Recap #14: Denver Nuggets 106, Golden State Warriors 89 - Too Many 3's and Too Much Carmelo
by Fantasy Junkie on Nov 22, 2010 10:39 PM PST
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Lots of free throws, lots of points, lots of smiling
Final Boxscore | Game Thread | Game Day Links
The Warriors offense sucked. They had no life tonight with the 3rd game in 4 nights. Maybe if they had hit some more shots early they get energized and don't fall apart at the end. Tired legs usually settle for jumpers. Tonight the Warriors took a lot of 3's. Their offense became drive and one pass to the man standing at the 3 point line or swing the ball around and shoot the open 3. Somebody go for a higher percentage shot. Get to the line. Do something other than launch 3's. They shot 26 of them and made 6, good for 23%. Compare that to the Nuggets 12-21 from 3 (8 of 9 at one point), good for 57%.
This game was actually close for most of the game. Both teams shot under 40% for the first half. The Warriors kept shooting poorly while the Nuggets found their stroke. Even with the poor shooting and Nuggets shooting better, with 5:47 to go, the Warriors were down just 5 with the ball. Then Monta misses a 3 and then the Nuggets go on a 9-1 run to go up 92-79 and put the game away.
Overall, the Warriors shot just 40% from the field. You're not going to win many games like that. The Nuggets finished with 47% from the field, an 11 made free throw advantage, and a huge advantage from 3.
Warriors drop to 7-7. Crap.
Andris Biedrins and the Early Fouls
Foul #1:1st quarter, 11:07 remaining - silly offensive foul
Foul #2: 1st quarter, 5:43 remaining - loose ball foul trying to out-rebound Carmelo Anthony. I don't mind the hustle, but he's got to be careful.
Foul #3: 1st quarter, 1:30 remaining - trying to get out of the way of Chris Anderson, not even trying to block the shot.
3 fouls in the first quarter and done for the first half, leaving the team without it's best big man. Does Andris understand that he is the Warriors most important big man and needs to stay in the game? Andris was having a very good quarter hustling for rebounds, fighting for and getting good position on offense and defense, and giving the team some second chance opportunities. When he came out in the 2nd half, he seemed to play more tentative as if afraid to pick up a foul. Well, he's got to learn how to play aggressive and contribute while also giving the Warriors hustle plays.
Luckily, Dan Gadzuric had his best game of the year and gave the team 32 quality minutes. With Biedrins sitting on the bench, Gadzuric gave the team lots energy on defense and the boards by just working his butt off down there. He finished with 11 boards and a couple blocks.
A Tale off Two 3's
Player A: 39 points (10-24 FG's, 17-17 FT's), 9 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals
Player B: 2 points (1-6 FG's), 4 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal
Guess who each player is. I know, it's hard and the answer might shock you.
Player A is Carmelo Anthony. Player B is Dorell Wright. Crazy how similar their numbers were tonight.
This was a test for DWright to see how he could match up with Carmelo. They brought him in to be a solid defender and we've come to count on his scoring. Tonight he was neither the solid defender, nor the scorer. He had a bad game. He played tentative like he didn't want to shoot, dribble, or guard Carmelo.
Does this help cheer you up?
David Lee, I Miss You
They've now lost 5 of 6. It's frustrating that David Lee who missed 3 games in 3 years has now missed 6 games because Wilson Chandler doesn't brush his damn teeth. The more he's gone the more it's apparent how valuable he is. He helps Biedrins down low on the boards, is another offensive threat the Warriors desperately need, and . I miss you David, please come back soon.
Transition Defense
I'll make this last point quick. Someone needs to yell at these guys to get back on defense every time down the floor. Someone needs to rotate to the top of the key on offense after a shot. The opposing team should not ever get uncontested fast break layups. Yesterday, I remember the Lakers had two wide open fast break dunks with no Warriors within 40 feet. Tonight, the Nuggets got a bunch of easy buckets off fast breaks with little, if any, resistance from the Warriors defenders.
Dan Gadzuric
Because he had his best game of the year and I loved watching him fight down low against Nene and Chris Anderson for rebounds. He's not the most talented guy, but his motor doesn't stop. Tonight, he kept the Warriors in the game with Biedrins on the bench. The other option is Rodney Carney coming off the bench to score 20 on 7-9 shooting.
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+10000000
He’s coming back after the roadtrip. He’s as important, if not more, as Curry and Monta.
CURRY + LEE = GOOD
MONTA + LEE = GOOD
CURRY + MONTA – LEE = NOT GOOD ENOUGH
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Heat are vastly overrated
The depth of their roster is laughable.
"I tell him straight, 'If you're going to lead, you have to be the first to practice. You have to come in, get your work down and be prepared for practice,' " assistant coach Keith Smart said. "He needs to figure out why he is having stomach problems and he's got to watch how LeBron (James), Kobe (Bryant) and D-Wade (Dwyane Wade) work. He needs to mimic that if he wants his teammates to speak volumes about him." -Keith Smart on Motna Ellis
If you’re looking for something that’s “overrated”, look no farther than depth. Your 8th man is so much less important than your top 3, it’s almost to the point of utter irrelevance.
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 6:18 AM PST up reply actions
What's not overrated
The fact Dan Gadzuric and Jeremy Lin can legitimately make cases to be starters for Miami.
It’s an interesting case study for me, when you have 3 well above average players, and 2 well below average starting.
I think when Mike Miller comes back it’ll help a lot as a Wade, Lebron, Miller perimeter will have no problems working (in the right system). But the lack of anything inside (minus when Bosh decides he is 6-11 and can rebound and defend the rim) is what I wonder if they can overcome in the playoffs. I still think no, and I think it was a mistake using full MLE on Miller. You can find floor spacers for cheap (granted Miller is an excellent passer and all around good player). But finding a solid rim protecting center who rebounds and plays D is a little harder and more useful
Perhaps Bosh’s rebounding numbers were inflated in Toronto by playing next to Bargnani, a 7 footer who gets only 2 rebounds a game and shoots a lot of outside shots. It’s possible Bosh has always been overrated.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
The team he is on is no better at rebounding
He’s also played alongside guys like Shawn Marion and Jermaine O’Neal and his rebounding stats were better than they are now.
I believe that ghosts are like dogs. They just do things arbitrarily.
by Reverend_Randy on Nov 23, 2010 6:12 PM PST up reply actions
Well when 2 of your best players are out
and your second best player (wade) is playing like crap, it’s hard to win games.
by GovernorStephCurry on Nov 23, 2010 7:37 AM PST up reply actions
And the thing is, as disappointing as the Heat’s current record is, from a statistical standpoint, what they’ve done so far, in terms of what it tells us about their true talent level as a team (in other words, how well we expect them to play going forward), is still right near the tops in the league. There’s not much reason to be down on them.
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 8:14 AM PST up reply actions
The thing is….
is still right near the tops in the league. There’s not much reason to be down on them.
No one will deny they are a top 5 team in NBA. But anything less than championship will be seen as a disappointment after all the summer antics. And simply put, I don’t think they can beat a healthy Boston or healthy Lakers.
By the way your point on statistics are slightly flawed. They have proven they can destroy average to below average teams. But again, it’s about expectations. They haven’t proven to be able to compete with the top teams. Not really Lebron, Wade or Bosh’s fault (though he started really disappointing). More the fact they have some huge holes elsewhere.
By the way your point on statistics are slightly flawed. They have proven they can destroy average to below average teams. But again, it’s about expectations. They haven’t proven to be able to compete with the top teams.
Actually, my point isn’t flawed. You’re right what they’ve “proven”, but the thing is, that’s actually a pretty good predictor of who the best teams are. Destroying bad teams is more meaningful than winning close games against good teams. Don’t be so quick to dismiss statistics. Having a conversation about what they mean (and don’t mean) is one thing – that’s certainly productive, but simply dismissing a point because you think there’s one flaw in it isn’t productive.
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Well yeah, i should clarify
I’m not dismissing them in regards to that aspect. You’re right they are on a path to be an elite NBA team. I should say the flaw in it is more to do with expectations. Being top 5 won’t cut it. Not after the decision and all that nonsense. But you’re right. That’s a different issue.
those fouls on biedrins
at least 2 of them were just flat out terrible. i know he has to be careful, but he still needs to at least try and play, and the refs need to swallow the whistle once in a while. otherwise he might as well just stand in a corner all game
The third one was a laughably bad call. If refs are calling fouls like that on someone, there’s nothing they can do. Getting out of the way isn’t even enough.
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 6:19 AM PST up reply actions
As always...
Bieds is always the victim of 2-3 ridiculous calls per night. I don’t know if it’s his lack of star power or if he curses the refs’ mothers, but he cannot catch a break.
Not liking Smart as a coach.
He’s not getting on these guys enough. I understand he’s a players coach but he’s too lenient with these guys. He’s not picking up on the habits & tendencies of other teams. He’s not a defensive coach and he doesn’t know how to direct an offense. With our current roster, we’d be better off playing Nellie-ball……and i’d never thought i’d here myself say that =/
I completely agree with your WW
Gadz was hustling! Seeing him hit the deck to stop Afflalo on fast break was the greatest effort I saw all night (granted I only watched the second half). Maybe in addition to the WW, they could have a Rick Ross award, for outstanding hustle.
Also, props to David Lee’s cheerleading from the bench. Looked like he cared more about this game than most of our starters.
I was thinking the exact same thing as the poll question
We might not be a winning team again this year ):
Positives from tonight’s game:
1. Vlad DNP-CD
…
…
…
Everything else is irrelevant. Can’t believe we wasted a Gadz near double double in a losing effort. PROVE ME WRONG WARRIORS
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by Tom Huddlestone on Nov 22, 2010 11:22 PM PST reply actions
In other news
North Korea just shelled a South Korean island full of civilians. Fuuuuu. I got some friends over there.
"I tell him straight, 'If you're going to lead, you have to be the first to practice. You have to come in, get your work down and be prepared for practice,' " assistant coach Keith Smart said. "He needs to figure out why he is having stomach problems and he's got to watch how LeBron (James), Kobe (Bryant) and D-Wade (Dwyane Wade) work. He needs to mimic that if he wants his teammates to speak volumes about him." -Keith Smart on Motna Ellis
Andris, Smart, Melo and - AL?
Andris simply has to play smarter without fouling when the bench is so thin, and Smart’s gamble to leave him in the first quarter after having picked up two fouls was low-reward/high-risk that backfired badly.
The officiating always has, and imo always will, favor the supposed stars. While Andris gets called for ticky tack fouls Melo gets the benefit of phantom fouls. Frustrating that the league’s integrity is marred by it’s slavery to tv revenue, hence stars have to stay in the game and get treated like nobility.
Mildly surprised there was so little mention, respectful or not, of Harrington hereabouts. His matador defense was highlited on the broadcast, but so too his scoring ability.
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
I’m not sure the evidence really suggests that refs favor stars. I also don’t think there’s much to be said about Andris’ fouling yesterday, the 3rd foul call was absolutely bogus. Shouldn’t have been called. I can’t blame anyone for that.
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 8:16 AM PST up reply actions
I think saying ref favors stars isn't giving credit to Melo
Melo is very good at drawing contact and shooting out of contact. He’s very strong and athletic, and knows how to use his body.
There is an art to getting to the line. Keep in mind, when a player shows consistency of drawing contact and getting to line, they might get a 50/50 call more so than other players. Maggette got this alot and he’s no ‘star’. I almost relate it to hitters known for having an excellent eye and drawing walks, getting a bit more of a favorable treatment on the corners from umps. Again that’s just a theory I have. I can’t necessarily back it with anything other than human nature and fact we’re all a bit bias.
I think it’s a good comparison. Different players get different calls, but simply chalking it up to their popularity seems like a cop out to me. I don’t think the data supports it. Just like with that list of pitchers, basketball players that draw a lot of fouls are populated by a wide range of talent levels, and it undoubtably has something to do with the individuals traits:
http://www.hoopdata.com/scoringstats.aspx?team=%25&type=tot&posi=%25&yr=2010&gp=20&mins=10
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
As a sidenote
It’s the one thing I love and hate about Monta’s game. I love how smooth he is in the air, creating separation and making me drop my jaw atleast a couple times a game. On the flip side, because of it, he simply doesn’t get to line nearly as much as other elite rim penetrating guards/wings. I think a lot of it his chalked up to strength. While Monta is a lot stronger than he was, he’s still nowhere near Wade or Melo for ex. being able to take a big hit and put a lay up or dunk in.
I hate when effectiveness gets in the way of aesthetics.
There was an analysis of foul calls, and not only are foul calls racist (for example, white refs call more fouls on black folks and black refs call more fouls on white), they discriminate against tall people. Andris is a tall non-star and isn’t getting any breaks… ever.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Discriminate against tall people? That sounds to me like whoever did the study doesn’t know that there are different positions in basketball and tall people and short people play in completely different roles?
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2010 7:28 AM PST up reply actions
you can debate whether or not stars get better treatment if you really want to make the effort, but Smart should have pulled AB after he got his second foul called in the first quarter, and that’s standard operating procedure in the NBA – bad calls happen and coaches know that – whether they were head coaches or long time assistants. I blame Smart on that one.
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
Let’s not forget the forest among the trees, I can see lots of reasons for leaving Biedrins out – seeing if he’s trustworthy to play those extra minutes without picking up a foul, sending him a message that the coach has confidence in him, gambling that to win the game Biedrins minutes were really, really necessary, etc.
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2010 7:29 AM PST up reply actions
I was at the game and I have a question
Where Biedrins 2nd and 3rd foul as AWFUL as they looked in person. Literally saw nothing, and on the replay, I felt my initial assertions were confirmed. But you know, when you’re home and have multiple replays and ability to pause it, you probably have a better idea than me.
Leading to another question. WHY was he on bench so much in second half? When he escaped 3rd with no additional fouls, he should have been in for majority of forth. He wasn’t tired.
Kieth, I want to like you, I really do, but your decisions just baffle me.
I dunno about the 2nd foul, I’m not sure they gave us a good replay on TV, it looked questionable but like maybe there could have been contact. 3rd was just a horrible, horrible call. One thing I’ll note is Gadz was playing well, so that might have factored in Biedrins being on the bench so much?
by Missing Barry on Nov 23, 2010 8:17 AM PST up reply actions
Cmon, Gadz played ok
But he was nowhere near as good as Biedrins. He may have had more rebounds, I still would have credit’d Biedrins for being more of a factor on the boards as I counted atleast 4 tip outs to players, something Gadzuric doesn’t do as well, as well as loose ball’s Gad didn’t get.
Then we can touch offensive factor, where Biedrins can finish and Gadz, not so much.
I actually really like Gadz as a back up big. He’s more than an expiring to me. I think he can give us solid back up center minutes, but he shouldn’t be stealing minutes from Andris a clearly superior player.
Another disappointing thing about Andris. He was 4-5 FGs, rolling to hoop well. Nene and birdman looked slow to me (off injuries). We really should have exploited that more. We tried to with Gadzuric, but his hands are just not as good as Andris (3-8fgs)
The only positive I saw, was Radmonovic didn’t play (even if v. Harrington is the ONE match up I think favors him), and the 2 Center lineup definitely has it’s advantages for periods.
I was at the game too...
1st foul – Beans lifts his arms up trying to seal off the defender in the post, whacks him in the face, but doesn’t really push off with it. He gets called for the offensive foul. This one is questionable but he did hit him in the face.
2nd foul – Melo is in position to grab a defensive rebound along the baseline. Beans comes flying in to grab the rebound and pretty much pushes Melo out of the way with his body. I dunno how anyone can argue this one.
3rd foul – Birdman is attempting a layup/dunk and didn’t really have a good angle at it. Beans tries to get out of the way by moving away from the basket. Birdman sells this really well and it looks like Beans undercuts him. This was a bad call, but Birdman did sell it very well.
Don’t forget!!!! Not enough presence in the paint. The Warriors are desperate that they had to put Dan Gadzuric as a starter. Hope David Lee will come soon.
by Jeffrey Thompson on Nov 23, 2010 9:00 AM PST reply actions
Thats actually what bugs me most
We could have taken them cause they didn’t have KMart or Chauncey. Granted KMart isn’t special he’s still a much better PF than what they trotted out.
We were in the game till end. In my opinion, this loss falls on Keith Smart. So many questionable decisions. We should have pulled it out, with or without Lee.
What could Smart have possibly done differently with the lineup that was available? This loss falls on the players. They weren’t closing out three point shooters, and they weren’t looking to create anything on offense.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I think he should have subbed in Curry before the 6min mark in the 4th. I think he should have played more Adrien.
by Doctor Kajita on Nov 23, 2010 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
Curry was our best playmaker last night.
Especially so with Monta chucking the way he was.
The San Francisco 49ers, inventing new ways to lose every week!
Mike Singletary: Doing the same thing week in and week out expecting a different result.
by Badly Browned on Nov 23, 2010 11:37 AM PST up reply actions
He *could* have played Adrien more than 3 minutes.
Doesn’t it strike you as even slightly curious that a “commitment to rebounding” and a horrible +/- there has rarely lead to playing one of our best rebounders? The fear of Melo going off on Adrien is a likely reason last night, but it didn’t make any difference.
The proximate cause of the loss is bad shooting and bad rebounding. The trend has been to lose ground at the ends of quarters and halves. That said, Smart didn’t have a whole lot to do with last night’s loss. He didn’t play Charlie, and he didn’t play Vladi – those are the most important changes he can make, regardless of one-game results. At least with those two out of the mix for a moment, Smart is more likely to stumble upon his most effective lineups more rapidly.
He's a one-legged skateboarding card sharp who knows the secret of the alien invasion. She's a transdimensional belly-dancing cab driver from beyond the grave. They fight crime!
I seemed to be a winable game. Warriors did not have much energy last night.
by Only In Fairfax on Nov 23, 2010 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
scheduling see-saw
with the recent road game in NY the visitor didn’t have a game the night before, NY did and lost (won in an upset though the jaw vs. elbow contest). Last night, Den had the day off between games, the home team didn’t.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
Or Aumundson...
Or Udoh…
It seems like we’ve got banged up bigs every year.
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by Dubs fan in Boston on Nov 23, 2010 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
Perhaps next summer our number one signing priority
Should be new medical and training staff.
Hmmmm
Lee had a freak human bite injury
Amundson broke his finger during a preseason game.
Udoh injured his wrist under some shady circumstances.
BWright is BWright, I don’t even know what to think of him right now.
How does a new training staff fix this? Except maybe hoping the new mojo would rid us of “the curse?”
The San Francisco 49ers, inventing new ways to lose every week!
Mike Singletary: Doing the same thing week in and week out expecting a different result.
by Badly Browned on Nov 23, 2010 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
It has more to do with rehab for me
Seems BWright was misdiagnosed and constantly re-hurt. Biedrins wasn’t treated properly. And on and on.
A good medical staff can get people healthy quicker and keep them that way. Muscular injuries are often to do with poor medical care or training (more training). And we’ve had our fair share of those.
Look at Phoenix on the flipside, able to keep players like Nash and Hill healthy
Whoever told BWright to not have surgery right away when he originally hurt himself is a fool, and if the Warriors are paying him, should be fired. That was a terrible decision. I can’t really speak on the Biedrins thing, or any of the other freak injuries we’ve had.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Ok
Then if Lou, Udoh, BWright and Lee come back and it is clear they came back without proper rehab start calling for the pitch forks.
I can see the link between the medical staff and guys not rehabbing correctly, but people are putting blame on the medical staffs for the injuries themselves, which imo is wholly unfair.
The San Francisco 49ers, inventing new ways to lose every week!
Mike Singletary: Doing the same thing week in and week out expecting a different result.
by Badly Browned on Nov 23, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
but people who don’t know anything about the subject matter, medicine, are putting blame on the medical staffs for the injuries themselves, which imo is wholly unfair.
Yeah, when someone can get an actual doctor to question what the Warriors staff was doing, then I’ll listen…
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2010 7:31 AM PST up reply actions
In BWright’s case, if he was deadset on not having surgery, I guess the training staff couldn’t have MADE him do it. But I can’t imagine any doctor counselling him that way. The surgery works really, really well. Not having surgery for that particular injury is basically an invitation to dislocate it again. And the stronger you get, the more likely it is to recur. Horrible decision. He probably could have come back and gotten some meaningful playing time towards the latter half of last season, and who knows if he would be a different player now (I still think he should be playing more as is, but that’s another topic).
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
If it’s that obvious, why in the world would Brandan choose not to do it? I have no idea what happened, nor do I know anything about the subject, but I think accusing the Warriors medical staff of malpractice (that’s basically what we’re doing when we say they aren’t doing their job properly, right?) based only on what seems to be little more than looking at our wtf run of injuries is over the line…
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2010 8:21 AM PST up reply actions
If it’s that obvious, why in the world would Brandan choose not to do it?
Because he knew nothing about the injury and the idea of “rehab and you can be back for training camp” sounded a lot more appealing than “have a really painful surgery and miss half of next year.” I don’t think our training staff had anything to do with Amundson, Udoh, Lee, Biedrins (last year) or anyone else. Those are all freak injuries. The Brandan Wright issue, because of my own very typical experience with an identical injury pattern (dislocate, rehab, feel really good, dislocate again, have surgery) leads me to believe that they botched the call.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA)
I don’t know if that’s what he has, but I had one this past fall and was on 4 antibiotics for over a month. At one point the doctor said I may need to go into the hospital and be put on an IV antibiotic. People die from these! The last antibiotic finally worked, although it wrecked havoc on my system and I’m still taking probiotics trying to get my stomach back to normal. And it all started out from a scratch I had on my leg! These antibiotic resistant infections are on the rise. I didn’t see when Lee’s elbow came in contact with Chandler’s tooth, but his elbow should have been washed out with hydrogen peroxide immediately, then securely bandaged. I learned my lesson, the next time I get any kind of scratch, it gets cleaned out and bandaged. I was really getting scared I was going to lose my leg.
yes
Staph bone infections are particularly scary.
He's a one-legged skateboarding card sharp who knows the secret of the alien invasion. She's a transdimensional belly-dancing cab driver from beyond the grave. They fight crime!
Seriously, our toughnosed badass of a PF knocks out the other guys teeth, and it’s the other guy who’s playing again while our guy is out weeks. Wtf.
by Missing Barry on Nov 24, 2010 7:33 AM PST up reply actions
ya it sucks.. even if he is back in 3 weeks he may be a tad weak for another month..
its sad to say.. he is the leader of our cavalry that is on the way but he may be the last to show.. maybe in a month and a half we could be at full strength for the fitrst time in……YEARS geez..
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Nov 24, 2010 4:18 PM PST up reply actions
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