RUMOR: Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins to Celtics, Ray Allen, Kendrick Perkins, and J.R. Giddens to Warriors
by Atma Brother ONE on Feb 15, 2010 8:52 PM PST
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Print77% of folks around these golden parts weren't exactly feeling Monta Ellis for Ray Allen (read: salary dump by Warriors owner Chris Cohan)- see: RUMOR: Monta Ellis to Boston Celtics, Ray Allen to Golden State Warriors
I can only imagine what the poll results are going to look like for this one.
His game isn't exactly pretty, but Kendrick Perkins would be the Warriors toughest and most physical defender since... well, since Erick Dampier was trying his best to sucker Mark Cuban into that ridiculous long-term deal.
Jump for the 4-1-1!
From web's world of hoops Hoopsworld:
The rumor out of Dallas was that Boston has discussed a deal with Golden State that would send Ray Allen, Kendrick Perkins, and J.R. Giddens to the Warriors for Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins.
The trade is cap friendly and it was just one of the rumors floating around this past weekend. It was reported that Boston has also reached out to Sacramento and Philadelphia as they continue to shop Allen for younger talent.
Parting with Perkins would be tough since he's capable of defending the big men in the East, something Biedrins could struggle with. But in order to pry young talent away from teams, it's going to take more than just Allen's expiring contract.
Giddens looks to be a throw-in to make the numbers work, so let's quickly examine the other players involved here.
For the Celtics...
Beantown and Ainge are looking to go all in this trading deadline. I can respect that. This might very well be the last chance they get to contend for quite some time. Take a look at these numbers:
- 14.3 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 2.7 apg, 0.8 blocks, 1.0 steals
- 16.0 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.7 apg, 0.9 steals
If you can believe it. those are the numbers Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen respectively have been putting up this season. There's nothing superstar about them. Not even close. They're on the decline. (Yes, call me Captain Obvious- I deserve it for that one.)
The Celtics obviously need to do something if they're remotely interested in competing against the Cleveland Cavaliers, Orlando Magic, or Atlanta Hawks this spring. We won't even get into the LA Lakers. But are Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins the solution?
I can't say I'm really feeling the Ellis-Rajon Rondo pairing. With the kind of numbers Rondo is putting up this year, I'd be very hesitant to pair him up with a ball dominating, smallish 2-guard. Anything that would take the rock out of Rondo's hands and put it in the hands of the league's turnover leader doesn't seem so bright.
Biedrins is in the midst of his worst season since his second year in the league. Instead of throwing the uber-physical Perkins at the other Eastern Conference bigs in the playoffs, the Celtics would be throwing an undersized and soft center out to the wolves. That just doesn't seem like a good idea, especially when there's no coach like Don Nelson to take advantage of Biedrins' above average agility for a 5 or put up with his soft defense.
In short, despite what the Warriors homers would like to make you believe, Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins are not the answer for a championship contender, especially the Celtics. The Celts should be thinking A-M-A-R-E, but that's another story for another time.
For more on the Boston Celtics check out our brother site the world famous Celtics Blog.
For the Warriors...
You can make some great arguments why Kendrick Perkins is an upgrade over Andris Biedrins. Perkins is a tough, rugged defender (arguably dirty) who can protect the paint and play man D and frustrate pretty much any big man out there. Biedrins simply cannot do and never has. Perkins can set some vicious screens to open up great looks for shooters. Biedrins sets soft screens which he leaves too early that never open up space for his teammate handling the ball to either drive to the lane or pull up for a good look; his screens are about rolling to the bucket (which he does extremely well). Given the contracts (1 year remaining at $4.4 million for Perkins vs 4 more years at $9 million for Biedrins) and the slight age difference I'd actually rather have Perkins.
So that's fine. Andris Biedrins for Kendrick Perkins. Perfectly reasonable for the Warriors.
But Ray Allen for Monta Ellis? Here's what I said before:
While Monta Ellis is having a superb season considering his Moped Gate comeback, heavy minutes, and lack of help (due to both lack of talent and perpetually injured teammates), it's hard to call him untouchable. He will never be a legit point guard in this league given his seemingly unsolvable high dribble and addiction to the dangerously sweet things in life... like apple TURNOVERS. His defense is vastly improved, but he's not exactly a shutdown defender. Monta's hoops IQ leaves a lot to be desired, especially at the end of quarters and games. His history of tantrums is indeed a huge red flag.
It's also true that the Monta Ellis- Stephen Curry backcourt probably won't go all that far. Baron Davis - Jason Richardson aka BoomRich they are not.
BUT trading him for an expiring contract at this point is just foolish. Absolutely foolish. Ray Allen is on the decline and will not re-sign with the Warriors this offseason. That cap space is worthless for a team owned by Chris Cohan.
Don't get me wrong. I do love Ray Allen. I mean who doesn't love some Jesus Shuttleworth? But this isn't about the Warriors brining in Ray Allen, it's about dumping more money from the books.
Nothing has changed.
By the way where are all those bandwagon Warriors fans and media who were hyping up Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins as the FUTURE? Where are all those folks who were so oddly ecstatic to destroy WE BELIEVE to build around these two flawed players?
I can hear the crickets chirping on this fine Bay Area February evening, but not you.
Also thanks to loyal GSoMer sam23 for the heads up in the FanShots.
99% of rumors never happen, but 99% of them are fun to talk about!
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Not gonna happen
without Monta and the AB, the dubs will be slow down significantly. There will be no one who can drive to the basket, penetrate. Just not gonna do any good for the Warriors. Even if this is a trade to free salary, I dont see any big star coming to the Warriors next year. We need to remember that Stars wont go to bad team.
no chirping here!
there has been way too much statistical anylasis of the players on this team. the dubs are a bizzarre aberration this year. virtually no one on this team is doing even close to what they would sans injuries.
let’s be real here: building a championship calibre team around monta and beans would be very unlikely, and virtually impossible under cohen, but i seem to remember some guys named iverson and mutombo (at the tail end of his career) that no one thought could compete against the mighty lakers, and we all no how close they came!
bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Feb 15, 2010 9:10 PM PST reply actions
+1000000
there has been way too much statistical anylasis of the players on this team.
I wouldn't trade Monta for a player like Ray Allen
Monta’s still young and will probably only get better while Ray has been on the decline.
I don’t see the benefits in this trade for the team.
I don’t like the trade…but it is purely a salary dump…Ray Allens decline doesn’t really matter in the trade.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Feb 15, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Atma, a lot of the things you say have no statistical backing.
In short, despite what the Warriors homers would like to make you believe, Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins are not the answer for a championship contender, especially the Celtics. The Celts should be thinking A-M-A-R-E, but that’s another story for another time.
Why would the Celtics go after Amar’e. The Celtics have the best ball movement and defense in the league. Amar’e automatically makes them severely worse in those two areas.
If you can believe it. those are the numbers Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen respectively have been putting up this season. There’s nothing superstar about them. Not even close. They’re on the decline. (Yes, call me Captain Obvious- I deserve it for that one.)
Well, you didn’t mention KG’s WP and continued SUPERSTAR defense. His offense is very efficient. Ray Allen is still incredibly efficient in the worst season of his career. I don’t think Allen will ever be a superstar again, but i doubt he finishes the season as he is right now. They’re both very good players still.
While Monta Ellis is having a superb season considering his Moped Gate comeback, heavy minutes, and lack of help (due to both lack of talent and perpetually injured teammates), it’s hard to call him untouchable. He will never be a legit point guard in this league given his seemingly unsolvable high dribble and addiction to the dangerously sweet things in life… like apple TURNOVERS. His defense is vastly improved, but he’s not exactly a shutdown defender. Monta’s hoops IQ leaves a lot to be desired, especially at the end of quarters and games. His history of tantrums is indeed a huge red flag.
It’s also true that the Monta Ellis- Stephen Curry backcourt probably won’t go all that far. Baron Davis – Jason Richardson aka BoomRich they are not.
BUT trading him for an expiring contract at this point is just foolish. Absolutely foolish. Ray Allen is on the decline and will not re-sign with the Warriors this offseason. That cap space is worthless for a team owned by Chris Cohan.
One, Monta is not having a superb season. Two, the BD and JR backcourt was never that great. I don’t recall them doing anything besides one good playoff series.
Three, Ray Allen is still better than Monta is right now, and we get a ton of cap space.
The only thing that i can slightly agree with you upon is the difference in Perkins and Biedrins on the defensive end.
However, most of your commentary is completely subjective, and just more Biedrins hate.
Biedrins simply cannot do and never has.
Biedrins sets soft screens which he leaves too early that never open up space for his teammate handling the ball to either drive to the lane or pull up for a good look
hat just doesn’t seem like a good idea, especially when there’s no coach like Don Nelson to take advantage of Biedrins’ above average agility for a 5 or put up with his soft defense.
Biedrins is in the midst of his worst season since his second year in the league.
the Celtics would be throwing an undersized and soft center out to the wolves.This sounds more like Kelly Dwyer than the great Atma :)
banned like chris andersen
by MDB on Feb 15, 2010 9:30 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'm confused
Well, you didn’t mention KG’s WP and continued SUPERSTAR defense. His offense is very efficient. Ray Allen is still incredibly efficient in the worst season of his career.
So, if Rondo is amazing, Paul Pierce is still Paul Pierce, and Kendrick Perkins is a bruiser, why is this team under-performing? They keep blowing big leads in games, so it’s gotta be something. I don’t watch the C’s too often, so I really don’t know. Any ideas? I hate their coach, I’ve always thought he was horrible, but he has a ring and a lot of backing. Is their bench (Sheed, Tony Allen, Marquis Daniels) that bad?
Their bench has been terrible this year. Dave Berri notes that Ray Allen isn’t producing like he did in the past, but he is still a good player. KG, Pierce, and Rondo have been great. Perkins is playing very well.
Is their bench (Sheed, Tony Allen, Marquis Daniels) that bad?
Yes. It is terrible. ‘Sheed has been a joke. Big Baby has a negative WP . House isn’t playing well. Neither is Daniels.
Only Tony Allen and Shelden Williams have an average WP. And those guys don’t play that much. Williams isn’t even getting off the bench because of Big Baby’s return. Since Big Baby has returned, the team has gone down the drain. I’m not trying to blame him, but having KG out, with Big Baby replacing a bunch of his minutes, it is not hard to see why they have been bad.
banned like chris andersen
What?
Ray Allen is still better than Monta is right now
The only way you could defend this statement would be to redefine the word “better.”
by WheresMyChippy on Feb 16, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
Rec'd
There’s a middle ground between being a “homer,” of which there are a lot (and Atma is right to say so), and being a… well, I don’t really want to say “hater,” because it’s a much harder word in juxtaposition. Point is, trying to subjectively analyze a basketball player will invariably involve a lot of personal and emotional bias unless you’re a) VERY careful and attentive to objectivity, or b) relying heavily on statistical analysis to hinge your claims. I’m willing to concede that I’ve fallen prey to this sort of thing, despite the fact that I try very hard to avoid it and think objectively. Deron Williams, for example, has always rubbed me the wrong way, and I’ve never praised him properly relative to his abilitiy as a result (until now, I guess, if you consider this a tacit admission). Having followed GSOM for a few years, now, it seems like Atma may have a similar hitch regarding Biedrins. Not to say that he doesn’t have flaws, but his strengths seem to go mostly unnoticed, and certainly almost never remarked upon.
The “Andris Biedrins Starting Center Matchup” post from a while back, for example. In being posted just a few games after his return from injury, as well as ignoring that he actually won one or two of the matchups, it seemed rather distasteful. I’ll grant you that on it’s own you could say, “well, this is just casual humor, sort of a fun thing.” But when taken in the context of the posts on the whole, it’s clear that the disdain for Biedrins is pretty pervasive. And when viewed in the context of this team, the front office, the coaching staff, the view from around the league, and the sorts of season’s he’s had, it rather defies reason. There aren’t many teams in the league that wouldn’t be tickled pink to have Andris Biedrins, and I wish we as Warriors fans weren’t such a thoroughly scarred, traumatized and disoriented bunch that we could better recognize that.
I have a very strong feeling the Warriors are simply not going to trade Ellis.
And it’s a good thing. At the earliest, maybe next year’s deadline if we are still just as bad.
by HOLDEMUPGoldenStateOfOppression on Feb 15, 2010 9:35 PM PST reply actions
OMG!! OMG!!
I actually agree with AB1 on something….write down the time and date: it might be a while before it happens again.
This trade is a joke. Chris Cohan is a joke. Larry Riley is a joke. Nellie is a joke.
Biedrins is in the midst of his worst season since his second year in the league.
I would guess this is exactly why the C’s want Biedrins. They know his real value is much higher than he is currently showing, and with the W’s ownership/management/coaching situation, it sounds like a great time to fleece the W’s. For all we know, they have less interest in Monta than Andris.
That just doesn’t seem like a good idea, especially when there’s no coach like Don Nelson to take advantage of Biedrins’ above average agility for a 5 or put up with his soft defense.
I would guess the C’s think Biedrins would actually play good D since he’s never played with a legitimate PF in his career.
BUT…If I were Danny Ainge, I would blow up the C’s, starting with trading Ray Allen and KG. Boston got its title, but both players are going downhill quickly, and there is 0% chance they win the title this year as presently constructed.
Oh, one other thing
I’m just guessing that since just about every player who has left GS in the past year or so has gone on to improve their new team, most GM’s probably believe there’s just a systemic organizational failure here rather than a lack of talented, quality players.
What the hell is all this salary cap dumping going to do? What’s the point if we’re not going to sign a star, or if we have no urgent need to re-sign any of our players. If this happens, I expect Boston’s next two 1st round picks to be thrown in.
It would be smarter to trade Maggette and Biedrins…. that would be a win-win for both teams. I just don’t think you can win when you have a Center with poor D, and guard who turns the ball over so frequently…. who’s defense isn’t that great either.
Anyways, the team’s not going anywhere soon, so they might as well dump the salary and overpay Turiaf later, like they did with Adonal Foyle a few years ago…. and Murphy…. and Dunleavy…. and… etc. etc. etc.
Warriors lose significantly....
This will happen,though. Chris Cohan wants to cut us deep before he makes his departure so he probably told Riley to pull this off.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Feb 15, 2010 10:44 PM PST reply actions
Boneheaded trade idea...
Trading Monta for a salary dump would be so stupid. The injury plagued dubs just need to get through this season, somehow acquire a big-time power forward in the summer, and all will be well next season.
Throwing it out there: in one Celtics chatroom, they’re talking discussing Morrow as part of this crazy rumor, which makes it even more ridiculously lopsided talent-wise.
I mean, I’d gladly trade Monta and Biedrins and Morrow for Perk and a 100% shot at Larry Ellison and (one of) LeBron, Wade, or Bosh. But if we’re just talking about giving up that much talent for just a prayer that we might land one of the big three … wow, no thanks.
There will be no extra point!
I’d trade Monta, Biedrins, and Morrow for Perk and KG/Pierce in a heartbeat. It would never happen, but i dream.
banned like chris andersen
You don't think they need each other?
KG and Pierce struggled to win before coming together. Seperate them and I see this happening again
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
KG and Pierce struggled to win before coming together. Seperate them and I see this happening again
KG’s T-Wolves has an average record of 43-39, and that includes his last couple years there where he was surrounded with a failed rebuilding effort. They had a run 8 straight years making the playoffs, and each of the years it was KG and the 11 dwarves. Except for the one year that they surrounded him players who were slightly above average (people tend to overrate how good Cassell and Spree were that year) and they make the Western Conference Finals.
Pierce’s Celts were even worse than KG’s T-Wolves before KG and Allen arrived, but their average record was still 37-45, and they did have a run of 4 years where they made the playoffs that included 1 trip to the Eastern Conference Finals.
So really, the lack of success Pierce and Garnett had is due to their playing with complete scrubs. Much like the argument people claim about why Monta can’t help the Warriors win. However, both Pierce and Garnett were (and still are, even though they are both on the decline) much better than Monta.
Also, they are likely to struggle if they stay together or if they split up in the future, as they are both getting towards the end of their prime years.
I may be crazy but I think this is the only way we'd get a legitimate center
I LOVE MONTA but… I don’t know if he’ll ever really “get” team basketball. Biedrins IMO gets KILLED every game by Perkins. This dude is a beast and can easily be a 10/10 guy for us night in and night out. He’d compliment either of our skinny super athletic power forwards very well. I don’t care if Perkins would slow us down, I care about rebounding/boxing out/ standing ground on the post/ and getting TOUGH! Perkins can withstand any center in the post so we might actually stand a change against the NBA’s elite down low. I know Monta has been our star but… I really want to see the dubs play team basketball and with traditional players at their respective positions. This is what I can see for the future if this trade happens:
Stephen Curry / CJ Watson? I think he’s gone.
Ray Allen / Anthony Morrow / Evan Turner
Azubuike / Magette / Evan Turner
Anthony Randolph / Wright
Kendrick Perkins / Turiaf
I care about rebounding/boxing out/ standing ground on the post/ and getting TOUGH!
Thing is, for all his toughness / boxing out / standing ground his net result in terms of actual rebounds is not as good as Biedrins.’
That said, I do far prefer his badass on-court demeanor to AB’s; and anecdotally, he does seem to be a much better man defender than AB. Offensively, he seems to share AB’s understanding of his limitations, and ability to get shots from in close. And despite his veteran demeanor and championship experience, he’s only a couple years older than AB.
On Biedrins’ side of the ledger, he’s a lot quicker, a slightly better weakside/help defender, and better-suited to Nellieball pace…
Overall, I’d probably call it about a push, maybe slight preference for Perk in a “grass is always greener” way. The x-factor might be what kind of an extension Perkins will demand after next season. If we can lock him into a reasonable Biedrins-type 4-5 year deal … yeah, I’d probably pull the trigger.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 16, 2010 10:57 AM PST up reply actions
I happen to like Perkins...
This dude is a beast and can easily be a 10/10 guy for us night in and night out.
…but let’s be fair, here. Biedrins has had a 10/10 season for us, while Perkins never has. They both have pretty strict ceilings on how many minutes they’ve gotten, but Biedrins still managed it in 30/game. In about 28/game, Perkins is snagging 8 boards- a respectable number, but looking at their career numbers there’s no reason to think Biedrins won’t ultimately continue to be the much better rebounder. And I’m generally skeptical about prioritizing a tough image equal to or greater than what you actually get done on the court. There are certainly reasons to like Perkins, and I’m not roundly dismissing the idea, but to list the first thing you care about as rebounding simply doesn’t help an argument for Perkins, since he’s worse at it.
Biedrins...
…doesn’t exactly match the sort of identity you’d usually associate with the Celtics, but if he’s packaged with Monta it’s a good deal for them. Neither Perkins nor Biedrins is a particularly dynamic offensive player, nor do they require set plays for their offensive games. They’re both very efficient from the field, with Perkins having the edge in that regard this season. On a team trotting out both Paul Pierce and Monta Ellis, I daresay Biedrins’ style would be ideal. I also suspect playing with a point like Rondo may produce some bump in his raw scoring, as well, simply because he’s so swift on the pick and roll.
In short, despite what the Warriors homers would like to make you believe, Monta Ellis and Andris Biedrins are not the answer for a championship contender, especially the Celtics. The Celts should be thinking A-M-A-R-E, but that’s another story for another time.
Frankly, I think the Celtics are the ONLY contender these two are a reasonable fit in. Ellis has shown the ability to muscle up against bigger guards this year, and his responsibilities in Boston would be far less than here. With Rondo manning the point, you’ve got a dynamite backcourt in terms of speed and athleticism, and Ellis can return to playing off the ball, hopefully regaining some of his lost efficiency since the Baron years. I don’t exactly know what the C’s have as far as a backup 2 is concerned, but the size doesn’t worry me terribly, especially considering the other SGs in the East (Wade isn’t phenomenally tall, though very strong, and Carter doesn’t force the action inside enough to really burn you from a size standpoint).
Also, as for Amare… for all the ribbing aimed at “Warriors homers” who overrate our talent, the dedicated praise and insistence about Stoudemire is just that. I’m sure the Celtics would love to have his great offensive skill set, but do you really think they don’t know how absolutely apathetic he is on defense? Save for blocking Tim Duncan’s shot in the playoffs something like five years ago, I can’t recall a significant defensive play he’s made. Think Garnett will be happy watching Amar’e wave people to the basket? The C’s are all about defense from an organizational level. Both Biedrins and Ellis, even with their warts, are more capable in that regard than Stoudemire. He is, in certain circles around these parts, a serially overrated player. A great scorer, yes. But absolutely nothing more.
Could this be the reason Monta is not playing tonight
If this deal was about to happen, I would think you would not risk further injury. His spill looked bad when it happened, but I remember seeing reports the next day that it was not as bad as they thought.
Plus i would think they want to see how the team plays with Curry at the helm against a well rested Lakers squad. If they play well it might get done.
If It Wasn't that Bad
Why is Monta seeing Dr. James Andrews? Initial diagnosis may have been good, but it could actually be worse than feared.
Well
Maybe he’s just being extra careful cause it’s the same one he had surgery on, and Dr. Andrews preformed the initial procedure when Ellis was in HS. I still can see a scenario where the team is in no rush to bring him back, and this provides them with an opportunity to make another evaluation of Curry and weigh their options. My point is you never know with these guys. We all thought they were gonna keep speedy as this great trade chip.
I can’t wait for the deadline to pass without Riley getting abused in some horrible trade
The trade makes absolutely no sense at all
Biedrins is far superior to Perkins. Perkins only makes noise because he doesn’t have to do anything but try for offensive rebounds. He has no offensive game! He’s nowhere near the passer that Biedrins is either.
Perkins also is constantly among the league leaders in t’s. No thank you! The Celtics win this trade big time. Heck, even if the trade was Biedrins for Allen, Perkins, and Giddens the Celtics would still win!
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