Josh Howard, anyone?
by JustSomeName on Feb 4, 2010 1:58 PM PST
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PrintI know what you're thinking, why in the world would we want to pick up Josh Howard when he's only averaging 12 ppg and a combined 5 assists/rebounds per game this year. He should be in the "prime" of his career at age 29 and not on the downslide.
BUT hear me out. We all know that Maggette is on a tear as of late and has been wrecking havoc on the opposing team's defense on a nightly basis. But I also hear alot of people on here saying that we should sell high on Maggette since he has 3 more years on his contract and will inevitiably be on the downslide of his career after putting up career numbers this season. I have to agree that we should sell high on him while we can and the Mavs seem like a perfect trade partner to do so. Howard is currently making about 10.2 mil this year with a team option (that we would NOT be picking up due to his performance this season), so that is basically an expiring. And we'd clear Maggette's horrid contract off our books and could possibly have 10 more million in expiriings this offseason to possibly pick up a big name free agent OR further entice Larry Ellison to buy the team. I'm proposing a straight up trade, the numbers work fine. The Mavs and Mark Cuban seems like a team that would do something by the trade deadline to further solidfy their chances of winning a championship this year and Maggette would be an awesome sixth man for them off the bench. As for our side, Howard seems like he could use a change of scenery and he could possibly have a good second half of the season when he comes over here to Golden State. What do you guys think?
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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maggette 4 howard?
I’m no board. Free agent, but we could match offers
I think we could get better for Maggette. His contract is impossible to trade though.
by Owner on Feb 4, 2010 2:13 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
LOL.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 4, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Howard’s not worth much, but his expiring deal would be. It’d be a worthwhile trade, and I’d frankly throw in CJ if that’d get it done. I kinda doubt the Mavs would pull the trigger, though.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
I think they might.
Cuban is getting a little scared and he might pull the trigger to get another 20 point scorer.
I think I would do it. Howard fits our style better, and he could be the new Jackson(in a good way).
what "good way?.....
i don’t know if that is possible…
Let's face it
Maggette never was and never will be part of our future plans, so might as well sell high on him now than sell low on him later, right?
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
Why are we trading Maggette?
For this “cap space”? We need to stop talking about knee jerk trade ideas. Let the team get healthy, bring in our upcoming draft pick, and see how the pieces fit together. And I disagree that Maggette can’t be part of our future. I’d rather have him than Howard (you really want another rotten egg like him?) for basketball and image reasons. Theres no way we bring in a top level free agent, we can only hope to bring in a second tier free agent by overpaying (a la Maggette, though I would argue he is definitley earning his contract these days.) Since we already have that guy, and we aren’t making the playoffs this year, why just throw him away for cap space if we aren’t going to be upgraded as a team resultantly? I know its hard since we say the same thing every year, but just be patient.
This isn't knee jerk at all
This is the opposite of knee jerk- it doesn’t have our current success in mind, only our future success. The removal of Maggette’s contract is extremely necessary to improve our team for the future.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 4, 2010 3:25 PM PST up reply actions
No.
Formally known as PFortyy.
http://www.youtube.com/user/XeroEnt
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He should be in the “prime” of his career at age 29 and not on the downslide.
29 is actually past prime for most players. Yes, many are very productive long after and it does vary from individual to individual, but when looking at all NBA players over the last couple decades, prime is about 25. The decline until 30 is usually very limited at first, but it does tend to happen. After 30 it can really begin to turn — and fast. That Howard seems to have shown this turn already may be an indication to stay away. Perhaps he’s just having an off year, not fitting in, something. But in terms of the future of the team, I don’t think I’d want him to be part of my plans.
Now if it was just about shedding salary…
After 30 it can really begin to turn — and fast.
Oh hey, Corey Maggette is 30 – turning 31 this year. We have him locked up well into his declining years and considering his propensity for injury I think the best course of action would be to shed his salary.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 4, 2010 4:22 PM PST up reply actions
Well
If we WERE to take Josh Howard, we’d only see him in a Warriors uni until April, then team option, which we would NOT pick up, and all of a sudden, we have 10 million off the books and not have to watch Corey Maggette decline for the next 3 years. Sounds like a great plan to me!
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
And then what?
Who do we overpay then? Will he be better then Maggette? Why is this money off the books such a great thing? Does it score 20 ppg, 6reb, over 20 PER?
by buky on Feb 4, 2010 5:23 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Trade him
10 mill in cap space we desperatly need, I am down for that. As far as who we could get next year, we dont need to over pay anyone, we can sign Scola for MLE or get a cheap guy like Hakim Warrick or a hustler player like Louis Amundson. There are plenty of options, I know some of you might say why would anyone come here or we would need to over pay for a good player. Not true. Some guys want starting opportunity like Allen Iverson or a longterm contract. We can go after a guy like Travis Outlaw
who could play offense and defense. Resign a guy like Raja Bell for cheap. I would be get rid of Maggette contract if we could sign to guys like Outlaw and Scola instead of him.
Waaaarriors
+1
We could go the Rocket way, where our team is much better than the sum of our parts. I’d rather take that 10 million and rebalance this really unbalanced roster. There’s ALOT we could do with that extra 10 mil…
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
We could go the Rocket way, where our team is much better than the sum of our parts
Our team is already better than the sum of our parts. D leaguers are not that good no matter how you add them up.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 4, 2010 7:09 PM PST up reply actions
we can sign Scola for MLE
We could offer Scola the MLE. It is important to remember that offering a player a contract is not the same thing as signing him. Recall that the reason Maggette took more than the MLE to sign is that at that price, he could have gone to an actual good team.
by jae on Feb 4, 2010 6:38 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd LOVE this trade to happen
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yhk36qx
I could see the Mavs wanting this also, helping them make a push to be a better playoff team.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
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Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Nah
we could probably get a late first round draft pick for CJ on his own. Maybe we do a trade like Houston, Memphis and orlando did last year. Cj’s gone at the end of the season, and he seems to have regressed from last year ( he’s maxed out probably), nice to get a decent piece for him.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 4, 2010 6:34 PM PST up reply actions
Bad trade unless
Cohen sells and Rowell and Nellie are gone. All the cap space in the world isn’t gonna get us an elite player to come here with all the disfunction of our head coach and FO.
Cohen doesn’t own the team. Chris Cohan does. Let’s make sure we’re insulting the right person, so as not to implicate any innocent Cohens in the process.
by jae on Feb 4, 2010 7:34 PM PST up reply actions
Thanks for the clarification
Chris and I can sleep better now!
why in the world would we want to pick up Josh Howard
We do owe Dallas for pwning them in the playoffs and the 29 year old Ho seems like a cool cat so yeah let’s give them our human bowling ball, it’s not like we can get much worse anyway.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 4, 2010 7:14 PM PST reply actions
How? Howard has been terrible this year and Maggette has been playing at an all-star level. It’d be nice to get out of Maggs’ contract, but let’s not underestimate how good he’s been this year and how bad Howard has been this year.
Just for a fun Wins Produced comparision: Howard has racked up an impressive -.8 WP this year, good for dead last on the Mavs, while Maggs has put up 4.8 WP, best on the Warriors. Pretty massive difference in quality there.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Im hoping he’s referring to Dwight Howard.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 4, 2010 8:54 PM PST up reply actions
That would explain it. Better assume that’s the case, as it’s always for the best to take someone else’s stance as seriously as possible before dismissing it and I can only take that seriously if he’s referring to Dwight.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
tell me this
Would you have done the trade before the season started when EVERYONE was hating on Maggettes ball hogging and contract.
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 4, 2010 10:55 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah Howard hasn’t had a good year and Maggette is having a good year. I guess I’m expect howard to play like he did in previous years and same with Maggs. Yes Maggette has been playing great but he wasn’t always playing like this. Keep in mind lots of people would have crazy stats if they played for the Warriors
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 4, 2010 10:54 PM PST up reply actions
Keep in mind lots of people would have crazy stats if they played for the Warriors
How do you figure? We don’t really have great distributors on this team (to put it gently) and even if we play fast, it doesn’t give Maggs the ability to score efficiently while Howard can’t buy a bucket. Maggs is outperforming Howard and it has nothing to do with being on the Warriors.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
You think Monta would put up those stats on any other team?
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 4, 2010 11:04 PM PST up reply actions
Monta’s numbers haven’t really been that good this year. He’s scoring a lot, but he’s not scoring efficiently. His A/TO ratio isn’t good, and his rebounding has been okay at best. He’s doing a lot, but his numbers aren’t really that good.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Tell that to the people that think his numbers are good
Personally I don’t think he is efficient at all.
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 5, 2010 10:07 AM PST up reply actions
Monta’s numbers haven’t really been that good
Well do you want to watch games or add up numbers? He’s a baller who’s doing some great stuff on the court and I appreciate it. If he’s not making the correct stats then perhaps don’t read the lines.? This team is going no where right now so we might as well enjoy the show.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 5, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
You think Monta would put up those stats on any other team?
What you mean by “stats” is almost entirely “points per game”. The two are not synonyms.
Allowing someone to shoot freely with no consequence will tend to increase the point totals, but it doesn’t tend to help scoring efficiency. Points per game is the statistic where Monta looks impressive. In no other way is he putting up “stats” that would marvel anyone.
by jae on Feb 5, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
Again Ellis' stats don't impress me.
He is not efficient at all but his biggest supporters will point out to his stats. Just saying we can’t judge everything based on STATS.
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 5, 2010 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
Just saying we can’t judge everything based on STATS.
We can’t judge everything, but we can judge quite a bit if we use statistics wisely. If we just look at numbers more or less blindly, not aware of what does and does not have greater influence on winning games, we may as well ignore statistics altogether. Unfortunately, most people don’t actually use statistics. They use per-game numbers generally and points per game in particular.
Monta’s stats don’t suggest he’s having a particularly good year. They suggest that he’s dragging the team to a record where they’d win a bit more than quarter of their games if he was their biggest minute “producer”. Amazingly spot on the actual record.
Monta’s supporters will point to his scoring, then when anyone notes that he’s been a ball hog and that the scoring in context of his efficiency, turnovers, etc isn’t impressive, they’ll spout “who else could do it” as if it’s Monta or nothing and he’s almost completely at fault, that he has to be a ball hog or the Warriors might lose 75% of their games or something like that. Hey, wait a second!
Hey, wait a second!
Haha, You just noticed that everyone’s hurt and Montay is playing with D leagers, a rookie and rejects? Now how do you arrange the stats to show that ? Do you handicap them to adjust for team-mates quality or lack thereof ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 5, 2010 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
I’m not denying that Maggs is playing better than Howard right now but I don’t believe Maggs is a better player than Josh Howard. If Howard goes back to how he played before..but who knows maybe hes over the hill already. Maggs contract has to go
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 4, 2010 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
If they both play at their career averages, Maggs is still better. Howard is the better defender when he’s playing at his best, rebounding is about a wash, Maggs is (get ready for a shock) the more willing passer, but he turns it over a bit more, and Maggs is the vastly superior scorer.
Again, I’m more than willing to lose his contract, but it’s pretty unfair to ignore that he’s been a very good player for his whole career.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Maggette is what he is
He has almost been great at getting to the line but he’s been called a black hole many times. For most of his career he was selfish and only wanted to score himself. Anyway its just my opinion that I think we would be better off with Josh Howard in the WIn/Loss column
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 5, 2010 10:10 AM PST up reply actions
Maggs actually passes more than Howard over the course of their careers, so to say we’d be better with Howard because Maggs is a blackhole ignores that Howard doesn’t even pass as much as Maggette.
Howard at his very best versus Maggs this season and the edge still goes to Maggette. I don’t see why we need to attack Maggs for playing very well. He’s been all-star good this year and since both guys are roughly the same age, expecting Maggette’s production to go down (reasonable) and Howard’s production to get radically better (not at all reasonable) seems like an unfounded criticism of a useful player.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
All-Star level?
How is Maggette playing at an all-star level? Granted he has been playing well this season but he is still the second leading scorer on a 13 win team.
Even with Howard having a down year, I would make the trade in a heartbeat. We have the rest of the season to see if Howard can regain his form and if not, he is off the books at the end of the season.
Maggette is a nice player, unfortunatley he has a bad contract and therefore, if we can move him, we might as well.
The reason you do this trade has nothing to do with Josh Howard
it’s just to get rid of Maggette’s atrocious contract.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 5, 2010 4:26 PM PST up reply actions
That's not the reason for this trade.
Maggette>Howard, its just Howard provides us with cap relief and Maggette’s contract ain’t getting smaller and he ain’t getting better, if anything he’ll be on the downslide of his career after this season
WARRIORS BASKETBALL!!! Patiently waiting for a title...I may be waiting for a long time...
I', not opposed to Howard for Maggs
BUT, I wouldn’t do it cause if did it Monta would go insane. Maggs is the last guy he’s close with and he’s a good role model for him. A hardworking honest guy unlike Jack plus he’s pretty loyal. The only way I say we trade Maggs is in the offseason if we draft a Evan Turner or Wesley Johnson, even then I’d want a veteran type guy that can teach Monta. Not an influence like Howard, if Maggs goes Monta would probably follow him. That’s my fear
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
if Maggs goes Monta would probably follow him. That’s my fear
That is definitely a worry. It’s hard to tell Monta that we’re committed to winning and then deal away a very capable player in Maggs for an expiring contract. We’d have to go out and do something big to make up for losing Maggette if we don’t want Monta to have a heartattack.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
get rid of Maggs
this sounds great! get rid of maggs outrageous contract. I cringe every time he lowers his head and drives into the lane, expecting a foul call. I could care less who we get, just send maggs and its a good trade in my book
What you forget
Is that that money wont go to anything, it’ll just die like the rest of our expirings as long as Cohan is here. He just wants to save his own money
Rookie: "Why did you bench me?"
Nellie: "You're a rookie"
It'll help us get Ellison possibly...
and if that’s even a chance, i’m down.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
That probably is true
but it just gives us more flexibility.
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Feb 5, 2010 10:13 AM PST up reply actions
you can throw those fantasy basketball stats out the window
It’s a small sample size to be looking at anyway. Look at the body of his career and the fact that he’s only 29 years old and on a short contract.
Do the trade for Maggette and get rid of that ridiculous contract.
Pick up Howard’s team option and use next year to figure out whether he really is on a decline or if these last couple months have just been a slump.
If Howard joins our team, he’ll automatically become the best defensive and rebounding wing we have, something we desperately need. He can only make our team better.
It makes so much sense to make this trade.
"We Deserve"
you can throw those fantasy basketball stats out the window
Thank you !
I’m so sick of people using stats to justify any opinion they have … Stop playing fantasy and learn the game !!! Statistics are a conclusion, not an indicator and an argument … high impact, low explanation …
If you don’t believe me tell me if the Houston Rockets play reflects completely in their statistics ?
Maggette has had an efficient but not transcending year so far. He’s not someone who will take us over the top, hence he is tradable. Howard doesn’t bring much more to the table than maggette for us, this trade only makes sense financially …
Since our FO is useless they would probably be saving themselves some money and will not do much to upgrade the team, so what does this trade realistically do for us ???? not much …. whether it happens or not ….
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 5, 2010 9:48 AM PST up reply actions
I’m so sick of people using stats to justify any opinion they have … Stop playing fantasy and learn the game !!!
I’m so sick of fools who don’t understand statistics believing that their own ignorance somehow invalidates statistical analysis. I’m further sick of the repugnant attitude that people who understand statistics don’t somehow understand the game of basketball (this seems to be a variant on the “you need to watch games” meme that somehow those of us who actually employ statistics to further our understanding don’t watch games as well).
If you don’t believe me tell me if the Houston Rockets play reflects completely in their statistics ?
The Rockets’ record actually very, very much reflects their players’ statistics. You seem to be confusing your appreciation of statistics (which appears limited) with an actual understanding of statistical modeling.
And actually, the Rockets record was predictable before the season by looking at player stats. How do I know this? Because I actually did predict it.
Doubt me? Check out my pre-season preview. I predicted that the Rockets would win 43 games based on statistics. Presently, they’re on pace to win 43.75 games.
I also predicted that nay-sayers would come up with excuses for how this still doesn’t mean that conventional wisdom is wrong. (I was figuring that those who don’t understand statistics would just say it’s “teamwork” or “chemistry”.) That prediction seems to be coming true as well.
by jae on Feb 5, 2010 10:35 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I think he mixed up a letter there...
See, when he was talking about explaining how the Rockets aren’t good without stars, he made a typo.
Whew, glad we got through that confusion.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 5, 2010 11:36 AM PST up reply actions
I’m further sick of the repugnant attitude that people who understand statistics don’t somehow understand the game of basketball
The understanding of basketball is more than a collection of numbers, sure the stats can be collected and categorized till we go blind from reading them and deaf from hearing how great they are but in the real world no matter what the stats say if Baron’s grandma lives in LA and he wants to play there there’s nothing the stats can do about it? It’s a game played by real people not by numbers, that’s where the understanding should focus.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 5, 2010 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
The understanding of statistics is more than a collection of numbers
Just because you didn’t/don’t like math/statistics doesn’t mean it’s not applicable to reality. Go ask any engineer or scientist about how “useful” statistics are in predicting and creating things that are far, far more important than an NBA players’ basketball performance. We’re talking about studies that made computers and the internet possible, car manufacturing, disease prevention, etc.
Go tell the people working on cancer cures and prevention that their statistics are useless because their subjects are mice and not humans. See what kind of reaction you get.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 5, 2010 2:20 PM PST up reply actions
It’s a game played by real people not by numbers, that’s where the understanding should focus.
I’m not aware that you were ever appointed arbiter of how the game should be studied. I certainly didn’t vote for you. Your view may be all you are interested in or capable of understanding, but those of us with enough neurons to form a synapse can decide for ourselves what we find interesting and what we don’t find interesting.
It is a game played by people. And there are different ways to record what happened and analyze what happened. The gestalt “just watch/understand” means allowing yourself to fall victim to every single way that people fool themselves, and there are plenty of them. I’m much happier taking multiple avenues to investigate something, open to the notion that conventional wisdom has fooled us and open to the notion that we can get a different and perhaps deeper understanding by using the tools available to us including objective record keeping and analysis of these records.
I don’t like to applaud and encourage ignorance of the type you seem to want to constrain yourself to. Your personal dislike or functional inability to deal with numbers doesn’t seem to have imparted you with any particularly deep understanding of the game.
by jae on Feb 5, 2010 3:19 PM PST up reply actions
Your personal dislike or functional inability to deal with numbers doesn’t seem to have imparted you with any particularly deep understanding of the game.
It’s made me understand that where Baron’s grandma lived is more important than the minutiae of everyone’s numbers.
Now numbers are fine when nailing down something with no human variables but as soon as a personal interpretation gets involved they fall apart. I love the order and definitiveness of numbers but I also know their limitations.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 5, 2010 6:34 PM PST up reply actions
Numbers are worthless because Baron Davis wanted to play in Los Angeles
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 5, 2010 11:52 PM PST up reply actions
Numbers are worthless because Baron Davis wanted to play in Los Angeles?
Haha, Yep, It’s like the jazz, if you need an explanation then you won’t understand it.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 6, 2010 11:41 AM PST up reply actions
I’m so sick of fools who don’t understand statistics believing that their own ignorance
What !!!
I’l explain to you once more since you’re more infatuated with your own predictions than actually understanding my foolish opinion …
I did not dismiss all statistics, there are many probabilities which live up to their predictions …
However justifying constantly opinions on stats is also forgetting that statistics do not live up to their prediction or indication 100 % percent of the time … how’s that for a stat ? every rule has its exception(s) …
Players like Battier or Landry or Scola to name a few … do not reflect their impact in their statistics …. Intangibles influence statistics and not vice versa … that’s why they are called " intangibles " …
So the Rockets “play” ( and not their record, learn how to read ! ) is not completely seized by their stats …. duuuhhhhhh
By the way the thread was about Maggette for Howard and my statistical statement was about analyzing the value of this trade ?
so what does your stat say ? If Dallas acquires Maggette they will win 2.1876392 games more ? wow I’m sure looking forward to that outcome !!!!
This season has really gotten long and boring for all the part time statistical philosophers…
100 % chance of an answer ??? hahahaha …
Players like Battier or Landry or Scola to name a few … do not reflect their impact in their statistics …. Intangibles influence statistics and not vice versa … that’s why they are called " intangibles " …
This is not true. Well, some people might call what they bring to the table “intangible” but good stats do quantify how good they’ve been.
However justifying constantly opinions on stats is also forgetting that statistics do not live up to their prediction or indication 100 % percent of the time … how’s that for a stat ? every rule has its exception(s)
Yep, but they have a lot better success rate than the “common sense” junk that gets thrown out a lot of the time. The predictive value of statistics is really, really good.
so what does your stat say ? If Dallas acquires Maggette they will win 2.1876392 games more ? wow I’m sure looking forward to that outcome !!!!
Actually, Maggette has produced 5 more wins than Howard this year, who has been terrible while Maggs has been great.
100 % chance of an answer ??? hahahaha …
You got that one right.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
This is not true. Well ....
What kind of an answer is that ? You’re not even assertive about your own opinion ….haha
Look up the definition of intangibles , I’m not sure you understand it …
So if stats have a better success rate you’re just going to rely on them alone ???
Maggette produced 5 more wins than howard …. what the hell does that mean ? … different teams, schemes, players, teams played etc….. comparing apples and oranges … wow common sense is really useless … lol
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 5, 2010 4:23 PM PST up reply actions
http://www.wagesofwins.com/AllTeamMid0910.html
Here’s a list of the statistical contributions of every player in the NBA by Wins Produced. It is not linked to actual records, but does successfull quantify contributions to the point where it guesses records remarkably well and predicted them well before the year started. Look at real numbers and you will find that Landry and Scola’s efficient scoring and rebounding certainly are quantified and definitely are tangibly connected to team wins. It’s been quantified.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
While we’re at it, here’s a list of Landry’s “intangible” contributions:
-A fantastic TS% of .623 (average is .540) all while posting 21.7 points per 36 minutes.
-His rebounding is actually down a bit this year, putting up a mediocre 7.1.
-He blocks 1.1 shots per 36 minutes.
-The Rockets are a much better offensive team when he is on the floor, but see a similar drop in defense, though he is still a net positive when he’s on the court (outscoring opponents by .4 points per 100 possessions when he’s playing vs .1 when he isn’t)
Landry is an excellent offensive player who tends to hurt the Rockets with his mediocre D. Is that tangible enough yet?
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Is that tangible enough yet
Oh my god !
You really have to learn how to read people’s posts before you answer ….
I am talking about intangibles and you ask me if these are enough " tangibles " …
Statistics are tangible that is exactly why I am pointing out the importance of intangibles !!!!!!! duuuuuuuhhhhhh " Intangibles " !!! do you know how to read ?
Intangibles, something a statistic cannot take into account, leadership, energy, injuries, chemistry with future teammates etc….etc….. etc …….
Intangible is something with no empirical evidence that’s why it is not tangibly accountable …. damn before you discuss statistics learn english, it would be a start !
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 5, 2010 8:17 PM PST up reply actions
So, basically, Landry’s intangibles are completely unexplainable and don’t seem to have a meaningful effect on his on the court performance? I need something that might explain how all the quantifiable evidence that suggests Carl Landry is a good player and effects the outcome of basketball games as such doesn’t tell the whole story. What else does he have and what does this actually do?
Wins Produced accurately predicts team wins. The numbers show this. What are Landry’s intangibles?
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
So, basically, Landry’s intangibles are completely unexplainable ...
Forget it man, I am a 7 seven year linguistics student and have never seen anybody with such poor understanding of vocabulary ….
Landry’s intangibles are explainable !
I mentioned they are not accountable …. Huge difference !
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 6:47 AM PST up reply actions
Let’s just go through these point by point:
I am talking about intangibles and you ask me if these are enough " tangibles " …
Yep, because I’m trying to demonstrate how much of the story his stats tell. It’s a very complete story.
Statistics are tangible that is exactly why I am pointing out the importance of intangibles !!!!!!! duuuuuuuhhhhhh " Intangibles " !!! do you know how to read ?
You haven’t pointed out the importance of intangibles. Not once. You said they exist and are important, but never even sort of explained how. I gave expamples of Carl Landry’s stats telling you pretty much exactly what he brings to the table. What more is there?
Intangibles, something a statistic cannot take into account, leadership, energy, injuries, chemistry with future teammates etc….etc….. etc …….
And yet the statistics can still very accurately predict wins from one year to the next. What’s the point of intangibles, really? If you build a team that fills every position with statistically great players, you’ll build a great team. If you build a team full of statistically terrible players, you’ll build a terrible team.
Intangible is something with no empirical evidence that’s why it is not tangibly accountable …. damn before you discuss statistics learn english, it would be a start !
Things with no empirical evidence aren’t called “intangibles.” They’re called “fictional.”
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Feb 5, 2010 8:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m trying to demonstrate how much of the story his stats tell
Wow, you’re really on your own tangent …….
I actually wrote that statistics are a very good indicator …. for the hundredth time, learn how to READ …..
I actually pointed out what intangibles can be, but then again you would know if you carefully read it …. instead of thinking of your own answer the whole time which is incoherent with the comments you are answering ….
Very ironic coming from someone obsessed with the “precision” of statistics …
So If a team is rated number one “statistically” it means they will win the title ? And if this is true, doesn’t it defeat the point of actually watching the season ?
I think that next year we should appoint the Nba champion based on statistics alone and not lose time by actually playing and watching the games !
Lack of empirical evidence is called fictional ?? what ? How do you expect people to give your stat views credibility when your usage of words is a travesty …
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 7:37 AM PST up reply actions
Dude. Chill out?
Cap’n Hack is one of the smartest and most respected posters on this board. His posts are consistently thoughtful, respectful, and fair. There’s nothing he wrote that warrants taking so personally. If you have a compelling counterpoint to make, make it, as clearly and concisely as possible, and spare everyone the hysteria.
Meanwhile, as long as you’re harping on English usage: the period is your friend. And if you insist on using ellipses instead, keep in mind that an ellipsis only requires three dots — not 4, 5, or 7. And don’t put needless spaces in between the end of a sentence and the punctuation mark. It makes you look silly.
There will be no extra point!
as long as you’re harping on English usage: the period is your friend
My lack of structure has no influence on the “definition” of a word … and following academic codes of how an ellipsis should be written ( which is quite archaic ) has no barring on substance ……………. ( 16 ellipsis )
By the way an Ellipsis is a greek word which means omission and corresponds to the preference of the user before it was standardised for robots who can’t function without a pattern to follow …
A space between the end of the sentence and the punctuation mark, makes me look silly … hahahaha … I really didn’t know such a grand mistake would have such an influence on my perception …
And to Cap’n hack, my bad if you considered me disrespectful ! It really was not my intention, I’m a typical warrior fan who gets passionate and sick of these long boring seasons we must go through …
The fact that we both answered so much to each other maybe means we had something to talk about !! look at the bright side of my hysteria !!!
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
Carl Landry's strengths are well documented in the statistics.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 5, 2010 11:53 PM PST up reply actions
So his stats account for how much he will hustle ? Or how much one play sways the momentum of a game ? Or whether he will get injured ? or get along with his next head coach ? …..
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
So his stats account for how much he will hustle ?
“Hustle” tends to show up in things like rebounds, steals, blocks, and adjusted plus-minus.
Or how much one play sways the momentum of a game ?
Are you arguing that Landry’s good plays tend to sway the momentum of games more than good plays by other players? I mean, feel free to try to make that case, but without numbers to support it you’re unlikely to persuade anyone that you’re not talking completely out of your [hat].
Or whether he will get injured ?
Well, the best predictor of future injuries is past ones. If you’re talking about two players with similar health histories, body types and ages, it’s usually best to assume that their injury risks are more or less equal. Are you arguing that Landry’s “intangibles” make him less likely to get injured than other similar players?
or get along with his next head coach ? …
Again, the post you’re replying to was talking about Landry’s strengths. Are you arguing that Landry has an unusually strong ability to get along with coaches? I mean, again, it’s possible, but rather than just throw it out there, why not try to find a relevant quote from one of his coaches? Most of the people on this board, Cap’n Hack included, are open to all kinds of evidence — statistical and anecdotal. What people tend to be less open to are totally unsupported assertions followed by hysterical gnashing of teeth when anyone dares challenges them.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 6, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
I used Landry 1st as an example at the very start, the same way I could have used another player …
You’re right, hustle does show up in stats, but not all in the stats and not in all situations, and i think those " forgotten " situations may have an influence at moments … A probability of something happening doesn’t mean it will actually happen you know.
The guy with a 0.0000000001 % chance of winning the lottery might still win it ! ! My aunt had a 99 % chance of dying of an illness and it never happened, she is part of that 1 %, hence the other side of the spectrum.
Some player go through really bad injuries early in their careers, some later, some never and some throughout , which clearly proves that not “every single player” is part of the same spectrum within the same statistic.
Landry himself or any other player do not make up the bigger picture alone. And I mentioned Landry first, stating it as a small example !
If you had “read” correctly, I never dismissed statistics at all …
I just said " I’m sick of statistics being used to" justify" “anything” by so many people …
I like stats !!! that’s the ironic part, and I’m being considered a stat hater !! hahaha ! I just think they’re one element and not “the” element …
A quote from Landry’s coach in no way indicates tomorrows mood swing or anything for the matter … A person can lie, someone can be misquoted etc etc etc …
And if you want to mention how “politically correct” you, or others may be, why not start by “not” being a hypocrite and reading posts and their meanings carefully and “entirely” without omitting or transforming words and then calling me hysterical !
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 10:55 AM PST up reply actions
. It’s been quantified.
Wasn’t that what the creator of the indicator set out to do? Anyone can match past numbers to performance and curve fit them to show what they want but they are still relying on past performance to predict future performance , they are not creating the future performance in their own image. They’ll be right as long as the conditions stay constant .The inertia of players performance can make it appear that a lagging indicator is a predictor but real world things like broken legs prove that they are not.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 5, 2010 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
they are still relying on past performance to predict future performance
If you’ve got a better way to predict the future, I’d love to hear it. And no, this isn’t it:
creating the future performance in their own image
As human beings who don’t happen to be omnipotent, that’s not a very good way of predicting things that have absolutely nothing to do with us.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Wasn’t that what the creator of the indicator set out to do?
Exactly and then sold it as Verity
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
If you know something that can give you a correct answer 100% of the time
Please share it with me. Until then, I’ll continue to trust the best source of correct answers I’ve found: Properly executed statistical analysis.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 5, 2010 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
Why do you need 100 % of reliability …. what are you predicting … global fate ???
Relax, it’s Basketball !
The beauty about a game is it’s unpredictability and the unexpected and spontaneous events that make you come out of your seat !!!!
Not the presumptuous and pretentious expectancy of an outcome ….
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 9:57 AM PST up reply actions
You should, I dunno, actually make an attempt to understand statistics
before badmouthing it.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 5, 2010 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
maybe critical thinking is part of understanding without giving in to gullibility ??? Plus relying on one type of analysis is very short sided …
It should be a combination of all things and not one area and one perspective …
Statistics are a human invention and carry flaws as we do …
An honest and “unbiased” and “out of the box” statistician will tell you that it is very easy to manipulate statistics and numbers to render the outcome to our liking …
not that it should be dismissed, because stats are a great tool, and are more reliable than most common thinking analysis, however they are not a barometer of “truth”, and indicate a “normative” type of objectifying an analysis and its collected data … which is empirical …
Just look up some etymology to finally grasp the meaning of the words !!!
it might be difficult though for those who can’t even read posts correctly …..
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 6, 2010 9:51 AM PST up reply actions
Maggs and Claxton to San Antonio for Jefferson and my boy Dejuan Blair.
Jefferson is a 14mil expring next year that could be packaged with Radman to bring in a marquee player. Blair is a savage animal on the glass.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
You know
That’s an excellent trade.
As a Spurs fan, I’d be delighted to give you a good but over the hill SF with a massive expiring contract and a vastly underpaid potential star of a second round rookie draft pick for… a medium sized expiring contract who can’t currently play and an overpaid old good but not great SF who I’ll be on the hook for for another 4 years. Those two downgrades will really help my team make that playoff push this year. I would really like to turn my “Useful player with an expiring contract” and my “Young potential upside rookie” into a “Useful player with a bloated contract” and a “Useless expiring contract.” That sounds fabulous. By the way, would you take Manu Ginobili, George Hill, and Ian Mahinmi for Devan George, Vlad Rad, and Raja Bell? That’d be fabulous too!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 5, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions
here's my hunch, based solely on politics/psychology
and almost no statistics: no trade involving significant (starters or top reserves) players will pass between GS and another west team. Minn because of their ridiculously weak position would otherwise be a candidate, but their g.m.‘s have fared so poorly with trade gambits, they’ll probably be very conservative. The west is just too competitive for playoff spots; other teams will avoid the slight possibility of boosting the woe-yrs back into relevancy. It’d be reasonable to surmise that western teams (other than Minn) think they’ve made better personnel decisions and have better rosters than GS, and the team’s assets are perceived to be worth less than how they’re valued by many fans on this site. (M’gette himself illustrates this, with a contract bigger than what he’d get from almost any other team, and a correspondingly bigger role in the offense and higher scoring average than what he’d likely see elsewhere). The fans can keep using the injuries as an excuse, but none of the injured players is an established, solid starter, other than Bell.
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