Polling GSoM: Monta Ellis to Memphis Grizzlies, O.J. Mayo + Hasheem Thabeet (+ maybe Hamed Haddadi) to Golden State Warriors- Are you down?
by Atma Brother ONE on Feb 20, 2010 2:03 PM PST
in Rumors
152 comments
The 2010 NBA Trade Deadline has come and gone and despite holding the 3rd worst record in the league the Golden State Warriors did nothing- absolutely nothing. From here on out for the rest of Chris Cohan's majority ownership of the Warriors I don't want to hear about how the Warriors made a great trade for expiring contracts. What's the point? Cohan's Warriors just makes those moves to lighten the load on his pocket book and clear the way for more D-Leaguers (I must note that I do like and appreciate what Anthony Tolliver has brought to the Dubs, but this isn't about his game, it's about dollars and cents- not sense.)
There were rumors of Ronny Turiaf to the Denver Nuggets, Corey Maggette to the Cleveland Cavaliers, Monta Ellis to the Boston Celtics, Ellis and Andris Biedrins to the Celtics, and Anthony Morrow to the Philadelphia 76ers that didn't come true.
Teammates who actually root for one another- what a concept!
via media.commercialappeal.com
But this one was BY FAR the most intriguing. It actually makes sense- not just cents for Cohan and crew.
JUMP for all that and a bag of Jalapeno chips!
I'll pass the mic to GSoM friends Tim Kawakami and Matt Steinmetz for more details on this offer from the Grizzles that the Warriors reportedly rejected like Thabeet does 4.0 per 36:
- Monta Ellis talk: Warriors turned down Memphis' offer of OJ Mayo + salaries [Talking Points]
- Warriors Nearly Traded Ellis to Memphis [CSN Bay Area]
According to separate league sources, the Warriors rejected a proposed deal with Memphis that would have sent
Monta Ellis to the Grizzlies for O.J. Mayo and 7-foot-3 rookie center Hasheem Thabeet.Another player,
Hamed Haddadi, may or may not have been included in the deal.
If the Warriors really could have netted O.J. Mayo and Hasheem Thabeet for Monta Ellis, I'm a little frustrated they didn't pull the trigger.
O.J. Mayo...
Nothing like your daily dose of OJ.
We got your Real Mayo right here folks.
Hasheem Thabeet...
Tha beet goes on... on.... on...
via ramerah.com
Shoot, on names alone I do this trade.
A Curry & O.J. or Curry & Mayo backcourt? Stef-fun and O.J. putting on a Mayo Clinic regularly against other backcourts across the association by 2012? Thabeet rejecting shots in Oaktown like Adonal Foyle?
I'm down.
I'm more than down.
Hoops wise and even salary wise it's hard to imagine the Warriors doing much better than dealing out their flawed centerpiece for Mayo and Thabeet. Ellis is young, but Mayo and Thabeet are even younger. Mayo is a very intriguing young player in this league and seems to be better long term pairing with Stephen Curry and even a better player than Monta when it's all said and done. You could argue that Thabeet has been a bust thus far in his young career, but there's nothing wrong in taking a flyer on him if the centerpiece is Mayo.
The Fresh Prince of The Yay.
For the Grizzlies they will be a getting a local attraction that is an exciting, proven high volume scorer who is still young and locked in on a very reasonable deal. It's hard to find much fault with that for a team that isn't quite a box office hit in Memphis yet.
This is a rare trade rumor that makes sense on a multitude of levels for both teams- which means it's not surprising it didn't happen. Let's face it, the NBA trades that actually go down rarely seem to make sense, just cents for one party looking to trim payroll.
Let's hope this isn't the last of this trade sketch we hear about. Here's some possible versions of this trade to revisit in late spring/ summer:
- Ellis for Mayo and Thabeet [ESPN Trade Machine]- Again, it looks good for both squads. Not that it means much in the overall picture, but it would be amazing to see the Warriors convert a 2nd round pick from the 2006 NBA Draft into a 2008 #3 1st round pick and a 2009 #2 1st round pick. When you abstract away from the actual players involved that's pretty neat. But I will note that you can't take that at face value. I mean the #3 guy could easily be someone like Adam Morrison and the #2 player could be Darko Milicic.
- Ellis for Mayo, Thabeet, and Marcus Williams [ESPN Trade Machine]- Maybe the Grizzlies could trade Chris Mullin trade bust Williams back to Nellie and the Dubs (via sign and trade) just for some more cheap laughs- see: Polling GSoM: Are you going to miss Marcus Williams? Hey, we'd be laughing.
- Ellis, Brandan Wright, and Ronny Turiaf for Mayo, Thabeet, Marc Gasol, DeMarre Carroll, Darrell Arthur, and Sam Young [ESPN Trade Machine]- The trade could be expanded to give the Dubs a very nice young big man and the Grizzlies a talented lottery pick forward that didn't quite get much airtime in the Bay Area along with another shot blocker in Turiaf.
- Ellis and Andris Biedrins for Mayo, Thabeet, Gasol, Darrell Arthur, Hamed Haddadi, DeMarre Carroll, and Sam Young [ESPN Trade Machine]- The Grizzlies would never do this (just like the above trade), but the Warriors could finally dump those absurd dreams that Ellis and Biedrins were a tandem worth building around. Sigh, that would be a relief. Again, where are all those people now who were clamoring for the Warriors to dump salaries right after WE BELIEVE spring 2007 to build around a young Ellis and Biedrins with their (mythical) insane upside and preaching patience because these guys were the "FUTURE"? (We can hear the crickets chirping, but we can't hear you.)
Should the Warriors and Grizzlies revisit this trade scenario over summer? How would you have felt if it went down this past Thursday on the trade deadline?
Also see the FanShot from CSN Bay Area on this topic.
Make sure to check out our blog brother Straight Outta Vancouver for some thoughts from Memphis on this offer.
99% of rumors never happen, but 99% of them are fun to talk about!
0 recs |
152 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
It doesn't make sense
I don’t believe that the Grizzlies would trade away such young, talented players still on their rookie contracts. Mayo was a #3 pick, Thabeet was a #2 pick, and neither has disappointed. Thabeet is still a raw project and his decreased playing time in his rookie season says nothing about his great potential.
I just can’t see why they would trade all that away just for Monta when we, his own fanbase, aren’t even completely convinced that he’s helping us win. OJ Mayo may be better than Monta Ellis already.
"We Deserve"
This is the franchise that virtually gave away it's best player (ever) to the Lakers.
Chris Wallace and Michael Heisley aren’t exactly known for their trade acumen.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
The Gasol trade made sense for them for different reasons besides just basketball talent. They saved a huge a chunk of change by acquiring Kwame Brown’s giant expiring contract. It’s the right way to rebuild, something that we don’t know how to do. That’s usually how the big impact trades go down anyway. A common trend in recent history is this:
[Good player with a large contract on a bad team in a poor market]
gets traded for
[ Large expiring contracts and/or draft picks and/or young cheap talent ]
Pau Gasol, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Baron Davis (Hornets→Warriors), are all examples of this.
"We Deserve"
No, it wasn’t the right way to rebuild. They could have easily spent money to acquire talent to surround Gasol. Gasol is an all-world talent. You don’t trade a young star for cap space, when you already have a ton of it.
KG was way different. He was getting older, and McHale was an idiot. He should have done what Boston did, instead of giving Garnett to Boston-for free essentially. He didn’t get a single good player in that deal. And whatever cap-space they saved, they spent it on Jefferson.
Ray Allen was on a terrible team at age 32…. he wasn’t helping and they had the #2 pick in the draft. They were already starting to rebuild.
Baron was an injury prone malcontent. We got him for a good deal because of that.
They got CP3 the next year so they have no regrets.
banned like chris andersen
He didn’t get a single good player in that deal.
Well, they thought Jefferson was a good player. In light of what they thought about Jefferson and how he was the center piece of the trade, it makes some sense.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 3:24 PM PST up reply actions
But as it turns out, it was a terrible move. Jefferson isn’t very good, and the cap space they got was used on Jefferson. Memphis is really lucky Marc is decent, because otherwise they would still be really bad.
banned like chris andersen
Basically.
If Marc hadn’t lost all that weight and really panned out, they’d be looking at literally nothing back from that trade. All three players are gone, and the 2008 draft pick (Donte Greene) was traded for Darrell Arthur, and they used that cap space to sign Zach Randolph, who is basically a worse version of Pau. Awkward.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
What are you smoking
Al Jefferson isnt a good player he is arguably the best young big man in the league.
This is my city Oakland, California just to be exact il tell you where its at. Pick up a globe pick up a map see San Francisco cross the water right there exact....
- Mista F.A.B.
by TheRealRocWill on Feb 20, 2010 6:18 PM PST up reply actions
man yall trippen
he averages a 17 and 9 with great low post moves … what else do you want from this guy
This is my city Oakland, California just to be exact il tell you where its at. Pick up a globe pick up a map see San Francisco cross the water right there exact....
- Mista F.A.B.
by TheRealRocWill on Feb 23, 2010 3:57 PM PST up reply actions
And yet they're winning.
I dunno, Memphis has been surprisingly good this year. Can’t knock em’ for their signings or their trades right now.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
I’ll just note here that their pythag record is 24.6-29.4 according to BB-Ref….
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
Ray Allen netted the 5th pick in the draft and Delonte West, Garnett netted Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes, Davis was traded after spats with the coaching staff and a ton of injuries.
Gasol was traded for his brother (who was not regarded very highly, Marc himself didn’t know he’d be this good), Javaris Crittenton, Kwame Brown and Aaron McKie. That’s terrible. There’s no way that was the best they could get for a top 5 center on a reasonable contract.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 4:48 PM PST up reply actions
Again
The trade was obviously not made to increase their level of basketball talent. There were many other factors that went into it. It was probably clear to them that Pau Gasol was not staying with that team in the long term, they weren’t far enough under the cap to sign a good player, their team was saddled with a bunch of terrible contracts (Brian Cardinal, Mike Miller, Damon Stoudamire, Stromile Swift), and their low profitability from being in a small market probably wouldn’t allow for them to go much above the salary cap anyway.
They got a 1st round talent, cut lots of payroll, an unknown big who turned out pretty well, and two future first round picks which you did not mention. I’m not saying it was a great move, but it wasn’t terrible.
Memphis is currently 12 games ahead of us in the standings, currently playing .500 basketball, and they have a roster full of young developing talent. Are we really in the right position to be challenging their “trade acumen”?
"We Deserve"
I didn't mention the future firsts because they have marginal value.
When trading for picks from a perennial title contender, there isn’t much value there.
Memphis is currently 12 games ahead of us in the standings, currently playing .500 basketball, and they have a roster full of young developing talent. Are we really in the right position to be challenging their "trade acumen"?
Yes? They built their team through the draft, Marc Gasol becoming a stud out of the blue, and Zach Randolph’s career resurrection (who is, coincidentally, making almost exactly what Pau is making, but that’s beside the point). So, yes, I think you can criticize a team’s success when it seems more driven by chaos/dumb luck than a solid process. The Pau trade is indefensible. He was locked up through 2011, they still had a relatively low payroll (can’t find the 2007 numbers, but you can see here: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/salaries/grizzlies.html their salary numbers were quite low, and all they added for the next season was Darko on a rookie deal and a bunch of veteran minimum types), and any rush to get rid of him was imagined on their part (and they killed their trade market in the process).
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, it was a pathetic trade. They had cap space, and they just didn’t want to spend any money. Tell me how they are paying Zeebo the same money they would be paying Pau and saying it saved them money.
Gasol is a top 15 player. If you replace Zeebo and Marc with him, they would be a great team. They are mediocre without him.
banned like chris andersen
You can’t just say that they took the money they saved from Pau Gasol to pay Zach Randolph, it didn’t go down like that.
Take a look at the history of how Randolph got there. They made a mistake by signing Darko to a 3-yr contract back in 2007. They traded Darko for QRich last summer, then traded QRich for Zach Randolph after that. It wasn’t like they traded away Pau Gasol and then signed Randolph to a fat contract right after.
"We Deserve"
Well, why did they trade Gasol for monetary purposes, if they later spend the same money saved on getting a much worse player?
banned like chris andersen
Also, Memphis gave back a 2nd round pick in 2010.
So really they only traded up about 15 or so spots (depending on if they make the playoffs).
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:43 PM PST up reply actions
In 2007, the salary numbers were low, but not low enough to be able to sign a really good player (as if any were available on the free agent market anyway). What should they have done, signed somebody like Corey Maggette? We’re a sad example of how well that kind of strategy works.
"We Deserve"
review Thabeet's eval on draftexpress
and there’s significant weaknesses listed, like most offensive skills and hoops i.q. The new assistant coach on GS was hired last year by Thabeet’s agent, i’m pretty sure, to prepare him for the combine, so the team would have had an excellent scouting on him. espn’s recap of the deal said the two teams couldn’t agree to the other players coming with Mayo, so the woe-yrs might have balked at taking on another young project lacking offensive polish. With his restricted minutes this year, he could also have problems defending his position without excessive fouls, and the team already has bigs who like to block shots but have problems containing opponents in man defense.
if the real deal-breaker here was that Don Nelson couldn’t use Thabeet in his “system”, then I’m going to flip my lid
"We Deserve"
Re: if the real deal-breaker here was that Don Nelson couldn’t use Thabeet in his "system",
Nelson is the man who acquired both Manute Bol and Shawn Bradley on purpose. He also gave PT to stiffs with no offensive game like Ewe Blab, Mike Smrek, and Les Jepsen.
I give pressure the reach-around.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Feb 20, 2010 3:16 PM PST up reply actions
No those were actual players for those
of us old enough to remember. Unfortunately, none of them were any good.
by SmittytheCutman on Feb 20, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
You just made up all of those names
Haha, Sleepyfroid does that all the time
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 20, 2010 4:33 PM PST up reply actions
I can't believe the Ws didn't do this trade
It’s downright depressing. They need to end the Ellis era and start building around Curry with guys that can catch-and-shoot and make up for his lack of size on defense.
Mayo would’ve been perfect. If they don’t turn Ellis into Bosh in the offseason, then turning down this offer was a HUGE mistake.
If they don’t turn Ellis into Bosh in the offseason,
0% this happens. Bosh is an unrestricted free agent and would have to agree to a sign and trade to come here.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 20, 2010 3:21 PM PST up reply actions
As I understand it, the Raptors expect that if they can’t keep Bosh (and I don’t think they will), then they at least expect Bosh to do a sign-and-trade to help them out.
Let’s say LeBron stays in Cleveland and Miami does enough to keep Wade. Or, say both of them sign together on the Bulls or Knicks or something, and they don’t have room to sign Bosh as well. Wouldn’t he have to consider all his options?
I’m not saying it’s likely, but crazier things have happened. But, based on what I stated earlier, in all likelihood, it was a big mistake to turn down the Mayo deal.
Make the trade Riley!
Agreed, they must get rid of Ellis. The offense flows much better with the ball in Curry’s hands with his ability to find open shooters and ACTUALLY PASS THE BALL to his teammates. I am Very discouraged this deal didn’t go through because it really plugs some holes… a Curry-Mayo backcourt would have been electric, not to mention appetizing cause both names remind me of the foods.
Hope this means something big is going to go down this summer, go dubs!!
by Brickowski BOOM on Feb 24, 2010 8:20 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Hopefully it gets revisted in the off-season
Like you said, a 2nd AND 3rd overall pick who have not disapointed and thus far been exactly what anticipated for Monta, who we are convinced isn’t the answer, would have been ideal. Draft picks are worth so much these days, perhaps a little overrated, as you can see by the Warriors turning down this deal because if they were offered 2nd and 3rd overall in the next 2 drafts for Monta then they would definately take it.
I’m a little skeptical about this one, I gotta say. There have been rumblings around the Web that the Warriors were the proposers, not Memphis… that hasn’t been confirmed by any means, but I’m wondering if Steinmetz got a bad tip here. I don’t really believe the Grizzles would offer that trade, and I don’t really believe the Warriors, even given their stupidity, would turn it down.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
From what I understand of Memphis, their organization is pretty much like ours. Winning is not the priority. Making money comes before everything else. Even with their relative success this season, there are hardly ever people at their games. Bringing in Monta might be enough to spark interest in that team to get people in the stands, much like Monta is used here.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 20, 2010 5:07 PM PST up reply actions
Except winning is the biggest driver of attendance, and if you’re talking about financial reasons, why would they want to take on Monta’s contract when they have two guys on cheaper rookie contracts?
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
That's not necessarily true.
It’s been shown (by David Berri, mostly) that stars really only increase a team’s road attendance (which the road team gets no part of), and has little impact on their home gate numbers. The best (and really only) way to improve attendance is to win.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
Well then they’re pretty screwed. They’ve won more games already this season than they have in the past 3 years and their average attendance is the second worst in the NBA.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 20, 2010 5:17 PM PST up reply actions
Not necessarily, there’s a large lag factor involved, too. Winning in year X has a large effect on attendance in year X + 1. So their record last year is pulling their attendance down this year – you should expect their success this year to lead to a pretty decent jump in attendance next year. Recession also has some unclear effect on attendance, I’m sure…
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Not in Memphis. They didn’t even sell out their playoff games for 3 years in a row. Yeah, Warrior Fans may be an exception. They come no matter what the record of the team is.
banned like chris andersen
Warrior fans should be quite proud of themselves.
Seriously. Not many fans still support their teams when they’re struggling (hell, a lot don’t support when teams do well). I always took pride in that as a Sonic fan (yes, I’m a refugee). Even when they were terrible, a team with no direction, horrid coaching and a bleak future, the Sonics were always top 12 in the league in attendance percentage.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
Even when they were terrible, a team with no direction, horrid coaching and a bleak future, the Sonics were always top 12 in the league in attendance percentage.
Then how did they become prey for the vultures of Oklahoma?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 20, 2010 8:40 PM PST up reply actions
Well, that's a long story.
Short version is the Howard Shultz ownership group wanted to make a profit, and Clay Bennett was offering the most money. Shultz is a bit of a dumbass, and believed the OKC people when they said they were going to keep the team in Seattle (his ears were clogged with the $90M over market value they paid).
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 8:49 PM PST up reply actions
Shultz is a bit of a dumbass, and believed the OKC people when they said they were going to keep the team in Seattle
Din’t anyone bother to get that promise in writing?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 20, 2010 9:14 PM PST up reply actions
They did actually.
Stern signed off on their “good faith effort”. Of course, him and Bennett being pals (Stern introduced Bennett into the Basketball Hall of Fame while this whole thing was going on), had nothing to do with that.
The “good faith effort” consisted of Bennett asking for a $500M dollar arena (from a city that had just paid for a new NFL and MLB stadium, and to renovate Key Arena ten years ago, at Stern’s behest), and when the city predictably couldn’t afford the tax hikes, said he’d done due diligence, and Stern agreed. The city offered to again renovate the Key Arena, but, this was not good enough. Naturally, upon the team’s exit to The Place That Shall Not Be Named, Stern said if the city renovated Key Arena, Seattle would be a logical destination for an expansion franchise.
What?
Yeah, all that happened.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 21, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
Stern signed off on their "good faith effort".
I’d have got a will not move the team clause , not a good faith effort clause then let Stern suck on that.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 22, 2010 3:04 PM PST up reply actions
The whole point isn’t that winning means you’ll have good attendance numbers (or losing means you’ll have bad attendance numbers), just that your attendance numbers will be a lot better if you’re winning than if you’re losing. That holds true with Memphis, Golden State, the Lakers, the Celtics, and everyone else in between.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
Memphis is to basketball what Jacksonville is to football. It’s a failed experiment, winning wont’ translate to attendance because those towns have way bigger problems right now (no jobs).
I know what I'm talking about, I started at right guard for the 1992 College Park Falcons.
by Johnnysixnut on Feb 22, 2010 7:13 AM PST up reply actions
The whole point is there’s a strong correlation between winning and attendance everywhere. It might be stronger some places, and some places, even when they win, might not have good attendance, but as you win more, attendance increases – that’s a given. Also, one of the main takeaways is that winning is by far the biggest factor on attendance – a star player doesn’t even compare to winning when it comes to driving attendance.
by Missing Barry on Feb 22, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
some places, even when they win, might not have good attendance, but as you win more, attendance increases
Anyone know what the Clips attendance figures are like? Do they still draw when they are losing like the Dubs do?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 22, 2010 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
Mayo is a very intriguing young player in this league and seems to be better long term pairing with Stephen Curry and even a better player than Monta when it’s all said and done.
Mayo’s really just a jumper shooter. I don’t see a reason he’s all that intriguing – his biggest pro was he simply came into the league with an NBA ready body and jump shot. He’s not an amazing athlete, I don’t see what about him pairs better with Curry than a Curry/Ellis pairing, and I don’t see much reason he’s ever going to be a lot better than he is currently. I’d rather have Ellis than just Mayo. Thabeet changes that, though. I’d rather have Mayo + Thabeet than Ellis, and if that deal was really on the table, it was a terrible decision to pass it up.
Also, I really don’t see anyway that deal makes sense for Memphis, which is why I question the rumor.
It makes sense for Memphis.
They must really want to gain from their momentum so far. They are actually winning this year, I don’t see why our forecasts of them should be like they’re bound for a top pick again. They are not looking to dump long term salary anymore.
They’ve been rumored to want Monta for a Loooooong time. Not just this year.
It makes perfect sense that they would approach us. I don’t see how other don’t get this.
At first I wanted them to make this deal, but on second thought this deal is like the girl you call when things aren’t going right with your main squeeze. It’s second at best.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
this deal is like the girl you call when things aren’t going right with your main squeeze. It’s second at best.
Except that getting Mayo and Thabeet is like getting that rebound girl to also bring along her long legged friend for a threesome.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 20, 2010 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
As Rev and Skep pointed out, it doesn’t make sense for them because Mayo + Thabeet is more talent than Monta alone, even regardless of salary considerations.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
Plus they obviously think highly of Thabeet if they took him #2 overall, why would they dump him off in his rookie season just so they can get a small upgrade from Mayo to Monta? That doesn’t make sense.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 10:56 PM PST up reply actions
I’m skeptical of that deal + Thabeet. Seems like a move they wouldn’t do. I guess I’d take it at third thought. Maybe this summer.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Also,....
I don’t think they had put too much stock on what kind of player Marc Gasol was going to turn into and that is why they drafted Thabeet.
Gasol came into the season in better shape than he was in last season and is proving to be a good center, decreasing the need to keep around Thabeet, who is going to be a project.
So packaging Thabeet and Mayo for Ellis isn’t that far fetched.
They were talking about it on the warrior pregame show as if it was a def offer
I would agree that Mayo + Thabeet seems hard to turn down although Thabeet is not the total answer to our need for a dominate big man in the low post…..but he has value for sure.
by Only In Fairfax on Feb 21, 2010 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
I like this trade for the Warriors but I dont see Memphis giving that much young talent up unless we include a future draft pick or something, but if the Warriors pull this off I would be happy, and surprised.
Just wait for a better trade in the offseason.
We know we could probably still do this in the summer right?
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
No Way
not a chance Riley would do this trade. you’ll never get back enough talent to help you be a better team just for Monta. Mayo is a high volume shooter and cant get to the rim as well as Ellis, and Thabeet although taken high in the draft is a project center and would be behind Andris and Turif for playing time. No need for a 3rd center who just takes up space and blocks shots. You have shot blocker in AR, Wright, Turif, and Andris.
A Mayo for Monta straight up would be getting you a true 2 guard but you lose to strengths of Monta. And with Monta’s shot developing like it is, there is no need to trade for a position of strength on your team. Warriors have depth at the PG, SG and C position. Only trade Monta for a position of need.
too bad we’ll never know what if
MayoMonta is a high volume shooter
No need for a 3rd center who just takes up space and blocks shots. You have shot blocker in AR, Wright, Turif, and Andris.
Have you watched us this year? There is very much a need for another capable big man. Honestly, Thabeet might be better than Turiaf right now.
you’ll never get back enough talent to help you be a better team just for Monta
Except in this trade rumor, you do. Mayo + Thabeet are more talent than Monta, by a decent amount….
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 4:40 PM PST up reply actions
Depends on how much you value Mayo. Honestly.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Yeah, I don’t value Mayo that highly as I’ve stated (with evidence) in a few different places, but I still think Mayo + Thabeet is an easy runaway over Monta….
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 10:57 PM PST up reply actions
Have you watched us this year? There is very much a need for another capable big man. Honestly, Thabeet might be better than Turiaf right now.
That right there.
And on this team would have a legit chance for playing time. Also young guys with his size will always be a hot commodity.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
Only trade Monta for a position of need.
In my opinion, a big starting 2-guard is a position of need.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 20, 2010 5:09 PM PST up reply actions
The problem is, Mayo isn’t big for the position either.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
He's a lot bigger than Monta, though.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
He’s got more strength and bulk, for sure but he really isn’t much bigger than Monta. Mayo’s only an inch taller, and has short arms, as well (wingspan is only an inch or two greater than his height, like Monta).
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Where did you find his measurements? I can’t seem to find them anywhere other than his height.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 20, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
Draftexpress.com keeps NBA Draft Combine measurements going back into the ’90’s. Check out their “Features” tab and “Measurements History”.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:25 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, I just found them. Monta was listed 6’2" with a 6’2" wingspan. Mayo was 6’3" with a 6’6" wingspan. Monta is listed by the NBA as 6’3" and Mayo is listed as 6’5". There’s about 20-30 lbs difference between them too. Seems like a fairly large size difference to me.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 20, 2010 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
In terms of bulk/strength, yeah, in terms of height/length, not really. Mayo only has 1.5" on Monta in standing reach, for instance.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
but the real question would be (and I don’t know the answer) is: How does there D compare?
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
I personally don’t think much of Mayo defensively, and a number of others around here have expressed similar opinions. And by “don’t think much” I mean he’s pretty bad defensively.
by Missing Barry on Feb 21, 2010 10:31 PM PST up reply actions
That looks like a dead kangaroo.
And I’m pretty sure it’s ok to beat those.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
Too bad it wasn't a picture of a copy machine.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Wanna know something funny about Monta and Mayo? While they’re very different players — one’s a slasher whose peformances have been all over the map, one’s a shooter who’s posted two essentially identical seasons so far — a comparison of their career numbers is downright eerie.
Monta: .540 TS%, 6.1 REB%, 18.1 AST%, 2.2 STL%, 0.7 BLK%, 13.6 TOV%, 23.9 Usg%
Mayo: .540 TS%, 5.9 REB%, 14.3 AST%, 1.6 STL%, 0.4 BLK%, 12.9 TOV%, 23.1 Usg%
Monta’s got a passing edge and creates a few more defensive events, but you’d be hard-pressed to find more similar career lines. Both guys have scored with average efficiency and fairly high frequency, both guys rebound a bit worse than the average two (Monta’s totals are pace-inflated), both guys pass middlingly for a two (Mayo a tad below middling). Looking at raw plus-minus numbers, it’s clear that Monta’s the better defender; Monta seems to be getting worse while Mayo’s getting better, but Monta still has an edge there. Adjusted plus-minus basically hates both of these guys. In terms of results, they’re very, very similar.
Still, Monta’s the better player. And while Mayo’s cheaper, and it’s possible that he’d be a better fit here — he’s a stable presence who’s willing to defer to other scorers — there’s no real point in swapping a two for a less talented two. People shouldn’t be shedding tears that we failed to turn Monta Ellis into O.J. Mayo. Thabeet was the real missed opportunity here.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
by onlxn on Feb 20, 2010 4:38 PM PST reply actions 6 recs
Also
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhfno4y – This is the type of deal I’d like. Maybe throw in Maggs if they want and get Hunter back to make the payroll more even
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
Hmm… does Thabeet have greater up-side than Brandon Wright? It’s almost a toss up.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
He's less injury prone and bigger
That’s the only difference. And I like the less injuries part
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
I’d rather keep Wright than Thabeet, but if we could add Thabeet, you’d be hard pressed to find a frontline as young and good as ours. Thabeet is looking like a good rebounding, great defense player.
banned like chris andersen
You'd have to be looking for different things.
I don’t think Thabeet will ever have Brandan’s scoring skills, nor do I think Brandan could ever be a DPOY candidate.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Reply meant for Naticus2.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
True, he won’t be DPOY. But he’s a good shot blocker and probably a similar rebounder to Thabeet.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
probably a similar rebounder to Thabeet.
Not sure about that part. First, Thabeet is a C, so he naturally will get more rebounds, not sure if we should positionally adjust that or not. Even if we do, Thabeet’s numbers so far indicate he rebounds better for a C than Wright does for a PF, and with Thabeet’s size, it’s likely that he’ll always be above average in that department, whereas Wright gets pushed around and is a very poor defensive rebounder for a PF (but a good offensive rebounder).
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
Wright’s only injuries have been due to the freak arm yank from getting caught on older Gasol’s jersey. The surgery he got was very successful for a couple other players in the league. I expect him to not be injury prone at all, provided he’s careful not to get his arm caught on jersey’s in the future.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Also, the gigantic difference is offense. Thabeet’s offensive game is very limited.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
But remember Biedrins was considered a project and took 3 years to become what he is, well what he was in the past
This is my city Oakland, California just to be exact il tell you where its at. Pick up a globe pick up a map see San Francisco cross the water right there exact....
- Mista F.A.B.
by TheRealRocWill on Feb 20, 2010 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
Biedrins is still limited offensively. If he had a jumper, just imagine how good he’d be. Thabeet,. assuming he can get his FG% and rebounding near Biedrins, would be great. I find that unlikely. He probably won’t be as good as Biedrins offensively, much less Brandon Wright.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
yea i feel it
my point is just that biedrins improved leaps and bounds over maybe a three year period from potential draft bust to an adequate starter in the NBA … im not saying the same can happen with thabeet, but you just never know especially since he is still learning the game he started playing real late in his life.
This is my city Oakland, California just to be exact il tell you where its at. Pick up a globe pick up a map see San Francisco cross the water right there exact....
- Mista F.A.B.
by TheRealRocWill on Feb 21, 2010 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
If he (Biedrins) could shoot FT's, just imagine how good he'd be.
Geeez Louf*ckingweeez!!!
by scottiepimppen on Feb 22, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
People shouldn’t be shedding tears that we failed to turn Monta Ellis into O.J. Mayo. Thabeet was the real missed opportunity here.
Exactly. I’d rather have Monta, but it’s not a huge advantage, and Thabeet more than makes up the difference.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 4:42 PM PST up reply actions
Why is Monta considered such a better defender than Mayo?
I’ve seen this many placed now. At best they’re even.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 4:53 PM PST up reply actions
Ellis is a better defender
he just reaches too much at times
My Ultimate Realistic Mock Draft for 49ers
1A) Anthony Davis - RT Rutgers
1B) C.J. Spiller - RB/KR/PR Clemson
2) Kareem Jackson - CB Alabama
3) Demaryius Thomas - WR Georgia Tech
4) Mike Johnson - OG Alabama
5) Sean Canfield - QB Oregon State
6) Keaton Kristic - OLB Oregon State
7) Dexter Davis - OLB/DE Arizona State
Largely results… the Grizzlies’ defense falls apart when Mayo’s on the floor, while the Warriors’ defense doesn’t change much when Monta’s on the floor. It’d be a stretch to call that “proof”, but I think it’s telling. The numbers suggest that Monta is an inconsistent and mediocre-at-best defender, but that Mayo is a flat-out bad defender. So far, anyway.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Are you using Adjusted +/-?
Because it seems like they’re about even. Both of their teams are better defensively with them on the bench, and by about the same margin (Mayo actually comes out slightly ahead here).
Basketball Reference isn’t loading for me, so I can’t get their exact DRtg numbers, but I know they’re very close to one another there as well.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
Adjusted +/-
It’s important to note here that Mayo is in his second year in the league, and Monta is in his fifth. It’s very common to see most rookies and sophomores post atrocious Adjusted +/- stats just due to the fact that they’re still learning the NBA game. Monta’s in his fifth year already and he’s never posted good Adjusted +/-.
"We Deserve"
by YaHeard on Feb 20, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Basketball Ref is back up:
Monta: 110 DRtg (career)
Mayo: 112 DRtg (career).
So, yeah, very similar. A good point about Mayo still learning how to play NBA defense. From what I’ve seen (in the NBA and at USC, where he was a lockdown defender), he’s committed to at least attempting to play D, so there’s hope that he’ll improve.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 20, 2010 5:38 PM PST up reply actions
a comparison of their career numbers is downright eerie.
Monta: .540 TS%, 6.1 REB%, 18.1 AST%, 2.2 STL%, 0.7 BLK%, 13.6 TOV%, 23.9 Usg%
Mayo: .540 TS%, 5.9 REB%, 14.3 AST%, 1.6 STL%, 0.4 BLK%, 12.9 TOV%, 23.1 Usg%
Still, Monta’s the better player.
Onlxn, you are a stats guy. You claim how “eerie” it is that the two players have almost identical stats. Then you claim Monta is better. I don’t get it.
Monta is more capable of getting to the rim, so he's harder to defend
is the argument, I guess.
Still- Mayo’s second year stats are a solid improvement over his first year.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 20, 2010 6:24 PM PST up reply actions
What is each's FT rate?
Doesn’t seem like Mayo gets to the cup often and definitely does not shoot enough FT’s.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Monta gets to the line more, but doesn't convert at a very good percentage
Mayo shoots more threes and shoots them efficiently, as well as having a decent percentage from the field. His TS% is 54%, compared to 52.3% for Monta.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 20, 2010 7:47 PM PST up reply actions
Monta has a passing edge and, from what I can tell, an edge on D. That’s enough to put him over the top, as I see it.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Yes, Finally a statement I completely agree with.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Chris Wallace
My opinion on this has been well documented in various threads over the past few days, so no need to repeat that.
Memphis is probably the only team in the league where the Warriors have the front office advantage, so I have to imagine any deal we make with them is going to be a good one.
wow
you all really think OJ is a better player then monta… interesting
good thing you guys don’t decide who gets traded lol
Actually, most of us don't think that OJ>Monta
We think that they are pretty close in talent with a slight edge to Monta, probably.
Mayo + Thabeet, on the other hand, is a no brainer.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 20, 2010 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
Not really
Thabeet best skill is sitting on the bench! He is terrible! Garbage! Worthless! Again it would be pretty much Mayo for Ellis.
Except for the fact that when Thabeet plays, he blocks more shots than anyone in the NBA per minute, and rebounds well per minute (so far in his limited sample size, at least). If you can rebound and play D like that….well, that’s a useful player.
by Missing Barry on Feb 21, 2010 9:53 AM PST up reply actions
And with how were building a team, a high scoring, fast paste system with a C who clogs up the lane, blocks shots, rebound, and can deliver the outlet pass would improve said team greatly.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
Thabeet can only do one of those things
Block shots! He doesn’t clog the middle he actually has a very difficult time moving around so he doesn’t fit in a fast paced environment, he doesn’t rebound particuarly well, and he’s not that good of a passer either.
he doesn’t fit in a fast paced environment
He’s fairly athletic, he’d be able to start the break. I don’t know where people got the idea that C’s are important for running teams – whether your C is slow or fast, he’s rarely involved in the break, or even has a major role in the secondary break, anyways. It’s not like we’re losing anything in transition going from Biedrins or Turiaf to Thabeet. I don’t see a problem with Thabeet in a fast paced environment at all (other than maybe he sucks at outletting the ball?).
he doesn’t rebound particuarly well
He’s been a pretty decent rebounder thus far, and I see no reason to think he won’t continue to be above average for a C with his size, height, athleticism and the simple fact that he spends most of his time near the hoop…..
he’s not that good of a passer either.
Well, can’t argue with that, other than you might be making an uderstatement.
by Missing Barry on Feb 21, 2010 10:35 PM PST up reply actions
I haven’t seen a single person here say Mayo is better than Monta? A number of us think Monta isn’t much better than Mayo, but as far as I can tell, we all do think Monta is better. We just think Mayo + Thabeet is better than Monta.
by Missing Barry on Feb 20, 2010 10:59 PM PST up reply actions
$$$$$$$$
Keep in mind, the biggest issue here might be money. Ellis’s contract stinks.
Even I, the most hateful of Monta haters, wouldn’t say that Mayo is better than Monta right now. I would definitely take him over Monta for this team, but that doesn’t mean that he is a better player.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 21, 2010 2:04 AM PST up reply actions
Why in the blue moon didn't management take this trade?
They save money for awhile and it infuses more young talent to go well with what we have already. OJ Mayo, though not Monta, would provide an adequate replacement. Hasheem is already a good player to provide minutes for rebounding and defense, especially when Andris gets tired.
Memphis gets a scoring threat and it moves Monta closer to home. Everyone wins. I don’t get it.
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
Everyone wins. I don’t get it.
That’s why I doubt it was really offered and turned down. Either it had more conditions or never even existed.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 21, 2010 11:04 AM PST reply actions
I don’t think this trade was proposed. I think this rumor exists because the Warriors circulated it. When Monta hears it (and I believe he already has), he will perceive it as a vote of confidence that the Warriors didn’t take a very good deal involving him.
Just what we needed to do, show more confidence in the guy that threw away an entire season on a bone-headed moped ride after receiving a big contract. If anyone needs a vote of confidence right now, it’s Biedrins.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 21, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
It would have made us a lot more traditional
We could start Biedrins and Turiaf, then have Thabeet and Tolliver back them up. Morrow, Mayo and Curry on the floor at the same time would be extremely dangerous, all are great shooters. I like how Mayo plays under control too.
Our lineup would look a little like this for the rest of the season:
Biedrins | Thabeet
Turiaf | Tolliver
Morrow | George
Mayo |
Curry | CJ
I assume Maggette won’t play much from now till the end of the season.
Formally known as PFortyy.
http://www.youtube.com/user/XeroEnt
Watch my Warriors vids and subscribe!
missing barry
you know per minute stats cant be trusted, but i understand where you are coming from.
I just think you are banking too much on Thabeet because many players his size get injured quick, not to mention his salary isn’t exactly cheap.
and if he isn’t getting that many minutes for the grizz i don’t wanna see what nellies gonna do.
i like thabeet as a second C, but not in a trade for Ellis who also opens the floor for players like morrow and curry, just having him on the floor means better looks for them (if he passes). plus i think were in need of a starting center more, and healthy players :)
you know per minute stats cant be trusted
Per minute stats, in general, can be trusted. When guys start getting more minutes per game, their per minute stats tend to either stay as good or get even better. That said, with Thabeet specifically, we might not have a big enough sample yet, so that is a fair point at least.
by Missing Barry on Feb 21, 2010 10:37 PM PST up reply actions
Terrible trade
The GS warrriors strength is slahsing and shooting. we already have good shooters and Monta is our best Slasher. Swapping him for Mayo reliqueshes our ability to score in the paint significantly. It’s also becomes more critical that we hold ellis until we have a replacemnt for points in the paint. Ideally a low post player. Certainly, maggette and Randolph when healthy could carry the slaher load but Ellis is one of the best in the league in this area. Azuibuke could play next to curry and in my opinion give us close to the same skill set as we’d recience from Mayo.
Thabust is just that. I never like him because he appears to be too slow to be a good rebounder and a good defender. Of course he can block shots but in the NBA where you have illegal defense, and further spacing, defensive rotations become so crucial. I don’t see Thabeet ever being a good player in this league. Personally, i wouldn’t waste a roster spot on him.
Point being, we lose more than we gain in this trade. Ellis actually has a very reasonble contract for a star, arguably all star.
I wouln’t have done this deal with out Memphis delivering this years 1st rounder in addition to Mayo.
I wish we had all of these Monta/Mayo/Thabeet posts in one thread, but they are kinda all over the place. There are good pro and con points to this trade proposal in these threads. It seems like the stat-heads in general are against this idea, but the stats posted above seem to state that the two are pretty equal. Now, I’m not a fan of Hollinger, but the guy is most certainly a stat-head, and here is his take (trying to post link, but it does not seem to be working):
Specifically: “Supposedly the Memphis Grizzlies offered O.J. Mayo and Hasheem Thabeet to the Warriors for Ellis….What we do know are two things: (1) It made no sense that Memphis offered this, and (2) it made no sense that the Warriors turned it down….Either way the Warriors would have come away with a better roster and a better cap situation. Mayo hasn’t been quite as productive as Ellis, but in terms of PER he’s not far off. He’s also two years younger, a better defender, and a better fit with Stephen Curry. The more I look at it, the more perplexed I am. I have no idea why Memphis offered this trade, and no idea why Golden State turned it down.”
Me neither.
Honestly, I think most of the people you would consider “stat heads” on this site would agree with Hollinger’s assesment. At least that’s the impression I’ve gotten, and that’s basically my stance exactly. I have a hard time believing Memphis actually offered that, and if they did, then our front office is definitely run by idiots for turning it down for the reasons Hollinger game up with. I’ll also note that generally Hollinger’s statistics work sucks.
by Missing Barry on Feb 23, 2010 12:19 AM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Golden State Of Mind
Related FanShots on Golden State Of Mind
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
