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Joe Lacob Just Emailed Me Back (Everyone Should Read This)
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 7:55 AM PST
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This is lengthy, but it's extremely important and uplifting. As Warriors fans, I hope you all read this and understand how special it is that we have an NBA franchise owner that's so accessible and willing to reach out to his fans. Read on.
The email I sent read like this. I apologize for the length but I had a lot to say:
Dear Mr. Lacob,
I've been a Warriors fan for as long as I can remember. I can name every player that was on the Warrior's roster every year going ten years back. I spent my childhood staying faithful to a team that brought so much struggle and frustration. I'm a freshman now at Umass Amherst, spending every night staying up late watching the Warriors play. For the first time in ten years, I feel the need to reach out to my beloved organization and it's new owners.
Mr. Guber and yourself currently symbolize a new era of hope for every Warriors fan. You represent the change and the taste of excitement that has been lost for a decade and a half (with the exception with the miraculous 2006-07 playoff run). You have made tangible statements and promises about the future of the team that has only further expanded my love for the franchise, and without a doubt, and I whole-heartedly believe that you will come through.
I do not email you as a criticism, but more as a warning. I feel I speak for a majority of the fanbase when I say that we're frustrated and we've waited long enough for the opportunity to be recognized and feared across the NBA as legitimate competitors and contenders. The Warriors start since your takeover has been nothing short of horrendous, and I must tell you already that frustration and dissatisfaction has already grown with the new face of change. Just to be clear, in no way do I suggest that the terrible play it is the new ownership's fault - that is impossible. But I must urge that you take action NOW in order to prove to the Warriors community that you plan on coming through on your promises. Transactoins, cuts, whatever it may be, you must prove to the fanbase through action that your serious about the future of this team. The Warriors have been playing some of the worst basketball that I've seen from them for as long as I can remember, and it's time for the change and order that you promised to come into effect now. As before mentioned, the fans are frustrated, and the sooner you address this the better. Especially in such turbulent times; tonights loss to the Rockets should have been a win.
On a personal note, thank you dearly for relieving us from the Cohen era. I truly look forward to seeing you transform this beloved team into a true contender. Seeing you at the home games already proves to me that you want to win just as badly as I do. I am active in the Warriors blogging community, and any response to this email would immediately hit the blogs (the blogging community has extremely appreciated your accessibility in the past). No matter what happens, I will always enjoy the fun and love of the game the Warriors organization has taught me.
Best wishes and have the happiest of holidays to yourself and your family!!!!
Jordan (a Warrior fan forever)
Three hours later, Mr. Lacob emailed me back this:
Jordan,
I missed my first game as the Warriors owner as my high school senior son had a game tonight. I just finished watching our W's game. Believe me, i am extremely frustrated. I assure you that I am looking at all aspects of our play and our team and looking for ways to get better. Clearly, injuries are killing us. We are just not deep enough to sustain injuries. Notice how many games we are losing in the key final minutes. David Lee is just getting healthy. Then, down goes Curry and Biedrins. Damn.
Monta is playing at an extremely high level. Fantastic effort, great heart. What more can he do? He needs help. David Lee is a very solid player. We need Curry back. We need our starting center back. We need Dorell to be consistent---he has been quite a find, but needs to be more consistent. Reggie has given us a lot---his role is to come in and score and he has done that lately. You had to love seeing Ekpe get his first real shot tonight!!!!
I know Warrior fans are frustrated. I am frustrated. But, we have owned this team for a month!!! I promise we will not settle for losing. We will make changes to improve any aspect of the team. And, note that not everybody will agree with the actions we do take. Everybody has their own opinion. But, realize that we cannot just randomly throw darts against the wall. Trust that we are looking at potential moves every single day. We want to get better today. Now. But, we need to think through the longer term impact of any changes.
So, as representative of the greater Warrior fan community, recognizing that we all want instant gratification, don't blame the new ownership group for the sins of the past. Give us a chance to fix the situation. I hope we can do it quickly but in all honesty, it may take a little time and a few moves to get there.
Meanwhile, not that it is any consolation, I am also in great pain tonight. I HATE losing. I simply cannot stand it. But, I do support my guys and i am going to be right back tomorrow rooting for them to turn this around ASAP. And I know that they care. They are trying hard. It is my job to give them more resources if and when I can do so. And I will.
Happy holidays to you and your family, too.
Joe
Times may be tough right now for all you GSOM'ers, but don't get down on the future. We got ourselves one good owner. I can't wait to see what's coming.
GO WARRIORS!!!!
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Wow...
Every passing day I like these guys even more. I wouldn’t be anymore surprised if they came over here for advice.
I’ll give my B+ advice free, but I’m available for consulting, contract work or regular employment if they’re looking for the A-game.
What will it take to get your A+ advice?
Lifetime courtside seasons tickets for free? VIP parking spot next to lacob? Replacing the mini-maggette in the 4th quarter trampoline dunk act?
SO you’re only willing to take a 10% pay cut for your dream job? You must have a pretty awesome job as is. That or a really terrible one and a 20% pay cut would put you below the poverty line.
So you’ll give them your A- game instead of your B+ game? For free, ya’ might as well just settle for the B+. heh heh (Yes, I know that’s a dash and not a minus sign).
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Tell him to get a new coach and fire Rowell.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Why does Lacob continue to look at the past as a scapegoat? Dude, the issues that need to be fixed are now.
There are rarely ‘quick fixes’ during the middle of a season. If a trade presents itself, it’s something to be considered, but realistically, this isn’t a team that any old move will work to turn around. A coaching change would be a start, but realistically, we’re not looking at a long term solution there mid season either. I wish they’d have tried someone other than Smart for this season’s audition, but realistically, I don’t think that would have made a huge difference either. Coaches rarely make huge differences, though since it’s easier to replace one coach than to replace 12-15 players, they’re the convenient scapegoat.
Lacob points out (accurately) that he’s been the owner for a month. We’ve attributed moves that were made since the deal was agreed upon (but not finalized by the NBA) to the ‘new regime’ but I don’t think we know how much input he really had at the time. I don’t think it’s really clear to any of us what really happened in the off-season decision making, but I’m certain it wasn’t entirely Lacob’s call on anything. The ‘old regime’ was still largely in place and since these sorts of sales do at times fall apart, I suspect there was reluctance from Cohan to give up too much control until the check cleared. I suspect it was more of a “you think it’s ok to go after Lee? Because we’re going after Lee and we’d like to get your input. So you like that, cool! We’ll get it done!” rather than a heavy evaluation of all the options. That move, combined with the Maggette drop kick, changed some of the face of the team, but it wasn’t a total makeover. The long term salary structure was extended slightly, but stayed reasonably similar for the next couple of years. Without a finalized deal, that’s really about the best we could have expected in the off-season.
This is still largely the Cohan team that takes the floor. Lacob and Gruber were not in a position to do a major remake this offseason where the long term salary structure or pick outlook gets radically revised. The trade deadline could be interesting, but I suspect it’s this coming off-season where we’ll see some movement.
I’m encouraged by the enthusiasm Lacob shows. It’s important. If he can combine it with the cold-assassin’s aim that is necessary to make the tough calls on personnel, we’re in good shape. But that’s not a given. Owners are, I suspect, like fans and tend to over-value what they already have, growing attachments to players who are on the roster, confusing hope for what they think a player can become with reality of what a player is and what it’s likely he will become. (Note to Lacob and company: 25 year olds are less likely to improve substantially than to have already reached a peak.)
If there’s something to over-read into his response, it’s the evaluation of what we’ve seen this year. I’m bothered that Lacob seems to think that Monta is doing all he can. It may be that he’s not going to publicly call out what is still one of the team’s better assets, but the “high level” that Monta is playing at is superficially high, based largely on the over-valued and over-compensated ppg measure. I’ll try not to read too much into this, but the fatal fascination with a high ppg output, concluding that this means he can’t be part of what’s holding the team back, looms as something that this team will have to get beyond if we’re ever going to make a real splash. Promoting a B grade star (and yes, I think that’s where Monta stands, one of those “stars” who works well when he’s inserted with other more dynamic players who command the ball; where he is surrounded by defenders who mask his shortcomings there) to A grade centerpiece (the type that you expect to be a dynamic and efficient producer at one end and solid defender at the other) when he’s just not that guy can waste years until it becomes obvious that it wasn’t ever going to work.
And I don’t bring this up to favor ‘dumping’ Monta or anyone else. He has value, both as a player and as a potential piece in a team makeover. What presents itself down the line should determine how he’s used. And this is true for everyone on the roster. I do hope that Lacob jettisons a “build around” philosophy in favor of simply looking at true player value and trying to maximize it in all situations. Unless you’ve got one of the best half-dozen players in the league (and we don’t, and it’s not even close) ‘building around’ your subsuper-star is a recipe for disappointment.
by jae on Dec 21, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions 11 recs
clap. clap. clap.
Well said sir!
rec’d
but more importantly, enjoyed
My one ongoing issue with the Monta bashhers around here is that his low efficiency means that he is a bad player. We will need to plan to use him more wisely if we ever want to see his efficiency go up.
These players are not automated efficiency engines, chucking up shots that all have an equal chance of going in. We are running him too far beyond his capabilities, and have been for the past couple years
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Thanks.
I think what separates out the A-list stars from the B-list stars is how necessary a supporting cast is to keep them performing at a high level (read: total production and efficiency at this). A-list stars are efficiency machines, even guards who have no support. Wade’s efficiency hasn’t varied much when the next best scorer on the team was Beasley and what it is today alongside Bosh and Lebron. Kobe’s efficiency (though never as lofty as one would hope for someone often erroneously labeled as the best in the game) didn’t take a hit at all once Shaq was traded away. Paul’s efficiency seems to continue to go up and up and up, independent of an otherwise lackluster supporting cast. (Kevin Martin may similarly be an efficiency machine just scoring, though he’s a one-dimensional contributor – - all offense – - and as such, does not really warrant inclusion with the aforementioned as win creators. I wonder if Curry fits this bill as well, a guy who can shoot well enough to be efficient in absence of anyone else to take the heat).
While a few delusional souls post like Monta is in this class of scorer, he isn’t. His ball handling skills aren’t sufficient for him to consistently abuse people in a half court. He isn’t big enough to out-muscle other guards night in and night out. He isn’t a dead-eye long range shooter. He isn’t a dynamic playmaker who, if you try to stop his scoring will just find the open man time and time again, making pedestrian teammates play like stars on the nights where he’s held off from shooting himself. The a-list guards mentioned above have one or more of those skills that allow them to succeed without help.
Monta is quicker than most and if a defense isn’t set up, he’ll exploit it getting to the hole, and his mid range game is solid enough that when a defense has to concentrate on others. The former works better with good defense to generate turnovers (like the gambling pressure generated by Jax and Pietrus and Barnes) and a dynamic open court playmaker to get it to Monta on the break (Curry is not this sort of point guard at this point — Baron was). These aren’t circumstances where the ball is in his hands much. These aren’t circumstances that the Warriors are currently set up to have happen that often. As such, Monta’s true talents go to waste here, though the freedom he seems to be given to shoot over and over again (seen by many as a necessity, though I strongly feel that this is overblown) and his only pedestrian ability to get others involved means that when it’s in his hands, it’s going to wind up staying there even when a good shot doesn’t present itself to him.
These are fantastic players to have if the surroundings are right. And that might happen here again. I would never, ever recommend trying to fit the players around him to make that situation though. If it happens, great, but that shouldn’t be the goal as it limits decisions and possibilities. That’s rarely good strategy.
But he's not paid to be an A-List star
Lacob didn’t say anything inaccurate. In context of last nights game, yes Monta played at a high level, no there was not more he could do, and yes he needs help.
Lacob was also very critical of Monta when he bought the team. Did he not single out Curry and Lee as the ‘good players’ neglecting Monta??? I have seen zero signals from Lacob to think he wouldn’t move Monta for an elite player if he had the option. The guy constantly talks about what they did in Boston. Which at the time was trading a bunch of potential players (at this point Al Jefferson was what, 21 and off a year where he scored well and rebounded at a very high level and was generally considered a very promising talent) along with a top 5 pick for two players over the age of 30 (be it all stars).
At the moment (2010/2011 season) Monta has scored as efficiently than your mentioned Kobe or more than other guards who are seen as stars (Rose, Westbrook). (Infact Monta year is exactly at Kobe’s career TS%). Not that Monta is anywhere near the all around player (he isn’t).
Am I opposed to trading Monta or any player on the roster? No. But I think it’s important that any trade made nets us an actual upgrade.
Monta carries the offense, and trading him for a player who is a less capable scorer/creator (Wallace, Iguodala) but a better defender and all around player will not make the team much better. We’re trading one weakness for another. And since we’d still have no financial flexibility there would be no way to bring in pieces to supplement that move. Now maybe it would in context of being a supporting piece to an actual A-list star like you listed, but then again couldn’t you say Monta could do that as well? Be the 2nd option to an actual elite producing player like Lebron, Durant, Pau, you name it.
To sum up my point, I think it’s time to stop with these lateral moves for less than elite potential players. The only way the Warriors will move into consistent playoff contenders is by possessing a player like the ones you listed, and then surrounding them with the right mixture of players. Whether it’s a star or a young player (like Blake Griffin) who has clear star potential.
Seems to me it’s better to wait for the right move to pull the trigger on the wrong one. I think Lacob agrees. Sadly players who can change a franchise aren’t put on the block every week. Otherwise we really only have one other options. Scrap the ship. Trade Monta, Lee and Biedrins for expirings plus whatever young talent and picks we can get. Stockpile young talent the way OKC, Portland did and hope to find the next Durant/Griffin/whoever in the draft to compliment Curry.
by tafkasam on Dec 21, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Monta carries the offense, and trading him for a player who is a less capable scorer/creator (Wallace, Iguodala) but a better defender and all around player will not make the team much better. We’re trading one weakness for another.
I respectfully disagree that trading Monta’s offensive talents for the defense and size of a Iggy or Wallace is at the end of the day, qui pro quo. It’s not. The Warriors record is evidence that Monta’s offense doesn’t win games.
Now, I do agree that if we were to bring in a Iggy or Wallace, some changes, perhaps drastic, need to happen on how the offense is initiated, but I kind of like that the team will now be forced to play within a structure rather than rely on Monta’s incredible, gravity defying feats.
Amidst trying to find an offensive rhythm, we all have wondered and asked ourselves, “where would we be without Monta?”
Well, we know where we are WITH him, 9-18.
Some of the boxscores may indicate a more efficient Monta, but he’s still a player that demands the ball and doesn’t have the ability to adapt to adept defenses.
I agree that a lateral move wouldn’t help the Warriors, but trading Monta for an Iggy or a Wallace isn’t a lateral move. It’s an upgrade.
We would need a coach with the ability to create an offense with that type of talent though. Maybe Smart is that coach. IMO and thus far, he isn’t the coach for THIS team.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 21, 2010 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
talkasam
I guess what I’m trying to say is you can’t acknowledge that Monta’s not an elite level player and then ask for nothing less than elite talent back for him.
You also (hypothetically) suggested trading Monta (and others) for cap space and draft picks for the opportunity to get elite level players.
Well, isn’t that kind of a two-steps backwards type of thing?
Instead, why don’t the Warriors trade Monta for whatever he’s worth (Fair Market Value) for players that fit this team and team’s vision better?
If we want elite talent back, we’d have to consider trading Curry, who isn’t elite but has the potential to be.
I think there’s several ways to acquire elite talent and sometimes it’s not just through one trade or a few expiring contracts. For the Warriors, it might have to be a combination of all that. And maybe for that to happen, there first needs to be a change in the front office and coach’s chair.
Or we could just wait and see where this season takes us. Looking GREAT so far!
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 21, 2010 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
The Warriors record is evidence that Monta’s offense doesn’t win games.
This is pretty fallacious argument, with all due respect. If it’s that simple we’d do a complete roster overhaul – we’re losing WITH DLee, WITH Biedrins, WITH curry…..does that mean they need to go, too?
Here’s my opinion, and I know people will disagree: in the NBA, coaches have more success teaching defense than they do offense. Offense is a skill players develop over 20 years. Defense is largely a mentality and a dedication.
Look at the championship teams of the past decade: The Lakers (twice), Celtics, and Spurs. With the exception of 1, maybe 2 players on each team, these aren’t teams with players drafted for defensive purposes. They all had elite-scorers. Who was more important, Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest and Tony Allen? Or Manu Ginobili, Kobe Bryant and Paul Pierce?
While offense is a team game, too, it’s unrealistic in this league to think that you can score without pure, gifted scorers. Defense remains a team game. I’m all in favor of making a free agent run at an elite defender, but don’t give up an elite scorer to get one.
Keith Smart was hired largely to teach the team how to play defense. Let’s see if he can do that, and if not, hire somebody who can.
But the fact is, there have been many times (Just last year: Bucks and Bobcats) where a team has learned how to play defense. But there have rarely – if ever – been times where Gerald Wallace learned how to play offense like Monta Ellis.
Not to beat a dead horse, but one last example:
The Charlotte Bobcats, with Stephen Jackson, Gerald Wallace, Nazr Mohammed, DeSagna Diop and Tyrus Thomas (all players in the NBA largely for defense), but no top-tier scorers, are 9-18.
The San Antonio Spurs, on the other hand, with only an aging Tim Duncan known for his defense, are 24-3 with three all-star scorers.
To clarify: definitely NOT saying offense wins championships. defense does. But you can teach defense more easily than you can teach offense.
in my opinion.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
by bradyk2 on Dec 21, 2010 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
EDIT
by “Lakers (twice)” I meant two separate teams, not that they only won twice. Those three franchises, if I’m correct, won 6 or 7 of the championships this decade.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
bradyk2. I thought you said it best:
If it’s that simple we’d do a complete roster overhaul – we’re losing WITH DLee, WITH Biedrins, WITH curry…..does that mean they need to go, too?
Maybe we need to overhaul some Warriors fans’ outlook in life as it applies to everything. I understand the frustrations but I think patience is the absoulute key. We got what we wanted in getting rid of Cohan, and even though our product now isn’t what we want, I love having Joe Lacob representing the team so far.
Injuries should never be an excuse but it should really be considered in part to why we are losing as Lacob mentions.
Just wait and things will get better. Because I said so.
In closing. I loved how Joe Lacob used the word. “Damn.”
LOL. he probably would get warned by the mods if he was a regular on GSoM for failing to use more acceptable words like “Arse”.
LGW still.
ROMESdavidWOOD37 has taken over the Ongline. He's cool.
by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Dec 21, 2010 3:59 PM PST up reply actions
it’s also worth noting that, even if people think Monta can’t be “the man” offensively that we build around…..so what? Last I checked, the guys who are “the man” aren’t exactly available. Sure we could trade monta, but it’s not like we’re getting a Dirk or a Durant for him. We’ll still be “the man-less”
It’s like the people who say “if the 49ers were smart, they’d get a much better QB than A. Smith for next season.”
sure. just give me a ring when Tom Brady’s on the trading block this offseason…
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
…..so what? Last I checked, the guys who are "the man" aren’t exactly available.
What is that we take the attitude of going all out looking for that guy and not be happy with a flawed team.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 22, 2010 9:45 AM PST up reply actions
could you rephrase, skep? I’m not quite understanding what you’re saying.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
I’m not quite understanding what you’re saying.
Sorry, I was trying to say we gotta try to build the right way even if there are no obvious players available. Just saying we’re commited to a Montaycentric team means we are not putting in maximum effort to get better. The long term answer is not clear right now but the goal should be to find it instead of just looking to win a few games right now.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 22, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
ahh I gotcha now
My bad; haven’t had enough tea/coffee yet this morning!
I do completely agree with your statement. a Montacentric team is not a good idea. I just balk (heavily) at the approach that says: we can’t win with monta as our #1, let’s get rid of him. I just think that’s an exceedingly poor approach to take, especially with only one elite player (Carmelo) available, and us with no chance of getting him.
I agree that we need to make moves. But I am in favor of keeping our best pieces – unless they help net us better pieces, of course.
In my opinion, a lot of GSoMers see the Monta situation as very black and white: either we are fully committed to him being “the man,” or we get rid of him. I see no reason why we can’t find a middle ground, where we accept that Monta isn’t going to win an MVP award, but also accept that, well, he makes this team better, and we shouldn’t look for a way to dump him.
And I am a strong proponent of a leader/good player assuming the role of “the man,” until a superstar is found. I am happy with the way Monta has done this so far.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
Monta wants to be the man
Just not the only man.
He can carry a lot of the workload for our team, but this turns out to be pretty worthless most of the time, since the other contributions are sorely lacking
(except of course Vlad, who is beyond reproach)
I see no reason why we can’t find a middle ground,
because if we all sat around here agreeing on everything, it would be too boring
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 22, 2010 10:59 AM PST up reply actions
because if we all sat around here agreeing on everything, it would be too boring
haha, well played.
I guess I’m just saying we need 12 guys on a team, and five on a court. monta’s a heck of a player. he may not be “the man,” but can’t he be one of the other 11 guys that heavily contributes to a team’s success?
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
I am definately on the "keep Monta" team
unless a damn sweet, irresistable deal comes along.
he is a solid 2nd option, so is Steph, we still need that solid 1st option though
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 22, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
sometimes I wonder, though
It’s not a mold to necessarily try to follow, but the Pistons teams of the mid-decade were pretty awesome. they’re probably the only championship team without an elite player, but with sheed, prince, rip and billups, they had four guys who would be solid “2nd” guys on a championship team. We have three (monta, curry, and Lee, assuming he returns to form when healthy). If we could find a fourth, and Udoh turns into Ben Wallace in the middle…..hey, I can dream right?
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
they’re probably the only championship team without an elite player
That’s one school of thought. Another is that they had a couple of elite players but one was an elite defender and offense always garners more attention and one could never overcome the perception that he just wasn’t elite because his career started very slowly. Still, the productivity that Billups and Ben Wallace provided was elite.
the fact that it seems like such an anomoly
Also means that it would probably be pretty hard to replicate.
And I’m with jae…Wallace and Chauncey seemed pretty damn elite back then. Even Prince and Rip looked extremely solid, good on both ends of the floor. Our guys, you gotta love ’em, but none of them are known for being masters of both ends of the court
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
I share this dream with you
Udoh turns into Ben Wallace
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
I agree with what you guys said
just bringing up the pistons as an example.
and I guess you could call B. Wallace and Billups elite. Wallace was clearly an elite defender, though he was detrimental on offense. That season, Billups averaged 17 points and less than 6 assists per game – monta and steph put up better numbers, if either of them can learn to be the leader that Chauncey is/was.
Not saying that there weren’t very good players on that team. Just saying that, with the exception of the Pistons, no team in the last 15 years has won an NBA championship without Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Duncan or Garnett.
It just seems like, unless you’re in South Beach and have near-infinite cap space, there’s no formula to getting a superstar. Not trying to sound like a debby-downer, it just feels like a lot of people are saying “Monta’s no Kevin Durant.” well, true….but I just don’t see how we’re going to get a kevin durant.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
Wallace was clearly an elite defender, though he was detrimental on offense.
He wasn’t a big help on offense via scoring, this is true. But I don’t think ‘detriment’ is the right description. He didn’t take a whole bunch of shots and didn’t detract from the offense by firing up misses. He didn’t detract by turning the ball over a bunch. He was a terrible FT shooter, but didn’t detract much because he was so rarely fouled and rarely shot FTs. He did help on offense in an important and under appreciated way. He got offensive rebounds, negating a teammate’s miss each time he did this.
I suspect had the tables been turned, had Wallace been as dominant on offense as he was on defense, but been as limited defensively as he was offensively, no one would doubt considering him the “superstar” that most championship teams have.
I also suspect that having a player who contributes little on offense so long as he doesn’t detract by doing things he will fail at is easier to hide than an inept defender. You have 4 other guys to take shots, but the opposition will do what they can to go right at an inept defender over and over, and over again. It well can be harder to hide this detriment than it is to hide a single non-scorer on offense.
The game makes offense conspicuous. It’s a high scoring game. Inept teams still never get shut out (or come anywhere close). And we track points and report them such that even people who claim that they don’t use stats to judge players are almost certainly heavily influenced by a player’s per game scoring numbers. As a result of the nature of the game it seems that offense is more important and players are rewarded financially and with accolades accordingly. But the influence of defense on the game is just as important as the influence of offense.
by jae on Dec 23, 2010 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Late reply but
I agree with this. On a slightly related note, something I’m skeptical of is the WoW metric that equates defense with rebounding, and largely ignores less measurable defensive contributions.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Dec 29, 2010 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
we’re commited to a Montaycentric team
Actually the way this team was assembled with added scorers like Curry,Lee,Wright and Williams it looks to me like the idea was the opposite of a Montacentric team but Monta always seems to be the “last man standing” with Warriors injurys and then plays like it is on his shoulders to" try" and win……which often seems to be the situation that he is in.
Seems that along with his negative stats there should be a parallel stat showing Warrior injuries to see how it corralates.
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 23, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Seems that along with his negative stats there should be a parallel stat showing Warrior injuries to see how it correlate
How playing with Montay causes players to fall like autumn leaves?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 25, 2010 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
This is pretty fallacious argument, with all due respect.
My point was that Monta’s abilities aren’t going to garner an elite level talent in return.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 22, 2010 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
and trading him is?
save for the occasional block-buster trade, there are only two ways to get stars in the NBA:
1) draft. and i do not support tanking. ever.
2) Free agency. my guess is a star would rather play with Monta Ellis than Gerald Wallace.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
MY BAD
sorry, misread your comment here. my original statement was referring to your first post, “we know where we are WITH him, 9-18,” without regards for your second post, “ask for nothing less than elite talent back for him.”
my apologies for the confusion.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
Oh, no worries. I think we might be arguing the same thing. Basically, I don’t think we can get elite level talent back for him, even if we package him with other assets. But, I don’t think that’s necessarily a horrible thing. There’s no reason why the team can’t be upgraded by replacing Ellis with players that would help the team in other ways.
With everything, there’s risk, but I would venture to say that it’s worth the risk.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 22, 2010 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
I'm going to reply to points in both posts in one response
Well, we know where we are WITH him, 9-18.
True, also with curry missing time and playing injured, Lee playing injured and more or less producing like AR on a good day. How can we really blame Monta for the current record? Because he’s not Lebron? I never said he was Lebron. He’s not a player who will win games on his own but he is a valuable player who can help win in context of a better team. If you haven’t noticed. We don’t have a good team. People overvaluing Reggie Williams, Dorell and Biedrins value as a way to say Monta isn’t good doesn’t help either. Without a healthy Curry and a healthy Lee we have real problems.
We would need a coach with the ability to create an offense with that type of talent though. Maybe Smart is that coach. IMO and thus far, he isn’t the coach for THIS team.
True, but on the flip side, Monta has scored fairly efficiently this year with that same coach. Literally everyone else (bar Curry) has not. Shouldn’t Monta with a better coach continue to score even more efficiently?
I guess what I’m trying to say is you can’t acknowledge that Monta’s not an elite level player and then ask for nothing less than elite talent back for him.
Well yeah, Monta straight for an elite player won’t happen but Monta + something is a possiblity. I’m just saying we should be aiming to make THIS type of deal instead of Iggy or Gerald Wallace or other nonelite players, whether you rate them higher than Monta or not. Elite talent wins. I’d rather gut the team and find role players later after we’ve found those elite players, than have a lot of nice complimentary pieces (Biedrins, Dorell, whoever) with no star.
You also (hypothetically) suggested trading Monta (and others) for cap space and draft picks for the opportunity to get elite level players.
Well, isn’t that kind of a two-steps backwards type of thing?
Sort of. But sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. Elite players don’t get put on the trade market often and we don’t have ability to really attract one via free agency. It’s more likely we could groom one from the draft, and to do that, we’d most likely have to be a top 2 or 3 pick, IE be awful.
Instead, why don’t the Warriors trade Monta for whatever he’s worth (Fair Market Value) for players that fit this team and team’s vision better?
Agree to disagree. I still value Monta’s production higher than players you mentioned. I can’t see the team being more than a 40ish win team with Wallace or Iggy in Monta’s place and that’s IF curry makes the jump we assume. If Curry makes that jump though to an upper teir point guard, we should be able to hit those numbers with Monta too, just in a different way. We’d be scoring a lot more. We’d be a version of the Nash Phoenix suns
If we want elite talent back, we’d have to consider trading Curry, who isn’t elite but has the potential to be.
I’m not opposed IF it’s elite talent. CP3 for example. Again, not going to trade Curry for anything less than elite talent.
You know
you use that same exact logic to crap on players like Kevin Love. How do you reconcile that?
I'll sell this vacant lot and settle down in a place I've only read about in books about Miles Davis.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 21, 2010 5:36 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I kind of realize that my grammar was kind of lacking. I meant this statement from Doctor Kajita which is “The Warriors record is evidence that Monta’s offense doesn’t win games.” You go on to make excuses for Monta, but I’ve also seen you use DK’s logic to crap on good players on bad teams like Kevin Love. How do you reconcile this? Homerism?
I'll sell this vacant lot and settle down in a place I've only read about in books about Miles Davis.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 21, 2010 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
below
I might have been unclear. I don’t think Kevin Love is a huge upgrade to the team from a healthy DLee, regardless of his gawdy rebounding numbers…
Ah okay
I'll sell this vacant lot and settle down in a place I've only read about in books about Miles Davis.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 21, 2010 7:10 PM PST up reply actions
I'd agree.
He’s not a low post guy, doesn’t defend, and isn’t a whole lot better from DLee.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
and this is really the important distinction in this argument
and isn’t a whole lot better from DLee.
He is probably better (and younger, so probably will improve more), and he’s got that sweet little 3-point shot.
But is this really a significant upgrade from what Lee brings us?
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 10:41 AM PST up reply actions
Isn’t Monta a good player on a bad team?
"Morrow... That's a two pointer!"
-Kevin Harlan for the 22nd time during an NBA 2k11 exhibition
by don't leave Morrow! on Dec 22, 2010 11:17 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah,
but he’s not as good as Kevin Love.
I think it’s important to remove a player’s production from their team’s success. Love is a very good player on a very bad team. I think he’s playing with maybe 1 average player.
It's biodigital jazz, man.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 22, 2010 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
oh..... are you saying cause Love doesn't have a supporting cast?
I think you missed my point. I said I don’t think he’s a tangible upgrade on a healthy DLee. Lee rebounds worse than him but does other things better in an uptempo system which is what we should be running with Curry, Monta and Biedrins.
But Love’s a good player. Again, like Curry, Lee or Monta I don’t rate him as a player who can carry your team but can be valuable to the team.
I’d rather have Howard, Amare, Pau, Bosh, Odom, Horford, JSmoov, Dirk, Duncan, BGriffin over KLove. IF you’re offering me bigs…
How can we really blame Monta for the current record?
Well, we could point to several things, but I wasn’t blaming Monta for the record. I was just merely pointing out that if we wanted an elite level talent in return for Monta, people will point to things like the team’s overall performance. He is one of the key players on the team, in fact I’d argue he is the number one key for the team.
He’s not a player who will win games on his own but he is a valuable player who can help win in context of a better team. If you haven’t noticed. We don’t have a good team. People overvaluing Reggie Williams, Dorell and Biedrins value as a way to say Monta isn’t good doesn’t help either. Without a healthy Curry and a healthy Lee we have real problems.
Exactly why we won’t get elite level talent back for him, even if we package him with other assets not named Curry.
Well yeah, Monta straight for an elite player won’t happen but Monta + something is a possiblity.
Like? If you provide a reasonable example, I might change my mind. I’ve racked my brain on how we can get elite talent back for Monta (and not Curry) but when I consider what other teams have such as the New Jersey Nets, there’s no way the Warriors can compete with Monta + something.
Agree to disagree. I still value Monta’s production higher than players you mentioned. I can’t see the team being more than a 40ish win team with Wallace or Iggy in Monta’s place and that’s IF curry makes the jump we assume. If Curry makes that jump though to an upper teir point guard, we should be able to hit those numbers with Monta too, just in a different way. We’d be scoring a lot more. We’d be a version of the Nash Phoenix suns
I don’t follow. You value Monta more than Iggy and Wallace, I get that, but are you saying we should keep Monta if Curry becomes a Nash type player because we’d score more? That still leaves a gaping hole on defense in the backcourt. We saw and are still seeing how a high scoring backcourt of Curry and Monta isn’t going to make up for the deficiencies on defense on most nights.
Or are you saying if Curry becomes Steve Nash, Monta’s value will go up to a point where we can get elite talent back if we decided to trade him? If Curry becomes Nash, I think a lot of players’ values will go up, but are we going to allow this team to keep losing until then because I don’t think it’s happening this season (Curry becoming Nash).
Again, not going to trade Curry for anything less than elite talent.
I agree.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 22, 2010 10:03 AM PST up reply actions
Any thoughts on Biedrins for Wallace?
We could keep our offensive talent and gain the lockdown defense and superhuman rebounding Wallace offers.
And yes, this idea assumes that Udoh can replace Biedrins without a huge dropoff.
"Morrow... That's a two pointer!"
-Kevin Harlan for the 22nd time during an NBA 2k11 exhibition
by don't leave Morrow! on Dec 22, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
I’m not a fan of this simply because Udoh is still a mystery and because we’re still left with an undersized backcourt. It wouldn’t be so bad if Monta would stop with the reaching defense all the time. I get that it pays off once in a while, but once in a while vs. being a consistent, reliable defender is different.
This is not Monta hate. This is Monta reality. I love the guy but I may have to eat my words where I have argued that he could work out for this team “if” but “if” isn’t really happening.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 22, 2010 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
Maybe I'm too attached to Monta
OR maybe I’m tired of seeing EVERYONE of our players leave cause they were deemed ‘not good enough’ and then starred elsewhere
OR maybe I’m tired of seeing EVERYONE of our players leave cause they were deemed ‘not good enough’ and then starred elsewhere
I’m tired of people pretending that this happens regularly. The players who have departed have done about what they did here for other teams. This notion that everyone the Warriors get rid of turn into stars is a gross distortion of reality.
Missing my point Jae
In most cases they did produce at a similar rate but with better supporting cast/situations. Point being they weren’t ‘the problem’ at GSW. (Well except for Spree, but his problem wasn’t on the court).
In most every case Warriors got the short end of the stick, with less talent, always building towards a period which never comes, instead of keeping there good players and finding players around it.
In no way am I saying build around Monta, he’s the best in the league. I’m saying why do we need to keep giving up productive players because they aren’t ‘productive enough’ or as good as ‘star player x’. Instead lateral moves or potential moves are mad and they never pay off. Which is why I am sticking to my point of view, don’t trade any of the trio of Curry, Lee, Monta unless it really does net us a true difference maker, an elite player, etc. That is unless one of that trio proves to be that front line player (like a chris paul, kevin durant etc.) where you truly can build around them in which cause a lateral move for more complimentary talent might make sense. I get that idea. I think it’s VERY premature to assume Curry is that guy and dump Monta. Heck we did that with Baron and JRich for Monta.
I think it’s VERY premature to assume Curry is that guy and dump Monta. Heck we did that with Baron and JRich for Monta.
No we din’t, Boom was a good sized point and Jrich a full sized 2 guard. Binky has point skills while Montay doesn’t. They were hoping Montay’d develop point skills but it was just wishful thinking. It’s simple physics if you look at it logically.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 22, 2010 9:44 PM PST up reply actions
Binky has point skills while Montay doesn’t.
His assist to turn over ratio is worse than most ball dominant 2guards. BRoy and Iggy are better than Curry at that respect.
So far curry’s only real elite asset is his shooting. His “PG skills” are alll potential
debatable
curry has mad quick hands. the kid knows how to steal. and his ball handling is incredible when he’s on his game. he’s still learning, so his TO ratio is high. but he shows a formidable point guard sometimes
Steph + Monta for Prez
I should say
His ballhandling isn’t problem with his PG ability. But his decision making and vision are debateable. More the decisionmaking
His "PG skills" are all potential
I was skeptical when we drafted him but he showed some fantastic handling and passing skills last year as a rookie. We just gotta design a game plan that capitalizes on them.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 23, 2010 9:18 AM PST up reply actions
heck, we did that with Baron and JRich for Monta
really?
I kinda feel like we did actually. JRich was the more obvious, becuase our previous jerk owner decided that he could save a ton of money by cutting JRich and moving Monta (ok, there was probably a little bit of player development in the decision too)
And BDiddy, in hindsight, it looks like a great move; but I really thought one of the big reasons we let BDiddy go was because the team seemed to think Monta could run the point
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
gah, massive reply fail
was in response to Skep, saying (in response to tafkasam)
No we din’t, Boom was a good sized point and Jrich a full sized 2 guard.
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
I don’t follow. You value Monta more than Iggy and Wallace, I get that, but are you saying we should keep Monta if Curry becomes a Nash type player because we’d score more? That still leaves a gaping hole on defense in the backcourt. We saw and are still seeing how a high scoring backcourt of Curry and Monta isn’t going to make up for the deficiencies on defense on most nights.
To sum up, no I don’t think it’s in our best interest to trade Monta now period, unless we get elite talent. And we won’t so DON’T trade him…
The rest of it’s just going in circles. I see him improving his game every day. Watch him start hitting free throws by 80% by seasons end like he learned to shoot the mid range jumper, shoot 3s and gobs of other skills he’s got. Maybe I’m a homer, I just think his upside is higher than any of those guys. He’s still young in context of minutes. He has only had 3 full seasons of extensive minutes and 1 in a completely new ‘leading’ role. The whole ‘hes been in league 6 years thing is kinda an exagerration. He didn’t play his first year, was a 6th man his second, broke out his 3rd, broke his ankle his 4th.
We can deal with that option (curry being a star and Monta being too much a liability) when we get there. But I’d rather not give up yet.
Yeah he was poor last year. He also didn’t really play season before so it was his first real year without Baron, Jack, there was all sorts of peril on the team and on top of it, everyone and there mom got hurt. It happens….
Fair enough.
Maybe I’m too quick to jump on the trade-Monta bangwagon. I would be willing to give Monta a little bit more time, but I’d like to see his development in parallel with actual wins.
I realize a lot of that is contingent on other players too, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask Monta to be THE player to lead the march.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 22, 2010 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
Monta carries the offense, and trading him for a player who is a less capable scorer/creator (Wallace, Iguodala) but a better defender and all around player will not make the team much better.
That’s not entirely clear. Based on how defense is undervalued by most fans (and GMs) and how scoring is overvalued, though they are equally important to the game, based on past results where teams have lost their top scorers but still somehow managed to remain offensively competent, I suspect that the Warriors could get better by trading Monta for someone who is not as prolific a scorer but a better defender.
We’re seeing a slightly better Monta who has had two spectacular games, one of which we’ve won, one we’ve lost. He’s got a 53TS% excluding the two Houston games. No, it’s not fair to discount those games when looking at his season, but it’s a reasonable indicator of what he’s like on those nights where things aren’t stellar, which is is most nights. If you take out his worst nights in compensatory fairness, his efficiency is real, real average. That’s the sort of top scoring guard performance you can see on a team that is hovering a bit below .500, which is what I suspect we’d be if Lee and Biedrins and Curry had been healthier.
The points that he’s not being paid like an alpha star are correct. He’s paid like a good starter, which is what he is. He’s treated by some on this board as if he’s something more than that, and in absence of better players who are consistently healthy, he’s been shoved into that role. And he hasn’t done well in that role, though the high ppg has fooled many of the people much of the time.
The points that he’s not being paid like an alpha star are correct. He’s paid like a good starter, which is what he is. He’s treated by some on this board as if he’s something more than that, and in absence of better players who are consistently healthy, he’s been shoved into that role. And he hasn’t done well in that role, though the high ppg has fooled many of the people much of the time.
I feel the opposite way, to be honest. What he does is readily brushed aside and everyone is ready to jump minute he has a bad shooting or turn over night (which he will when he’s the lone ball handler.
Eitherway I don’t feel I’m out of touch with what he is. I might be more optimistic on his impact in the context of a better constructed team but not out of touch.
As for your point on defense, I agree 100% percent BUT the point I was getting at was, this roster lacks any plus defenders. Will one make a big difference? We’ll still be a poor defensive team, and if that player can’t produce on par with Monta offensively it’s possible we get worse.
Like it or not this team is built for a running uptempo d’antoni/nellie style system which disgards standard defense. Curry is a poor defender, Lee is a poor defender, Biedrins and Dorell are average at best. Now I’m not saying you need 5 plus defenders to be a good defensive team. But you certainly need more than 1. I guess this speaks also to problem with Lee aquisition. We picked up a nice offensive player, better than any PF we’ve had in a while BUT he can’t play defense and Biedrins is not nearly good enough to cover for him.
Then if we want to continue we have a head coach who doesn’t want to scheme the team to it’s strengths…. all and all I’m feeling very much like it’s putting a square peg in a round hole.
Like it or not this team is built for a running uptempo d’antoni/nellie style system which disgards standard defense
Many of us don’t like it, and want to change the way the team is built. You seem to be ok with the status quo. Is that not a fair characterization of your position?
Yes and No
I love uptempo systems like Nellie. And I do believe it can be successful with right personnel. Look at Phoenix over the past few years. They’ve been so close. I still think there failure was ultimately lack of talent rather than system. Not that they lacked talent, but when they got to western conference finals v. Spurs or Lakers, they didn’t have as much as those teams….Last years Suns might have been a Biedrins away from beating La. Robin Lopez did his best wanna-biedrins (see what i did there?) but ultimately no where near the level of say a healthy 07-08 biedrins. Eh they probably still needed a little more production than that but still….
But no, I do not like Warriors play, not really since 07-08, because we’ve played a s****y version of that. Our failures has less to do with the system and more personnel.
Ultimately I don’t think you’ll see the best of any of our important personnel if we don’t play an uptempo system. Lee/Biedrins are not half court players. Curry and Monta are significantly better in an uptempo system.
I’ll tell you what I am a believe in “you run a system that works best for your personnel”. This is a reason I rate Pop as best coach in NBA. His spur teams always tailored to his personnel (BTW, they are playing some of the best bball to watch in NBA right now) If we want to be a half court defense and bang team, we probably should trade everyone.
Popovich has the ability to do so.
Smart has been under Nellie for years and so I think he knows Nellie’s system better than he knows other systems (and he may be worse at running them).
Our personnel, when healthy, can run a fast-break system well because we can create turnovers and rebound well.
"Morrow... That's a two pointer!"
-Kevin Harlan for the 22nd time during an NBA 2k11 exhibition
by don't leave Morrow! on Dec 22, 2010 11:24 AM PST up reply actions
He didn't pick up a basketball yesterday, either.
Smart just isn’t a GOOD head coach.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Will one make a big difference?
I believe that better defenders make for better defense. Given that it’s pretty clear that we don’t have anyone who matches up with big off guard, I think it’s an area where it might make more of a difference that you suspect. One player will not have as much effect as two, or three, or four, or five, but it’s better than zero. And it’s a step in the right direction. The “one player won’t make a difference” seems defeatist, a justification for not taking that step.
by jae on Dec 21, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m bothered that Lacob seems to think that Monta is doing all he can.
I was thinking exactly the same thing when I read it.
Same here.
He’s a problem. Maybe not last night but he’s been a huge reason we’ve sucked the last 2 years.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 1:12 PM PST up reply actions
he’s been a huge reason we’ve sucked the last 2 years.
Wow, that is just way too much over the top considering the many negative factors of the last 2 years….even for the ex “monta da boss” to say.
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 21, 2010 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
Worst +/- for a starter in NBA history last year.
This year, more of last year play than 07-08.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
causality
I still say that the numbers are reflecting the fact that we are looking for too much out of Monta.
He’s a B-lister, you don’’t hand the franchise to a guy like that…and then blame him for not driving you straight to victory
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
At least when Nellie ran Tay' into the ground we all thought it fed the tank.
This year, yea not so much…
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
well...
this is where I cross the line into the Monta “basher” camp. Because I would like for him to play more efficiently, to pass more, and to not drive into 3 guys (even if he does get those layups to go in somehow).
It’s a fine line here, with Monta. We really do need him to play so well, every single night that we end up asking too much out of him. As a fan, I completely understand this.
But as a student of the game, I am still pretty clueless with the calculations that go into things like Wins Produced, PER, etc. But I do know enough to say that Monta’s low efficiency, and now, learning that he had the lowest +/- in NBA history last year…I’m worried
My main response to a lot of these numerical/statistical arguments are not that I have a problem with the values that are being cited (I’m sure they are in fact accurate and real) but that some people tend to make inferences off of these stats to support their arguments; and then defend their conclusion by defending the stats they referenced.
Just because the base values you are using are accurate, does not mean that your interpretation of the reasons behind these numbers are correct
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
if it’s true that he had the worst +/- for a starter in NBA history, do you know who he bested?
Kevin Durant.
"probably get some stitches too! you have a good night! go warriors!" - david lee
interesting article
about this issue
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11459/kevin-durant-eats-plusminus-for-breakfast
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
also, this sounds a whole lot like Monta
It can be ignored in small pieces. But two years of telling the same story … that’s a lot of evidence. Watching a metric ton of Durant video made clear that while he’s amazing at tons of things, he had a miserable time defending the pick-and-roll, and closing out on shooters. Those two things alone could explain why his team allowed so many more points per possession when he was on the floor. He also tended to end up shooting against double and triple teams more than most players.
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 3:47 PM PST up reply actions
sure, his rookie year was not good
but he was a rookie
why are we comparing that to Monta in his, what, 6th year?
and KD is not an example that is going to be replicated all over the place
that sort of development is every fans wet dream
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 4:04 PM PST up reply actions
He had one bad year. Why are we judging Monta completely by one year? He’s playing fine this year. Not a super star or anything but a guy who would get a lot of minutes playing for any team in the league.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
One bad year?
He’s really just had 1 good year.
It's biodigital jazz, man.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 22, 2010 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
He got MIP and the next year played even better. So I would say two good years. His bad year was the year he came back from injury on the most injured team in the league.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
The “most improved” win was what most of those “most improved” are: a jump in scoring average. His ‘MIP’ season was an improvement from his mostly garbage time season, but it wasn’t anything more than an average season in terms of his play. Real average scoring efficiency, sup par rebounding for a guard (very sub par for an off guard), assist numbers that suggested “good passers for an off guard”, turnover numbers far, far too high for his usage.
His third season was the real good one. The efficiency was there, the rebounding got into a reasonable range for an off guard, assists went up, turnovers went down. It was a good season, not quite ‘build around him’ star level, but very good.
This year on average he’s played significantly better than he did last year, well enough that he isn’t dragging the team down like he did a year ago. He isn’t shooting them out of games. He is getting the turnovers more under control, but he’s still turnover prone given his assist rate. He’s regressing with rebounds. He’s never going to be more than adequate defensively against bigger guards (and usually isn’t quite that). He doesn’t provide much beyond scoring, so he has to be very, very efficient at it to be a focal point.
by jae on Dec 23, 2010 9:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
He doesn’t provide much beyond scoring, so he has to be very, very efficient at it to be a focal point.
Do you know how his numbers compare to Iverson’s best years? Montay’s lack of handles seems to doom any plan to copy the old 76er’s mold by building around him.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 23, 2010 9:11 AM PST up reply actions
That’s because Monta played 90%+ of the minutes on a 26 win team. Also, the team happened to be the worst defense in the league.
That’s because Monta played 90%+ of the minutes on a 26 win team.
No, he played 67% of the minutes on a 26 win team. He played 86% of the minutes in the games he played in, games where the Warriors were 19-45. The Warriors had a better winning percentage (7-11 = 38.8%) in those games where he played 0 minutes.
And the worst plus minus reflects a net plus minus. When he was off the court (33% of the time) the Warriors actually outscored their opposition. 1/3rd of all minutes isn’t just garbage time. That’s a substantial, significant sample.
Impressed
What site do you use to look up/compare stats like that?
It is true that our team seemed to flow better without Monta. I just hate to think that the only sunny spot on our season is poison. Especially without Curry, I think if Monta weren’t in, our team would be in deeper trouble.
I get my raw data from several sources, but do most of my computation with a program I wrote myself. I’ve built up a database of play-by-play data for each of the last 5 seasons that’s sortable along more or less any index. I wrote it initially to do my own wins produced computations before someone else posted a site that provided them, but found it useful for so many other computations and splits.
Sadly, I have not loaded up this season’s data so far, so I’m at the mercy of other people’s computations. I just haven’t had the time to program it in to the parser. (The boss took off on vacation today — hence more posting than normal. I hope to get to it over the next week or so.)
out of curiosity, what do you program in?
I’m going to start parsing PBP data soon, and I’m planning on using Ruby.
I program in Python and R, with a a tiny, tiny bit of Java if absolutely necessary. Ruby looks too much like Perl for my tastes, but some people love Perl.
funny
those are exactly the four other languages I was considering. I’ve been using R lately, and really like it.
Python has the advantage of being easy to read. The syntax is closest to something that resembles real language. And the R-python API is pretty good and stable.
Python has the advantage of being easy to read. The syntax is closest to something that resembles real language
Interesting take. Ruby advocates seem to think exactly the opposite.
Also, the 2nd most injured team in league history. Granted, Monta did suck last year, horribly, but he is much better, when he’s not doing things by himself. I like his play this year and have few complaints about it. I think, if anything, the coaching staff or the GM could solve our problems by changing strategy/bringing in new people, while we leave Monta where he is.
Of course, seeing as we like Curry and as Monta and Curry don’t complement each other that well, at some point, we’ll have to trade one of them. Curry fills the role of PG, which is a harder role to fill, so I have to lean toward trading Monta. I like both of them a lot, though (minus last year’s Monta).
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
But now that I think about it, I would be okay with an Iguadala, Monta back court. Iggie is a decent passer, which would help compensate for the shakiness of Monta’s.
It doesn’t hurt to keep one of the league’s best pick pockets, strong enough to prevent PG’s from posting up as your starting PG. Not a terrible idea at all. We could start Curry (because he plays better as a starter), Monta and Iggie, then have Monta sub for Curry, Iggie sub for Monta and D.Wright sub for Iggie.
We’d have to trade a big or two to get Iggie. Maybe a Reggie plus Andris type thing (Ugh… don’t want to trade Andris either).
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Monta, Iggy could work in some sort of ball movement system
But I wouldn’t give up Curry for IGGY. Curry has much more value around the league to everyone INCLUDING us. His upside is higher than Iggy’s.
Yeah, Curry is great in the potential department and has some of the most upside of all PG’s in the league, I think. Curry for Iggy would have been worth it if we were dumping salary as well, perhaps and they threw in a draft pick. We shouldn’t be such homers that we assume Curry will turn out as good as we hope. No guarantees. Iggy, though, is already proven and is a strong defender.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
haha
I LOVE the strength of your conviction here man!
Still,
NEVER trade curry
never?
Curry for Iggy, salary releif (not sure what that would really look like, maybe Charlie Bell?) and draft picks (let’s say a 1st rounder)?
What about for a super star like Dwight?
Umm, hell yeah we take that!
You sir, get the Homer award
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
iggy would do nothing by himself with us
curry is the future. it would be like re-living trading carter away and letting jamison and arenas go all over again.
sorry i just wont have it
Steph + Monta for Prez
by j-spliff415 on Dec 23, 2010 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
Monta is doing all he can.
the issue here though, is that he’s right
We saw Monta at the peak of his game last night. That’s really all we can realistically expect from him. Lots of offense, a couple steals and horrible defense
I think Lacob knows the issue. The biggest problem with Monta is that we have a second-tier talent being treated like he is an all-star.
Would we like Monta to do more? Hells yeah. But he is never going to be able to contribute as much on the defensive end as we would like. The best we could do is build around his weaknesses, and I don’t think anyone around here supports that as a good idea
You don’t dump him, you don’t build around him….he’s just kind of got us in no-man’s land. Hoping that he either figures out how to play defense, or can improve dramatically. I think we are really hoping that another team becomes infatuated with him and offers us a lot…either that, or we strike gold in the lotto, or pillage with our expirings.
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Monta is simply not THE reason" we sucked the last 2 years .
There are severeal reasons why we sucked the last 2 years. How can anyone lay all that on Monta despite his flaws. Just over the top hater words.
#1. Out of this world injuries.
- No defense or rebounding team wide.
- Flaws with many players including Monta, Randolf, Beans, Jackson,Maggette…every one else was injured but Curry
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 21, 2010 3:43 PM PST up reply actions
Let me ask you a question
Regardless of your or my opinion of Monta….
Do you actually expect Lacob to say “I tell you what, I’m gonna get rid of the midget 2 guarD ASAP!” or something. Above all reasons, singling anyone out to be traded would kill trade value.
I think it’s pretty clear he thinks Monta’s doing well now, but he didn’t last year (as evident by his comments). And I think it’s pretty clear by his constant gloating about Boston, he’s willing to trade anyone/anytime.
I am not a Monta worshipper by any means. But what we REALLY need right now are players who will fight game in, game out.
Biedrins does not fight. He is soft. He plays weak defense and weaker offense.
The other issue is our bench. They are all sub-d-leaguers.
The main issue though is our system. We still don’t run anything. Monta drives and others dish for jumpers. We have no game inside 15 feet without Monta, but I definitely think Monta hurts our team play. We want less iso’s more plays.
I still have dreams of watching Nellie keep Monta on the bench in the 4th against the Hawks as Steph and CJ brought the game back. They both played selflessly. I want to see Steph do more pick and roles with Lee. If he can make them work with Turiaf, he should be getting way more assists with Lee.
The other issue is our bench. They are all sub-d-leaguers.
This is a huge problem, especially with all of our injuries. Going into the season without a legitimate backup point guard was a mistake. Going into the season without a big two-guard to change pace to slow down a strong opposing 2/3 has been a problem as well. I fault it not as much because a deeper bench wouldn’t make this team really good, and it’s dangerous to mortgage the future to try to fill bench spots before you have your starters sorted out, but the interim runs the risk of looking really ugly if injuries happen. And they have.
Biedrins doesn’t fight and is soft? He’s one of the league’s best rebounders. He’s also a good defender, provided he’s not defending heavier centers/PF’s, like Z. Randolph, Luis Scola or Pau Gasol. Maybe not good, because you have to consider how often he fouls. If it weren’t for him fouling and having to defend guys that are just too big, I would say he’s a good defender. I would never say soft, though. The guy has pretty good toughness and composure in the paint.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
He is pretty soft
He’s afraid to draw contact because he doesn’t want free throws and he can be out muscled. He is a great rebounder but not cause he’s tough, it’s cause he’s intelligent, quick and hustles around the rim. He has a nose for the ball.
Let me ask you, how many big rebounds he’s come up with in last minutes of a game where every player is trying? I’m not saying that 1 rebound is more valuable than his 12 or so he grabbed during context of a game (it isn’t) but it does show more toiughness.
Eitherway rebounding well doesn’t make you ‘not soft’
Getting out-muscled doesn’t necessarily make you soft either. In his case, it makes you not big enough. Biedrins fights for rebounds at the end of games as well as anyone. Again, though, he’s not that big, so he can get moved. If he were playing with Pau as his PF, for example, Biedrins wouldn’t have to fight off two big men at a time, which has been his experience in his career. With David Lee around, we should see more big rebounds from Biedrins in the future.
As far as being afraid to draw contact, I wouldn’t call that soft either. It’s not good, obviously, but it’s not soft. The guy’s high FG% in the past shows what kind of scorer he can be, should his FT% get to something like 60%. I’ve never correlated bad FT% with being soft, personally. This is fixable with better free throwing.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
by Naticus on Dec 23, 2010 6:32 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
nice!
Getting out-muscled doesn’t necessarily make you soft
Beans is not afraid…
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 11:20 AM PST up reply actions
A coaching change would be a start, but realistically, we’re not looking at a long term solution there mid season either
I agree, a coaching change mid-season is usually to stop the bleeding. The Warriors are depleting the blood banks…
The Warriors are slowly getting healthy and we’re running out of excuses. At some point, you’d think this team will put some confidence inspiring performances together, but the comebacks (that fall short) consists of hitting a bunch of 3’s and incredible individual performances.
The last confidence inspiring game by the team was when they beat the Jazz at home (1st game against them) and it was one of those gritty “ugly” games we weren’t use to (defense and rebounding). We thought this is how we’d win games this year. Turns out we haven’t seen a game that has resembled that performance since.
We were told that the identify of the team would be defined by its defensive philosophy. Keith Smart says “defense travels well.” Apparently, defense took a wrong turn and the Warriors are without an identity, still. Unless you count losing as an identity.
So yeah, let’s all be patient a few more months, years, decades. Let’s let Lacob evaluate this team…give him the benefit of the doubt while he emails the fans. The team still sucks.
Symbolically, the only thing he has done to rid us of Cohan from our nightmares is firing Nellie. And that, in hindsight of course, has turned out to be the wrong move (IMO). If he’s preaching patience, why didn’t he just keep Nellie for the last year of his contract? He made his Nellie firing his big splash move but has since followed-up with nothing…or should I say, the same ol’ sh*t.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 21, 2010 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
You've been listening to CC_ too long on twitter my man hahaha.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
Ha, it kinda sounds like him, huh? Maybe we’re the same person.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 21, 2010 2:07 PM PST up reply actions
Wait
then who am I?
I'll sell this vacant lot and settle down in a place I've only read about in books about Miles Davis.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 21, 2010 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
I’m convinced the Jazz game was won by a healthy Biedrins and Lee fighting with heart in the paint combined largely with Dorell Wright’s strong defensive effort. Between the three, we have pretty good defense in our frontcourt… when Wright actually feels like playing hard.
If Wright becomes consistently active on defense, working up a sweat (and I sometimes notice he’s not sweating when he should be), our defense will be formidable.
For now, Amundson and Udoh can pick up the slack quite a bit for Biedrins, so even without Biedrins, we should still have decent defense.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
hmmmmm
Yeah they were huge but I think Monta and Curry forcing 8 turnovers out of Deron Williams was just as a big a reason.
How often does DWill turn it over 8 times? NO other times this year.
Infact his highest TO production has been 5 a few times.
Good point. I forgot about those forced TO’s. Very good. We needed all of that, considering how horrible our offense was that game.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Unless you count losing as an identity.
Umm…we’re the Warriors. Only we have it on weekends, the clippers have shared custody of that image.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
we’re the Warriors. Only we have it on weekends, the clippers have shared custody of that image.
looks like the kings want in on the action too?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 22, 2010 9:46 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks for this, j-spliff (!). Instant rec. (One formatting nitpick: if you block-quoted or italicized Lacob’s note the diary would read more clearly).
I mostly share your sentiments; and though talk is cheap, I am encouraged that Lacob seems so aware of and sensitive to the growing frustration among Warriors fans. Reading between the lines of his response: I find it semi-interesting that the one major piece of the puzzle that Lacob failed to praise was Keith Smart. Hard to imagine that they’d dump him mid-season, but I’d guess that behind closed doors Lacob and Riley are already quietly putting together a list of coaching candidates. And who knows: behind another closed door, Lacob and Guber may be quietly putting together a list of GM candidates.
In the meantime, if they really need to make a move to appease a cranky and bloodthirsty fanbase, I’d assume it would involve one or two of the expiring contracts. I’d guess Biedrins is next on the list of sacrificial lambs, with Monta a bit farther down the list, and Lee further still. Once you start talking about moving young, productive starters, you assume they’re going to hold out for something pretty good. A lot probably depends on who comes available and when. Whither CP3?…
There will be no extra point!
On the CP3 note
Are there any updates on his status. The whole situation in New Orleans and ownership can’t be good for there prospects of holding him. Still considering they are league controlled, would the league actually have the gall to trade him? If they did I don’t think you can really top an offer of Curry, a pick and expirings…
The NBA wants to sell the Hornets. I can’t see how trading Paul, who is still under their control for a season after this one, does anything but minimize the value. They probably couldn’t get more than Curry, pick and change to make it work back, but I suspect a potential owner would rather be the one to make the decision to try to keep Paul and make him happy or pull the trigger on that sort of deal (which will be there in the future too) rather than invest in a team that’s been gutted.
a cranky and bloodthirsty fanbase
nice.
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 21, 2010 1:52 PM PST up reply actions
nice response
Maybe it is because I am about Lacob’s age, and I can name nearly every Warrior since 1975, but I completely understand about needing patience. If it were simply will that created a Championship team, we’d have half a dozen champions every year. Give the guy a chance. Yeah, it’s getting old but, please, no rushed moves. At his level, it’s a chess game. If you go for the 3 move Fool’s Mate every time, you’ll only ever beat the idiots. Plan for three years from now and let the game come to you.
Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right.
I really like Lacob's passion
But he is right. It takes time, and that’s the most frustrating part of being a Warriors fan. We’ve given the team AMPLE time. But we haven’t give it to Lacob or Guber….
This roster is flawed, short of a Boston Celtics-type miracle it’s highly unlikely this team can be turned around in 1 summer
by tafkasam on Dec 21, 2010 9:39 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
All I want is a Pau sized gift for xmas.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Wow, rec'd!
Man, I am loving this ownership group.
Even as fans clamor for immedeate response, the new ownership group is keeping cool. And this makes me so happy.
I am one of the few (I think) who is trying to keep a level head during these tough times. I understand that this is going to take at least a couple of years. And I agree. We must be willing to hold out for the best possible deal; not make “treading water” moves.
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
Hey Spliff?
What was the timing here?
Did Lacob reply in the middle of the night?
Since I assume this email was written after the game last night, did he write you a 2am email?
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
Good point
I so not see Joe Lacob using the word Darn! and using !!!!!! after a sentence. Think I would be convinced if the email signture and time/date stamp was also copy cut and pasted. But if Jordan is looking to be the GSOM resident Joe lacob, he gets the job.
by OmnipotentOne on Dec 21, 2010 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
well i'm on the east coast now
but he got back to me at 1140 last night west coast time
Steph + Monta for prez and vp
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 10:11 AM PST up reply actions
It's the Salary Cap Stupid!
No matter how well intentioned an ownership group is, the salary cap is what prevents a bad team from becoming good.
It forces teams to take on bad players for expiring contracts – which, if you look at the W’s 12 man roster, 1/3 of it is dedicated to players they’d cut in a heartbeat (Bell, Gadz, Vlad, BWright) to free up roster space so they could add productive players. How can a team have depth carrying 1/3 of it’s roster as basically dead weight.
A mediocre teams usually fills up it’s cap trying to prove they’re the real deal by overpaying journeyman talent (read: Corey Maggette) then not performing well enough to attract FA’s to come here for MLE because there’s no cap room to pay full freight.
I think the league should ditch the Salary Cap. Owners should be responsible…or Heck, don’t be responsible – buy the best team. Free of the cap, any team has the opportunity to get better. Sure smaller markets will be at a disadvantage, but so what, if the owner can’t afford to play with the big boys, he shouldn’t be owning a team.
the big mistake
Was getting rid of the hall of fame coach before finding an experienced replacement, that and the Lin signing show lack of judgment and lack of patience.
Now expecting Montay to carry the team is the current problem, small 2 guards are seldom the face of a winning team. If we plan to keep Binky we need to move Montay for a bigger player, watching him put up 40 points in a loss is not entertaining.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 21, 2010 10:54 AM PST reply actions
thank you for writing the email and posting the response
While reading it, I couldn’t help think what Chris Cohan’s response (probably a lack of response) would have been to a letter to him.
[site decorum]
He would assume it's a death threat, or maybe anthrax depending on weight of sent envelope.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
It's the Salary Cap Stupid!
Amen, What this shows you is that Lacob will take the time to be responsive to his fanbase, who have little idea of the mechanics of how to improve the team, and in their frustration are just emotionally pleading to him to just act. And he shows he’s accessible and responds by showing his understanding and urging patience..
The Warriors start since your takeover has been nothing short of horrendous, and I must tell you already that frustration and dissatisfaction has already grown with the new face of change. Just to be clear, in no way do I suggest that the terrible play it is the new ownership’s fault – that is impossible. But I must urge that you take action NOW in order to prove to the Warriors community that you plan on coming through on your promises. Transactoins, cuts, whatever it may be, you must prove to the fanbase through action that your serious about the future of this team
Or the fanbase will do what? If there was ever a wholesale mutiny among ths fanbase it would have happened long ago under Nelly and Cohan. Face it, you’re a Warrior fan for life. I think Lacob knows that.
I know Warrior fans are frustrated. I am frustrated. But, we have owned this team for a month!!! .
I also feel your frustration Spliff. I’m sorry if you thought this team was a playoff team, but I think Lacob knows it’s not, and I do think he’ll do whatever he thinks is necessary and may even act boldly to make this a playoff franchise. That’s just my hunch, but you’ve been waiting all thesde years, and the guy has been the owner for one whole month.
Jae: I’ll give my B+ advice free, but I’m available for consulting, contract work or regular employment if they’re looking for the A-game.
.
Heh Heh, If that’s as serious solicitation, and you were ever granted a free trial, I say you would be well advised to give it your A-shot.
by War Years Legacy on Dec 21, 2010 11:03 AM PST reply actions
My email address is at the bottom of the page. IF they’re reading and want a conversation, I’ll certainly take the call.
As long as GSOM gets "anonymous" insider scoops!
We promise we won’t abuse this treat, JAE. =)
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
i wasn't suggestijng mutiny lol
Only that lacob + guber’s biggest task as GS owners is restore honest and not misguided faith with the fans. Simply a suggestion of how to stay out of the Cohen limelight. Our fanbase is one of the most frustrated in the league, and the quicker the new owners react to the warrior’s recent shortcomings, the more faith we will have in them. The biggest obstacle for Lacob + Guber is too not be compared to Cohen in ANY way
Steph + Monta for prez and vp
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 11:36 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Cohen
It’s Cohan. No e. This is important so as not to be disparaging to completely innocent Cohens who do not deserve to be lumped in with the disgraced former owner.
oops
That’s was a doozy. I’m jewish and shouldn’t have made that mistake. Won’t happen again I’m sure of it hahahahahhah
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 2:42 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Just take out the n, and add two L's.
And it’s Cohell.
Cohan + Rowell = Cohell.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
The first Smart move to make
Mr. Lacob
I’m not surprised to see what Udoh did last night. I saw him do that all last year for Baylor. Expect more, seriously. I want to talk about Smart, who is not his namesake. I understand he wants bring Udoh along slowly, but the situation should dictate that pace. Udoh was slammin put backs, rebounding, blocking shots, and what hasn’t been talked about yet is the effective screens he was setting (ask Monta). If I’m the coach I’m excited. Excited and Smart enough to not take him out of the game with 4 minutes left. As soon as Udoh left the game the Rockets went up by 7 in less than a minute. Any amateur high school to AAU coach could see Udoh had enough adrenalin alone to carry him thru the final 4 minutes. It wouldn’t be so bad if they were playing the Lakers because a lost is inevitable. But this game was winnable and Smart made them lose, period. If you are who they say you are Mr. Lacob then you are up early this morning workin the phones. Warrior fans sure hope so because that move by Smart was Dumb
am i the only one that is happy about pulling him out?
if i felt this year was a legit year to go after a title or make a serious playoff push then by ALL MEANS i would have kept him in but, truth is WE SUCK right now (compared to the dallases and the san antonios and the los angeleses) and need to pick up a good draft pick come next draft. we have to find other ways to measure victory right now other than the WIN column
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Dec 21, 2010 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
there
is no other way to measure victory. moral victories are NOT good enough anymore. not even close. and i am disheartened that lacob used the injury excuse. give me a break
by hoopscorer23 on Dec 21, 2010 4:06 PM PST up reply actions
seeing that epke udoh is a decent player to me is a victory.. and bodes well for a couple years from now when we CAN be legit contenders
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Dec 21, 2010 5:53 PM PST up reply actions
udoh has played 4 games
you cant possibly evaluate anyone after 4 games.
by hoopscorer23 on Dec 21, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
And he's played significant minutes in even fewer
It's biodigital jazz, man.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 21, 2010 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
Incredibly ironic...
…I actually sent Mr. Lacob an email last night as well, albeit not nearly as in depth or long as yours. Mine essentially said that I was starting to get restless as I am assuming the rest of the fanbase was, and while I understand things take time, it was hard to sit through all of these losses. It was the second time I’ve emailed him, and about an hour later I got a response:
Eric,
I am dying inside too. This is terrible. I promise we will do whatever we can as soon as we can to get better.
Joe
Really impressive that he has responded not once but twice to emails that I’ve sent him out of the blue. I sent a response thanking him for being sincere and taking the time out of his busy day to respond.
Regardless of what’s happening right now on the court, it’s impossible to neglect the fact that this guy is trying and has a true passion for the game and the team, and that’s one of the most reassuring things I’ve seen as a Warriors fan in a long time. An owner that actually cares about our team.
+1 for Mr. Lacob in my book, and I’m glad to see he does the same with not just 1 fan, but several!
by FromtheBaytotheBayState on Dec 21, 2010 1:17 PM PST reply actions
Or he has an incredibly dilligent/dedicated assistant
Which in all honestly, is the most likely answer
whatever
he still is tasking somebody with responding to our mostly inane emails…shows he cares
haha, as I types that I lol’d…the Cohan era has set the bar so, so low
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
i emailed him a thank you note well
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 2:45 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
i emailed him a thank you note well
I can’t even tell you how legit the feeling was to see an email from joe lacob in my college inbox
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 2:46 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Picked up on TrueHoop just now
sickness.
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/23014/new-deal-a-warriors-owner-who-e-mails-back
by diggitydawg510 on Dec 21, 2010 1:36 PM PST reply actions 4 recs
so cool
rec’d
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
Woah
ESPN mentioned me!!!!!!!! not for athletic reasons tho…. hahaha
still so happy nonetheless
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
I THINK its great he replied to you and all but,
i disagreee that any move needs to be made NOW. like he said u cant just throw darts at the wall randomly or whatever.. we have to make smart moves that make sense. making a move JUST to make a move and appease us crazy fans will only piss us off more lol. the ONLY THING i would have him do is force kieth smart to NOT play our starters for crazy long minutes or give much playing time to scrubs who wont be on our team for very long (probably 5 of those guys too) and to also give our second unit some solid playing time so that they can develope some cohesion!
all i meant was
that he bought a team with the best fans in the nba, yet the most deprived. making moves as soon as possible is something that would distinguish them from chris cohan…. wouldn’t it?
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
well ya it would but they would have to be non bogus moves lol.
i was just referring to the “NOW” part of ur email to him… as for me im i think one of the few that is totally content with losing right now in fact i prefer it… for this year… coz i just dont think we stand a chance..
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Dec 21, 2010 5:56 PM PST up reply actions
Making [good] moves as soon as possible is something that would distinguish them from chris cohan….
I fixed it for you.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
thanks
for emailing him and posting. one thing though. the playoff run was 2006-2007. probably should have gotten that right
Jordan.
You were mentioned on the D-Bruce show today when he interviewed Joe Lacob .
Good job man.
Go warriors still.
oyy yo yoy!
ROMESdavidWOOD37 has taken over the Ongline. He's cool.
by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Dec 21, 2010 4:01 PM PST reply actions
what did they say about it?
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 4:03 PM PST up reply actions
just got hear that
i never expected this to go that far. real happy right now
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
and also
while i dont reccomend “throwing darts” as lacob put it. watching this team play out the rest of the season without making any moves at all, hoping to spend the 8 million in free agency when NO ONE really wants to come here is absolutely ridiculous
while we're poking holes in the "plan"
its pretty fair, I think, to point out that this team looks like it needs more than $8mil worth of upgrades
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 4:46 PM PST up reply actions
I for one
Hope they do not give into the fan pressure and make moves for the sake of making moves.
Make the right move.
The Golden State Warriors, we make Free Throws look difficult!
I for one Hope they do not give into the fan pressure and make moves for the sake of making moves.
haha, yeah listening to some random fanboys doesn’t speak well of our new leader.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 21, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions
Well
Seeing how this game is going(down 10 with 1:06 to go in the 3rd), he should be getting some more emails because this game is horrid.
Wow Lou just fouled out in 3rd quarter!
Hope you tuned back or continued to watch after this comment.
LGW stiil.
ROMESdavidWOOD37 has taken over the Ongline. He's cool.
by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Dec 21, 2010 11:16 PM PST up reply actions
Luckily
I watched the whole game as I always do! Wow what a comeback!
Someone draft another email for Lacob and Co. PLEASE
This game reminds me of the Bimbo Coles, Felton Spencer era…. Well Mullin was still in the team back then.
Loving this...
I have been following the NBA for 20 years now and have been a fan of a few teams to date. I’ve heard about how Warriors fans are hardcore, I was skeptical at first, but now I’m a believer. Having been a Pacer fan for a long time (Primarily because I was a Miller/Mullin/Bird fan) I consider myself pretty loyal, but you guys are Intense and I’m loving it… Having been disillusioned by the post reggie pacers I was in the hunt for a NBA team to route for, coming from the philippines it’s not easy to pick, but my heart leaned towards the warriors. I can see I’ve made the right choice and I’m glad to be a warrior fan. Merry Christmas everyone!
Juanito11, a new believer…
so glad
we won the awfulness that was that game. a home game against the kings and we barely make it to overtime. hopefully lacob doesnt see this win as something to build off of. although im sure fitz thinks so. when two bad teams go head to head someone ahs to win.
lol, you were mentioned on espn top 10 plays
‘hear about the fan that emailed the new gsw owner…’ at the #3 play (monta behind the back 360 layup)
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Dec 21, 2010 11:55 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
This got mentioned on sportscenter during the top 10 tonight too.
This isn’t the first time this has happened here either. When I first saw this thread I thought it was a bump from the old one with the kid here (forgot his name) who wrote an email pleading to not trade Curry for Melo. This is the kind of stuff this team needs right now, and maybe this will up our profile just enough for Stern to rig a draft in our favor for once, instead of screwing us throughout history. Just sayin…..
Cut.
by Butterknuckles on Dec 21, 2010 11:58 PM PST reply actions
two points for Lacob
he’s adept at public relations and maintaining his image as ‘a change you can believe in’ (it’s a bit fatiguing though to have both owner and coach talk like politicians pressing for votes) ; he hasn’t made a major blunder yet. With this coup he snagged some free advertising with national exposure.
Did the ‘should have been a win’ Hou game really cause that much distress? Is Hou so poorly coached, so lacking in talent or in vets who know how to win, that the home team missing two of its critical starting players ‘should’ win ? The oaktown gang lacks a single above average defender, can’t shoot free throws, and lacks consistency scoring either inside or from the perimeter — fine to expect them to beat teams like Sac, but only by a string of the other team’s blunders could they even manage that.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
To be fair
a) 40% of our starting line up, and potentially our best player, were missing. We don’t have depth to make up for that. I mean when Monta goes 15-20, 44 points, 7 assists, 3 TOs and we lose, it says it all….
b) Lacob has been owner a little over a month. Aside from Curry he doesn’t have a single asset that could EASILY net a difference maker in a trade. (Curry’s talent + potential + contract is easily most attractivE). Let’s give it TIME….
Last thing I want is guns blazing shortsided trade we regret in 6 months..
he hasn’t made a major blunder yet. With this coup he snagged some free advertising with national exposure.
Depends on your definition of major I guess? I’d say he’s made 4 right off the top of my head. first was outbidding Ellison, if ellison didn’t want to go higher he probably knew something lacob didn’t. 2nd was firing a hall of fame coach without a better replacement lined up. 3rd was signing lin then having to play without an experienced backup when the to be expected injuries showed up.and 4th is making it look like he wastes time reading email from random fans for ideas.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 22, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
Ellison said he placed a higher bid
but acc. to the auctioneer it came in after the deadline. Perhaps just face-saving on Ellison’s part, but the evidence is inconclusive whether Ellison would have gone higher on the price.
For publicity and politics, many would say firing Nelson and signing Lin had positive outcomes. If the roster didn’t have serious shortcomings that had little to do with the 15th spot, using that spot to please the owner and boost marketing should not be a significant handicap. Lacob probably received more approval than disapproval from the wider,casual fan base for firing Nelson, and for pretending to read and seriously respond to fan e-mail. His supporters can always say there was no way to tell how poorly Smart would do if he wasn’t given the opportunity, and that Lacob wanted/needed to show a break from the past (which also reflected his conventional thinking in what he expects from his head coach).
In the short term, Lacob can continue to bluster and bluff as the on-court product goes into entropic decline, and no one can deny he is far more adept than his predecessor at maintaining a polished, earnest image. He’s protected by his rookie status and the same fan base that supported the previous regime through variations of failure other than Nelson’s tenures. If only Ellison would bring the C.Paul franchise to S.Jose and really threatened that hold on the fan base, we might see if Lacob really has the right stuff.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
Nellie’s departure was somewhat strange. Officially, he resigned, though it seems clear that he was going to be moved out of the way for the new ownership. By forcing the issue before Lacob got in, he managed to maximize the payoff he received for not coaching. He knew he could push back against Cohan/Rowell and wasn’t going to be pressed by Riley in a power struggle, so he got out before this situation changed. Nellie had nothing to gain by coming back.
Even if Smart is a placeholder (and I very much hope he is and a real search for a real coach happens in the off-season) it’s probably better for Lacob to have Smart in this year than Nellie. If Nellie clashed with Lacob, if Nellie didn’t like the way things were going, he’d say exactly what he thought at exactly that moment (regardless of whether he felt it later). I suspect he could poison things quickly for the new regime and make it more of an uphill battle, knowing that he could ride off into the sunset any time, not at all worried about his next job. He had nothing to lose by being a troublemaker.
Smart doesn’t have that clout. Smart’s coaching for another job and has nothing to gain by being a troublemaker. Once he’s out the door, he’s still going to look for other coaching jobs, and getting a reputation as a management killer won’t help that, whether the next job be continuing on here, hoping for another head coaching gig down the line, or carrying a clipboard for another NBA head coach.
Or
Nellie could have had a very successful year with this new talent.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 23, 2010 10:40 AM PST up reply actions
Nellie could have had a very successful year with this new talent.
He could have, but he wasn’t a long-term solution. He’d said that this was going to be his last year, and while what Nellie says and what he does or believes are often two entirely different things, it was a good bet that he’d be on his way out. My perception from last season was that he was tired of coaching, that he phoned it in for much of the year. And while he has done that in the past to get ready for a rebuild, he wasn’t going to be part of a rebuilding process. Given that he could do a bunch of damage (and not be around to sort it out) preventing him from being in a place to make a transition more difficult seems like a reasonable choice.
Yep, can’t argue there given his history. However, I tend to disagree on him phoning it in last year. I thought given the circumstances, he got a lot out of what he had to work with. Perhaps Nellie works “better” under those precarious circumstances (some would argue he’s the creator of those situations), enabling him to look better by finding moral victories on top of actual losses.
But, I find it hard to believe that he wouldn’t have been motivated with the newly structured team, even if Riley admittedly constructed the team the anti-Nellie way, as a way to end a career with a bang.
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 23, 2010 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
It's better to build a team anti nellie
and have him coach it because it keeps him from going to small ball but allows us to have his creativity + improve what we have.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 23, 2010 6:04 PM PST up reply actions
SACRAMENTO – Joe Lacob didn’t watch the Warriors’ 121-112 loss to Houston live Monday – the first game he has missed since officially taking over the franchise Nov. 12.
He instead attended his son’s high school game, but Lacob clearly wasn’t off the clock. He watched a tape of the game and penned a telling e-mail to a fan named Jordan.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/12/21/SP6S1GTVV8.DTL#ixzz18qHPZoCi
i have to say
these are some of the more smarter comments than i’ve seen in the past on other fanposts. thanks for everyones input. i’ll definitely keep posting
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
Perhaps you can email Lacob again
and ask him if it’s his idea to run the half court offense, or if it’s Smart’s idea. My suspicions is that it is Lacob’s idea.
by IQofaWarrior on Dec 22, 2010 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
Who knows, but even Bob Fitzgerald is saying we don’t run the pick-n-roll enough. For once, I AGREE!
by Doctor Kajita on Dec 22, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah
It’s interesting, because Keith Smart mentioned something about improving the pick and roll game in a recent post game interview (or practice interview). So that tells me that at least he’s not completely oblivious to the concept.
by IQofaWarrior on Dec 22, 2010 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, well...
he talks about defense a lot too.
I am really hopeful that the team can make progress on both of these issues. Because I do think that if we can’t, then it is apropriate to throw the blame for it at the coach…our guys should be excellent at the P-n-R, but it’s just not happening so far this year
Defense, you must give more time to. Smart talked about it last night in his post game interview (in reference to David lee in particular). You can’t reasonably exepct guys to go from little (or zero) defense, into a stopping force overnight. I just want to see some measurable improvement on this front
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 22, 2010 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
This is all true. Without any data to back this up, my recollection is that there’s been very little R’ing in our PnR; whether it’s because the bigs (namely Lee) are running pick-n-pops by design, by necessity due to the opposing big staying home, or by necessity due to poor floor spacing, I don’t know.
Is the PnR being run primarily on the strong side? Does Synergy get into this? Why didn’t God grace me with photographic memory? Or would it be videographic? OK I’m done.
Formerly ffgolden. Follow me
Do you have a SS of this?
"I tell him straight, 'If you're going to lead, you have to be the first to practice. You have to come in, get your work down and be prepared for practice,' " assistant coach Keith Smart said. "He needs to figure out why he is having stomach problems and he's got to watch how LeBron (James), Kobe (Bryant) and D-Wade (Dwyane Wade) work. He needs to mimic that if he wants his teammates to speak volumes about him." -Keith Smart on Motna Ellis
ah
yes i have the email saved and i can post a screen shot i guess if you all want
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
You should email
him again and ask him to add Kevin Prichard to the front office. I’m sure it wouldn’t hurt. He says he wants alot of good minds to come together to make decisions. Why not add Kevin to GSW to work with him and Riley
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Biggest GSW fan in NY!
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Warriors the best team in 2K11!!!
..............SC30..............
i think that if you email lacob
coming up with suggestions on how to make the team better wouldnt warrant a response. i think the only reason he responded was for that reason exactly
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
Your probably right
but adding Prichard would be a smart decision. I bet he could make great trades and help Joe turn the Warriors around
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Biggest GSW fan in NY!
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Warriors the best team in 2K11!!!
..............SC30..............
coming up with suggestions on how to make the team better wouldnt warrant a response
haha, he’ll only answer pointless stuff you say? So who would want to email him under that scenario?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Dec 22, 2010 9:50 PM PST up reply actions
well because
as much fun as it is to all think we have the answer to how to make this team better, we don’t. we have no idea what it is truly like to run the team from upstairs and how to get it done, and I’m certain that Lacob wouldn’t even read past the first sentence if all his fan emails were trade ideas
Steph + Monta for Prez
this is the second or third Lacob email response we've seen
And in each one, he (or his representative) does a pretty good of responding to the points raised in the initial email
I think the last one was something about not trading Steph for Melo or something…so maybe they just have a couple of templates sitting around
but whatever the reason, the responses definately indicate that the original email was read
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
That's pretty awesome for Lacob to do that
I don’t think any other owner would take the time to write up a thoughtful response to a fan. This gives me more hope that he’ll make the right moves in order to get this team going in a winning direction.
What the hell he wrote back?
Since when do people who earn multi million dollars have time to e-mail us LOW LITTLE people? WOW.
rec'd
lacob should take notes from Boss Baer and the Giants….hopefully the dubz will win someday
Trade Sabean/jk...Fire the dorks...
What is his email?
I want to send him one.
I want to ask him to have the Warriors organization file an official complaint to the league about the ridiculous lack of respect Monta gets from the referees. It wouldn’t be hard to put together a very convincing compilation of footage from this season.
I want to ask him to have the Warriors organization file an official complaint to the league about the ridiculous lack of respect Monta gets from the referees.
haha, while you’re at it why don’t you whine about your brother always getting the bigger half of the cookie?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 1, 2011 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
For Christmas he got both halfs.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Jan 4, 2011 7:28 AM PST up reply actions
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