noah (or Amundson).
Well, we lost a whole bunch of games last year because we failed to secure one or two rebounds in the final minutes, giving the other team a second chance to hit a game winning shot.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
how much of that was because of Biedrins though, wasn't he out a significant chunk of the year and hurt when he was out there?
Did he suck at getting rebounds late in the game? Do we have any basis for saying he has sucked in his career at getting rebounds in the 4th?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
How often was he NOT on the floor at end of games cause he;'s free throw deficient
People want to overlook his FT issue as a small thing. It effects his game so much. You can’t even play him last 3 minutes of a game he’s such a liability
See, I don’t buy this argument at all. His FT% is high enough that sending him to the line is not a good strategy. If you expect the Warriors to score at 54-55% TS% (~league average)….well, Biedrins beats that at the line. He’s shot 56% over the last 3 seasons, which includes his 4/25 injured spurt. In his last two healthy individual seasons, he shot 62% and 55%. If he can shoot at those percentages, going to the line is still a quality possession for the Warriors.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 7:39 PM PDT up reply actions
eh not exactly
toward the end of the game, a team usually won’t take their 54-55% TS% type shots until the shot clock runs and you kill as many possessions as possible. That is unless they foul your player who shoots at a much higher rate or fouls Biedrins instead
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Doesn’t the player you foul need to have the ball, though?
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Unless you want it as a clear path foul.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions
True, but on the flip side – in a game where all we needed was one or two rebounds at the end, what if we had secured one or two extra rebounds at some other point in the game? How many of those games are there over a season, and how big of a difference can one player make? How big of a difference can those specific plays at that time make compared to those same plays at another point in the game?
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
And I am still confused
Where has it been shown that Noah becomes a better rebounder in crunch time or the state showing Biedrins sucks at rebounding in crunch time. This seems kind of pointless if we can’t even show it.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Strategy seems to change quite a bit in the final seconds. If you fail to grab the “crucial” rebound, you might be forced to foul on the next possession, or take a rushed shot, or some other less than ideal outcome. In the middle of a game those things don’t really come into play.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Neat
When did we establish that Biens has a bad rebound rate late in the game or that Noah’s rebound rate jumps late in the game?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Dude, please stop hijacking this conversation. We heard you the first time.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Well sorry I just don't get it
The arguement doesn’t make much sense to me and there is a much easier arguement to be made regarding Noah vs. Biedrins late in the game that is pretty obvious and ignored. (just saying it would make more sense than the whole rebounding late arguement)
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
well I was thinking free throw but fouling too I suppose
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
It seems pretty important to the discussion
this discussion could be entirely irrelevant if neither are worse or better crunch time rebounders.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Oct 4, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, but is there a big difference in how it affects your expected outcome compared to at another point in the game, do we know the player is even capable of grabbing that “crucial” rebound at a greater rate than the other, and will there be enough of those times over the course of a season to make a meaningful difference on a teams record? I have many questions I need answered to buy into this.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
do we know the player is even capable of grabbing that "crucial" rebound at a greater rate than the other,
I wouldn’t know where to find that information, if it is indeed kept at all.
You put quotes around “crucial” because you are dubious that a rebound at the end of a game is really any more meaningful than one in the first quarter, right? That’s a valid line of reasoning, except that in the final seconds, the other outcome has already occurred. Sure, the game would be different if Player A had grabbed the first quarter rebound, but he didn’t. He still has a chance to grab the one at the end of the game, the one that could, theoretically, change the other teams strategy to a less-than-ideal one. It surprises me that you doubt this happens all the time, considering how many last second breakdowns we had last year in situations very similar to the one I just described.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I wouldn’t know where to find that information, if it is indeed kept at all.
82games.com keeps crunch time statistics.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Oct 4, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure, the game would be different if Player A had grabbed the first quarter rebound, but he didn’t.
Well, within the context of our conversation, I think Biedrins did grab that rebound, and probably more than 1. Essentially our conversation involves Biedrins and Noah, with the assertion that Noah can grab crucial rebounds Biedrins can’t. Well, Biedrins outrebounds Noah on the whole, which means he grabs those boards at an earlier point in the game, if your assertion that Noah ups his rebounding in “crucial” situations is true.
You put quotes around "crucial" because you are dubious that a rebound at the end of a game is really any more meaningful than one in the first quarter, right?
Eh, not so much that as much as I just wonder how big any difference would be, and how many of those opportunities there really are where one player can really makea meaningful difference over the other.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure if I am allowed to interject anymore but last comment and I am done
The only thing about Biedrins vs. Noah late in the game I can see is Biedrins and his free throw shooting. He can become a big time liability late in the game I suppose with intentional fouls and what not. I guess that is one way Noah would get an edge I guess (although don’t remember Noah’s FT% nor do I think it’s a massively huge difference)
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
82games.com claims Biedrins has a 3% edge in “clutch defensive rebounding percentage” over Noah. That seems too small to draw any meaningful conclusion.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Not really considering Biedrins out rebounds him in general.
So he out rebounds him in the clutch, and overall…what are we even discussing at this point then?
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey Supa! Down here!
Wow that conversation blew up fast…
The problem is that so many NBA games come down to one or two critical plays. As hokie as it sounds, a guy like Noah who has that "fire" lit all the time is probably more likely to grab you that crucial rebound than a guy like Andris, despite nearly identical numbers. I could do without the chest beating and bulletin board material (and his face), but you can’t really hate on intensity.
I don’t have anything against intensity, but I do have something against handing out bonus points for intensity when you are evaluating players. Let’s look at the rebounding again.
AB 12.2 reb/36
Noah 11.5 reb/36
So with all of Noah’s intensity he still isn’t as good of a rebounder as the even keel Andris. Maybe Noah’s intensity and passion do make him a better rebounder than he would be without them, but they still don’t make him a better rebounder than Andris. You can’t look at the record of what has actually happened over the course of their careers and then assume that Noah is actually better than his numbers because he is loud and passionate.
So to make it absolutely clear
As hokie as it sounds, a guy like Noah who has that "fire" lit all the time is probably more likely to grab you that crucial rebound than a guy like Andris, despite nearly identical numbers.
This is not true. Their #‘s aren’t identical, and if anything the edge would go to Andris because he, you know, grabs more rebounds in general. There is just absolutely no reason to make the assumption that you made above. Their demeanor shouldn’t come into play when discussing their production, because any effect their demeanor would have should already be represented in the final numbers.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
by olympicmike on Oct 4, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Maybe Noah’s intensity and passion do make him a better rebounder than he would be without them, but they still don’t make him a better rebounder than Andris.
Maybe Andris isn’t the kind of guy that plays harder when he gets amped up, but it seems you are conveniently ignoring the flipside, which is that Andris could potentially be even better than he is (and concurrently that much better than Noah) if he cared a little more.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I don't think people ignored that because it's convenient but probably because it doesn't really factor in at all
The question wasn’t whether Biedrins was under performing compared to his skill or talent. The question was whether Biedrins is on par with Noah in terms of production and, if he is, then why the heck do people keep arguing he is overpaid?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
I don’t think he is overpaid. I think he is an incredibly good value, among the best in the league. I had also moved on from the direct comparison because, at least in terms of rebounding, it is apparent that Andris is the better player. It’s OK to transition to related topics mid-conversation. Olympicmike’s comment raised that thought for me, so I transitioned…
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
um, okay?
then what exactly have you moved onto then? You claim olymicmike is “conveniently ignoring the flipside” but I am not quite sure why that flipside you pointed out would matter in regards to what olympicmike was saying.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Who cares...
If his arms were five inches longer he might be a better rebounder too. Or maybe it’s the fact that he doesn’t waste all his energy beating his chest that allows him to outperform most centers on the boards. None of this stuff really matters.
He is what he is, and Noah is what he is. You are trying to inflate Noah’s ability because of his histrionics, and that is what we are talking about here.
As hokie as it sounds, a guy like Noah who has that “fire” lit all the time is probably more likely to grab you that crucial rebound than a guy like Andris
Again. You get no bonus points for yelling and beating your chest. If you pull down 10 rebounds enthusiastically, you don’t get credit for 12. The guy who calmly pulls down 12 does though. ;-)
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
That’s a non-sequitur. He can’t make his arms 5 inches longer. He could play harder. Not sure why that’s “hypothetical” (to JAE’s comment, below). If Noah is a better rebounder because he plays harder (as Mike posited), then shouldn’t the same hold true for Andris?
Again, I looked at the stats on 82games and they (partially) convinced me that Andris is a better clutch rebounder, although the sample size is small for both guys. So I’m sorta over that, and have moved on.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I think we are all confused as to what you moved on to
Espeically given you said Mike “conveniently ignored the flipside.” Maybe it was just not how you meant it. I am getting the sense you are just trying to say Biedrins can be even better if he showed more emotion (maybe that frustrates you?) but it came off like you were saying somehow Mike was somone intentionally omitting that or somehow that weakened his above arguement. I think everyone was just confused because it has really zero to do with Mike’s arguement is all.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Haha
Yes, it was a completely intentional non sequitur. At this point, I’m not really sure what your point is anymore.
If Noah is a better rebounder because he plays harder (as Mike posited), then shouldn’t the same hold true for Andris?
My point wasn’t that Noah is a better rebounder because he’s emotional, that was your point. I was just saying that it could make him a better rebounder, but even if it did, it didn’t matter because it didn’t make him better than Andris. For the record I also brought up that the opposite could be true when I said this about Andris:
Or maybe it’s the fact that he doesn’t waste all his energy beating his chest that allows him to outperform most centers on the boards.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
You get no bonus points for yelling and beating your chest.
Are you implying that people love Rony Turiaf because he’s good at basketball?
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 4, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe Andris isn’t the kind of guy that plays harder when he gets amped up, but it seems you are conveniently ignoring the flipside, which is that Andris could potentially be even better than he is (and concurrently that much better than Noah) if he cared a little more.
You’re inventing a hypothetical flip-side and accusing someone of ignoring it. Accusing someone of “conveniently ignoring” (the convenient part implies that it is intentional omission) is ridiculous and unfounded. It’s an intellectually lazy counter charge that you seem to be using to defend a position for which you have zero data. It’s not “convenient” to ignore your unsubstantiated hypothetical. It’s simply paying attention to data rather than conjecture.
by jae on Oct 4, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I get the sense that he didn't really mean to say "conveniently ignoring"
and that he was just merely making conjecture about how he wished Biedrins played with more energy because maybe he would be even better. I dunno, I am just guessing that given his response to me above.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
It isn’t really about showing emotion, per se. I get that he’s not a yeller. It’s that in nearly every postgame interview after a loss, he’s never seemed all that broken up to me. It’s that I’ve never seen him get really fired up on the court when a teammate makes a great play or an opponent commits a hard foul. It’s that in his interview this offseason (which he says was mistranslated, in fairness) he basically said he was comfortable with what he had achieved and wanted to make sure he did not sacrifice his opportunities after basketball for the sake of a few more wins.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Alright
Not really sure how I could argue that either way (heck I didn’t even see the video interviews). I can understand the frustration I suppose.
Just note that when you said the whole “flipside” arguement it made it sound like you were still debating olympicmike’s “Hey Supa! Down here!” comments. That’s why olympicmike said “who cares” since it doesn’t really pertain to his arguement is all.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Yea I dunno, maybe Andris getting worked up wouldn’t make him play any harder. That smacks of a guy who doesn’t really care all that much though. Look, I’m not debating his productivity and certainly not debating his value. I was merely stating an opinion that in a crucial situation in a crucial game (something neither player has had much experience with), I think I’d rather have Noah on my team and Andris on the other team.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
What’s the difference between an isolation and post up? If iso excludes all post up opportunities, I would imagine there wouldn’t be a very big sample of them?
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m starting to notice an overuse of Synergy numbers, in the same way that there is an overuse of WP48 numbers.
The problem with Synergy numbers is that we only have one year of them, so we have small sample sizes and no clue as to how stable they are. I would assume, at minimum, we’d need well over 100 observations for the numbers from any location to stabilize (probably much more), and for most we simply don’t have that.
Hopefully Synergy will release past years of these stats (I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that they’ve been compiling these for several years) with their next iteration of the product so we can get a better understanding of what they mean, but for right now, the service seems like it’s mostly good for the huge amounts of readily available video than for the numbers themselves.
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
Hopefully Synergy will release past years of these stats (I’m pretty sure I’ve heard that they’ve been compiling these for several years).
Just to let you know, you are correct in your assuming or what you have heard. They’ve been doing it for more than one year.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Do you work for them or know someone that does?
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
No I don't work for them but considering I remember Mark Cuban praising their work about 2 or three yeargs ago I knew who they were when they made that offer to go public with some of the information.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Well, I have a whole lot of issues with Synergy numbers at the moment, we’ll see how many of my concerns get answered in the future. That said, I still find them interesting to take into account and at least give some thought to. And when presented with a Synergy number, I like to know exactly what the raw data itself is, so that’s why I’m curious. If you don’t understand the data, it’s tough to figure out the meaning of it, you know?
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Isolations tend to be with the player facing the basket.
Think Kobe vs. Bowen type of plays, or even how Dirk will play his man.
Post ups are more like guarding Dwight Howard or Tim Duncan when they are backing down.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
So then who the heck gets iso’s against Noah?
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Soft 5's like Okur and Bargnani, probably
Those guys aren’t iso specialists by any means, but they’re out in the range where it could happen.
If a player started/played decent minutes and wasn't injured, they usually have a decent number of possessions.
Noah, for example, had 525, including over 100 isolations and over 200 post-ups.
by Spider Jerusalem on Oct 4, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Isolations are usually the most common situation (excluding spot-ups).
It’s pretty straight forward, isn’t it? Post-up involve the offensive player beginning with his back to the basket, and isolations involve any non P&R ball-handling (also includes jab steps, etc).
by Spider Jerusalem on Oct 4, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I should add that I like Noah (the player) a lot ; and think his kind of production is probably worth $12 a year in today’s market. But he’s such a similar player to Biedrins that it’s hard not to make the comparison.
Continuing on that train: before the Boozer injury, it was presumed by many that the Bulls were a virtual shoo-in for the playoffs, possibly the best team in the NBA after the Big 4 (LA, Miami, Boston, Orlando). This presumption, I believe, was based largely on their talented and well-balanced “BIg 3” of Rose, Boozer, and Noah. Looking at our Big 3 of Curry/Lee/Biedrins, is there much of difference? Biedrins has no "post game; neither does Noah. Lee doesn’t play much D; neither does Boozer. Curry needs to work on his assist/TO rate to be considered an elite PG; so does Rose.
Indeed, I’d probably take the Warrior over the Bull in two of those three matchups (Curry and Lee); and if AB can regain his ‘07-’09 form, I consider him Noah’s equal at worst. What am I missing? In what way are the Bulls so far superior?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Oct 4, 2010 7:17 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
What am I missing? In what way are the Bulls so far superior?
They are on the eastern side of the Mississippi?
by Badly Browned on Oct 4, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions
I sure wouldn’t pay $12M to have to look at that face 82 times a year……
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
That face doesn't bother me as much as that mouth
Has he ever said anything good? I feel like he’s a walking ‘facepalm’ quote machine. If I was a bulls fan I’d probably be leading crusade to get rid of him as the main reason they didn’t get Lebron. Whether it’s true or not is irrelevant.
your big four has boston instead of OKC?
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Good point. I would probably take OKC over Boston, even just for the 2010-11 season. I’m talking less about my own ranking than that of the mainstream media, who tend to overvalue big names (something the Cs obviously have up the wazoo) and undervalue youth.
Imagine how ridiculously good the Celtics would be if this were, like, 2001? I mean, even with a 15 year old Rondo, they’d absolutely obliterate the competition…
There will be no extra point!
Boston’s plan of attack is based entirely on the presumption that they will need to beat Miami in a 7 game series. Shaq and O’Neal might not even play 82 games combined during the regular season, but being able to run big body after big body at Bosh and Big Z might be the only way to bring down the Chosen Ones. I for one am rooting for them.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Shaq and O’Neal might not even play 82 games combined during the regular season,
Heh…
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 4, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions
your big four has boston instead of OKC?
needs to make it a big 6 with OKLA and Portland?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 4, 2010 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Portland?!
As in, The Blazers?
No. no way.
Oden is still a question mark, not sure how Roy is going to hold up, and one of their key bench players wants off the team.
No way the Blazers are in the top 6 teams of the league!!
"There's more to life than basketball. I can't play this game my whole life. I'm just trying to figure out what I like to do and meet some cool people along the way." -Chris Bosh
by Duby Dub Dubs on Oct 4, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
and if AB can regain his ‘07-’09 form, I consider him Noah’s equal at worst. What am I missing? In what way are the Bulls so far superior?
Defense. Noah is a strong defender. Bulls as a whole are a MUCH better defensive team than Warriors. Well to be fair, we don’t know how new look Warriors will look defensively. It should be better
I think the Bulls seem to be a tad bit over blown actually
and the West still is more competitive (although yes we are seeing the talent being chipped away little by little at the moment)
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Bulls growth is all dependent on Derrick Rose. What I saw from him in second half of season and over summer, gives me reason to think he’ll start living up to his hype.
People love to say he’s not efficient but basically from January on his TS% was .560. His jumper is constantly improving. Using hoops data he is actually better shooter from everywhere on floor except 3s than DWade and Lebron (which shocked me).
At moment they are overrated, but it wouldn’t surprise me if Rose fulfills his potential. Noah continues his improvement, Boozer plays his game they are a top 3 team in east in coming years.
Yeah, over the whole season he wasn't efficient,
but he really turned it up for the last half. His midrange game was pretty great for the last half.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Oct 4, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it's because....
firstly, the Bulls have players on their roster with legit playoff experience. They’ve been there recently, and consecutively. Now they’ve added an allstar in Boozer. So the progression means that expectations are naturally high.
Boozer/Noah is more proven than Lee/Biedrins. It’s close, but the Bulls are stronger up front, especially with a wiry energy rebounder like Taj Gibson off the bench. Now, there are a couple pieces in the Dubs’ frontcourt that may emerge (Udoh, Wright), but again, unproven is the operative word.
Aside from Boozer’s addition, the Bulls’ complementary cast is, at the very least, more proven than the Warriors. Of the two supporting casts, Korver is the best 3pt specialist, Brewer is the best defender, and the Bulls also have Luol Deng, who is just better than any SF the Warriors have right now in this moment. Players like Dorell Wright, Reggie Williams, Rodney Carney, these guys are still becoming players in the NBA.
The season will tell the real story, but for now, I understand why the Bulls are considered better than the Warriors in the preseason.
I can see where you are coming from
I guess I get a bit annoyed about all the Bulls stuff because a) c’mon, although he is very effective when healthy we all know Boozer is injury prone and b) as much as I love to think of what Rose can do with a jump shot, I would prefer to see it being effective before I believe him (if we are to believe all off season improvements then Reggie Miller would have added about 100 pounds of muscle in the second half of his career — every year they said he gained 10 pounds — and Dwight Howard would be shooting 85% from the free throw line at this point)
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Boozer and Rose leave quite a bit to be desired.
To be honest, I’d take Lee over Boozer based purely on durability and attitude. And there’s no doubt I’d take Steph over Rose. He’s just a more complete player.
by eastbayglory on Oct 4, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Rose is a bit tricky because they really down played how bad his ankle was last year
Plus his jump shot mechanics aren’t terrible, he could technically turn it around. Definitely a boom or bust guy. I just wouldn’t start predicting MVP trophies just yet like some people are already doing.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
Rose has gigantic upside. People love to overlook that when they bash him. And he’s shown continual improvement.
Also when you consider performances like v. Celtics in playoffs in 2009, you wonder what he will be when he puts it all together on a consistent basis.
correction: IF "he puts it all together on a consistent basis"
Just cause he did it in one playoff series does not necessarily mean he can sustain it.
by freerandolph on Oct 4, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Important point in Rose’s favor, in addition to his excellent athleticism, he turned 22 today. Happy birthday, Derrick Rose.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
I dunno, I understand criticism’s of him. But I just feel (and maybe this is too much gut feeling) that he’s got too much raw talent, and desire to not ultimately achieve what he’s capable of. I’m not sure he’ll ever be a high assist guy. Maybe 7 a game. but he can be an explosive, efficient scorer as he showed in chunks.
I think he might have to move to SG eventually. The offense isn’t very good with the ball in his hands.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Eh
I thought he did good over summer in Coach K’s system. But that involves more ball movement. One thing he has in his favor is excellent ball handing ability.
I get what you’re saying, he won’t ever run an offense like CP3 or Nash. But on a team with good team passing he can easily play the point. Is Chicago that team? Eh they have above average passing bigs, but the wings, not so much.
Would have been something to see him with Lebron as they could share ball handling/playmaking duties. but he got a much better version of Rose→ Dwade.
Important point in Rose’s favor, in addition to his excellent athleticism, he turned 22 today. Happy birthday, Derrick Rose.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I would take anyone over Boozer because Boozer is a scumbag and I wouldn’t want him anywhere near my team. Extra negative bonus points for going to Duke.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Is this because of what he did to the Cavs?
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 4, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I am guessing yes
Hey I guess he was at least honest with the Jazz? For what it’s worth, you gotta give him some support for the mustache.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
er beard I meant beard
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
he and his wife steals small children
bloodsweatndonuts just wants to show you just how big a scumbag he REALLY is!
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm agreeing with you.
Only a scumbag would steal Jerry Sloan’s lunch.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 4, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
It took me a minute, but I think I got that joke, and even if I didn’t, MY interpretation of it made me lol.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah c'mon! Why do you have to up and humanize people!
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Eh, he did kinda lied to CLE, but then again when you’re offered waaaaay more money, you’d take it. Is LeBron part scumbag too? He wasn’t exactly dishonest, but how the whole “Decision” thing went down has me wondering….
I have no problem with athletes taking more money. By all means they should go after the situation that fits them best. I do have a problem with the way things went down with Boozer specifically – they could have forced him to stay for at least one more year (where they could have tried to sign him to an extension or something) and gave up that option thinking they had an agreement with him, which he reneged on.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Get money…you know the rest. You have a very short window in which to get paid a ridiculous sum for playing a game. It could end at any moment. Don’t hate.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
It’s not about trying to get paid. I don’t have a problem with that. It’s about being dishonest.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
In all seriousness, the CBA is rigged so far in the owners’ favor that I commend any player who can figure out a way to get what he wants while managing to technically stay within the rules. I have a hard time vilifying someone who lies to a multimillion dollar corporation for his own personal gain. I kind of find it admirable.
If I were a Cavs fan, however, I would think he was a Grade-A scumbag.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Is it rigged that far in the owners favor? I’m all in favor of the players, given that they’re the product we pay to see, getting as much of the revenues as possible, but that doesn’t make it ok to lie and reneg on agreements. I’m all for Curt Flood battling for the right for free agency in court, the Players Association filing a grievance of collusion, threatening to strike, etc – gotta use the leverage you have, but what Boozer did was dishonest and unethical. The owners being in a better leveraged position (if they are) doesn’t change that.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions
All of the following solely benefit the owners:
Salary Cap.
Age Limit.
Contract Term Limit.
Contract Max Limit.
Draft.
Rookie Scale.
Max year-to-year raises
These are all things in place to limit the players’ value on the open market. Basically to prevent the owners from bidding against each-other to establish each players fair market value.
I don’t see how lying is any more immoral than institutional collusion.
Just because it is a rule does not give it moral value and lying to someone who holds financial leverage over you is simply one of the very few business tacics at his disposal. Remember, the Cavs were also trying to game the system by declining his option. If that was “ethical” why didn’t they put it in writing.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Salary Cap.
Age Limit.
Age limit (minimum age) also favors players in the league as it means there’s a smaller pool of younger players to come in and displace vets.
Rookie Scale.
This probably hurts the top player salaries, those at the front of the draft, but the guaranteed contracts for all first rounders most certainly benefits later first round picks.
by jae on Oct 5, 2010 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Age limit (minimum age) also favors players in the league as it means there’s a smaller pool of younger players to come in and displace vets.
I am just guessing, but do you think that the aggregate of all rookies make more money than the aggregate of all “last guy on the roster” players who the extra younger bench-warmers would presumably force out of the league? It’s not just veterans either, it could be D-League call-ups with crappy Jeremy Lin contracts as well. If the pile of money is bigger for the rookies then that is more money earned which would be more money flowing to the union. (I’m assuming the operate on a % of salary for dues, I couldn’t find it in the CBA).
The primary reason it was implemented was to save the owners from having to take more risk by investing first-round money in unknown quantities and wasting one or two years of salary for a player that’s not ready to play. This wasn’t really an issue until teams started to gamble more often on kids.
The rule is there to rig the system to protect the owners from making bad decisions but you could be right that it has a net-neutral impact on current players and the union.
This probably hurts the top player salaries, those at the front of the draft, but the guaranteed contracts for all first rounders most certainly benefits later first round picks.
Unlike the Age Limit, the Rookie Scale as part of a larger market-gaming construct and can’t be evaluated in isolation.
You’re probably right about the rookie scale being mutually beneficial for the last 10-15 picks or so, especially in a craptastically shallow draft like 2010.
Net benefit to either side would be difficult to determine because we don’t know just how much a John Wall or Blake Griffin could command without the predetermined slots, and even that sum would be significantly suppressed because of the existence of the Salary Cap and Luxury Tax.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, but those things were collectively bargained into existance by the Players Union. You can’t just look at things that limit some players pay without looking at things that benefit the players, like getting a set % of revenue, or that something like rookie scales might just redistribute the money among players (more of it going to veterans), instead of negatively affecting them.
The players agreed to the current system. It’s not the same.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
All of the following solely benefit the owners:
No, they benefit the fans and the players too. The game needs some stability and continuity or the attendance will drop. If less people wanna watch the games the players lose, the good of all the players is more important than the good of a few who could sign higher priced contracts.and the less they pay the players the better it is for fans and ticket prices.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 5, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree.
It definitely benefits the fans. It adds competitive balance.
I’m just saying those seven things I mentioned benefit the owners more than it benefits the players. I’m saying that Boozer was at a competitive disadvantage because the owners have the system rigged in such a way that he could not earn what a free market would have paid him. So he lied to some uber-rich guy so he could get paid millions by some other uber-rich guy and I don’t see that as immoral.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I would like to point out that there is one massive benefit for the players that they got when collectively bargaining away a few things: fully guaranteed contracts. I bet owners wish they could get guaranteed revenues. That would be sweet!
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Yah, it’s give and take. Baseball has the most free-market system and its a mess in regards to competitive balance. As I said to Skep, we the fans definitely benefit from the NBA CBA construct.
I don’t think the CBA is evil but it does harm the upper echelon of players and it most certainly reduces the total amount owners spend on salaries.
I bet owners wish they could get guaranteed revenues. That would be sweet!
God forbid they’d have to budget for their payroll based on expected earnings like a traditional business. There are both guaranteed and non-guaranteed contracts in most businesses.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Hard to say – they’re different sports with different amounts of variation involved in determining the outcomes, whether you’re talking a single game or a whole season…..
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I am guessing that you wouldn’t ask that question unless you already knew the answer to it.
It’s very possible that I was citing a popular misconception, I hadn’t really read up on the subject. Are there any good articles on the subject?
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
It was a real question. Berri believes that there isn’t a lack of competitive balance in baseball relative to basketball, but how you measure it is somewhat open to debate. It is a more complex issue than “without a salary cap, there’s no competitive balance in baseball”. There seems to be a few teams that are usually in the playoffs in baseball, but that seems true of basketball too.
The “lack of competitive balance” meme seems to go hand in hand with the notion that small market teams can’t compete in baseball because they are outspent. Anecdotally, there’s 3 or 4 ‘small market’ teams in this year’s playoffs.
by jae on Oct 5, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, 5 of the 8 playoff teams had opening day payrolls in the top half of the league, and most, if not all, of the playoff teams took on payroll over the season. The team that had the smallest payroll that made the playoffs was the Rangers, and being located in between Dallas and Fort Worth, they’re pretty clearly a big market team and the ownership issues they’re going through this year are the cause of their small payroll. The Rays and the Reds, while below average, were still top 20 in opening day payroll. Boston, who was #2, would have made the playoffs in any other division, even despite all their injuries.
Payroll is a huge factor in baseball. People that say “small market teams can’t compete” aren’t right, because the draft (and international free agent market) is such an efficient way of spending money that if you spend a lot of money on amateur talent AND do a good job scouting it, you can acquire enough talent to compete, but ultimately, you’re going to be fighting at a huge disadvantage.
6 teams spent over $120M. The Red and Rays spend $~70M. $50M on the free agent market, if you just get the average rate of return, buys you 11 wins. TB or Cinncinati is essentially starting 11 wins down on a team with a $120M payroll. The Yankees spend over $200M, and the Red Sox were over $160M this season.
by Missing Barry on Oct 6, 2010 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Payroll is a huge factor in baseball.
yeah, just because a small market team can make the playoffs doesn’t mean the playing field is level, it just means that team did a better job under harder conditions.
Any sport that wants true equality of opportunity makes rules to require it. Boxing has weight classes and auto racing has motor size and other equipment rules for examples.
If MLB wanted true equality they could impose rules to do it but my guess is they want the larger market teams to do better because there’s more money there to tap?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 6, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m not saying salary is irrelevant. Salary is a factor. How much of a factor is the issue. It’s not as simple as being able to buy a championship, not in baseball, not in basketball. Some of the variation in wins can be explained by salary. Much of the variation in wins cannot be explained by salary.
It’s also not as simple as "salary cap provides competitive balance, as there isn’t obviously more competitive balance in basketball than there is in baseball. “Competitive balance” can be measured in a number of ways (regularity of making the playoffs; consistency of championship dynasties; consistency of wins from season to season, etc.) and saying that there’s a ‘competitive balance’ problem without stating what that means isn’t a terribly useful statement. When I hear that “baseball is a mess” with regards to competitive balance without more clarification on what the writer means, what he is interpreting as competitive balance, I cringe because it seems 9 times out of 10 it’s just a gripe that his favorite team didn’t win and he’s blaming it on other teams spending more. It rarely means that there’s been any real objective criteria to even describe what one means by “competitive balance” let alone actually applying the criteria across the league.
I’m not objecting to the observation that there’s a link between salary and wins. There is. I’m objecting to the simplification that it’s all about how much you spend. You didn’t say that but many people take that leap and simplify it to that point, when the picture is far more complex.
by jae on Oct 6, 2010 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Since 2000, 23 of M.L.B.’s 30 clubs have made the playoffs, and two of the seven that have not reached the playoffs (the Cincinnati Reds and the Texas Rangers) are on track to participate in the postseason this year.
This discussion question made me curious so I visited J.C Bradbury’s Sabernomics site for the first time in about a year (his book has been on my list for about two years and I have clearly not read it yet) and found this post on competitive balance and revenue-sharing.
The interesting thing about this article is the implication of revenue sharing as an anti-competitive incentive and that that marginal improvement in terms of wins does not create mean extra revenue.
Regardless, one of the practical advantages of high revenue in NLB is that the large-budget teams have a huge advantage in that they can make a bad signing or two and be not be restricted in their roster construction over the life of that contract.
Since the low-budget teams can not simply spend money to erase that mistake, It’s as if some teams are working under salary cap rules while others are not. So for a team like the A’s: Eric Chavez = Elton Brand in a sense.
So, in some sense, the salary cap/luxury tax does prevent some team like the Knicks or from offering luring Lebron and DWade by paying double what Miami was offering but may not do much to “positively” affect the overall competitive balance of the NBA.
Interesting topic.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 6, 2010 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Honestly, I’m not a big fan of Bradbury’s work…..
I’d recommend something like The Book first.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Do you disagree with the underlying production quantification, the financial attribution methodology or both?
Since I haven’t read Sabernomics, all I know is that he tries to place a dollar vale on player production but I don’t know exactly how.
The method I use is complex and involves many steps.
JCB 1 – MB 0
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 7, 2010 9:38 AM PDT up reply actions
He has some sort of regression methodology that produces crappy results. Dude’s pretty low on the totem poll when it comes to economics, he doesn’t engage other smart people that have done good work, tries to reinvent the wheel, and ultimately produces questionable results. Meh, better stuff is being done all over the interwebz these days.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Are you calling him a scumbag?
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 7, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, no, that’s not my intention at all and I apologize if I come off that way. I don’t really like his work. i don’t think he’s trying to intentionally mislead people or anything like that, though.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions
I was kidding. You didn’t come off that way, there was no implication of malice.
I was just trying to bring the conversation full-circle and the word “scumbag” cracks me up for some reason.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 7, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Ha, a big part of communication is lost through the internet. It’s unfortunate at times….
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Not sure if I want to start comparing baseball teams to basketball teams
baseball teams have 25 players at very specialized positions where at least 8 have to hit and you got all kinds of crazy factors to throw in with pitching staffs. NBA has 12 players where 5 are on the court and the five positions aren’t all that specialized and you really could break it down to about 3 really. I think they are very different beasts.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
well if they just left it all wide open and on expected earnings
then good luck to any team outside of LA, Boston, New York, or Chicago
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
guaranteed contracts
Are the players advantage. And they cripple teams. How many stars sign big deals and then get injured and never play well for the team that signed them?
by Uwe Blog on Oct 7, 2010 12:28 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
If there were no CBA, owners would only offer guarenteed contracts to the players who had enough leverage to demand them.
The injured players with the huge deals, the Elton Brand/T-Mac/Grant Hill types, would still get guaranteed deals for multiple years and probably for more money because more teams would be able to bid against each other, not just the teams with cap room.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 7, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree whole-heartedly. Integrity is becoming far too scarce. In order for capitalism to work at all, people must have a modicum of honesty. Otherwise, we just give up our freedom to the gov’t to run everything, which never ends well.
The Golden Glow is the only way to reach the upper level.
Take the long view of history
What always happens? The power consolidates upwards to the few. The masses become increasingly more desolate until they violently revolt and install a new system with new people. Eventually, if not immediately, those that are corrupt, greedy and power-hungry manage to gain control of that new system, change that system to benefit them and so goes the cycle. Over and over and over again.
As long as there are people, the most clever and ruthless will always find a way to cease control and drive the rest of us into the dirt.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
does this really apply here?
I’ll make sure to tell the sentencing judge that I stole the money from the evil banker because he was going to drive me into the dirt but at I have a hard time seeing how this correlates with the collective bargaining agreement. I mean heck, if anyone is being driven into the dirt, wouldn’t it technically be the fans?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
This has nothing to do with the CBA at all. Not even a little.
This is in response to Naiticus’s OT post.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Oct 5, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
ah gotcha
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
firstly, the Bulls have players on their roster with legit playoff experience. They’ve been there recently, and consecutively.
I think you’re right, this is why the media assumes they’re going to be good. And it’s why the media assumes that we’re going to be bad. But it’s – as sleepy points out – a dumb assumption.
Actually, I think lots and lots of fans are making similar assumptions. The only way you can see the Warriors struggling to meaningfully improve over last year (which many players are doing) is to assume that we’re basically the same team, because, well, we hvaen’t been to the playoffs recently. And you see teams that should absolutely, clearly be worse (Utah, Dallas, San Antonio) this year, and people are treating them like they’re going to be just as good as ever.
Having guys with “legit playoff experience” who “have been there recently” is a really, really dumb way to evaluate teams, especially when one of the team’s in question is basically a brand new team, with only two of its top 7 rotation players (in minutes) returning from the previous season (and one of those players is a second-year player, and the other just came off a career-bad year).
and I have zero clue why, other than age, you would think the Spurs would be worse
given they, more so than the Warriors I believe, should have won more games then they did last year and didn’t exactly lose much talent and gained Splitters. As for Dallas, other than age, not sure why it’s so clear they will be worse. As for the Jazz, no kidding they aren’t as talented but they were pretty darn good last year and there is a chance they could have enough to stay competive enough to make the playoffs. As for those three teams, I am not so sure it’s about “legit playoff experience” so much as they still have some darn good players and coaching staffs.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Spurts and Celtics
Everyone loves to knock them. BUT give me either team healthy in a 7 game series. I wouldn’t want to face them
Well, age is an important variable trending the wrong way for the Spurs….
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Well yeah but again I don't think that means they "should absolutely, clearly be worse"
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Do you think age is THAT big a deal in playoffs?
Definitely in an 82 game season and the argument would be, if you’re old you won’t be healthy come playoff time anyway BUT Popovich and Doc the last few years showed clearly, they’ll sacrifice regular season wins to try and keep players fresh for when it matters.
It could technically matter for sure
BUT Popovich and Doc the last few years showed clearly, they’ll sacrifice regular season wins to try and keep players fresh for when it matters.
Technically resting guys and losing home court advantage can definitely matter. Also the likelihood of being more injured matters as well. I just personally don’t like projecting teams as clearly falling apart because of age before the season given we really don’t know whether they are breaking down yet.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
I'd agree with you in general BUT
In there situations no. Just cause the difference between home court without garnett and being road team with garnett is a HUGE issue.
Technically, wouldn’t the age make it a difference between a healthy Garnett and home court advantage versus an injured Garnett and no home court advantage? Isn’t that the difference because of his age? Still hurts a little. Plus, if you rest them there is still the risk of injury given the insane amount of travel and minutes played over 82 games.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
In what way are the Bulls so far superior?
G-attitude? Superiority of coolness??
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 4, 2010 10:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the Bulls are a bit better than us r
But not by much. And maybe only in record, since the East is still, top to bottom, not as strong as the West.
The east coast media has a lot to do with the predictions. I fully expect the Bulls to make the playoffs, probably as a 4 or 5 seed, in the East, and win around 48 games. I expect us to miss the playoffs with about 44 wins. It sure would be nice to get to play all those extra games against Milwaukee, Indiana, Detroit, and Cleveland. Might make us look better than playing the Lakers, Suns, Kings, and Clips.
by Uwe Blog on Oct 4, 2010 1:09 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
My thoughts are very, very close to yours.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the Bulls are a bit better than us r
But not by much. And maybe only in record, since the East is still, top to bottom, not as strong as the West.
The east coast media has a lot to do with the predictions. I fully expect the Bulls to make the playoffs, probably as a 4 or 5 seed, in the East, and win around 48 games. I expect us to miss the playoffs with about 44 wins. It sure would be nice to get to play all those extra games against Milwaukee, Indiana, Detroit, and Cleveland. Might make us look better than playing the Lakers, Suns, Kings, and Clips.
by Uwe Blog on Oct 4, 2010 1:10 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
at what point can we dispense with the silly notion that Biedrins, at 4/$36M, is overpaid?
when Natty stops complaining about paying teachers 50K per year for doing real work.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Oct 4, 2010 9:55 AM PDT reply actions
Biendris
AB is a better player than many give him gredit for. I hope Keith Smart utilizes him in a good way
by Jeffrey Thompson on Oct 4, 2010 10:53 AM PDT reply actions
as of now. noah is the better player
defense alone. you see that guy going against shaq in the playoffs? it was like a giraffe trying to fight off an elephant. the guys got pure heart. he makes the hustle plays on both sides of the court. noah is the guy everyone hates, unless you have him on your team. real graet young center
skill wise, biedrins definitely has the potential to have the better offensive game AROUND THE HOOP in my book. (i put that in caps because noah’s shooting form puts beans to shame. free throws are essential to the game folks)
i won’t exactly call biedrins a “steal” until he shows he’s able to return to old form. he definitely has the team to do so, ball is in his court. all the best to him this season.
per 36 numbers aside, i do think noah currently is a player worth the 5yrs 60 mil. currently biedrins has not proven he will be worth his.
Wow did not expect someone to use an over 35 year old Shaq as an example here.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Noah’s shooting form doesn’t put anyone to shame. Well, I guess he has nice form for a 6th grade girl.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
So is Atma going to defend his position on here?
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 11:51 AM PDT reply actions
What is up with your obsession with Atma's opinion on Biedrins?
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I just find it irritating he goes on the front page trashing him, yet when he's challenged to debate his view he shies away.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Well considering Atma didn't write anything here I don't see how he is being challenged to a debate.
I don’t see the point of calling him out every single time anyone else decides to talk about Biedrins in a positive light. If someone wrote a fanshot counter to an arguement I made previously and then some random third party decided to try and rope me in, I would be pretty darn annoyed.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 4, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
It's been done...
If you are interested in Atma’s take on Andris you’ll find thousands of words on the subject in the archives. You can read them and make up your own mind. There is no reason to think he’s required to defend his opinion every time someone makes a post or writes an article about Biedrins.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
by olympicmike on Oct 4, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, maybe he's just busy today
"There's more to life than basketball. I can't play this game my whole life. I'm just trying to figure out what I like to do and meet some cool people along the way." -Chris Bosh
by Duby Dub Dubs on Oct 4, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
and also, to be honest
I think a lot of fans would like us to improve at the C position.
But Beans is still a pretty good option at C; sure, he’s not an all-star or anything, but he’s young, cheap, and doesn’t suck.
I’m really pulling for him to have a break-out year…he’s still so young too, let’s have a little patience
"There's more to life than basketball. I can't play this game my whole life. I'm just trying to figure out what I like to do and meet some cool people along the way." -Chris Bosh
by Duby Dub Dubs on Oct 4, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
noah
is the better player unless biedrins makes some dramatic improvements.
Noah is clearly the better defender. As for rebounding and points stats on a team like the warriors, due to their pace, those stats are inflated for beans..
His conversion rate, fg %, and ts are a better indicator of his value..
From watching him play, Noah is a better fundamental post player on defense and offense. Perhaps staying in his successful college program allowed him more time to grow and develop. Noah has developed a pretty consistent go to post move and a counter move—so he’s ahead of bied’s offensive development in that respect..
“Pace” is a pretty minimal factor. You’re really not very wrong just assuming it away, and that’s with the Warriors, who are the most extreme team in the league.
I also disagree with your take both on Noah’s offense and his defense. ;)
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions
As for rebounding and points stats on a team like the warriors, due to their pace, those stats are inflated for beans.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=RCdAK
In sum: even after adjusting for pace, Biedrins over the past three seasons has been
• a better rebounder
• a higher volume scorer
• a much more efficient scorer
than Noah.
Noah’s trends look a lot better, but that brings us back to the injury discussion. It’s conceivable but unlikely that Biedrins, at age 24, has somehow completely lost the game he had when he was 21-23.
There will be no extra point!
noah also averages
nearly a foul less a game than biens, despite playing aggressive, frenetic defense. I would chalk that up to sound defense..
I agree with the scoring points (volume) somewhat..from the view of offense..beans is more dependent upon teammates to set him up (see when BD was his pg).
Yet, I watched J.N. play late last year and he consistently had a go to move (jump hook) and a counter. He can finish in traffic, but also has the ability to create his own shot—and as someone noted convert at the line. So I feel his value from here going forward at least offensively is greater than AB.
Watching AB he has tried to develop a post up but isnt there really..however he does attack the glass relentlessly and has excellent timing and hands. I think the next step is really to develop 1 or 2 low post moves that can be effective against centers not named Dwight.
It's also a huge bias of sleepy to disregard FREE THROWS
in his comparison. One player can play end of games. The other cannot. That’s a huge difference in my opinion
that was the one thing I said in the middle here that I was shocked nobody brought up
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
Homerism
Biedrins is a good player but the way he is overrated just irks me. It almost makes me appear like a Biedrins hater but I have to bring some semblance of reality. Just cause he scores efficiently and rebounds well doesn’t mean he’s 2nd best center in NBA. He’s far off actually, he has many holes/deficiencies. Doesn’t make him poor but you’d get the feeling some people feel Biedrins=60 win team
the way he is overrated just irks me.
Oh, you mean like this:
Just cause he scores efficiently and rebounds well doesn’t mean he’s 2nd best center in NBA.
some people feel Biedrins=60 win team
Yeah, nobody is actually saying those things except the voices in your head.
You just constructed an approximation of a human being, but you made him out of straw, and now you are putting a burlap sack over his head with the name ‘Sleepy’ scribbled on it with permanent marker, and you expect us to believe that the imagined musings of this creation of yours are the actual arguments of our own Sleepy Freud?
How’s that for a run-on? I guess I could have just said ‘Straw-man’!!
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
by olympicmike on Oct 4, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
You just constructed an approximation of a human being, but you made him out of straw, and now you are putting a burlap sack over his head with the name ‘Sleepy’ scribbled on it with permanent marker, and you expect us to believe that the imagined musings of this creation of yours are the actual arguments of our own Sleepy Freud?
That may be a run-on sentence, but it’s one hell of an awesome run-on sentence.
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
It’s not a run-on sentence. But I’ll agree, with zero objectivity, that it was awesome. ;-)
That said, I should probably have mentioned FT%. I mean, it is already included in TS%, and it doesn’t really matter as much as fans generally think (Shaq wouldn’t have four rings if it did). But yeah, I’d be lying if I said AB’s FT woes didn’t upset me. I’d do jigs if he could get his FT% even within 15% of Noah’s.
I should note, returning to one of the original topics, that as a threesome, Curry/Lee/Biedrins are roughly equal at free throw shooting to Rose/Boozer/Noah.
There will be no extra point!
Well...
I didn’t take the time to read it again, but I was sure i left out a conjunction or something in there somewhere. I guess I lucked out.
As for the topic at hand, I’d also love to see improvement from AB at the FT line. It’s easy to look at a guy with a hole in his game and say “that’s not acceptable” but it needs to be taken in context of his entire game. Biedrins has some serious weaknesses, but when you put it all in perspective it doesn’t hurt his game all that much. At the end of the year, when you add it all up, he still manages to score with extreme efficiency.
It reminds me of when people would complain about Maggette taking “ill-advised” jumpers when he could “get to the line at will.” Well, whatever he was doing, at the end of the day it was working for him.
I mean, sure, we’d all love for him to improve his FTs, but it’s kind of nit-picky when the guy puts up 12 and 12 per 36 and does it efficiently. I guess people like swagger, and if you don’t have it people assume you aren’t playing well or aren’t trying or something.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
It reminds me of when people would complain about Maggette taking "ill-advised" jumpers when he could "get to the line at will
I agree because thats probably a good shot. It keeps the defenses honest. He can’t drive the ball everytime you know? Taking a bad shot or two that set up 4 or 5 of his drives is smart.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Taking a bad shot or two that set up 4 or 5 of his drives is smart
Hmmm….so doing exactly what the defense wants you to do rather than doing the thing that makes you an extremely efficient scorer is a good strategy? I don’t really remember anyone closing out hard on Maggs to prevent him from jacking up 18 footers (which, were it the case, would make him taking a few of those shots a good strategy).
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Curry/Lee/Biedrins are roughly equal at free throw shooting to Rose/Boozer/Noah.
How often does curry get to the line? Considering how little he goes to the basket and draws contact, will that change?
You'd be surprised Rose doesn't get to the line often.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
despite his rising FG% from everywhere at the end of the season, he was still posting a fairly pedestrian TS%.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Oct 4, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
his TS% from january on was .555 (I believe), possibly higher
When I have time i’ll go manually recalculate it. I just recall doing it in past in a similar debate. It coincides with when he got over those knee problems which hurt his mobility.
cLearly we’re talking sample size of only about 40-50 games. But then again thats about 1/4th his career
There’s no reason it can’t continue to improve.
edit
checked: .551 TS% from january on. 48 games. Much better record too….
I expect him to get better, but i just think he's not a good primary ball handler.
I feel as if he’s a slightly better Monta. Not very good with the ball in his hands, but much better off ball. I just can’t get over the fact that Chicago’s offenses have been attrocious with Rose as the PG.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think he’s like Monta at all. He’s a good ballhandler, and he’s not much of a threat without the ball. The dude has a lot of natural skills, he’s only been in the league two years, he just turned 22 – he was better than Deron Williams was at the same age, for instance….his skillset is definitely more suited for primary ballhandler than off the ball.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 7:08 AM PDT up reply actions
But he's a pretty bad passer, and it seems not that good of a scorer on ball.
When they played Hinrich with him, and Kirk took some of the ball handling roles, they were more successful.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 5, 2010 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I would disagree with your take that he hasn’t been that good of a scorer on the ball. Thus far he hasn’t been effective, but he’s only been in the league two years, and he has shown things to indicate he may be effective in the near future. His efficiency significantly improved from year 1 to 2, which is a good sign. It should continue to improve. His volume is good, and really, he was only slightly below average efficiency. For a 21 year old, that’s not a bad sign at all. Plus he has the raw skills, so all he has to do is turn that into effective basketball – all part of the normal aging curve. He’s not a good passer, but it’s not like he doesn’t get his teammates involved at all, he doesn’t compare too poorly to say, Tony Parker……
Just keep in mind the difference between what he’s done in the past and what we should expect him to do in the future.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Tony Parker meets Dwayne Wade
For me is a good comparison. Wade’s a primary ball handler with similar assist numbers.
Like I said, if he’s supplemented with good passing wingers there are no issues. Ball movement
Unless he picks up his rebounding, he’s more like Tony Parker meets Tony Parker. He’s big and athletic enough that he should be able to pull better than 3.7 boards per 36.
I also can’t figure out why he can’t even muster one steal per 36. I know steals aren’t a great measure of D, but 0.7 steals and 1.4 fouls per 36 from a 6’3" guard just bespeaks defensive laziness to me.
Through two seasons, Rose hasn’t been anywhere near as good as Stephen Curry was as a rookie. He clearly has all the physical tools to get there, but he really needs to start putting it all together.
There will be no extra point!
Especially a 6’3 guard blessed with a freakish wingspan and excellent athleticism.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions
He actually does share a few similarities with Monta.
Not in styles of play (necessarily) but their end results are similar. Similar TS%, similar FTR, similar %AST, similar USG, similar shot distribution (except Monta takes threes, Rose doesn’t), similar rebound rates.
They both take a ton of 16-23 foot jumpers (but Rose actually makes his at an above-average rate), they both take a ton of shots at the rim yet hardly ever get to the free throw line (Rose is a below-average finisher at the rim, though. A huge problem considering how often he can get there). Obviously they’re very different players who play different roles on the floor, but they both have the same efficiency bugaboo: too many long 2PAs and avoiding contact at the rim.
by Spider Jerusalem on Oct 5, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
.551 is good,
but it’s not spectacular. It is slightly above average.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Oct 5, 2010 12:15 AM PDT up reply actions
didn't say it was spectacular
But it is above average and shows steady improvement from the wild shooting rookie.
I do think he'll improve
taking his better shooting into next season. Because he doesn’t get to the line, his TS% will always be pretty low as a guard.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Oct 5, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions
He could always improve that.
And possibly extend his jumper out to 3.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 5, 2010 7:28 AM PDT up reply actions
It's unlikely
But his midrange game could continue to improve. I’m looking more for higher percentage at the rim and more trips to line. Offensively I really think his game will resemble Dwayne Wade, who also is just not a good 3point shooter, but still pretty efficient
I don't see him being close to Wade honestly.
Wade’s much stronger, a better rebounder, and much better defender.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 6, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
But it’s not a comparison of 21 year old Rose to 28 year old Wade. He’s talking about what Rose will be. Wade is much better than his 21 year old self, too. He was still at Marquette at that age. Is what Wade accomplished by the time he was Rose’s age as impressive as what Rose accomplished? How likely is it that Rose follows the development path Wade did? Those are the more relevant questions.
by Missing Barry on Oct 6, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't see it likely he ever becomes the type of player Wade is but you bring up legitimate points.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 6, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly what MB said
Wade at Rose’s age was on par in terms of strength, super explosive.
Keep in mind Rose is same age now as Wade as a rookie.
Rose is a star in making. He just needs to continue improving on path he has. by all assessments, he’s a hard worker and motivated individual. He’s got all the potential to be among the elites.
If you wanna look at numbers you can;
Rookie Wade per 36:
16.8ppg
4.7 apg
4.2 rpg
3.3 to’s
.530 TS%
Lets just hope Rose looks toward becoming more of a efficient scorer, good passer, good rebounder, and good defense player, which i believe is possible
rather than a player who’s all about scoring like Melo (which i see possible as well).
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 6, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
A real question: why did you put much, much more than half your single sentence post in the title line? What it the appeal of the title?
by jae on Oct 6, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
My bad Jae, going through some rough times.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 7, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Rose-colored glasses...
He just needs to continue improving on path he has.
He didn’t improve that much from season one to season two — not generally a great omen for someone’s chances of attaining “elite” status. Youth excuses him somewhat for his mediocre shooting and assist numbers, but it doesn’t really excuse his mediocre rebounding and poor steal totals. Chris Paul at age 20 was pulling over 5 boards and 2 steals per 36 (in addition to being better than age 20 Rose at almost everything else).
Obviously, Rose has real — wait for it — “potential” for improvement, but you could say that about a lot of young players: Beasley, Jennings, Jrue, Randolph, Love, Thabeet, Griffin, Cousins, Turner, Wall et al. Not all of these dudes will morph into Chris Paul or Dwayne Wade or Kevin Garnett or Dwight Howard.
Right now Rose is just a pretty good guard. He hasn’t performed as well in the NBA as Curry (who’s six months older) or Evans (a year younger). Beyond that, all anyone can really say is “we’ll see.”
There will be no extra point!
He didn’t improve that much from season one to season two —
Not true, as I’ve said time and time again. We all saw Rose grow in playoffs. Everyone thought he’d have a big 09/10. But he entered season hurt.
Look at Rose from january 1 on. The rough point where he gained full health to his knee.
From January on:
48 games
22.5 PPG
TS%- .551
6.3 apg
4.0 rpg
and team improved from 13-19 to 28-22. And if i really want to be a stickler about it. Christmas is when he turned it around winnign 3 games before beginning of year where he was the best player.
He improved his scoring mightily. He can continue to work on being a better playmaker than a 6 assist guy. His defense looked to be greatly improving over summer with Team USA. I’d take him over every ‘potential’ guy you listed except maybe JWall
Gimme Griffin, and maybe Love or Cousins instead of Rose. What can I say, I like good big men.
by Missing Barry on Oct 6, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I suppose thats not unfair
And minus Love i’d agree. Love’s lack of athleticism and size will always keep him from being a legitimate first option in my opinion where as the other two have ability to be perennial all star bigs.
I just am a big fan of Rose. I don’t get why people want to tear him down considering his age, potential and growth. I thought he was impressive over summer with team usa and more than anything I saw defensive growth. He’s got more upside than every young PG minus Wall.
I don’t get why people want to tear him down
I didn’t see anyone “tearing him down.” The fact is that thus far he hasn’t been anything special in NBA. That’s not really up for debate. You seem to want to build him up into something more than he has been thus far. That’s cool — as you say, you’re “just a big fan.” I like his game and think he probably will improve. We’ll see how much.
There will be no extra point!
The fact is that thus far he hasn’t been anything special in NBA. That’s not really up for debate.
I think he’s done some special things actually. Sure he hasn’t done it consistently. But Playoff series v. Boston for ex. He needs to it more consistently, I won’t deny that at all. And he needs to learn to use his physical gifts to play good consistent defense.
Otherwise I can’t really say anything you just said is unfair.
I’m really not even sure that playoff series against Boston was that good. Game 1 was, sure, but aside from that? He averaged under 16 points per 36 on 52.7% TS%, about 5 rebounds and 5 assists per 36, with 4 turnovers and less than half a steal for the whole series….
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you’re undestimating Love a bit. First, he’s just as big as Blake Griffin – slightly shorter, but also slightly heavier, but with the exact same wingspan and slightly better standing reach. Second, he’s already a pretty good player, and he just turned 22.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes but Griffin’s athleticism is off the charts v. Love. Love is an excellent player, but his physical limitations stop him from being a #1 scoring option. Griffin could be Malone/Amare level offensive, and if he applies himself like we think he can, he will be a good rebounder and defensive player too.
I don’t wanna do comparisons but Love will be a #2 o #3 option on a team who is probably underrated by league as a whole. His lack of size impacts his scoring in post v. bigger PFs who know how to use there length, you can’t play the offense thru him same way you do Gasol or Dirk for example. He is an excellent rebounder (possibly best), passer and intelligent player. Griffin could be more. Thats all… Still think Love is awesome and minnesota looks like the winner in the whole mayo/love trade. Memphis… could you imagine if they kept him with Gasol, instead of ZBo moved for a SG.
Plenty of guys succeed as post players without excellent athleticism. I really don’t see a reason Love can’t be a #1 option – he really isn’t that far away from it right now.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Love has had problems in post with bigger defenders
And will continue to. He can’t jump, and he’s not overly big. Doesn’t mean he isn’t an excellent player but it’s a limitation.
Good post moves and footwork can overcome that. Love’s strength is an asset down there, too.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes but Griffin’s athleticism is off the charts v. Love.
I cringe when I hear that someone has “off the charts” athleticism.
Yes, I realize that the combines don’t capture all that is involved in ‘athleticism’ but they’re something of a proxy and I’d imagine someone who had “off the charts” athleticism to perform well above the norm. Griffin had a half inch advantage in vertical leap (I’d put that in the realm of what could vary from day to day), a slight advantage in the agility drill, but was slower in the sprint. Could Griffin be a better athlete? Sure. But is it “off the charts” better than Love? Nothing really suggests that.
I think that Love’s “athleticism” seems to be downrated for reasons other than how he actually performs in athletic endeavors.
Don't get me wrong
Love is an excellent player, and I’d love him on my team. But he has physical limitations Griffin doesn’t. He struggles in post against longer defenders cause he can’t get up high and he’s not the tallest/longest. Doesn’t make him bad but these are things Griffin doesn’t have same issue with.
As someone who actually really liked Griffin coming out of college
I don’t recall him being particularly long. I would also question his physical limitations given he had knee surgery.
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
by wallywagon11 on Oct 7, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m also not a fan of reading too much into Team USA performances.
by Missing Barry on Oct 7, 2010 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Disagree on the upside
There are 3 other PGs his age who had more than 400 minutes last year – Curry, Westbrook, and Beaubois. Right now, he’s slightly “below average” for that group. He did well the second half of the season – but all three of the others performed better.
Arturo Galletti has a great post comparing Rose to other PG’s (including those 3) here. Well worth the time, even if you’re more interested in how Steph stacks up than Rose.
Baseball is a chamber orchestra. Football is a marching band. Basketball is a modern quintet. jazz, rock, hiphop, pop/ all about the beat./ still my revolution not/ til you dance through it.
Rose has the advantage of being a former #1 pick. Being drafted high colors perception for quite some time. He was supposed to be better. He was supposed to have more “potential”. Even if he doesn’t out perform some of the other players, many will consider him “better”.
by jae on Oct 7, 2010 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions
I know I give him somewhat of the benefit of the doubt
knowing one of his ankles was insanely messed up early in the year but he tried to play through it. That being said, I’ve seen some ridiculous hyperbole this offseason about him (which actually helped me in my fantasy auction where I have Deron Williams, Chris Paul, and Collison at the point with Felton as my 4th point guard. Yessssss!)
"Once again i still dont get it. We have the best backcourt in the league. 1 of the best front courts in the West. A nice bench. What team in the west cant we compete with besides the Lakers? What team in the west u guys can look at and say damn they’re much better than us? Seriously? Not being a homer at all." ~ J-Ridah's Golden State Warriors analysis.
One thing to keep in mind on the other side, is that Wade probably improved a whole lot more than normal to get where he is today.
by Missing Barry on Oct 6, 2010 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks, Olympicmike
You just constructed an approximation of a human being, but you made him out of straw, and now you are putting a burlap sack over his head with the name ‘Sleepy’ scribbled on it with permanent marker…
You just gave me my Halloween costume for this year….
by BlueInTheFace on Oct 5, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I often get very defensive of criticism towards Biedrins because the two things that you listed that he does well, scoring efficiently and rebounding, are very important and he does them extremely well. I think he is often very underrated by non-Warriors fans. He does have some glaring holes in his game, most notably free throw shooting and post defense, but they are holes that a team can game plan around and minimize and maximize his skills that are very valuable.
However, I don’t even think in my defense of Biedrins I would call him the second best center in the NBA or say that he is the difference between us and a 60 win season.
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
I’ll just chime in to point out the original comment in the post was trying to dispel the notion that Biedrins is overpaid, rather than hold him up as an elite C, which I think we all agree he is not.
by Missing Barry on Oct 4, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
One player can play end of games. The other cannot.
Says who? I wouldn’t run an offensive set through him, but in almost all situations he would at least be on the floor doing what he does well.
Also, TS% (which Sleepy cited above) does factor in free throw shooting, and gives it the appropriate level of importance in scoring efficiency, unlike yourself who seems to exaggerate it’s importance greatly.
Seems to me that your comment is a grand oversimplification and chock full of bias in its own right.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Also, TS% (which Sleepy cited above) does factor in free throw shooting, and gives it the appropriate level of importance in scoring efficiency, unlike yourself who seems to exaggerate it’s importance greatly.
Not really true. Situation-ally you will go to the line A LOT more at the end of half’s than early parts of games.
If you have the ball in your hands.
It’s pretty safe to say you don’t run possessions for AB at the end of a half. So the only way he gets the ball in his hands is via rebound – which he’s more likely to get than Noah. Then, the value of his putback is higher than Noah’s. So you don’t play him because he had a streak of 25 bad foul shots?
That’s just crazy talk.
Baseball is a chamber orchestra. Football is a marching band. Basketball is a modern quintet. jazz, rock, hiphop, pop/ all about the beat./ still my revolution not/ til you dance through it.
Yes it does...
TS% does in fact appropriately factor in missed FT’s.
Situation-ally you will go to the line A LOT more at the end of half’s than early parts of games.
This is usually only true for your ball-handlers. How many times have you actually seen hack-a-Dre employed? Thanks to Shaq it’s not even legal to intentionally foul a player off the ball at the end of games anymore. This can’t be as big of a problem as you seem to think it is.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Right but any pick and roll to him would be immediately fouled
Thus rendering him a liability on offense. Even if he gets back to 50%
Sure
That’s why I said I wouldn’t run the offense through him. If you want to run a P&R you’d obviously use Lee. He’s not a complete liability though, because if his man doesn’t play him he always finds a way to get open at the rim. If he does get open at the rim you have to get him the ball because he converts at such a high rate. They might foul, but it would likely be an and-1 (or more likely an and-almost-1). He’s made plenty of key baskets near the end of games over the years. It’s definitely not a situation where he can’t play at the end of games like you said.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Even if he gets back to 50%
What do you mean “back” to 50%. He’s at 56% over the last 3 seasons combined. 50% would be a drop.
by Missing Barry on Oct 5, 2010 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Is this the same Noah...
with the chronic plantar fasciitis? And no it’s not some kind of marijuana.
Noah kinda looks like Opio??
ESPN KNOWS THE TRUTH!
Noah looks like one of those pothead runaways on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley...
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Oct 4, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
$60 mill is a lot but Noah was vital part of the Bulls playoff success. Biedrins has been in the league for how many years? He hasnt done anything as of late injury or no injury that proves that he can produce WINS and not just decent STATS. He played well in the 48 win 07-08 season, sure. But he wasnt always our primary center night in and night out—Al Harrington shared minutes with him at the 5 as well.
And Al Harrington is garbage.
So it should show you he was the only big man on team that went to the playoffs and barely missed the playoffs.
Your political posts are a bit like the flu, Natty: they come around every few months, they suck, everyone wishes there were a cure, but all you can do is let them run their course. Carry on if you must — I’m staying home with my vitamin C and OJ. Ciao.- Sleepy Freud
by GovernorStephCurry on Oct 4, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Noah was vital part of the Bulls playoff success
What “playoff success”? The Bulls have never won a playoff series with Noah. They’ve also never won as many as 48 games with Noah. Indeed, they’ve never been over a .500 team with Noah.
He played well in the 48 win 07-08 season, sure. But he wasnt always our primary center night in and night out—Al Harrington shared minutes with him at the 5 as well.
From ’07/08 to the present, Biedrins has averaged more minutes per game than Noah has.
Noah has performed better than Biedrins has in the playoffs — a large part of the reason so many people think he’s better than Biedrins, I suspect. Then again, when we talk about their playoff performances, we’re talking about sample sizes of 11 and 12 games.
There will be no extra point!
As far as centers go, Biedrins is good, smart, and fits our team. His contract isnt crazy but he needs to play better this year. He cant regress.
If he plays well, this team will be strong. You can almost rightfully assume that Curry, Ellis and Lee are going to play well. I can see Biedrins playing well and giving a big boost to our team but i can also see him struggle. If that happens, i can see this team struggle.
If Dwright plays well it will also give our team a huge boost. i would see that as more of a very pleasant surprise, though.
And Posey is having amother great game.
You're the worst Al Capone
by JohnnyDangerously on Oct 4, 2010 6:16 PM PDT reply actions
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