Q&A: Aran Smith (NBADraft.net)- If the Golden State Warriors got the #1 pick in 2010 NBA Draft..., Derrick Favors + Wes Johnson good "fits" for Warriors, John Wall vs LeBron James [Part 1 of 2]
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 12, 2010 1:15 PM PDT
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PrintOriginally posted at 4:45 AM PDT
Now that Don Nelson has the most wins for a head coach in NBA history, it's time to direct 100% of our collective golden attention to the 2010 NBA Draft. We mic'ed up longtime GSoM friend Aran Smith from the epic NBADraft.net for some early insights.
Jump like you're getting your vertical checked at The Portsmouth Invitational Tournament! (more on that later)
Golden State of Mind: Let's pretend for a second that the Golden State Warriors win the 2010 NBA Draft Lottery and the #1 overall pick. What should they do given that they already have Monta Ellis and Stephen Curry?
Aran Smith (NBADraft.net): I take the player with the most upside - John Wall. And run a two guard offense with him and Curry, and I move Ellis for a bigman or Rudy Gay. I know it's not ideal, but I think Wall is big and athletic enough to make it work. If they got the second pick I take Turner and trade Ellis as well, since I think he also works better with Curry.
I'm actually a big Ellis fan believe it or not. I just worry about his longevity with his style of play and I think he's got considerable value despite the injury troubles he's had. I think Curry is the kind of guy you can build a winning team around as the #2 or #3 guy, and has a ton of potential.
Golden State of Mind: The top players in this draft right now seem to be John Wall, Evan Turner, Derrick Favors, DeMarcus Cousins, Wesley Johnson, Al-Farouq Aminu, Ed Davis, Cole Aldrich, and Greg Monroe. Which of these guys would be the best fit for the Warriors?
Aran Smith (NBADraft.net): Seeing that the Warriors top two players are Curry and Monta, I would say one of the forwards is probably the best fit. But that doesn't necessarily mean they should trade down if they got a top 2 pick, in fact they shouldn't. But Favors or Wes Johnson would certainly "fit" into their current team better than anyone.
Golden State of Mind: Some are calling Wall the best prospect since LeBron James. Where would you rank him among the top players to come out in the past decade? Should we believe the hype?
Aran Smith (NBADraft.net): That's overstating him. I wouldn't mention him in the same breath with LeBron. I think he has a chance to become as good as Rose. But I actually liked Rose more entering the draft. We've seen guys like Dwight Howard, Oden and Durant, and Rose the past few years. I don't think Wall would have been taken over any of those guys.
**********
Stay tuned for Part Numero Dos!
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Aran Smith should probably take a closer look to discover that Derrick Rose isn’t that good. Also, the option that has us take Turner and keep Curry/Monta lists the combination as Curry/Ellis/Wall. I don’t see why that option is so popular….
discover that Derrick Rose isn’t that good.
I would love to hear your reasoning as to why Rose isnt ‘that good.’ As the 21 year old point guard and leader of playoff team, Rose is spectacular. He is weak defender, but he has gotten better from last season and hopefully he will continue to improve. Rose is a talented scorer who knows his limitations (56 three point attempts all season) and hands out a fair amount of assists while keeping his turnover rate respectable. Rose is already a good player and just needs expirience playing the point and improvement on the defensive side to make the jump into an elite NBA point guard.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 12, 2010 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Rose has some skills, and you gotta like his youth, I’m not writing him off as a big time player in the future by any means. In the present, however, he simply isn’t all that good. Yes, he scores 20 points per 36 minutes. However, he does that simply by shooting a lot – soemthing most NBA players are capable of doing, especially perimeter players. His 52.7% TS% is underwhelming and below average, and pretty much cancels out all benefits of his scoring (maybe not on the Bulls, but on a decent team it would). Their team is 39-41 – a below average NBA team, and their pythag record is even worse, so calling them anything but a mediocre team is misleading.
Also, for a PG, Rose really isn’t much of a distributor. ~6 assists per 36 minutes is pretty weak, especially for a guy as involved in the offense as Rose is. He’s not much of a rebounder, he doesn’t create turnovers…..all Derrick Rose really does is shoot a lot, but not in a productive way. All in all, that’s not a very good basketball player, right now.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
6 assists per 36 isnt that good for a pont guard (espicially with Rose’s usage rate), but it isnt horrible. For players that do play around 30mins+ he is in the top ten in the league for assists per 36 minutes. His 48% from the field is good enough for 6th best in that category for all point guards. While you make some great points, I don’t think it’s fair to lump Rose in as a ‘high volume shoot first point guard poser’.
I know intangibles are hard to measure, but watching him play, he is clearly the leader of that team and is a steadying presence on the offensive side of the ball. That has to count for atleast something that isnt mesured on the stat sheet.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 12, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Eh, why use FG% when you can look at overall efficiency (TS%)? It’s a lot like using BA instead of OBP in baseball….
For players that do play around 30mins+ he is in the top ten in the league for assists per 36 minutes.
Just curious what the total population of PG’s for this criteria is?
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Just curious what the total population of PG’s for this criteria is?
20 other point guards average 30 mins or more and 7 average more assists per game than Rose, also Dwayne Wade and Lebron James average more assists per game.
Eh, why use FG% when you can look at overall efficiency (TS%)? It’s a lot like using BA instead of OBP in baseball….
I disagree. Derrick Rose shoots about 25% from 3 point range. Looking at just that stat we would agree that he should never shoot a 3 and either pass the ball or create a shot for himself that is a higher percentage shot. But if you watch the Chicago Bulls play (which I do, they are one of my 7 teams on my league pass) he almost never shoots 3’s. He has shot 56 this whole year, and atleast 10 of those were either desperation shots at the end of the game or heaves at the end of a quater. I have no problem with Derrick Rose shooting a three pointer about every other game if he is wide open despite his poor shooting percentage. Also his free throw percentage is 76%. Not ‘good’ per say for a point guard but not horrible. I figured his fg% was more useful in this case.
You made the statement that Derrick Rose ’isn’t that good’. I figured that you meant that either he was an average player or worse. That’s not true in my opinion. If you meant that he isn’t as good as the ‘hype’ or shouldnt have been an All-Star than we really dont have a disagreement. I wouldnt put Rose in the top 5 point guards in the league but he probably is near the bottom of the top 10. For me atleast, I do take in to consideration that he has a remarkable presence on the court and is a fantastic floor leader for the Bulls. While stats are very very important to gauge preformance, there are somethings a box score doesnt record.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 12, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Well the whole point of efficiency is points per possession you shoot the ball in general. League average TS% is ~53-54% or so, meaning if Rose were to take only 2 point shots, he would need to shoot that percentage on 2’s to just score at an average efficiency. He’s not doing that, but obviously that’s simplifying things – getting to the line helps. In his case, it doesn’t help enough. It looks to me like his big problem is he doesn’t get to the line enough. The bottom line is until he gets his efficiency up overall, he’s not scoring enough to help his team win with all the shots he’s taking. That’s what TS% tells us, and why it’s more useful than FG%. Something about his game has to improve for his scoring to be useful. It probably will, but that’s future Derrick Rose we’re talking about. :)
While stats are very very important to gauge preformance, there are somethings a box score doesnt record.
Maybe you aren’t saying exactly what you mean, but if this is what your thoughts really are, I’m gonna have to say that’s wrong. If something isn’t showing up in the stats somewhere, it’s not helping you win games in any meaningful way. I’m not discounting intangibles, just pointing out that they should show up in the stats somewhere. Whether that means improved teammates stats, improved team level stats, higher assist levels…..it has to be impacting the game in some way or it’s not really helping. I’m open to arguments along the “intangibles” line, I just prefer for people to look for real evidence for it, otherwise it’s about as meaningful as Derek Jeter’s intangibles (which are pretty meaningless, even if he really has them)…..
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
otherwise it’s about as meaningful as Derek Jeter’s intangibles (which are pretty meaningless, even if he really has them)…..
any A’s fan should be able to tell you about Jeter’s intangibles?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
F*** Jeter.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Ha, that was a hell of a play. Just imagine if Jeremy Giambi isn’t an idiot and slides, though. The legend of Derek Jeter becomes….Derek Jeter, good player and classy guy. That play changed everything for him.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions
i feel like this is the kind of analysis you get when you don't actually watch the player you're analyzing.
Stats are good to supplement and give you more information about a player, but are not effectively useful as a substitute for actually watching the player.
by freerandolph on Apr 12, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
If you want to disagree, go ahead, but I prefer fact-based arguments that put actual basketball production into the context of “how does it help the team win”. A lof of times your eyes get in the way of that – by watching, you can see skills, but the question is, “how do those skills contribute to winning?” When you start seeing guys who look like good scorers but then see they don’t score efficiently….well, that’s a good example of when your eyes are biased and it’s better to check the facts.
But I’m open to hearing whatever you have to say about Rose, just not so open to criticisms that undermine actual facts without presenting any analysis/facts of their own…..
Basically, this kind of argument reeks of the “I don’t care what the stats say, watch the game” crap we get all the time in baseball. Almost every single time, it ends up coming from someone who just doesn’t understand what the stats are telling them and how to properly use them…..
(Here’s an example of what I’m talking about, this article is absolute garbage, Schulman is 100% wrong, and clearly has no idea what he’s talking about.)
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I have to agree.
As it’s been said, “the stats don’t see the entire game, but they see every game”.
Derrick Rose is aesthetically pleasing, and for that he’s often given more credit than his production deserves (for further evidence of this phenomenon, see: Bryant, Kobe).
by Spider Jerusalem on Apr 12, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't even try to get into baseball arguments.
I’d still consider myself a noob when it comes to all the stats baseball covers. I’m barely getting around to basketball. Haha.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
While I agree with you Rose is overrated
http://www.82games.com/0910/09CHI1.HTM
The Bulls are a clearly better team with him than without him on the floor. As evident by a +4.0 swing in points per 100 possessions when he’s on to off. Only Luol Deng has a higher one on the Bulls.
You missed the part where it says their team is garbage.
Outside of Rose and Noah. No one should be kept on the steaming pile. Maybe Taj…
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Hah
Deng is OKAY. I’m not a big fan of his offensive game (deep mid range guys, worst shot in basketball…) but he rebounds at a high rate and plays very good defense for a SF. I guess when you face Lebron 4 times a year and again in playoffs (potentially) thats important.
They will be enough under the cap to go after a marquee guy too. Bosh? They’d have two finesse bigs who are ultra long and rebound well. At some point they should probably hit the Dleague for some 3 point shooters too
I liked Deng on his rookie contract. Not what he’s paid now.
I think the team that should hit the Dleague the hardest is Toronto. We’re always finding good wing talent there. Our Dleague wings > Toronto Wings.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
That makes Derrick Rose a bad player?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 12, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
NO
but Warriorsscore110 used that as one of his main points.
I don’t think I need to further explain my response.
Brandon Jennings?
-A young point guard leading a playoff team (with a better record, mind you)
-Weak defender? (Haven’t watched him play too often, but he’s certainly not elite)
-Talented scorer (who doesn’t know his limitations, ie TS%)
-Hands out a fair amount of assists
By these metrics, Rose is very similar to Jennings. On another note, I don’t think Jennings will evolve into an elite NBA PG, to me mentioned in the same breath as a Nash, Paul, Williams…and Curry eventually :P
I’d personally take Westbrook over Rose, but that’s just me.
by Elevation Sensation on Apr 16, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
what missing barry said: “the option that has us take Turner and keep Curry/Monta lists the combination as Curry/Ellis/Wall”
and wall is taller and quicker than rose, with a better jumper and definitely better floor vision. he isn’t the slasher that rose is, but he is definitely a better point guard at this point than rose was coming out of Memphis
Better is a matter of opinion. IMO.
At least Rose took his team within a FT of winning the National Championship.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
And I'm entitled to that opinion aren't I?
It’s funny how I stated mine, but you didn’t. If you don’t agree, say it. Don’t do it in a roundabout way. Fact: Wall is quicker. Watch a game and it becomes obvious. Fact: Rose is more of a slasher than Wall. He attacks the rim to draw contact and dunk (even in college). Fact: Wall averaged more assists than Rose while playing in a big six conference. Fact: he averaged more steals. Fact: Wall gets more points around the perimeter than Rose did. Fact: Wall plays way too fast and loses the ball way too much. I didn’t say he was the better player, just that he has more of a point guard skill set than Rose did. Read carefully and make sure you understand my point before you criticize me for having an opinion.
Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?
Fair enough.
It is your opinion after all.
I think Rose doesn’t get his dues around here. Although some people here pointed out how “average” Rose has been thus far.
Ad a rule I don’t like to compare who’d be better between a pro and a college player. Most of the time I’ll take the NBA player because they’ve either proven they can hang or they can’t.
If Wall hits his potential, I think he’ll be a more PG oriented Rose. Maybe a Derrick Westbrook clone??
I don’t know, none of us do yet. And Brownie, chill out man.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I hate options...
such as trade Ellis and Curry. If we get Wall, we should shop Ellis, Curry, and Wall and make the deal that makes the most sense and keep the other 2. If you head into trade discussions thinking I have to trade player X, you are probably going to get hustled….
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 12, 2010 8:27 AM PDT reply actions
Agreed. At the same time, I’m sure it’s pretty obvious to every GM in the league that Monta is by far the least valuable / most overpaid commodity of those three players. The only good reason to trade Curry or Wall is that they’re likely to fetch much, much more in terms of talent than Monta. That might end up being a pretty good reason, but let’s not act like Monta should be uttered in the same breath as Wall or Curry in terms of value.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 12, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Watching Monta from courtside seats yesterday made me remember the 06' Suns game.
When Monta went off for 30 something and absolutely destroyed Barbosa with that emphatic dunk.
I also kinda think the Curry-Ellis “tension” may be overblown. Monta and Curry were definitely talking to each other and gave each other High-5’s. I know that doesn’t mean their like Step-Brothers, but at least they make it look like they’re teammates.
And damn, Kevin Durant is worth seeing live. Westbrook and Curry were basically the same size, except Russel is a little thicker. That behind the back pass on the floor from Curry = insane.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Not really replying to anything Sleep, ha--just felt like the girl in the Progressive Car Insurance commercials.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Durant live is pretty nice, I saw him a couple weeks ago. Got a picture with him, too! Seeing him up close is ridiculous – that dude is so skinny! He’s like Randolph in college!
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice.
He is definitely skinny still. And he is still one of the tallest players on his team. Pretty crazy. I think only Krstic is taller. Durant and Ibaka looked the same height to me.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I had no idea who Ibaka was. I do now.
And yeah Durant really is huge, but it’s funny because he’s so unbelievably skinny. He is the skinniest non-anorexic person I’ve ever seen.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Wasn't his nickname Gumby or something?
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Right,
Trade value should go: Wall, Curry, Ellis.
If we can do a sign and trade and get Chris Bosh for Steph Curry, Vlad Rad, Brandan Wright, and possibly filler and pair him with Randolph, Ellis, and Wall than that would be a better option than dumping Ellis for Rudy Gay with a brand new 6 year 80 million deal. I think you should go in thinking I want to keep 2 of the 3 and trade the other, what is the best scenarios out there.
Also the trade value between Wall/Curry and Ellis is large, but I think it’s too quick to say Ellis is just a high volume scorer that can do little else. Ellis can still become a very good player in this league.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 12, 2010 9:28 AM PDT reply actions
Hate to do it but we have to trade Monta....
Im sure everybody would agree that the Warriors are NOT going to trade Stephen Curry so our biggest trade chip is Monta Ellis. We are in desperate need of a big man who Curry can run the pick and roll with and REBOUNDS the ball and Monta is the player we can trade that has enough value to get us that player. Who that player is im not sure. Plus I think that if we draft Wall or Evans they can replace most if not all of Monta production and also guard bigger SG’s which sometimes Monta struggles to do. I love Monta’s game but for the greater good I think we have to trade him. We cant play small forever in a league of giants.
God Willing...
Im sure everybody would agree that the Warriors are NOT going to trade Stephen Curry
I dont agree. If we get Wall and someone is willing to give us a kings randsom for Curry, I would definetly look into the trade. Nobody is untouchable in this league unless you have Lebron James locked up during his prime.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 12, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
FYI: call me crazy but i would take Evans over Wall. From the games I watched Evans is a better all around player and looks more NBA ready to me than Wall. Plus I think Evans is taller by a few inches if im not mistaken. Reminds me of Brandon Roy and we all see what he does to the Warriors every year.
God Willing...
FYI: call me crazy but i would take Evans over Wall. From the games I watched Evans is a better all around player and looks more NBA ready to me than Wall.
Yep, you’re crazy. Evans might be the better all around player, and he might be more NBA ready. That doesn’t make him the right pick, though. The NBA is a superstars league, and Wall is the player with the best chance to be a superstar. Superstars win games, solid players don’t. And as for the “let’s pick a good player that is similar to him”, I’d take Wade over Roy any day….though obviously Wade != Wall and Roy != Turner. :)
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Superstars win games, solid players don’t.
How come in 2004 the Superstar Filled Lakers didn’t win the NBA Championship?
Gary Payton
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone
Rick Fox
Shaquille O’Neal
vs.
Chauncy Billups
Richard Hamilton
Tayshaun Prince
Rasheed Wallace
Ben Wallace
ROMESdavidWOOD37 has taken over the Ongline. He's cool.
by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Apr 12, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh come on, we both know better than that. Cherry picking one example, especially one that relies on 35 year old Gary Payton and/or 40 year old Karl Malone to be classified as “superstars”, isn’t evidence of anything, really. Matchups matter. Exceptions happen. Big Ben was a defensive superstar, and Chauncey has turned into a pretty fine player himself. The Pistons played great D. Weird things happen in small samples. So many reasons this isn’t really evidence of anything….
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions
How come in 2004 the Superstar Filled Lakers didn’t win the NBA Championship?
How did George Bush get elected president? Some things are just beyond explanation.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
you win
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
He was running against Kerry and Gore, obviously. ha ha ha. What’s beyond explanation is how the Dem.’s got such horrendous candidates, neither of whom could handily beat W in a debate, when W is not exactly the Great Communicator.
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
Gore took him for granted and came off as a smug pompous um… rimes with nick (which he was), big mistake with anyone, and Kerry? Don’t know where that went wrong except for the Swift Boat thing and he was caught wind surfing.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
the Warriors are NOT going to trade Stephen Curry
You’re probably right that’s it’s extremely unlikely, but it’s not like Curry is a truly untouchable player if the right deal comes up.
We are in desperate need of a big man who Curry can run the pick and roll with and REBOUNDS the ball
So there’s this big white 7 footer with good foot speed and fantastic hands that finishes at the rim as well as anyone in the NBA. He also happens to be one of the top rebounders in the NBA. And he’s 23. His name is Andris Biedrins.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions
You really need to realize that Biedrins is not that good. As evidenced this year, he's not capable of being a guy who can consitently run the pick anymore. His time on the Warriors is probably coming to a close soon.
by duballers23 on Apr 12, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
As evidenced this year, he’s not capable of being a guy who can consitently run the pick anymore.
Ah yes, I forgot where 23 year olds generally just have all their skills just disappear into thin air. Why bother looking at what they’ve accomplished throughout their career when we can rely on small sample sizes of injury plagued seasons instead. Andris has the skills to run the pick and roll. I’d much more comfortable betting on him retaining the skills he’s shown over a number of years than betting that he lost them at age 23. Do you really feel differently? I’ll aslo point out, despite playing worse than he has in the past, he still was a big time rebounder when he played this year and shot almost 60% from the field.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Did I say he lost his skills?
No, I don’t think so. It doesn’t have to do with him losing his skills, it has to do with his mindset. Have you heard the saying that the game of basketball is 90% mental, and 10% physical? Skills are mainly physical tools. He lacks some decision making and confidence. His state of mind on the court is obviously not where it once was, and he is not that same player right now. Maybe he’ll get it back and maybe he won’t, but I think the Warriors would much rather have a big man with better skills then Biedrins, and also a better state of mind on the court.
Have you heard the saying that the game of basketball is 90% mental, and 10% physical?
Just because someone said it doesn’t make it true, otherwise the league wouldn’t be so populated by giants and us normal people would have a chance. :)
You’re right, though, skills are only important in the way you put them into use, but the point is Biedrins has the skills to be a good pick and role player, has been effective in the past, and even despite his shortcomings this year still did many of the things we want him to – finish inside, rebound….these guys make the NBA for a reason, Biedrins has already been a successful NBA player at a young age for a reason. If he’s put in a position to use the skills he has, I fully believe he’ll give us what we want. Otherwise, he would never have seen the success he’s already had. I’m really not worried about his problems this past year – there’s so much more positive evidence in Biedrins case than negative evidence, that I really just don’t see a reason to give it too much weight.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he can be the player he was a couple years ago, but he has to change his mindset around and stop thinking the way he is thinking. Whatever that thinking may be. I think a lot of it has to do with him being afraid of being aggressive because of his poor free throw shooting. If he can start hitting his free throws, or just stop thinking about getting fouled, then he can be good again.
That could be exactly the problem, I just don’t see it as a long term problem – it was a short term problem.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
the game of basketball is 90% mental, and 10% physical
Not true, if it was I’d win 90% of my games.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What ever happened to that guy?
The Andris Beidrins I know now is nothing like that.
by SPENCEMAN on Apr 12, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Eh, who knows, he was hurt, he didn’t get consistent minutes, he may or may not have had confidence issues….he’s 23, though (actually turned 24 less than 2 weeks ago)….I’m not too worried about him.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it might have a lot more to do with confidence then we think
and thats something thats hard to get back. Lets hope he does, because I love me some Biedrins.
I thought that maybe the loss of Baron, then Jack really hurt his offensive opportunities.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Yeah Jack might be a bigger factor than I initially thought, though I think Curry should more than make up for that going forward.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Seriously??
Are we watching the same Warriors team?? Biedrins has been terrible ever since he got the big contract. He was good but looks like he has lost all confidence in his game this year. Turiaf has been the far superior center for the Dubs this year hands down.
God Willing...
by RunTMCfan on Apr 13, 2010 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously, why would we look at what he did over multiple years when we can look at a small sample one year span (he only played 763 total minutes) where he played injured most of the year and just ignore all previous indications that he’s a much better player….?
by Missing Barry on Apr 13, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Wall guarding bigger SGs?
I don’t see him doing any better of a job then Monta. Lately I’ve seen enough solid defensive stretches from Monta (take even just last night against Durant for example) that he can in the near future defend SGs, big or small, on a consistent basis. I really don’t like the idea of Wall/Curry, I think we should stick with an off-guard gunner-type SG, which Monta is and can continue to be.
We’ll see when combine measurements come out, but I’m pretty certain Wall is going to measure much bigger than Monta. Length is extremely important, and Monta has T-Rex arms whereas Wall seems to have great length. A little more height, more weight, and a huge advantage in length for Wall makes him closer to Wade than Monta (in terms of size).
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Monta has T-Rex arms
Not true, but may as well be. If you don’t have a freakish wingspan it’s a knock against you.
I’m pretty sure they’ll be around the same height, but Wall’s wingspan and vertical, should be much, much better.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Well, even for a normal person, Monta’s arms aren’t long. His wingspan is like .5 inches greater than his height, which I think is a bit below average even for normal humans. For NBA players, though, he might as well be T-Rex! I also expect Wall to be both taller and heavier than Monta – he’s listed at 6’4, 200. Wade was an inch and a half taller than Monta at 212 – I expect Wall to be a bit lighter than Wade, but probably an inch taller than Monta. Also, Monta only weighed 177 at the combine. So overall I expect a pretty sizable difference between the two, mostly in weight and length, and about an inch in height.
By the way, looking back through the measurements, I came across Ben Gordon. He measured in at 6’1. Holy crap! He did have a 6’8.5 wingspan, though….
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just really really don't see Wall as being over 200 lbs.
He is really skinny. The jersey (baby tank top?) doesn’t help. Derrick Rose, who by my memory definitely looked thicker than Wall is came in at 196 at the combine. No way do I think Wall is bigger than Rose.
I really don’t think Wall is 6’4’’ either. I think he’ll come in at 6’3’’.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
It’ll be interesting to see. When is the combine, anyways?
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know, I usually wait for DX to tell me.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I just want to say I’m extremely disappointed with the Warriors. You’d think they’re actually trying to win games or something. Don’t they understand lotto balls? Can Skep explain these concepts to them for us please?
Can Skep explain these concepts to them for us please?
Haha, I’ve given up any hope that we are blessed with people of even average intelligence on our playing, coaching or managing staff ?
I’d certainly like to hear what they do talk about at work?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions
At least if we win the lotto we can say we were one of the few teams not to tank.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
agreed
how can any franchise mistake the value of ending up with the 3rd vs 6th pick in this draft?!
how can any franchise mistake the value of ending up with the 3rd vs 6th pick in this draft?!
Maybe they got a defective heater spewing carbon monoxide in their office? or they chew the lead paint off the window sills? It’s certainly a mystery.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
+1 Barry .As a fan I was completely satisfied that we showed that we could beat the Thunder with half of our team.
So why did we have to go and win in the last seconds !
by Only In Fairfax on Apr 12, 2010 10:10 AM PDT reply actions
Devean George's reaction after the non-backcourt call was HILARIOUS.
He got all bug eyed and started convulsing right in front of us. LOL. I thought he was having a seizure.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
If we get the first pick
We should trade it for the second pick and pick up Turner. We should also trade Ellis either with that pick or in a separate trade.
I really don’t see a scenario where Wall and Curry could work together well. They both need the ball in their hands to truly be used to their potentials. Also, I think in the long run Curry could be a better player than Wall in a team sense not individual skill sense.
So…Picks 1 and 2, I’d go for Turner. (Trade down to pick 2)
Pick 3 and 4, I’d go Favors/Cousins (Trade Andris)
Pick 5 and 6 is where it gets dicey. I have no idea where to go from there. Probably Aminu/Johnson/Whiteside.
If we get the first two picks and pick up Turner, I would trade Ellis for a 3. Joe Johnson/Rudy Gay/Andre Iggy. Probably toss in Maggette somewhere.
So with the Turner scenario we run:
Curry
Turner
Gay/Johnson/Iggy
Randolph
Andris
With the Favors/Cousins scenario:
Curry
Ellis
Iggy/Johnson/Gay
Randolph
Favors/Cousins
Either way, I think we’d be in good position to win. I really hope we get a top 4 pick…
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They both need the ball in their hands to truly be used to their potentials.
Why? Every team faces the “one ball” issue – whether it’s the Spurs with Ginobili, Parker and Duncan, the Celtics with Allen, Pierce, Garnett, the Lakers with Bynum, Gasol, Kobe, the Nuggets with Chauncy and Melo…..why can’t they be effective sharing the ball? Why does one of them have to have it every single time? I don’t see the problem with Wall in a wing role and Curry in a PG role. More good players = good. I personally think there’s a sizable difference between Wall and Turner, and I’d much rather have Wall, but more important than that – what leverage do you have to force the #2 team to trade up to #1? You can’t trade out of the top 2 spots or you’re really taking a step down in terms of who’s available, so that’s not really a threat, so why would they trade when they can stay put and end up with the player they want?
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t see the problem with Wall in a wing role and Curry in a PG role.
They are both PG’s.
I disagree with the sizable difference between Wall and Turner. I would have agreed with you earlier in the NCAA season, but after watching both a lot they are both very very good players with very different strengths.
I just think that with Curry on our team, we don’t need another PG. Honestly, I’d be very happy with Wall. But I think Turner can be just as good and we can leverage our first pick to trade away Maggs or Ellis for a good SF and get Turner at the 2 (Turner is a far more natural 2 than Wall, Ellis, Curry, or anyone else on our team). He has the size, athleticism, passing ability, and defensive skills to be a dominant 2 guard.
Combine Turner + Curry + a good SF who can defend and finish, we’ll have a backcourt defensively to combine with our young up and coming front court (if they are healthy).
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
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Why does Wall have to be a PG? He reminds me of Wade, personally – not in that he’ll be good just because he reminds me of a good player, but along the lines that they strike me as similar players in style. I don’t see a reason Wall can’t play a similar role to Wade where he’s a wing who also creates for his teammates a decent amount (for a wing). PG skills are a good thing for a wing – you can never have too many distributors, only too few.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t see the similarity between the two at all.
Athletically they may be similar, and ability to get to the rack. But everything beyond those two differ greatly.
I actually see Turner being much closer to Wade than Wall to Wade. I see Wall more in the CP3 role, where he can get anywhere on the floor and create for his teammates. Like CP3, Wall needs the ball in his hands to be maximizing his potential. And Curry, like Nash, needs the ball in his hands to be maximizing his potential. I just don’t see how two players like that could be effective, but I could be totally wrong. It would really depend on the coach and the system that is being run. Two PG’s can work, and has worked in the passed. I think I am just thinking the more traditional, safe, route.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
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I guess I actually think Wall is more along the lines of Wade in terms of getting where he wants, but not necessarily with the same ballhandling, vision, passing and decisionmaking skills of CP3 (which is how CP3 is so incredibly effective controlling the ball all game long), but why Wall would be great in a wing role where he can play like Wade – breaking his man down getting to the rim, but not be expected to distribute like Paul, and instead be an effective wing distributor. I also love the idea of Curry helping to stretch the floor with a guy like Wall to drive when Wall starts on the wing.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
The only question i ask in regards to Wall is...
Can he GUARD SGs? If not we just have another Monta situation. And thats my only issue with Monta, I’ve never been that down on him offensively, he’s just a bit selfish at times….
but its the defensive dilemna he presents that requires us to consider trading him.
I’m with you though, Wall is a transcendent player, we don’t trade him because of a tactical ‘dilemma’
Can he GUARD SGs?
Combine’s going to tell us a lot. I expect the answer to that is “yes”, but we’ll see how he big he really is.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions
More good players = good.
Multivariable calculus
by tafkasam on Apr 12, 2010 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If I'm trading down, I'm certainly not trading down for Turner.
There is a drop off imo, between Wall’s value and Turner’s. Wall is younger, more upside, plays a better position, has a good image…etc. Turner should be a solid wing. I’m just not sold on him being a superstar like Wall COULD be. I think the same things were said about Harden last year. He’s looking good to me, but not the star some thought he’d be either.
The only guy I trade Wall for is Cousins. Has just as much upside imo, but comes with more risks than Wall does (And Wall does come with risks).
Another problem that I have with drafting Turner is that it doesn’t make us any bigger. Plus we have a ton of wings we could already play instead. We need to get bigger and better down low.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Another problem that I have with drafting Turner is that it doesn’t make us any bigger.
How doesn’t a 6’7 guard make us bigger?
And I also said we’d trade Monta for a SF like Gay, who is also bigger than any SF on our team.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
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Turner ain't gonna fix our poor defensive rebounding.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I dunno how well his college numbers translate, but he really could. His rebounding was pretty monstrous for a wing!
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions
yes, but he won't box out the big guys that continually torture us.
I still shudder when we need a rebound after a FT.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Biedrins + Randolph + Turner = a brand new, big time rebounding Warriors team!
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Curry is untouchable.
Trade Biedrins, Randolph and the pick for a superstar PF or C.
by Hundredthousanddollarpluswhipmaster on Apr 12, 2010 4:05 PM PDT reply actions
Curry is untouchable.
This is not india, no one is untouchable in america
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha Skeptic’s bringing his A-game today with his one-liners!
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by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 12, 2010 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions
This guy is 100% clueless on the Warriors
“Warriors needs” Warriors drafted 2 PFs in last 3 years. Both have had injury issues. Both are below 23 years of age. Brandan Wright would be asenior and Randolph a junior this year year.
My point is, unless Favors is really THAT great it’s pointless to see him as the guy. Wright was better in college than him. The only big who really intrigues me in top five is Cousins because he could be a Center in NBA.
Also, why no comment on Evan Turner? I believe he’s best “fit”
Every draft “the next big thing” is set to explode on the scene in the form of one player or another. Year after year, most of these guys turn out to be disappointments. Look, I know the Warriors are bad and our only real hope of getting better is through the draft (or an ownership change), but what about Wall, Turner, Cousins, et al, makes people think these guys are franchise changers?
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
There's really only 2 potential franchise changers. But no guarantees.
Wall
Cousins
Turner could be a good second banana. Favors will take time to get there. He may be the wild card. His development could go in multiple directions.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Intuition, Indepth Scouting, talked ot Miss Cleo etc.
The only 2 players I am 100% sold on quality NBA all star level players are Wall and Turner. Even then I’m not 100% how good they will be. Will they be periphery guys like a Monta who is in that category of almost all star, you could make a case for or against. Or will they be bonafide franchise players like CP3 or Brandon Roy.
I still have hope in Wright and Randolph
Both of them have too much talent, one of them has to be a legitimate NBA starting PF. If not that’s some (well…) Warrior-like bad luck! Still when you consider total minutes played in NBA, both are still basically full rookies years. Randolph has played 1878 minutes, aka 22.9 minutes per game for an 82 game season. Brandan Wright, 1064 minutes of basically 14 mpg for a full 82. Neither have had close to enough time.
What I’ve seen of Favors I like, but I haven’t seen anything that makes me think, the next KG/CWebb/Malone, let alone next Amare. If given the option I’d probably take Cousins over him (assuming all the mental tests checked out)
but what about Wall, Turner, Cousins, et al, makes people think these guys are franchise changers?
More hopeful. With Wall particularly, I think he has legitimate #1 pick overall type talent. Doesn’t mean he’s going to be a superstar, but it does mean short of getting Lebron #1, he has about as good of a chance as you could hope for. That’s all I want, a legitimate chance.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
If Wall and Cousins are both top 3 picks as projected, shouldn’t their team have done better in the tourney? Granted, college basketball is a different game, and these guys are both so young that you are really just drafting pure potential with either one, but true star power tends to shine through.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Eh funny things happen in small samples, and I would actually say they put on a pretty good tournament showing – they stomped WF and Cornell pretty bad, and WVU is a pretty quality team that can play with anyone. Kentucky did finish 35-3 overall, though they didn’t have many OOC tests during the season. I think that’s a pretty successful season, especially for freshmen, and the type of success you look for.
by Missing Barry on Apr 13, 2010 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions
shouldn’t their team have done better in the tourney?
Their outside shooters failed them for one game, that’s why a single elimination tourney is a farce as far as deciding the best team.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 13, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Favors can be a Center, and likely will be.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
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You take Wall, no questions asked
(1) You can still trade his rights to someone and (2) Trade avenues WILL open. Both Ellis and Curry play both guard positions, the 1 and the 2. Wall is the best Man to Man defender and has the best wingspan out of all 3 and will guard the best opposing guard when the 2 or 3 are on the court. Monta, is our best trade asset outside of Steph and AR, he will get someone good, hopefully a good wing or an upgrade at the 4 or 5.
If you draft Wall, someone will call the FO. We can trade down, trade for a solid vet, or keep the pick if nothing legitimate comes up.
Anything in the top 4 would be great for us, the Freshman class really improved the quality of this draft as well as the emergence of Turner. Warriors need to draft BPA, especially with a new owner imminent, a new owner + a franchise player to add would be in the best interests of the Warriors.
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As much as I believe that Wall >>> Ellis,
I can’t help but feel that people claim the Ellis/Curry backcourt can’t work for 3 reasons:
1) They’re too small.
2) They’re a defensive liability
3) Monta wants to be the alpha-dog.
I don’t see any of this changing if we substitute John Wall for Monta Ellis. Wall is still a small, poor defender who thinks he should be the superstar of the team he plays for. I do think he will be a better player than Monta, but I don’t think he alleviates the problems we have with our current backcourt.
As much as I would love to get the #1 pick and have essentially endless options, part of me just hopes we get the #2 or 3 pick, grab Evan Turner, and see what happens for a hopefully healthy year of
PG: Stephen Curry/CJ Watson
SG: Monta Ellis/Reggie Williams/Anthony Morrow
SF: Evan Turner/Corey Maggette/Kelenna Azubuike
PF: Anthony Randolph/Brandan Wright
C: Andris Biedrins/Ronny Turiaf
Obviously some of those bench guys have to go, but…call me crazy, but if healthy, I really like this line-up. Really like it. Not saying I don’t want the #1 pick, but given the Warriors ability to screw things up, I almost hope we just get the 2nd or 3rd and end up with a complementary player, not a make-over.
EDIT:
Neither Monta nor Wall are poor defenders, just mediocre defenders who become liabilities when forced to guard larger 2-guards.
Wall is listed as an inch taller and 15 lbs heaver then Monta, now that may not seem like a lot but it can make a big difference at the 2 and Wall may just put on a few more pounds where is does look like that Monta has no more room to grow.
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From what I have seen of Wall, his best asset is his ability to explode past people and get to the rack. On the downside, he has a turnover problem. He is a lot like another Calipari guard, Tyreke Evans (except that he is significantly smaller). He also sounds a whole lot like, um, Monta Ellis. Unless he is an exceptionally better defender, I’m not sold that he would be a huge upgrade over Monta. If you are fairly certain that you could make an equal talent swap for Monta after drafting Wall, however, that’s a different story.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Personally, I think he’s a lot more explosive than Evans, though obviously not as strong. I don’t think he’s at all like Monta, though – he has legitimate 2 guard size (especially when he fills out a bit), he has good vision with the ball, is a better ballhandler…I think he’s a significant upgrade for 2 reasons – much better at getting teammates involved and getting them easy shots and he’s a much better matchup against 2’s. Plus the big thing is potential – while the best we can probably hope for with Monta is he turns into something along the lines of his ‘07-08 form, Wall is only 19 with one year of college ball under his belt – there’s tons of room for growth there.
by Missing Barry on Apr 13, 2010 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t see any of this changing if we substitute John Wall for Monta Ellis.
well it’s an upgrade from a 2nd rounder to a #1 pick so we’d win on that count alone.
Wall at point would let us trade both Curr-bury and Montay if we wanted for one much better superstar type player? or maybe two equally good but bigger players?,say David Lee and Rudy Gay or something like that?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
while you're right as always, Skep
this suggests that we should trady Monta for Darko?
Wall seems like he has much better size than Monta.
by Missing Barry on Apr 12, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions
For what it’s worth:
How much has our lack of size in the backcourt really hurt us this year? We lose mainly because our “bigs” can’t rebound the ball and we’ve been forced to play guys out of position at the 3, not because our guards are getting posted up or consistently beaten down physically. There really are not that many guards in the league, even 2’s, that post up all that effectively. Now, I have been a staunch member of the “we need a big guard” parade, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like our other problems are more pressing.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
the more I think about it, the more I feel like our other problems are more pressing.
You could be right, though I’ll note the lack of size goes far beyond just being posted up. It’s about adequately contesting outside shots. It’s about guarding guys you get switched on, or other times I can think of when someone like Monta has been matched up against a 3 who he basically can’t bother at all. It’s about being able to contest their shot when they drive to the rim. Posting up is actually pretty far down the list of my concerns when it comes to size and playing defense (when you’re talking about PG’s and SG’s, that is).
by Missing Barry on Apr 13, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
How much has our lack of size in the backcourt really hurt us this year?
how many points have teams scored on us? How much overworked are our bigs from trying to plug the holes left by a porous perimeter?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 13, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
What bigs?
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
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I can’t help but feel that people claim the Ellis/Curry backcourt can’t work for 3 reasons:
1) They’re too small.
2) They’re a defensive liability
3) Monta wants to be the alpha-dog.
1) Although Monta has the disadvantage on the defensive end against big SG’s, I do believe he can be a consistent defender through effort. With that said, they are also the most productive guard combo in the league. What they may lack on the defensive end, they can make opponents pay on the other end.
2) Let’s face it, Warriors are offensive minded, they want to out-score the opponent. Under this system, pretty much everyone on that roaster can be liability on the D end.
3) Even though Monta will take a lot of shots, it’s what he’s been doing ever since they got him in GS. He’s a scorer, after all. And I do believe that he’s willing to sacrifice to make the team better.
Draft picks are future prospects, sure Wall/Turner can become stars in NBA, but lets not forget Oden(health), Griffin(injury), Kwame Brown, Joe Smith (remember him?)
There is always risks on picking or trading for franchise players.
Bring
Evan Turner to Golden State
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PF: Anthony Randolph
PG: Stephen Curry
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I still think we take Wall if we get #1
But I think Turner is far and away the best fit for this team.
Absolutely agree
Turner is the best fit for the team, but at #1, you HAVE to take Wall
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Evan Turner to Golden State
but Tina Turner is more athletic?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 12, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions
It wouldn't
We need to get bigger, not smaller. One (at least) would have to go
Curry will Be traded
Why? because its the warriors we do things out of the ordinary, things that … Shouldn’t happen
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