Deron Williams punks Derrick Rose with fast break dunk
Two of the best young PGs in the league going head-to-head and the result isn't even close. D-Will sealed the deal with this ridiculous fast break dunk.
almost 2 years ago
oldenpolynice
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So...
Does that also mean that Steve Nash in his prime was a subpar athlete — because he couldn’t dunk on fellow point guards? And does that mean you’d rather have Nate Robinson than Curry — because he excels in the Slam Dunk Contest?
I’ll take a point guard with vision over hops any day, but that’s just me…
by Epicurious Cowboy on Mar 10, 2010 8:47 AM PST up reply actions
Does that also mean that Steve Nash in his prime was a subpar athlete
Actually, yes, Steve Nash is a subpar athlete, I’ve said it repeatedly.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 10:15 AM PST up reply actions
When he first came into the league
he was a pretty average athlete.
by Reverend_Randy on Mar 11, 2010 1:03 AM PST up reply actions
He didn't say he didn't like Curry
just that Curry is a subpar NBA athlete. I’d also prefer Curry to someone like Robinson, but that doesn’t stop Curry from being a subpar NBA athlete.
by Reverend_Randy on Mar 11, 2010 1:08 AM PST up reply actions
insert foot in mouth
8th alias and on probation
I promise to be kinder and gentler
by StinkyFingers on Mar 10, 2010 9:22 AM PST up reply actions
I'd say sub par NBA athlete.
But I bet everyone in the NBA was/is an athletic person. Well, maybe not Will Perdue.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
Yeah, I do mean compared to his NBA peers. Good point.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
I question that, because athleticism is partly defined by hand-eye coordination. Curry is one of the best ball-handlers in the NBA which largely makes up for lack of explosiveness. Furthermore, his release is as fast as any in the NBA and nearly as accurate as the best, which tells us something about how quickly his muscles, brain and external input interact. Furthermore, there are many in the NBA that are not nearly as fast as Curry, like Mehmet Okur, Zack Randolph or Marco Belinelli.
Granted, as far as starting point guards go, he is neither strong nor fast, but he is well above average as far as hand-eye coordination goes. If he gets his strength up, he’ll be a well above average NBA point guard average athleticism.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
he is well above average as far as hand-eye coordination goes. If he gets his strength up, he’ll be a well above average NBA point guard average athleticism.
Eh, I’d throw hand-eye coordination under “skills” personally, because it’s importance is mostly related to the basketball skillset – it affects how good a shooter you are, ballhandler, finisher, how well you catch in traffic etc, whereas it doesn’t really give you a purely physical edge. Otherwise you’d be double counting it as athleticism and crediting him with the shooting skill/quick release, the ball handling, etc.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
Oh yeah and I meant to say I wouldn’t take “getting his strength up” as a given. He doesn’t seem to have a large frame and seems pretty skinny naturally – it might be that to build his strength he’ll have to put on weight, which could make him slower and actually be a detriment to his game overall.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, muscle is much lighter than bone. The greater the muscle is in relation to bone, the more likely you’ll be faster as long as you’re not so heavy that you’re causing injury nor so big that you’re impeding movement.
Also, I wouldn’t consider someone athletic, if they are fast, strong and uncoordinated. I would definitely include hand-eye coordination as an aspect of athleticism, as it is muscle control, strongly related to the other aspects of athleticism.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Except when we’re talking about adding strength, it’s usually mostly focused on the upper body, because even if you don’t work out your legs you’re still using them all the time playing basketball. If you’re a guy that doesn’t lift, they have a lot less room for growth since you still do essentially work them out. Generally when professional athletes get bigger they slow down.
Sure, there are some aspects of coordination I’d lump into athleticism, like body control, something I mention somewhere in this post. But if the only benefit of it is to improve a “skill” (like Curry’s muscle memory/coordination that allows him to shoot as well as he does)…..well again, it’s already included when we call Curry a good shooter…..
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 6:25 PM PST up reply actions
How was this a troll?
Curry is a subpar NBA athlete. You’d have to be blind to not see it.
MB is also a regular poster on here, so we know he isn’t a troll. If you lurked a little more, you’d be able to figure that out.
by Reverend_Randy on Mar 11, 2010 1:10 AM PST up reply actions
And some people wonder what I’m talking about when I call Curry a subpar athlete…
What people are wording about is why you feel the need to rag on Curry to start with? I expect that out of Bevis and Butthead but not a fan of basketball….
Larry Bird was not a superior athlete.,.So what? just because Williams dunks over another player means ZIP!!!
Steve Nash is not a superior athlete and as far as I know can’t even dunk the ball? SO WHAT?
What’s your point? that you could tell Curry was not off the charts when it came to being a superior athlete?
You completely underrated Curry from the start,…saying that a Curry/Nash comparison was unthinkable…and now the whole league is talking about it…you woulden’t know talent if it jumped up and bit you on the forehead -)
Its clear
that the No. 1 asset a point guard needs to have is an athletic BRAIN! How much hops is like at the bottom of the list. Its whats between the ears BARRY!
8th alias and on probation
I promise to be kinder and gentler
by StinkyFingers on Mar 10, 2010 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
…
My comment was on the very specific subject of a players athleticism. It didn’t have anything to do with overall basketball ability. Let’s try staying on topic.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
You guys are reading into MB's comment way too much
he never said anything about liking or disliking Curry based on his lack of athleticism, just that he lacks athleticism. Some of you guys are too quick to shout “hater” (implicitly or explicitly).
by Reverend_Randy on Mar 11, 2010 1:11 AM PST up reply actions
My comment was on the very specific subject of a players athleticism. It didn’t have anything to do with overall basketball ability. Let’s try staying on topic.
You raised the issue of Curry’s athleticism, what did that have to do with DW dunk over Rose?
And since you keep raising the issue on Curry athleticism as a reason to diminish him as am elite PG let’s talk about how athletics your name sake was Mr Rick Barry? have you forgotten that he was not very fast? that he didn’t have terrific hang time? that he was not a high flyer? that there was no powerful almighty dunks in his highlight films? and yet he was one of the top players that ever played?
Your rant aganist Curry don’t hold water, he has the intangibles that many athletically gifted players don’t have…and one has to know the game of basketball to be able to see the whole picture…and BTW…I would not even say Curry was sub par….. Being Athletic has a variety of meanings, being agile, and being in sync with your body is all part of it… Curry is not a superior athlete but by no means is he sub par…
The point of raising it when we see what another PG in the league can do and easily contrast that to what we see out of Curry on a nightly basis – basically, Curry isn’t in the same league as Williams.
let’s talk about how athletics your name sake was Mr Rick Barry?
Barry Bonds was the greatest baseball player of all time.
I would not even say Curry was sub par
And this is exactly why I feel the need to bring it up in contrast to what other PG’s can do athletically. Curry is a subpar athlete, I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t see it. I’m not talking about Curry as an overall player – just his athleticism, one aspect of the game. In terms of the physical skills that contribute to basketball success – height, weight/strength, length, quickness, jumping ability, agility, explosiveness, etc, Curry just doesn’t compare to what most other starting PG’s have. I’ve gone through the list of every starting PG in the NBA in another thread (you can search for it if you want, search “Missing Barry conley” in the GSoM search function you can find it under comments) – there are only a handful that are comparable to Curry, the rest have a better combination of physical ability. Curry lacks quickness, he lacks explosiveness, he lacks speed, he’s skinny, he’s not much of a jumper, he’s very not long…he seems to have decent body control, and he has decent height for a PG, but he doesn’t have much else going for him physically.
If you really want to watch for these things, watch closely when he plays. When he gets the ball in transition, see if he turns on an extra gear to seperate/go by guys. Then watch what guys like Wade, Lebron, Monta, Parker, Paul do in transition. They fly and leave other players in their dust. Then watch in the half court when Curry drives. See where his defender is positioned relative to him – if he’s managed to leave the defender completely behind him, or if his man is still on his shoulder. On the pick and roll, if a big man is helping onto him when he drives, see how quickly he beats the big guy and again if he manages to leave him completely behind and out of the picture or if the big man is still there. Then watch what guys like Rondo, Aaron Brooks, Parker, Paul and Brandon Jennings do in those situations and look for a difference in how badly/quickly they beat the defender and whether the defender is still in the play or entirely behind the PG and out of the play.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, but how many uber athletic PG's are there in the league.
Williams, Rose, CP3, Rondo, Wall, Westbrook…
I can’t think of the rest right now. At the PG position, I think athleticism is the least important for that position. Although I would like to see Curry use his dribble and smarts to get to anywhere he wants on the court like Nash.
Warriors, Stupidest franchise in the league.
I told Randolph that Bill Russell would tell him to keep that ball in play and start the break.
RANDOLPH: "I know. But sometimes, you gotta let ‘em know."
(MT)
That’s why I listed them all in the other thread! :)
Other good athletes (even if they aren’t as athletic as the guys you listed): Jennings, Harris, Foye, Parker, Conley, Tyreke if you want to call him a PG for now….then you get guys like Baron who used to be an elite athlete and still has good size, Chauncey has good size, Brooks is exceptionally quick/fast, Stuckey has great size, Flynn’s a good athlete but undersized, Jameer Nelson is strong and quick, Kidd still has great size….the overall package isn’t amazing on all these guys, but they at least have some sort of standout athletic/physical quality.
In a scheme like the triangle, athleticism really isn’t all that important since the PG doesn’t have a big role anyways (at least not on the Bulls/Lakers versions of it we’ve seen), but it’s definitely important for any PG who has a bigger role in the offense – especially quickness. Top speed for a running team, size/strength for a team that likes to post up with it’s PG. Athleticism also matters a lot defensively. Maybe it is less important for a PG, but the basic idea is that those physical attributes still contribute in some way to how effective a basketball player is.
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 12:54 PM PST up reply actions
Curry is a subpar athlete, I don’t know what to tell you if you can’t see it.
This just posted on NBA.com….
“I think Stephen Curry might become the athletic version of Nas’ Illmatic for me. I’m not saying that Curry is going to become one of the greatest athletes in sports history the way Illmatic is, for me, one of the greatest albums of all-time”.
Your opinion is totally subjective and not what sports writers and coaches are saying around the league…..He is now being called by the league in general the ***Athletic*** version of Nash**much to your chagrin !!
There you have it from the real experts =) I had no idea that you were missing Barry Bonds so much? maybe you got on the wrong forum, the Giants forum is thata way >>>>>>>=)
Reply button helps keep a focused conversation going
Your opinion is totally subjective and not what sports writers and coaches are saying around the league
Well, aside from how questionable it is to call writers “real experts”, where are they saying these things, exactly? That quote is comparing Curry to a hip hop album, not talking about his basketball-related physical traits….
And yeah, opinions are subjective, but I’m at least going into detail on my observations and giving you the methods to look at to evaluate it for yourself to see if you actually see it differently…
(And yeah, I was on the Giants site long before I joined this one)….
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
And yeah, opinions are subjective, but I’m at least going into detail on my observations and giving you the methods to look at to evaluate it for yourself to see if you actually see it differently…
What’s the point? Is it that Curry is not the most athletic player in the league? big deal, he is being considered for ROY and has caught the attention of the coaches and the sports writters and you don’t count their opinions as worthwhile?
If we had D Williams you would most likely be complaining that he was no LBJ =) that’s how I’m reading this…You may have to much time on your hands my friend =)
Nah, just going in depth on evaluating one of our players. I have yet to knock his game as a whole, just trying to project his future growth forward and figure out how his physical traits will allow or prevent his game as a whole to improve and what kind of impact he can have at his ceiling, as well as what his most likely scenario is.
You may have to much time on your hands my friend
Can’t deny that, my work productivity has definitely gone down since I started posting on this site. Maybe I should stop….. ;)
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 1:55 PM PST up reply actions
Can’t deny that, my work productivity has definitely gone down since I started posting on this site. Maybe I should stop….. ;)
I head that, forums can be addicting and your not even getting paid for it =)
I see, so your just trying to project what kind of career he may have based on his pros and cons…
There is something about a gifted player like Curry that you just can’t put your finger on, it’s those intangibles, how can you weigh court vision? or the speed the brain calculates information..and even if someone’s not the quickest yet when there mind and body are in sync it seems they can be more effective…the PG takes more than just a good athlete, it takes a combination of things and what one lacks in one department can be made up in another…
So the bottom line is a career like Nash would be more than anyone expected, and from the looks of things he’s capable of developing into that kind of player….maybe not quite as dominant with the ball but close and a bit better scorer and a little better re-bounder…he’s got a long way t go to catch Nash but he’s well on his way to being that type of PG….I think he has great value right now…and barring injuries, with some decent players around him will have a stellar career….
If by some miracle the W’s got the #1 pick in the draft it would make for some interesting comparisons…..but with the way our luck has been running, if it wasn’t for bad luck, we wouldn’t have no luck at all ;)
One of the fundamental points I try to get at is….how can we project what a player will become? One of the more popular ways to do this seems to be picking a good player the guy reminds you of (in this case Nash), and just assume he’ll turn into that exact player. Curry reminds me of Nash, too. I see where that comparison comes from. He also reminds me a bit of Steve Kerr, of Mark Price, of Jose Calderon, etc. Just randomly picking one of those players he seems to play like doesn’t seem like it has any predictive value whatsoever. The better question is what do we know about players developments, and how did the players I named become as good (or as not good) as they did? For Nash, he started out a worse player than Curry….but then something magical happened, he improved probably more than anyone else in NBA history has at a late age, becoming the most skilled player I’ve ever seen. So, what does that mean for Curry? Well….that doesn’t seem like the most likely of developmental paths for someone to follow, so what else do we know that we can apply to Curry?
Well, for starters, we have aging curves. Apparently they don’t seem to function based on how long you’ve been in the NBA, but rather based on your age. Which essentially means you can’t compare Curry to guys like Jennings and Tyreke right now, you have to think of Curry compared to what Jennings and Tyreke are going to be 2 years from now, when they’re 21. Next, I like to look at skills – what skills do they possess, what skills are they likely to improve on, and by how much? This is where the athleticism part comes in for me – it’s just one of many factors that contribute to how good a player is, but it’s one a player can’t really improve upon in any substantial way. It’s always going to be a negative for Curry – not something he can’t overcome to be really good, but just one factor he doesn’t have going for him. Mostly it will probably limit his defense, but it will also limit his ability to beat defenders and put the defense at a disadvantage the way guys like Paul and Rondo do.
On the other hand, Curry is a great shooter, has shown good court vision, is a willing passer, a good ballhandler….he’s a good offensive player already. That puts a pretty high floor on what he’ll become given how high he’s started his rookie year out. The big areas for improve I see are consistency, especially with his passing (too many TO’s on non-fundamental passes, for instance), and decision making, both of which seem reasonable for him to improve a substantial amount. I expect an increase in his passing numbers as well as a nice decrease in turnovers, all the while he becomes a more crafty and effective offensive player. So we have a very good offensive PG, but between possible struggles to beat his man at times and his defensive shortcomings, he’s no Chris Paul, but that’s fine.
So based on what we know about how much players improve, and some specifics to Curry in terms of what his skillset is and what skills he is likely to improve on and what he can’t…..well, I’m just trying to project the likely scenario for him, which seems to me more of a Mark Price type player. Improving to Steve Nash levels is just so unlikely because almost no one improves that much. I don’t know what the future holds for Curry, but the best thing to do is bet with the odds, and that’s the case I’m making – that realistically, if we break down our analysis of Curry and put it into the context of how much NBA players tend to improve (especially given that Curry is higher up his aging curve than most rookies)….well, we can start to see a picture. We might not agree, but I think I’m making a reasonable case.
Basically, if you have objections, that’s fine, but put in some thought to “how do we project a player’s future?” What variables are meaningful for predicting future performance and development? Just picking someone Curry reminds you of and arguing he’s going to turn into that player just because he seems similar doesn’t cut it.
I’ll leave you with a quote from an SI article today:
His primary weakness is a frail physique that makes him seem smaller than his listed height of 6-3 and leaves him susceptible to hard traps on the perimeter.
“He’s not a terrific athlete who can finish over other guys,” the scout said. “And his defense is never going to be a strength” — though in Don Nelson’s system, who would know? — “but he makes up for it with his offense.”
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Meant to include the link for that quote:
by Missing Barry on Mar 10, 2010 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
Athleticism for a point guard is not a big factor
Curry will most likely last in the league longer than the likes of Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Tyreke Evans, etc. Those guys are all great athletes, but they are missing some things that are mad up by their athleticism. These guys are not great shooters and do not have as good of court vision as Curry. Once their athleticism wares down on them in their 30’s, they will lose a lot to their games. Curry on the other hand can last in the league for a long time becuase he has all the skills needed to play the position, and great shooters are always great shooters.






















