Caron Butler?(*UPDATED*)
So for the last month or so, we've seen Dorell Wright cool off from his "fair" start. Starting from taking too many forced shots, to pump faking to make his shot tougher than it would be.
Wright is not used to playing such heavy minutes, he would be a much more quality player coming off the bench with Reggie Williams.
Trade Proposal: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=26kd6ea
Warriors get: Caron Butler
Mavericks get: Danny Granger and Brandan Wright
Pacers get: Shawn Marion, Charlie Bell, and Rodney Carney
Why the Warriors do it:
Warriors get a quality big small forward who is an upgrade over a struggling D.Wright
Why Mavericks do it:
With their great depth, adding Granger and B.Wright(ahem) would be icing on the cake.
Why Pacers do it:
Pacers get a Defense-first small forward. He could be resurrected with Indiana.
Warriors starting lineup:
Curry
Ellis
Butler
Lee
Biedrins
Warriors second unit
Lin
Williams
Wright
Udoh
Amundson
So,
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Aren't the Pacers trying to help us win more games?
Oh, right… They’re trying to help THEMSELVES win more games. I always forget that…
by freerandolph on Dec 21, 2010 4:05 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
lol
i usually hate sarcasm on the internet, but i have to give it up to you on that
Exactly.
Pacers give up their best player for two scrubs ? Gadz is an ok backup i guess, BWright is a bust, plain and simple. Decent offensive game, but nothing else to offer. Of course I would like Caron Butler on the Warriors though
by Pearlsofwisdom on Dec 21, 2010 10:54 AM PST reply actions
Exactly+1
They are not that stupid in Indiana.
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 21, 2010 2:21 PM PST up reply actions
They've done worst: See 2007
We got Jax they took on two white guys.
by diggitydawg510 on Dec 21, 2010 10:57 AM PST reply actions
those two white guys are better than SJ
Dunleavy, in particular, has made a nice little career for himself and a comeback from injury. There’s a reason he’s still playing for Indiana. His defense is underrated and he’s an efficient scorer. Look at his opponent FG% and PER from 82games.com.
In fact, as a shooting guard, I might like him to replace Monta.
I’d take Dunleavy right now but do ever think the fanboys would ever take Dunleavy over Monta? That’d be near impossible for the team to justify to the fan base even if it makes sense.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
And is a good passer + rebounder
and apparently defender right now, which is all things we need.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
maybe you guys can make a fan post for you two
and post your wildest dreams about trading our best player there.
by HerFavColor on Dec 21, 2010 1:53 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
he doesn't play defense of course!
trade Lee too because he doesn’t defense either!
by Monta THE Boss on Dec 21, 2010 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
who's Curry?
I was talking about our best player
Stephen Curry
our best player.
I'll sell this vacant lot and settle down in a place I've only read about in books about Miles Davis.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 21, 2010 7:08 PM PST up reply actions
Plus 1.
I don’t care who they think is our best player, but suggesting that Dunleavy is a better player than Monta goes too far. I guess they haven’t realized that Brandon Rush started at SG when they played the Lakers FOR HIS DEFENSE. Whenever the Pacers play a team with a good wing scorer, O’ Brien prefers Rush. Dunleavy starts when O’Brien already feels like he has defense covered. Rush started against Miami (Wade), LAC (Gordon), the Lakers (Kobe) both times, Boston (spent time defending both Allen and Pierce), and Phoenix (JR). Not sure why he started against the Jazz. The SGs Dunleavy faces as a starter? Afflalo, Belinelli, Anthony Parker, Bogans, Mo Evans. I’d expect him to have a low opponents FG% when he gets to skip out on defending the best players at his position. And offensively, he’s okay at everything. We already know that because he’s an ex-warrior. He’s also an ex-Warrior who as soon as he left we became a better-than-.500 team. Basically he’s average in just about every sense. Not worth giving up a guy like Monta who can be great any given night and even when he isn’t is still better than Dunleavy.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
Dunleavy is #3 on that team in minutes ...
… so talking about him as a non-starter is sort of dumb.
It must be said that MDj does a lot of things better than Monta.
I think your implication that you know who Dunleavy is based on his time with the Warriors – that somehow he’s the same player – are pretty foolish. As a Warrior, Dunleavy had only one season of average efficiency scoring. Now he’s a very efficient scorer. He turns the ball over less.
He scores less, too, of course, but there’s more to the game that volume scoring. Aside from scoring volume, though, let me ask you: what makes you think Monta is a better player?
It’s true that Monta can be great. The problem with a player like Monta is that, while he can be great, since he’s ultimately an average player – if that – the nights when he’s not great end up being pretty bad.
We just don't agree that Monta is an average player, then.
As far as Dunleavy, I’ve seen the Pacers play a little this season, and he doesn’t really have anything new added to his offensive game. It’s still very similar. He’s a little smarter player, but that comes with knowing your not a top offensive option when you’re on the court. What he has improved is his rebounding (only 5.4 but its been in lesser minutes for a team that rebounds pretty well), and his defense. However, they haven’t been huge improvements. As far as the minutes, he’s about even with Rush despite Rush not even playing in the team’s first five games. And my point in not being the starter was not he didn’t play enough minutes. My point was he doesn’t defend the top shooting guards very much, because his minutes as a starter are more than 8 minutes better.
I guess I’m just surprised how low some people’s opinions of Monta are. He’s a very good player. Not elite, not top 10. However, to rank him below a player like Dunleavy goes too far in my opinion. The nights that Monta “plays bad,” he really isn’t as awful as you seem to think. He’s had 3 games where he shot under 33% from the field, and just two others under 40%. Kevin Durant? 2 under 33.3 and 10 under 40%. It goes the same for a lot of players. Everybody knows that good players on good teams get calls. Durant gets calls, Kobe gets calls, LeBron, Wade, etc. Monta doesn’t always get them. That’s not to say that is the ONLY difference between his FTs drawn and the the other volume scorers (because Kevin Martin does not always get calls, he is however very good at making it look like he was fouled). Monta has flaws, but his scoring isn’t one of them. Defensively he needs to improve with form and positioning. He needs to look to pass more and make better passes when he does. But he is not terribly bad in bad nights. An average “bad night” for Monta this season has been about 42% shooting with 4 assists and 5 turnovers, also probably about 2 steals. Those types of nights happen all the time for other stars. But we’re not going to agree.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
Well, hang on a second ...
I actually never said that I thought Dunleavy was better than Monta, I merely pointed out that he does a lot of things better than Monta, whereas it appears that Monta does only one thing better than MDJ (well, two, maybe, if you could play a ridiculous number of minutes, which counts for something).
I think it’s telling that I asked you for the argument why Monta was better and you came up with, well, nothing. That Dunleavy isn’t a great defender. Sure … but neither is Monta.
He’s had 3 games where he shot under 33% from the field, and just two others under 40%.
If you’re going to compare Durant and Monta, you have to include their ability to score from the line. Quite simply: Durant can help you when his FG% is low. Monta can’t. That makes any comparison based on FG% somewhat suspect. (Although your cut-points are arbitrary – why 33% and 40%?
That makes him a substantially worse scorer than Durant. And then, of course, Durant does a whole lot of other stuff MUCH better.
An average "bad night" for Monta this season has been about 42% shooting with 4 assists and 5 turnovers, also probably about 2 steals. Those types of nights happen all the time for other stars.
Two points:
First: I don’t think you realize how hard it is to win when a ball-dominating player performs that badly. You want to brush off those numbers like they’re nothing, but they’re not. Given the number of missed shots in that “42%” he’s hurting the team, a lot, that night.
Second, Monta’s statistics are worse than the other “stars” so maybe his average “off night” isn’t “that” bad, but it’s worse than theirs.
this
to me, is the most interesting anti-Monta argument:
I don’t think you realize how hard it is to win when a ball-dominating player performs that badly. You want to brush off those numbers like they’re nothing, but they’re not. Given the number of missed shots in that "42%" he’s hurting the team, a lot, that night.
Is there like a points-per-shot-per-game stat?
Something that shows the weight of the TS%?
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
You mean something like:
(TS%-avgTS%)*points?
Could you explain what you’re getting at, here? Maybe I can help you come upw ith the stat you need.
I think it's pretty obvious why Monta is better.
He can take over and be the biggest part of a win on any given night. Can Dunleavy do that? Point is, Monta is a MUCH better scorer than Dunleavy. You know who Dunleavy reminds me of this season? Luke Walton the one year he was a full-time starter for the Lakers. Solid at everything, really good at nothing. He’s a good off-ball ball handler, but you can’t ask him to make plays for your team. He shoots the ball pretty well, but he can’t make too many difficult shots or take somebody off the dribble. He’s not an impact defensive player either. The first two are things Monta does on a nightly basis, whether he’s playing well or not. As much as he needs to work on his ball control and passing, he can still make plays to get his teammates easy points. He can also knock down difficult jumpers, whether he should have taken them in the first place or not. He can drive to the lane to get his own points. His defense isn’t good either, but he does make up for that a little (still not enough) with the steals he produces. Monta’s impact on any game is much larger than Dunleavy’s because he is a play-maker and Mike is not. That’s all the difference you need to know that Ellis is the better player, especially since Dunleavy isn’t really good at any one thing.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
As for the cut-off points...
they are relatively solid round off numbers. Under 40 is typically not good, and under 33 is typically really bad. The fact that they’re very easy to achieve off of any shot total helps too. They seemed as good as any number could be.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
Monta's worst games have come against good teams/on the road.
That’s normal. It’s not as if he’s been randomly terrible against bad or average teams in winnable games. If that were the case I’d be really worried. However, a lot of them have been early blowouts/biggish leads in which Monta was putting it upon himself to carry the team back (even though it wasn’t working). He’s also had to play without Curry or Lee in half the games, and neither has really been 100% even when they are playing. He’s been good in all of our wins, and the best player in 8 of them. His bad games obviously have not outweighed his positive impact at all. He isn’t as good as the best players in the league, but to knock him for bad games when every player in the league has them is unfair, and that was my point with the Durant, Kobe, etc comparison. As far as 42% hurting the team because he dominates the ball, that’s not Monta’s fault. 42% has been a below average night for him this season, and that’s when you need other players there to pick up the slack. He hasn’t had that with Curry and Lee injured. Don’t blame him for having to carry the load. Who would you rather have the ball in the games he’s been below his average? Reggie? Wright? Lee isn’t exactly the player he’s been in New York, and Curry has been hobbled in a good number of the games he’s played in. When we get healthy, he won’t have the ball as much. So, of course he has bad nights, but they haven’t been happening constantly, which is a good sign when you’re carrying the load for a bad team. You’ve got to give him a break there, if not anywhere else.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
Couple of points:
First, yes, Monta can go on a crazy run and score a bunch of points. That would mean more to me if he didn’t also shoot us out of a bunch of games. Heck, sometimes it’s the same game: we get in a hole (like against Sacramento) in large part because of Monta missing a ton of buckets on shots he sholdn’t even take.
I don’t see why the ability to score a bunch to take over a game outweight the tendency to shoot your team out of games.
As for your worst-games crack, I disagree. When he plays bad, he plays exactly like he played last year, and he did that against all sorts of teams, at home on the road.
Furthermore, I think it’s wrong to say that Dunleavy can’t explode and take over a game – see games against Pheonix and Orlando last year.
Six 20 point games...
over his last full season isn’t really all that much. Dorell Wright has got 5 in just over a quarter of a season with the Warriors. Decent players on bad teams (yes, even at about .500, the Pacers are not a good team) can score a lot of points. But Monta does it a lot more often than most, and this season it’s not as if he’s had a bad game every other game. You’re being too harsh for the bad games he has had, and kind of ignoring that he’s been without the two guys who should be making his job easier (or at least without them completely healthy).
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
He’s also playing nearly 40 a game. His career MPG is 21.8 MPG, and last year he got 20.8 MPG. His minutes increased by like 90%- you’d expect him to get a lot more points. It’s not just a matter of “decent player on a bad team,” but more of a decent player getting big minutes somewhere.
It's biodigital jazz, man.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 25, 2010 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
He averages 8 more minutes per game this season.
Dunleavy gets 31. It’s not like Dunleavy (if he is the scorer that some are claiming him to be) doesn’t get enough minutes to get 20 points every few games. The argument here isn’t Wright or Dunleavy. I don’t really know who I’d want between the two of them. It’s between Monta and Dunleavy. He’s not a guy that can take over a game regularly at all (pretty much once a month the last year), which was the argument Rohaldhino presented. His ability to take over a game is much more equal to Wright’s than Monta’s.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
I wasn't even talking about Dunleavy
just that Dorell almost doubled his minutes. His increase in production is very close to what you would have expected based on his per minute production from last year.
Per 40 PPG/REB/AST/STL/BLK/TO/PF
09/10- 13.6/6.3/2.4/1.8/0.9/1.4/2.5
10/11- 15/6.1/3.3/1.3/0.9/1.9/2.3
His FGA/40 have also increased from 11.2 to 14.3, showing that he has had a pretty serious drop in efficiency. His stats haven’t changed that much, though. Small increases in some places, small decreases in others.
It's biodigital jazz, man.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 26, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
What's your working definition of "Taking over a game?"
Because I would argue that the biggest difference is not that Dunleavy can’t do it, it’s that he doesn’t try to. Dunleavy is certainly creating his own shots, he’s not a Dorell-type complementary player. He has the ball in his hands a lot.
And, given how well he’s playing, otherwise, I’d say that’s a good thing. I like players who play within themselves. I think a player who plays within himself and is consistently effective is a better player than one who tries to do too much, even if the latter occasionally gets away with it.
I find it telling that you keep citing per-game points numbers. Is “the ability to take over a game” just a coded re-wording of “points per game?”
Yes. Monta scores more points. So what? That doesn’t make him a better player.
Dunleavy
Wasn’t ready physically when he came into the league. The dumb W’s didn’t sense that, drafted him basically for the smart team that knew he’d mature late and snag him when he was a few years into the league.
In fact, had it not been for injuries, Dunleavy would be quite respected about right now. He had a very good year, very good…a few ago, but’s been hurt since, until about now.
If you put Dunleavy’s hoops IQ in Monta’s talents, then you’d have a player (and due to the times we live in, i’ll add the required comment about how there are also many black players i’d say that about and only used Mdee as an example because that’s who we’re talking about.)
As it is, they’re closer in overall talent/effectiveness than folks think.
by supersugarCrisp on Dec 24, 2010 6:06 PM PST up reply actions
and
why you gonna make the mavs even better!?!?! just cut the mavs out, granger straight up for gadz and broken wing. the trade is just as ridiculous without making a good team in the west better . . . I HATE THE MAVS!!!
by No Dice Jim Rice on Dec 21, 2010 11:02 AM PST reply actions
Yes!
I voted no, and my better idea is for you to stop making trade threads.
'Like' my band. I mean, it'd be awesome if you did that.
haha.. aww
Dont trip… but people just need to really really think about these ‘what-if’ trades. The whole league is not biased for the Warriors’ success.
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
well then..
try to think of a deal to get Josh Howard from the Washington Wizards… :D
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
by Ro3ert0 on Dec 22, 2010 2:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
That actually sounds like a plan.
They have absolutely no use for him, and he’s a former All-Star. Only 30 years old, and if he’s healthy (would not trade for him yet and wait until he plays a little more) he’d be a solid addition.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
If he plays more in Washington..
then he is most likely to show how good he can be which will make Washington want to keep him or increase his worth in next year’s possible NBA season if no lockout occurs.
I’d trade for him now and let him chill the whole season but have him battle ready for next
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
Trade for him and then not play him?
I’d be alright trading for him now, but not if it meant keeping him off the bench. We need someone to be a scoring option this season. With Howard, I think we’d have decent scorers two deep at SG and SF, which has been an issue this season, because Reggie has been starting games and Monta and Dorell have had to play 40 minutes a night. We need someone who can play SF and a big SG. He’s that guy. So if we were to trade for him now or later, it wouldn’t make sense to sit him on the bench.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
Well..
I don’t know what his injury was but it was severe if he missed parts of last season and parts of this season. I wouldn’t play him unless he is 100% healthy.
I guess what I meant to say is I wouldn’t want to rush him into playing, I’d be cautious unless doctors say he is ready to go.
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
He's already back.
Played 20+ minutes in their last 3 games.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
c'mon man!
you owe me the thirty seconds of my life back that it took to read this post
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
as much fun as the espn trade machine is to fantasize about building a GS championship team...
the most common misconception about it is that it factors in the actual desire, needs, and wants of each team.
in reality, it is nothing but a fancy calculator or number cruncher just to match similar contracts.
If this were feasible, then I’d take this in a heartbeat. but unfortunately, it never will be
Steph + Monta for prez and vp
I don't think people even realize this.
But Mike Dunleavy’s turned into a legit stud.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 12:13 PM PST reply actions
i wouldn't go as far as stud
but he’s turned into something that most warriors fans NEVER expected from him. he’s too oft injured though, but he’s developed one sexy shot
With the powers of Steph and Monta combined.....WE TURN INTO...... CAPTAIN PLANET!!!!
by j-spliff415 on Dec 21, 2010 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
His 2007-08 season was great.
And he’s showing signs he’s getting back to that. I was really disapointed in Warrior fans when he got the loud, lebron like boos. Warrior fans at the arena sometimes just show no class and boo random guys… they did it to Dunleavy louder than Stephen Jackson? Dunleavy never complained, he never asked for the hate, didn’t ask for a trade but he gets boo’ed off the court. Shaking my head.
by GovernorStephCurry on Dec 21, 2010 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
Agreed, good point.
But he was a bit boring while he was here but desearves better welcome than Jack the Knife.
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 21, 2010 2:24 PM PST up reply actions
A stud that doesn't even start every game?
For a sub-.500 team mind you. In the East. Who gets benched for Brandon Rush half the time because his defense isn’t good enough. He’s average at everything. Agree with your later post about him getting boos, though. That’s not really fair.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
Pacers will never ever let Granger go
unless it’s for LeBron James/Dwayne Wade/superstars etc…
This deal is a slap in the face for the Indiana.
This deal is a slap in the face for the Indiana.
maybe that’s what they want?!
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 21, 2010 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
There is a lot of worry in Indiana that the Pacers will be sold and moved.
Hope that it doesnt happen. Indiana has a great basketball tradition.
by Only In Fairfax on Dec 22, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
And for those clamoring over Dunleavy's "breakout" season
Remember, it’s a contract year for him. Of course he’s gonna try his hardest.
"It's like Will Smith, remember the Fresh Prince? Get the ball don't let nobody else shoot? That's kinda what the offense can be sometimes, and they're just standing around waiting for Monta to make a play"
-MT2
by golden_solitude on Dec 21, 2010 10:17 PM PST reply actions
JOSH HOWARD??
anyone??
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
For who'm?
I’d like him
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
B Wright and someother scrub bench players...
Josh Howard is on a 1 year deal roughly 3.5 million, I say we trade for him, don’t play him at all this year and let him recover 100% for next year cuz he is probably out of shape and completely out of rhythm.
If he comes of the bench, he provides good scoring, though not shooting, and can get his own shot up like Reggie Williams if not better.
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
Josh Howard?!
that’s a pretty big risk; he missed most of this season with a pretty serious knee injury
I would take him as an affordable bench player, but I thought he made more money for some reason…
Also not sure if he is the type of veteran we want around the team…I would rather get somebody known for defense, we have plenty of offensive-focused players already
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 22, 2010 3:05 PM PST up reply actions
True
but I can’t even think of a good defensive player that their current team would part ways with… Udoka, Bogans… Greg Buckner?? lol
Players like Battier and Marion are too vital to their teams to be traded for a Warrior scrub or two.
Now the only reason i suggest Josh Howard is because he is cheap at the moment, a risk which is why the Wizards might part ways with him but also someone who if completely healed and in the right mind, can put up good numbers.
The most intriguing part is his ability to get his own shot up which is why I think we should pursue him, he will help our bench out a lot in scoring points.
I make love to pressure - Stephen Jackson
They tried to put me in a BOX - Stephon Marbury
he’s old, has bad knees (and ankles), and might not recover
that’s why he’s cheap at the moment
as my high school coach used to shout at me when I took a shot too far outside
“Yer open for a reason [my last name]!”
just because the opportunity is there, doesn’t mean you should always take it
We have raw, young talent but they need to be balanced out by a hard ass who won’t accept lackluster ball.
-BayGiant11
by Duby Dub Dubs on Dec 23, 2010 2:10 PM PST up reply actions
The plan to trade for him to not play him in hopes that he resigns with us next year never works. See Raja Bell.
by sportsguy950 on Dec 30, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
B Wright straight up?
A second round pick? They don’t have much use for him with Thorton and Lewis, unless they plan to give him more minutes than Both Nick Young and Hinrich at the 2.
The Lakers have a bigger chance of missing the playoffs than the Warriors have of making them.
hahahah the pacers trade danny granger for THAT?!
keep dreaming.
Broscience investigator.
by HOLDEMUPGoldenStateOfOppression on Dec 22, 2010 2:05 AM PST reply actions
This is one of the dumbest trade proposals ever.
Why in the world would the pacers even consider something like this? We are all dumb for having read this, I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I pulled this out on here not long ago.
Some guy wanted to trade for Gilbert Arenas before he was sent to Orlando.
It's biodigital jazz, man.
by Reverend_Randy on Dec 27, 2010 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
I would at least sympathize with a dumb trade if we were the beneficiaries.
But in this trade, not only are the Pacers dumb enough to give up Granger , but who gets him? Cuban and the Mav’s??? As if they’re not loaded up enough!
by War Years Legacy on Dec 27, 2010 7:34 PM PST up reply actions

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