2009-2010 NBA Rookie of the Year: The case for Stephen Curry vs Brandon Jennings + Tyreke Evans
by Feltbot on Apr 15, 2010 4:15 AM PDT
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PrintUPDATE (4/37 8:29pm): Check out Tyreke Evans to Be Named 2009-2010 NBA Rookie of the Year- Congrats to Tyreke + Stephen Curry
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It's all over but the counting, and the statisticians, spindoctors and hypesters are crawling out of the woodwork to have their say over who deserves this year's NBA Rookie of the Year award. So why should I be any different? Here's my analysis of the three leading candidates for Rookie of the Year, and my reasons why Stephen Curry stands alone as the correct choice.
Jump!
The Pretender: Brandon Jennings
Reasons for:
1) The Bucks are going to the playoffs.
2) Is there another reason? If so, I haven't heard it.
Reasons against:
1) It's not at all clear that Jennings is even a good player: Since getting off to the hot start that ignited a firestorm of attention -- including a 55 point game against a decimated and demoralized Warriors squad (Azubuike blew out his knee in that game; Jackson was destroying team chemistry; Curry came off the bench) -- Jennings has struggled badly. He is shooting an anemic 36% from the field since the all-star break. His scoring average has declined from 17 ppg pre all-star game, to a mere 13 ppg post all-star game. And as his production has declined, so have his minutes under Scott Skiles. As the season draws to a close, Jennings finds himself in a virtual platoon with Luke Ridnour. Jennings is getting 30 mpg, Ridnour 20. In fact, in 4 of the last 12 games, Skiles has played Jennings fewer than 20 minutes.
It is not even clear at this point that Jennings has what it takes to remain a starting point guard in the NBA. He will need to improve his shooting considerably in order to keep his job. And it's far from a given that that will ever happen. Consider the case of Ramon Sessions, the point guard that Skiles dumped last summer.
2) Bogut, Salmons, Mbah a Moute, Ilyasova, Ridnour, Skiles. The Eastern Conference. In other words, all the other reasons that the Bucks are going to the playoffs. Did Jennings really lead the Bucks into the playoffs, or did they drag him?
The Contender: Tyreke Evans
Reasons for:
1) The Stats: Joins Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan and Lebron James as the only players to have averaged at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie seasons.
2) Is there another reason? If so, I haven't heard it.
Reasons against:
1) He's not a point guard. Here's John Hollinger, who recently included Evans on his list of most selfish "Chuckers" in the NBA:
Evans plays point guard much of the time and thus has a decent assist ratio, but that masks his major weakness as a playmaker: He thinks sequentially. As in, "First, I'll look for my shot; only when I am cut off, I'll look to see what's going on around me." As a result he might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league.
He's one of a handful of players with a TS% under 53 and a usage rate above 25, but the visual is what really puts him over the top -- the idea of involving people just for the sake of their participation in the offense seems completely foreign to him. Too many times he's passing only as a last resort.
If that analysis, or even the experience of watching Evans ball-hog yourself, has not convinced you that Evans is not a point guard, then consider this: Evans could not co-exist in the same backcourt with one of the premier offensive off-guards in the league, Kevin Martin. Their lack of chemistry forced the trade of Martin to the Rockets at mid-season. Who replaced Martin in the backcourt alongside Tyreke Evans? Point guard Beno Udrih.
In other words, the Kings themselves don't think Tyreke Evans is a point guard.
2) Evans can't shoot from outside, and is a very poor defender. These are qualities that are sometimes overlooked in a point guard.
But are they qualities you want in your shooting guard? Evans is still a long way from being a winning basketball player.
3) Now reconsider Evans' 20-5-5 stats. Still very impressive, of course, but far less impressive as an off guard than as a point guard.
Consider this: a few seasons ago, Stephen Jackson averaged 20.7 - 5.1 - 6.5 for the Warriors, and received no recognition at all from the NBA's coaches or the national press. No all-star consideration, no laudatory articles. Not one peep.
4) Evans doesn't make his team or his teammates better. Led by Evans, the Kings have had an absolutely disastrous season. Why? Apart from the early injury to Martin, and a late injury to Spencer Hawes the Kings have enjoyed a remarkably healthy season. But rather than show improvement, they have fallen apart in the second half of the season. Even the subtraction of Martin and the addition of the heralded Carl Landry did nothing to improve them. Why?
Players whom Tyreke Evans has failed to improve: Kevin Martin, obviously. But also his big men, Spencer Hawes, Jason Thompson, and Andres Nocioni. Both Hawes and Nocioni are seriously disgruntled over their role in the Kings' offense. Why?
5) How did Tyreke Evans achieve his remarkable stats? If you want to know why Evans failed to make his teammates and his team better, this is where you should start. I'll let Tyreke Evans himself do the talking:
Evans didn't say so specifically, but there can be no doubt that his agents keep calling to make sure he does the math.
"It's like, '20-5-5,' " he related, with a slight headshake. " 'You gotta get it.' People tell me I need this many rebounds or that many points. But ... the Rookie of the Year Award is the one I want....
Here's more, from the same article, to provide context:
As the losing persists, some of the Kings have become resigned to an offensive scheme that often results in excessive dribbling and a complete absence of ball and body movement. Both primary ballhandlers - Evans and Beno Udrih - are major offenders, though hardly the only culprits. Overdribbling spreads like a bad cold.
"Coach (Paul Westphal) tells us all the time, 'just because Tyreke has the ball and we isolate him on the wing, that doesn't mean we can't run splits, doesn't mean you can't cut,' " said reserve forward Sean May. "It's been happening all year. But at some point we have to say, 'Tyreke, you gotta go,' or call for a screen and roll quicker if you don't see something. There's got to be more movement to our offense."
And here's more still, a description of the game in which Evans secured his statistical milestone. If you have trouble interpreting any of this, I'll help you out: Tyreke Evans' stat-hunting Rookie of the Year campaign has killed the Kings' offensive chemistry. He is playing the game for all the wrong reasons.
Is this something that deserves to be rewarded?
The Real Deal: Stephen Curry
Reasons for:
1) The Stats: Curry hasn't averaged 20-5-5 over the entire season. His averages are 17.2 - 5.9 - 4.4. But Curry didn't have an established role with the Warriors at the beginning of the season. He had to deal with the Stephen Jackson turmoil, and something even more difficult: being frozen out of the offense by Monta Ellis, who deeply resented his presence. Curry did not become a full time player, nor begin to take the reins of the Warriors offense until the month of January. These are his averages in his 48 starts after January 1st: 20.6 - 6.7 - 4.8. These are his averages in his first 7 games in April, in which Monta Ellis missed 5 games, and the Warriors' record was 4-3: 24.1 - 8.1 - 6. (This does not include the arguably meaningless last game of the season, in which Curry dropped 42 points, 9 rebounds, and 8 assists in a win in Portland.)
He achieved these averages as a point guard. A REAL point guard. Playing the game the RIGHT way. Stephen Curry, according to his coach Don Nelson, "plays the game for all the right reasons."
2) More stats: Curry has broken the record for three-pointers made by a rookie, while shooting 43% from three. He is 8th in the entire NBA in three-point shooting. His overall shooting percentages are 46-43-88, making him a great bet to eventually join the elite club of 50-40-90 shooters headlined by Larry Bird, Reggie Miller and Steve Nash. Just as a reference, compare Curry's shooting percentages in his rookie year to those of Steve Nash in his first three seasons.
On the defensive side of the ledger, Curry is 3rd in the entire NBA in steals.
3) Stephen Curry makes his team and his teammates better: The Warriors have had a woeful season, but this has had nothing to do with Stephen Curry. It has had to do with the loss, for the season, of the Warriors entire frontline, and both of their starting wing players. Biedrins, Randolph, Wright, Moore and Radmanovich all suffered season ending injuries. Turiaf missed major time, and was seriously limited even when playing. Azubuike was lost to injury early, and Jackson forced himself off the team.
As has been well chronicled, the Warriors have played ridiculously short-handed all season long. This team was held together by midseason D-League call-ups, that brought the number of players available to play each night up to a ridiculously low six, seven or eight. In the midst of all of these injury woes, Curry was the iron-man, playing in all but 2 games. He has been a major part of the glue that has kept this decimated Warriors squad together, and playing hard all season long.
As Curry has assumed the mantle of leadership with the Warriors, the team has gotten better. Consider the recent stretch of games the Warriors played without Monta Ellis, which secured Don Nelson the record for most lifetime coaching wins: the Warriors record in that stretch was 4-3, with three D-leaguers getting substantial minutes.
And what of Curry's work with the D-leaguers? The on-court chemistry he has achieved with Chris Hunter and Anthony Tolliver, in a matter of weeks, is nothing short of remarkable. Could Tyreke Evans, who failed in an entire season to attain any chemistry with his established high-draft-pick big men, have led the Warriors D-leaguers the way Curry has?
Stephen Curry is loved by his teammates. Don Nelson recently referred to the extraordinary chemistry in the Warriors' locker room, calling the Warriors' young core of players "Curry's guys."
How did Stephen Curry earn his teammates respect? By being an extraordinary player and point guard, certainly. But also by being unselfish. By looking for the pass before looking for the shot. By working on his defense. By being a workhorse. By being a leader.
By playing the game the RIGHT way, and for the RIGHT reasons.
4) The greatness quotient: Real greatness is foreshadowed in Curry's rookie stats. And not just in his stats, but in the opinion of his head coach, and many other coaches and commentators around the league, who consider him on a par with Steve Nash in terms of basketball IQ.
Brandon Jennings has me wondering if he really is a legitimate NBA starter. Tyreke Evans has me wondering whether he can ever be the kind of player who makes his teammates better, who leads his team into the playoffs, who becomes worthy of an all-star selection.
I don't wonder about those things with Stephen Curry. I have no doubt that he will lead his team into the playoffs many times, and earn many all-star selections.
What Stephen Curry has me wondering is whether I'm watching a future NBA Hall of Famer.
Stephen Curry is the right choice, and the only choice, for the NBA Rookie of the Year.
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Yes you are
… looking at a Hall of Famer. He’s just getting warmed up.
We could argue this all day, but of course I was going to pick Stephen Curry like most Warriors fans would have. The guy has been nothing sort of sensational in his rookie season. His improvements made throughout the season, especially since the start of the 2010 year, give us plenty of hope down the road.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 6:40 AM PDT reply actions
That near quadruple double of his was pretty impressive.
And it was off a back to back. He already got a 30+/10+/10 triple double and flirted with a ton of others. He’s somewhat like a scoring version of Steve Nash, with the capability of getting triple doubles like Jason Kidd.
He’s also third in the league in 30+point/10+ assist games, behind LeBron and D-Wade. The amazing thing is that he did all of it after December, when Monta somewhat stopped being a 26ppg ballhogg.
So now that Monta knows what Curry is capable of, Curry should be able to run the show next season and everyone will see what he is truly capable of. He’s been getting better and better since December, I can’t to see him play again. Just look at the efficiency this kid plays with, he’s putting up all these stats without chucking shots (since his percentages are really good).
by Precise Films Productions on Apr 15, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Curry is the truth!
I didnt need much convincing of that after watching about 90% of the Warriors games this year…But what he did after Jackson forced his way out of town and Monta was obvioulsy showing the rookie he wasnt interested in helping his development was amazing. He never complained once and just came every night and played his game. Half way thru the year he was running the team and playing great basketball. Even Monta seemed to agree that the kid has something special and started playing with him instead of against him which made the team even better. Even though this was a terrible season record wise it was fun to watch and I rarely ever missed a game. Curry being a big reason why. I love the Warriors potential going forward and with a few minor tweaks and no major injuries and a solid draft pick and we could surprise a lot of people next year.
Is “WE BELIEVE” gonna be back for the 10-11 season??? I sure hope so…
God Willing...
The thing most are overlooking is we had
the most injuries, line up chnages and the lack of big guys in the post. With Randolph, Beans adn Wright he would have avg. well over 8 dimes a game. The fact that this kid was able to rise above Jackson’s implosion, Monta’s baby whining and all the other behind the scenes BS we never heard about is amazing. He is already this teams leader and Captain. He is also this years ROY!
8th alias and on probation
I promise to be kinder and gentler
Probation is a slippery slope
So just to summarize…
1. Evans isn’t the ROY ‘cos he isn’t a PG.
2. Curry is the ROY ‘cos he’s going to be a perennial All-Star in the future.
;-P
Ah … what the heck. You’re a total homer, Feltbot, but on this score, I’m drinking the kool-aid with you. I think the ROY race is basically a tie, but Curry right now is just out of this world. Last night he was the best player on the floor … by far. Played all 48 minutes, totally controlled the floor, committed two turnovers, played non-stop tough D (Blazers announcers couldn’t stop raving about his intensity on that end), crashed the boards, scored 26 points in the second half. After the game Nellie, not really prone to hyperbole about his own kids, couldn’t stop gushing about him, and him alone. (Poor Monta).
I still kinda hope Curry doesn’t get the ROY so he can come out next season all p*ssed off and with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. But if last year’s draft were to be reheld today, I would have a pretty tough time not taking him #1.
There will be no extra point!
Do you think the adversity would help Curry? Maybe he is used to everything going right for him, it seems like it has been ever since he happened to be born to an NBA player.
I guess maybe the him going to Davidson instead of a big college might have been a snub that he had to overcome, but I don’t know the story, if he really was overlooked or not.
Curry being the best player on the floor is'nt saying much,
considering the Blazers were playing almost all bench players, including ones that basically have’nt played AT ALL this season, i.e Travis Diener.
I love me some Curry, I’m a Kings fan, but watch GS games specifically to watch him.
But as for the above article? So fallacious, it’s not even funny. Tyreke a terrible defender? Have stats to back that up?
lol
Yeah, I was like “wtf, so Tyreke can’t be ROY because he’s not a true point guard? Since when do you have to be a point guard to win ROY?”.
But I agree that Curry should win the award, it will be hard for him to win it, though, because people will just look at the points/rebounds/assists averages for the entire season instead of going more in depth on it. Tyreke’s so lucky he doesn’t have a 26ppg ballhog like Monta restricting him from showing what he’s capable of.
by Precise Films Productions on Apr 15, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
That would have not affected Blake Griffin at all I suspect.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The only thing potentially valid about that is that his scoring and assists were inflated playing as a 1, because he handled so much. That might be a little bit of a stretch, but I don’t know. Perhaps if he played with a “true point guard” said point guard would find a way to make them win, which could conceivably deflate Tyreke’s numbers?
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
Hmm
4) Evans doesn’t make his team or his teammates better
Didn’t Tyreke basically take the same group of guys from last year and tack on an extra 7 wins? I’d say he made his teammates better. Ok, so the Kings totally collapsed late in the season, but the Warriors basically collapsed at the beginning of the season.
Anyways, I’m actually with Nellie on this one, co-ROY with Tyreke and Curry would be wonderful.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
I’d say he [Tyreke] made his teammates better.
Yeah, the turnaround in Spencer Hawes’ game was remarkable. He went from a poor scoring efficiency center to a center with poor scoring efficiency. Nope. No improvement there. Ah, well I guess Jason Thompson benefited from Evans’. His TS% improved by…wait, nope. It didn’t improve. It regressed. At least Nocioni managed to…oops. He seemed to get worse as well.
It’s tough to find a King who really improved all that much from the year before. The improvement in team record seems to a result of their promising rookies (Casspi and Brockman are keepers as well) rather than any improvement among their returning cast.
by jae on Apr 15, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The improvement in team record seems to a result of their promising rookies (Casspi and Brockman are keepers as well) rather than any improvement among their returning cast.
Ok, I’ll take that. :)
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions
You shouldn't forget Udrih who had his best year this year and last year was his worst(I'm not counting his seasons with Spurs)
and a big factor was also Casspi.
There’s got to be more to Evans’ game than just the stats. All those negative things you mentioned are totally biased. The guy is a machine and he’s a rookie. Rookie’s get mis-guided and perhaps he’s chasing the stats but eventually, he’ll understand the game better.
Curry understands the game far better than Evans, IMO, but we shouldn’t knock Evans for that. Evans is a machine. Curry is a machine but he’s also special. Therefore, Curry for ROY.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Tyreke Evans not in the Oscar Robertson + Michael Jordan rookie class
Not to bash on Tyreke who has had a fantastic rookie season, but his rookie year 20-5-5 that gets lumped in with Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan’s rookie seasons is such an arbitrary measure. I can’t remember where I read this, but Tyreke’s 20-5-5 with much lower shooting percentages is far off from Robinson’s and Jordan’s rookie years. FAR.
- Michael Jordan (rookie 1984-1985): 28.2ppg (59.2% TS), 6.5 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.4 steals
- Oscar Robertson (rookie 1960-1961): 30.5 ppg (55.5% TS), 10.1 rpg, 9.7 apg (steals weren’t recorded back then)
- Tyreke Evans (rookie 2009-2010) 20.1 ppg (52.9% TS), 5.3 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.5 steals
Evans’ numbers aren’t even close to MJ’s and the Big O. It’s a silly made-up statistical set and comparison and shouldn’t be the reason he wins ROY. The 20-5-5 and class of MJ and Robertson seems to be fueling his candidacy.
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by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 15, 2010 8:55 AM PDT reply actions 9 recs
+1
Totally agreed. ASTGs — “arbitrary statistical threshold groupings” — are very silly.
In the other ROY thread, jae posted two great links to the B-R “Player Season Finder” tool, which allows you to pick your own ADTGs and see how many players match them.
In the 20-5-5 as a rookie category, the Player Season Finder turned up
Tyreke Evans
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
(Not sure why the Big O didn’t turn up under this search).
At the same time, in the 17.2 / 5.9 / 4.4 / 1.9 / .565 TS as a rookie category, it turned up
Stephen Curry
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
As jae says, neither of our promising rooks is even a “garden variety all-star” at this point, let alone worthy of mention in the same breath as the greatest players of all time.
Moral of the story … Stephen Curry is Magic and MJ all rolled into one!!!!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
(Not sure why the Big O didn’t turn up under this search).
Because of the steals criteria. The search engine only allowed 4 criteria as qualifiers and I was modifying the criteria I used for a previous search and forgot to reset it. I had it sort on “steals per game” and Big O played before they were recorded. It’s a glitch based on how I modified the query. A more accurate inclusive lis includes the Big O and Charlie Scott.
Holy CRAP! He’s in there with Charlie Scott! Who’s Charlie Scott, by the way?
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
This would be Charlie Scott.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Five all-star games, 5 assists, 20.7 per game, 5 rebounds. Sounds like he had a career like Tyreke’s rookie year, except he won games a lot more. If Tyreke has a career like that, it won’t be too bad, considering the number of playoff games Charlie played in.
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
I'll worry about Tyreke Evans' career when he plays 10 years. Until then, to me that issue is moot.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
wow on the Big O's numbers
wish I could turn back time and watch him that season – amazing!
Nobody has come close to those numbers, LeBron maybe could if he choose to – but not yet.
Why doesn’t Oscar get consideration when people talk about the best of all time?
+1
He probably doesn’t get any consideration because there’s not much footage him, unfortunately. I wonder how he’d do in today’s game. I’m sure he’d still shine!
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The numbers are not as otherworldly when you consider the era he played in. It would be foolish to compare his numbers against the players of today without putting them in context first.
because he sucked.
At winning. He only won once. And he needed Kareem-Abdul Jabaar. He was a stat machine but needed big names to help him win. Like Kobe n Pau.
Pop Quiz
How many rings did Kareem win without Magic Johnson? And without Oscar or Magic?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
None.
But the fact that O-train was unable to win without having Kareem Abdul-Jabaar, who was the best player on that team when he played for the Bucks that season, just shows how incredibly hollow his stats were.
Where do they find these people???
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
Hollow.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Statistical bias?
Interesting how you don’t put up lebrons numbers from his rookie year. Is that because his stats are almost the exact same as Evans? Lebrons gonna be better than mj too.
03-04 CLE 39.5 min 0.417 fg 5.5rpg 5.9apg 1.6 Spg 0.7bpg 20.9 ppg
09-10. Sac. 37.2 min 0.458fg 5.3rpg 5.8 apg 1.5spg 0.4bpg 20.1 ppg
Almost identical to tyreke. Plus curry is in a system where he is encouraged to shoot a ton. And Evans can’t win cuz he isn’t a point guard? That’s what someone said. Dwyane Wade isn’t a pure pg… So he can never win any awards either?
The point I’m getting at is if tyreke was on the warriors we would all pick him for Roy.
by Mike_is_awesome on Apr 15, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Lebrons gonna be better than mj too.
In terms of… what, exactly? Larry Fitzgerald might someday be considered better than Jerry Rice, but he’s a few championships and a bunch of statistics away from getting there.
Plus curry is in a system where he is encouraged to shoot a ton.
That’s why he scores a lot and does it inefficiently, wait… he does score efficiently so encouraging him to shoot is a good thing!
The point I’m getting at is if tyreke was on the warriors we would all pick him for Roy.
If Evans were on the Warriors, we’d be shipping either Evans or Monta out on the next half decent trade proposal (see: Martin, Kevin).
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Why wouldn't the Dubs move Ellis anyway?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Haha, good question. Personally, I’d trade Monta for Landry and an expiring.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Problem is GP don't like Monta. I can guarantee it.
If I were the Dubs, I’d get on the phone and work with Memphis to get Conley & Jaric (Jaric’s expiring). I don’t know if Memphis would do it, but it would help the Dubs rebuild.
That’s the real problem. They don’t quite rebuild, and they aren’t good enough to get to the playoffs consistently. The day Chris Cohan leaves is a day that I suspect will not be just rejoiced in the Bay.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The day Chris Cohan leaves is a day that I suspect will not be just rejoiced in the Bay.
We’re gonna throw a Frickin’ Parade.
And I’m not sure why you think we’d trade Monta for Conley. Oh wait you’re a Kings fan, you want us to get worse.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Conley is also expiring.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Why wouldn’t the Dubs move Ellis anyway?
Because upper management in Warriorville has been in the hands of functional morons since the early 90s.
by jae on Apr 15, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm going to be laughing at this for a long time.
That’s a perfect synopsis of Chris Cohan’s ownership.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
If Evans were on the Warriors, we’d be shippingeither Evans orMonta out on the next half decent trade proposal (see: Martin, Kevin).
Of course, with Curry, we may end up doing the same thing…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Just to spite the fans after fattening his pockets.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Man...
…Oscar Robertson was good. He so often goes unremarked upon these days, but I don’t know you can find too many players I’d pick above him. A near triple double for the season in his rookie year. And yes, Tyreke Evans’ candidacy has begun to take on more of the machinations of a media push. When sports media finds a narrative, they’ll keep pounding it til it sticks. It’s the same reason everyone thinks Derek Fisher is a great shooter.
by Zack Vank on Apr 15, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok
since you haven’t heard any other reasons that Tyreke should be ROY, here are a couple.
1. Evans has 41 20 point games this season, compared to Curry’s 27 and Jenning’s 20.
2. Tyreke has been putting up phenomenal numbers since November, and he does so while routinely facing the opposing teams best defender.
3. Tyreke has hit multiple game winning shots this year.
Maybe you could back up some of your arguments with some stats. For instance, please explain your reasoning behind calling Tyreke a poor defender. I’ve watched him a lot this year, and he is actually a very good defender on the ball. I am curious to hear your reasoning.
Also, not being a point guard is no reason to not win ROY. Only four of the last ten ROY’s were point guards.
I understand that this article is probably just homerism, which is ok. But when you go post it on other team’s pages, I would hope that it would include a more objective viewpoint than this has shown.
Evans has 41 20 point games this season, compared to Curry’s 27 and Jenning’s 20.
The “points per game” as the single greatest determination of a player’s value raises its ugly head again.
I didn't say that at all
just giving the writer some more information with tangible stats to back it up. He said the only argument he had heard was the 20-5-5 thing. But, on the other hand, saying that “point per game” has no relation to a players value is also inaccurate.
But, on the other hand, saying that "point per game" has no relation to a players value is also inaccurate.
True, but a count of how many 20 point games a player has vs another player isn’t a terribly worthwhile measure. How a player gets the 20 points is equally important, and there’s nothing magic about the number 20, save that it’s a multiple of 10.
If you want to go with the “number of x=point games” why 20? Why not 30? (Curry holds an 8-4 edge there). Why not 35? (3 to zip) or 40? (1 to zero) I am not using this as an argument that this makes Curry better, but the notion that #of 20 point games is arbitrary. You present it as if it was not.
To be honest with you Jae
I’ve seen a lot of that both ways. Most arguments are, by design, arbitrary. ROTY is arbitrary for instance.
All that has been accomplished today is that many at GSoM feel a different criteria should be used, arbitrary or not.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
By objective criteria, criteria that relates statistical contributions to the probability of winning games, they’re very, very close. Curry probably has a tiny edge, but it’s within the realm of statistical noise and wasn’t that way a week ago.
I’d say that ROTY isn’t arbitrary so much as it’s a popularity contest with points per game being the single greatest influencer in the decision, with pre-season hype and draft position figuring prominently as well. As a measure of how much a player contributed and how likely they are to contribute in the future, it lacks considerably.
Yeah it's a total popularity contest.
So is voting for the presidency. I personally think being on the All-Rookie 1st team is more of an honor than ROTY.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Or so is the presidency I mean^
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
So is voting for the presidency.
I certainly disagree with that. People will vote for the person they feel can best lead the country.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Alrighty then.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I seriously doubt that. People are strongly influenced by silly things like certain misleading slogans like “change you can believe in,” very much so. Even worse, they are influenced by network news, which has a sickeningly lefty slant as of late. (It was left before but not so sickeningly so). People would have voted differently had they realized that the Democrat controlled Congress, of which Obama was a part, absolutely refused to re-regulate the deregulation that resulted in financial meltdown. That in spite of (or perhaps because of?) the Bush administrations repeated call for action to control Fannie Mae.
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
People would have voted differently had they realized that the Democrat controlled Congress, of which Obama was a part, absolutely refused to re-regulate the deregulation that resulted in financial meltdown.
Haha, Republican invented deregulation to line the pockets of their contributors, starting with Ronald Reagen who shut down our mental hospitals and released the poor wackos to fend for themselves on our streets. and continuing to Bush not filling vacant positions on the labor relations boards to try and stall the fight for workers social advancement.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: People will vote for the person they feel can best lead the country.
Considering most people had no idea what Obama’s policy stances were since he said almost nothing specific, they voted for him because he sold them on him..
Same thing with Bush in 2000. Nobody knew anything about what he was planning on doing. Just spoke in very broad terms. People said “I’d like to have a beer with that guy”.
Who’s the governor of California again?
You give people a lot more credit than I do . . .
I give pressure the reach-around.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Apr 15, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions
I strongly...
…reccommend “The Political Brain” by Drew Westin.
The internet + politics = Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Let’s not go there
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
And I'm not talking about politics.
My point was that the presidential election is essentially a popularity contest. Your brethren are discussing politics, not I.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Oh boy.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Who was Curry playing around?
Curry managed to do what he did often surrounded by 3 D-League players. His assist totals would have been so much better if he had someone who could actually finish plays. Nearly every time curry set up Tolliver or Hunter they would have to stop gather and give the defense time to recover. Evans had established NBA players in the lineup every day. Did Evans really make other players around him better? Did he make Kevin Martin better? Oh yeah that really didn’t work out.
My point is that Curry would have been even better if he had a better surrounding cast. There are a lot of intangibles though, he obviously wouldn’t have played so many minutes.
The 20 pt games don’t impress me that much because many players can go out and do 20 a night. Obviously, Evans has a tremendous ability to finish around the basket. Curry doesn’t have this, but he has by far the superior and its not even questionable, outside shot.
Both are phenomenal players. You have to admit that there are legitimate arguments for Curry being ROY. I don’t think it’s homerism.
I do agree
that they are both awesome, and going to be great for years to come. I am not here to try and convince you that Evans is better than Curry, I was just trying to give some more accurate information that what was written above.
The homerism I was referring to was the fact that the article doesn’t point out any flaws in Curry’s game, and doesn’t point out any things that Evans does well.
I would argue, though, that with a better supporting cast the team may have been better, but Curry’s numbers probably would have gone down. Except for assists of course, which you point out. He had to carry the scoring load for the majority of the season for you guys, as did Tyreke for us.
Although we may have “established NBA players” in Sac, they are a very young group of guys who managed to win 17 games last year. Our starting lineup is only 24 years old on average, and we managed to win 8 more games than we did last year.
I really do love Curry’s game, and think he’s going to be great. I also love our guy, and I’m glad we got him.
Eh, Feltbot didn't exactly write the most neutral post ever...
Anyways, I think the ROY is basically a tie, but like Nellie said after our last game, co-ROY would be just peachy :D
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't think you've met this peach.
Co-ROY might cause this guy to jump off the Golden Gate bridge…
Really?
Then we might just have to have Co-RoYs then.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
If you read my argument
you would see that I was refuting the statement that the Kings roster is “established NBA players” by saying they are young, and yet, have improved. I did not compare the age of our team to yours.
He had to carry the scoring load for the majority of the season for you guys, as did Tyreke for us.
You misspelled “He had to defer to Monta as primary scorer for the majority of the season.”
by jae on Apr 15, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
The "points per game" as the single greatest determination of a player’s value raises its ugly head again.
It seems to be the exact same argument you made with a different threshold though. So why should we (everyone, not just Warriors fans) give your first point any credence at all?
I dunno...
…I certainly didn’t know that Tyreke was openly gunning for stats each night. That’s generally a big no-no in pro sports terms, at least insofar as one’s teammates are concerned, and I never heard a peep about it. Probably because ESPN was busy drooling over his biceps and 20-5-5 line.
I certainly didn’t know that Tyreke was openly gunning for stats each night.
He really wasn’t for most of the season. It was only the last few weeks when one area (more or less scoring) was in danger of slipping below the threshold.
I think Tyreke could have scored 25 a night if he was only after his stats.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Curry is the only play other than Osacr and MJ to have 5 or more 30 and 10 games
Had a better triple double, most 3’s for a rookie ever and other records. What does Reke have? 25 5 and 5?
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
by dubzfan on Apr 15, 2010 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So
what’s more important, season averages, or individual games? What is more telling about a player’s abilities. Jennings has a 55 point game as a rookie, does that make him the best rookie this year? We can go back and forth all day with arbitrary statistics that make a point for either player, but that would be worthless.
Again, I wasn’t trying to convince you of anything. The only reason I even posted here was because your moderator thought it would be cool to post this over at Sactown Royalty and Brewhoop. I read the article and, although I understand the intent, I thought I would plug a little more sense into the argument for Tyreke. The arguments made against him made above are based mostly on emotion, and are stated with no evidence to back them up.
Well if your talking averages
Steph is more efficient, the better passer and basically blew by Reke in the 2nd half of the year capped off by all his ROM awards. I agree the article is spotty when talking about Reke but Steph at worst should be co ROY
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Evans not being as good as the 1st half of the year in the 2nd half
Evens things out
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Pts-reb-ast by month
November:
Reke: 20.3-5.5-5.1
Curry: 9.8-3.2-5.3
December:
Reke: 22.1-5.3-5.1
Curry: 13.5-4.4-3.7
January:
Reke: 20.7-3.5-5.1
Curry: 19.1-4.4-5.1
February:
Reke: 20.1-5.8-7.0
Curry: 21.5-5.3-7.3
March:
Reke: 19.4-6.9-7.5
Curry: 19.8-4.3-7.3
April:
Reke: 19.5-5.8-5.3 (6 games)
Curry: 26.4-6.4-8.1 (8 games)
My point is that you make it sound like Curry blew Tyreke away in the second half of the year. He may have been better some months in some areas, but it’s pretty close to a draw, in my opinion. Except, of course, for the first few months, where Tyreke was obviously better, and April, which was a very small sample size.
He may have been better some months in some areas, […]
Curry averaged more points, rebounds, assists and steals while shooting a higher percentage than Evans from January 1 until the end of the season.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
You missed my point. Saying Curry
blew by Reke in the 2nd half of the yearis not exactly accurate, that’s all.
I think...
…being that much more effective on offense than you competitor constitutes a blow-by, but this is just a semantic argument we might be embroiled in.
Ah, so that’s two months compared to four, right?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
Four two months, there was a large difference. Then, for four months, there was a small difference.
I think the last four months are more important than the first two months.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Haha
Tyreke can take his 1st 2 months of the season every year, but when it’s going to come down to competing for playoffs in the future, I’ll go with Curry all day because he was awesome down the stretch when it matters most.
Disagree
The reason Tyreke made game winners is because no one else on that team is capable of taking game winners or leading their team in last few seonds. Unfortunatley, Curry hardly got any game winning shot opportunities because the ball would never leave Ellis’ hands on those posessions. I’d go with Curry’s shooting ability and craftiness in the clutch over Tyreke’s driving.
The reason Tyreke made game winners is because no one else on that team is capable of taking game winners or leading their team in last few seonds.
I would suspect it’s more of the “Kobe hits game winners” effect in that Tyreke stops ball movement, focuses on himself and winning the ROY award, and doesn’t let anybody else take the last shot.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Go ahead then, no ones arguing with you whos better in the clutch.
Take your live and die by the jump shot. Id rather have a higher percentage shot at the end of the game. Just me though.
Seems like there’s a lot of Ellis hate going on in here, because Curry is the Saviour.
Whats the general consensus around here for the off season and him?
Since...
…you’ve challenged the article on the grounds of lack of evidence, do you have similar evidence to suggest than Tyreke would be a better guy late in the game than Curry? I ask because this seems like more of a media narrative about Tyreke than it does anything, well, real.
evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD1IX13EiWY vs Nuggets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2AbVDPywzk vs bucks
and let’s not forget the D. game winning steal vs. arenas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N29fcM4qdiM&feature=channel
ouch
somebody can find the 2 times he dribbled out the clock and didn’t get a shot off against the lakers & cavs. LOL
I betcha...
…I could find three videos that make Stephen Curry look pretty damn good. Bet I could. Point being, that’s why being able to look at the cold facts (as presented by the numbers, and especially by the more sophisticated metric statistics like TS%) is important.
Truth be told, I’m basically sure Tyreke will win. I’m not happy about it, but the truth is you’ll be hard pressed to get many people to vote against a such a physical adonis with a flashy (if, in my analysis, a very overstated) statline. That said, though, I believe very strongly in being able to sift through information reasonably and come to a nuanced and accurate opinion, and citing a few videos of a few specific games doesn’t really aid that.
As Raymond Terrific would say, let’s sort it out.
really?
“have similar evidence to suggest than Tyreke would be a better guy late in the game than Curry? I ask because this seems like more of a media narrative about Tyreke than it does anything, well, real.”
those were your words – you questioned whether there was proof and insuated it was a media fiction. you’ve got 3 game winning plays right there.
question asked, question answered. just accept it even if it wasn’t the answer you wanted.
I'm not...
…calling it media fiction, I’m calling it narrative. What I’m insinuating is that when sports media finds a way to present and market a guy, they will continue to do so often in spite of the actual reality of what happens on the floor. Kobe, for example, shoots a pretty low percentage on game winning shots throughout his career, (I realize he’s been much more successful and dramatic this season, but that doesn’t really tilt the full measure of his career that much).. Yet he’s still touted as the mythic “guy you want with the ball,” in spite of the fact that there are plenty of guys who literally have come through more often. Factor in Kobe’s reluctance to dish off on a potential game winner (before the start of this season he’d only notched one assist in 56 game winner scenarios), as well as the fact that he shoots worse in those moments. This is just to highlight that there’s a need to contextualize both the visual and anecdotal with the statistical, and ignoring that side entirely and holding up these few videos as definitive “proof” and as “question asked, question answered” simply doesn’t do it for me. I think it’s a disingenuous way to argue about a players’ relative worth. Do you have any idea how many players have amazing highlight reels? I saw a video of Mohammad Saer-Sene when he was in the draft that made him look like Hakeem Olajuwon. It’s not enough to just throw up a guy’s few biggest shots and say case closed.
by Zack Vank on Apr 16, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
ok.
i never posted a reel of highlights – i posted a couple game winning plays when there was a question of whether tyreke had them.
if you prefer a different way of looking at it….
http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
tyreke 13th in the league using their definition of ‘clutch’ time. curry – 46th.
despite kobe’s terrible track record as a game winner he was #2 for the year.
Seriously dude...
First, your definition of “Tyreke is 13th in the league in crunch time” needs to be analyzed. You’re simply sorting per minute performance statistics in the last 5 minutes of close games based on points scored.
This greatly overvalues guys who chuck up a lot of shots (e.g. Kobe, Evans, Ellis) because, though their shooting percentages drop (e.g. Kobe, Evans, Ellis), and they stop passing the ball (e.g. Kobe), they still score a bunch of points BECAUSE THEY’RE CHUCKING WORSE THAN GEORGE COSTANZA!
Simply by virtue of hoisting up 30.5 shots and 29.8 shots per 48 minutes, Evans and Ellis score lots of points at the end of close games, though they score inefficiently WRT everybody else in the top 20 of “points scored in the last 5 minutes of close games” with the exception of Derrick Rose. Because they both chuck up a lot of shots, they are #13 and #17 on the list of “people who score the most points in crunch time.” Are you trying to tell me that Monta is an excellent crunch time scorer too?
Furthermore, the argument was “Who do you want taking the game winner” not “Who do you want for the last 5 minutes.” Stop trying to change the subject.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
the original point was
whether tyreke had any evidence to back up the ‘media narrative’ that he was clutch and/or had some game winning experience.
i posted 2 shots he took at the buzzer to win games and 1 steal he made at the end of the game to close out a victory. that was evidence i presented.
the response was an attempt to discredit those 3 pieces of evidence by broadening the description of clutch or deflecting to talk about how kobe is a ball hog – none of which have anything to do with the original point.
it all goes back to – does tyreke have game-winning experience/success? yes.
i posted 2 shots he took at the buzzer to win games and 1 steal he made at the end of the game to close out a victory. that was evidence i presented.
So three pieces of evidenced cherry picked for their positive feedback is sufficient and should not be questioned further? So, making a youtube video of Kobe’s numerous game winners means he does it regularly? No, sorry, that’s just not true.
the response was an attempt to discredit those 3 pieces of evidence by broadening the description of clutch
No, the response was to broaden the definition of “clutch” from “Hey, can you find me a video of this guy doing something good in the clutch” to “Hey, in all clutch situations, how has this guy performed?”
Referencing Kobe’s ballhoggyness was merely an example attempting to illustrate that you can show a few highlights of a guy, when in reality, he’s not actually that effective in game winning situations, he just gets lots of attempts in game winning situations.
it all goes back to – does tyreke have game-winning experience/success? yes.
Seriously? Know who else has “game-winning experience/success?”
Now, convince me that Evans can actually convert game winning opportunities more efficiently than Kobe and that he doesn’t just ball hog it up and converts one every now and then because “Sometimes even a blind mouse finds the cheese.”
I’m looking for something like: The Kings had the ball in a tied game or down by one with the shot clock off X times this year, Y times Tyreke took the last shot, and he scored Z times. Please tell me X, Y, and Z. Don’t just show me a cool video of him succeeding once.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m looking for something like: The Kings had the ball in a tied game or down by one with the shot clock off X times this year, Y times Tyreke took the last shot, and he scored Z times. Please tell me X, Y, and Z. Don’t just show me a cool video of him succeeding once.
And even with that information, don’t forget that in small sample sizes, there’s often illusions of “clutch” results that are just the noise in the system. Ridiculously few players have ever been shown to be statistically significantly different from their normal non-‘clutch’ time performance to suggest that it’s a special ability different from just being a good player.
Yeah, I know
And especially for a rookie with limited statistical evidence, there’s not gonna be much there. I just wanted to point out that succeeding once is NOT evidence that he’s “good in the clutch.”
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
by my memory
4 times that i can remember tyreke took a potential game winning shot (or had the ball)
2 of those times – that were posted nuggets/bucks – he made the shot.
2 of those times – cavs/lakers – he didn’t get a shot off.
that put’s him at 50% based on my memory. somebody might be able to reference more.
yes statististically that is insignificant. but the media chatter is often based on the insignificant.
I knew...
…Kobe had hit a bunch this season. I actually thought he was tops this year. Still, he’s been laded for being the most clutch closer in the league for several years, when the reality simply didn’t bear it out, which is what I’m speaking to about media narrative.
Down the stretch?
The Warriors were already out of playoff contention down the stretch. Therefore it didn’t matter.
Well, for us, something did matter down the stretch and it was Don Nelson’s career win total.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
We all must be delusional
If we are even saying the word playoffs when talking about the Warriors and the Kings in the next 3 or 4 years.
by jstnblke41 on Apr 15, 2010 2:46 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I don't others do
I think it should be co ROY
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Yet he started 77 games.
Out of the 80 he playted. And he started the first 2 games of the year.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
What GSW_GANGSTA meant was
Curry walked into the Stephen Jackson mess when the team had a clear scoring/ball handling leader (Monta). He was NOT handed the keys to the royce when he walked in the door.
Meanwhile, Evans was given complete leeway from day 1. He walked in and they said, “Here, take the ball and just do you thing. Kevin Martin is out for a while, everybody else sucks at scoring, Beno Udrih was terrible last year, so… you do whatever you want, we’ll stand back and watch.”
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions
And where is that Tyreke Evans or the Kings fault?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And regardless of Kevin Martin
Beno had a hell of a comeback year. Beno was, IMO, the real reason the Kings traded Kevin. He fit better than anybody had anticipated with Tyreke.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It tells a story of why the first couple months of the year aren’t a fair comparison.
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
Blame the Warriors organization. Blame Nelson. Maybe even Curry himself.
Not the Kings or Tyreke Evans.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Not saying it was Tyreke's fault...
Just that his relatively better statistical performance early in the year doesn’t make him a better player.
For example, Chris Douglas-Roberts was putting up some MONSTER numbers until the Nets organization realized that he still sucked. Why? Because he was shooting more, because they were drawing up plays for him.
My point is that there are reasons players score more or fewer points that have no relation to their skills as a basketball player.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You know
that you won three more games last year, right? I know your roster wasn’t great this year, but I don’t know how you guys can all say that Curry makes his teammates better.
With the addition of Tyreke , and the loss of Kmart, we managed to win eight more games than we did last year.
[…] I don’t know how you guys can all say that Curry makes his teammates better.
Did Tyreke Evans play with D-League players and Devean George? Do you realize how much better off guys like Anthony Tolliver and Chris Hunter were from playing with Curry?
[…] and the loss of Kmart, […]
I thought everyone knew — as well a Kings fans — that his loss made your team instantly better considering that Evans didn’t play well with him.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL @ Kmart, good one :)
I know you didn’t have much to work with this season, I’m more making the point that our roster is still not in great shape and the addition of Tyreke netted us eight wins.
Also, with Tyreke’s help, or lack there of, Beno had one of the best years of his career.
I know you didn’t have much to work with this season, I’m more making the point that our roster is still not in great shape and the addition of Tyreke netted us eight wins.
Anthony Randolph, Raja Bell, Andris Biedrins, Kelenna Azubuike and Brandan Wright played in 20 percent of the games. I’m sorry that Stephen Curry could not lead his group of super-duper D-League players to a sparkly eight-game improvement in wins. Clearly, he doesn’t make his teammates better.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1 on LOL on KMart
And Tyreke production went down when playing along Kmart. But Curry need to deal with Ellis and Maggette but still manage to make his contribution and score a bunch
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
You must not know much abou the Warriors
They set or tied a record this year for most D league call-ups in a year. Stephen Jackson was traded, Jamal Crawford was traded, almost all of our core besides Curry and Ellis were injured for a huge part of the year. It’s actually pretty amaazing that anyone could lead practically a D league team to more than 20 wins.
Ws had 20 guys (19 really with Raja getting 1 game run in) play this year. Last year they had 17 guys play. Last year they won more games. Where was the improvement??
It’s not how many guys play in a year, it’s how many guys play in each game, and the quality of the players. Obviously the Warriors had more guys play this year because they had more injuries. The point is Curry played with d leaguers, and made them look good and play well. Of course you’re going to probably have less wins when you are replacing Stephen Jackson’s minutes with Morrow, George, and Williams. Same thing with replacing Crawford with Watson. If you watched Warriors games, you would already know that Curry makes his teammates way better.
You expected us to improve with Anthony Randolph, Raja Bell, Andris Biedrins, Kelenna Azubuike and Brandan Wright playing in 20 percent of the games?
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
How many players
does each team have that would play minutes on a contender?
I would say that the Dubs have three, Curry, Ellis, Maggette.
I would also say we only have two, Evans & Landry.
We may have better role players, but that’s exactly what they are.
Valid point. BTW, I’m not trying to knock Curry’s game. He’s legit, and going to be great. It’s impossible to know what your record would have been had you been healthy.
Um...
yeah, both our teams suck, I get it.
I’m not here to argue or convince you that our guy should be ROY. I’m just here because I think this article doesn’t give an accurate picture of the ROY race, which is fine.
If you want to write a homer article and sit around talking about how awesome you are, I don’t care. Just don’t go posting it on other team’s sites like it’s news.
I think they are both great rookies, but this article uses nothing of value to back up it’s claims, that’s all.
I hope you're aware
I didn’t write this. And on the contrary…the Kings were .500 with Martin and Evans together. The Warriors are a game above .500 with ellis & curry.
And that’s without ANY of their other players. What you have to understand is you guys are not a .500 team w/o Martin, and a horrible team with ONE of your bigs missing.
We have FOUR bigs missing. Landry, Hawes, Thompson, May or Brockman. All four are gone. How in the hell do you expect to win games? You can’t…
And you can’t even make the argument that Curry didn’t improve his team at all. What would the Kings record be without all of those bigs? I’m sure people would tear and tear at Evans for ‘making his team worse’.
Kings +8 wins with Evans
Warriors -3 wins with Curry
i’m not arguing anything
FACT – Kings record improved with Evans on the team. IMPROVEMENT
FACT – Ws record worsened with Curry on the team. NOT AN IMPROVEMENT
For the record – Kings roster had the least amount of NBA experience of any team in the league. So despite the D-Leaguers – the Ws had a more NBA experienced team than the Kings.
Sorry folks, I think it’s time to take off that ‘We Believe’ t-shirt off.
That statement is not valid at all. Did you just totally ignore the comments that were made towards your statement above?
You must not know much abou the Warriors They set or tied a record this year for most D league call-ups in a year. Stephen Jackson was traded, Jamal Crawford was traded, almost all of our core besides Curry and Ellis were injured for a huge part of the year. It’s actually pretty amaazing that anyone could lead practically a D league team to more than 20 wins.
It’s not how many guys play in a year, it’s how many guys play in each game, and the quality of the players. Obviously the Warriors had more guys play this year because they had more injuries. The point is Curry played with d leaguers, and made them look good and play well. Of course you’re going to probably have less wins when you are replacing Stephen Jackson’s minutes with Morrow, George, and Williams. Same thing with replacing Crawford with Watson. If you watched Warriors games, you would already know that Curry makes his teammates way better.
You expected us to improve with Anthony Randolph, Raja Bell, Andris Biedrins, Kelenna Azubuike and Brandan Wright playing in 20 percent of the games?
Do you realize that the players on our team missed a crazy combined 500 or so games.
Like this see?
This mental hospital invitee
still trying to argue that half a warriors team didn’t ‘improve’ after losing vitrually every valuable player to injury for at least 20 games except stephen curry.
What a knockoff.
Oh…and
The Warriors are in the top 5 youngest teams in the league. The Kings…arent. End of discussion.
oops
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/2/23/1323056/2010/2/23/1323056/is-paul-westphals-kings-rotation
“By this measure, Sacramento has the most inconsistent rotation in the league, less consistent than even that of Golden State, with its rampant injuries, somewhat quirky coach, parade of D-League call-ups and one trade. Golden State’s three most frequently used line-ups have played a combined 273 minutes. Sacramento’s three most frequently used line-ups have played a combined 266 minutes.”
?
the stat measured which 5 guys played the most minutes together on the team – regardless of whether they started or not. most likely with every team the starters would be this group but not necessarily.
Try and use common sense
If you have 14-16 players…there are going to be more changes in the rotation.
If you have 8 players…chances are you use the same rotation…
EVERY TIME.
And what remained constant throughout the Kings season?
If Tyreke is in, give the ball to him and watch.
Also, to be noted, the quoted “most heavily used line ups” for the Kings & Warriors were:
Beno Udrih, Tyreke Evans, Andres Nocioni, Jason Thompson, Spencer Hawes
vs.
Stephen Curry, Monta Ellis, Anthony Morrow, Vladimir Radmanovic, Mikki Moore
So, on one hand you’ve got your expected day 1 starting 5, if I’m correct about the Kings. Meanwhile, the Warriors most consistent starting line up included an NBA re-re-tread who was supposed to be keeping the last seat on the bench warm and a guy who was only on the team for cap space purposes.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Garcia?
Really? Didn’t know he was getting that good.
Can’t believe I forgot Martin, though he begged out of town once the team handed the keys over to Evans…
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
machismo
garcia isn’t that good. he just has heart. something the kings completely lacked last year. i think it was more psychological than anything else.
projected starting 5 for the kings were evans, martin, garcia, thompson, & hawes.
Please read more carefully before writing.
Nowhere did DFiB mention the “projected starting 5”. He presented the most common lineup that actually got used in both cases.
Your “nope” is a careless nonsequitur.
He did say expected
Which is something similar to projected.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
tool.
“So, on one hand you’ve got your expected day 1 starting 5, if I’m correct about the Kings.”
Expect: To look forward to; to believe to be probable.
Project: To plan in the mind.
I completely apologize to all the readers and DFiB in particular for swapping the word “expected” for the more common sports term “projected”.
I kinda implied it
Please read more carefully before writing ;-)
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
FACT – Kings record improved with Evans on the team. IMPROVEMENT
FACT – Ws record worsened with Curry on the team. NOT AN IMPROVEMENT
That is an absolutely pitiful argument considering everything we dealt with this season with our roster.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
If Curry had his regular bigs to pass to rather than D-Leaguers, his assist total would go up.
Evans had his regular bigs most of the season and still averaged less assists than Curry. And I’m sure most of those assists came on plays which consisted of him holding the ball most of the possession, trying to find his shot, and if it wasn’t there, pass to a teammate as a last resort. Curry actually knows how and is willing to set up his teammates and take shots that are open.
"Monta is the MAN." -Bob Fitzgerald
by WarriorForLife on Apr 15, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions
There's...
…a number of reasons we were worse. We had virtually no proper front-line this year. Entering the season nobody quite knew how the positional battes would shake out, though now it’s clear that if Ellis is to have any future with us, he’ll have to play the two guard.
I’ll glady cop to this being wholly speculative, but I can’t envision Curry in a backcourt with Kevin Martin and it not working out. Why is it that he was traded to Houston? Does Tyreke command the rock to that extent?
Maybe it was like our situation?
Martin (like Ellis) felt overshadowed by a new toy?
"It's like Will Smith, remember the Fresh Prince? Get the ball don't let nobody else shoot? That's kinda what the offense can be sometimes, and they're just standing around waiting for Monta to make a play"
-MT2
by golden_solitude on Apr 15, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
conflicting styles
martin is strictly a catch & shoot guy to be effective. back door cuts, bigs in the high post, etc. if he doesn’t get the ball he sulks in the corner making faces.
kings didn’t run that offense so much anymore not just because tyreke was there but also the resurgence of beno. both those guys run the pick & roll effectively. the kings changed under westphal and kmart couldn’t make the switch. he needs that adelman offense to be effective.
I don’t know how you guys can all say that Curry makes his teammates better.
You can’t.
The majority of the returning players played more or less like they did the year before or played a bit worse, similar to the effect Evans had. Very few players actually have big effects on how well their teammates play.
but I don’t know how you guys can all say that Curry makes his teammates better.
Then I question how many times you watched the Warriors.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
but I don’t know how you guys can all say that Curry makes his teammates better.
Well most of them were hurt so obviously he couldn’t make them better? Who knows what will happen next year when his teammates are actually on the court?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Curry is the only play other than Osacr and MJ to have 5 or more 30 and 10 games?
30 and 10? Wilt AVERAGED 37.6 PPG and 27 R in his rookie year, that’s way more than 30 and 10.
He was also ROY, league MVP and allstar MVP . No calls for co ROY’s that year :>)
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
..
Wasn’t that referring to 30 points and ten assists? Not rebounds? I don’t know if Wilt did that too, just saying don’t think they’re talking about boards.
by yo on Apr 15, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t know if Wilt did that too,
No , he only had 2.3APG to go along with those 37.6 PPG and 27 RPG. It took him 9 seasons to max out at 8.6 APG average. IIRC he decided to get more assists that year to silence the critics ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Those assists came at the expense of critics
But he also did it cuz Alex Bannum urged him to do that. It was a bit of both. But even then, Wilt had 3 years OVER 5 assists (including the 8.6 number).
Any way you look at it, Wilt was ridiculously good.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I take that back
Wilt had 4 years over 5 assists including his 2nd year in SF.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And yet, despite the hype and the numbers, he could never beat Russel
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair...
…Russell’s open about the fact that he doesn’t think an undisputed star should have to kill himself in practice the way a role player might, and I tend to agree. Allen Iverson, for example, had a legitimate beef during his infamous “practice” press conference; if you’re going to play somebody that long and that hard, and basically live or die by them, they’re going to need to take it easier in practice than Scott Padgett might.
C's had so much talent in those years
They had, I think, as much as 7 HOF"s at one point. Cousy, Russell, Havlicek, Sam & KC Jones, Frank Ramsay, Bill Sharman are the 7 I think that were there during the 60’s.
Red Auerbach was a genius no matter what you think of him.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I also forgot Tommy Heinsohn
But he wasn’t inducted as a player. Only a coach (if I remember right).
1962-63 C’s had 7 of those guys (but not Sharman).
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I take that back
Heinsohn was inducted as a player. (I don’t think it was warranted though.)
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Tommy point revoked!!!!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I suck.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
LOL
Actually I think that’s why they were such a dynasty. Because there were only 8-12 or so teams for much of that decade.
Once the NBA expanded different challenges emerged. Now the lottery has pretty much made the NBA as fair as possible with parity.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And yet, despite the hype and the numbers, he could never beat Russel
cause it’s a team sport . Lebron couldn’t beat Orlando by himself either.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
thanks for putting up some arguments for Reke
Evans is deserving of the award, for sure. He has been consistent and the focal point of the other team’s defensive efforts. You can’t blame the poor play of the bigs on him as he was penetrating and dishing for easy hoops.
However, I also haven’t seen the above-the-rim play that you would expect from a 6’6" SG. He can penetrate effortlessly and finish with contact, but doesn’t seem particularly kobe-esque.
"That’s Chavey; he’s a good athlete. He can play anywhere … except second base. He’s not that good." -M. Ellis
Definitely Curry should be
The rookie of the year no doubt about it. I watch my game thru NBA league pass. So whenever they are playing on the road. I always listen to the opposing team announcer. Everybody love Steph Curry. Even the Portland announcer last night said since Curry take over the point Warriors is 8-8 so it is a .500 wins.
Stephen Curry is loved by his teammates. Don Nelson recently referred to the extraordinary chemistry in the Warriors’ locker room, calling the Warriors’ young core of players “Curry’s guys.”
How did Stephen Curry earn his teammates respect? By being an extraordinary player and point guard, certainly. But also by being unselfish. By looking for the pass before looking for the shot. By working on his defense. By being a workhorse. By being a leader.
And I hope this end the Curry and Ellis debate. I mean we proven that Curry could lead this team and if only Ellis allow it to we can be a better team next year.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
Curry and Ellis debate
Debate?
Nellie didn’t even mention Monta after the game last night, despite his having a very solid game statistically.
The more games I watch, the more I think Monta just needs to go. At this point I’d consider moving him for pretty much any solid citizen with a matching-but-significantly-shorter contract. Can you say … Troy Murphy (1 year, $12M)? If Indiana called and proposed that deal, I’d pull the trigger. And if we lucked into Wall or Turner, I’d make the call to Indiana, and even throw in some more talent to entice them.
I think the Warriors brass will (and probably should) try to hold out for more than just salary ballast … but either way it seems pretty clear to me that Monta’s going to be much-discussed in trade talks this offseason.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions
The more games I watch, the more I think Monta just needs to go.
Wait, but I thought “Monta + Biedrins = FUTURE!!”?
(Just giving you a hard time man!)
Golden State of Mind :: Always keeping it... "Unstoppable Baby!" | SBNation.com
by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 15, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Haha, yeah … I deserve it. And you pretty much called it. Monta and Biedrins are pretty decent players, but at $20M total they’re not exactly pillars of a solid NBA salary structure.
I’m still basically OK with Biedrins at $9M … he looked awful this season, but rebounded well and shot efficiently, as always. I give him a mulligan for playing through a pretty nasty injury. An athletic 6’11" rebounding fool is always a valuable thing to have, even if he can’t create his own shot and only plays 20-25 minutes a game. I kinda like the idea of a Biedrins/Cousins tandem, if we’re lucky enough to get Cousins.
Monta’s regression is more worrisome to me. As a primary ballhandler this season he had even worse court vision, handles, decision-making, and hoops IQ than I expected … and my expectations were pretty low. As a SG … well, he improved his 3 pt. shooting, but he’ll clearly never be a natural in this regard. (He puts way too much “legs” into his shot, imo). And he looks to have lost a bit of the explosiveness that made him such a great finisher, pre-moped. (His sharp decrease in rebounding may owe something to his ost explosiveness as well). As for D … I think the effort is there, but he’ll always be 6’3" with stumpy l’il arms, and — as on offense — no real head for the game. I mean, I’d still love him as a Vinnie Johnson-style 3rd/combo guard making the MLE … but at $11M? No thanks.
So … can I assume you’d be on board with the trade idea I posted a couple of weeks ago: Monta and Biedrins to Boston for a rickety Kevin Garnett?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Debate?
Nellie didn’t even mention Monta after the game last night, despite his having a very solid game statistically.
During the start of the season there is always a hurdle that Ellis is the future or Curry will be our next point guard. But now the end of the season it is clearly that Curry is better without Monta or if Monta take the back seat.
So you agree that we need to trade Ellis? When some still believe Ellis is our future.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
Monta recently has played off the ball
Nellie has given Curry a little more of the load initiating the offense. It showed last night almost perfectly.We need to just have Monta off the ball like last night and we will be fine
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Exactly my point
thanks dubzfan
Curry and Monta could be Fisher and Kobe of the future. And who is Shaq? now we got George.
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
Monta could be Fisher
Ouch. I mean, I think he’s been kinda bad this season, but not Derek Fisher bad…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Fisher/Kobe is a terrible analogy. Neither will ever be close to greatness as Kobe nor as terrible as Fisher.
How about a better version of Ben Gordon/Derrick Rose of last season with some of the attributes switched around?
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 15, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Fisher/Kobe is a terrible analogy.
Haha, indeed. But you have to admit “George of the Jungle = Shaq” was pretty inspired.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
So you agree that we need to trade Ellis?
“Need” is strong, but unless we get a total cancer, scrub, or albatross in return, my general sense is that trading him would be an aggressive, smart, pro-active move that would pretty quickly pay dividends in terms of wins and losses.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
That...
…Garnett trade idea is interesting, I think mainly because Boston absolutely couldn’t turn it down and maintain any semblance of reason, considering just how fast the rickety-ness seems to be washing over KG. But at the same time, I feel like what I’ve seen of Hunter and Tolliver suggest to me that we could patch up good enough to support KG on the frontline. Even given his regress, Garnett is still a stud on the defensive end.
Hey...
…I saw Chris Webber’s first game in person at Oracle during his comeback- it was one of the most depressing basketball things I’d ever seen. I was never a huge fan of his game, but he was such an outlandish physical talent. I had been on the fence about bringing him back, and then one play sealed it; a rebound bounced about six feet in front of him, and he’d sealed his man off. But he just couldn’t do it. He tok a few steps for it, but you could almost see his knees creaking around, and somebody scooped up the ball and took off. It was terrible.
Garnett, on the other hand, seems to me at the very end of what you could consider his difference-making prime. He’s obviously a good two or three steps below his Minnesota years, but by that I mean he’s still good enough that with the proper backups and rotations he could help us in major ways. To compare acquiring Garnett to resigning Webber, certainly, is crazy- Garnett stands to be a much better player even next year than anybody could’ve hoped of Webber.
But why respond to any of Zack Vank’s thoughtful observations, when you can just repeat a lame, facile one-liner?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Putting legs into your shot takes away gross motor skill work from your arms, enabling you to focus on fine motor skills. People with soft shooting use their legs more.
This helps explain why big men tend to not be able to shoot as well from outside. Bigger men are heavier, having to do more work to propel their whole body, meaning they try to compensate with their arms to propel the ball, resulting in less accuracy.
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
Maybe I worded it wrong. Most of the truly great, natural perimeter shooters I’ve seen — Bird / Ray Allen / Miller / Mullin / Morrow / Curry et al. — seem not to put much “air” underneath their feet when they shoot. They take more like a set shot, very relaxed, infinitely repeatable. Monta’s shot from ±18 and beyond looks a bit too purposeful, with too much of a “jump”, and too many moving parts. Type of shot that looks OK when it falls, but like it could break down pretty easily with the slightest onset of fatigue. He just seems destined to be closer to a 30% shooter from beyond the arc than a 40% one. We’ll see.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 5:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I've...
…always had a certain hesitation regarding Monta. I felt a loyalty to him early, because I’d made a bet when they drafted him that he’d end up a star, and that came true as much as you might expect from somebody who started that anonymously. He’s no Curry, though, and he’s also an atypical sort of shooting guard, so I guess we’ll see. Biedrins, even as you don’t much care for his game or his contract, I’d reckon you’d admit wouldn’t make sense to trade right now, right? His value is lower than it’s ever been, and at the top of his game, the way he boards, plenty of teams would be willing to talk. Dealing from a position of weakness something bad teams can make themselves much worse doing.
by Zack Vank on Apr 15, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Biedrins, even as you don’t much care for his game or his contract, I’d reckon you’d admit wouldn’t make sense to trade right now, right? His value is lower than it’s ever been, and at the top of his game, the way he boards, plenty of teams would be willing to talk. Dealing from a position of weakness something bad teams can make themselves much worse doing.
My sentiments exactly. Rec.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I...
…suggested the Murphy idea very recently. His contract is a nice 12 million expiring for next season as well, and his value is stil high enough that he could either contribute for us in a nber of facets, or be attractive as a trade piece, moreso perhaps that Ellis with the longer deal.
attractive as a trade piece, moreso perhaps that Ellis with the longer deal.
So… you want somebody to give us a trade piece for Ellis that you admit is more valuable as a trade piece?
I’ve got this $5 bill. I’ll sell it to you for 24 quarters. You in?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, yeah, you could use this argument about any trade, and yet somehow … trades happen.
I dunno, Monta-for-Murphy seems fair enough from both perspectives that I could somewhat imagine it happening. Hansbrough steps in to replace Murph; and the Monta/Granger combo, while likely not very conducive to winning, could possibly generate a little buzz around the league and put a few butts in the seats…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt Indy will do that cuz they are near the luxury tax
And the Pacers reportedly wanted a young player plus distance from the luxury tax. An Ellis for Murphy swap won’t do that.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Saves them about a million bucks. Ws could take on a bit more salary if needed (Solomon Jones?) I guess it depends on how much “distance” they need.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah I understand that and it's a good point.
But I’m not sure they want Ellis either way. And, they have to be willing to take the money on for the 3 seasons beyond next year. I’m pretty sure they don’t want to do that either.
Either way, I don’t see a swap coming for a lot of reasons. The long term money factor of Ellis, his attitude and issue’s of the past is not likely to endear him towards the Indianapolis community, and that they will likely be more over the luxury tax than a swap with GS could get them under is another factor too.
I just don’t see Indy & GS being partners on this type of deal with those players involved.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think Ellis and Granger would be very interesting together. It’d be a fun experiment.
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
For whom?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I think...
…the confusion might be that I meant to type “than” instead of “that.”
Montay a pacer?
jeezus, we’re talkin about frickin practice, practice PRACTICE!
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 10:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Zach, common sense
Would a team that hasn’t been near the playoffs since Reggie Miller trade a big, expiring contract for…what? We need to trade Ellis for a dominant big. Not troy murphy
Er … what? What team is going to trade a “dominant big” for Monta Ellis?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Well...
…it seems odd to me that you’d simultaneously refer to Ellis simply as “what?” while also implying that there’s a dominating big man on the block for him. Ellis, for as rough as various areas of his game have been this year, still represents the most talent and potential the Pacers would have had at SG since Reggie hung them up. He had an inefficient year, but it’s by no means assured that’s a permanent dilemma. He’d also be entering a situation in which he’s paired with an already established team leader in Granger. I can see the reasons the Pacers might do it, even if I wouldn’t make that call in their situation.
In any case, what dominant big do you suppose we could snag for Ellis?
someone needs to make a call to petrie.
i’m sure petrie can send over the list of players he was offered for kmart – it will be the same list as monta. we ended up with landry. a decent player but a guy that had made 1 or 2 starts in his career – not exactly a dominant big man. i wouldn’t be setting your expectations too high.
Landry
is a special big. He’s explosive, he’s a post powerhouse, and you can give the ball to him in the 4th and make him work in the clutch. Of course with Evans…who gets the ball in the 4th…
gassed.
landry said it himself – he was still learning how to be a starter, pacing himself, etc. he was used to going 100% all the time and had to learn how to pace himself in games. a training camp together and tweaks to the offense and i’m guessing they’ll use him better next year.
Landry
is a special big
This implies a pretty broad definition of “special.”
He’s “a’ight,” or maybe pretty good. He’s a super-efficient scoring PF that has zero passing/playmaking skills, has fallen from off average to poor as a rebounder, and is a bit too short and slow to be dominant defender at his position.
Daryl Morey’s a smart dude. Landry likely wouldn’t have been moved if he was all that “special.”
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, yeah...
Because of Scola being in place, he was useless to the Rockets.
However, his shotblocking ability and explosiveness was valuable to a team like the Kings.
shotblocking ability
0.8 per 36 minutes?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
it's all relative
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=gsw
seeing as steph finished the year as the Ws leading shotblocker at .24 – that .8 does seem quite like Dikembe v 2.0
0.8 per 36 minutes?
Randolph 2.5
Turiaf 2.2
Biedrins 2.1
Hunter 1.6
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
link
did you check the link? obviously ESPN uses a minimum games played factor because they have him listed as the team leader for the year.
In the context of a discussion of Landry’s “shotblocking ability” in which a shotblocking rate had been referenced, it was pretty silly of you to cite Curry as the “Ws’ leading shotblocker.” What exactly was your point? Were you just funnin’?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That's pretty weird...
Maybe it’s because none of the other players on the Warriors roster played in enough games to qualify
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I did,
read below.
I like defense and winning amongst other things. I guess I am just wierd like that….
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 15, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
shenanigans!
If Curry does not get ROY, i say shenanigans! Officer Barbrady will need to know of this great injustice. Evans is good, there is no doubt, but Curry is better, hands down. But, i am slightly biased considering i am Warriors fan not a Kings fan. Jennings? really? don’t get me wrong, he’s good but he’s not on the level of Curry or Evans.
Curry's numbers with a healthy team next year - predictions?
18 pts, 10 assists, 4 boards, 2.5 steals – all star numbers!
I'd say more assists actually
Something around
18/12/3.5/2 and raise his shooting % to 47/43/90
I really think his assist rate will skyrocket if he has better players (AR/Andris/Wright) to roll with.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
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by LostHawkGSW on Apr 15, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions
I hope you are right, but
if so I think his pt total goes down to about 15 – which I think he would be fine with.
As for “better” players to roll with – if you look at the numbers, not sure how much worse those d-leaguers were.
Tolliver – 11.7 pts per game
BWright – career avg. of 8.3
Reggie Williams – 15.2
A Randolph – 11.6 (career)
Hunter – 4.5
Beidrins – 5 (this season – 8 ppg for his career)
Granted – they are not as talented or have as much potential – but they play the game better right now imo. Curry makes guys better and these d-leaguers may have padded stats because of all the minutes they have to play as well.
That all being said, I hope the d-leaguers stick around and they have just as much a shot to start next year as the high draft picks. They’ve earned it.
by tjmax on Apr 15, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
18/12/3.5/2 and raise his shooting % to 47/43/90
He wouldn’t have to “raise” it much, as that’s pretty much exactly what he shot this year.
Also: assuming equal or greater minutes per game, you expect him to drop off by a full rebound a game? That would represent a major regression, and would royally suck.
As for 12 assists per game … haha. Nash led the league this year with 11.0. Only three NBA players managed better than 10.0 a game.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 10:39 AM PDT up reply actions
his board may go down when we have more bigs
If Nellie doesn’t need his guards to board as much, then that means are bigs are doing a better job on the boards. Not a bad thing – plus it frees up Curry and Monta to just focus on getting back on defense and running the offense
Every player needs to rebound his position well to help his team win. Especially on a team coached by Nellie that isn’t likely to run more than one dominant rebounder at a time. The fact that Curry rebounds his position so well is one of his best qualities as a PG; Nellie has noted this several times. I don’t see any reason to think his suddenly rebounding 20-25% worse would allow to him to “focus” more on other stuff. Did you see how vulnerable the Blazers’ D looked last night when Curry would clear the glass and start sprinting down the floor?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’d be fine with 21 / 7-8 next season. 18/12 is pretty outrageous even for Steph Curry. I don’t expect him to be better than Deron Williams by next season.
18 & 12 next season?
That’s incredible regardless of what season a player is in.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
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Sactown Royalty’s thoughts on this article
http://www.sactownroyalty.com/2010/4/15/1423906/2009-2010-nba-rookie-of-the-year
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by Atma Brother ONE on Apr 15, 2010 10:20 AM PDT reply actions
Love from Sactown?
They aren’t exactly in love with the article. They’re pretty harsh.
Golden State of Mind: Unstoppable Baby!
by Fantasy Junkie on Apr 15, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
Why wouldn’t people be harsh in response to an article that completely tears apart their rookie with few, if any, actual facts? If StR wrote an article ripping Curry to shreds I’d expect a lot of anger over here, and rightfully so. Both players are extremely talented and both have very bright futures.
Why It Should Be Co-ROY's
As a W’s and Curry fan, of course I think he’s better than Tyreke. (And in fairness to the national media, we got to see every game and have a sense of the intangibles and that “greatness” element that they might not see if they just watch Sportscenter.)
But it doesn’t matter what I or any of you think. It’s not our opinions that count.
So let’s try thinking like the NBA and the sports media. Picture a cross between David Stern and Hannah Storm. (Or don’t – that’s kinda nasty.)
But seriously, here’s why Co-Rookie of the Years is the way to go:
The NBA and the media have always loved and will always love creating imaginary rivalries between great players.
Think Bird/Johnson (that one was real, of course).
Think Kobe/Lebron.
Think any great player/another great player.
The NBA gets great marketing mileage when those two play each other. And even when they don’t, they still get great marketing because the media STILL has those endless (often useless) discussions of “who’s better?”
I think it’s more likely than not that Curry will become one of the great ones. I guess it’s possible that Evans does as well.
Imagine the marketing, the hype, the craziness as the media and the NBA promote this matchup of co-ROY’s for years to come. It would be an instant “rivalry” … and people eat that sh** up.
In other words, Co-ROY’s means a lot of money for the NBA for many years, and it means reams of meaningless stories and SportsCenter segments for years to come.
It’s a win-win for the two institutions that really decide this thing.
by 3RunSchott on Apr 15, 2010 10:32 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
All the season awards
are voted on by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters, including rookie of the year.
exactly
i.e. the media, who will give themselves something to talk about for years if they’re both ROY.
Agreed
I am impressed that babasin managed to make his/her/its comment without actually reading the post. Well done, babasin, well done. I am not sure your comment is actually accomplishes anything relative to the original post (in fact, it is crucial to the logic employed by 3RunSchott). I think the point here is that the NBA would be better served if both players were awarded ROY, not that the league CAN award ROY without the sportswriters and sports-media voters. The proposed scheme is not what will happen, but rather what would better serve the short and long term health of sports media talking heads, the absolutely wretched franchises involved, and the league as a whole. This is not a likely scenario, but rather a suggestion that would be advantageous to all involved. By eschewing those interests, the league misses yet another valuable opportunity to shore up its fan base with additional casual fans.
by onelifetolivie on Apr 15, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
In my opinion, 3RunSchott seemed to be implying that these two being co-ROY would be good for the NBA, and that the league had something to do with who got the award.
ha, didn't mean to start a fight
… but since you mentioned it: while the sportswriters and broadcasters have the votes, let’s not pretend that the NBA – as powerful as the NFL to be sure and as likely to protect/promote their interests thru whatever influence they have – doesn’t have some sort of behind the scenes say in what happens in cases like this. call me a conspiracy nut, that’s ok.
If the NBA didn’t have any say so Dell Curry would still get his vote. It feels to me that the national media love Steph, but they are clearly pushig for Evans w/ the 20/5/5 reasoning
Damn Despotism! Who knew that it would lead to favortism towards Tyreke Evans!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
How much does Curry care?
He seems more interested in building team chemistry and getting wins and having fun than individual accolades.
i didn't realize touchy feely was a category for R.O.Y.
wow. talk about reaching. too funny to read the justification for Curry over Evans. too bad the stats don’t back it up.
both teams suck
1 guy scores more a game
1 guy passes more by .1
1 guy rebounds more
1 guy is one of the best rookie defenders in the league
come on people. both guys had a great year, but only 1 guy did something that was done only 3 times before. have some objectivity.
they don’t vote by position – make Reke a SG and he’s tied for the 2nd best passing SG in the league behind D-Wade. it’s not about position – it’s about talent.
doesn’t make teammates better – with essentially the same roster the kings gave up 5 (yes 5) points less a game – why??? because it wasn’t a constant layup line to the basket for opposing guards. from the beginning of the year the kings have said the reason they drafted the guy is he could get to the basket at will AND when he went up against jennings etc. nobody could get around him. it’s not all about offense – you have to factor in Curry getting abused in the post too.
chasing stats – yep. guilty as charged – Tyreke’s 2nd game as a rookie he scored 22 pts. it was obvious then he was all about the 20-5-5. the guy started putting up #s in October and didn’t quit putting up the #s until april. sorry Steph but the season starts with Game 1. Feel free to fault the kings for a bad marketing campaign but tyreke put up the #s all season long – not just in april.
as for making teammates better – what does steph have to back that up. 1 more win?? i know it isn’t on the defensive end. with all of those D leaguers and a Nellie system he should have put up way better numbers than he actually did. seriously.
like i said – both are great young players but if you have any objectivity you have to recognize tyreke wins because he did it from day 1, put up better numbers, and has a better defensive game. the award isn’t for being a better shooter – it’s for being a better player and this year tyreke was the better player.
I'm a kings fan
but I don’t think Tyreke was going for 20-5-5 since day one. I think someone researched that when it looked like that was going to be his average and realized how few players did that in the past. I think he was trying to get it in the last few games, but I don’t care. It actually made the last bunch of games fun to watch as a fan. It gave us something to rally around so to speak.
early success
the point was – reke was putting up numbers from the start – and people are trying to make it out like he was being overly selfish the end of the year to make the 20-5-5 mark. i’m saying he was doing in april the same thing he was doing in november….
November
Reke: 20.3-5.5-5.1
Hey, babsin
Thanks for coming over and stating your opinions. It’s not easy coming to another team’s page and posting, but you did a good job stating your thoughts and staying with the conversation.
@worldblee on Twitter.
Thanks
and, just so you know, I am stoked that we both seemingly have future all stars on our squads now. I love Curry’s game, and he seems like a great guy. I am looking forward to our teams going at it, and hopefully meeting up in the playoffs in the future.
Monta is key to the Warriors future
I keep reading bloggers say that the Warriors need to get rid of Monta, so Curry can get to his full potential. In my opinion Curry needs Monta’s scoring threat to become the “next Nash.” Monta is top 5 in the league in creating his own shot behind Kobe Lebron Wade Melo…. then Monta. You are talking about an elite scoring threat. In the beginning of the year he didnt know his role, Monta thought he was the point guard. Look at the way his game has grown over this past season and Curry is getting his and becoming a better player. I’ll admit Monta came into this season with the wrong mindset. His thinking was this is my team im the point guard and I need to takeover. His game is far from that these days.
Monta and Curry are the best back court in the NBA, period. MOnta next year will play like he did in the 07-08 season with Diddy, with better passing and defense.
With Monta and Curry your talking second and third in the LEAGUE in steals.
In conclusion Monta takes a ton of pressure off Curry and Curry will become a better player because of it. They will both become All-Stars in the future then add Randolph to be the beast that he should become and your talking about a very talented/dangerous team.
by Buike on Apr 15, 2010 11:03 AM PDT reply actions 5 recs
Monta FTW
I totally agree, Buike. Watching Curry improve this season has been phenomenal. Yes, his selection in the draft killed the Amare deal, and Monta and Jack went off the deep end. Can anyone argue with Jack that Cohan-owned Warriors had no desire to win? But, as things turned out, the players and the coach have proven to turn lemons into lemonade. Monta has proven he can guard Roy and Kobe. He’s extended his range, and is an unstoppable force. Next year, look for him to force contact on his drives and finish better at the rim.
I don’t think he needs to go for an expiring contract. We need elite talent to build around, and I would like to see Monta get a little more respect for what he’s done, and can do on the court. Give Nelson one more season to see if he can find a way to create mismatches that no one in the league can stop.
"That’s Chavey; he’s a good athlete. He can play anywhere … except second base. He’s not that good." -M. Ellis
I agree
but the question is will Monta let Curry take over the team? I mean Monta is clearly subordinate to Diddy. But will Monta do the same thing to Curry for the sake of the team. I hope!
Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........
I keep reading bloggers say that the Warriors need to get rid of Monta, so Curry can get to his full potential.
Sounds like a bit of a straw man. Personally, I think the Warriors could stand to get rid of Monta because he makes a ton of money, does things that are pretty easy to replace, and is coming off a season in which he had a negative impact on wins. At the same time, he put up gaudy, inefficient scoring numbers that tend to make casual fans (and even some GMs) go ooh and ahh … so the Ws might actually get pretty fair value for him. As for “allowing Curry to get his full potential” … I think he’s got such a great head on his shoulders he’ll probably get there either way. But I think he’ll certainly be happier on a good team that doesn’t squander massive chunks of its payroll on inefficient 6’3" shooting guards with low hoops IQ.
Monta is top 5 in the league in creating his own shot behind Kobe Lebron Wade Melo…. then Monta.
What are you using to measure this? Surely not scoring efficiency, as Monta has been poor in this regard. He has been pretty “good” at hoisting up a ton of shots, but if he’s not doing that efficiently, he’s hurting the team more than helping it.
Look at the way his game has grown over this past season
You mean, down? He’s a much worse rebounder, much less efficient scorer, and worse at taking care of the ball than he was two years ago.
Monta and Curry are the best back court in the NBA, period.
Asserting it doesn’t make it so. Nor does ending your assertion with the word “period.” Nor does the fact that Boob Fitzgerald parrots it constantly. Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?
In conclusion Monta takes a ton of pressure off Curry and Curry will become a better player because of it. They will both become All-Stars in the future
Lots of wishin’ and hopin’ in there. I mean it’s possible, but, barring extreme youth, injury or other weirdness, I always think it’s better to assume a player will continue what he’s done in his most recent season. Monta was a below average starting shooting guard this season. It’d be nice if he got better, but I wouldn’t bank on it. What exactly is his upside? Even at its most rosy, it doesn’t seem sufficiently high to me to outweigh the benefit of clearing $11M from the books and spreading his minutes among players that are longer, smarter, less ballhoggish, and more efficient.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
+1
This.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions
GO back to sleep
According to the money Lebron Kobe Wade Melo make and other SCORERS Monta doesnt make much. If you read my post I’m measuring on scorers who can create their own shot, Monta is one of the elites in the game and is paid way less then Kobes 3yr eighty something million. Im not saying Monta is in any of their league as a player but scoring he falls right behind them.
A “much less efficient scorer” how is that when he averages 5 more points this season then last and the referrees give Monta no love, he will gain that real soon. He is starting to gain range in his jump shot. Why wouldn’t he hoist up all those shots when you have no one around that can score the ball. Monta is getting the system that is in place, in the beginning and middle of the season who was scoring the basketball, what system were the Warriors playing? Why not shoot when the whole team is confused on whats going on.
And yes in my opinion they are the best backcourt in the NBA: ability to score, pass, rebound for a pair of 6’3 guards on a team who doesnt rebound, defend ( game against OKC Monta took on the role of guarding the NBA scoring champ, even though he had 40 he struggled in the second half. Monta almost stole the game agains’t LAL while picking KOBE’s pocket.) I can keep going.
Spread the minutes to who D-league call ups, even though Williams and Morrow can ball they are not starters in the NBA, they are very good role players Williams more then Morrow. Make Williams the 6th man and trade Maggette to a championship contender, thats how you free up money and playing time, not by trading your best player.
Time to wake up or go back to sleep and dream about the Lakers
by Buike on Apr 15, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Time to wake up or go back to sleep and dream about the Lakers
Haha. Now that you’ve laid it so eloquently, who am I to argue?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Time to wake up or go back to sleep and dream about the Lakers
I am really worried about the future of the Lakers post Kobe?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d be worried about their immediate future in this year’s playoffs, if I were a Laker fan. They’ve looked like total crap the last few weeks. I really, really can’t wait to see LeBron or Howard take those mofos down. Or heck, even Durant … make it happen, Zombie Sonics!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions
bynum
lakers should be looking to move bynum to land their next backcourt star. he’s not going to be able to carry the franchise. hope for a big playoffs from him and move him for a pick & a player.
But I think he’ll certainly be happier on a good team
Wouldn’t all our players?
“and worse at taking care of the ball than he was two years ago.”
Statistically yes but we knew he was this bad for a while at turnovers, nothing new. He also expanded his game and off court traits as well so yes he did grow a good bit
Statistically since we like talking about stats so much there the most productive and explosive back court in the NBA
Also his contract is hardly an issue compared to Beans’ and Maggs’. Than Vlad as well is holding us back with his contract if he comes back
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Also he's elite at creating his own shot
Quickest guy out there, killer crossover, his spin, ability to run by people, get and open jumper etc. He’s up there
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
Leading your entire conference in steals per game doesn’t count?
I think it means you are gambling too much cause your team can’t defend? Bigger players don’t have to resort to steals as much and can conserve energy for a long haul season .
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 12:03 PM PDT reply actions
"conserve energy for a long haul season" ????
Because Curry didn’t conserve energy by making all those steals? Was so dead tired making those steals that he had such an AWFUL game #82?
Forty two points worth of tired, playing ALL game? Too tired. Guess that’s why he sucked in Feb, March and April.
Poor, tired Curry.
But I’m with the guy who sez give it to Reke so Curry has a chip next year. Can’t wait.
by WillyWhiteShoes on Apr 15, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
"conserve energy for a long haul season" ????
yeah, championship ball, not hit or miss slop ball.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Hah, nice.
But curious, which of the three would you start a team with?
All three are good, but if I’m picking one to anchor a team for (hopefully) 8-10 years, I’m picking Curry.
by WillyWhiteShoes on Apr 15, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
But curious, which of the three would you start a team with?
Well, I’d have maxed out the lotto balls first then see who I got then decide who to keep? Do what I possibly could to maximize the team chances. Point guards don’t play in a vacuum.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions
You didn't choose Reke?
The question was which one you choose of the three if you were starting a team. Hypotheticals can be in a vacuum, thank you.
Genetics:
“If he can develop a shot beyond 5 feet” is a pretty big “IF” to choose Reke over Curry, imho.
by WillyWhiteShoes on Apr 15, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The question was which one you choose of the three if you were starting a team. Hypotheticals can be in a vacuum, thank you.
I’d still need to know what the rest of the team was, does it have a big 2 guard or would I need size at the point etc. In a vacuum of only one player I’d take Lebron.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
genetics
the issue i see with curry is he’s not getting any bigger. he is a small quick guard – but very few of those guys go through their careers ala Nash and not get injured along the way.
i think we’ve seen 75% of curry’s potential so far. the guy is going to be one of the best shooters in the league for the next 10 years if he can stay healthy and he sees the court well so i’d expect 10 assists a game within 2 years. a solid 20-10 guy BUT
I would have a hard time picking against Tyreke. the guy put up 20 pts a game and can’t make a shot beyond 5 ft. his shooting is absolutely horrible. there is no guarantee it will improve – but if it does the guy is going to be in the same conversation as LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant. Despite the beauty of Curry’s game, I don’t see him ever being part of that conversation. He can reach Star status for sure but I don’t ever see him as a Superstar.
When you are as bad as the Kings or Ws – i think you have to gamble on getting a superstar.
but if it does the guy is going to be in the same conversation as LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant. Despite the beauty of Curry’s game, I don’t see him ever being part of that conversation. He can reach Star status for sure but I don’t ever see him as a Superstar.
You made my day. Kings fans really hope and pray that Evans is in the same boat as Melo, Durant, and Lebron…lmao
Carmelo and Durant aren’t really in the same boat as LeBron. And Durant seems to be getting on a different (i.e. better) boat from Carmelo, though he’s still far from LeBron’s boat, and not that likely to get there.
I’d let Evans get somewhere near Melo’s boat before starting to think about the HMS LeBron. Or really, I wouldn’t even bother thinking about the HMS LeBron, since the possibility of Evans ever boarding that ship is more at the level of fantasy than reality.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I voted for Jennings.
I would give the ROY of the year to Brandon Jennings. While Tyreke and Steph are getting ready to go back to their respective homes for the summer, Brandon Jennings is not only playing in the playoffs he has taken the reigns of his team. Reading the endorsements that he is getting from his teammates (especially Andrew Bogut) is truly surprising considering some thought he was a head case coming into the league. While Steph Curry probably has the highest ‘Basketball IQ’ of the three nominees, Brandon Jennings is the most natural passer. David Thorpe (of ESPN.com) has repeatedly said it would be a dream of any other player to play with such a natural distributor the caliber of Jennings.
35% FG shooting. Yes that’s terrible. Beyond terrible, that’s flat out unacceptable for any NBA player. But Jennings did shoot the 3 ball and free throws relatively well; his problem has been shot selection. If he had played in such a free flowing offense (as the Warriors) or a situation where winning and losing didn’t matter (Warriors and Kings) he probably would have been a better shooter this season.
Coach K once said that the only stat that matters for point guards is Win/Loss. Since winning is such an alien concept to Warrior fans most people just skip over that. Jennings is helping his team win; when he is on the court his team is better. His adjusted +/- is better than Steph Curry’s. (http://www.82games.com/)
Finally, there is defense. Again Warrior fans might be confused at what defense is and just focus on offensive categories. Defense is actually 50% of the game and it is the part when you don’t have the ball and try to stop the other team from scoring. While Steph Curry is a poor defender and Tyreke Evans is passable at best, Brandon Jennings is a great on ball defender. In Scott Skiles defense system, there is less of chance to try to be a free safety and pick passes but Jennings did post a decent amount of steals per game, even though anybody who watches NBA games would tell you that steals are a poor way to measure defense.
In conclusion, Steph Curry and Tyreke both had terrific rookie season and in comparing statistics they are neck in neck in who had the best rookie campaign. However Brandon Jennings had the best (subjective and an opinion, my opinion) rookie season and helped his team the most. I don’t know this for a fact, but I am sure Jennings would give up a Rookie of the Year Award to be in the playoffs and try to lead his team past the Hawks (which was very possible till Bogut went down).
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 15, 2010 12:14 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
PS,
I think Steph Curry is awesome and can be the best of the bunch. Curry is also the best of the three to deal with the luncay surronding the Warriors. We are lucky to have and hopefully we can build a very good team around him.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 15, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
While Tyreke and Steph are getting ready to go back to their respective homes for the summer, Brandon Jennings is not only playing in the playoffs he has taken the reigns of his team.
That’s a good argument for not letting them vote till after the playoffs. I could certainly see a good playoff run making a big difference in the validity of the award.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
That’s a good argument for not letting them vote till after the playoffs.
If the Bucks get past the Hawks and wins one game against the Magic, sans Bogut, with Brandon Jennings leading the way, he would have to win Rookie of the Year.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 15, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Brandon Jennings
is averaging 5.7 assists a game…
that’s not a natural passer.
Instead of per 36, per 40, or per game numbers,
why dont you check out his asst% or adjust stats for pace factor? Unless your content with inflated Warriors stats because of their absurd pace.
Thing B
by warriorsscore110 on Apr 15, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
He's a naturally skilled passer
Watch him play and he finds and gives people god open looks a lot
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
David Thorpe
David Thorpe: Kevin Martin’s personal coach and was rumored to help get him off the Kings to get out of Tyreke’s shadow. Not exactly unbiased.
impact: minimal
the only argument for jennings is that his team is making the playoffs. the bucks wouldn’t be making the playoffs if they were in the west – that’s not even factoring in the easier schedule they play.
…and his impact to that playoff team – in 15 of the Buck’s 46 wins, Jennings didn’t even score 10 points. In 33% of the teams wins, Jennings scored 7 pts below his season average. that doesn’t sound like a huge impact to me. sounds like an inconsistent rookie that is getting too much credit when the credit should be going to Bogut & Salmons
Going to mainly compare Curry and Jennings here....
But Jennings did shoot the 3 ball and free throws relatively well; his problem has been shot selection.
Jennings shot .374 from deep and .817 from the line per 36 this season. He FT is good, but I wouldn’t say his 3 ball is. He is taking more FGA than both Curry and Tyreke at a much lower percentage than both.
Brandon Jennings is the most natural passer.
Jennings is definitely one of, if not the, best passer in the rookie class. With per36 of 6.3 ast and AST% of 29.6, he’s not too shabby in that department. Still not Nash/CP3 status, but pretty darn good for a rookie.
If he had played in such a free flowing offense (as the Warriors) or a situation where winning and losing didn’t matter (Warriors and Kings) he probably would have been a better shooter this season.
If Curry had been given a leadership role early, and/or had NBA front line maybe the Warriors would have been .500. However, the fact is he didn’t, so there’s really no point in arguing what cold have happened.
Finally, there is defense.
I have not watched too many Bucks game closely to say how Jennings is as an on ball defender. I find this especially hard to gauge considering the totally different styles of defense the teams play. However, Curry does grab more defensive rebounds and more steals. It wouldn’t shock me if Jennings is a good on ball defender, and I’ll admit Curry is not a good defender. Curry would be average at best.
Jennings is helping his team win; when he is on the court his team is better.
Bucks do generally seem to do better when Jennings is on the floor. However, the fact is the Bucks are overall more talented than our d-league bunch. The Bucks could handle Jennings awful shooting because they have other guys that can put the ball in the hoop as well.
Brandon Jennings has the potential to be a great player, especially once he finds his shot again. However, I think people are giving Jennings too much credit for the Bucks making the playoffs. If Jennings does go out and have a spectactular playoff run, then he had a spectacular playoff run, but I am not sure his play up to then was in the same level as Tyreke and Curry during the season.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I voted for Stephen
Because of his continued growth through the year—gives me hope that he will turn out to be the best player of the three over his career. ROY shouldn’t just be based on stats, it should also look at the player’s career potential. But I’m fine with other players getting the spotlight—makes it easier to re-sign our players. Awards just add to their price tags without getting us more wins.
@worldblee on Twitter.
If you take potential future success into account, it wouldn't be Rookie of the YEAR.
You’d had to rename it to something like “Rookie with the best potential for future success”. It doesn’t flow nearly as well.
I BELIEVE IN THE POWER OF REDEMPTION BUT...
BEFORE anyone votes for tyreke evans, they should think to themselves,
do we really want a drive by shooting participant winning ROY?
do we REALLY want a drive by shooting participant winning ROY?
do we REALLY want a drive by shooting participant winning ROY?
Thanks for the good post that confirms that Evans may just be a me-first knuckle head. Stephen Curry is a much more gracious dude who happens to be a straight-up bballer.
STEPHEN CURRY FOR ROOKIE OF THE YEAR.
do we REALLY want a drive by shooting participant winning ROY?
Personally, I want the ROY voting to be based on players’ contributions on the basketball court, not on any questionable decisions they may or may not have made in their free time.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
decisions made during the free time
reflect the overall frame of mind of the player.
If you’re a great player and yet you have issues off the court, you should still get recognized for being a great player.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Well here's to the possibility there may be
THE FIRST EVER DRIVE BY ROOKIE OF THE YEAR!
do we really want a drive by shooting participant winning ROY?
never hear of that but HELL YES!! that would give the game maximum street cred
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Obvious ROY
Throw stats out the window guys…
One doesn’t need stats to see who the ROY is. All that is required is to have watched these two play. Sure, Tyreke’s beastly drives to the basketball are at times amazing to watch. He’ll score and/or get to the line with regularity that I have not seen from a rookie before. He’s a physical specimen to say the least. I’ll give him that.
But to watch Curry run the team, orchestrate the offense, work the pick-n-roll, shoot 3’s, drop floaters, drop dimes, shows the rest of the team the RIGHT way to play basketball, watch his unselfishness become contagious, etc… IT’S TRULY A THING OF MAGIC.
Curry just gets it…he gets it all. He plays the way the game should be played, period, on any level. If you’re a basketball purist, you really can’t help but smile and gush when you watch Curry play. You know you’re watching the beginning of greatness.
Haha. Werd.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
… actually, strike that. At first I thought ramg’s “basketball purist” line was meant as a dig at Evans; re-reading, I see it was much just an appreciation of the beauty of Curry’s game, which I share. So I guess I transfer my “werd” to ramg. Really, I shouldn’t have nosed into this one at all. Carry on…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey
I agree with him in that watching Curry is a joy. Heck, I watched him tear up my Blazers last night and I couldn’t help but smile at some of the moves he was pulling out on the court.
I just don’t think you can say he is the “obvious” choice for ROY because he is fun to watch.
...
I hear you Irh86, really I do.
But answer this:
What aspects does Tyreke excel in?
What aspects does Curry excel in?
I bet you your list will be a little bit longer with Curry’s.
I'll let this guy handle the debate
Tyreke doesn’t make his teammates better? Kings won 17 games last year with more veterans on the roster for more of the year. Only players really added this year were rookies or young guys.
Advanced stats are pace adjusted. I keep hearing Curry is a better passer, and he is a good one. Let’s take a look at these advanced stats
PER:
Tyreke 18.2
Stephen 16.3
TS%:
Tyreke .529
Stephen: .568
eFG%:
Tyreke: .473
Stephen .535
TRB%:
Tyreke: 8.1%
Stephen: 6.8%
AST%:
Tyreke: 26.1%
Stephen: 24.6%
STL%:
Tyreke: 2.1%
Stephen: 2.5%
TOV%:
Tyreke: 13.6%
Stephen: 16.5%
USG%:
Tyreke: 26.2%
Stephen: 21.8%
Offensive Win Shares:
Tyreke: 3.3
Stephen: 3.0
Defensive Win Shares:
Tyreke: 2.1
Stephen: 1.6
So what I’m seeing here is that while Curry is a much better shooter than Tyreke (hell, so are a lot of NBA guys), Tyreke finds his teammates more often, and turns the ball over less even though he’s handling the ball more. They’re also both great rebounders for the position they play.
Another argument I hear from Warriors fans is that Curry didn’t know his role at the beginning of the year. He has started 77 games and has ended up with 200+ minutes to Tyreke over this season. Since about 30-31 games were played before the New Year, I don’t know how you discount an entire half a year worth of statistics.
-Aykis16 of Sactown Royalty
by lrh86 on Apr 15, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
...
all good Freud.
No dig on Reke’s game man. That’s not what I’m saying.
’Reke’s a beast, period. You can’t stop the man on his drives and his ability to finish against anyone is pretty awe inspiring. I’ve dropped my jaw and shook my head a few times this year watching him play.
But if you take all aspects of the game in which one is to judge a player, Curry is in most of them…
Well, at least on the offensive end. Defensively, not so much.
Homer?
If being knowledgeable about the game, objective when evaluating a player’s ability, and telling it like it is and how it should be is considered being a “homer,” then ya, call me whatever you like.
Don’t hate cuz your boy ’Reke might lose out…
Actually
I don’t have a horse in this race. I happen to think that they are both great players but the arguments provided by the OP are complete homer views and are seriously slanted to favor Curry. As of right now I think Evans is the better player but bring this debate up in three years and I might have changed my mind. Only time will tell.
...
fine and dandy… I happen to think Curry is and will forever be the better player.
and speaking only for myself, my views aren’t slanted in anyway. i’ve watched most of the King & Warrior games this season to know what I’m talking about and to express objective views.
Another thing
You say he plays basketball the RIGHT way….
The Warriors play basketball every way BUT the right way. The playground/AND1 style that Don Nelson coaches is an abomination to the game of basketball.
So...
Playing fast, taking “good shots” when they’re available, no matter how early in the shot clock, exploiting match ups, etc.? That’s “an abomination?” If there’s something inherently wrong with it, go right ahead and explain it. Like everything, there are multiple ways to be successful in basketball. Each team has different talents, and of late the Warriors have had approximately zero half decent big men. Sorry if they have to use a strategy you don’t like to succeed the best they can.
Dude, it’s just fun and fun to watch.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Like everything, there are multiple ways to be successful in basketball.
No. There is only one right way to do everything.
I don't understand why Kings fans dislike Curry
He’s a hell of a player.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Kings fan here
and as I said above, I LOVE Curry. I just don’t like fallacious homer BS from the guy up top.
I think it's kind of the opposite
We’re not showing the same respect to Evans as they are to Curry. I’m saying that it’s wrong or right, but reading the posts on both sites, that’s what’s been happening.
I give pressure the reach-around.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Apr 15, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I think my man Steinmetz said it best
MSteinmetzCSN
Don’t care where you come down on Curry/Evans ROY debate. Just don’t act like your side right, other side wrong
Call me a fence sitter, I think both are good. :)
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm a fence sitter as well.
I like both. I don’t know for certain that Evans will be better, but I like the odds of him becoming better. That doesn’t mean Curry won’t be a terrific player either. It just means that I think Evans will be better than LeBron/Carmelo type of situation. (Note: I’m not comparing Evans/Curry to LeBron/Carmelo. Just using that to illustrate my point.)
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It’s very close in terms of what both did over their entire rookie seasons.
Since players tend to improve with age up until about 24, The couple of extra years Evans has probably makes him a better bet to reach true lofty heights in the future. Given that he was picked early in the draft, I don’t see why anyone would be surprised at this either.
by jae on Apr 15, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Before last year's draft I had a pool of 7 guys I thought would end up being the best player
Griffin, Evans, Rubio, Flynn, Curry, DeRozan and Jennings. It’s probably safe to say that 4 of the 5 best players in this drat will come out of that pool. That’s the history of the NBA draft. It’s funny to reflect back, but at the time I wanted Rubio or Flynn. I really wanted Jennings more, but I knew the Kings wouldn’t take him under any circumstance. I liked Curry’s skills, but I wondered how much upside he really had. Seeing his passing and shooting (not to mention IQ) is not surprising one bit.
As far as age, I think Curry’s age will help him maintain upon what he’s built. There are a lot of players with the upside you mention, but relatively few actually reach it. The beauty of time is that it will resolve these questions. Until the meantime, may the argument roundtable be ushered into conference room #1 for GSoM & StR…..
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I wouldn't. I'll take the risk on a guy like Evans every time.
But that’s me. And I fully expect Curry to be a player moving forward.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Defense is your friend...
…when it comes to winning championships. Offense is only half of the game.
Look
The 06/07 Warriors had the option of going with a “traditional” line up. But all of their bigs (Biedrins, Murphy, Diogu, O’Bryant) sucked royal donkey nuts with the exception of Biedrins who was passable. Point being, you can talk all you want about “defense” but when you don’t have the personnel to defend other teams’ bigs, you’re not gonna be able to be successfully if you focus on that.
Since then, things have gotten slightly better in that regard, until it reversed this year when our top 5 bigs all had serious injuries that kept them out for a large portion of the season.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Big guys are not the only players that need to play defense
If your wings and guards are constantly letting their man run wild down the lane your big guys are going to foul out quickly anyways.
The 06/07 Warriors had the option of going with a "traditional" line up. But all of their bigs (Biedrins, Murphy, Diogu, O’Bryant) sucked royal donkey nuts with the exception of Biedrins who was passable.
Foyle was better than Dre back then but Nellie didn’t have the coaching skil to integrate him into a meaningful role so Adonal sat and players got worn down and we lost to Utah.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I get...
…uncomfortable when people start throwing “abominaton” around. Pretty harsh reprisal. Comparing Nellie Ball to And-1 betrays a certain laziness I think people have in their assessments of Nelson. He’s coached bad defensive teams, but also average to above average ones. You could make the case that the core style of offense isn’t friendly to winning a title, and I’d probably agree, though moreso because of how tiring it is to keep running than anything about the so-called purity of the game. The OP’s comment about the “right way” to play isn’t something I’m a proponent of, but his comment about the right reasons is something else entirely.
“A shot created must be taken,” is one of Nelson’s philosophies I’ve heard him mention a number of times, and that’s one of the core principles of Nellie Ball. It doesn’t matter if you’re 5’10 or 7’2, if you find yourself in a matchup or position in which you’re favored to score the ball, you gotta do it. It has absolutely nothing to do with And-1 or playground ball, and to claim that betrays an utter lack of understanding or appreciation of Don Nelson’s philosophies. I’m not waging this as an insult, since I sure as hell don’t know much about Paul Westphal, but then again I’m not implying he’s hoisting an abomination upon the league. I’d daresay if you visit the nearest playground, they aren’t running anything nearly as sophisticated or calculated as Nellie Ball, to say nothing of the results. If Nelson’s coaching career indicates anything, it’s that good playerscan win with Nellie Ball, and bad players can’t (though at times, Nelson’s ability to devise matchup schemes have won him many games that the players on their own ought not to have).
It also bears mentioning that Curry is far more efficient than Evans, which sort of negates the notion that’s he’s some kind of free-wheeling, shot-chucking streetballer.
by Zack Vank on Apr 15, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
He’ll score and/or get to the line with regularity that I have not seen from a rookie before.
what about Lebron? or further back how about Wilt’s 37.6 PPG rookie average? these kids are good but they are not the greatest.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
He plays the way the game should be played, period, on any level. If you’re a basketball purist, you really can’t help but smile and gush when you watch Curry play
Depends on if you like softball or hardball? He plays a lot like the stanford girls team plays if that turns you on? I prefer a more powerful version of the game since I started watching the game when the players were all a lot older than me so I can’t relate well to kiddie ball.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
[Curry] plays a lot like the stanford girls team plays if that turns you on?
Haha. Oh, Skep…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Women’s basketball is general is an ugly sport to watch half the time.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Women’s basketball is general is an ugly sport to watch half the time.
I just watch the pretty half.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions
It's good to see that sexism and misogyny are alive and well!
Sigh.
And to duballers23, the Stanford-UConn game was awful for both teams. Stanford averaged over 70 points per game throughout the season. Seems like they were a pretty decent shooting team to pull that off.
I’m not being sexist. I watched Cal women’s basketball at times this season and watched them a lot last season since they were ranked very high throughout the season. In my opinion, it is generally an ugly sport to watch. The players aren’t athletic and the pace is very, very slow. Shot selection is poor.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 17, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you kidding? The Stanford girls can't shoot a lick.
I don’t know about that but they can really pass according to Bobby Knight.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahahahahahaha
This is funny as hell.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
roy
Who said players have to be a point guard to get rookie of the year??? In this article, you argued that Tyreke Evans is not a true point guard. AND? SO WHAT…. that is not even an issue so why even bring up… you make it sound like tyreke doesnt deserve rookie of the year because he is not a true pointguard… rediculous… AND his assists averages should have been a lot higher but his teamates cant shoot for nothing so he does not get credit a lot of times for his passes…and you said he ball hoggs.. if your team sucks and cant score then tyreke has to take it in his own hands and score to help his team…to me thats a leader not hogging the ball…. TYREKE ROY!!!!
Looks like someone
is furiously angry at the fact that Evans is the first ever to average 20+ ppg as a rookie
and fail to lead his team to 30 wins.
by Dubs hoops on Apr 15, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha.
I still think Evans will win, and more or less deserves to win; and I kinda hope he wins to give Curry a little added edge next season. But posts like this call to mind the GSoMer (can’t recall which one now) who pointed out single best reason to want Curry to win it:
To make Kings fans totally lose their sh*t
XD
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha, yeah! The guys at StR are quite pissed this piece was posted over there, and I imagine Curry stealing ROY honors would push them over the edge.
Yeah those damn guys at StR are so pissed off
That dang Curry will send ‘em right over the edge. No don’t do it Steph Curry! Don’t make the voters vote for an award! Don’t do it! StR folk will jump off the nearest cliff! Stop! Please!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Don’t do it! StR folk will jump off the nearest cliff!
There are no near cliffs over there.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes but there are hills that will do the job. Besides, it aint like the Coast is that far away.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
re:Tyreke sort of has some Maggette in him.
That would be some “bad porn”.
I give pressure the reach-around.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Apr 15, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Did anybody else catch the Portland announcers saying something like Curry gets to take a ton of shots so that's why he got the record, but Rudy Fernandez didn't have the same freedom to shoot? That is TOTAL BS.
Fernandez chucked up 398 3 pointers last year compared to Curry’s 380. Those Portland announcers are totally full of bs, putting out false information like that. They said stupid senseless crap like that the whole game.
Haha, I caught it. Their lame-brained “argument” was that
Somebody has to score points
With the strong implication that Curry was only scoring a lot ’cos he shot a ton — as if the only possible way to tell if a player was getting his points efficiently was with a divining rod.
Of course, by the end of the game, Steph (42 points on 25 fga) had taken the nonsense they were spewing and rammed it back down their stupid pie-holes…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 15, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
They always do
Mike Rice and Mike Barrett are the worst announcers in the NBA!
by stevencresnick on Apr 15, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Ramg529 took the words out my mouth
Since I’m European I’m going to compare one special soccer player(Leo Messi) and Curry and what they bring to me when I watch them play. Pure joy and love for both sports and I can’t stop smilling watching those two play.
LINKS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18hT6EiF1HU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5UksOpQL2E&feature=related
my god...
please. That Messi guy almost burned my eyes out. no offense, i never hated soccer more than the 8 seconds i watched that vid…
Well then it's not for you I guess those who truely understand the game will know what I'm talking about
and you can just spare your comments for yourself my god.
I promise this gets exciting within 6 seconds
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 15, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Compare SC to BJ
Looking back at all the hype Jennings got from his 55pt outing against the Dubs, I wanted to compare their stats from that game and from last night.
Jennings: 41 minutes 55pts, 5 boards, 5 assists, 0 blocks, 0 steals, 4 TO’s +11
Curry: 48 minutes 42pts, 9 boards, 8 assists, 1 block, 2 steals, 2 TO’s +6
Not to take anything away from BJ’s amazing performance, but scoring 42 while almost pulling off a triple double is not something that most shooters or point guards in the entire league could do. Maybe a young Jason Kidd, Jordan, LeBron, CP3, Nash or Williams etc. have the skillset and confidence to accomplish this. Words like amazing, unbelievable and Holy %$^$ describe this perfomance. Also I don’t see Evans pulling anything like this off either. Curry = ROY. At least I hope so.
http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=300414022
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=291114015
Curry/Monta/Turner/Morrow/Buike/Maggs/AR/Wright/Goose/Turiaf= Wins
by danielholl on Apr 15, 2010 4:33 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Curry also played 7 more minutes
And Jennings was scoreless after the first quarter.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
I don’t think anybody is disputing that Jennings’ scoring output was more significant than Curry’s. It’s highly unlikely that Jennings was going to grab four rebounds and dish out three assists in seven minutes especially with the way he was scoring the basketball.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Those dang Bucks taking advantage of the poor Warriors!
I mean, because no demoralizing injuries happen and no teams win in spite of them! Ever!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
How does that compare to Kelenna Azubuike being taken off the court on a stretcher?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
yep, portland is out of the playoffs in the stacked west because of attrition
devastating injuries, star players out for the season. Oh, wait……
no, they're in it because
they have nate mcmillan instead of a 72-year old don nelson and monta ellis
And have a potential championship roster when healthy.
But hey leaving little details out of important points seems to be a specialty of yours.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
IIRC
Dubs hoops is pretty good at that…
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 16, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
We're
dead last in rebounds per game. Our front line is Devean George and Anthony Tolliver, both 6-9.
Portland has a very skilled, established big in L. Aldridge and made a great trade for M. Camby. We didn’t. We don’t have that even when healthy.
We have a skinny 20 year-old Anthony Randolph, a skinny 21 year-old Brandan Wright, a skinny 22-year-old Andris Biedrins, and a potential 26-year old defensive anchor in Ronny Turiaf.
Our front line isn’t much, but I’m pretty sure those ‘little details’ seem to help in areas of, say…defense…rebounding…points in the paint/Opp. pts in the paint,
etc.
The Dubs were never a playoff team. The Blazers were.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Proof is in the pudding I suppose.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I know that.
My point is that the Blazers didn’t have the injury bug as bad as the Warriors. Their players missed a combined 300 something games I believe, while the Warriors players missed around a combined 500 or so games this year.
Am i supposed to believe that argument without any sort of proof backing it up?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
no proof here
To be fair, Portland didn’t have the injury bug nearly as bad as us, but it still should had crippled their playoff chances, but borderlining the playoff race, Portland decided to add an extra big man in Camby which kept their hopes alive.
We didn’t do anything drastic because we’re going nowhere anyways if we did, and that resulted in some decent D-leaguers.
who's YOUR favorite warrior bust?
I agree with what you say cabarkapa
I’m just saying what does missing games really mean in this context. I would be curious to see breakdowns of how many games players on each roster missed and etc etc.
All I want from this argument is context. Nothing more or less. GS was devastated by injuries. So was Portland. But without knowing all the players on both rosters who were missing (I know some from each), I’m left to wonder what’s the difference between a hollow argument and one with merit. With all due respect, I’m the only person who can decide that difference for myself.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
What an idiot...
If you’re unwilling to accept the fact that the Warriors missed more than 500 games due to injury, you must be in denial. spencer hawes out 13 games and the kings went 1-12. Wonder what kind of team they’d be if hawes was injured during training camp.
I asked for context and proof. If that makes me an idiot, I'll gladly plead guilty.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I don't live in the Bay Area. I don't even have cable for chrissakes. If I lived in Sac, which I don't, I wouldn't get CSN Bay Area necessarily.
Sorry, but that’s exactly my point duballers.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I ain't finding it. I dont care.
If you want to use that particular argument, then you need to support it. Right now, all I have is your word for it. I don’t care one way or the other about this argument. As I said, I’m making a point.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
It doesn't matter if you know whether it's right or not, I know it's a fact.
by duballers23 on Apr 15, 2010 10:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Yuh. Datz allll dat matterz! Yuh boiiii!
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Wonder what kind of team they’d be if hawes was injured during training camp.
Given his plus minus for the season, I’d say that it would have made the Kings a marginally better team.
I hate plus minus as a stat
I only like adjusted plus minus a lil better cuz it’s adjusted. But I’m not really fond of it either way.
This is just an aside. Not about Hawes in particular.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Games missed due to injury(503)
K.Azubuike(73)
R.Bell(58)
A.Biedrins(49)
S.Claxton(48)
S.Curry(2)
M.Ellis(18)
D.George(1)
C.Magette(11)
M.Moore(8)
A.Morrow(12)
V.Radmonavic(48)
R.Turiaf(39)
C.Watson(15)
B.Wright(82)
total=503.
I'll be back
I have to find the Portland roster and compare it.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
You forgot Anthony Randolph. Include him and it’s eight guys that missed at least 39 games with five guys missing at least 48 games. Portland can’t touch us in that regard.
The Ultimate Opportunist
by Rated-R Superstar on Apr 15, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions
My bad...
K.Azubuike(73)
R.Bell(58)
A.Biedrins(49)
S.Claxton(48)
S.Curry(2)
M.Ellis(18)
D.George(1)
C.Magette(11)
M.Moore(8)
A.Morrow(12)
V.Radmonavic(48)
R.Turiaf(39)
C.Watson(15)
A.Randolph(48)
B.Wright(82)
total=503.
Randolph should be on the list, though I’d subtract Claxton from if it’s a real attempt at showing what injuries did to the team. Yeah, technically he might count, but he was expected to never play when he was traded for.
The real issue is the number of games missed by Biedrins, Turiaf, Wright and Randolph. When you only get 2 games more than a half a season out of 1 of your top 4 bigs and find yourself starting Mikki Moore and on occasion Radmanovich at center, things have not gone well.
Alright
Strip Brandan Wright off that list. He wasn’t a major contributor and he was lost all year. That doesn’t really matter. Claxton too. Neither does Raja Bell because he was acquired because of an expiring contract. He was hurt when the Warriors acquired him. That’s 188 games right there. That’s 315 missed games for the Warriors that I consider reasonable.
Now for Portland, Mills is someone I’m going to throw off that list. (I’d throw Cunningham off, but he played 63 games and quite a few bunches of minutes.)
I’m going to leave Outlaw on the team because he, unlike Wright, had contributed to a rotation in previous years and would have before he was traded to LA.
Having said that, I think the differences is slight if not moot. Yes, the Warriors had more “total” games, but nothing to make me think that Portland suffered a great deal more than Golden State did or vice versa.
You’ll probably disagree.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Does that change the fact that...
The Warriors were forced to play with limited or the bare minimum amount of players all year?
No. Portland is a team that relies on guard&forward play on the defensive end. We rely on size and rebounding. It’s our lifeline. We got outrebounded virtually every game this year.
Does that change the fact that the Warriors were forced to play with limited or the bare minimum amount of players all year?
No. Why would I argue that Portland’s injuries really effect GS?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Take Nellie’s word with skepticism, but he had said that Wright was having a very good camp and was projecting him as the starter at PF. He wasn’t a major contributor, but he wasn’t a non-factor either when he played. He was an efficient interior scorer who could block some shots. He was lost all year, but the Warriors had planned on him being there and was lost late enough that they had no chance to replace him with an actual rotation big and instead went with their projected 5th big reject Mikki Moore.
LOL @ 5th big reject Mikki Moore
But I’ll remain skeptical about Wright. Not because I doubt his talent, but simply because it’s hard to argue about the potential of someone who hasn’t contributed in the past. Especially when he hasn’t been healthy in past years either.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Saying he hadn’t contributed in the past isn’t quite accurate either. Prior to getting hurt, he was a regular part of the Warriors rotation. He wasn’t averaging huge minutes, but as a starter, he was getting about 20mpg, which is right around the average for all NBA players. Not all all the contribution that we’d hoped for when he was traded for, but the minutes he played weren’t worthless or insignificant. No, he hadn’t been healthy for a full season in the past. That doesn’t mean you expect to write him off for a full 82 or expect that missing him and having to play Moore or Radman or a D-league big instead is somehow a push versus having him available at all at any point.
Not sure I agree with Brandon Wright
He has been Broken Wing basically the entire time we’ve had him, but Nellie was projecting him as the starter PF in training camp. Either way, Randolph and Wright were supposed to hold down the 4 spot. Since both went down, you get Maggette at the 4. /shudders.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
What I don't get
Is why when the shoulder was hurt originally why Wright didn’t go under the knife?
by stevencresnick on Apr 15, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank You.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Words like amazing, unbelievable and Holy %$^$ describe this perfomance.
or words like meaningless game, opponent resting, porous defense, and Dubs shots falling ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Curry?
He will be a perennial all-star, but some stats are not fair. it’s easy to play lazy D(all warriors) and then take any shot you want, get 100000 possessions a game. Jennings plays the least amount of minutes, he is playing in a skiles defense oriented scheme. He is in Skiles’ offensive scheme that targets guys coming off screens (Jennings is at point, he doesn’t come off these too often) and stats are impressive. But which rookie is in the playoffs as a big time contributor? Jennings. IMO without Jennings the bucks don’t make the playoffs, they would of been so bad they wouldn’t of traded for Salmons. With or without Curry/Evans the GSW/Kings still suck
Kirby Moore for Heisman
What the hell?
Curry plays lazy D? He really tries. He isnt a big freakin tank to be able to shut everyone off. He’s a wirey 6-3 185. But he tries. And no, you don’t get 1000000 possesions a game. you get a 100. and curry uses 20. jennings uses 26.4 on average.
Look if I had a vote, I’d pick Jennings as ROY. Really. But you can’t downplay what Curry has done just because he isn’t in the playoffs…
Im not downplaying curry
“he will be a perennial all-star” I guess i should go easy on the kid. Curry may be the only one trying. Shots are still taken on the Warriors way too quickly. Curry is a mix of Jkidd and a Jason Terry type. Triple double threat, scoring machine. I’m just saying Jennings is more important to his team then Curry.
Kirby Moore for Heisman
Ouch
Yeah, Terry is kind of what they though he’d be. Which is why he was the 7th pick. Then they watched him play. I’d say Jkidd-Nash with a scoring mentality.
Basically he is a triple-double threat, nash-type scoring machine.
Except that Curry plays defense
So he’s more like Kidd in that sense as well.
by stevencresnick on Apr 15, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Except that Curry plays defense
well he puts out a lot of effort scrambling around annoying folks but he’ll get tired of that pretty soon, something has to give to keep up the energy for a whole game and a whole season once the other team start keying on him. He’ll eventually have to focus on playmaking like Nash or scoring like Iverson or defense like a Bowen or try to be pretty good at all like a smaller version of JKidd?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Good enough for me
Huge fan of his when he was at Davidson. I think he is more assertive than Nash. Nash, although a top 10 pg all-time, seems to dribble to often, pick his slots(it does work though) as I see Curry in the lane making moves and making shots for himself. Nash is a pick and pop shooter in half-court. Curry is an a.i. like “let me size you up, make a move and score”
Kirby Moore for Heisman
Evans finished the season
10 points, 3 assists, a round, and he was ejected. Curry ended the season with 42 points, 9 rebounds, and 8 assists.
Dejuan Blair ended the season with 27 and 23
By your logic he should be RoY.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
By your logic he should be RoY.
He should be co ROY just based on his allstar rookie/soph game performance.and factor in his handicap of no shins and he might earn top billing?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Sigh
Were you watching the game, by any chance? His first technical came from saying “And one!” to a ref after he was fouled (he had also been CLEARLY fouled only a few plays earlier and it again was not called). The second one game instantly after he probably said something like “BS” while WALKING AWAY. He didn’t deserve one T, let alone two. It was absurd. And as if one single game means anything.
GSW ended season with 1 more win too
Curry more valueable to team as increased playing minutes and last 2 months of season was Amare Stoudamiresque!
Curry more valueable to team as increased playing minutes and last 2 months of season was Amare Stoudamiresque!
and would we have made the playoffs if they’d kept Jax and traded Stef for Amare?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 15, 2010 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions
The real question - is Monta trade bait now more than ever?
Shoulda took that deal for Thabeet and Mayo!
Well, I must say
As a strident Kings fan, whose watched about 90% of their games this year, I was all for Evans winning the Rookie of the Year. I didn’t think anything could change my mind. But your guys superb analysis has convinced me.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
You know, sarcasm doesn't translate very well into text. People just might actually believe you.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Sarcasm?
Saying that was sarcasm would be like saying the argument for Curry as RoY is idiotic. Which it obviously isn’t as evidenced by this wonderfully informative thread. And to think I was so wrong for most of this year.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Clearly Curry's awesomeness has shown you the light
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 15, 2010 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Especially after that showing against Portland last night
How can you not be Rookie of the Year after that performance?
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Yuk yuk.
This coming from a Kings fan who considers PER an “advanced metric.”
Did you have an actual argument, or did you just come over to impress us with your wry wit?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 5:31 AM PDT up reply actions
You can read my argument over at StR if you want.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
The one that was linked here? I skimmed it … seemed fair enough. What I don’t get is why you seem to be implying that the overall level of analysis here is so much lower than it is there. (If that wasn’t your implication, I apologize). From what I can tell in my brief visits over there, the level of analysis is pretty comparable to what it is here — if anything, slightly lower, in keeping with the fact that people in the Bay Area are generally more sophisticated and better-educated than people in Sacramento. Plus … we have jae and you don’t. ;o)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is the worst post ive read
since when do you have to be a point guard to become the ROY?
next, stephen curry plays no defense what so ever at all.
And with the offense that Golden State runs, any athletic point or shooting guard would thrive.
plus, lets compare Tyreke’s Stats the first three and a half months of the seasons to curry’s. Not even close, compare them after the all star break and the stats are identical. Since when does the first half of the season not count for post season awards. AND
20-5-5, only the fourth rookie to do that, and one of only THREE players this year to do it. All this post was, was a homer , trying to provide hope for a guy who may be a suprstar some day, but isnt the ROY.
Kobe bryant said it best "steph curry is a phenomal player, but tyreke? well tyreke is a GROWN MAN
Ok, so the fanpost oozes with more homer than the Illiad.
But ain’t it just grand replying to homerism with more homerism?
I think we can all say both Tyreke and Steph, while two totally different players, had excellent rookie seasons and have bright futures. However, neither player is quite the second coming just yet, as both have areas that could stand improving.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 16, 2010 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Drew
There’s only one thing I have to say.
You’re being WAYYY to biased, buddy.
Oh and, Kobe said in the same interview ‘I might be biased because I’m from philidelphia.’
AND 20-5-5, only the fourth rookie to do that, and one of only THREE players this year to do it.
And that’s impressive. Is it more impressive than being one of three players this year and only the 4th rookie (assuming the Big O got it too, but they didn’t record steals at the time) to average a line like Curry’s? No, it isn’t. It’s elite company in both cases.
For the season (not for the last couple of months, but for all 82) they put up very similarly impressive totals.
Evans is not a point guard
It seems that a lot of people here don’t get my point about Tyreke Evans not being a point guard. It’s simply this: a productive 2-guard, which is what he is, is far less valuable than a productive point guard.
Think about it this way (fantasy baseball players should get this immediately): If you have an outfielder that hits 20 homeruns, what do you have? Not much. But if you have a shortstop that hits 20 homeruns, then you have the makings of a dominant team.
Similarly in the NBA, if you have a 20 point scorer at off-guard, what do you have? Nothing special. But if you have a true point guard that averages 20 points as well, your team is going to be very, very difficult to beat.
Its about MARGINAL production.
by Feltbot on Apr 16, 2010 9:07 AM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Exactly
Feltbot, let it speak for itself. For this reason the Warriors are going to be better than the Kings, when healthy.
yes & no
a team needs a decent point to be effective but check how many rings derek fisher has – he’s not a star by any means he’s just solid.
a 20 pt scoring 2 guard is not special. but a 20+ pt 2 guard that dishes out 5+ assists & gets 5+ boards and is a go to guy with the game on the line – that is special.
for all the wonderfulness about Curry’s passing game, making guys better, seeing the floor, etc. he ended up with 5.9 to tyreke’s 5.8. all those superlatives don’t mean much if your incredible floor general only puts up .1 more assists a game than a selfish, me first, i want stats more than wins, run-of-the-mill 2 guard.
in the second half
of the season- when you finally stopped being an off-guard to monta ellis, stopped catch-and-shooting, ellis went down an you started to run the point? please.
and how did that selfish 2 guard do?
tyreke 6.9 asts per game since january vs curry’s 7.5. wow – floor general.
And the other thing...
Evans is a go-to-guy in the clutch and Curry isn’t?
Yeah MJ is a go-to-guy in the clutch an Kobe isn’t. Sure.
we already went down this path
look up – evan’s game winners are posted above. haven’t seen any of curry’s yet.
Really?
So if you don’t hit a gamewinner, you’re not clutch?
Even if you hit clutch shots to take the game out of reach for the other team?
Yeah…
guess i have a different standard.
i wouldn’t call a guy clutch until he’s been put in a situation and proves himself repeatedly.
for the record – i’m not calling evans clutch- yet. I just pointed out he’s got 2 game winning shots already and had a game winning steal in his rookie year. 3 games the kings won with him making the final play.
there’s a whole lot of guys that may be clutch that haven’t had the opportunity to prove it. even more is the number of guys that think they are clutch and they aren’t (see kevin martin)
not curry’s fault if he hasn’t been put in that situation to prove it yet – but i’m also not going to give him credit for being clutch until he does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNdckzv6VRo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU5gfBg1fpY
the first one is kind of flukish, but the last game of the year, he got a grip of clutch situations and being able to take over in the clutch.
The difference between “clutch” and “stochastic variance” is rarely if ever identifiable. Don’t be surprised if your small sample size of someone being clutch shows absolutely no predictive value in explaining how someone will do in future situations.
i got an A in stats at college too.
lol.
see the link to the 82 games measure. based on this year’s data – evans ranked 13th vs curry’s 46th in their clutch statistics.
i made a point of not calling him clutch. i just said he’d made some shots.
If you have an outfielder that hits 20 homeruns, what do you have? Not much. But if you have a shortstop that hits 20 homeruns, then you have the makings of a dominant team.
You didn’t give enough information from which to draw this conclusion.
But if you have a true point guard that averages 20 points as well, your team is going to be very, very difficult to beat.
This doesn’t really follow logically, either, especially without a real working definition of “true point guard.”
I mean, I get your basic point. I think I agree that, anecdotally, Curry appears to have the court vision, passing skills, and hoops IQ to get to a “true PG”-ish 8-9 assists per game — something I wouldn’t really say while observing Evans’ game. At the same time, until Curry goes out and puts up those numbers — while keeping his turnovers from skyrocketing — your case is a tough one to make. Based on the numbers they’ve produced so far, their assist and turnover rates are roughly equal. And for the purposes of this discussion, the numbers they’ve produced so far are all that matters. We’re talking ROY, talking about PPGOY (“potential point guard of the year.”)
On a related note, I’m curious how Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Wade and LeBron fit into your “true point guard” theory.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions
The point he’s trying to make is that you need a big PG on any dominant team. I can’t remember a playoff team that didn’t have an excellent PG or very good role-playing PG.
Remember Kobe’s Lakers when their PG was Smush Parker?
Remember how Larry legend wasn’t such a ‘legend’ until Dennis Johnson?
How great was Wade with Chalmers?
How incredible was Lebron with that team that had Eric Snow?
The point is, you NEED a great PG to be successful.
The Lakers, of course, are the exception, because they run the traingle, and Kobe is really the offensive coordinator.
The Cavaliers have Mo Williams& West, and have a big backcourt issue in my opinion. While they are good shooters, it really hurts when your SF is the only one running the pick and roll.
Remember Kobe’s Lakers when their PG was Smush Parker?
Yeah … and I also remember when their PG was Derek Fisher, who was /is not “excellent” by any stretch of the imagination. He might have been “very good role-playing,” but that term can probably be applied to half the PGs in the league.
Remember how Larry legend wasn’t such a ‘legend’ until Dennis Johnson?
Haha. I remember him being pretty decent in college. And I remember his teams winning 60 games a year the four years before DJ arrived, including the NBA championship in 1980-81 with an aging Tiny Archibald and Gerald Henderson at PG. And I remember him being all-NBA first team all four of those years. And I remember DJ managing 4.2 assists per game the year he arrived, to Bird’s 6.6.
How great was Wade with Chalmers?
How incredible was Lebron with that team that had Eric Snow?
Both players have always been great and incredible, respectively.
The point is, you NEED a great PG to be successful.
This is false. The real point is, you’re completely talking out of your [hat], once again. You’re totally embarrassing yourself, which is OK, but you’re also helping to make this whole site the object of SBN ridicule, which is sort of less OK. But whatever, carry on with the nonsense, if you insist. We have enough heavy-hitters here to handle the trolls you invite over here with your nutty claims.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
you’re also helping to make this whole site the object of SBN ridicule, which is sort of less OK.
What is SBN and why is it ridiculing us? and why do we care??
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you saying Zombie Fisher is a strong and/or role-playing PG?
How many rings do Steven Nash and John Stockton have again?
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 16, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions
Just to clarify
You could have an awesome point guard, but still not get to the ultimate prize, hence the reference to Nash and Stockton. A dominant team needs good, if not great, players in general. A good PG is not the ultimate recipe for success.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 16, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions
You could have an awesome point guard, but still not get to the ultimate prize
Then that might mean this is a team sport ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Then that might mean this is a team sport ?
A bit of a hard idea to grasp I admit.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 16, 2010 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I read this thread because I was interested in what type of argument could be put together for this. Honestly, I stopped reading your “article” after you stated that Evans is a poor defender.
You’re either misinformed or a complete moron. Evan’s is a fantastic defender, probably top five in his position in the NBA. In fact the largest difference between the rookie of the year vote gap will be because Evan’s is such a superior defender. Do some research before you post disillusioned rhetoric. The vote will not even be close, and if there are any first place votes for Curry at all they will be from biased local media.
Do not get me wrong. Curry is a fantastic guard. He has great range, shoots a high percentage all over the court and handles the ball well. Before you accuse Tyreke of not being able to run an offense do some diligence and look over a stat sheet though. Both players played similar MPG and were separated by a tenth of a point in APG, Evans scored more PPG and rebounds the ball consistently more. Evans a MUCH better defender, and had to carry his team on his back for months without a second scoring option in the early months of the season when Kevin Martin was injured before being traded. Being a fan is great, ignorance in the shadow of that is stupidity.
Evan’s [sic] is a fantastic defender, probably top five in his position in the NBA.
the largest difference between the rookie of the year vote gap will be because Evan’s is such a superior defender.
Evans a MUCH better defender,
Do you have any evidence to support this? I mean I know defensive metrics are notoriously sketchy, but simply asserting something repeatedly and calling people who don’t agree with you “morons” tends not be a very persuasive way to make a case. Especially when the case is being made for a player on your favorite team (I’m guessing). As you say:
Being a fan is great, ignorance in the shadow of that is stupidity.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
In fact the largest difference between the rookie of the year vote gap will be because Evan’s is such a superior defender.
Given that this factor seems to have dreadfully little impact in voting for all-star births, MVP awards, and on player salaries, it seems strange that you would think it to suddenly be decisive in ROY voting. Given Durant’s award two years ago when he couldn’t stop a Jr. high team and was rather undeserving of the award, I’d suggest that there is zero reason to believe that defensive ability will have more than the tiniest iota of influence now.
Evans scored more PPG and rebounds the ball consistently more
His scoring came on more FG attempts and at a much lower efficiency. The difference in efficiency was rather significant, making the extra points less than influential in improving his team. Evans’ advantage rebounding per minute played was a touch over a half a rebound per 36 minutes. Curry’s advantage with assists was a little less than a half an assist per 36. Very close in both cases, rather different than what you imply in your prose.
Evans a MUCH better defender, and had to carry his team on his back for months
Carrying a team on your back to the 3rd worst record doesn’t sound like something you want to brag about. I don’t fault him for the Kings’ record, but it’s curious to tout “putting the team on his back” unless this results in an actual good result.
Being a fan is great, ignorance in the shadow of that is stupidity.
Invest in a mirror.
by jae on Apr 16, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Carrying a team on your back to the 3rd worst record doesn’t sound like something you want to brag about. I don’t fault him for the Kings’ record, but it’s curious to tout "putting the team on his back" unless this results in an actual good result.
Yes but this should be put in context. The Kings won 8 more games with a younger roster this season compared to last.
Additionally, the 3rd worst record is only a game better than the Dubs & Wiz, who tied for the 4th worst record, Philly & Detroit with 27 wins apiece, and the Clipps/Knicks at 29 wins holding down the 8th & 9th spots respectively. None of those rosters got better AND younger.
I’ll say it was disappointing to see the Kings end up with the 3rd worst record, but given that the Kings improved and there is other teams right there with the Kings suggests that the 3rd worst record is more of how the season just ended up shaking out. I don’t know if that means the Kings were the 3rd worst team. I don’t know if the Dubs are the 4th/5th worst team either.
On the other hand, without Evans, it’s hard to imagine the Kings not being in the same position (or worse) than the Wolves right now. That is a fact that nobody should be ready to dispute.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The vote will not even be close, and if there are any first place votes for Curry at all they will be from biased local media.
you think Charlotte will go red state?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Bill Simmons is apparently with Team Curry
Personally, I’d give the award to Reggie Williams though.
ReggieWTF FTW!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Hell yes
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Apr 16, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Personally, I’d give the award to Reggie Williams though.
My fav is Pegleg Hunter.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
$56M Cap
Can’t remember where I saw it posted in this novel but someone was making reference to the Warriors will be better than the Kings next year. That will be a very interesting race I think.
Cap will be $56M. if Hoopshype is correct Ws are sitting at $53M already for next year whereas the Kings are at $33M on the books. There’s been talk of the Kings not spending a lot because of uncertainty of 2011 and beyond but I’d be very surprised if they don’t go after 1 big man and 1 back up pg – depending on which of those they draft.
With potentially a higher pick & the extra $$ – I think the Kings are in a better position next year than the Ws.
Anyone?
Anyone?
Well, Our talent might be too diluted throughout the positions to be real challengers for the top spot so if Sacto does get the gift of a new supastah they are likely to go further than our present squad. However if we trade some of our assets and consolidate the talent into key players who knows?
Anyone??
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2010 4:30 PM PDT reply actions
Given that this factor seems to have dreadfully little impact in voting for all-star births, MVP awards, and on player salaries, it seems strange that you would think it to suddenly be decisive in ROY voting. Given Durant’s award two years ago when he couldn’t stop a Jr. high team and was rather undeserving of the award, I’d suggest that there is zero reason to believe that defensive ability will have more than the tiniest iota of influence now.
The argument was not started by me and was rather made in the above article, and the entire reason I posted. Did you read it?
Evans being a better defender in question? This is alien? You haven’t heard this before? Do you own a television? Are you on an intranet that keeps you within this website? Have you read player evaluations on NBA.com/ESPN.com? Do they deliver newspapers on your planet?
When I make the assertion that he (Evans) was carrying his team after reading an article about Curry carrying his team at times, the argument best made is not to belittle the record of a player who’s team had 1 more loss than the player you’re in support of. Bad form sir. The direction I had in pointing this out was not to boast. Curry had better spots to score in the offense he was playing in, and did not have to carry the load of the teams scoring. He still scored alot because he is a gifted player. He is in a whole different galaxy than Tyreke at this point 10 feet away from the basket. With better shooters on his team, spacing is better and I watched alot of Golden State basketball. Curry never one time… not ONCE regardless of his scoring highly in streaks demanded the entire focus of a teams defense. Teams were stacking the paint and triple teaming Tyreke in order to slow him, and rarely had success. Ask Greg Popovich what he thinks. Send a twitter message to Kobe and check his head. Both have said their pieces on the two and I would absolutely consider the sources before disputing their savvy on the matter.
I made no argument in regards to scoring efficiency. Scoring efficiency from the guard position is a stat for spot shooters. A post player with a high field goal percentage is absolutely important so long as that person is scoring the bulk of your points. Volume scorers in a back court typically jack up alot of shots when they’re successful. Evans does not have an outside game yet. I complemented Curry’s.
Scoring efficiency I will argue has little to do with your value on a team from a small position unless you’re speaking situation-ally. Would you make the argument that Kevin Martin was better for the Kings future success than Evans? Martin is among the top very few in scoring efficiency and higher than both of the players within the scope of this discussion. Kobe Bryant and other volume scoring stars very often take 25 shots to score 30 points.
You’re missing my point. Curry will be a very good player for a long long time. Maybe the key to a ring. He had a very good rookie season. A few things though…
1. You cannot ignore the first two months of the season just because Curry did not have the opportunity to display his ability. The award is Rookie of the year, not rookie of a little more than half of the year.
2. If Monte Ellis had been healthy all year would we be having this discussion? Someone could make an argument.
3. Start of this post. I cannot believe you’re serious.
4. Can you put a value on making shots when they matter? Let’s stack the last 10 seconds of the seasons games in a highlight tape and see who’s video is longer.
5. Game by game. Lets throw out the first two months and line the stats from each player next to each other game in, game out. Who was more consistent? Evans will give you 20 points a game every night for the most part. There were alot of times Steph would score 10-15 points, and at that same rate times he’d go off for 30 plus. That also has something to do with the offensive scheming done by Don Nelson and his staff. Good shooters flourish under him as they should. Im sure Curry could score 30 points within anyone’s offense, but it’s easier within the Warriors.
Curry is going to star on a good team because he has supreme amount of talent. Tyreke will lead his team while starring because he has that thing you can’t define within him. Everyone outside of your bubble has seen it, cant believe you haven’t or are in denial about it.
Regardless good fans for their teams will blindly make arguments in support of their favorite players. Perhaps I’m doing the same. I’ll agree to disagree, but agree that you love your team as much as I do mine. I will however not concede that you’re from outer space if you infer that Evans is a poor defender. That is just silly and the focus of my attention to this blog.
fans for their teams will blindly make arguments in support of their favorite players. Perhaps I’m doing the same.
Yup.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 17, 2010 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions
As a Kings fan, I notice several things in this article
Most have been said already, so I’ll just say this. You can make a solid argument for Curry being ROY, yet you choose to mix those valid arguments with completely inaccurate/biased “arguments” against Evans. Why not try making a post in which you can see the arguments supporting both your choice as well as the other choices? Any non-biased person would say that while Evans and Curry have both been fantastic this season, Evans has been the stronger player from start to finish.
The Kings really didn’t have that healthy of a season, either. I’m not comparing it to the Warriors because clearly it isn’t nearly that bad, but we were without Kevin Martin for a long time, in which Tyreke became the star. We didn’t have Francisco Garcia for much of the season. Hawes and Brockman were both out for a while, and Tyreke had to sit out several games near the end of the season due to a concussion. Again, I’m not trying to compare to the Warriors’ injuries, as they have obviously been more extensive. But to act like the Kings had practically no injuries is inaccurate.
Like I said above, you can, and did, make a solid argument for Curry as ROY. It’s just a shame you chose to write absurdly biased things about Jennings and Evans to try and make your case stronger. I don’t see how Evans won’t get ROY, but he and Curry will both be outstanding players for years to come, and I look forward to watching both of them play and help their teams.
by Christina_J on Apr 16, 2010 8:35 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Any non-biased person would say that while Evans and Curry have both been fantastic this season, Evans has been the stronger player from start to finish.
That’s a subjective statement wrapped in a false assertion that disagreement must imply a bias. Statistically, when all was said and done, it was essentially a dead heat. Whatever edge Evans had at the beginning of the year was matched by whatever edge Curry had for the rest of the year such that added up, it was very, very close in total.
I stand by what I said
From the first game to the last game, Evans was a more consistently strong player. Disagreement and bias are not the same thing, but I can’t imagine how an unbiased person could say Curry played better than Evans in October, November and December. He simply didn’t. It wasn’t a difference of .2 points or something equally insignificant.
And yes, total numbers certainly matter, but so does the season from start to finish. Curry took a while to find his place in the NBA, and Evans didn’t.
And yes, total numbers certainly matter, but so does the season from start to finish.
These are the same thing. If anything, in awards of this nature, more weight tends to be given to how a player finished a season than how he started. If you acknowledge that their total numbers were close to even (a fact borne out by the numbers), and you acknowledge that Evans had a stronger start (which as you say, no unbiased person would deny), then you have to acknowledge that Curry had a stronger finish — stronger by the same margin that Evans was stronger to start.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 17, 2010 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Tyreke Evans=Rookie of the Year, No Contest At All
Tyreke Evans is the clear Rookie of the Year, without a doubt.
Remember, the award is called Rookie of the Year, not Rookie of the last three months.
Now, to be fair, Curry has played very well in the last three months. He should be a great NBA star. However, he is no where near as good as Tyreke Evans. Many say that because Tyreke plays on a better team, he has the advantage. That is actually not true at all, if not completely false.
Because Curry plays on a team full of D-Leaguers, everything is up to Curry. They want him to score. They want him to rebound. They want him to run the team and do everything, thus upping his stats too easily. Why? Because his teammates cannot score, rebound, pass, or do anything! Only Ellis compares, and even then he is way too much of a ball hog.
Tyreke, on the other hand, carves up defenses of the likes of the Lakers, the Cavaliers, the Nuggets, the Spurs, the Mavericks, the Celtics, and everyone else. He got his 20-5-5 (by the way, did you know only MJ, LeBron, and Oscar Robertson got that as rookies?) with his team averaging only 100 points! Curry, on the other hand, gets his overrated statistics by playing on a team that plays no defense and gets 108 points per game. Curry makes most of those points because his teammates cannot; Tyreke, on the other hand, passes because his teammates can score. He would actually have much more assists, but his teammates often miss open shots.
That’s another thing: Defense. Curry has none, and Evans can stop Chauncey Billups, Kobe Bryant (as well as anyone can), Brandon Roy, etc. Curry, on the other hand, has no defense. Did I mention he doesn’t play defense?
The above article is a joke; no other reason for Tyreke, huh? What a joke. Two of them are just statistics! Here are quite a few for Tyreke that this guy apparently “never heard of,” which means he is not a real NBA fan at all.
1. Tyreke averaged 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists a game (which only MJ, LeBron, and Oscar Robertson did as rookies)
2. Tyreke is a clutch player, getting multiple game winning shots and last minute shots
3. Tyreke has been compared by many experts as a mini-LeBron, minus the extraordinary and unhuman-like athletic ability
4. Evans will be the best player from the rookie class; he averages 20 points by only driving to the lane! When he gets a jumpshot, who will stop him? No one.
5. Evans is a great defender; he shuts down almost anyone.
And that’s just getting started. If you really want to talk ROY, pay attention to the NBA. Almost all experts have Tyreke Evans winning the NBA Rookie of the Year Award, considering he’s been consistent from day one. Is Curry bad? No, he will be a phenomenal player. However, Evans is undeniably better, and will win the Rookie of the Year Award.
I’m pretty sure this is a joke post (is that you. BSD?), but just in case:
1. Tyreke averaged 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists a game (which only MJ, LeBron, and Oscar Robertson did as rookies)
And Curry averaged 17.5 / 4.5 / 5.9 / 1.9 / .565 TS%, which only Jordan and Magic did as rookies. Come clean, now: have you even glanced at the rest of this thread?
2. Tyreke is a clutch player
Best to assume this is your imagination, until demonstrated otherwise.
3. Tyreke has been compared by many experts as a mini-LeBron, minus the extraordinary and unhuman-like athletic ability
Harold Miner: “Baby Jordan.”
4a. Evans will be the best player from the rookie class;
Haha, the best argument of all: Evans is the best rookie … because Evans is the best rookie!
4b. he averages 20 points by only driving to the lane! When he gets a jumpshot, who will stop him? No one.
As many others here have mentioned (including many Kings fans who appear to be much more insightful than you), we’re talking about rookie of the year here, not “rookie with the most potential to be unstoppable.” But as long as we’re playing the “what if” game: Curry shoots .565 TS and only gets to the line twice a game! When he gets himself to the line 10 times a game (and drains 9 of them), who will stop him?
5. Evans is a great defender; he shuts down almost anyone.
Best to assume this is your imagination, until demonstrated otherwise.
Almost all experts have Tyreke Evans winning the NBA Rookie of the Year Award,
Perhaps it might help your case if you cited even one? For the record, here’s Bill Simmons, one of the best-known and most-cited national hoops analysts, who has the distinct advantage of not being a Kings or Warriors fan:
I think Curry was the 2009-10 Rookie of the Year.
Look, I wanted to pick Brandon Jennings because he started for a playoff team, but you can’t miss 65 percent of your shots for the last four months of the regular season and be my rookie of the year. Sorry. That leaves two guards (Curry and Evans) who put up gaudy stats on terrible teams. I just thought Curry had a higher degree of difficulty: crazy coaching situation, crazy ownership/front-office situation, super-crazy roster. He played with Ellis and Corey Maggette (two of the ultimate me-first guys), and a rotating cast of promoted D-Leaguers and bench guys. He didn’t have a decent low-post player or rebounder; you knew things were bad when someone said the words, “We really miss Ronny Turiaf right now.” And yet, he got better every month (check out his splits), and became the first rookie ever to average 17 points and two 3s per game and top 85 percent free throw shooting and 40 percent 3-point shooting (nobody even came close before).
Evans made history as well, joining the 20-5-5 Rookie Club along with MJ, Oscar Robertson and LeBron. Pretty good company. But he had better teammates, and if you want to get technical, I never watched a Warriors game without thinking, “Curry would be fun to play with” at least once. I can’t say the same about Evans. Curry gets my vote.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Reke is already better than Harold Miner ever was. (So is Curry for that matter.)
Best to assume this is your imagination, until demonstrated otherwise.
And your imagination for printing a lie. He is very clutch, and one of the most clutch players to ever play in a Kings uni. I don’t care if you believe me. I’m not going to convince you of anything you don’t already believe. I’m just saying that your statement is flat out incorrect and wrong.
As many others here have mentioned (including many Kings fans who appear to be much more insightful than you), we’re talking about rookie of the year here, not "rookie with the most potential to be unstoppable." But as long as we’re playing the "what if" game: Curry shoots .565 TS and only gets to the line twice a game! When he gets himself to the line 10 times a game (and drains 9 of them), who will stop him?
Curry won’t ever get to the line 10 times a game. He’s not that type of player. If Curry ever draws fouls like he did the last season at Davidson, he’ll be extremely lucky. I’m not saying it’s impossible; just not very likely.
Curry is not a guy who gets to the line as much because he is a perimeter player. He doesn’t drive to the cup like Tyreke Evans does. One of the drawbacks of Evans going to the cup so much is he’ll put up in an ill-advised shot every now & again. One of the upsides is that he gets to the line a lot. To the tune of 6 1/2 times a game.
Let’s say Steph Curry ends up in the Steve Nash realm. The most Nash has ever gotten to the line is 4.5 times a game. If Curry ever draws that many I wont’ be shocked, but impressed.
Almost all experts have Tyreke Evans winning the NBA Rookie of the Year Award,
Perhaps it might help your case if you cited even one? For the record, here’s Bill Simmons, one of the best-known and most-cited national hoops analysts, who has the distinct advantage of not being a Kings or Warriors fan:
I don’t even know where to begin with Simmons. That guy has a bias against Sacramento that i’ve never understood. (I think he resents the Kings moving from KC to Sac. Not sure why, but he does.) Either way, I’m not surprised given the recent circumstances that Simmons supported Curry for ROTY. I don’t even care that he does. To me, he’s just one “expert” out there. If you want to call him that. Calling him a Boston mouth is more appropriate IMO, but that’s me.
So what about Henry Abbott, JA Adande, John Hollinger, David Thorpe and Kevin Arnovitz? Are they not “experts” in the same mold as Simmons?
I do agree with everything else Sleepy. Just disagree heavily on the Harold Minor (that’s low IMO) point, and the non-clutch argument. And the Simmons point is it’s own animal.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
You can tell Simmons hates Sacremento
by the fact he always brings up the refs robbing Sac-town in 2002. Or how he’s been singing Tyreke’s praises all season. In all honesty, I read basically every Simmons column and haven’t really noticed any Sac hate. Maybe it’s in the podcasts but I really can’t stand his voice for long enough to listen to those.
by ReggieFan2010 on Apr 17, 2010 4:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes you can
Maybe you don’t, but I can. It’s just dumb little jabs he has taken at the Kings and the city over the years. It’s not one particular line or whatever. I’m not particularly sensitive towards it; I understand many of the criticisms of the place. I love Sac, but there are downsides to living there. Just like anywhere.
I don’t care if he praises Tyreke Evans or not to be truthful. I don’t care if he thinks Curry should win ROTY. That’s his right. I’m as convinced that Tyreke Evans is the future of the Kings as Warrior fans are convinced that Curry is the future.
Truthfully, I think Simmons threw Curry a bone cuz Evans will win the vote by a rather large margin. Whether that’s the only reason, or just because he doesn’t like Evans and felt the need to knock him down a peg, I don’t know. Again, I don’t care. I’ll be happy when the vote is over and I can simply write that Evans is ROTY. Not because I need it, but because I’m tired of the endless pointless debate.
And the point that Simmons is an expert? He knows plenty yes, but he also flip flops on things. His Deron Williams/Chris Paul point is a perfect example. He acted like Williams probably would have had a Jonny Flynn rookie season compared to Paul when Paul was playing out of this world. There is no doubt that Paul is a special player, but Simmons has something invested in seeing Deron Williams flop some because he didn’t originally project Williams to do well in the NBA. It’s little crap like that that annoys me about Simmons. He has his biases like everyone else. And, I’m supposed to care about them? That’s why I stopped reading and caring about his opinion years ago. I rarely read him. And it’s only his NBA stuff that I read. I don’t care about the NFL or whatever Red Sox crisis is going on today.
Not only that, he argues with himself. His trade value column is an example of that. Part 1 & Part 2 show exactly why he talked about Curry as ROTY. He knows that Curry is a hell of a player, and he knows that Evans is. Reading his draft diary on 2009 makes me believe he has something at stake in not saying he thinks Evans is ROTY.
Again, I don’t hate Bill Simmons one way or the other. He’s entertaining and funny. But I take him no more or less than that. I do think he has bias against Sac for a reason or two that he doesn’t say. (I don’t think it’s all out of loyalty to Jason Whitlock. If it is, that’s beyond lame.)
I should probably shoot myself for taking this much stock in BS’s opinion.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And your imagination for printing a lie.
You’re overreacting pretty wildly. I stand by my statement. I’m skeptical of any assertion that isn’t supported by compelling evidence, particularly when the assertion is made by a raving fanboy. Your repeating the same assertion, in comparably raving fashion, doesn’t change that.
I’m not going to convince you of anything you don’t already believe.
If that’s true, it’s only because you haven’t made a persuasive case. I’m totally open to new ideas.
Curry won’t ever get to the line 10 times a game. He’s not that type of player. If Curry ever draws fouls like he did the last season at Davidson, he’ll be extremely lucky. I’m not saying it’s impossible; just not very likely.
Curry is not a guy who gets to the line as much because he is a perimeter player. He doesn’t drive to the cup like Tyreke Evans does. One of the drawbacks of Evans going to the cup so much is he’ll put up in an ill-advised shot every now & again. One of the upsides is that he gets to the line a lot. To the tune of 6 1/2 times a game.
Let’s say Steph Curry ends up in the Steve Nash realm. The most Nash has ever gotten to the line is 4.5 times a game. If Curry ever draws that many I wont’ be shocked, but impressed.
This is all true, and well said, but kind of a straw man relative to what I wrote. The point was not that Curry is likely to become a foul-drawing beast, but that it’s silly to cherry-pick one demonstrably strong aspect of a young player’s game while charitably “projecting” the weak aspects. Especially when we’re talking about a retrospective award, not a prediction of future performance.
Just disagree heavily on the Harold Minor (that’s low IMO) point
Haha. Low, for sure. But again, I think you may have missed the point. It wasn’t that Evans = Miner (if I haven’t made it clear, I think Evans is a very exciting young player and a worthy ROY choice). It was that basing a ROY case for Evans on the fact that he’s been “compared by many experts as a mini-LeBron, minus the […] athletic ability” is lame and silly. I just thought the two-word phrase “Baby Jordan” was better suited to exposing the lameness and silliness of the comment than a wordy explanation. I didn’t think anyone would actually infer a serious comparison of Evans and Miner. I guess I gotta learn to better modulate my snark.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 17, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
You’re overreacting pretty wildly. I stand by my statement. I’m skeptical of any assertion that isn’t supported by compelling evidence, particularly when the assertion is made by a raving fanboy. Your repeating the same assertion, in comparably raving fashion, doesn’t change that.
What is compelling evidence? 82games? Warrior fan opinion? I don’t know where you can gauge something is “compelling evidence” and whether someone is clutch or not. I think Tyreke is based on my observations of the entire season. I don’t do fanboy’ism. That nonsense is for the birds.
This is all true, and well said, but kind of a straw man relative to what I wrote. The point was not that Curry is likely to become a foul-drawing beast, but that it’s silly to cherry-pick one demonstrably strong aspect of a young player’s game while charitably "projecting" the weak aspects. Especially when we’re talking about a retrospective award, not a prediction of future performance.That’s not what I was doing. I was, too, making a point like you were Sleepy. There’s been some nonsense from each side on this debate. Saying that Tyreke is NOT clutch is definitely one area in that nonsense. I won’t attempt to convince you because, frankly, I don’t really care. Clutch is something different people define as. But, I would suspect that Evans & Curry had clutch moments in this season. Who had more? Who knows. As to how many "moments’ each might have had, that’s probably in the eye of the beholder.
I didn’t think anyone would actually infer a serious comparison of Evans and Miner. I guess I gotta learn to better modulate my snark.
I was more or less kidding about comparing Evans to Miner being low. That was snark on my end too. I figured you weren’t being all that serious with it. Neither was I. Still my first instinct is, Harold Miner, really?
If that’s true, it’s only because you haven’t made a persuasive case. I’m totally open to new ideas.
I am too, But that doesn’t mean either of us is going to convince each other of something we aren’t ready to believe regardless of what evidence is given.
This is what I know. Each fanbase should be happy with each player. Tyreke is tremendous at getting to the basket. He’s the best in the entire NBA at getting shots up at the rim. Curry had one of the highest eFG% from 3 in the entire NBA. (It would take me too long to figure out exactly where. Safely top 10, but where exactly I don’t know.)
Beyond that is clearly a matter of opinion.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
and became the first rookie ever to average 17 points and two 3s per game and top 85 percent free throw shooting and 40 percent 3-point shooting
Dang, the Himalayanesque 17, 2X3,.85X.40 barrier has been conquered? …. kinda makes that asteroid mission look insignificant now?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 16, 2010 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions
An unbiased opinion on the subject
8th alias and on probation
I promise to be kinder and gentler
Probation is a slippery slope
Dude. Your “unbiased” source is ex- (banned?) GSoMer Rocky, a self-styled “writer” who can barely construct a coherent English sentence, thinks “number of 30/10 games” is a meaningful statistic, and rests his case against Evans on the fact that he happened to foul out in his last game?
Sigh.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 16, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Actually
Tyreke didn’t foul out in his last game; he was ejected. Haha. Not exactly an improvement, but his T’s were pretty ridiculous. It was against the Lakers though, so it wasn’t altogether surprising.
D’oh, my bad. I meant “thrown out.” You have to admit though, Evans getting thrown out in the last game is pretty compelling evidence that he didn’t deserve ROY. Right up there with the fact that his cousin is a criminal. (I keeed…)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 17, 2010 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions
oh im sorry
when are they going to announce Curry’s Rookie of the Year Award???
DUBfan4life!!!!
by BayAreaKidd650 on Apr 18, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Reke 4 ROY
Tyreke Evans hands down should win it not only because of him averaging 20-5-5 but being mvp of the rookie game, top high school basketball player, mvp in the all-american game, future nba mvp, very consistent player, top player at memphis, and evans is talked about in the whole nba regarding the great future he will have. Also check nba.com because Evans is always talked about in being the front runner for rookie of the year. Tyreke showed it through the whole season and curry came into the picture too late. Lastly think about it do you know who guards tyreke evans and who guards curry during games. Tyreke has to go against some of the best defenders in the nba like ron artest during games and kobe bryant while curry is guarded by other SMALL point guards and worse players. F.Y.I this website is biased for the warriors so more people would like curry on here and tyreke actually has teamates unlike curry who maybe gets a few 30point games
Reke 4 R.O.Y
Stand with Reke he is the real Rookie of the year
mvp of the rookie game
I don’t think this isn’t among the criteria for the award, any more than performance in the All-Star game is among the criteria for MVP. If it is the primary consideration, the award should probably go to DeJuan Blair.
top high school basketball player, mvp in the all-american game […] top player at memphis,
Haha. I’m pretty sure while Evans was doing these things, Curry was having himself a half-decent college career. What the frak any of this has to with the NBA Rookie of the Year award is another question.
future nba mvp
Haha. They really need to get the ROY voters crystal balls.
F.Y.I this website is biased
Unlike you, “REKE 4 R.O.Y.” ;-P
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 18, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions
evans is just another...
kevin martin, that is why they traded him, how can you have two of the same style players?? At least the Dubz have a true point guard and a true shooting guard, sure they are a bit under sized but look at the numbers they put up together. They are the most dominant back court in the nba. The problem the warriors had was no BIG MAN to be a threat inside due to injuries galore. Randolph, Wright, Biedrins, Turiaf is the whole starting front court that went down in the beginning of the season. Evans and Kings on the other hand had no excuses of injuries 99% of the season and they ended up losing more games than are team of D-Leaguers…if the Kings can only see how much more potential Curry has over Evans. If Evans wins it, i wont be angry because i know our Dubz found a diamond in the rough and he WILL bring the Warriors to the playoffs next season…“now take that and cram it up your cram hole”
DUBfan4life!!!!
IIRC
Oden was when he returned.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 20, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
The Truth
Um…you guys are all aware that Tyreke Evans IS going to win ROY, right? I’m not trying to take anything away from Stephen Curry or say that he didn’t have an amazing rookie season. I’m also not coming on here as a Kings fan trying to gloat about our rookie. I’m just trying to speak the truth. When all the votes come in, Evans will be holding the trophy. Whether or not he deserves it, that’s a matter of opinion. But, for the most part, the opinions of those with votes are going to go in favor of Evans.
And just to refute a few points from the article: First, Tyreke Evans is an great defender. I don’t know what games the author of this article was watching. Also, how is one a ball hog when they average nearly 6 assists a game during their rookie season(especially when most of the players on said team are garbage)? Curry didn’t go much better in that category. In fact, their minutes played, assists and turnover stats were nearly identical. Not to mention Curry played 8 more games than Evans. Does anyone really believe Evans couldn’t have put up the same numbers had he played 8 more games? And if you do, you’re just kidding yourself. Evans is a stud. And if you’re going to let your bias keep you from seeing how talented he really is, then you’re no better than most bandwagon-jumping Lakers fans. Yes, I’m a Kings fan. But Evans IS going to win ROY regardless of who I cheer for. I do think he deserves it, but that’s merely my opinion. And I’m not afraid to say that Curry is an amazing player who deserves whatever accolades he receives. I don’t need to question his skills, numbers and teammates in order to make my team’s rookie look better. If he does end up winning ROY, I’ll give him all the credit in the world and admit that I was wrong. The logical part of my brain just doesn’t see that happening.
Reke
Evans has been in the race all year. Jennings the first couple months, Curry the last 3 months. Could someone remind me what the name of the award is? Oh, rookie of the YEAR. The rookie who has been the best all YEAR. Evans has been doing work all YEAR long. If Evans doesn’t win the ROY, Lebron better not win MVP, because the voters would be on crack.
bias
my god your so biased…i never read so much hometown favouritism in my life. Ihave no problems if you picked curry to win, it’s just that you make it seem like there’s no competition. I just wanna add some details
you make it seem like evans is stephen jackson while curry and martins are the innocent good guys. As I am sure martins is only a scorer while evans is a scoring pg and that cant always work. Theres nothing wrong with evans being a scorer first, scoring pgs do exist
you try to undermine the whole 20-5-5 thing by saying hes not a point guard, well lebron got it too and hes not a point guard either. Then you say stephen jackspn got it last year, hello you fool hes an established pro, the 20-5-5 thing is an accomplishment for ROOKIES not seasoned veterans.
Also i’ll undermine currys stats too. Hes playing for don nelson, do you know how easy it is easy to get stats under his system. Do you know how many times david lee got 8 or 9 assists this year under dántoni? Why should we credit him when all his team does his score and not play defense. Though currys 3rd in steals it doesnt mean hes a good defender.
this has to be the dumbest
article i’ve ever read. sure this is a gs blog, but you have to approach this junk with a impartial view. maybe thats why stephen curry didnt win! plus stephen jackson achieved 20-5-5 in his 10 th season on a bad team. the argument against reke is abosultely ridiculous. bad defender? stat hunter? chemistry disruptor? you need to watch some more film of the kings, ese. you fail!
and next time, if you want people to take you seriously
get off steph currys nuts, hes a damn beast but in five years i see reke doing a lot more with this game then steph.
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