Waiving Claxton Might Be a Good Sign
by freerandolph on Feb 6, 2010 11:48 PM PST
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My reaction to the new of Claxton was probably similar to how most people reacted. I was confused, and I was angry at the Warriors for making another move that didn't make any sense.
Then I thought to myself, "Why would the Warriors do this?" And the only answer that I could think of is that the Dubs knew that a trade before the trade deadline is not going to happen. I don't know if I can really trust that the team knew that for sure. What if a team put an offer on the table in a few days that hadn't been offered before? Well, I don't know how NBA GMs work, but I'm guessing that it wasn't likely that there were going to be any new offers. Can anyone even think of a possible trade that would make sense for the Dubs to make that is realistic? We're not going to get Bosh or Boozer, unless we give up Randolph or Curry, or maybe both. Almost every trade proposal on this site has been shot down for either being unrealistic or not a good trade. I doubt a trade was going to be possible, and even though the Warriors FO has not have a good track record, I actually trust that they know what they are doing with this move (I know. I can't believe I'm saying it either, but I really think its true.)
Now, maybe I'm reading too far into this, but I'm glad the Warriors aren't making any trades and I think its a good sign for the future. It seems like its a sign the the Dubs aren't going to try to overhaul the team every few years (like they've done in the past) in order to try to make the team good. It seems like the Warriors are trying to build the team from the ground up, which I feel good about. Ellis, and Curry are solid, although I'm not sure how far they could take a team playing together. We still have young potential at power forward, and some other solid players. Add a top draft pick (we very well might finish with the second worst record in the league) and things aren't looking too bad. Curry is going to be good, Ellis is already really good and still seems to be getting better. As long as the team can get healthy, I like what we have.
Obviously, the Thunder (who just beat us tonight, so they are fresh in my mind) are the epitome of a team that was built well through the draft. The Warriors haven't had nearly as many high draft picks as the Thunder so it may take us a while to build a team thats as good as the Thunder, but I think trying to build a team that way is a better idea then trying to make drastic changes through trades. I know we can't count on this, but if we got Wall, and could trade either Curry or Ellis for a good player, our team would be immediately legitimate. If we don't get Wall, it still seems to me that we are building a solid young team.
I know everyone is angry at the team for bad management and everyone want to win now, but I think the best thing we can do is be patient. If you are pissed off at the team losing go ahead and boycott the team and do whatever you want to make yourself feel better, but there is no quick solution to our team's situation. Patiently developing young players is the best chance we have at having a good team.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Back at Warriors Headquarters...
Larry Riley (LR): Wow, Bobby. We’re really taking a hit for this Speedy Claxton fiasco.
Robert Rowell (RR): I know. I know. What are we going to do?
LR: I know. Let’s pretend we’re just normal fans on the forums and write a positive post about building with our youth.
RR: We did that before but they sniffed us out.
LR: I’ll use an alias like “freerandolph”. They’ll never suspect it’s us.
RR: Great idea!
by ladub on Feb 7, 2010 12:01 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
okay
So obviously, you disagree with me. Tell me what you realistically think we could have used Speedy to get in a trade, or else you have no reason to think letting him go was a bad idea.
by freerandolph on Feb 7, 2010 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Really?
I think it’s a horrid Idea and I don’t have to tell you why. And I have many reasons.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 7, 2010 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
If you have many reasons
why not share?
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:14 PM PST up reply actions
Obviously, the Thunder (who just beat us tonight, so they are fresh in my mind) are the epitome of a team that was built well through the draft. The Warriors haven’t had nearly as many high draft picks as the Thunder so it may take us a while to build a team thats as good as the Thundera player like Durant so they may never be as good as the Thunder.
Thing A
By putting yoursef in posistion
to recieve a higher draft pick and aquiring more draft picks, gives you more of a chance of getting the Durant’s of the world. Desperately waiving a mid sized expiring contract to keep a D-leaguer? We could of toughed it out for the few games till the trade deadline and then picked up Tolliver. Were we really that afraid we would lose Anthony Tolliver to another team or was our team so desperate to be more competetive in the next 5 or 6 games?
I would rather not make a foolish trade than make a trade at all, but giving up before the deadline is just fustrating….
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 7, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
freerandolph,
I dunno for sure if u really are Larry Riley or not, but if u are, I totally agree with everything you said and feel u should hear it from someone that your plan to build a solid young team from the ground up is more than enough. You’ve secured the necessary pieces in Curry, Ellis, Morrow, Buike, Wright, Randolph, and Biedrins (our core 7), and the fact that you’ve secured and nurtured these young guys as well as u have over the last several years is a testament to your managerial acumen. I’m truly happy with the job you’ve done since you inherited this team from Mullin. Really.
On a separate note, I don’t want John Wall. I’d rather have Monta Ellis than John Wall. Wall strikes me as being a very similar sort of player from what I’ve seen in highlights, only not as good. He looks like an athletic shoot-first combo guard and I think Ellis already fills this position for us as well as anyone that’s ever played the game. We already have our point guard of the future in Curry, and our scoring guard in Ellis. Let’s stick with what we’ve got and hope that our health situation improves in the years ahead, and that our young 7 get better.
I totally agree with everything you said and feel u should hear it from someone that your plan to build a solid young team from the ground up is more than enough.
about 2 months early with this joke aren’t ya?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 9:37 AM PST up reply actions
No joke.
I think we have what it takes to be a really competitive team down the road with our “Magnificent Seven”. Have some faith in our management. Give Riley credit for not only demonstrating throughout his tenure that he actually has a clear-cut plan (to build a contender from the ground up), but for having the gravitas and the chops to actually STICK to his guns with his designed formula (rather than merely abandon it for the sake of some ridiculous caprice which not only wouldn’t fit the game plan, but would mark a change in direction). In other words, I love our GM.
Sheesh, knock on wood, will you? We could all wake up tomorrow and find we’ve shipped off Randolph, Morrow, Curry and Wright for Iverson…
Seriously … I wouldn’t call our core anything like “magnificent,” and I’m not sure reasons for keeping it intact are based on anything but indolence, lack of creativity, cheapness, and/or lack of willing trade partners. But to the extent that the Claxton move forestalls a boneheaded big-move-for-making-a-big-move, I basically support it. With all GSoM’s feverish wannabe GMs working overtime on the trade machine, not one has really proposed a move that seemed both realistic and desirable to me. For one thing, any deal to get us a bona fide star would likely involve Monta and/or Biedrins — both of whom have the required contract size to make a deal work. Elite players are generally not traded for expiring-contract pu-pu platters. And if we’re not getting an elite NBA player, I don’t see the point. I’d much rather wait till everyone gets healthy and move forward with a core of
Top 5 pick
Curry
Monta
Morrow
Buike
Wright
Randolph
Biedrins
Let that group mature and jell — and, of course always keep one’s eyes on the prize of a franchise player (and of course, a real owner). But best to make a move when things are on the upswing, from a position of strength, not when you’re in the midst of an eight-game losing streak, with half your guys on the DL, just to appease an increasingly impatient and desperate fanbase.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 7, 2010 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
Sheesh, knock on wood, will you? We could all wake up tomorrow and find we’ve shipped off Randolph, Morrow, Curry and Wright for Iverson…
LMAO. I love u, Sleepy. Really.
Whether how we got here in this situation with our young/core seven was a result of cheapness, lack of creativity, having unwilling trade partners or big free agents turning us down because of fear of our losing tradition and reputation (Elton Brand), I think we’re truly blessed to have these 7 aforementioned players and we should be grateful we’ve managed to hold on to them for this long while their upside hasn’t diminished.
Warriors fans complain all the time, and I understand that. But we still complain with Monta Ellis, Stephen Curry, Andris Biedrins, and all the rest of those good-great young players on our roster. I don’t think we’re gracious enough to our front office for actually taking care of their future investments. And I think we should be a little more optimistic. They’re all gonna be great players. In some cases, they already are. :D
Quick question...
Your not Warriors staff per chance? Maybe Season ticket sales? ;-)
I dont think I have seen so much sunshine blown up the organisations backside as I have in those posts above. The reason why we are not gracious to our front office is the fact that on numerous occasions, too many to list, our front office has made more diabolical decisions than you can shake a stick at.
The fans have been ripped off with a very poor product not only on the floor but also at the arena and an owner who appears not to give a flying fig…
Does he have such little respect for the loyal fanbase that he cannot bother his backside to possibly make a press announcement once in a while… even release a statement to thank the fans for their support through these shockingly bad times…
The Warriors Front office has a LOT to learn about PR, slick Bobby can slither and slide his way from one season to the next…and Ridder can try to produce more spin than substance…but in the end…this Front Office has been proven by players actions to be completely incompetent….
So please…. spare me the rhetoric that everything is great in Warriorland….its not…its in Deep S….
I’ll be a little more ‘optimistic’ when certain idiots get fired from the FO for a diabolical job….and as I said before I dont hold Larry in that, as I think he is actually trying quite hard… but people like the head of marketing….who wouldnt know a decent suit if it jumped up and kicked him, let alone how to run a decent marketing campaign…is just one example of the wastes of space currently in the front office that you think so much of.
Jan 16 2010 - Onlxn quote on Stephen Curry - "one of the worst playmakers in basketball"
by BritWarriorGSW on Feb 7, 2010 4:28 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
My new sig to show my suppot for the Fans versus Cohan..
Campaign……
“LOVE WARRIORS – HATE COHAN”…..c’mon guys and gals…lets get it going…
"LOVE WARRIORS - HATE COHAN" - Sell The Team!
by BritWarriorGSW on Feb 7, 2010 5:04 PM PST up reply actions
I’d agree… the messaging was more troubling than the move. This was handled dumbly, but if it means that we’re less likely to trade Randolph for Caron Butler or somebody, then halle-friggin’-lujah.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Thats what I'm saying
Rec me!!!!!!!
Not that I’m needy or anything… :/
by freerandolph on Feb 8, 2010 9:15 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The problem with our “young 7”, is that a collection of decent players doesn’t succeed in the NBA. Your top ~3 players are what really determine whether you’re good or not. Now, realistically there’s probably not a better option out there then to develop our youth, so I’m not angry at that policy, but at some point we’re going to have to do something to upgrade the talent of the “top 3” at the expense of the 7 if we want to be good.
Wall strikes me as being a very similar sort of player from what I’ve seen in highlights, only not as good. He looks like an athletic shoot-first combo guard and I think Ellis already fills this position for us as well as anyone that’s ever played the game.
As for this…..no. Wall isn’t just an athletic guard – he’s a freak. He’s a special athlete. He’ll be able to legitimately guard 1’s and 2’s, and maybe even 3’s depending on how big he actually is. I think it’s also a stretch to call him a shoot first guard. He’s second in the country in assists. He’s not like Monta at all – he looks like he’ll have all Monta’s strengths (and possibly be even stronger at them), AND be decent or better in some of Monta’s weak areas (defense, creating for teammates specifically)…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:24 AM PST up reply actions
I read Marcus Thompsons interview with larry riley last night and for those that didnt read it here’s the link.
http://www.ibabuzz.com/warriors/2010/02/06/larry-riley-explainsdefends-his-decision/
And i actually believe this guy knows whats he’s doing despite the fact that he hasnt done anything to show me he does.This season is a wash.All we can do is look forward to losing more games so we can get the second pick in the draft and pick up evan turner.Then and maybe then we could attract a free agent that could come in and contribute.
Eh, with Riley, he hasn’t done anything bad yet, so I like that, on the other hand he hasn’t really made any good moves yet, either….so I’m in a “wait and see” approach to him.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:26 AM PST up reply actions
And i agree i dont want John Wall either.Even if we got the 1st pick.Take turner and dump Magette for a decent big Like Louis Scola or someone like that if u can make it work moneywise.
if John Wall is there you have to take him
he is the best guy available and has unbelievable potential. You cannot say you don’t want him. He could change the franchise. He could be superstar. I don’t wanna pass on a guy who could change our franchise. The Warriors could easily trade Monta away.
Not sure what a superstar is,
but it isnt a shaky borderline allstar, that shoots at a low clip and leads the league in turnovers for one of the worst teams in the league.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Feb 7, 2010 10:39 AM PST up reply actions
You're clearly hating
The Warriors being one of the worst teams in the league has nothing to do with Ellis not trying.
and Ellis “trying” has nothing to do with him being a superstar.
"We Deserve"
by YaHeard on Feb 7, 2010 11:03 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Superstar lol
One of the few to have appreciated Cap'n Jax. Do well in NC, get that 8th seed!
Conductor of the "We're Back!" Bandwagon!
All you Monta haters,
ask yourselves this. You’re all so perfectly content to dismiss Monta Ellis’ Superstar credentials based on the grounds the Warriors suck. No doubt, this was the same (flawed) logic that led to the Coaches excluding Monta from their voting ballots. The team’s record shouldn’t have been used against him (good teams make the playoffs, great players get MVP considerations, and good players make the All-Star team), but I digress. Do you guys think that when the Warriors are actually, you know… HEALTHY in the future- let’s say as soon as next season, for argument’s sake- that Monta’s stats will go down?
I’m assuming, since you guys strike me as the Ellis-hating types, that you feel because Ellis is losing badly, he’s an incapable leader. Which is to say, he can’t lead his team to wins the way the likes of the LeBron James, the Dwyane Wades, and the Chris Pauls of the world can (or have, in the past). I’m also assuming you guys aren’t impressed much by the (tremendous) scoring output he’s produced this season (since Jax was traded anyway) because, being of the Ellis-hating variety, you guys can’t get passed his declined TS% or FG%. No doubt, this is a direct byproduct of you guys being so amazed by Ellis’ (otherwordly) FG% stats 2 years ago. Fair enough.
Now, to get back to my point. Do you guys actually believe that given a (hypothetically) healthy squad next season, that Ellis’ efficiency won’t go back up (similar to the way it did 2 years ago, when you were probably amazed), assuming his number of shots per game go down- as they logically should with the added firepower- or that the Warriors won’t actually WIN more games (as they logically should with the added firepower)? Enough games to maybe even make the playoffs? Enough games that Ellis could even be considered a more obvious All-Star selection by the fans (in the future years) and the Coaches? Obvious enough that he becomes no different from the- dare I say it- LeBron James, Dwyane Wades, and Chris Pauls of the world in the Superstar conversation?
Come on haters, fill me in. I want to understand things from YOUR perspective?
Monta Ellis
It has nothing to do with him being a “leader” or not.
It has to do with the fact I don’t like watching him go 1 on 5 and ballhog more than any other player in the league, especially since his handles and passing skills are well below average for a player his size.
It has to do with the fact he’s still not an acceptable defender against most shooting guards in the league (regardless of how much Fitz and the Warriors’ PR machine try to convince us otherwise), and we can’t put him at PG because of what I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
It has to do with the fact that many meaningful advanced statistics (Adjusted Plus-Minus, Win Shares, Wins Produced, etc.) have him rated as an average-to-below-average player.
It has to do with the fact that the Warriors have been absolutely terrible Monta does play, and a little better than that when he doesn’t play. Our scoring efficiency actually goes up when he doesn’t play too.
"We Deserve"
It has to do with the fact that the Warriors have been absolutely terrible Monta does play, and a little better than that when he doesn’t play. Our scoring efficiency actually goes up when he doesn’t play too.
This is obviously based on a very small sample size of occassions when Ellis didn’t play every minute because the Dubs were playing on the receiving end of a blowout loss in garbage time.
“It has to do with the fact I don’t like watching him go 1 on 5 and ballhog more than any other player in the league.” He’s playing on a more banged-up team than anyone else in the league, with less of his actual teammates than anyone else in the league (except Curry, Beans, Maggs, and the other healthy Dubs), and playing with more D-Leaguers than anyone else in the league (except the aforementioned healthy guys).
“It has to do with the fact he’s still not an acceptable defender against most shooting guards in the league.” I dunno, I’ve seen him frustrate the likes of Brandon Roy, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, and Danny Granger this season. The punchline is, sometimes, he did it while simultaneously outscoring those guys on the other end. And at a more efficient clip, too.
“his handles and passing skills are well below average for a player his size.” I dunno, he’s getting over 5 apg this year (6 apg for the month of January alone) which is pretty decent for a shooting guard. Hell, it’s right on par with Kobe’s career average, or D-Wade this season. Meanwhile, he’s leading the team in apg. And he’s the shooting guard…
Come on, man. Your Ellis-hating has to thrive off something else (or worse)… ?
Yes well when Monta has been playing everyone has been injured
when he isn’t playing guys were healthy
Monta isn’t a bad player, he is quite good. But we could trade him for other guys who would be a better fit.
by MJ5 on Feb 7, 2010 7:20 PM PST up reply actions
To trade Monta is to signal you're rebuilding again.
He IS the franchise. No thanks.
that's fine
You have your opinion on Monta and I have mines. I’ve been complaining ever since Monta and Biedrins got their over-sized contracts, I argued that they weren’t worth it and they would handcuff our franchise for years to come. Nothing in the last two years has shown me otherwise.
I’m quite frustrated with how our franchise gives huge extensions to players who clearly do not help us win many games (Murphy, Dunleavy, Foyle, Richardson, Ellis, Biedrins, Jackson, to name a few in recent history.) And it’s our fanbase and our unconditional loyalty to whomever our current high-scorer is which enables the front office to make such horrible mistakes time after time after time.
The cycle does not stop until we realize what good basketball looks like, and demand it.
"We Deserve"
Come on haters, fill me in. I want to understand things from YOUR perspective?
Someone disagreeing with you doesn’t make them a hater. I’ll give you the brief version of what’s wrong with Monta. Scoring efficiency. He’s scoring at a below average efficiency this year relative to the rest of the league. Scoring doesn’t help a team win games if it’s coming inefficiently. Every shot he takes is a shot someone else could take instead, and if they’re even just an average efficiency scorer, our team would be better off. Now, he’s shown the ability to score efficiently in the past (.580 TS% in ‘07-08), so I’m not writing him off, but to really be a “star” offensive player he’s going to have to go back to being efficient with his scoring. It remains to be seen if he can do that or not, but what’s not in question is this year he is not doing that.
Creating for himself and others. He’s not a good passer presently, and I think a lof of it is his poor ballhandling. Regardless of why it’s happening, the end result is he’s not effective enough at creating for teammates (racking up a lot of assists will happen when you’re as big a part of the offense as Monta is, it doesn’t mean he’s a good passer) – his turnovers are a good indicator of this. If he improved his ballhandling to good levels (right now it’s atrocious for an NBA guard), I honestly believe his assists would go up significantly and his turnovers down, and all of a sudden he’d be a force when creating for teammates.
So Monta’s strength is his offense, yet his scoring doesn’t help, and he’s not effective at creating for teamamtes. That’s not a superstar. Opinions of his defense vary, but even if he’s decent, given that his offense doesn’t contribute to winning basketball….you’re just not left with anything resembling a superstar at all. Monta becoming a very useful player depends on a combination of a few things – not being a primary ballhandler or improving his ballhandling ability significantly (so he can go back to the efficient offball scorer he was with Baron next to him), and/or figuring out how to get to the line more when he drives (FT’s are the best shot in the game, if he can start getting to the line a lot, he’ll become an efficient scorer). Some improvement/changes in those areas could turn him back into an effective player. The problem is players tend to not change very much, so I’m not confident it will happen. Without change, Monta doesn’t play winning basketball. It’s not about being on a bad team. It’s not about leadership. It’s about looking at the things that actually lead to winning – turnovers, scoring efficiency (both in terms of your own and how you help the teams scoring efficiency), defense, rebounding…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:38 AM PST up reply actions
Of Course
They MUST take John Wall. Any team would be dumb to take anyone else if they had the first pick. NBA scouts are saying he’s the best number 1 pick since LeBron James.
he looks great, but he is NOT a better prospect than Oden and Durant were
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 9, 2010 2:18 AM PST up reply actions
Except that everyone seems to be in consensus that he IS a better prospect than they were…
by Missing Barry on Feb 9, 2010 6:44 AM PST up reply actions
Except for that…
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 9, 2010 7:28 AM PST up reply actions
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=975171
If you have any sources that show scout consensus that he’s the best since Lebron, I’ll change my mind.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 9, 2010 8:36 PM PST up reply actions
This graph shows that he is, at least, right up there with the best prospects since LJ...
by freerandolph on Feb 9, 2010 10:11 PM PST up reply actions
Guards, forwards not included. Being the best guard prospect since last year is not the same as the best overall prospect since Lebron. It is hard not to be biased after NBA play though.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 10, 2010 1:25 AM PST up reply actions
And people who vote for that are probably just regular fans, and since John Wall is just a college freshman, and the rest of those players are in the NBA, I think most people wouldn't vote for JW
Wait until John Wall is in the NBA, after all the hype he will get around draft time, and all the hype he will get after his first few games, and all the hype he will get when he plays well. After all those things happen this poll will be more fair to him.
by freerandolph on Feb 9, 2010 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
Everyone polled there doesn't matter at all
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 9, 2010 10:35 PM PST up reply actions
If their opinions dont matter why should our opinions? Show me consensus of people ‘that matter’
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 10, 2010 1:21 AM PST up reply actions
well, the "experts" aka people who watch propects all the time
are the ones who I have heard, at least some of, say that JW is the best prospect since Lebron. That doesn’t mean that he is for sure, but it does mean people think that JW (who is the CONSENSUS WITHOUT EXCEPTION, number one draft pick on all mock draft websites run by experts) is going to be very good.
by freerandolph on Feb 10, 2010 10:00 AM PST up reply actions
Well, you're trying to use people like us as proof for what you're saying
Check out the draftexpress page on John Wall, or ESPN’s draft stuff. These are from professional scouts or people talking to GMs, not some jerks on some forums.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 10, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
I think he might be the best prospect since Oden/Durant. I just wanted evidence that scouts said he was better than those two were at the time.
the comparison from here http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/John-Wall-1339/
Best Case: Derrick Rose At Full Potential
Couldn’t they have just copied and pasted Rose’s best case? lol its all good
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 10, 2010 8:07 PM PST up reply actions
It doesn't make sense
Why would you draft John Wall when you already have Monta Ellis? So you could trade Monta Ellis? Then what’s the point of trading one player (Ellis) for a nearly identical, albeit less proven one (Wall)? So you could start with a clean slate? So you could start over again with Curry and Wall? Do you really want to start another rebuild? Because we’ve had a season lost to injuries? So you can say you got the best player in the draft? So that if the opportunity came to you to take it, nobody would make fun of you if you didn’t?
Wall is the best player to come out of the draft in YEARS.
Wall/Ellis backcourt could be great, with Curry off the bench. If that doesn’t work, then you make the decision. But NOT drafting Wall if you have the first pick would be the BIGGEST mistake a team could make.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I don’t even see a Monta/Wall backcourt working, that would be a turnover hell. Curry coming off the bench? That wouldn’t work because he would get so little minutes. Must trade Ellis and/or Curry if we get Wall, both of them can be very valuable to another team and it could be a deal breaker for a big man.
I don’t even see a Monta/Wall backcourt working, that would be a turnover hell.
Eh, Monta didn’t use to turn the ball over very much. It’s only when he’s a primary ballhandler that he does it. Wall turns it over a ton, but he’s a 19 year old freshman in a non-offense for an awful coach, I don’t know if he’ll ever get good at taking care of the ball, but he should at least improve.
That wouldn’t work because he would get so little minutes.
There are 96 minutes available a game for the 1 and 2. Wall might be big enough to play some 3, depending on the matchups, but even if he’s not, think about it this way: Ellis could get 35 minutes a game, Wall 35 minutes a game, and that still leaves 26 minutes a game for Curry.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:42 AM PST up reply actions
OMG. Do you understand what you are saying is like a Cav’s fan in 03’ saying " Don’t take Lebron, we have Ricky Davis. Take a big man like Darko".
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
not even close
We gotta give Monta and Steph another year with a healthy team before thinking about a new starting backcourt. We need Cousins or Turner more than Wall!
We need more good players
Not a specific position.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Feb 7, 2010 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We need a real superstar more than Cousins or Turner
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:17 PM PST up reply actions
Fellas
We gotta face it, we aint gettin one! No one wants to come to this FO disfunction. Next year is gonna be our year to improve as a group then the year after we should have legitamate playoff aspirations assuming the FO doesn’t screw up this draft or destroy our core. Plain and simple if we keeping Beans as our center we have to have a back to the basket 4.
The whole point is that’s why you draft Wall. We need a superstar, and he’s the best bet to be one in this draft.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
Cousins is our pick.....no other big compares and he is for real....
We will not have the #1 pick and Cousins will be an all star monster….we are ok with our 1 and 2 for the future and we can get get this guy….we dont need another 3 as much….with our current roster…..get our post up man for the future and go for a wing next year.
by Only In Fairfax on Feb 8, 2010 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
I just hate the idea
that Warriors fan talk about John Wall like he’s a “franchise savior/cornerstone” of biblical proportions when we already have Monta Ellis, who’s already been pegged with that unenviable position title (cornerstone anyway) by the management repeatedly since he signed his contract 2 years ago, and who’s responded to the bell accordingly since Jax was traded. What’s John Wall done? He dominated at the high school level, much like Ellis did, and has had a good College season. Ellis skipped College. So what? He’s projected to be the best player in the draft.
So is Wall automatically more qualified than Ellis to lead the Warriors into the future as the cornerstone/savior? Is he better than Ellis? I’ve seen John Wall mixtapes, and I don’t see how he could be considered as good as he is. He reminds me of Allen Iverson or Rafer Alston with how much he dribbles. He strikes me as being too fancy. Anyway, I think our backcourt situation is settled enough as it is. With Curry, Ellis, Morrow, and Buike already in check, I think the last thing we need now is to start another log jam in the backcourt going forward.
No one said Wall is better than Monta
But he does have the potential to be. He has the potential to be better than anyone on our roster. You don’t pass up a unique talent like that just because you have someone on your team already ON A LOSING TEAM. We could improve at ALL positions.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
Most players hit their potential at 25-26
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:17 PM PST up reply actions
I hope everyone saying not to take wall is still frequenting this site in a few years
So I can rub it all of your faces when John Wall is one of the top 3 point guards in the league for whatever team drafts him.
by freerandolph on Feb 7, 2010 11:54 PM PST up reply actions
We had a "logjam" at the one and two spot going into this season
Look how well that one worked out…
by Goldenstarter on Feb 7, 2010 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
+1
I’m shocked when I hear people talk about this team needing a blockbuster trade. No. We need to suck for a couple of years, I mean really suck, and pile up a couple of top 4 draft picks. That is exactly what the Thunder did and they are reaping the benefits right now. It is well known that free agents do not want to come here.
Now, this probably doesn’t suit the more casual fans who just want to attend a Warrior’s win a couple times a year. But who cares about the casual fans?
by randolphforpresident on Feb 7, 2010 11:13 AM PST reply actions
missing the playoffs all these years doesn’t qualify as really suck?
don’t get me wrong r4prez, we both want this team to become a contender – just some of us are pretty tired of waiting and a blockbuster deal, as remote as the chance might be, is more attractive than “really suck” for a couple more seasons …
we haven't "really" sucked!
Look at our draft picks! They’ve all been around the 11th pick! Last year at number 7 it was the highest in a lot of years, and thats not even a really high pick. We have sucked for a long time, but we don’t suck bad enough to get high draft picks, which really sucks!
by freerandolph on Feb 7, 2010 11:56 PM PST up reply actions
But who cares about the casual fans?
The guy looking at the bottom line does, and they’re in charge of everything that goes on in the organization…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:44 AM PST up reply actions
Enough with the Guards Already!!!!
The last thing this team needs is another guard unless their last name is Paul,Williams,Or Nash i dont wanna hear about us bringing in another guard to save the day.If we get the number 1 pick id rather trade down instead of drafting John Wall.We already have two damn good guards.Thats not the position we need 2 address.Its the 4 spot or the 3 spot.As ive said repeatedly the 2 players i would love 2 see us draft are Evan Turner or Demarcus Cousins.Of course we’d play Turner at the 3.We should draft for need not tryna get the best player available.There is no guarantee that if we drafted wall that another team would give us a Solid big for ellis.So its not worth the gamble.Then we’d be stuck with ellis,wall and curry or we’d have 2 trade ellis for lesser value which im tired of doing.Draft Turner if we get a top 3 pick or draft Cousins if we draft 4th to 8th.Those two players could have instant impact.If we draft wall we’ll still be where we are today.
We should draft for need not tryna get the best player available.
That is how you draft Todd Fuller and don’t make the playoffs for 13 straight seasons in a league where more than half the teams make the playoffs each year. Do you realize that superstars win games? Your top ~3 players are a much, much bigger influence on how successful a team you are than the rest of the players combined.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:46 AM PST up reply actions
Us Drafting John Wall would be like the Thunder drafting John Wall.They already have a good point guard so they would address the Center Position.Thats what smart teams do.Dont just stockpile on the same position.Draft for need.
Thank god that you guys that wouldn’t draft Wall are not our GM. Guys like you would have drafted Darko in a draft full of Lebron, Melo, Wade and Bosh. The Warriors need assets, and John Wall is CLEARLY the best player in the draft. Sure, our guards may be a little more set than our big men, but you don’t pass up the best prospect in 5 years because of Monta Ellis. You draft Wall then figure out a plan. Whether its trading one of them for a Bonafide big man, or playing all 3. If the Thunder somehow were in the lottery, you think Presti would take the #1 Center prospect just because he already had Westbrook?? He would get run out of town!
Not saying we shouldn't draft Wall
If we get the number one pick then they draft him, but they probably won’t get it. I would want them to get Wall, but I’m just saying that it might be better for the team to not get put in that situation so that thye have to get rid of guys, and instead get the the 2nd or 3rd pick and get a guy they really need. Look, Wall would be great, but the team would be better if they had another good big man or a guy to play the 3. They are pretty dang good at guard right now as is. I’m just saying it would make things less complicated since the team pretty much has commited to Curry as there guy and the future of the team. But then again, there is no way you pass up Wall though
If we don't get the number one pick, then we don't even have half a shot at Wall
we’re only saying IF we get the number one pick.
If we don’t, we can take Cousins or Turner.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:18 PM PST up reply actions
They are pretty dang good at guard right now as is.
Are we, really? Generally 13 win teams aren’t “pretty dang good” at 2/5 of the rotation….
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
Thats what smart teams do.Dont just stockpile on the same position.Draft for need.
Taking the best player even if it’s not a position we need puts us into the position to trade one of our players for what we do need. It’s all about getting the most value from the draft, we can re-arrange the players later. Now when the top players are pretty equal like Oden and Durant were in that draft the positional choice becomes something to think of but they say Wall is way better than anyone else this year so despite having adequate guards now we’d be smart to pick him?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Drafting for need is exactly what you don't do
or else Sam Bowie happens
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:19 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting that you use the Thunder, considering they just drafted James Harden despite already having Westbrook, Durant and Green. That seems like it suggests the exact opposite of the point you’re trying to make.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:50 AM PST up reply actions
Harden was similarily rated to all the players left on the board when the Thunder drafted. Obviously, when there is no glaring difference in talent, you draft for need. You could say they should have drafted Tyreke since he was probably the BPA, but for what OKC was building, they went for need, and a glue guy, so they took Harden.
Last year’s draft is a good example of need vs BPA with Memphis. They took Thabeet because of need. Now maybe in the long haul, Thabeet will put it all together and become the next Dikembe, but I’m sure a lot of Grizzlie fans wanted them to take Tyreke.
but for what OKC was building, they went for need
I’m just not seeing the evidence it was a “need” based pick? If they really drafted on “need”, as J-Ridah seems to be suggesting, wouldn’t they have gone after a C instead of a wing?
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 10:29 AM PST up reply actions
?????????
Westbrook PG
Durant SF/SG
Green PF/SF
Harden SG
looks like a perfect 4 right there, all they missing is a C. Once they sure up that spot they title contenders possibly as early as next year!
looks like a perfect 4 right there, all they missing is a C. Once they sure up that spot they title contenders possibly as early as next year!
Yeah, seems like guys like DHo would be salivating to go play with that group?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 10:36 AM PST up reply actions
Are u agreeing with me
or mocking me?
Other than playing in the middle of nowhere what center in their right mind would not wanna play with that lineup?
Are u agreeing with me, or mocking me?
Haha , Which would do more for your credibility?
I actually agree so you’ll probably get lots of responses telling you how bad an idea it is :>)
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
I aint worried about my credibility
but i would have questioned yours if you disagreed. I generally agree with your posts.
Bad grammar.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 8:23 PM PST up reply actions
Yall too funny on this site
bunch of smart alecs and english professors
i agree
warriors don’t need another guard. they need someoen who can score from the 4 or 5 position.
John Wall > Ellis AND Curry
If we get the first pick, John Wall is the way to go. Trade Ellis or Curry, doesn’t matter because Wall is going to be better.
Thats because Ellis is a veteran in the NBA and Wall if a freshman in college!!!!!
Wait until Wall has at least 10 games in the NBA before you compare him to an NBA player!
by freerandolph on Feb 7, 2010 11:59 PM PST up reply actions
Demarcus Cousins added to our team of lillipucians we could be on to something.
by Banned.For.Life on Feb 7, 2010 12:48 PM PST reply actions
With all this hype
I hope Wall ends up being a bust.
by A2mm2o on Feb 7, 2010 12:58 PM PST reply actions
I hope Wall ends up being a bust.
I hope if we don’t get him that the Lakers trade for him so he at least plays in california.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 2:50 PM PST up reply actions
That seems unnecessarily bitter. Why are you so against the hype? Just because he’s good? There’s a reason for the hype – the guys that know what they’re talking about see a truly special prospect. Why do you feel the need to fight that?
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:51 AM PST up reply actions
we need
COUSINS REALLY BAD. But if we have the opertunity to pick Turner, got to take that.
Who are you guys? John Wall is one of the top 5 prospects to come in the draft in the past 10 years. You are incredibly lazy, and unbelievably ignorant in your thinking. We don’t have a good point guard. And we have a shooting guard who takes way too many shots, and doesn’t make enough of them. Monta isn’t a star. If he was, we would be a decent team. Instead, we are the 3rd worst team in the league. Don’t make your homerism gone wild campaign get on a site like GSOM, which includes educated opinions, and strong commentary.
If Monta was so great, wouldn’t he have had a decent game last night, a game we could have easily won if he had shot near 40%. No he was 6-24 from the field with 7 turnovers. So great. So great.
I’m glad you guys aren’t GM of this team, or Owner, because with thoughts like Turner >>>>> Wall, you easily could be worse than a Chris Cohan/ Rowell. Until you start making educated commentary, i think it’s pointless for any of the top posters on this site to respond to your stuff.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
Monta!
calling people ignorant is a way to get banned and then you have to put.between.your old.name
I’m not calling anyone ignorant. I’m saying it is ignorant to think Wall is not going to be good, and that Curry and Monta are better than him. I’m not attacking anyone. I didn’t press reply to anyone. I was just pointing out to the general public on this thread that saying Wall isn’t the best player in this draft is uneducated and when it is pointed out he is, and you continually disagree and keep posting, " NO, monta is so much better. we already have a superstar. draft turner"… well what do you call it. I pulled ‘ignorant ’ off of dictionary.com.
lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
Well, it is lacking of knowledge to say John Wall isn’t the best player in this draft, and to say Monta is a superstar. It is lacking knowledge to say we shouldn’t draft Wall because Curry would then be the backup, or to say he doesn’t work with Monta.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
its even more ignorant to even suggest
drafting Demarcus Cousins insn’t a good idea.
by Banned.For.Life on Feb 7, 2010 1:29 PM PST up reply actions
Not that it's a bad idea to get Cousins
just a bad idea to take him ahead of Wall.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:21 PM PST up reply actions
It all depends on what pick # you’re talking about…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:52 AM PST up reply actions
Point Guards and Big Men win championships.
Rarely do wings unless they are once in a life time talents ( Lebron, Jordan, Wade).
Usually you need a top point guard or top big man to win. There is only one top player in this draft. It is John Wall. He not only is the top player, but a player who plays a position of need. Cousins is not going to be a great player.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
So much fail written all over your post..
What’s the last time a PG led a championship team? (and Lebron for that matter). And I like how you left out Kobe.
by A2mm2o on Feb 7, 2010 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
The only year that I remember a great point guard leading a championship team in the last decade was Billups, and even he had a ton of help.
For the most part big men win championships, and the Warriros do not have one capable of being a championship type big man. I believe Cousins has the skill and potential to be that guy. He’s ony 18 and is super polished.
This is how i describe your post.
lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact
I left out Kobe because he had Shaq, Gasol, Odom, and Bynum in all of his championships. He had a top 5 big man on all of his championship teams. The frontcourts he had were more significant than his low FG%, high volume scoring in those championships.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
When Kobe won his first three rings, he wasn't even the best shooting guard in the NBA
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:22 PM PST up reply actions
When Kobe won his 4th ring, he STILL wasn’t even the best shooting guard in the NBA…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:53 AM PST up reply actions
He still wasn’t the best player on his team.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:11 PM PST up reply actions
I tend to think
we are stacked with highly skilled smalls and our obvious need is a big that can defend and score in the low post. I know I am in the minority when I think if we had a talented PF we would have a playoff team. Our smalls are NOT the issue. We need big, mean, and nasty.
We have 3 decent big men.
Biedrins is very good. Randolph is good. Wright is above average.
Big man is not really a need. We just need better players overall. I think we should look to upgrade at SG, and PG as well as every other position. They aren’t cutting it.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
You are mistaken
If you think Biedrins is very good because every few games he’ll get a double double, then you are wrong. Almost EVERY single team in history that has won a championship has had a dominant presence down low, and Biedrins is not that. Randolph could be a really good power forward, but not the kind that dominates in the post. Cousins can definitely be that guy. He is only 18 and is super skilled.
Can you stop?
Biedrins is a very good player. So are Wright and Randolph. You undervalue rebounding and efficient scoring.
I’m sure you were for the Amar’e trade. And we know he isn’t a dominant big man.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
haha
You’re a funny guy. I’m undervaluing rebounds and efficient scoring? You really think that getting outrebounded every game injured or not, makes the team good at rebounding? When was the last time Biedrins was able to score like a normal big. The guy is so scared to put up a shot because he doesn’t want to get fouled, that he’ll panic and trhow up a crazy brick, or make a silly pass for a turnover. He has scored efficiently over his career becuase of Baron and other driving and dumping to him for easy buckets. Now teams are playing him differently and making him create on his own, and he is showing that he isn’t capable. That’s why I say they should get Cousins who can actually score and rebound like a dominant big. And I was actually one of the people that said no to Amare.
Biedrins isn't the reason we are terrible rebounders.
Its because Nellie barely plays him and Randolph ( our two best rebounders) and plays a Turiaf- Maggette Frontcourt way too much. Biedrins scores pretty well. I don’t get where you think Biedrins can’t score.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t get where you think Biedrins can’t score.
probably from watchin him shoot?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 2:54 PM PST up reply actions
When was the last time Biedrins was able to score like a normal big.
Last year, when he was averaging 14+ points per 36 minutes, which is a respectable amount for a C?
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:54 AM PST up reply actions
I know I am in the minority when I think if we had a talented PF we would have a playoff team.
I mean, I want a dominate big, too, but if we were really one piece away, don’t you think we should have more than 13 wins right now? If our guards were that good, wouldn’t we have more wins than we do currently? They’ve been playing (and not hurt the way our bigs have been) – if there’s really no reason to upgrade them, it seems our team should be more successful than it’s been…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 8:56 AM PST up reply actions
Is that "one piece" LeBron?
Because LeBron could go to the Nets and they’d immediately be a playoff team…
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Feb 8, 2010 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
How many D-Leaguers do we have?
Do we have a rookie PG?
How many games did our starting and backup center miss?
Azubuike and Randolph?
Is Nellie still our coach?
If we had a Bosh at PF and some relative health yes we’d be a playoff team. Undoubtedly we are 1 all-star level post player away from being a “playoff” team but injuries and poor coaching(no commitment to defense) will give u 13 wins. The guards are not at all a problem, it’s who they are stuck playing with this season. Im all for getting Wall but if we do he needs to be a starter and Curry or Monta has to go since neither one should be a back-up. Then we got a rookie PG again without addressing our need which is a low post scorer.
and some relative health
We’re no doubt a more talented team than our record suggests. Injuries have been killer so far this season. One of the points I’m making is our guards have been healthy, though – if they were that good, even with all that’s gone wrong, we should be better than we’ve been. A guy like Bosh puts us in the hunt for one of the last playoff spots, sure, but he’s arguably the top PF in the league, so I assumed your original comment like a talented PF could apply to some lesser player like Boozer or something – not sure he’d put us into the playoffs.
Moving on, I’m not sure why “low post scorer” is such a big need. Sure, I’d love to have one, I do think shooting near the basket is the best thing you can do (high % shots + good possibility of fouls), but a guy like Bosh isn’t really a low post guy – his game has a lot more high post/jump shot to it than a classic low post bruiser. Plus, how many teams really have an effective back to the basket low post guy anyways? The Spurs, Magic and Lakers….and…? It’d be nice to have, but it’s not an absolute need. Many teams are successful without a quality low post option. What we should be focused on is acquiring talent, especially a superstar. I’d prefer that superstar to be a big man, but those are tough to find, I’d take any legitimate superstar right now. And that’s why we need John Wall.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
its about drawing Double Teams
thats how teams with shooters like the Wariors have are successful. Open shots instead of contested shots.
Drawing double teams is certainly nice and a benefit of a good low post scorer, but again, how many guys out there can effectively do this for us? Howard, Gasol, Duncan…..and? Even guys like Boozer and Amare who are great scorers can’t pass to save their lives, what good does drawing a double team do if you can’t pass effectively out of it to set your teammates up? It’s also not the only way to get open shots – Chris Paul gets pletny of open looks for his teammates, for instance.
So it’s not that I’m disagreeing with you on the effectiveness of a good low post player – I’d love to get one for the Warriros – there just aren’t many out there who can score and create for their teammates, and it’s not necessary for success, there are good teams without much low post presence at all.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
We can get your boy Al Jefferson!
You know it’s actually harder to pass into the post than out of the post.
Sweet, why settle for being bad because of terrible luck with injuries when we can strive to be legitimately bad like the T’Wolves!
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
If it's so difficult to pass out of the post, then why would a big man that can draw double teams be so important?
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
Read it again buddy
you’re interpreting it backwards.
I thought the comment was half sarcasm, half serious, so I responded to the second part.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 5:45 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe you are still confused
What it was seriously saying is that it is harder to make a quality pass INTO the post as opposed to OUT of the post. Meaning even if you think a particular big man is not a very good passer it is still easier for him to pass out of/before the double team than it is for a GUARD to get ball to him in the first place. Ask any coach and they’ll tell you the same.
Cousin's not going to be a great player?
You must not watch TV.
Cousins on this team healthy =
Playoffs!!!
by Banned.For.Life on Feb 7, 2010 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
Wow, it must be troll feeding time.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
I think he might be referring to some of your comments. Haha.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Lets clear some stuff up
In the draft you pick the best player available. You pick the player that will win you games. John Wall is the best player in the draft, no doubt about it and he will win games.
I think without Wall if healthy our lineup of:
Monta
Steph
Bukie
Randolph
Beans
could take us to the playoffs
With Wall we could be a 6 or 7 seed
I think we need a good sf to really compete though. Biedrins is a great defender and rebounder. At times we have seen flashes of offense from him. I think he can be a 15 and 10 guy. Randolph and Wright have incredible potential and I think they can play well if given enough minutes.
I think a good trade for the Warriors would be Monta for Luol Deng. This would be very good if we got John Wall.
Because we would have a very deep and talented team.
Steph/ Cj/ John Wall
Wall/ Morrow/ Bukie
Deng/ Maggette/ Bukie
Randolph/ Wright/ Bukie/ maggette
Beans/ Turiaf/ randolph/ Wright
We would be a better rebounding and defensive team. We would also still be able to run and gun.
Wall would probably be the point guard. Curry the shooting guard.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 2:06 PM PST up reply actions
Wall would probably be the point guard.
In that case it would be better to keep Montay instead of Curr-bury
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
You think?
Right now it may be a toss up, I say we get the best deal for one or the other.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 7, 2010 3:03 PM PST up reply actions
I think we might be able to figure out a three guard rotation
or at least get some good value for Curry
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
I think we might be able to figure out a three guard rotation
Yeah but I think we’d then have too much talent on the guard side and not enough on the big side? My comment was based on Wall and Montay being more dominating than Wall and Curry? Now if it turned out that Wall couldn’t handle well enough to play the point I’d switch to Curry and Wall. Whichever we traded either Montay or Curr-bury should bring a pretty good bigger man?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
Then we trade Monta or Curry
we could probably get a Rudy Gay type for Monta.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:46 PM PST up reply actions
In the draft you pick the best player available.
Are u guys telling me that Hakeem Olajuwon and Sam Bowie were better than Michael Jordan? If so, that’s REALLY weird. If not, then why didn’t Houston or Portland pick Michael with the first pick? Could it be because they were stacked at the guard positions, you think? You guys clearly aren’t GM’s.
You guys clearly aren’t GM’s.
And neither are you. No one could have predicted that Jordan would turn out to be, well Jordan. If that were the case then yeah he would have been the clear choice for #1.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 7, 2010 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
Dude...
I didn’t say I was a GM. I’m just pointing out that for anyone to come on this board and deride others for lacking General Managerial skills they themselves know nothing about- by making false pronouncements like “You only trade for the BEST!”- rings as pretentious. Of coarse, in hind-sight, Michael turned out to be the greatest player of all-time, but he was also HEAD AND SHOULDERS above everyone else in College, leading the nation in scoring while racking up the Naismith, ACC Player of the Year, College Player of the Year, and other such honors and distinctions for 2 years straight.
I’m NOT knocking Houston or Portland for going to the positions that they needed. Nobody could’ve predicted Sam Bowie would be a bust, either. The point is, when you come on this board and portray yourselves as accomplshed GM’s with backing arguements that are based on nothing, it wreaks of arrogance. Houston and Portland did just fine WITHOUT Michael. Clearly, in their cases, not taking Jordan (the best player in the draft, by far) worked out well for them because of all the success they had later… I’m sure they didn’t regret not taking Jordan when they were playing in the Finals (in Portland’s case) consistently, or winning championships (in Houston’s case) in the mid-90’s with their star draft pick.
Are you trying to tell me YOU would’ve drafted better than either Portland or Houston in 1984 if it was YOU in the GMs’ shoes? Please. If you were a GM, you wouldn’t be on here telling us about it. Golden State can win by simply drafting for what they need, too. Why wouldn’t they?
Wow, put that dog on a leash “Dude”. I’m not saying I would have drafted Jordan over any of the others that was the point. If you want to punch a strawman please do it on your own time and not put works into what I say that I clearly I did not say.
See Skep’s comment below.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 7, 2010 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
You just seemed so convinced
it would’ve been stupid for the Dubs to pass on Wall in this year’s draft when really there’s no precedent in GMing that would’ve precipitated that to be a dumb move. It’s not unusual for teams to go with what they need, and then have success. That’s all.
I'm saying
Not drafting the best player in the draft was good, in Houston and Portland’s case.
If not, then why didn’t Houston or Portland pick Michael with the first pick?
Cause they thought the other guys were better.Doesn’t mean they we right just like taking Wall over Cousins is not a 100% slamdunk but if we think Wall is the best player we would be stupid to not take him just because we have some guards already.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 3:02 PM PST up reply actions
Nooooo, you're missing the point, dude
Houston and Portland drafted for what they NEEDED. And clearly, in their cases, it turned out to be a legitimate winning tactic. Portland didn’t need Michael and they went to the Finals (twice) without him. Houston didn’t need Mike either, but they NEEDED a center. So they got won and won two titles. The Warriors don’t NEED Wall. They already have Monta. Just as Portland already had Drexler. The Warriors can win without Wall. They WILL win with Monta, in the future.
Hilarious
They already have Monta. Just as Portland already had Drexler.
Monta is not nearly on the level of Clyde the Glide.
Drexler is so much better than Monta. There is no comparison.
They WILL win with Monta, in the future.
Debatable. Unless he starts letting others shoot more, and he shoots less, no.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 3:17 PM PST up reply actions
No it's not debatable.
He’s a Superstar who needs to be playing with his actual teammates. The guys that have been injured. Not D-Leaguers.
Meh, I think Ellis’ ceiling is much higher than Drexler and more on par with Jordan.
you really think monta is much better than clyde drexler
and you think he can be as good as jordan
by MJ5 on Feb 7, 2010 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
I think he will be
better than Drexler. He already reminds me of Jordan. I’ve loved the Ellis/Jordan comparison for the last 2 years. So, yeah, I think he’ll be more on par with MJ than Drexler.
You must be joking, right?
Ellis can barely be compared to Iverson, what makes you think he can be compared to Jordan?
Ellis has compared quite favorably to Iverson
whenever the subject has been broached by opposing players and coaches. Iverson himself said Ellis could do more than he ever could, while Doc Rivers said he’s “more powerful” a player. It’s a bad comparison. Ellis is so much more efficient, athletic and unselfish than A.I. ever was.
I think the Iverson comparison seems right. I don’t see Monta being the next Jordan. That’s ridiculous because Monta can’t even help this team win, while Iverson carried his team to the finals. I don’t think Monta is going to be better than Iverson. Yes, you can say Iverson is inefficient in which I agree, but I can also say Ellis is turnover prone. Ellis-Jordan comparison is just too ridiculous. Jordan is one of the league leaders in points (in NBA history) and was one of the best players in NBA history. I doubt Monta will go down that road, people out of the Warrior’s organization/fan base doesn’t even know who he is. Until I see 6 rings with 6 finals MVP along with the next seasons averaging 30 points a game, Ellis can’t be compared to Jordan.
Michael Jordan
is not only my favorite basketball player of all-time, he’s my idol. Though I was unfortunate enough to have been too young to have witnessed any of his run with the Bulls (I started watching basketball in the 2002 season), I’ve watched hour upon hour of footage of his, whether through highlights from games or mixtapes on the internet, or from “Greatest Game” segments on either NBA TV or DVD’s. So when I say I think Ellis is the new Jordan, I mean no disrespect to “the man” (and his countless, incredible career accomplishments) whatsoever.
Having said that, I think they’re more similar than the common bball fan realizes. For one thing, they’re bost undersized (for their respective eras) shooting guards. For another, they were drafted by teams with small national market/bad losing traditions. Both players are (arguably, in Monta’s case) the most freakish athletic players of their era (LeBron’s a physical freak too no doubt, but no active player has the extraordinary ability to control and contort their bodies in mid-flight the way Ellis does).
Both guys’ careers could be defined by the players’ characteristic defying of expectations (as I’ve mentioned above, MJ wasn’t a coveted top pick for various reasons and even the Bulls had reservations about drafting a shooting guard, and then Michael surprised everyone by leading the league in total points scored as a rookie. In College, people were surprised that Dean Smith started him as a freshman, or that Michael would hit the game-winner against Georgetown. In 1988, people were surprised when Michael won defensive player of the year, after Michael didn’t even get Defensive First-Team Honors in 1987, etc.)
With Monta, the surprises in his young career thus far are probably more obvious, being that he was a 2nd Round Draft pick (40th overall), got little minutes as a rookie only to bounce back and start while winning MIP in his sophomore season, became only the 9th guard in NBA history to shoot 60% from the field for an entire month in February 2008 (while averaging 26 ppg) in a season in which he finished 14th best in the league in FG% while shooting 53% and leading all guards in that category. That summer, Monta signed his 6-year deal, which marked the biggest single-season pay raise for a player in NBA history as the Warriors let go of Baron Davis and designated Ellis the franchise player, etc.
I also think there’s something to the fact that they’re both country boys, with Jordan being from North Carolina and Ellis from Jackson Mississippi. They both have southern accents, and I think there’s something to the fact that they came from such humble/sheltered backgrounds and beginnings. For instance, both were star high school players who had little to no NBA exposure growing up. MJ didn’t have cable and though I’m not sure this is the case with Ellis, it strikes me that he himself hasn’t seen Jordan play much either because he was too young or his family was poor.
Sure, Ellis’ efficiency has dipped this season and his turnovers have become inflated as well, but I think you’re overlooking the Warriors’ significant health situation when you declare Ellis is as turnover-prone or inefficient as A.I. in his prime. A.I. was never playing on a D-League team like Ellis has been. Neither was MJ for that matter (however much his team sucked when he arrived in 1984). What all of them have in common is they have had to do it for bad teams. In Ellis’ case, this is the case more so because the lineup is always in flux with all the guys that have come and gone sporadically.
Anyway, I think Ellis has a very bright future as the cornerstone of this franchise and that as they get healthy (hopefully, starting next season), he has the ability to help the team sore to high enough heights that by 2013 or 2014, he’s headlining a Warriors’ matchup against LeBron’s Cavs in the Finals. I even have fantasies of a game where Ellis overcomes a 40-point LeBron triple-double game with a 53-point performance of his own to win the game. :D
Hey, i’m not questioning your feelings. If those two are your favorite players, thats fine by me, my favorite players aren’t the greatest ever, but i don’t say stuff like Marco Belinelli is the next reggie miller and etc.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 7:32 PM PST up reply actions
You can, and I just did.
Just terrible, terrible stuff, Max. Please stop it.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 8, 2010 12:43 AM PST up reply actions
I’m just really, really not seeing the Jordan comparisons. Jordan was 6’6 and long – he was a big SG for his era, and a big SG for any era. Jordan had a certain smooth athleticism to his game that someone like Lebron (the most athletic person on the face of the planet) lacks, but I really don’t see it in Ellis, either. Guys like Kobe and T-Mac are the closest we’ve come to that kind of grace/athletic combination since Jordan.
As a player, Jordan could absolutely dominate on offense. He could create for himself at will, create for his teammates, finish, get to the line….he did it all. Monta has the ballhandling skills of a C masquerading at wing – and he gets by with his athleticism (and refs allowing him to carry it every time he touches the ball with his left hand, and half the time with his right hand). Monta can go 94 feet as fast as anyone in the NBA, and is a great offensive player off the ball, but Jordan dominated on the ball, off the ball, wherever he wanted, half court or full court. Stylistically, their game just isn’t remotely similar.
Throw in Jordan’s size/length, which made him one of the best wing defenders in all of basketball, and that’s another thing completely different about them.
So I dunno, I don’t really like the Iverson comparison either, but I really, really don’t think Jordan/Monta are very similar at all, even when looking at them in terms of playing style…
With Ellis, the biggest problem is he can’t be a franchise cornerstone with his lack of ballhandling skills. Right now Ellis is at his best off the ball, and he’s ineffective overall on the ball, and that’s hardly the mark of a “franchise player”. We either need to find someone else to be the focal point of the offense with Ellis as a great complement, or Ellis needs to drastically improve.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:08 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you kidding me? This is the most absurd thing i have ever read. Ellis is comparable to Jordan?
He’s not even better than Danny Granger. And you’re comparing Ellis to the greatest player of all time?
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 5:42 PM PST up reply actions
Whether or not
you agree with my believing Monta is comparable to Jordan is irrelevant. The point is, Monta is in a situation similar to the one MJ n The Glide were in with the teams that drafted them. Which is to say, he’s the franchise shooting guard/player. No need to complicate matters by getting another one when Ellis is continuing to improve and excel as a player each season. Let alone as much as he has in this, his first season as the team’s focal point.
Whether or not
you agree with my believing Monta is comparable to Jordan is irrelevant.
Its completely relevant. You are comparing Ellis to Jordan, you should expect criticism.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
I don't want this to be one of those things
where I’m compelled to go on yet another one of my long drawn-out “Monta Ellis is the modern day Michael Jordan” tangents on this site while everyone gets upset.
Everyones going to be upset because its simply a ridiculous assessment that makes no sense, or has any factual basing. I mean how do you compare a guy who isn’t even a top 30 player in this league, to the greatest player ever?
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
No,
I meant people get upset because it’s usually been me going off the subject topic to write an essay about how Ellis is Jordan’s modern equal, more or less. I’m gonna copy and paste some of my previous arguments for you.
Ellis is Jordan’s modern equal, more or less.
Haha, not much more but a lot less?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 7:38 PM PST up reply actions
Ellis/Jordan
“I think that with the fact that he’s so small, standing 6’3” n weighing a buck-eighty, paired with his (in my opinion) unparalleled ability to score at the rim, n his success rate getting there at the clip that he does (he leads the league in points in the paint), along with the fact that he puts on a one-man show every night (how many Ellis highlights do we get per game??) make him the most exciting player in the league.
When MJ was in his prime with the Chicago Bulls, the league was a lot taller than it is today. And pretty much every competitive team had a dominant center that anchored their gameplan (either on offense, like Abdul-Jabbar, on defense, like Mark Eaton, Tree Rollins, Bill Laimbeer, or Manute Bol, or both, like Hakeem Olaijuwon n Ralph Simpson). In fact, MJ, standing at 6’6", was considered short for a 2-guard (by an inch) in the 80’s (Clyde Drexler was 6’7"), as Ellis is considered by many in the present day (D-Wade is only an inch taller than him as well).
So, though MJ stood 3 inches taller than Ellis, Ellis is no less a David among Goliaths than MJ was in his first stint with the Bulls, when he mercilessly attacked the rim as gracefully as a ballerina on a nightly basis, n filled up the highlight reels in the process. To me, this is no different than what Ellis does with his own grace n athleticism every night.
He’s usually the smallest dude on the court, n yet, he slays would-be defenses with his extraordinary quickness n explosiveness (n hangtime) as easily n as often as MJ used to."
- Krazee max
Ok, MJ was much more athletic, not that Monta isn’t.
MJ scored more efficiently at the rim. MJ actually was a better creator.
MJ was an amazing defensive player.
I don’t think it needs to be stated how much better MJ is than Ellis, and for a matter of fact, anyone at this point.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 7:14 PM PST up reply actions
Watch footage of Michael n Monta back-to-back
as I’ve recently done. I’ve also included a more fuller comparison analysis of their careers above. :D
I think Monta could be a lot better a defender
in Jordan’s time as well, when there was still hand-checking. Today, the league makes it impossible because you can only try to beat the man with your feet. Monta has very quick lateral movement and is effective enough at this. Give him hand-checking, I think he could be a monster at creating hell here.
Dude.
Jordan’s the last pure guard to win DPOY. He was an amazing defender. Monta will never be that good.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 8:00 PM PST up reply actions
Monta doesn't have the size or length to be half the defender that Jordan was
Monta isn’t even NEARLY one of the best defenders at his position.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:27 PM PST up reply actions
Wade is at least an inch and a half taller than Ellis. I also really don’t see where 6’6 used to be undersized. You can point to Drexler, but I can point to guys like Hornacek or Dumars, too. I don’t see any reason to think the league has shrunk in some signficant way, if anything, an increased population base should cause it to grow.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
Wade is at least an inch and a half taller than Ellis.
I don’t see this at all when I see them standing next to each other. The difference is more negligible.
I could care less if you see it or not. I was going based on combine measurements, you know, where they actually measure how tall these guys are. Wade was measured at 1.5" taller than Monta with shoes and without shoes. Also, Wade has a 6’11 wingspan compared to Monta’s 6’3 wingspan, so that makes a pretty big difference in how big they’re able to play…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:23 PM PST up reply actions
MJ, standing at 6’6", was considered short
Wow,
I thought I was nuts before I read this post , thank you
The comparison shouldn’t even reach this point … Believe me, MJ as a player, had nothing to do with his height, he was just an incredible player and competitor !
The fact that Magic is the only player ever to be able to play 5 positions smoothly is due to his skill set. Sure he had good hight which helps, but he had the skill and intelligence to adapt to each position. Monta will always be limited to 2 of them, and it has nothing to do with height, he is a great player with great will but lacks fundamentals and maturity which he cannot all make up for …
And let’s not even compare how clutch MJ was !
by NIC26WARRIORS on Feb 8, 2010 9:44 AM PST up reply actions
Magic's size has almost everything to do with his ability
to play multiple positions effectively. He was as beefy as most centers, and the size of a power forward.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:49 PM PST up reply actions
I’ll use a quote from somewhere, that i heard.
“If Jordan was 6’2, he’d be the greatest point guard, if he was 6’9, he’d be the greatest power forward, if he was 7 feet, he would be the greatest center. Thats how good he is, and how hard he works.”
Not sure where i heard it, but it may have been from Pippen or Kerr in a documentary.
So, Jordan’s height had nothing to do with his greatness…
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
You are another person who I really think should tell any other site
your belief that Monta is even remotely like Michael Jordan and see what they say and see how ridiculous that comparison is
by MJ5 on Feb 7, 2010 7:24 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve loved the Ellis/Jordan comparison for the last 2 years.
Who has made this comparison except you?
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 7, 2010 5:58 PM PST up reply actions
Stephen A. Smith said
“He has the ability to be as dominant as Michael (Jordan), and maybe even more” in 2008.
Stephen A. Smith said
"HeLebron James has the ability to be as dominant as Michael (Jordan), and maybe even more" in 2008.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
Link?
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 7, 2010 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
Damn
It used to be on his wikipedia page. I remember when it actually made the headlines, too.
I don’y.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 6:07 PM PST up reply actions
I don’yt.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 6:08 PM PST up reply actions
In the Warriors store underground
at the Oracle there is a Autographed poster of Monta with a quote that reads, "He has the ability to be as dominant as Michael (Jordan), and maybe even more". Stephen A. Smith.
I saw this when i was there a few weeks back, started laughing, said to my girl, “babe come check out the most rediculous qoute ever.” She started laughing too. I like Stephen A. personally but that quote was completely irresponsible.
He already reminds me of Jordan
You have no idea who Michael Jordan is do you?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
I am telling you ask anybody who is sane and they will laugh at you for thinking Monta is the next Jordan
I love Monta, but you are telling me a guy who cannot make the all star game is like Jordan
by MJ5 on Feb 7, 2010 7:30 PM PST up reply actions
That might've come out wrong,
I meant, the reason Monta didn’t make it is NOT that he didn’t deserve it.
the first one could come off as me saying
“(the reason) Monta didn’t make the All-Star Game (is) because he didn’t deserve it.”
Ok, i see what you are saying. Maybe you think he was snubbed, but i don’t have a problem with anyone selected ahead of him.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 7:37 PM PST up reply actions
I mean, there are snubs sometimes, but i can’t argue with any of the west’s picks.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 7:36 PM PST up reply actions
I think it's highly suspect
when the (ONLY) top 10 scorer who didn’t make an All-Star roster’s stats are better virtually across the board than all the reserves named, either within position or at the other spots.
Top 10 scorer=/=top 10 player
Assists and rebounds matter too. Also efficiency
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
I’m gonna go ahead and say you’re looking at the wrong stats.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:16 AM PST up reply actions
Monta Ellis' 2009-2010 stats:
26.2 ppg, 46% FG, 4.2 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.2 spg
Deron Williams’ 2009-2010 stats: 18.9 ppg, 49% FG, 4.0 rpg, 9.7 apg, 1.1 spg
Chauncey Billups’ 2009-2010 stats: 19.7 ppg, 42% FG, 3.0 rpg, 6.1 apg, 1.2 spg
Brandon Roy’s 2009-2010 stats: 23.1 ppg, 48% FG, 4.6 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.0 spg
And there u have it. Monta’s season stats relative to some players who secured reserve spots ahead of him. Are you going to try and tell me that Ellis’ stats don’t rank (at least) on par with, if not much better than most?
And also, before you respond to this, bear in mind that completely disregarding the clear scoring advantage in Ellis’ favor just isn’t gonna cut it if you want to be considered as something other than an “Ellis hater” (the brand of which I’ve mentioned above). You can’t have it both ways.
Scoring is good. Scoring efficiency matters, though, and you left it completely out. League average scoring efficiency is around 54% TS%, a bit less for wings a bit more for bigs. Monta’s TS% is 52.3%. Williams is at 58.6% this season, Chauncey at 61.7%, and Roy 58.1%. That’s the difference. A team gets a certain number of offensive possessions a game, and each shot a player takes is a shot someone else can’t take. For every shot Monta takes, if an average scorer shot instead of him, the Warriors would end up scoring more, and winning more. That’s why his scoring for this year doesn’t help. All the other guys are well above average efficiency – that’s why their scoring does help win games. The current version of Monta is simply a volume scorer – he gets the points, but he has to shoot too much to get them and it doesn’t help the team win games. If he wants to truly be an All-star, he’s going to have to score more efficiently. Once he’s doing that, THEN we can give him credit for how many points he scores, because only then will it actually be helping his team win games.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
For every shot Monta takes, if an average scorer shot instead of him, the Warriors would end up scoring more, and winning more. That’s why his scoring for this year doesn’t help. All the other guys are well above average efficiency – that’s why their scor
This was painful for me to read. You’ve officially pegged Ellis as a detriment to his team and an inferior guard to the aforementioned players because his TS% has been lower than theirs this season. And what’s more, you’ve completely overlooked the other stats (rpg, apg, n spg, etc.) I’ve mentioned. Ellis is a liability to you, now.
This is hateful…
I’ll say I worded it that way because once upon a time Monta was efficient – when Baron was here, his scoring was very helpful. It seems Monta’s best role is an off the ball complementary player – he’s a very, very useful player doing that. As an on the ball/primary ballhandler, unless we see some dramatic improvement, he’s the type of player who’s best fit is to be the best player on a bad team. In other words, volume scorer…
I’m hopeful we see a little more of the past Monta and a little less of the present Monta (at least offensively, I like Monta’s increased effort defensively this year).
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
Do you know what a volume scorer is?
I love Monta, but that’s what he is
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:51 PM PST up reply actions
Sure, it' basically what Kobe's been
over the course of his career. Which is to say, someone who takes a lot of shots to get a lot of points. It’s not exactly rocket science. But I mean, Kobe’s always had MUCH more of a supporting cast than Ellis this year. As have all the other volume shooters in the league.
Kobe scores at average or above average efficiency
as the number one guy, whereas Monta can’t even do that.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
I’m talking about the value of scoring points. A players scoring contributes to his teams offensive success based on how efficiently he scores and how much he scores. Unfortunately, the current version of Monta isn’t efficient.
Monta’s other stats you talked about also are inflated by his PT – something he should be credited for to a degree, but much like the “replacement level” concept we use in baseball, if he wasn’t playing those minutes, someone else would be racking up some amount of value in his place, so that inflation is only meaningful to a certain degree. And his stats are decent but still don’t make up for his inefficient scoring and the fact that he’s the worst defender of that bunch…
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
And there u have it. Monta’s season stats relative to some players who secured reserve spots ahead of him
What about turnovers? How do they rate on that? and How about that big intangible of taking over and producing wins?
I was pretty po’d that they took Billups over rmontay till Billips put in about 9 three’s to dis-mantle the lakers, then I got to thinking “could Montay ever do that?” .
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 2:34 PM PST up reply actions
OK, I've been warned.
Apparently, many posters have been flagging me. I don’t understand what I’ve done wrong…
“What about turnovers? How do they rate on that? and How about that big intangible of taking over and producing wins?”
Again, I think it’s safe to say that when the Warriors go back to not being a D-League team, Ellis’ stats (from efficiency to turnovers) and his teams’ record will see significant improvement. Hopefully by next season. ;)
People don't like
people that post with an agenda and spout nonsense like “Monta is the modern day incarnation of Michael Jordan.”
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
The messed up thing about that is,
if you look at my first post on this thread, way, way above (my address to the Warriors’ management), you’ll see that my intent in posting here was never to broach my feelings on that subject in even the most remotest form.
In fact, it wasn’t until someone eventually provoked me by directly asking me something to the effect of “You think he (Ellis) can be as good as Jordan” (MJ5) or “What makes you think he can be compared to Jordan?” (DubsFan408) that I addressed my (well-known) feelings on the subject.
Hell, I even explicitly mentioned to monta.da.boss (way up above) when I suspected that the subject of the thread could be shifting to an Ellis/Jordan tangent that I didn’t feel like getting everyone irritated or upset with my posts. And yet, it ended up turning out that way, anyway.
Geez, I had such good intentions n now I’m getting warnings. What can I do if I’m just responding to people pressing me on the issue?
Warnings..
I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Just make sure you read them carefully and do your best to follow any directions given. It’s just a way of keeping things running smoothly here.
"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."
You won't get banned unless
you accumulate a couple more over time.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
and another thing
monta averages 26 is really not that special. a ton of guys could average 26 on our team getting monta’s minutes and in our system with so many possessions and with our style of play
by MJ5 on Feb 7, 2010 7:38 PM PST up reply actions
What's your point?
Doug Collins’ 80’s Bulls’ teams (which featured Michael Jordan) had basically the same run and gun system…
By the way, Monta's scoring hasn't plateued...
he’s gonna end up hovering around 30 ppg (much like Rookie Jordan did) by season’s end in this, his first season as the Warriors’ focal point. Another interesting little Monta/Michael comparison.
No
The bulls played the slowest pace in the league. We play the fastest pace in the league. Granted, the league is slower now, than it was back then, but their pace was around 93-94. We are 101.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 8:02 PM PST up reply actions
I do believe
the Bulls gave up a lot of points during the Doug Collins years. I mean, they weren’t a very consistent team in those years. Doug didn’t want to play halfcourt games because outside of isolating Jordan at the wing, they had no reliable go-to moves or strategies. The Bulls scored A LOT of fastbreak points in the game. Doug often liked to have Michael and Scottie play off their man on defense to sneak up on the opposing center from the weak side for a block, and they’d be off to the races. Michael was great at that. Plus, he and Scottie had really quick hands in general.
I don’t get where you are going. Is this a ‘how great Mj’ conversation or your pointless " Monta is as good as MJ" conversation. What does the post above have anything to do with Monta?
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 8:26 PM PST up reply actions
Just saying
the Bulls had a similar system to the Dubs today, with their emphasis on fastbreak points and opportunities.
Well, they didn’t . Our pace is much faster than theirs and their defense was much better.
This is so pointless.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
Our pace is much faster than theirs and their defense was much better
haha, I doubt this kid was even born when MJ was playing?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 9:28 PM PST up reply actions
I wasn’t. But that doesn’t mean i can look up stats.
I never saw Willie Mays play, but i can say he was one of the greatest baseball players of all time.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
But that doesn’t mean icancan’t look up stats.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 9:36 PM PST up reply actions
I never saw Willie Mays play, but i can say he was one of the greatest baseball players of all time.
and Montay is not as good as him either.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 9:47 PM PST up reply actions
I never said that.
i was just comparing legends like Mays and jordan, and that i can recognize their legend, even if i never saw them play.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 9:55 PM PST up reply actions
i was just comparing legends like Mays and jordan, and that i can recognize their legend, even if i never saw them play.
Ok, but now you are watching them play and you should recognize that the legend of today is Lebron and not Montay?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 10:15 PM PST up reply actions
as if to further illustrate a long point I just made on a post response below,
Monta is SO unknown, people still haven’t figured out how to SPELL HIS NAME the right way. It’s not Monte, which I commonly see… or Montay. Dude, you should be ashamed of yourself.
When did i ever say Monta was the modern day legend. I have been saying exactly the opposite. Read my comments.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 10:19 PM PST up reply actions
When did i ever say Monta was the modern day legend. I have been saying exactly the opposite. Read my comments.
Haha, maybe I got you rugrats mixed up? Which one of you said Montay reminded him of MJ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 10:28 PM PST up reply actions
i think thats Max.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
Ok Peace out
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
Monta didn't make the All-Star Game
If he can’t make the allstar team no matter what the reason doesn’t that tell you he’s no MJ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 7:43 PM PST up reply actions
No,
it just tells me that Monta had the GRAND misfortune to be having his first Superstar season the same year that the NBA decided that a player’s team’s record should be counted as a qualification for eligibility… it’s really a mewt point at this time, since Monta’s gonna replace Roy anyway. Watch him shine in Dallas. ;)
If Monta was the modern day MJ
he wouldn’t just be an All Star, he’d be on the All NBA 1st Team
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:30 PM PST up reply actions
And we would be a playoff team.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:22 PM PST up reply actions
for the record, MJ was always a fan vote...
so the fact that Ellis’ games don’t get enough national exposure to draw attention from fans really doesn’t reflect badly on him whatsoever. If fans KNEW who he was, and he WASN’T the NBA’s Best Kept Secret, he’d probably get a lot more fan votes. Enough that he was a runner-up to Kobe (whom I don’t think he’ll pass for the starting spot until Kobe retires).
He doesn’t get that much exposure because he, as in Monta Ellis, isn’t that good (compared to Jordan). Do you know why people like Jordan, LeBron, and Kobe get so much national exposure? Because of what they can do.
Kobe gets a lot of exposure being the best player in the NBA. Personally I think LeBron is a lot better, but Kobe deserves some praise. He’s known for his clutch baskets, helping the Lakers win 4 championships, his circus shots, and the 81 points.
Jordan is Jordan, no need to explain.
LeBron is just an animal. How many 6’8 athletes do you see with that kind of body run that fast? He’s an excellent passer, defender, scorer, play maker, anything you say, he can do.
Guys like them get a lot of exposure because of how good they are. Really, Monta is only a scorer. Not only that, but he doesn’t even help this team win. He is a good player no doubt, but comparing him to Jordan or even Dwyane Wade is just not compatible. And Monta won’t be voted to start an all star game when Kobe retires because there’s Brandon Roy. Roy is the 3rd best SG in the league. He’s stats aren’t that great, but his team wins because of his big contribution. I’d take Roy over Ellis any day.
And Monta won’t be voted to start an all star game when Kobe retires because there’s Brandon Roy.
and Tyreke Evans and Westbrook are also coming up so Montay will have his work cut out for him.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 9:31 PM PST up reply actions
I disagree
I think Ellis will be the designated starting 2 when the clock has struck midnight on Kobe’s career. That’s not a knock on Roy either I just think that Ellis will be more popular, seeing as how his (much) more exciting highlight reel style of play lends his game to gain more mass appeal than Roy’s.
This might be your first legitimate point on this thread. Monta’s play has people thinking he is better than he is. He is an exciting player, but Roy is so much more effective.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 9:38 PM PST up reply actions
You're wrong, sir.
And as a Warriors fan, I’m surprised you would attribute a Warrior star’s lack of exposure/mass popularity/impact on the public conscience to their own shortcomings as a player. Come on, man. Is that why Baron Davis wasn’t an All-Star in 2008? Or why J. Rich never made it in in his Warriors career? Is that why the Dubs haven’t had an All-Star since Latrell Sprewell in 1997? Because they haven’t had good enough players??
The fact is, as one of the league’s perennial doormats of the last two decades (credit whatever front office failings or league conspiracy theories you’d like here), the Warriors have it rougher than any other organization in general. Even the Clippers have better league-wide known/supported players, given more people felt Chris Kaman was snubbed than Monta (and on an almost equally bad Clippers team, no less). This is no doubt a result of the fact over the last few years, the Clippers have been nationally televised A LOT more than the Warriors have. And the Clips suck…
As a matter of fact, correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure the Warriors have amassed a whopping total of one nationally televised broadcast(s) thus far this year (Vs Washington on ESPN). And if I recall correctly, Monta performed as beautifully in that game (30 points with clutch jumpers in a losing effort) as he has all season long. I bring this up because the irony of the fact that Ellis is (roughly) about as unknown a player as he is a spectacular one isn’t lost on me.
This is especially significant when you consider the fact that Ellis is arguably as much the most exciting player in the league as he is the NBA’s best kept secret. In my opinion, he compares (quite) favorably to anyone else in terms of sheer entertainment value per viewing. I mean, with just the vast array of moves Ellis uses to score (he has 1,000 moves), he’s a phenomenal athlete. And at 6’3" and 180 lbs, he’s doing it inside more than outside, challenging the Kevin Garnetts, the Dirk Nowitkis (82 total points in the last 2 meetings @ Dallas) and the Tim Duncans (77 total points in the last 2 meetings) of the world with each soaring drive to the paint inside (that rhymes).
Ellis gets to the cup more efficiently than even LeBron James or Dwight Howard. But it’s not just that. It’s the fact he puts on such a show while getting there. Note how many highlight moves he produces per game with his dazzling forays into the paint, with his athletic drives over the opposing team’s best shot-blocker (as often observed by Jim and Fitz). He did it against the Pacers, who were the top shot-blocking team at the time and made the game look like a personal showcase with his dances to the rim.
Ellis’ game is VERY easy on the eyes. Having said that, the stuff he’s done is VERY deserving of recognition. I mean, with each passing game, and each successive performance that he gets the crowd to “Ewwww” and “Ahhhh” (and Jim Barnett and John Fitzgerald to lose their minds on television over the “move with the extra something” they’ve just seen, EVERY game, he’s made it look EASY. Do you guys realize Ellis’ 42 points against the Spurs in November made him the only player besides Jordan to score at least 40 @ San Antonio in the Poppovich era?
I mean Ellis is an exciting performer, but he’s athletic as hell, too. Jim Barnett has called him the greatest EVER at converting a layup hopping off the wrong foot. Ellis excels at this going right or left too! My point is, Ellis is an exceptional athlete. He’s the Warriors’ savior. I read an article recently swooning over the idea that he was blossoming into the franchise’s first Superstar since RICK BARRY (article followed his 39-point game Vs Sacramento and was featured here). SUPERSTAR. Not merely good-to-very-good player (ala the likes of Baron Davis, Al Harrington, Steph Jackson, Antawn Jamison, Gilbert Arenas, etc.). It’s called “Monta Ellis, Superstar” for your reference.
That’s right. Ellis has been THAT special this season… it almost puts that whole lucrative-66-million-dollar-franchise-tag into perspective a little bit doesn’t it? So please, don’t come on here and try and insult mine or anyone else’s intelligence by suggesting that the reason for Ellis’ (a scoring machine’s) lack of nationwide popularity- in a league that over-values scoring and offensive brilliance- is because he isn’t on the level of the elite in the NBA (past or present), or he doesn’t deserve it, when you know DAMN well the Dubs organization has a monkey on its back Ellis has been tasked with lifting as the face… you know he’s currently the ONLY top 10 scorer not listed on one of the All-Star rosters, right??
Ellis is gonna put on a SHOW on the biggest of the biggest stages in Dallas, and the Warriors’ organization and its fans are gonna be so much better off for it. You should thank him, dude.
I’m confused at the purpose of the long post above.
This is all i’m going to say:
No one will challenge you if you like Monta as much as Jordan. People have odd choices for favorite players, and they don’t necessarily mean the best players.
But once you said the magic words " Monta is the modern MJ", people started to disregard your comments and you just continued to post more of this agenda.
It seems like you have the ability to construct long, posts with decent grammar. Thats a step in the right direction. Now, step back for a little bit, and let people explain why you are wrong, and be humbled by the experience.
I was a terrible poster a year ago. I was a Belinelli addict. I made him out to be the best player on the team. I still like Belinelli a TON , but i realized alot of my points were not correct, and that i needed to look more closely at the stats and facts.
Maybe you could do that. I mean its pretty easy once you look at stats like WP. TS%, his volume of shots, defensive stats like blocks, steals, awards, that MJ is the greatest player in the last 40 years ( wilt doesn’t count… completely different league back then). So either you are saying Monta is the greatest player ever, or is close to being at the level. That is obviously not true, and i hope you realize that.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 10:29 PM PST up reply actions
my long post was directed towards DubsFan408,
not you. I’m not sure why it responded to you, man…
No, it didn’t respond to me. I just thought i’d give you some advice.
Your points may be ridiculous, but you don’t seem to have snark commentary back at people, so I thought i could just give you a few suggestions.
Check this out
Then check this out.
I think you’ll realize some things after comparing Jordan and Ellis.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
for the record, even though I wasn't trying to make a point to you directly,
I’m a Jordan stat junkie and I know how unique his stats are for an NBA player (let alone a guard) and I’m not trying to say Ellis is Jordan’s equal. I don’t think he’s as good as Jordan. Maybe I could be clearer, here. What I mean to say is, insomuch as I feel Ellis’ game mirrors Jordan’s- for all the reasons I’ve touched on already- I feel Ellis is the closest thing we NBA fans in this era have to Jordan. ;)
Right...
Because Monta has 6 rings along with 6 Finals MVP right? Because Monta is an all star and he’s helping this team right? No one outside of this fan base/franchise even knows who Monta Ellis is. Tyreke Evans is even more popular than Monta (okay, maybe not true, but you get the point). Ellis is not the closes thing compared to Jordan. I personally think Kobe plays kind of similar to Jordan, but LeBron can be the next Jordan. What personally reminds you of Monta being like Jordan? I don’t see Monta helping this team win at all. His stats aren’t even that impressive considering the shots he takes and the amount of free throws he misses. Being compared to Iverson was nice enough, but compared to Jordan is pushing it.
No one outside of this fan base/franchise even knows who Monta Ellis is. Tyreke Evans is even more popular than Monta
Did you seriously just completely ignore the point I just made above about the Warriors’ lack of national exposure??
And
If Ellis was that good, don’t you think the Dubs would get the national exposure?
My Point is
If you think Monta is so good, why doesn’t he get the exposure then? You say he’s compatible to Jordan, but if he really was that good, wouldn’t he be actually known and wouldn’t the Warriors be a better team? Players get exposure because they are that good and if you think Monta doesn’t get enough exposure, then he really isn’t that good is he.
Are you ignoring the fact
that Ellis is only 24-years old and in his first season in the driver’s seat of the franchise? Is that why you implied that he doesn’t have 6 rings or 6 Finals MVP’s? Yea, he doesn’t have 5 regular season MVP’s either. He doesn’t even have a scoring title (let alone 10). New flash: Ellis is also a baby. He’s one of the youngest stars in the league.
Ellis is much more similar to MJ than Kobe insomuch as a) he’s (much) more adept than most at scoring inside-out because of his refined ability to get to the rim and play above the air there, b) he’s a much more entertaining player to watch than most, and c) much like MJ, Ellis’ bag of offensive tricks is 1,000-moves deep.
You say he’s compatible to Jordan, but if he really was that good, wouldn’t he be actually known and wouldn’t the Warriors be a better team
I just answered your question of public recognition very explicitly above. The answer is no. I explained it. Attention for a 2nd round high school draft pick will not come over night on the Warriors.
Also, Michael Jordan would be hard-pressed to get this team into the playoffs this year too if he only had 4-5 of his teammastes regularly. So I have to estimate the answer to your “woldn’t they be better” question is also no. Sorry.
But you say he’s THAT good, it doesn’t matter when he was drafted, you’re telling me that he’s compatible to one of the all time great players, so he should get the attention that the receive. And If he was this good and was drafted on in the second round, wouldn’t he get more exposure because of how much a shocker he was?
Ellis is more compatible to Jordan than Kobe is? How come I never see “The next Michael Jordan; Monta Ellis”? Because that doesn’t exists (only in your mind it does). Monta can’t really be compared to Jordan. They do some things similar, but it doesn’t mean that they are the same type of player. Kobe is much more compatible to MJ than Monta is. They’re both the same size, same position, both explosive players (not saying Monta isn’t), both have a championship/MVP/Finals MVP, shooting similarities, etc…I don’t see the point in comparing Ellis to the all time greats. Monta isn’t a top 10 player in the NBA, so why should he be compared to arguably the greatest NBA player ever? Monta’s defense is nothing compared to Jordan, or even Kobe for that matter. His shooting % might come closer to Jordan than Kobe, but not the amount of points. Comparing Ellis to Jordan is just pushing it. What’s next, Biedrins is the next Wilt Chamberlain?
They’re both the same size, same position, both explosive players (not saying Monta isn’t)
Monta is, much like Jordan, A LOT more explosive than Bryant. How could you not see that with how much more he gets to the rim at will? You think Kobe’s never gotten to the rim at the clip that Ellis has this season because he PREFERS to shoot the jump shot from distance, where he’s never been among the most efficient perimeter players??
Ellis like MJ, is a MUCH better driver than Kobe. This is also because, much like Jordan, Monta is MUCH quicker than Kobe. Kobe’s never had a first step as quick as Ellis’ is today. Ellis is, much like Jordan was, the quickest player in the league (Nevermind the fact that his accleration from a first step is second to none among active players).
Ellis like MJ, is also MUCH more athletic than Kobe at his best! Mid 00’s Kobe isn’t even on Ellis’ current level, athletically speaking! He has 1,000 moves man. It’s always something new with him (Ellis).
Ellis like MJ, jumps higher than Kobe (today or ever). Haven’t you noticed that Ellis can get his head level with the rim on a tomahawk jam? Ellis is 6’3".
Good call on the FG% efficiency. Ellis, like MJ, has blown Kobe away in this department for his career as well. Kobe has won more championships and individual awards, sure. He’s also been in the league NINE more years! What are you trying to say? That Ellis can’t win as many regular season MVP’s (1) or Finals MVP’s (1), or even scoring titles (2) as Kobe has if his career lasts as long as Kobe’s? Even though he’s on pace to win his first scoring title THIS year??
You gotta admit! Kobe hasn’t exactly set the bar very high for Monta, huh!?
Kobe Bryant was an athletic freak when he came into the league.
Bryant and Jordan had almost exactly the same game, but Jordan was better.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions
I'll say,
Kobe couldn’t produce anything off the bench as a rookie while MJ led the league in points scored and broke Bulls single season franchise records in virtually every category.
Kobe was an 18 year old rookie
He didn’t start producing for a few years, but his style of play was as similar to Michael Jordan’s as any player ever.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:40 AM PST up reply actions
Same game=/=same production
Michael’s production puts every player ever to shame.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:40 AM PST up reply actions
HS vs College
Kobe was drafted right out of high school at 17 I think, while Jordan was drafted after his junior year of college. Jordan was the 3rd pick while Kobe was the 13th. Why are you really comparing the early careers of Kobe to Jordan’s?
Why are you really comparing the early careers of Kobe to Jordan’s?
That’s interesting. I remember when MJ left and they were saying Kobe was the new superstar replacement and the first time I saw him play it was like “No way is this kid gonna ever be the new MJ” It was apparent right away so that’s why Wall is so intriguing cause he looks better than Kobe did his rookie year.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 2:57 PM PST up reply actions
I’ll have to disagree. As in a poor, poor, poor mans version of Jordan.
Kobe isn’t near the efficiency, and defense that Jordan puts on.
I don’t get why Kobe has been an All-NBA defense award winner. Nothing suggests he is better than a good defender.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:25 PM PST up reply actions
Kobe is a very good defender when he puts the effort in, as good a wing defender as there is in the league. The only problem is he rarely puts the effort in to be anything but passable….
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 6:31 PM PST up reply actions
Well, thats kinda my point. He has some pretty good tools, and ability, but i don’t see him being better than Ronnie Brewer is on defense, and Ronnie Brewer isn’t an all NBA team defense.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 6:54 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t even know what to say to your delusions that Kobe wasn’t one of the elite athletes in the NBA in his physical prime. In the late ’90’s early 00’s, Kobe was a pretty ridiculous athlete. Keep in mind that players are physically at their peak in their early to mid 20’s – that’s not when their basketball ability is at its peak, but when their athleticism is. There’s a reason Kobe won a dunk contest, he did have that first quick step, when he first came into the league, he was very adept at getting to the rim, he could jump as well as anyone else in the league….yeah, Kobe settles for a lot of jumpers now (and it’s why he’s not as effective as he should be), but you’re flat out wrong with your assertions about his athleticism. Go youtube some of his early decade dunk highlights.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:27 AM PST up reply actions
Kobe was never a good in-game dunker,
unless you’re talking about his 360 windmills on the break.
You keep saying compatible
but I think you mean comparable.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:35 AM PST up reply actions
Ellis excels at this going right or left too!
I don’t think you’ve been watching him closely. He can’t dribble with his left hand. Flat out can’t do it. It’s embarassing to watch. Sure, he can cross over to it for a dribble or two, but keep a close eye over the next few games on how often he uses his left hand as his primary ballhandling hand offensively.
Also, superstars win games. While just holding a teams record against a player is unfair, it stands to reason if a player is really doing things that help his team win on a truly superstar level, his team won’t have the third worst record in the league. We might not be that good still, but if Monta was really deserving of an all-star spot, we’d have more than 13 wins.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
He can’t dribble with his left hand.
I’ve seen A LOT of Monta Ellis games and have never once discovered this to be half as serious an issue as you’ve consistently made it out to be on this site. Stop slandering the man. He’s a very capable ball-handler and penetrates better than anyone else in the league. Most of his turnovers come off of questionable offensive foul calls.
He’s a very capable ball-handler and penetrates better than anyone else in the league.
See, this is just ridiculous. Lebron James. Dwayne Wade. Tony Parker. Rajon Rondo. Chris Paul. Steve Nash. Better than anyone else in the league? Hardly. His turnovers come from a lot of things – questionable offensive foul calls are his fault just like anything else, but they come from those, they come from bad passes, they come from him just flat out losing control of the ball….
Seriously, watch closely, and look for how often he actually uses his left hand as his primary hand, anything more than just dribbling once or twice off a crossover. You’ll find it’s not very often.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
Maybe, maybe not (no idea if that stat exists online anywhere), but all those guys are much more effective when they drive, in terms of efficiency, not turning the ball over, racking up assists….the things that contribute to winning basketball.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 2:51 PM PST up reply actions
Like I said,
Ellis is just tremedous when he decides to penetrate to the rim. This is how he either gets between 12-13 of his ppg or how he gets most of his assists on kick-outs to open shooters. Just that Ellis is so quick that he often puts himself in situations when the defense is trying to get set to draw a charge, and, because of his warp speed, the refs often end up forced to make a call that could go either way. Sometimes, it doesn’t favor Ellis.
He's not number one anymore
but I think he’s up there. Some players passed him up, I think.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Houston and Portland drafted for what they NEEDED
But I can guarantee that if they thought Jordan was that much better than their picks they would have picked him and then traded one of their players for the center they needed and came out ahead.
Now if you think Wall is not any better quality than another player in the draft that happens to play a position we need then that’s a different matter. If they are close in talent then pick for position but if they are not pick for ultimate value.
Let’s say you have a honda and a toyota, both sports cars and you need a truck. Your rich grandpa offers you the choice of a chevy pickup or a Ferrari . Which would you pick? Wouldn’t it be worth taking the Ferrari and deciding which of the 3 sports cars to sell to buy a truck?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
Well, like anyone else
that could’ve had a crystal ball in the early 80’s that told them that Michael would become the greatest player of all time, I’m sure either Houston or Portland would’ve gone against their successful* strategy of drafting for need, too. Having said that, putting aside all that “nobody could’ve predicted how good Jordan would become in the NBA” stuff, the bottom line is, GMs understood Jordan was a Beast at the time of the draft because he had already been the best all-around player in the draft since he’d been a sophomore.
It was well-understood that MJ was a dynamic scorer on draft night 1984 when the time came to make the decisions. Hell, even after drafting him, the Bulls’ GM Rod Thorn declared something to the effect of “I’m just sorry he’s not a Center”, which goes to show you that if they’d had the chance, the Bulls would’ve looked to address their (terrible) center situation by drafting Olajuwon. Having said that, as (scary) good as MJ was, his college greatness didn’t deter either the Houston or Portland Gms from deciding that they had to stick to their picks, for the sake of filling in the holes their rosters had.
I'm a little confused why you mentioned them as a good example of drafting for need
because this is exactly why you don’t draft for need.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:35 PM PST up reply actions
Your logic seems a little convoluted here. Drafting a big man over a small man isn’t necessarily “drafting for need”. Bad teams should take BPA, but there’s a reason I stand by Portland taking Oden over Durant. Big men win. Sure, Durant was the more skilled player who looked like a better bet to be an impact player – but in the end, wings don’t impact the game as much as big men. That doesn’t make it a “need” pick, all it says is the team is trying to get a dominant big man, because a dominant big man is better than a dominant wing. That’s why Portland should have taken Oden, and it’s also why Portland wasn’t “drafting for need” when they did so.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:30 AM PST up reply actions
The point we rail against is passing up a clearly superior prospect for a lesser one at a position of need. The point with Oden is there’s a very good argument he WAS the superior prospect.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:41 PM PST up reply actions
Oden would not have been taken by Portland if they had
Yao Ming or Pau Gasol. Think about it.
And I probably would have taken Durant, but it’s still arguing different things – even though I think Oden was the better prospect, they’re close enough that I would have been fine passing him for Durant. It’s not like the current case where Wall is a super prospect that’s head and shoulders above everyone else.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
they’re close enough that I would have been fine passing him for Durant.
There was a lot of thought put into that pick. They talked about it for a long time and the consensus was they couldn’t go wrong either way. Everyone knew Durant was likely to be as good as Oden so Okla was probably happy that Portland had to make the choice and risk looking bad later :>)
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 2:42 PM PST up reply actions
yeah
Wait, didn’t the Spurs draft Tim Duncan when they already had some guy named David Robinson? That worked out pretty well for them, didn’t it?
"We Deserve"
...
Celtics managed OK with Parish/McHale/Walton, Rockets with Sampson/Olajuwon, Lakers with Pau/Bynum, etc. Yeah, I think I could live with a team built around two of Oden/Gasol/Yao. Indeed, assuming 100% health, I’d guess a team with any two of those guys is a lock to win 50 games, even with complete crap surrounding them. Throw in one really good guard or wing (say, the level of Roy or Iguodala or Nash or Parker), and I’d probably put my money on that team to go all the way.
There will be no extra point!
Its better to have a surplus of big men, than a surplus of wings.
Most teams that have great bigs are better than teams with multiple good wings.
Its a reason why a team like the We Believe Warriors weren’t as good as a team like the Spurs….etc.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:29 PM PST up reply actions
When one of those guards is named Monta Ellis,
it’s not a very good move I don’t think.
The Dream was the consensus number one
the Trailblazers drafted for need and got rocked by missing out on the GOAT.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:25 PM PST up reply actions
Sorry,
Jordan had made the much bigger splash in College his last 2 seasons…
Krazee, your example proves the opposite of your point.
It shows that drafting a player like Bowie for need (which is what happened!) was a mistake, instead of taking MJ.
by freerandolph on Feb 8, 2010 12:04 AM PST up reply actions
the point is
neither Houston or Portland NEEDED a guard. Portland was clearly set to compete with Clyde Drexler who consistently led them to the Finals and Houston obviously was in need of a center. And they got a damn good one who led them to championships. However, if what you guys are saying about GM’s having to take the BEST player at any and all costs and then worrying about “figuring it out later” is true, it follows that Houston (or Portland) would have taken Michael Jordan since he was the unnainimous College Player and ACC Player of the Year his last 2 seasons, no?
Krazee you're crazy...
No one is saying a GM has to take the best player, we are just saying thats what we think the best thing to do is. In your example, Portland would obviously have been better off taking Jordan then Bowie, and as you say Jordan was the best player available. YOUR EXAMPLE DISPROVES WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY!
by freerandolph on Feb 8, 2010 12:11 AM PST up reply actions
You've misunderstood me,
I’m promoting drafting for need by illustrating how little Houston or Portland actually regretted not taking the player (Jordan) in the position they didn’t need (shooting guard). It was a happy ending for Houston and Portland. Houston won championships with Hakeem. Portland went to Conference Finals and Finals with Clyde. They did it by drafting for their needs. It worked. Happy ending.
Portland didn't regret not drafting the GOAT?
Draft Jordan; trade Clyde or Jordan. Get something good for him instead of Sam Bowie, who was basically a bag of chips.
You don’t think that Portland would have rather had 6 Finals wins instead of 1 Finals appearance?
Sam Bowie is arguably the single biggest draft bust in the history of the NBA. He wasn’t very good, and he was taken ahead of the Greatest Of All Time. Hakeem is a different story- he was the consensus number one overall and was a very very good player. Sam Bowie wasn’t even as good as Joe Smith.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:39 AM PST up reply actions
Portland made it to the Finals twice*
and it’s hard to dismiss not taking Jordan just because Bowie went nowhere. Not getting to the Finals 6 times with the best player Vs twice should not be a legitimate rubric on which to base that the Warriors (or any GM) would be better off taking the best player in this draft (or any) simply because MJ, as the greatest player to ever play, led his team to more success within an 8-year span, than pretty much any other team ever. Sorry, but if you gave me those same odds, and said I could get not take Wall and still get to the the Finals at least twice with Monta, I’d take them.
So you're telling me that they shouldn't have drafted Jordan and traded him for a top-tier center?
Get it through your thick skull- you draft the best player and then trade to make it fit your personnel.
Lets say that it’s 2003. The Celtics already have Paul Pierce, but they somehow luck into the first pick.
Do they pass on LeBron James? NO!
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:47 AM PST up reply actions
If that's the be-all/end-all,
why didn’t Houston or Portland do that in 1984? Because the GM’s aren’t as qualified as u are?
Sometimes GMs make bad mistakes
Sam Bowie, Darko, Joe Smith, Kwame Brown.
They are still people.
Take a look at Bowie’s stats/career trajectory- he never averaged a double-double. He also left the Trailblazers after the 88-89 season, so he wasn’t at all involved in the success of the team. He was just a wasted draft pick.
They could have taken Charles Barkley ahead of him, but they didn’t.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/060427
There is a reason that the Sam Bowie pick is the number one worst draft pick of all time according to ESPN.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 12:53 AM PST up reply actions
it follows that Houston (or Portland) would have taken Michael Jordan since he was the unnainimous College Player and ACC Player of the Year his last 2 seasons, no?
That doesn’t make Jordan the better prospect. Ceteris paribus, getting a big man is better than getting a wing. Just taking a C doesn’t make it a “need” pick.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
Clearly, in the case of either Houston and Portland,
MJ was not the best prospect. Regardless of how much he may have been the best player. That’s what I’m saying.
Ok, I do think big men are more valuable than wings, increasing their value as prospects.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Either way,
the Dubs are already set in their backcourt situation with Curry and Ellis and if what they need is a 3 or someone who’ll give them size, then I propose that they shouldn’t go after John Wall. It’s analogous to what I just pointed out above. GM’s drafting for need is nothing unusual or unprofessional.
What if we get 1st pick and trade it right away for a good SF?
by A2mm2o on Feb 7, 2010 2:48 PM PST up reply actions
we do have an anonymous inside source telling us the truth:
One player said, “I don’t get it,” and another said, “It doesn’t matter. No one wants to come here anyway.”
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/02/06/SPUD1BTUF3.DTL#ixzz0etRS6Kmm
Well GSOM must be reaching some grand heights...
To have such ‘independent’ supporters of the Warriors FO spending so much time on this particular thread… quite amusing really.
Jan 16 2010 - Onlxn quote on Stephen Curry - "one of the worst playmakers in basketball"
Riley is an idiot!
You know what I really love, I really love the Lacoste Sport Sweat suit man. The one that looks like the orange that's the same color as fruit loop orange! Houses like clovers, houses like clovers whatever that man says! Twinkle, Stars, Diamonds, Emeralds. We got every color bruh! It's fu@#in crazy man. This fool walked up to me the other day, and was like blood, where did you get them at yo? What, you made them? I said, man we don't make nothin man! We don't make nothin man. We just make your girl give h%@d. When she sees these on sight. She never thought they come in size twelves man. I wear size twelves man!
WALL IS NOT THE BEST PLAYER IN COLLEGE!!!!
Look at the Numbers ppl.Its Evan Turner.ppl are loving John Wall based on his potential.Evan Turner is already what we need him 2 be.John Wall is a project that 2 or 3 years down the line ppl think could be the next Chris Paul but Evan Turner right now is the mix between Penny Hardaway and Scottie Pippen.This years college player of the year is Evan Turner.
Not all of us fans want John Wall...
But there is no doubt the kid looks good.
"LOVE WARRIORS - HATE COHAN" - Sell The Team!
by BritWarriorGSW on Feb 7, 2010 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
What are you talking about?
Would you pass on Derrick Rose for OJ Mayo or Kevin Love because you just have a ridiculous, non fact-based opinion of Rose.
Yes, maybe Turner is the player of the year, but guess what, he’s barely better than Wall is now, and hes 2-3 years older. Wall’s game translates better to the NBA, and he plays a position of need.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 5:47 PM PST up reply actions
The warriors need a wing (or a strong low post presence) more than a pg, unless you think curry and monta are the weak links on the team.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 9, 2010 8:51 PM PST up reply actions
We can't just gib the gif of a supahsta
we have to get one.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 9, 2010 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
True. We need great players, at any position. PG is not really a position of need though.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 10, 2010 1:28 AM PST up reply actions
It is not a position of need, but would you take Andris Biedrins over Chris Paul because point guard isn't a "position of need"?
by freerandolph on Feb 10, 2010 10:02 AM PST up reply actions
I didn’t say we shouldn’t get the best player. I said PG wasn’t a position of need. If there was a John-Wall equal talent at wing I would pick him.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 10, 2010 5:18 PM PST up reply actions
Because he is a better scorer, defender, passer, and rebounder than Curry. It’s irrelevant that Curry can shoot 3’s better if Wall is better at everything else.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 5:44 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If Wall is not a better shooter or Passer than Curry is why do we need him?
Because he has more value. We could draft him and trade him or draft him and keep him and come out ahead either way. When picking free assets it’s always smart to take the most valuable even if you already have a warehouse full of them.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
Deng is not a option
Id rather have John Salmons.Deng’s contract will make sure we never get a legitimate Big.Dude is highly overpaid.Correct me if im wrong but i think he makes more than Danny Granger.
Highly overpaid
he averages 18 pts, 7 rebounds, a block, a steal, and to assists. he also shoots 47 percent from the field and 40 percent from behind 3 pt. Tell me how much do you think he is worth. Also take in that he is 25.
by MJ5 on Feb 7, 2010 7:33 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, he got his contract after his HUGE season a few years ago
I really really like Deng
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
Wall can only Score better than Curry in the Paint.He does not have a better mid-range shot than curry and he is not a better passer than Curry is.
Trust me, Curry can barely get any assists in this league. I’m doubting Wall can’t get over 5 assist per game.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 5:57 PM PST up reply actions
You don’t expect Curry to improve on his rookie assist totals at all? That’s all he has to do to get over 5.
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 9, 2010 8:53 PM PST up reply actions
Thats all he has to do to be better than Curry at passing…
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 9, 2010 9:15 PM PST up reply actions
Curry is good, but Wall is a better prospect! Its ridiculous not to see that. Get off it man!
by freerandolph on Feb 9, 2010 10:18 PM PST up reply actions
noone said he isnt, I just think Curry is capable of 6 maybe 7 per game in the future
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Feb 10, 2010 1:19 AM PST up reply actions
Curry doesn't have the physical gifts that Wall does
which is why Wall is considered a top-tier prospect and Curry isn’t.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 9, 2010 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
I’d take a guy that can score in the paint than one who shoots mid range jumpers any day. I’d also take the worse passer who’s actually athletic enough to get people so open he only has to make an easy pass for an assist. Yeah, I’d much rather have John Wall than Curry.
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
Like i said before Id compare turners game more to scottie pippen or penny hardaway so if u ask me would i Draft Pip or Penny Hardaway of Derrick Rose when i already have 2 good guards.Yes i would.
It's not Scottie or Penny vs Rose
it’s Evan Turner vs John Wall, who is as much like Wade as he is like Rose.
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 7, 2010 11:40 PM PST up reply actions
Reading some of the comments in this post is painful.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Feb 7, 2010 7:39 PM PST reply actions
Ok
I am not sure I would cut an expiring contract. With so many teams trying to free up their salary cap for 2010 free agency, I am sure Claxton could have been traded for a guy like Salmons, their salary match and Chicago traded for Devin Brown so they dont mind moving his salary for an expiring injury insured player like Claxton. I would wait until trade deadline and then cut him. If they wanted to cut someone, they had option between Hunter or George. Whats two weeks, we had a time playing with only 6 players, so cutting Hunter who barely plays anyways or George would not be a big deal.
Waaaarriors
Whats two weeks, we had a time playing with only 6 players, so cutting Hunter who barely plays anyways or George would not be a big deal.
Exactly ! and since the guards are well now we didn’t need KobeCarl if they wanted to keep the bigs.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 7, 2010 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
I’m glad we cut Speedy’s contract if we were going to acquire an overpaid mediocre player like Salmons, as you are suggesting.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 7, 2010 8:27 PM PST up reply actions
This is exactly my point!
What would we have done with his expiring contract?!?!? Get a mediocre player to add to our roster of mediocre players???
by freerandolph on Feb 8, 2010 12:15 AM PST up reply actions
ok
Did you hear the suspension Tyrus Thomas got from the Bulls, they clearly wanna move him, dont you think Claxton contract plus maybe CJ would have got us Tyrus Thomas???
Dude, anything can happen between now and trading deadline. My point it is a mistake to cut now.
Waaaarriors
First of all I don't want Thomas. He isn't very good, and we don't need to take on any more contracts of players we don't need.
Second of all, not anything can happen. We are not going to get a star. There is no way we will get a player that will make a big difference, and if we can do that I don’t even think not having Claxton’s contract will stop us from making any trade we would have been able to pull off…
by freerandolph on Feb 8, 2010 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Puff Daddy may have a point. Tyrus is a nice player, and an expiring if we don’t re-sign him.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 11:15 PM PST up reply actions
You being unreasonable
We might be losing AR for the rest of the season, Wright is an injury prone, Tyrus Thomas is better player then both of them, if we were to trade Claxton plus CJ for Tyrus Thomas, we getting a young hustler who fits Nelson system and might even be better then Wright and AR in the long run. I seriously disagree with you, we need good players doesnt mean we trade only for stars. No stars would come here unless they are crazy, but good players we can use. Even if u dont think Ty Thomas is not good, he is worth more then Radmanovic who we paying same money too. Keep that in mind.
Waaaarriors
Ty Thomas better than BW and AR…..nope…. my support stops there.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 11:48 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, he’s not as good as Wright or Randolph (and probably is less likely to improve substantially than them), but he is still a decent player we could definitely use, so….it is a fair point overall….
by Missing Barry on Feb 9, 2010 6:46 AM PST up reply actions
Awful move.
Another wasted move by the Warriors as we now get nothing back from trading away Jamal Crawford.
Their is no reason the team could have let go of any number of the d-leaguers on the roster (especially Hunter who doesn’t play) rather than hold onto Speedy’s contract and see what developed before the trade deadline.
This is just another pointless move by the front office to aquire these expiring contracts but never seem to properly use either the expiring money or the appeal of the contract to other teams to good use.
From what I read in the Chronicle today, the players seem defeated and we may see some awful basketball in the coming months.
The ONLY positive I see is this...
Warriors were not gonna use the expirings for trades BECAUSE Cohan is going to sell. We all know, you want the least amount of liabilities when you sell….
liabilities in this case r contracts. Bringing in another long term one would not help the sale (unless it was Lebron, Kobe etc. etc. which wasn’t going to happen). It’s also why there is alot of talk of maggette 4 expirings trade.
even this scenerio i just painted is hard to swallow…
Warriors were not gonna use the expirings for trades BECAUSE Cohan is going to sell.
You think the stars are aligning so Ellison buys the team and we draft Wall?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 8, 2010 11:01 AM PST up reply actions
i am positive we won';t get #1 pick unless Cohan leaves...
Stern will rig it for Ellison if he buys. I truly believe it’s rigged anyway. “oh lebron to cleveland”
I think that is a waste of arguing over whether or not we take Wall with a #1 pick that we most likely not have !
It would be much more interesting to argue about the value of the #3-5 prospects where we will probably actually pick so let take Wall out of the equation and see where that senerio takes us.
Did you know that the Nets will also not likely have the number one pick?
by Reverend_Randy on Feb 8, 2010 5:46 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah
the team with the worst record, has only a 25% chance of winning it.
Euro Players Rock! Go Warriors!
by monta.da.boss on Feb 8, 2010 5:50 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah well we can have that conversation later. Fantasizing about Wall right now is pretty much the only thing getting some of us through this season….
by Missing Barry on Feb 8, 2010 6:32 PM PST up reply actions
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