Is Jamal Crawford "Player X"?
I don't know why, but this thought just suddenly hit me as I was thinking about the Warriors and what Matt Steinmetz said. It really seems like a perfect fit to me. Jamal Crawford has the height and length (he's 6'5") to defend the bigger guards, is very athletic, can catch fire shooting the ball quickly, is even the NBA's reigning Sixth Man of the Year. Throw in the fact that he's an expiring contract (and less and less likely to be offered a new deal by ATL with the new CBA looming around the corner), and that he isn't happy about ATL's (apparent) disinterest in negotiating a contract extension, and I really think he may be that "Player X" Steinmetz feels the Warriors need to contend for a championship.
Granted, Jamal parted with Golden State on bad terms two years ago, but I mean, that whole thing was typical Nellie/Player drama and Nellie isn't there anymore. Why wouldn't the Warriors want him backing up Monta Ellis and/or Stephen Curry today? Especially if they can sign him on the (relatively) cheap. I mean, as far as I've heard, ATL hasn't even talked to him about an extension. I'm sure Jamal would at least be flattered by the gesture of an up-and-coming Warriors team recognizing his talent with something reasonable (for a veteran who's 31-years old after the season ends). And I mean, I dunno much about Jamal Crawford's credentials as a defensive player, but with his length and athleticism, one would think that he could immediately provide some relief for our starting backcourt against some of the taller guards on the defensive end. At least in theory. If he's not enough, we still have Dorell and Reggie there anyway.
Like I said, I dunno why, but this just hit me and I feel like it's gold. Have I solved the mysterious "Player X" situation? What does everyone else think? Am I Krazee? :D
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Well, presuming we end up making the playoffs this year,
and then Vlad Rad and Gadz come off of our books, and people realize the Warriors are serious with their entirely revamped organization, what about then? Crawford’s a non-restricted free agent. So, I’m lookin more at next season, really.
Jamal Crawford has the height and length (he’s 6’5") to defend the bigger guards,
What he has in height, he losing in ability and/or willingness to defend bigger guards. Or smaller guards. Or elementary school junior varsity guards. Crawford may be 6-5, but he plays like he’s 5-6. He shows no ability to defend anyone.
Why wouldn’t the Warriors want him backing up Monta Ellis and/or Stephen Curry today?
Because he’s among the the worst defenders in the league, a guy who doesn’t come close to rebounding worth a damn and…geez, I’ve fallen for a troll, haven’t I?
He's not a troll
Not by a long shot, if you were in the gamethread you’d have witnessed a troll…. But it is a dumb idea
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
So because someone has an idea you don't agree with it's dumb?
Having Jamal on the team is not all about his defence. The extra offensive shooting capability he brings, I personally feel counteracts to a certain extent that which he lacks in defensive prowess.
I have been and remain a fan of Jamal’s both as a player and a professional sports athlete and he seemed to like being in the bay. If we could have him cheap… I’d take him.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 4:45 AM PST up reply actions
because someone has an idea you don’t agree with it’s dumb?
Out of curiosity, Brit, what do you think qualifies an idea as a dumb? Or is there just no such thing as a dumb idea?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 6:17 AM PST up reply actions
Whose to say what is dumb or not Sleepy?
But to answer your question… take a gun that is passed to you, that you have not checked, put the barrel in your mouth and squeeze the trigger…. could most probably be called ‘a dumb idea’.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
For me, sure. For humanity? — hmm, you could be onto something… ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 1:24 PM PST up reply actions
Is he really an offensive upgrade over the backup guards we have now?
Or, rather, will have by the end of the season by the tin Lin gets his feet wet?
Furthermore, on a team which thrives on ball-movement is adding a chucker – even if he were, individually, an upgrade – going to help the team offensively?
on a team which thrives on ball-movement is adding a chucker
That is the point. Jamal doesnt fit the job discription for what the Warriors need in a backup point guard now. We need ball control, passing and defense. Offense would be nice as well but we have that.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 12, 2010 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
That's the point...
I think we have actually lost some significant shooting capability. CJ and Morrow provided with some very hot hand nights. Other than Curry and Ellis, I just dont see that extra big points shooter anywhere on the bench? Now bear in mind that I consider Jamal a 2/shooting guard and thus a back up to Ellis, not a ball handler true PG.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it's a real shame we don't have an small forward who can hit those threes ...
(Another board I’m on has a convention that people use purple text when they’re being sarcastic. I’d be using that option here if we had it).
And Reggie definnitely has the ability to light up the scoreboard even if he’s started slow this year. (not purple).
Reggie is not even close...
If a player lights up the board for 50 points its rare…. to do it twice is bloody impressive. Personally I feel Reggie is good…but not a game winning player.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Uh, dude.
Neither CJ nor Morrow are 50-pointers, either, and THAT was the comparison you were making, not Jamal.
The main thing Jamal Crawford’s large per-game point totals say is that he’s willing to jack up a ton of shots.
Worth pointing out:
Career TS% P/36 3%
Jamal .525 17.2 .351
Reggie .582 16.2 .357
It’s absolutely nonsensical to talk about Jamal being in a different category scorer than Reggie, even if you look at Reggie’s numbers being skewed high because of a small sample size.
Uh DUDE...
I was comparing Reggie to Jamal, not CJ and Morrow. I merely commented that CJ and Morrow have proven really ‘HOT HAND nights’. Reggie has not yet. So please don’t tell me who I was or was not comparing. My language was actually very clear with regards Morrow and CJ.
Again you completely fail to understand the point I am making… I simply do not see Reggie as the type of player that could carry a team and score 50 points not whether they compare in the long term over a greater period of games. So THAT is why I think he is in a different category to Reggie.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
Reggie hasn't had "hot hand" nights?
So, somehow, his 29 against Pheonix and his 28 against New Orleans don’t count? Why? Because you’re a fan of round numbers? What’s the logic here?
Is it just that he didn’t hit that “magic” number of 50?
You know how many games it took Jamal to score 50 in a game:
He did it, for the first time, in the 78th game of his 4th season, which was his two-hundred-and-forty-second game.
His 242nd game.
Reggie, in his career-to-date, has played in 33 games. Incidentally, in his first 33 games, the most points Jamal scored?
13.
So basically the claim that somehow Reggie can’t score like Jamal does is completely absurd.
Basically, Reggie is a better scorer now than Jamal is, now. Reggie is a MUCH better scorer now than Jamal was at a similar point in his career. The fact that Jamal has scored 50 in a game (and why is that a meaningful metric in any way, shape, or form?) is entirely a function of the fact that Jamal is willing to throw up 34 shots, whereas Reggie plays with some discipline.
There’s absolutely nothing in Reggies game which should suggest that he’s incapable of scoring 50 points in a game. Thankfully, he doesn’t appear to be motivated by such superficial benchmarks.
Reggie is a better scorer than Jamal. Period.
AGAIN.........
You either fail completely to understand the point I am making…or are simply too tone deaf to accept anothers view as that of their own…however…no matter what you attempt to say from your own opinion perspective….
I disagree. PERIOD.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 13, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
You should admit your situation...there would be more dignity in it.
Jamal Crawford does not fit our system. He is also not capable of running a team, or guarding point guards.
Having Andris and Lee on the same team undoubtedly awards us more possessions on offense, but the idea is to maximize the potential of them. If you out-rebound the opposing team by 8, and Jamal puts up 5 missed FG’s out of those 8 extra possessions….then what good does having Andris and Lee down there for you really serve?
A volume scorer is somebody who needs a lot of shots to paint an offensive masterpiece on a gamely basis. Monta is our Michelangelo. Coppola and Kubrick have never shared a set. The canvas is not big enough for two scoring artists to devise the offensive conjecture, while collectively and effectively involving other teammates in the game, keeping their rhythm. Especially when one of these “artists” only ability is to shoot – a lot. Between Jamal, Monta, and Curry…how many shots do you expect to go around them, especially when Jamal has proved to be most valued as a volume scorer? It’s absurd.
Jamal scored 50 twice. Have you heard of Tracy Murray? It sounds like you’re distributing the wealth of your credit to a guard who shoots an awful lot of outside jumpers, on a team who’s very identity centered around speeding up the pace of the game to allow as many attempts as possible. That is not our team anymore.
Smart seems to be on a program that suggests our squad should have the versatility of option, which would imply that we at some point slow the game down, and play more of a set, half-court style. This also implies that the game will slow down defensively as well. This means that we will be involved in a paradigm that requires a physical style of play. It is through this physical style that our offense is rewarded.
How can Jamal Crawford possibly begin be able to make this trade off in convicting fashion? Aren’t we going through this very problem with Curry right now? Wasn’t that the main beef people had with the Curry-Ellis tandem, in the first place??
I’m starting to get very annoyed with Curry’s inability to stay in front of his man. I’ve served inanimate objects violent beat downs, and yelled at helpless animals because of this…And now you want Jamal Crawford and Curry guarding the two most offensively initiative positions in the game at the same place at the same time? That’s really what you want…
Listen to Ronald and you may learn something, still. You are the one who is turning a deaf ear. Reggie is a more valuable scorer than Jamal, for many reasons.
1. Reggie gets to the basket, gets to the line. I would not consider him a shooter. When the game slows down, which Smart is intentionally trying to teach our team to do, missed jump shots from long range often result in fast break points the other way. Guess who averages a large amount of missed jump shots from long range?
Jamal’s style is most effective off the ball, coming off screens. When he has the ball, it’s side to side – pull up.
Reggie is both effective off the ball because he has shooting touch from close to long-range, and his movement with the ball is vertical. You do not consistently draw fouls any other way, and drawing fouls plays into Smart’s design of slowing down the game.
2. Williams offense comes without the expense of ball movement, and he scores within the discipline of the playbook. It is common to see him score 15 points when you could’ve sworn that he only had 8. This is because he picks his spots, dribbles less, and gets to where he wants to be on the court.
When you dribble less, naturally, you leave more time on the shot clock. This increases your team’s chances of finding the correct shot and converting. Since Reggie is only one of the many scorers on the team, it is important that he is decisive and in correct position, otherwise he is disabling another capable scorer, and altogether blemishing his team’s chances to find a weakness in the defense. There is 18 seconds.
Since Jamal is a horrible defender, atrocious rebounder, and volume scorer, he will need the ball to extract any kind of value he has. This means that either we run isolation plays for him, or he will break up plays to create offense for himself. He over-dribbles, he shoots contested shots on a regular basis, he doesn’t move enough without the ball (it’s extremely hard work to do consistently…similar to defense) and he isn’t aggressive on the drive.
If our team lacked scorers, then Jamal would be a good option because he can create something out of nothing. We already have that something, we just need a player who can sustain it, and refine it. There is right and wrong Brit, obviously. “That’s foolish. You pick the one, right tool.”
by lilboots on Nov 14, 2010 12:57 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting read....
Which would have been so much more enjoyable without the lecturing of what I ‘need to do’.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 14, 2010 5:33 PM PST up reply actions
Forgot to add...
I would simply rather have Jamal in our team, (if cheap enough) instead of Bell. I have never stated Jamal should replace Reggie, I like Reggie as a player, but I simply have never seen Reggie do something ‘a little special’ or that makes me go ‘holy cow that was impressive’ Yes Reggie is more consistent, but if I am not proposing we lose him from the squad… Why is it an issue if we have Jamal instead of Bell?
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 14, 2010 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
Reggie's nose for the ball
is something that has continued to amaze me. I’m not being trite, it’s true. His ability to find the ball, more importantly, find the sweet spots on the floor where the defense is weak, is something that he does extremely well, and on a regular basis.
This is an entirely different element to scoring that I think most fans overlook. It has nothing to do with shooting, ball handling, or leaping. It is completely a sixth sense within the game.
Just out of curiosity Brit, are you female?
I know Brit means you’re from Britain, and it’s not short for Britney, or anything…Forgive me for sounding patronizing earlier, but it just appeared that you were sticking to your argument a little too tightly. I think your points were faulty.
I don't think you'll see any argument against replacing Bell -
- although I’d prefer to replace him with a player who thinks more in terms of distributing the ball first, rather than shooting.
Our ball movement gets a lot more stagnant when Curry comes out of the game. Replacing him with a player like Jamal isn’t going to help that. It’s also hard to imagine that Jamal would be happy with a role the size of Charlie’s. Jamal expects to be a rotation player. 12mpg isn’t going to make him happy and therefore he could be a disruptive influence in the locker room.
(This is especially the case because he’s in a contract year, and he knows his PPG numbers are what are going to get him paid).
It seems like a bad basketball fit. That isn’t a defense of Charlie Bell, but there’s got to be a better fit out there than Crawford.
Actually can see Jamals value if he is at about Morrows or CJ’s cost level and we used him like we did Morrow. It seems that is what you are saying here. Jamal was way overpriced for what he brings at least at this moment in his career. As a possible 2nd or mostly 3rd option when a spark in outside shooting is needed. We have had way too many games now without much outside scoring/scoring slumps and I am guessing that has been why you are thinking of Jamal.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 14, 2010 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
Its just that our biggest need is a back up distributor with defense at Point. Lin “might possibly” be ready down the road for that role if he continues on an upward curve of developement. So far he is showing up tempo energy, defensive tenacity and ability to penetrate with some flash of passing. He just needs developement. I would rather see a few more minutes for him than Bell.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 14, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
Morrow,
God bless him, was not much of a basketball player. He’s an outstanding shooter, but he’s sort of a one trick pony. I’d cringe when he’d lead a fast break, or get caught in a double team. I’d hold my breath when he was trying to make an interior pass over a fronting defender, and I would say a little prayer for him when he’d find himself on the other side of a dominate scorer.
Loved his attitude, loved watching him shoot, but he’s not that great of a basketball player. My point is, is if you’re goal is to find somebody to fill in Morrow’s shoes(A guy who can only shoot), then I’d still rather have a player who can pass, defend, rebound, and handle better. Jamal can never be a catch and shoot player, because he loves to handle the ball, and he’s a good ball handler. Similar to asking Reggie to play point, it’s just not a natural element of his game, to refrain from putting it on the floor. He grew as a point guard.
Our minutes should be used as wisely as possible if we’re going to add a player to the Curry, Ellis, Reggie, Wright group. We need somebody who hide’s their weaknesses in different line-ups through his own strengths. Jamal does not possess such strengths.
Thanks OIF...
The first person to actually truly understand the point I was making. Others may not of agreed, but this is exactly my thinking., especially as I like him for his many other qualities that he can bring to a team, outside of his natural basketball weaknesses. As I said from the very beginning… if he was cheap enough, I would gladly have him back.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 14, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
What is your point?
We miss some quality that Jamal would provide?
Nonsense. We have that quality. We have it in Reggie.
There is nothing Jamal can do that Reggie can’t.
There is nothing Jamal can do that Reggie can’t.
I don’t know about that. There is nothing good, or useful, that Jamal can do that Reggie can’t, but there are certainly somethings he can do. Like a crossover, step-back 22 footer. Never seen Reggie do that.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 14, 2010 4:38 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed Rev...
I have never seen Reggie break the ankles of ‘supposedly’ great defenders, whereas I have watched Jamal on many occasions create a shooting opportunity from such moves. But again just an aspect I enjoy of his game. But clearly I am not permitted to have such opinions, without being spoken to like I am a basketball imbecile for such opinion.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 14, 2010 5:40 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve also never seen Reggie waste a possession by shooting a step-back 22 footer, one of the worst shots in basketball. Jamal Crawford is good for getting an open look from a bad spot to shoot. That’s pretty much it.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 14, 2010 7:00 PM PST up reply actions
Well,
I clearly stated in my post that I was unaware of his defensive prowess (if any) as a player. But at least in theory, shouldn’t he be expected to adequately share the defensive load with our starting backcourt, Dorell, and Reggie? I mean, he IS a professional basketball player. And one who’s a Sixth Man of the Year at that. Oh yeah, and he also holds the NBA record for career four-point plays (24). Interesting little tidbit, I think.
defensive prowess (if any)
Definitely none at all. He’s one of the very worst defenders in the league.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 11, 2010 12:30 AM PST up reply actions
You would think. But seriously, as much as I ripped on Bargnani the other day, if there’s one player that rivals Bargnani in his defensive and rebounding ineptitude, it’s Jamal Crawford. Jamal Crawford couldn’t guard a rock. He’s that bad.
by Missing Barry on Nov 11, 2010 8:33 AM PST up reply actions
Jamal Crawford is player X
Where X = glorified chucker who doesn’t rebound, doesn’t play defense, seems to have stopped passing, and doesn’t score efficiently, with the exception of last season’s outlying career year. Plus he turns 31 this season — an age when players typically start to decline.
Heck, as long as we’re mooning over our old cast-offs, I’d rather have Player Y or Z: CJ Watson or Anthony Morrow.
The piece the Warriors need to contend for a championship … seriously?
There will be no extra point!
Morrow lit it up for the nets last night.
Reggie works fine as a back up for Monta but there is a big gap between Curry and Lin.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 11, 2010 11:30 AM PST up reply actions
I agree. I think Lin has the potential to be a solid NBA backup combo guard, but for now I still cringe when he gets any minutes while the outcome of the game is still in the balance. Someone on this board recently mentioned Mario (superintendent) Chalmers as a possibility for back up PG. He intrigues me somewhat: young but experienced, smart, athletic, a good defender from a good defensive “program”, probably friends with Dorell. Seems like a marginal-but-real upgrade over Lin at this stage of their careers; and he could probably be had for a song, since he’s currently getting zero burn in Miami (likely ’cos his mediocre perimeter shooting makes him a poor fit alongside LBJ and Wade).
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 7:12 AM PST up reply actions
Agree Sleepy, we can live without the perimeter shooting in our backup point needs.
But I do think that we need a good distributer with low turnovers, passing skills,ball handling etc. that keeps the team chemistry flowing when Curry is out. Let Monta and D Wright handle the outside shots. Kirk Hinrich ? Chicago wishes they had not cleared him out now.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 12, 2010 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
The players we "lost" this offseason are not doing well
AR is having much the same issues in NY. CJ is making Bulls fans frustrated by his lack of PG skills (which makes sense, it was a foolish signing due to our style enhancing CJ, and we know he can’t defend.) Morrow is getting all kinds of minutes but isn’t really doing that much with them (and we know his D isn’t that good) despite one or two good games.
I love how so many rued these “losses,” yet it was kind of clear they were targeted based on inflated minutes and numbers due to all our injuries and style of play.
We will hear a lot of talk about Smart this year, but it’s really been Riley that’s brought this team out of the depths with a slew of smart moves and non moves, i.e. letting the right guys go, recognizing who really was worthy or not.
by supersugarCrisp on Nov 12, 2010 10:23 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Tollie and Turiaf have been our biggest losses, judging by how they’re doing this year. Tollie is the energy guy off the bench for Minnesota and Turiaf is the defensive man for New York. Plus, Turiaf was just cool.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
+one+one
Would agree with the comments above by Crisp and Nat. With hindesight seeing BW looking wimpy and Udoh/Admundson hurt Tolliver would be nice to have at this moment, but I see the logic of Riley parting with Turiaf and T.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 12, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
I think we’re missing Tolli right now because he is a better player than Vlad Rad, but we let him go to sign Lou Amundson, who is an upgrade.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 12, 2010 2:01 PM PST up reply actions
OK, I gotta plead ignorant
as to any and all flaws that Jamal Crawford has as a basketball player. I just haven’t watched dude play much. What I have known, and what has inspired this thought was a) he won the Sixth Man of the Year award playing on a successful team in 2009-10 and b) he’s capable of scoring 50 points easily (as we saw in his last stint here two years ago). Anything else, I can’t really argue or debate. But I think getting a bench player with those credentials (let alone as an addition to our currently deepish bench, minus Vlad Rad and Gadz) is a formula for building a serious title contender a year from now. I mean, we don’t lose much to get him, and we could very well get much better, AT LEAST offensively.
he’s capable of scoring 50 points easily
If he could do it “easily” why doesn’t he do it every night?
Well, the Hawks don't need that from him.
They are a good, deep team afterall. I’m sure that coming off the bench he does whatever it is that’s needed of him well (except play defense and rebound, apparently) though, because he’s the reigning Sixth Man of the Year.
Dude, did you mention that he’s the Sixth Man of the Year™?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 11, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
LMAO.
He IS the Sixth Man of the Year!!!!
because he’s the reigning Sixth Man of the Year.
I pay very little attention to that sort of award. They’re more akin to popularity contests than a measure of the real worth of a player. I don’t think that the voters for such awards have more insight than the average fan, and the average fan looks at PPG and monster dunks and ignores more or less everything else.
6th Man of the Year generally goes to a guy off the bench who scores a lot of points, generally on a good team. It is not relevant how he scores points (though Crawford has, for the last few years been average to better than average efficiency) and all other aspects of the game are more or less ignored. The voters will ignore that someone can’t defend, can’t rebound, can’t do many, many things. These things matter to winning games. Awards often times do not correspond well to things that win games.
[To the voters, it is not relevant in ATL’s case that they were already a pretty good team before Crawford (and their improvement is much better explained by Josh Smith stepping up his game considerably and Horford arriving as a top tier big). ]
I do respect your opinion on many things statistical Jae...
But I also feel you have some opinions that are utter nonsense, as you may feel do I. To say "The voters will ignore that someone can’t defend, can’t rebound, can’t do many, many things. These things matter to winning games. "
So what does scoring 50 points on your own do in a given game to help winning games??? Again for Sleepy to call that ability “a chucker” is a joke as well.
I appreciate you may not like his defensive capability, but there are few players that can turn on that level of scoring potential and just get ‘on fire’ for one or two games. These might just be games when everyone else is flat as a pancake and you just need someone to step up… so to be so sweepingly dismissive of any value at all, I personally feel is unwarranted and unfounded.
As I have said before… it is not ALL about the stats… sometimes there are games that are just critical for a playoff run and on a given day a player that is ‘statistically’ useless in your opinion, might just have a huge game, that contributes to that all important ‘win’ tick in the box and thus his contribution is extremely hard to measure. What if the season comes down to that single win to reach the playoffs (it happened to us before). How much is that single win game worth then???
Having played the game reasonably, I do get annoyed when I hear fans who have never played the game at any form of reasonable level, failing to understand that even a player who is deemed poor in one area can often be a huge help in other areas. Jamal is a field captain… I lost count of the times when he last played for GSW, that he rallied the young guys together. Thereafter I watched players working harder together for a period after that pep talk. That is not something you can analyse statistically, but on a given day, it might just be enough to get other players through a tough patch in the game. Therefore it adds value.
I would take Jamal over Charlie Bell any day of the week (PROVIDING) we could get him cheap. He is the type of player that may not be a team changer for a championship, or any form of reliable defensive beast, but as a piece to use to help increase or share the load of scoring….again, providing he is cheap enough, I see his inclusion in our team again as a good thing.
I think this is a great piece to show the quality he adds to any team.
http://www.nba.com/video/teams/hawks/2010/04/18/THROUGHOUREYESJAMAL-1293713/index.html
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 5:13 AM PST up reply actions
Again for Sleepy to call that ability "a chucker" is a joke as well.
Dude, what do you think a “chucker” is? If one didn’t have the ability to score 50 points, one wouldn’t be a chucker. I think of a chucker as a player who (1) loves to shoot; (2) shoots a lot; (3) shoots at a reasonably good but not elite level; (4) shoots his team both in and out of games; and (5) does very little for his team other than shoot. By that definition, Jamal is textbook, imo.
I would take Jamal over Charlie Bell any day of the week
Haha, as would everyone here I suspect. The difference between being better than Charlie Bell (your straw man) and the type of player this team needs to contend for an NBA championship (this diary’s contention) is fairly huge.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 6:25 AM PST up reply actions
To say "The voters will ignore that someone can’t defend, can’t rebound, can’t do many, many things. These things matter to winning games. "
So what does scoring 50 points on your own do in a given game to help winning games???
I mentioned rebounding and defense in the context of what votes do not seem to pay attention to. Your response vis a vis scoring 50 points per game is ridiculously close to nonsequitur. Voters don’t pay attention to those things. They do help win games. To put up other things that may help win games doesn’t change anything about what I said. It’s difficult to have a conversation when someone is responding to what he thinks I said, not what I actually wrote. It feels very much like you are not responding to what I wrote here, but some parody of what you think I’ve written.
so to be so sweepingly dismissive of any value at all, I personally feel is unwarranted and unfounded.
Unfounded? I do not think that word means what you think it does. My foundation for dismissing him is that he’s a total zero in half the game. It’s not based on “stats” but watching him play and noticing that he couldn’t defend a drunk hedgehog. I am dismissive because for most and perhaps all of his career, he’s not made teams he’s played for better most of the time. Don’t pretend that I’m presenting a “stats” argument that you can easily dismiss with the “it’s not ALL about stats” line. I’m presenting statistics here. I’m presenting observations of reality. The delicious irony is that you don’t seem to realize that saying that someone scored 50 points in a game is a stat.
You like Crawford as a player. I don’t. If you expect me to give your opinion any value at all, claiming that a position that I’ve presented actual evidence for is “unfounded” seems rather dismissive and hypocritical.
Just out of curiosity...do you speak to people like this face to face?
I actually tried to make my initial response to you quite civil. I don’t feel your response gives me the same respect.
But to answer your observations. I am quite well aware of your commentary about rebounding and defense in the context of what you percieve the voters not to consider….however you ended that with, and I quote so that you are well aware I read very carefully “These things matter to winning games” My point about the ability to score a 50 point game is actually perfectly valid as this has nothing to do with rebounding or defense but can ALSO be equally important to winning games and I was asking you….(the question marks gave that away) Does the ability to score a 50 point game not also matter to winning games (and yes I worded it slightly differently but the same point was made)?
So feel free to have a conversation with someone who actually understood perfectly what you said, but I have no control over your inability to try and understand the point I was making with my 50 point observation. But thank you for the usual tone.
Next point.
Again…take a note of your own preaching here. I was very clear in my use of the words ‘I personally feel is unwarranted and unfounded’ You may not agree with my observation but you have done little to prove to me that Jamal Crawford is a “Zero” at half the game. Again your statement on this is sweeping that he cannot defend a drunk hedgehog. I have seen Jamal pick peoples pockets and close them down turning them away from a play they intended to make. Thus it equates to more than zero from my observations.
For the record, again you didnt bother to read and understand the point I was making regarding stats versus other matters. The actual delicious irony is the hypocrisy that you accuse with one sentence and then do the exact same thing yourself. Again thanks for the snide pompous idiotic observation that I may not be aware that 50 points is a stat, I am quite well aware. The POINT you failed to bother to read was that for me, its not all about a players function that can statistically proven i.e defense, steals, etc, (i.e. I was making a general point) but things like team moral and the unknown quantity of ability to shoot a 50 point game, which is what I would call an ‘X’ factor if you will, the field captain capability to visibly pick a team up. You may not have seen this from him, but I certainly have and even commented at the time. Jamal in my personal opinion from ‘MY OBSERVATIONS’ (and based on MY reality of actually having been fortunate enough to have played at a reasonable level), is an asset, that if available for the right price, is guy I would place on my bench in a heartbeat.
I have zero control on whether you feel my opinion is worth spit, but if you give the common decency to read my post and try and understand the point I am trying to make before responding with snide commentary, you might be surprised by the outcome, because frankly your often sound opinion simply does not need the teenage snide BS.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 2:03 PM PST up reply actions
A guy who can score 50 points a game once in a while helps you win that game. On average, Jamal Crawford doesn’t help you win many games. He isn’t very efficient (slightly above-average the last couple years), he is literally the worst defensive guard in the league. He isn’t much of a playmaker (though not the worst and he is a terrible rebounder. He averages 3 per 36 on his career. That’s bad for someone who is 6’3", let alone 6’6". 3 games in his career cannot make up for what he doesn’t do every night. Hell, Tony Delk has scored 50 in a game.
but you have done little to prove to me that Jamal Crawford is a "Zero" at half the game.
The problem with this is that defensive stats aren’t very accurate. You’d actually have to watch and pay attention to his defense to get an idea of it. Statistically, he gets 1 steal a game on his career, but only 2.1 fouls. 1 steal isn’t bad (isn’t good), but the 1.7 fouls kinda shows that he is disinterested in defense. If you actually try on defense, you are going to foul. His DRTG, which is influenced by teammates play, is 111 on his career. Average is like 106. His career high is 110 in Atlanta, but it’s been as high as 117. DRTG, for those unaware, is opponents points scored per 100 possessions. It works better at the team level.
I do buy the concept of a player making up for either his total lack of offense or his total lack of defense, but they have to be freaking incredible at what they do well. Ben Wallace would be an example of a 0 offense player that was incredible productive and good. Steve Nash would be an example of a 0 defense player. He might be the best offensive player of the decade- he’s the best shooter, shoots a great percentage from everywhere, and he influences his teammates to play really really well. IIRC, his teams score 5% more efficiently with him on the court than off. Crawford is a pretty good scorer, but he doesn’t help his teammates the way Nash or any PG does.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 12, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
Nicely put..
I can appreciate some of those observations.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 12, 2010 2:32 PM PST up reply actions
I do buy the concept of a player making up for either his total lack of offense or his total lack of defense, but they have to be freaking incredible at what they do well. Ben Wallace would be an example of a 0 offense player that was incredible productive and good. Steve Nash would be an example of a 0 defense player.
I wonder if it’s harder or easier to hide a guy who is an offensive zero or a defensive zero. Perhaps it depends on the position.
Yeah, I’m inclined to think that a big who is on offensive 0 is better to have than a big that is a defensive 0 and vice-versa for smaller players, especially point guards. Look at the impact that a guy like Dwight Howard can have on a team’s defense- they’re the best in the league, but I can spot at least 3 below average to bad defenders in that starting lineup.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 12, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions
So would this mean that while you can win with a Ben Wallace or a Steve Nash, you’re in deep trouble if you think that this excuses Troy Murphy or…
…or…
…or…
?
(…help me out guys, I can’t think of a guard who is as much of an offensive zero as Troy is a defensive zero.)
Yeah, I was trying to think of an example for that too. I don’t know if that exists.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 12, 2010 6:55 PM PST up reply actions
I actually tried to make my initial response to you quite civil. I don’t feel your response gives me the same respect.
In the first sentence, you said some of my opinions are “utter nonsense.”
I find your ‘logic’ difficult to follow. I still seems that you would rather argue with what you think I wrote, not what I actually wrote. In person, I’m unlikely to bother to engage someone who seems bent on pulling me into his non-sequitur.
As you responded twice...I guess I have to answer each post.
As I said…I read and actually proved via quotation that I had read and fully understood what you were saying. However if you fail to take a moment to understand the point I was making in response….then I have no control over that.
Telling me about how you really wouldn’t bother to ‘engage’ someone in public…actually tells me all I need to know about your in personal social skills. The only thing I am bent on…is pointing out that there are times were your responses are bloody rude and you simply don’t need to be. Therefore if you can simply try not to implore a sense of self opinionated superiority when responding, you may be surprised at what you get back. Rev’s post above is a perfect example… whether you choose to heed this is probably irrelevant to you…but hey… I can not be accused of not trying to explain my experience of your responses in as civil a manner as I can.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 13, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
I will restate this.
I really don’t believe you’re being sincere in reading anything I write at this point and are in order actually looking to find something to offend you.
If you simply refrain from commenting on anything I write, I’ll do the same with you. I think this bargain serves you better than it serves me.
I actually tried to make my initial response to you quite civil. I don’t feel your response gives me the same respect.
In the first sentence, you said some of my opinions are "utter nonsense." If you begin like that, you’re fighting an uphill battle in trying to make it sound like you’re trying to be civil. I really don’t believe you’re being sincere in reading anything I write at this point and are in order actually looking to find something to offend you.
If you simply refrain from commenting on anything I write, I’ll do the same with you.
If you simply refrain from commenting on anything I write, I’ll do the same with you.
Jae, you’re notorious for creeping around stealthily and snake-biting people when they least expect it. Just sayin…
You might note that it was BritWarrior who responded to my post with the comment that some of my opinions were utter nonsense. I’m not sure how that qualifies in any what as ‘creeping around stealthily’. Perhaps those words mean something different in your reality.
I’ve seen you snipe at someone unprovoked (e.g. when they weren’t talking directly to you) on these boards many a time though.
What you call “sniping at someone unprovoked” would more accurately be described as “replying.” If no one ever replied to anyone else’s comments, all the comments in every thread would be flush left.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 7:58 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah but theres rules for some and not others..
Sleepy, you know damn well that you, Jae and a couple of others, like nothing more than telling someone in your particular style, why you think their views are idiotic. And yes this can easily be read by some people as sniping unprovoked. Now the funny things is, said group of posters who all post the same way, all stick up for each other…yet when any other poster often ‘replies’ as you call it….they get called ‘pompous’ ‘idiotic’ ‘not worth talking to’ inconsequential’, etc etc etc.
This Board would be a great deal more pleasant if a few people simply took onboard that others see their ‘replies’ as ‘snide attacks’ and there simply is not any room for that I dont believe.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 13, 2010 5:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sleepy, you know damn well that you […] like nothing more than telling someone in your particular style, why you think their views are idiotic
Haha. Presumptuous much? You have no idea what I like doing more than anything else. OK, I’ll tell you: what I like doing more than anything else is … dancing!
Serioustly, Brit, look in the mirror. I’m not sure there’s another poster on this board who spends a higher percentage of their time here sniping personally at other posters than you.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 13, 2010 9:59 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I’ve seen you snipe at someone unprovoked (e.g. when they weren’t talking directly to you) on these boards many a time though.
How on Earth do you snipe someone online? So now people aren’t allowed to comment on another person’s comment unless talking directly with them? How on Earth would you start being able to talk to someone then?
I predict JT will never breathe through his nose.
by wallywagon11 on Nov 14, 2010 8:32 PM PST up reply actions
Methinks you're putting too much thought into this.
How on Earth do you snipe someone online?
To be clear, we’re not talking about actually “sniping someone online” (e.g. taking a sniper rifle to them online). Not to sound snide , but I’m under the impression you haven’t heard the phrase “sniping at somebody”, which means to bicker at somebody. My issue is merely with a poster bickering at somebody unprovoked (e.g. when the tone of the other person’s comment was much more cordial).
It’s the Golden (no pun intended) Rule of life: Do unto others as you’d like to have done to you.
Feel me?
READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I made it quite clear others may feel some of my views are utter nonsense… so yes it was civil, as the criticism I made of you, I also aimed at myself….. !!!!! Now I think it is fair to say that your response in turn was bloody snide and you know damn well it was snide.
Now if you refuse to accept that observation, then you knock yourself out. However I actually do try and learn from others comments and in fact I have learned several lesson here at GSOM…. maybe you can try to do the same? Or are you above that?
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 13, 2010 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
From Websters Dictionary:
Civil – polite. :)
I'm not sure when you understand when to stop.
Saying I think some of his views were utter shite, would have been ‘uncivil’ but stating I believe ‘some’ of a persons views are utter nonsense, WHILST in the same sentence stating that others may feel the same of me, then yes I believe this is civil. It shares a view in a polite and civil manner.
However it seems others do not know what civil is. Making a statement that I dont realize that 50 points is a stat, is an inference of stupidity and that is far from civil.
But Jae does not need you fighting his battles for him, he is a big grown boy who can speak for himself.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 14, 2010 6:02 PM PST up reply actions
Pot. Kettle. Black.
You explicitly insulted my intelligence earlier in this thread. You have no business telling anybody where the line is.
snake-biting people when they least expect it.
Why wouldn’t they expect it? If one pollutes the board with total nonsense (“the Warriors +Jamal Crawford = championship contenders,” e.g.), one should expect to called out, by jae or one of the many other posters here who care about keeping it real. If you base your comments on reason and reality, you’re likely to remain snakebite free. That is, assuming you (1) don’t start your posts with “like I said” or “trust me,” (2) can spell “Monta,” and (3) know the difference between “complement” and “compliment”… ;-)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 7:55 PM PST up reply actions
All I know is that
I got called a “troll” by Jae for no apparent reason other than creating a post with a view Jae didn’t agree with. That was unneccessary, and the fact that someone else immediately stepped in to defend me proves it.
Also, Sleepy, as a newfound mod, I think you’d do best not to refer to it as “polluting the board” when a poster creates a thread whose opinion you disagree with… I just think that that sends out the wrong message about the value GSoM places on diversity of ideas. You might also note that, upon further discussion of the subject I brought up with my post, I came to agree with you (and the majority who’ve contributed to my FanPost) that maybe Jamal wasn’t the best way to go. So, it’s not like I’m being unreasonable or uncivilized.
I’m just sayin, you and Jae could both be a little more pleasant/civilized with some of your comments/replies here, in general. I’m with BritWarrior 100% on this.
I think you’d do best not to refer to it as "polluting the board"
You’re right, that was overstating it. My bad.
At the same time, your victim routine rings a little hollow when you’re the one who intervened in a discussion betwen jae and Brit to take a personal shot at jae.
Of course online civility and pleasantness are important — I do make an effort on those fronts. But in the end this is a forum of ideas, and I’m never going to think all ideas are created equal. As long as we’re giving unsolicited personal advice, I’d suggest you spend less time acting wounded whenever someone criticizes your arguments and more time honing your skills of deductive reasoning and critical thinking. If your arguments are strong, they should be able to hold up to even the “meanest” critic.
As a mod and a member, I’ve always try to call things as I see them. To the extent that I support jae’s arguments and criticize yours, it’s not out of any personal fondness or animus (I don’t know either of you) but out of the fact that I’m generally much more impressed by the quality of his ideas and arguments than I am by yours. To be clear: that doesn’t mean I don’t whole-heartedly welcome your posts. But it does mean that I may sometimes call out your posts if I think they’re weak, silly or not based in reality. I could pour all kinds of sugar on my tone when I do this, but it wouldn’t change the essence of my criticism.
But OK … since you seem like a sensitive dude who takes criticism hard, I’ll try and keep the sugar handy and the kid gloves on when replying to you. Or, you know, just not waste my time replying your posts. Either way, I totally welcome your input here. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 13, 2010 9:32 PM PST up reply actions
No one cares if there is discussion of disagreement..
That is only normal and correct… but what is a major issue, is when people think they can get away with labyrinthine insults which in reality are no different to calling someone a Cee U Next Tuesday.
I have merely requested that when discussing opposing views people manage not to come out with snide BS lines like “The delicious irony is that you don’t seem to realize that saying that someone scored 50 points in a game is a stat” to which if said to me in person I may very well tell said individual to “fack off you self righteous ass!” but as I am not permitted to respond how I may truly wish, both for board rules and for professional conduct…then if the insult/snide does not come in the first place, then there is no need for the appropriate retort.
In short… less ‘hidden/wordy/snide/intellectual/labyrinthine’ insults and making of points against peoples opinions free of such insults, and GSOM becomes a much better place surely? and no its nothing about kid gloves.
And for the record… if I am prepared to quote myself that I may feel others think of some of my views as utter nonsense, then I am more than within my right to state I may feel the same of others.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 14, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
I think Sleepy's goal, along with many others,
and forgive me Sleepy if I’m being presumptuous, is to create a fan base that is the most knowledgable in all the league. When somebody on here hurts your feelings, understand that your opinions will change with time, as you begin to learn more about the game, and develop something of a special intimacy with it.
The importance of “coming correct” has more to do with bringing up discussion that is worthwhile, and is grounds for something that can be built upon as far as ideas go.
When people talk about things that are less than reasonable, it prompts others who know probably know a little more, and have spent more time thinking about the game, to “put them in their place.”
This has happened many times to me. It stings some times, and I always bite back. But at the end of the day, I remove my educator’s boot form my behind, polish it, and return it with a smile. I am now smarter and better for being corrected, and I will come back stronger :) It is all part of the education process, and since we can not sit and sip ice water with Chris Mullin or Joe Lacob, we must settle for the gracious whims of our critically acclaimed, top ranking amateurs.
For the glory of Rome.
Ave....
well, not Rome….. hmm.
Would you settle for the Empire Formerly Known as the Republic of California?
Baseball is a chamber orchestra. Football is a marching band. Basketball is a modern quintet. jazz, rock, hiphop, pop/ all about the beat./ still my revolution not/ til you dance through it.
AGAIN...what you FAILED to READ....
Was that in my sentence I also stated that you probably thought some of mine were utter nonsense…. to quote
“I do respect your opinion on many things statistical Jae…
But I also feel you have some opinions that are utter nonsense, as you may feel do I”.
Now you can create whatever flight of fancy you like in terms to what my motives my be. However I pointed out quite clearly how you failed to take a moment and try to understand the actual point I was making/trying to make. Instead you then go on the offensive and its not just me, you do it all the time to people that question you. as is pointed out below.
Its a new dawn...its a new day...its a new owner ....for us!!!!! and I'm FEELING GOOD!!!!!!
by BritWarriorGSW on Nov 13, 2010 4:55 PM PST up reply actions
You need to understand something about postseason awards like that:
They’re really about one thing:
Per game scoring. In “The Wages of Wins” Dave Berri proves that the major postseason awards are primarily about scoring (I don’t think he looks specifically at sixth man, but if its true for MIP and all-star votes, I don’t see why this would differ).
Jamal scored 18ppg off the bench last year. That’s considered “good” despite the fact, when consider all aspects of production, Jamal was a pretty average player last year.
Furthermore, if you have watched him play, you’ll know that he’s a chucker. Since our team plays much, much better when our best players are being unselfish and we have great ball movement, he’s a really bad fit for us.
I also think that his age is a plus
because it lowers his price. The last thing we need is tie ourselves up with another big contract at this point. Especially if we’re gonna match a qualifying offer to Brandan Wright in the offseason (which I hope we do because I think he’s gonna help us a lot this year).
And you guys gotta admit, we get four-point plays with Jamal Crawford!!
24 FOUR POINT PLAYS..
is no big deal… that means we could maybe expect 2? this year? if we had him…
4 pt plays should have no bearing on deciding to pick up a player or not.. specially if it happens maybe once every 40 games..
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Nov 11, 2010 12:05 AM PST up reply actions
LMAO.
I was just amusing myself with the four-point plays bit. Although, I do think that’s an impressive stat… I wonder who’s the runner-up in that department?
If defense win championships...we just aquired one of the leagues worst defenders if we aquire Crawford.
He was good patch for an injured Monta Ellis when we had him but I think we need to look more in terms of Richard Hamilton as a player X. He’ll provide everything Crawford does along with a ring and some D.
Actually, another point that I think should support the Crawford campaign
is that he did have a good season as a Sixth Man last year. According to Sleepy, Crawford’s always been horrible until then, when he was a starter. But then, since Sleepy outed his Sixth Man season as his outstanding year, and Player X is a Sixth Man, I think he’d be a good return for us, since that’s the role we’d be looking to put him in anyway (one in which he excels).
The Player X has only one name for us
Jason Richardson
Unresticted free agent next summer
Well, JRich still isn’t the type of player who makes you a championship contender, but I would certainly rather have him than Jamal Crawford. He’s actually kind of a rich man’s Crawford — not quite as good a passer, but a vastly better rebounder, more efficient scorer, better at taking care of the ball, and somewhat less dispassionate on defense.
I’d put JRich, healthy Azubuike, Morrow, and the 2008-10 edition of Jamal Crawford all in the same boat. Great 3-point shooters, nice guys to have around, but not that hard to replace, and certainly not guys who get you in the championship discussion if you’re not already in it. I’d rate Crawford the worst of that bunch because of his inability to use his long 6’6" frame to secure rebound at an acceptable rate.
The list of “Players X” by the Steinmetz definition cited in this diary is pretty short. LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol, Tim Duncan, possibly Wade, CP3 and Durant. That’s about it, imo.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 11, 2010 8:25 AM PST up reply actions
When it comes to defense, I’d say JRich is pretty much the polar opposite of Crawford. Crawford has all the length and athleticism of a good defender, and somehow just doesn’t do it. JRich’s problem is he has no lateral quickness whatsoever. Even when he’s trying, he just doesn’t have the physical tools necessary to be a good defender. He can be passable when he tries, though, and his rebounding helps a bunch.
by Missing Barry on Nov 11, 2010 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
I like Duncan...
but I can’t see any of those other guys you’ve mentioned taking a willing role off the bench. And “Player X” is a bench player, so I don’t think they’re viable candidates for what we’re looking for… except for possibly Duncan. Now that’s a thought…
I can’t see any of those other guys you’ve mentioned taking a willing role off the bench.
LOL. And of course the alternative — benching or trading Dorell, Monta, or Biedrins to make room for LeBron or Howard — would be unthinkable…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 11, 2010 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
Well, if you're talking about
trading and/or replacing Dorell, Monta, and/or Biedrins to land a superstar, that’s just a different conversation altogether. Steinmetz was very explicit about the fact that his “Player X” was an addition to the current roster (and one that comes off the bench at that), and not a replacement, by any stretch. Granted, he was pretty emphatic that his “Player X” was “possibly” (or probably?) better than any player currently on the Warriors’ roster. But, that being said, I have to agree with dubious dubz that it wouldn’t make sense to bench Curry or Ellis, insomuch as they are part of the young core we’re looking to build around, with the Steinmetz “Player X” scenario. To suddenly bench either of those two seems very counter-productive to me.
That said, presuming we’re gonna let Gadz and Vlad Rad off of our books next Summer, why don’t we proceed to go after one of J. Rich or Jamal Crawford for a reasonable offer next year, match a qualifying offer for Brandan Wright (because again, I think he’s gonna live up to his hype this season), and THEN go after someone extra who best fits the description of our ideal image of “Player X” (excluding any of Sleepy’s improbable superstars, save for maybe Duncan if he’s unsigned), whether it be Rip Hamilton, Kirk Heinrich or whoever it is?
Duncan if he’s unsigned
Duncan’s signed through next season, after which he’s 36 years old and starts to lose his appeal (at least as a player who makes you a “championship contender” — he could still be a very nice backup C/PF).
Aiming high: Dwight Howard will also nominally be available after the 2011/12 season, though you have to think the Magic will lock him long before that. (Edit: Next Summer, most likely). But if for whatever reason (the godawful Rashard Lewis contract, e.g.) the Magic fumble the ball, it’s fun to imagine swooping in and stealing him. We’d have to be in the perfect position to do it, both in terms of team reputation / talented teammates, and in terms of finances. The latter would have to be achieved by jettisoning some salary, most likely Biedrins’ and possibly Monta’s or Lee’s as well. But with a core of Howard + Curry + Monta/Lee, all in their primes, we could start entering the championship conversation forreals.
Probably even not worth fantasizing about, at least not till we hear some small sign of unhappiness from the Howard camp, but if we seriously want to talk championship, that’s the type of fish we’re talking about. Crawfish … not so much.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 11, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
OK, so Dwight Howard's likely not comin here,
but even if he did, hypothetically speaking, I don’t think we’d be a championship-contending team without Beans and Monta/Lee. We’d be pretty good, sure, but I think that’d still be giving up way too much to compete with the Lakers. And even then, Howard for Beans and Monta/Lee would be far too much of a substitution to be considered our (additional) “Player X” guy.
That said, I’m lovin your Duncan idea. Even at 36-years old, I think a “very nice” Duncan at backup C/PF would put us over the hump for the goal, pending we also snatched Hinrich and kept Wright… we would have krazee depth if we managed to pull something like that off!!
I should add that I've
Jamal Crawford, and replaced him with Kirk Hinrich there, Sleepy. :)
You don’t think a core of DHoward/Lee/Curry or DHoward/Monta/Curry makes for a championship contender? As it is, the Magic are perennial championship contenders with the likes Jameer Nelson, JJ Redick, Brandon Bass, and Rashard Lewis surrounding DHo. Dumping two rotation players for one always affects your depth, but it’s really not that hard to “fill in” depth once you have the core studs in place. Ask the Lakers and Celtics.
You’re not actually “krazee” enough to say, on the GSoM record, that you wouldn’t trade Monta + Biedrins for Dwight Howard … are you?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 7:26 AM PST up reply actions
You’re not actually "krazee" enough to say, on the GSoM record, that you wouldn’t trade Monta + Biedrins for Dwight Howard … are you?
I’d trade two Montas and two Biedrins for Dwight Howard.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
DHoward, Lee, Curry would be a title contender, with appropriate role players around them.
I can’t imagine how they wouldn’t be.
(Monta instead of Curry and I’m not so sure. I’ve seen aspects of Monta’s play recently which have troubled me. You can see that last-year’s Monta is still just below the surface. Whereas Curry seems to have a perfect sense of when to get others involved and when to take over himself).
Well, I am Krazee max...
but I have no interest in trading away half of our best players (and thus, abandoning our current core to go a different way) to aquire Dwight Howard. The reason being, doing so would not make us a championship contender. Not so long as the championship goes through the Lakers. Now, if we were talking about somehow trying to steal Howard from Orlando (in the vein that the Lakers stole Pau from Memphis), and get him to join our current core for hardly anything, that’d be a whole different story (and one I’d very much be on board with).
But to answer your question more directly, no, I simply wouldn’t trade any two of Monta, Beans, and/or Lee to get Howard. If we wouldn’t be able to beat the Lakers (and Howard has shown in the past he’s no match for them alone in the post), what’d be the point in looking to do all that? I guess we could then say we got a superstar. We’d still be a pretty good team (which we already are). Yea… other than that, the scenario sounds pretty pointless to me. I’m much more interested in finding and netting our Player X(s).
Howard is an MVP candidate. He alone would instantly make us a top defensive team. We would maintain very strong offensive output as well.
Generally, it’s easier to get those guys like Monta or Biedrins, who are good players, than guys like Dwight, who are once in a generation players at their position. If we traded for Howard, I would rather do Monta and Biedrins. I think Lee is a great fit to play alongside Howard.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 12, 2010 6:57 PM PST up reply actions
Monta's a great player.
Arguably the best on the team now. I think he’s pretty clearly irreplaceable (for any above average 2, anyway) if we shipped him off for Howard. And I really don’t think a trio of Curry, Howard and Lee (and whoever else you use to fill out your role players with) is getting it done against the Laker (as they’re presently constituted).
He’s arguably anywhere between 1st and 4th on the team and I would probably argue 3rd. If we add Dwight, it doesn’t matter. The production from a scoring 2 can be replaced. We could probably just send, say, Portland a firster and get Rudy Fernandez and start him or Reggie Williams.
Curry-Reggie-Dorell-Lee-Howard is easily one of the best starting lineups in the NBA. The reason this trade doesn’t work is because we aren’t giving up enough talent for them.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 12, 2010 7:52 PM PST up reply actions
Monta strikes me as the most replaceable of our big 3.
I also feel that when we are missing Curry or Lee, our team loses a little bit of offensive synergy – there’s less ball movement, things seem to get stagnant and one dimensional.
this wont happen
curry, Ellis, and j-rich are all proven starts. we need a back up guard, not one that will score 20. we tried that with maggette…didnt work. we need a back up guard or pf….. i heard chalmers was on the market that might work nicely
by dubious dubz on Nov 11, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
sorry i mean sf not pf
we dont need another pf
by dubious dubz on Nov 11, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
J-Rich will be 31
Not very old, but ok to acept to come off the bench with a lot of playing time (32 mpg).
nah
And wh would we sit to give him those minutes. Also 31 isn’t old – it just means he’s a vet. 31 is primetime for a lot of players in the nba
by dubious dubz on Nov 11, 2010 11:57 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Jamal Crawford is a perfect example
That defending is more than about size.
The San Francisco 49ers, inventing new ways to lose every week!
patrick beverly anyone?
we need back up pg…. not a bad idea. i said trading for chalmers might be nice as well. maybe try to stretch for jeff teague
Kirk Hinrich
is a perfect complimentary player to Ellis and Curry. He is another high basketball IQ guy that can shoot and defend. And most importantly, another player you can call a “glue” guy.
by davidleeisabeast on Nov 11, 2010 1:39 PM PST reply actions
That's GENIUS!
Anybody know Hinrich’s current contract situation?
It wasn't genius a few weeks ago
when I made a fanpost about acquiring Hinrich. In fact, almost all of you crapped on the idea immediately…
Similar to the way most of you crapped all over Keith Smart
when I made a fanpost a couple months before the season about how Smart is Lacob’s perfect guy for the job…
Similar to the way most of you crapped all over Keith Smart
when I made a fanpost a couple months before the season about how Smart is Lacob’s perfect guy for the job…
I'm sorry, man.
I never even read your Hinrich post. If only you had heard the Steinmetz bit beforehand, then you would’ve been able to form your Hinrich post in the form of a Dallas-like mystery (“Who Is Player X??”) and it would’ve been a lot more entertaining.
I'm more of a bitter fan than a genius.
I’d be so happy to see people award more benefit to veteran players who know what the hell they’re doing and know how to defend, rather than just being homers and dreaming of guys like Brandan Wright being the next big thing.
Our team is changing into a hungry, blood thirsty, tough group of guys. That means that we need to acquire players who fit that mold. That means that we must award minutes to guys who fit that mold. I would personally reduce Brandan’s minutes in favor of Amundson and Udoh when they return, and I’d dump Carney and go after a player like Hinrich or Courtney Lee. Just somebody who has a better feel and knowledge of the game, and plays violent defense.
I wrote it before Steinmetz's comments.
I’ve actually been singing Matt’s song for awhile now, that the team needs another combo guard off the bench who can spell either Monta or Stephen who is a top defender, and preferably an able perimeter scorer.
No need for apologies.. it’s just that people don’t really know anything about Kirk’s game, and they say a lot of stupid things.
I like Hinrich, Stuckey, Salmons, Holiday, (possibly Redd for a year), Courtney Lee, and Sessions.
Jamal Crawford would be horrible for this team.
All the hard work we’ve done to learn how to move the ball and involve the team offense, the defensive footholds we’ve found enough pride to sustain – all that would be for nothing if we went after a guy like Crawford. Jamal would disrupt the flow of the offense and bring back Nellie ball by launching three’s with 19 seconds left on the shot clock instead of cycling the ball. His defensive assignments would constantly be missed and would often put Lee and Dris in foul trouble.
I think we don’t have to give up a player like Brandan Wright to get Kirk Hinrich. Expiring contracts should be enough to get him. He has two years left worth 9 million. Like you said, and like I’ve said before, Kirk is a glue guy who’s game complements Steph’s and Monta’s perfectly.
Let's hope that Riley see it the same way we do.
I am not even opposed to the idea of giving up B.Wright to get Hinrich. When we get Amundson and Udoh back, B. Wright will most likely ride the bench anyway. And with Hinrich on board, we’ll have every player on the team playing their rightful positions…and Keith Smart would less likely to experiment with his substitution patterns because we will have a more solid rotation.
by davidleeisabeast on Nov 12, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
This would mean
no minutes for Carney, no minutes for Vlad or Gadz, none for Lin, and Bell would be asked to come to work in a tie. I wouldn’t be opposed to trading Wright for Hinrich either, but I have a suspicion that Vlad’s contract should be enough to get that trade done. Hinrich has 2 years left at 9 million, and with the emergence of Wall, it would be wise for Washington to get cap room in a timely fashion so that a winning squad can materialize around Wall via free agency.
We may be able to keep Brandan, or trade him to acquire a mid-low 1st round pick. It would be ironic if the ghost of Jason Richardson came back in the form of a prospect bearing fruit 5 years from now, wouldn’t it? Anyway, I think you’re right about Amundson and Udoh cutting Brandan’s minutes down significantly.
Against the Bulls, it was very obvious that there was a certain element of toughness and hustle missing in the paint. This gives us an amplified taste of what our team is like when David Lee is not in the game. I don’t think this will be the case when Amundson is healthy enough to spell him. Lou is as rugged as they come and he’s always going for the ball. It’s also encouraging to hear the staff rave about Udoh. The more I think about what he has to offer, (perimeter and interior defense, mobile, high IQ young big) the more I like how he fits in.
Talk about a glue guy, that’s what keeps a winning team’s motor running smoothly. I think Ekpe is going to prove a lot of people wrong – Similar to the way Keith Smart has/is.
Hinrich has 2 years left at 9 million
Actually, next year, at least according to HoopsHype, it drops down to $8M. I only mention it ‘cos that may be the only NBA contract I’ve seen that’s frontloaded like that.
Capologists: is there a reason HInrich’s deal is structured that way? Am I even right to think that it’s unusual?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 12, 2010 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
It is unusual and rare. I’ve seen a few others. If you can get a player to agree to such a contract, it’s great, but most contracts wind up being about the most you can find a way to get player in year one, with the maximum raises in all years after to make the total dollar figure the most attractive to the player.
I remember you telling me
that such a thing was contractually an impossibility in this league. Maybe I misunderstood. I take most things you say at face value, and I’ve never seen or heard of a contract similar to Hinrich’s as well. Why is this not more common? Wouldn’t it make sense to design a large amount of contracts in this fashion since 99.9 % of players follow the same trend of diminishing skills once they pass the “30 mark”?
The total dollar figure makes sense, but I have a hard time imagining most players saying, “let me think about it” when the dotted line ultimately implies 40 million in their bank account, delivered from a winning organization. I’m surprised teams like the Lakers, Celtics, and now Heat don’t make these offers exclusively..
Two reasons I can think of...
Why is this not more common?
The first is that players like to make as much as possibe, and it’s become pretty standard for players to receive the maximum raises allowed by the CBA.
The other reason is that from the teams perspective it allows you to get the most bang for your buck when it comes to available cap space. If you have $8mil available you can usually get a better player if you are offering $8mil in the first year with max raises than if you were offering $8mil flat or declining over the same number of years. It’s kind of seen as maximizing your ability to improve your team.
I think it’s a great idea to keep salaries flat of front-load them when possible, but many times that is running counter to the culture of the NBA. It really does make it easier to build your team moving forward though.
I just think the expirings will be really valuable at the trading deadline to land a “really good player”. Or we can let it expire next year, so we can go after a big time free agent. Again, if we can get Hinrich for B Wright plus filler (i.e… Bell) to match salaries will be ideal. I don’t care if we don’t see minutes for Vlad, Gadz and Lin if this deal was consumated because it only means we have Williams, Carney, Amundson, Udoh and Hinrich as subs for our starting unit. Now, I think that’s a nice bench!
I agree with you also on Udoh…I think he will fit in nicely with this team.
by davidleeisabeast on Nov 13, 2010 1:55 AM PST up reply actions
You can add me to that wagon boots.
I think Ekpe is going to prove a lot of people wrong
I have the same “feeling” about Udoh. No proof just pure optimism. I like this guy, as irrational as it seems.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 13, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
I'm encouraged that
some fans are feeling this way. This may sound like a pretty worthless comment, but I think Udoh’s attitude and work ethic will prove to be invaluable to this young and growing team. He has a coach’s mentality, along with a somewhat rare skill set.
Jamal Crawford? Really?
Like, didn’t he used to play for us? And he’s the answer? Damn I wish the W’s could’ve held on to CJ Watson.
TEH INTERNETZ: if you're wondering whether it's worth it, it's not worth it.
Wouldn't be my first choice, but at the right price..
It wouldn’t be bad. I just think they need a taller guard that is more defensive minded. They are already getting most of their scoring from the backcourt, so I don’t think they really need a offensive specialist like Crawford. I like him and his ability to play both guard positions, but he would probably be a little expensive and doesn’t really fill a presssing need.
I would like to see them get a guy like Aaron Afflalo. A guy that can shoot the tree, but doesn’t need to take a lot of shots. I also like that he learned fundamental defense playing for Ben Howland at UCLA.
Doable Trade = Bring Jamison Back
Jamison for expired contracts of Gad + Rad (if we are in the playoff hunt this year)
The $ works out perfectly and Jamison is much player than Rad can play 3 or 4 and would provide the scoring needed for the 2nd unit (in addition to Reggie). After the trade, the 2nd unit would be Wright/Asmundson or Udoh/Jamison/Williams or Carney/Lin or Bell (when everyone is healthy) and would be a solid second unit.
I think Cleveland would be willing to do this trade.
Might even want to consider including Anthony Parker + 2nd round draft pick and we throw in Bell.
Jamison
would actually be a great player on our team. Great idea. He would be able to step in and run the pick and roll, and he’s an excellent option for Monta around the rim.
The only problem I think with this idea, is that the Warriors have no proven center other than Andris, who plays a physical style of basketball. Andris is a fighter, but he’s not a strong, bruising kind of guy. You take an even bigger shot defensively having Jamison paired with a center who is a little light in the tail and not as aggressive. It’s a bit counter productive to the particular brand Smart is desperately trying to introduce and instill. I could see your logic in acquiring Jamison, and it’s excellent logic. Props
It just kind of seems like more of a Nellie move than a Keith move. Either way, he’d make us a better team.
But Bell is useless, haha. He would be a burden for any team to pick up with that extra year on his contract. He’s not really good enough to merit any kind of meaningful minutes…unless your team sucks, which would then beg the question why you wouldn’t just be eager to get under the cap and out of the garbage pile.
Crawford
okay,the problem with him is that we are trying to win games,eventually get a playoff berth.Crawford has seen 5(4?) playoff games in HIS CAREER.this shows he doesnt help his team win AT ALL.No defence,no rebounding and terrible shot selection=terrible backup
the problem with him is that we are trying to win games
Perfectly said. Lock the thread!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Nov 13, 2010 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
Play Jeremy Lin as SG more. LOL.
We found out that Reggie was more a backup PG and sixth man than a two.
If we trade for someone, then I’d go for Courtney Lee who can play defense over someone like Crawford. He seems buried in the depth charts at Houston. Maybe they’ll take Rodney Carney in order to save money.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
Sleepy
exactly!!! at least some people understand the difference from a solid backup and a terrible defender ,rebounder ect

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