ESPN's Hollinger calls Ellis Overrated

You see instances were Monta might not look Curry’s way when bringing the ball down or look upset when he is passed up by Curry for Curry’s own shot, but I’ve also seen instances were Monta gives him a pat on the back or thanks him for a pass.

Ellis used poor judgement Summer ‘08. And Monta is honoring his contractual commitment to the Warriors, as well he should. But after that whole Stephen Jackson thing played itself out the way it did, I became convinced they very same thing could’ve happened with Monta. Though it’s uncommon for a player with such a long term contract to whine their way to another team, I feel that when it actually happened with one unhappy player (in Jackson), that a new precedent had been set for greedy, me-first players unsatisfied with their team’s situations.

Also, I vividly recall constantly checking the internet for news of Monta’s status as a part of the team’s future when all this had just happened and Jax was (finally) traded because, in the aftermath of that whole Nelson/Ellis “fallout” after practice in New York, the Bay media had been making it out to seem like Ellis’ own future with the club was in doubt. When things got bad to the point that a rumor took legs (based on nothing at all) that Ellis’ agent was on the verge of meeting with the team’s management to discuss “Ellis future, or lack thereof” with the team, I became convinced (if just for a moment) that Ellis was next to go out the door because he didn’t fit with the team’s plans.

As an Ellis fan, this was the lowest moment for me because, feeling as I do that Ellis’ future as the cornerstone of the team is (very) bright with Jax finally out of the picture, I thought the worst thing that could’ve happened for Monta’s career (or the Warriors’ organization) was for Monta to split in a fashion similar to Jax’s departure… thankfully, my worst fears were quelled almost immediately after than when later that week I discovered an online article somewhere with excerpts from a recent Ellis’ interview in Boston (the Dubs were in town for their second game since the Jax trade) where Monta fervently dispelled those rumors of descension by passionately professing his love and loyalty to the Warriors’ organization for not only believing in and investing in his future potential, but for giving him such a chance to excel by declaring him the leader.

Anyway, ever since I read those excerpt from the interview (which included quotes where Ellis expressed his desire to “Retire a Warrior”), Monta’s “Warrior” efforts all through the season since have served to completely appease my love for him. He could’ve easily given Nelson and the organization the finger like Jackson did and said “Get me the hell out of here”, and instead he opted to become arguably the hardest-working player in an NBA uniform this year. And when you’re doing that for a Chris Cowan-run organization, and u consider all the “BS” (as Monta himself put it) that comes with that, I think that’s worth certain consideration.

I realize the dislike for kobe in general for this site but not to include him on the top five in the nba after all he’s accomplished does’nt make sense. Arguably he’s 1 or 2. He’s got the best jumpshot, turnaround, and fadeaways…almost unguardable.

no one else has a better chance of scoring.

This is not supported by evidence.

Nellie would change Monta’s offensive assignment if what you state as fact were true.

This assumes a) that Nellie could communicate it AND Monta would listen [either makes it fail] AND Monta has the ability to make good on a change in game plan or b) that Nellie cares at this point and isn’t just throwing in the towel and waiting to get back to Maui. I haven’t seen a whole lot to suggest that Nellie’s doing much this season other than rolling the ball out there.

this argument doesn’t hold all that much water, as Monta shoots at a higher fg% and 3fg% than Kobe Bryant,

You should try to understand what efficiency is and isn’t before making statements like you have.

Bryant is significantly more efficient than Monta both from the floor and overall. While Monta’s FG% and 3pt % are higher, his effective percentage is lower because his shot distribution is different. Monta shoots fewer 3s, so his insignificantly higher 3pt % doesn’t give him any boost. And his overall efficiency (points per possession utilized) is lower because he doesn’t get to the FT line as often.

Really, you should understand what efficiency measures actually matter before stating rather erroneously that an argument (that you do not appear to understand) holds no water.

…despite having his next best options be Steph Curry and Anthony Morrow…

Except one of the points we’ve been making is we a few other guys who are decent scorers. We would improve. You’re right that we still wouldn’t be good, I don’t think anyone is arguing we would be, but we’d be better. In a different situation, I think Monta would be more effective and potentially a step below an allstar selection, but just based on his production this year, he’s not even there. He hasn’t been all that good this year.

but in a pure game they’re not fouls

There is no such thing as a pure game, which is why it is bad defense to attempt things like that in the first place.

You’re right Watson hasn’t been as good last year as he has in the past, but he’s still a 36.5% 3 point shooter for his career, which is a better indicator of his actual talent level than just the 87 3’s he’s attempted so far this season. So, he’s a decent shooter, “among the best” might be overblown, but he’s still above average in overall efficiency, and his 3 point shooting adds to that….so it’s still a worthwhile option. Also – don’t discount Curry, his overall game might not have been that good initially, but the kid’s always been able to shoot. All of those guys are quality 3 point shooters and have shoot a good overall efficiency, so it stands to reason even if more shots bring their efficiency down somewhat, those shots are still better ones than Monta’s taking. Plus Biedrins!

Anyways, it’s not like we’re talking Al Jefferson here, a guy who’s never shown a glimpse of being a team player or efficient scorer – Monta does have some history to suggest he can do better, it’s just his performance this season hasn’t been good and if he wants to start contributing to our team winning, he’s going to have to change his game for the better, shoot less, pass more, cut down on his TO’s, and make sure he sustains his defensive effort on a consistent basis. We’ll see if that happens.

There are just so many other things in basketball. I mean, look at Chauncey Billups – so many people here say that he deserved that all-star spot over monta, and he’s a less efficient scorer, and really not a great passer. He’s great at managing a game, and how do you quantify that??

Again, you really should try to chose your examples better. It would help if you didn’t present things that were factually incorrect as evidence to begin with.

Chauncey’s stats suggest that he’s very, very good. His TS% is in the elite range (above .600 is really amazing). He is not a less efficient scorer. It’s not even close. (Please, please, please learn what it means to call someone an efficient scorer. You do not seem to understand this one). He’s a less efficient in overall FG%, but that’s a poor measure because it doesn’t take into account that many more of his FGs are made three pointers and it ignores his superior ability to get to the line. Only looking at stats, Billups is quite good, much, much better than Monta has been.

He’s great at managing a game, and how do you quantify that??

Assist / turnover ratio has somewhat of an indication on game management, especially for a PG and especially in the 4th quarter plus PPG And FG % has nothing to do with how efficeint he is.
 But I agree with the fact that stats are often used too freely and will always be one step back on the next game since they are based on “played games” … Great Indicators nonetheless especially for lazy observers !

my point was that people blindly look at stats. some stupid fans are quick to point out a player is better because of his ppg, and I think, to a lesser extent, the same is true with Hollinger’s stats

True, many people don’t understand the stats, and even most of Hollinger’s stats are garbage – if you listen to the people that do understand which are the right stats, you’ll find they put almost no weight into anything Hollinger says. That said, scoring efficiency is the one thing he talked about that really is very important, and the one takeaway from Hollinger’s article that is a very legitimate and worthwhile point. Something like Hollinger’s point rating is a garbage stat, but scoring efficiency is not. Use TS%, and use it well, because it’s incredibly important.

Kidd does make the All-star game fun, I definitely agree to that. You need that one guy out there the other guys respect and give the ball to, knowing he’s gonna give it back up, otherwise it’s just a bunch of stars fighting for their chance to go 1 on 1 with a defender who isn’t trying…

How can you contribute to winning on a losing team? Just in general?

Your team wins a significant number more games with you then they would with some other player in your place. If a player takes a 10 win team and turns them into a 25 win team just through his contributions, he’s certainly contributing a large degree of winning, despite the fact that a 25 win team still sucks.