This is Why Tyreke Evans Wins Rookie of the Year But Who Will Be the Better Player
Firstly for all you GSOMers I want to remind you I am a huge Warriors fan and I think Curry is deserving of the Rookie of the Year, and I clearly want him to win it. However the problem is we just can't argue with a player who has been the equal of Steph "statistically" throughout and better for a 3rd of the season outright.
However this post is as much about the present as it is the future, so read on...

Why Tyreke Evans is the Rookie of the Year
I feel our argument as Golden State fans has centered around what we have seen from Steph in the last few months, and those months have been nothing short of incredible.
However we cannot make the assumption that because he's doing all this now, he would have been doing this in November, December and January had Nelson allocated him the ball-handling responsibilities and played him more.
What we know:
Judging the season as a whole, Tyreke has the better stats -
I have been inclined to believe that actually this is due to Tyreke having the ball more and this is partly true
Tyreke Evans per game stats - 20.1 points | 7.4/16.2 FG (45.8%) | 5.3 rebounds | 5.8 assists | 25.5% 3pt FG
Stephen Curry per game stats - 17.5 points | 6.6/14.3 FG (46.2%) | 4.5 rebounds | 5.9 assists | 43.7% 3pt FG
It could be argued that if Steph takes the extra 2 shots per game that Tyreke gets, that he ends up with 19.5 - 20.5 PPG. This would nullify the extra PPG Tyreke gets. This is what has happened over the last couple of months. In Janurary Curry took 15.1 shots and ended up with 19.1 points, in February he took 17.5 shots and got 21.5 points, March, 16.4 shots, 19.8 points. All this culminated in April where Monta missed all but 2 games and Curry played like the m an scoring 26.5 points on 20.3 shots.
This does suggest that if Curry had been the man all season he would equal Tyreke statistically (note Curry averaged roughly 5.1 rebounds over those 4 months, giving him the legendary 20-5-5 during that period that a ridiculous weight has been placed on).
However we must remember that Curry has been rewarded by the league for being the best rookie in the West for 4 months during the season, its not like he is being ignored. Its just that even with those performances he wasn't able to replicate what Tyreke did off the bat and consistently throughout the entire season. While Curry was getting acclimated with the game at NBA level, Tyreke was on a tear and leading Sacramento to a 14-17 start.
Part of the reason that Steph didn't get these numbers early in the season is clearly due to Don Nelson playing Monta Ellis as the main PG, but also its because Steph worked at his game during the season and was a different player come January. There's no guarantee that if circumstances had been different in the first 2 months and he'd been the main ball handler, that he'd be able to get the same numbers he got later in the season.
Potentially his season and career may be the better for the fact he wasn't given everything on a plate over the first 2 months. We've seen that he worked at his game and became the better player for it whereas Evans has been the same player all season.
Remember the Rookie of the Year is not an award given to who is playing the best by the end of the year, rather it is given to whoever has had the best overall year.
I'm sure if we were in the situation where we had the rookie with the better statistics overall and who had been consistent throughout we'd be going all out supporting him.

HOWEVER NONE OF THIS IS TO SAY THAT WHOEVER WINS THE ROOKIE OF THE YEAR HAS SHOWN THEY ARE THE BETTER PLAYER
Why Stephen Curry has proved he is right now, and will in the future, be the better player
Evans will be unstoppable once he learns how to shoot - How many times have we read on a draft profile of a forward or a center "he needs to improve his footwork and add some postmoves to his repertoire". It always annoys me that its just expected that any young big will add some post moves when they get in the NBA, as if as soon as they shake David Stern's hand at the Draft they get the ability. But how man big guys are actually great in the post or more importantly how many seem to develop a great post repertoire years into their NBA career? Most young bigs seem to be afraid to try moves in the post because in the NBA they are playing against players who can match their athleticiscm and size, which never happened in the NCAA.
The same can be said for the idea that any young guard with a poor shot will be able to improve it dramatically to become a good shooter just because their now in the NBA. Tyreke is not a good shooter, witness 25.5% from 3, there's no divine right for him to end up with a good J just because he is a good young guard. He's probably been playing ball for most of his life (say 15 years), is there any reason that he is going to become a great jump shooter from now on after all the practice he must have put in to become the quality player he is now. Look at Lebron, even now, 7 years into his NBA career, defences still hope that they can force him to shoot the jump shot. Lebron appears to be a passable shooter because defenders sag off him so much due to his speed and passing ability, therefore most of the looks he gets are given to him, playing into the defences hands. I'd say Lebrons current shooting ability is about the ceiling for Tyreke's jump shot which in my mind means he will never be more than a player that other teams set up their defence to encourage them to shoot.
Evans is as good at passing as Stephen Curry because they are averaging the same number of assists - Just because he averages the same number of assists as Curry doesn't mean he's getting them the same way and thus is the same kind of facilitator. When I see Evans I see a player who gets into the lane whenever he wants and will pass when all options are shut off around him. John Hollinger in his article The NBA's Biggest Ball Hogs says this: (Note the main text shouldn't be in CAPS or italics, it just won't turn off)
"Evans plays point guard much of the time and thus has a decent assist ratio, but that masks his major weakness as a playmaker: He thinks sequentially. As in, "First, I'll look for my shot; only when I am cut off, I'll look to see what's going on around me." As a result he might be one of the most frustrating teammates in the league"
Monta Ellis averages 5.5 assists and no-one would call him a good passer. His assist number follow the same principle, drive drive drive and if nothings on pass to someone who's open. This means they both get their assists mainly due to the frequency with which they have the ball, as opposed to showing natural playmaking ability.
Tyreke has been playing as the primary ball handler and playmaker for Sacramento and yet has ended up averaging 5.8 assists which isn't what you'd expect from a good playmaker. Curry on the other hand has been averaging 7.3, 7.3 and 8.1 assists in the last 3 months of the season in which he has been the main playmaker. Personally this is what I want from my Point Guard and those assist averages suggest that we can expect Curry to average at least 8 assists per game next season.
Furthermore Curry averaged his 5.9 assists per game whilst having a usage rate of 20.9. Evans on the other hand averaged 5.8 assists per game, with a usage rate of 25.4. So Evans had 25% more possessions, but less assists, suggesting Curry is the more natural passer.
Evans can't really be called a point guard or even a point forward until passing becomes as big a part of his game as his slashing does. I understand he was on a poor team where the coaches designated him as the man but still, Golden State mainly runs a system of ISO's with the odd pick and roll, yet Curry found the open man regularly even though few plays were run.
Also it's been noted that Evans is two years younger, without significant experience at the point before heading into the NBA. However Curry also didn't get much experience at the point for Davidson. Thus his playmaking is all the more surprising and there's no inherent reason why Evans will get to this level after another year playing the point.
On your Championship team who would you rather have as the main guy - Tyreke's passing abilities makes me question whether he can ever be the best player on a championship team as he doesn't involve his team-mates nearly enough for a primary ball handler. Sacramento has become the Tyreke show, and this makes me wonder whether his stats can actually improve as much as people think. This year he has had more freedom to get his own than he may ever have in the future. Will he ever be in a position again where he has such poor team-mates that whatever shot he can make for himself will probably be better than a different shot from another player. Thus when/if Sacramento become a playoff team will he be able to lead them to a championship as a slasher without significant playmaking abilities. (Note the main text shouldn't be in CAPS or italics, it just won't turn off)
But Evans is averaging 20-5-5 - I take issue with the 20-5-5 arbitrary grouping that seems to have elevated Evans rookie year to a status it never deserved to be. Now his stats are really impressive. 20.1 points, how many rookies do that? 6 assists, pretty good. 5.3 rebounds, pretty good for a point guard, though is it really that great for a 6 ft 6 guard/forward. Nonetheless no matter how he gets those numbers they are damn impressive, especially for a rookie and suggests all areas of his statistical game are solid and have room for growth. My issue with the 20-5-5 'legend' is that to me if he averages 19.9 points of 4.9 rebounds, he has still had the same sick rookie season. I don't care about that .1 rebound or point. Witness the shameless pursuit of the numbers in his penultimate game, by pursuing the stat the team lost from a promising winning position. What was the point of that. His rookie season by the end turned into the pursuit of a group of numbers rather than a quest to improve himself as a player (Goal Accomplished). However the only reason that he was in a position to get those stats by the end of the season, was because his natural game at the start of the season put him near those numbers.
Also a quick look at Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan's 20-5-5 rookie seasons (thanks to Atma Brother ONE for the numbers he put on a different post):
Oscar Robertson (rookie 1960-1961): 30.5 ppg (55.5% TS), 10.1 rpg, 9.7 apg (steals weren’t recorded back then)
Michael Jordan (rookie 1984-1985): 28.2ppg (59.2% TS), 6.5 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.4 steals
Tyreke Evans (rookie 2009-2010) 20.1 ppg (52.9% TS), 5.3 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.5 steals
Tyreke is not even in the same area code as Oscar and Michael. They performed significantly better in every category (except Jordan's assists). Oscar scored a full 10.4 more points per game on more efficient scoring. None of this is to say that Tyreke can't be a star, its just that he has been grouped with these players because he has eclipsed these round, conven ient numbers (20-5-5) that the other 2 flew past. It doesn't mean his numbers aren't awesome for a rookie, just there have been plenty of more impressive rookie seasons that just don't eclipse these round numbers.
Check Chris Paul's rookie season: 16 ppg (12 shots!) / 8 apg / 5 rebounds per game / 2.2 steals
They are the kind of numbers that are sensational for a rookie point guard. We shouldn't get caught up in the idea that Evans is having one of the best rookie seasons ever because of the 20-5-5. Chris Paul in my mind had a much better season than him or Curry it just didn't fulfil the same historical category's.
Also Curry is in his own elite group (Thanks to Jae for the info):
"At the same time (as Evans numbers bring up Oscar, Lebron and Jordan), in the 17.2 / 5.9 / 4.4 / 1.9 / .565 TS as a rookie category, it turned up"
Stephen Curry
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
No-one in the media mentions that.
It doesn't mean Curry is the next Magic or the next Jordan. It just means he's putting up great numbers as a rookie like Evans.
Not enough weight has been placed on Stephen Curry's craft - Evans is stronger, has better physical attributes, but he doesn't have the skill that Curry has. Some people think this means that once Evans gets more skills and doesn't just rely on his ability to get to the rim he will be better than Curry. However this overlooks the fact that Curry is applying his skill all the time in practice. We've seen him learn move after move that he's been using in games throughout the season. Witness his shake and bake on Chris Anderson. So while Evans can become more skilled than he is now, I say Curry always remains a step ahead as he keeps on adding more moves to his repertoire.
His J -

He's a more efficient shooter than Evans - Now this isn't the be-all and end-all but surely its an advantage that one player is a more efficient shooter who is in the Top 10 in the league in 3PT %. His TS% of 56.8 is significantly better than Tyreke's at 52.9%.
He's been playing with two of the most 'me first' players in the NBA yet has still managed to get his whilst letting them get theirs - Now this is the part of the argument that to me far outweighs the argument that his numbers are inflated as he plays in the No 1 paced Warriors offense. So Golden State have 102.7 possessions per game, Sacremento have 96.5 (source). Now 6 more possessions is quite a lot, however he has the ball vacuum that is Corey Maggette who averages only 2.5 assists per game, yet takes up about 17-20 possessions per game.
Then there is our last designated point guard of the future, Monta Ellis. Well he was the captain of the All-Gunner team. He'll happily take a contested deep 2 with 20+ seconds left on the shot clock... because he can. Furthermore he probably had one of the most disappointing 26 ppg seasons we'll ever witness. No-one really appreciated it because it didn't help the team. He acted as if every possession the shot he would get, taking on the entire defence was going to be what was best for the team.
Tyreke only had Carl Landry as a solid scorer on the team who averaged 18.3 points.
Off the court attitude - He's humble, down-to-earth and smart. We've all heard how the GSW locker room is now full of "Curry's guys" and how he's the kind of team-mate that anyone would want to play with. This is great going forward as it improves our ability (as if we have any with the current ownership) to attract free agents. Would a ball dominant player fancy playing in Sacramento next to Tyreke knowing Tyreke will always be the alpha-dog, but doesn't have the same 'pass-first' mentality.
This also makes me feel good about our team chemistry as Curry keeps everyone involved. With Curry as the man I don't see his team-mates becoming disillusioned with him as he gives them every chance to shine.
Why Stephen Curry may never eclipse Tyreke Evans (in tribute to the Sactown fans)

Stephen Curry is playing in the Warriors system at the fastest pace in the NBA - This means that the stats he is putting up are slightly inflated and so better stats to look at would be his Usage Numbers.
Stephen Curry - Assist Rate 24.6 % | Turnover 16.5 %
Tyreke Evans - Assist Rate 26.1 % | Turnover 13.6 %
I think there are some counters to the assist numbers. For example this does nothing to say Curry is a worse passer than Evans (who mainly gets his assists from drives and dishes when his options are cut off). It could even be explained by how Curry shares the ball more, to get his other teammates involved, without providing them directly with assists. Then again we can't in any way disrespect the fact that Evans assists on 26.1 % of his possessions, no matter how he gets them. They're good numbers.
However the Turnover % is important as Evans has a clear lead, which is pretty impressive considering the dangers of driving into traffic and considering defences have geared their defences against him all season.
Curry is 2 years older and has a head start on Evans - This argument can go both ways. On one hand Curry is now a more polished player who has a more solid base of overall skills from which to improve on. Also as Curry's game isn't based so much on his athleticism he is likely to have a longer career barring injury.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/news/story?id=4978548
This article makes the case for how high school players going straight into the NBA have flamed out early due to wear and tear. While Evans obviously didn't come straight from High School he is on that end of the spectrum compared to the 2 extra years Curry spent in college.
However this means that Evans is at an unfair disadvantage when comparing them as he could be a completely different player in 2 years. He'll be a better shooter and probably a better floor general unless Sacremento draft a pure point guard and put him off the ball.
Why Tyreke has shown he is better than Stephen Curry, right now and will eclipse him in the future

His stats are better than Lebron's were in his rookie year -
Lebrons rookie year: 20.9 ppg | 7.9/18.9 FG (41.7%) | 5.9 apg | 5.5 rpg | 29% from 3PT
Lebron averaged 0.8 more points on almost 3 more shots and the same number of assists. Tyreke appears to be more efficient and manages to get the same amount of assists. This suggests that Tyreke is starting on a similar level to Lebron and can hope to improve his game in the same ways, higher efficiency, better passing etc.
Going to the basket is one of the best skills to have in the NBA - I can't remember the exact number (Sacramento fans help please) but I think he's top of the league in makes and attempts at the rim. Its the most efficient way to score in the NBA and it serves the dual purpose of getting points and the other team in foul trouble. If your going to start either being a good jump shooter or a player that can attack the rim, many people would say being able to attack the rim is the most desirable attribute. Attacking the rim is determined more by physical attributes than skill and so Curry won't be able to become as good at attacking the rim as Evans is (however do any of us really believe Evans can ever be anywhere near as good a shooter as Steph).
Where will he be in 2 years - With a good work ethic and the support of a franchise behind him he has every chance to develop into a star. We'll have a better idea come next season how much his shot has improved, but its safe to say it will be better. In two years time he will be the same age as Steph is now, and its hard to argue that come that time he won't be significantly better than Steph was at the same time.
Where are the bigs - He like Curry, doesn't have a quality big to prevent teams sending excess help when he breaks into the lane. If Evans had this, not only would he shoot a higher percentage from inside but he'd have someone to dish to every time the help comes. This may help him improve his scoring, his efficiency and his assists. This furthermore suggests that we can't knock Evans for being one dimensional when he doesn't have a big to ease the load.
So what if he's not the best facilitator, played off the ball he could be the perfect SG - This is a point that has come up in discussions and is an opinion I share. So what if Tyreke is not the perfect point guard? Played off the ball he could possibly be a more dominant player and help his team win more.
So say Sacramento found themselves a quality PG, great at distributing the ball and reading defenses. Evans would be able to move off the ball and pick his areas of attack. There's no reason to say that he couldn't average 20 points as a slasher easily but that's not the point. He is clearly good at finding the open man when he beats his defender and gets into the lane, so there's no reason he couldn't get himself 5 assists a game doing that. This would make him not necessarily a superstar, but perhaps more effective and would definitely help his team win more (provided you have that good point guard). Who'd complain about having a WadeLight.
There's no reason he can't produce the 20 points and 5 assists he is now in a more efficient way, this would mean Sacramento end up with a great SG who's abilities may be just as effective as Curry's are at PG.
In summary, I don't know why the Sacramento fans are so worked up about Evans being the PG/ primary ball-handler of the future. We have a similar player called Monta Ellis who isn't much of a playmaker, but tries to take on the whole defence and score whilst passing as a last resort. Even though he averages 5.3 assists giving the impression that he is a decent playmaker, we pray that he goes back to scoring 20 points off the ball at 53% shooting. Don't fall into the trap (like we did) of thinking just because a player can handle the ball and is great going to the rim, that he is your point guard of the future, no matter how much potential you think they have.
What is clutch - In my mind he has shown he can be what you Americans like to call "clutch". Being clutch is an idea i don't really understand as it seems to me there's no reason why a player should be lauded for making a shot at the end of the game, that we wouldn't have batted an eyelid to during the earlier part of the game. For example why is Kobe considered a 'clutch assassin' when he's made 26 of 89 game-winners in his career, if i was a Laker I'd be angry that this guy has decided to take almost 90 game winners but makes only 29% of them. I digress though, I just can't get over the game winner Tyreke hit against Denver . He didn't just chuck up a shot that would have had a roughly 35% chance of going in, he had the presence of mind to drive to the basket, fake and scoop. Kobe would have just made some space for a jumper that he probably hits about 35-40% on (his 29% overall is probably skewed to make him appear worse because of the number of heaves he's had to make). But Tyreke got himself an open look within about 8 ft of the basket that he'll make about 70% of the time, against a defence that was geared towards stopping him getting to the basket. I thought for a rookie 2-3 months into his career, that was special.
He's also hit a game winner against the Bucks
Teams are already planning their defences around Evans yet he still puts up great numbers - This is sort of self explanatory. He's managed to dominate games whilst playing against teams that completely focus on him. His only other consistent scorer to ease the load is Landry who has averaged 19 ppg since arriving in Sactown.
He's also been primarily accountable for the Kings improved record this year (up from 17 wins to 25). That's pretty impressive for a rookie on a team with no real upgrades over the previous years squad.
Nash or LeBron - On your championship team would you rather have Nash or Lebron. No question its Lebron every time. Now I personally don't believe Evans will ever be like Lebron because arguably he is one of the best passers in the league, but say he does develop the passing ability of just a good Point Guard (it's in no way unreasonable). He could become a Top 5 player in the league. He'd be combining the ability to get into the lane with playmaking from the top of the key. If I was guarding Tyreke i would not know what to do.
Evans game has appeared to be improving throughout the season with respect to his passing. He has averaged 7, 7.5 and 5.3 assists in the last 3 months. While these aren't quite the same as Steph's, if he's going to average these number consistently next year he is the man to handle the ball.
D - D is half of the game, or in the case of GSW about 55% of the game as we can't rebound. No matter what we think of Evans and Curry as defenders right now, say they both match up against point guards on D in 2 years, who's going to be the more dominant defender. Tyreke can over power his man and fight through screens much better than Steph.
Who's going to take Evans into the post to beat down on him? No one except maybe JR Smith who seems to think he can do everything.
Also Tyreke can match-up against players at the 1, 2 and 3. That's a pretty valuable part of his game. Think of the problems we're having at GSW because Monta and Curry are both undersized to guard 2's.
However Curry is in the top 4 in steals which suggest he has good hands on D and awareness of passing lanes etc on a level above Evans.
While Steph isn't a bad defender there is no way he has the same potential on that end as Tyreke. He'll never be as strong and simply as long.
Please tell me anything else you think should be added - This is a fan post but I want it to be as balanced as possible
OVERALL
Winning Matters - Stats aside, winning is what we care about. Teams score around 90-100 points a game, so both of these players no matter how good they are, are only going to account for about 20-25 PPG of scoring directly themselves. Ultimately, as they have been designated as the primary ball handlers on their respective teams going into the future, they are going to have to help the other players around them account for the extra 70 points on a nightly basis. To me the player that will do this Curry. He gets his team-mates involved and has no qualms with passing for the sake of ball movement. Even though Evans may forever put up more points per game, to the opposing defence it may always be easier for them to contain Sacramento as they just have to key on Evans. Curry led a team of 2-3 D-Leaguers at the end of the season, without hogging the ball. In the future, when by some miracle Golden State fill out a solid playoff roster, I think Curry will be the man who allows every teammate to thrive. On current trends and evidence, with Evans as the man, a well rounded Sacramento team may never achieve its potential whilst allowing Evans to be a star. (Thanks to Dubs hoops for reminding me to put a section on this topic in the post).
This is just my opinion and I still stand by it after all my discussions with the people over at Sactown. Thanks for a lot of your points as they have really fleshed out the article, and given me a lot more to think about when coming to my conclusions. Your future is all the more brighter for having a player like Tyreke.
So what do you think? Is Curry the future, or Tyreke? Or in fact are they both so good that each team can build around them, and in the end the debate will become moot because they're such different players? To be honest we should be the 2 teams laughing, we had the 4th and 7th pick yet we ended up with players that are the envy of every other team in the lottery (except maybe the Clips).
Thanks for reading, the post will be updated accordingly with anything people add in the comments
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Comments
'What should [you] add?'
I think you just about touched all the bases… maybe let us know how the weather is over in the UK? But seriously an excellent post. I particularly appreciate the attention paid to the over-hyped and trumpeted 20-5-5 stat. I hadn’t taken the time to see what MJ and Oscar had done their rookie years, but it’s plainly obvious that creating the realm of 20-5-5 w/ nice round numbers was something fabricated to include Lebron in their company (for Lebron’s rookie year). There’s no denying Tyreke has had a good rookie season, and maybe he is the most deserving of all the rookies, but it becomes an exceedingly weak argument, to me, when the ROY is discussed/debated and the Tyreke contingent goes back to his stats, and ‘blah-blah-blah only Lebron, Oscar and MJ have done it.’
Truth of the matter is we should care less about the ROY and more about which team has more success in the coming years and who, between Curry and Tyreke, is more responsible for their respective team’s successes (and failures). I’m confident Curry and the Warriors will be better off in the years to come, no matter who wins the ROY.
I also enjoyed reading your analysis of the the term clutch-
Being clutch is an idea i don’t really understand as it seems to me there’s no reason why a player should be lauded for making a shot at the end of the game that we wouldn’t have batted an eyelid to during the earlier part of the game. For example why is Kobe considered clutch when he’s made 26 of 89 game-winners in his career, if i was a Laker I’d be angry that this guy has decided to take almost 90 game winners but makes only 29% of them.- to this, I don’t have anything to say really, just made me laugh.
In all, good post!
Chris Cohan- YOU'RE FIRED!
Cheers for the read man
I was being slightly sarcastic about being “clutch”. There is obviously a big value to a player being able to get off a shot in do or die situations. I just feel player are elevated to other levels just because they make shots late in games. The players that make shots late in games, tend to be the players who are best at making them throughout the game. To me they’re not clutch they’re just great players
I think that’s a very reasonable and accurate take on the value of “clutch”….
by Missing Barry on Apr 18, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
By the way the weather's awful
A Volcano erupted in Iceland and all flights in and out of Britain have been cancelled for the last 3 days.
The weather is actually stunning...
Warm sunshine and clear blue skies..and not the sound of one single commercial aircraft and not one vapour trail in the sky… its a little strange but actually quite nice!
"Never stir up litigation. A worse man can scarcely be found than one who does this" - Abraham Lincoln
by BritWarriorGSW on Apr 18, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Ouch...
Well, honestly this post is okay…
At least you rip Evans hans for ‘hoping’ he’ll be as skilled as Steph one day.
He’s saying to himself: “I wonder why I’m unable to formulate thoughtful, balanced, and well-researched posts like this”
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 18, 2010 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 9 recs
YES YES YES!
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Apr 18, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Evans has in his favor a higher points per game scoring average. Since that’s the single greatest correlate with winning awards in the NBA, he’s got an edge. This doesn’t mean that he was doing more to improve his team’s odds at winning, but it is what the voters (in this case sportswriters, who as a rule don’t show themselves to be more in tune with analysis of the game than fans without professional writing gigs) tend to use as the big determinant.
Also Curry is in his own elite group (Thanks to Sleepy Freud for the info):
“At the same time, in the 17.2 / 5.9 / 4.4 / 1.9 / .565 TS as a rookie category, it turned up”
You misspelled “Thanks to jae for the info”
Sorry man the place i read that it was in a SleepyFreud post
As you are saying it was you originally who put those numbers in, I’ll change that now
You sort of forgot to mention:
The purpose of a point guard is to run a team and then take over when necessary. Evans pretty much takes over all the time. Evans will never be Lebron. Lebron naturally thinks like Steph: ‘If they leave me open for a shot, I’ll take it, but it’s better to get my teammates involved first by looking for the pass’. Evans thinks ‘If I can, I’ll shoot it, if I can’t, I’ll try and find the open man.‘
I know I’m just repeating what Hollinger said about him, but I’m pointing out that it’s a natural attribute to pass first.
Another thing: The ‘once he develops a shot he’ll be better’ totally reminds me of what people said about Shaq, etc. You make a great point.
Yh man
I just added a section at the end under the heading “Winning matters” where I discussed how both teams could lead their teams forward into the future. Give it a read and see if you agree
But I still think you could add in (optional) a 3rd section about Brandon Jennings.
His team wins, but his performances are either high-scoring outputs or bad shooting/sitting back.
Too many times Brandon goes on a scoring tear, and forgets to be a playmaker. If he’s hot, he’ll shoot. If it’s not his day, he’ll become virtually invisible. In terms of winning % I think Brandon will always have the highest of the three, but in a way he makes the same mistakes Evans does, in terms of: If I can shoot, I’ll shoot, instead of, If I can pass, I’ll pass, if they leave me open, I’ll burn them.
Jennings is good but I can’t stop thinking how good Brandon would be if
A) He prepared himself mentally to be ready to shoot
B) He thinks like Curry
Now, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think there’s anyway he’ll be close the Steph when it’s all said and done, but the guy has a lot of potential. He just needs to figure out how to really be a PG before he becomes a Marbury/Iverson mesh.
Good point
The reason I didn’t do a section on Brandon Jennings is I haven’t seen enough of him, maybe I’ll have a good look at him and I’ll add a section on tonight when I get back from playing some ball.
Great post
Very thoughtful, balanced, and well-written. Rec’d.
Also a quick look at Oscar Robertson and Michael Jordan’s 20-5-5 rookie seasons (thanks to Atma Brother ONE for the numbers he put on a different post):
Oscar Robertson (rookie 1960-1961): 30.5 ppg (55.5% TS), 10.1 rpg, 9.7 apg (steals weren’t recorded back then)
Michael Jordan (rookie 1984-1985): 28.2ppg (59.2% TS), 6.5 rpg, 5.9 apg, 2.4 steals
Tyreke Evans (rookie 2009-2010) 20.1 ppg (52.9% TS), 5.3 rpg, 5.8 apg, 1.5 steals
Tyreke is not even in the same area code as Oscar and Michael. They performed significantly better in every category. Oscar scored a full 10.4 more points per game on more efficient scoring. None of this is to say that Tyreke can’t be a star, its just that he has been grouped with these players because he has eclipsed these round, convenient numbers (20-5-5) that the other 2 flew past. It doesn’t mean his numbers aren’t awesome for a rookie, just there have been plenty of more impressive rookie seasons that just don’t eclipse these round numbers.
Totally agree. It’s ridiculous how people throw people into these statistical categories. It’s actually unfair to Tyreke Evans. This is probably one of the reasons why Evans pursued the stats more than improving his game. To be fair, he’s a rookie, so I think as much as we criticize this point, we don’t know if this is an indication of what his career will be. If he’s going to be a good player, we should give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he will pursue development of his game more than pursue stats. Maggette is a perfect example of this type of player and look what it has resulted in: being on loser teams his entire career but able to cash in a check.
Anyway, I find it humorous that the media catapults players, not just Evans, into unfair statistical categories. In similar fashion, the Warriors PR machine promoted Monta Ellis’ stats throughout the season, saying he’s top 6 in scoring…i.e. he’s 6th in the league in scoring. A better example would be for Curry, saying he is the only rookie since Oscar Robertson, MJ, etc. to have 30-10-10 games or something like that. I think Oscar Robertson had like a 40-20-10 (don’t quote me), but the point is what Steph got was impressive but not close to what Oscar Robertson got.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 18, 2010 9:03 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
But - Have you checked this Kid's ID!!!!? He's ONLY 20!
(StR joke) Serously, Younger than MJ who played 3 years like Currry.
I say this with the admission that I wanted the Kings to choose Curry at #4 as I love a nice shot and he was more NBA ready.
Tyreke is however going to be a Wade/LaBron hybrid – and I believe that.
So imitate the action of the tiger!.
Lend the eye a terrible aspect
- and teach them how to war!
Henry V iii
by lietothegirls on Apr 20, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Tyreke is however going to be a Wade/LaBron hybrid – and I believe that.
You do realize, that even as nice of a rookie year as Tyreke has had, that improving to the point of being one of the top 3-5 players in the NBA is probably the “unlikely” rather than the “likely” scenario……right? Or you can just ignore that and be a hopeful fan, I guess. ;)
by Missing Barry on Apr 20, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
You can take your Wade 2.0
but we get Steve Nash and KG. Suck on that! haha
by Reverend_Randy on Apr 21, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Tiny
I hate to say this out loud, but I thing Curry is the closes thing I have seen with the potential
to put up Tiny Archibald like numbers.Tiny’s first three years in the league:
16.00 pts. 5,5 ast – 28.2 pts 9.2 ast.- 34.0 pts 11.4 ast.
Now I don’t think Curry will reach these numbers, because he will not take that many shots,
but I think he will play like he could if he wanted to.
When I first saw B. Jennings his handle and movement reminded me of Tiny but he hasn’t developed the shot or the IQ to be mentioned yet.
Tiny was 6’1 165 and couldn’t be guarded.
Who knows?
Before Monta Ellis returned to the lineup this month, he was averaging
24ppg 10apg 5rpg
CSN bay area analyst Matt Steinmetz said (and I paraphrase)
‘For Curry to average 10apg next season, two things will need to happen;
One, we need a better frontcourt. Even one big addition will do.
Second, Monta Ellis needs to be traded. In case you haven’t noticed, Monta averages near the same apg as Curry and Curry usually gets to 10apg easier without Monta around[…]‘
So for Curry to average 10apg, he’ll need a better frontcourt mate, someone they can get in exchange for Monta.
As for the scoring, maybe not 28ppg- but who knows? Curry seems to get to 29-35 ppg effortlessly, and he can probably average a high # after Monta leaves.
It probably won’t be as high, but…
I have a feeling Steph will go for a 50-40-90 season next year.
After coming back from playing with Team USA, who knows?
He could average 50-50-90.
Plus, the addition of Brandan Wright back in the lineup will be a big help.
And don’t forget our draft pick.
I think it’s possible, Irus.
Tiny couldn’t be guarded?
Why, did he have that clause in his contract?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 19, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Rec'd great Post! Funny thing is that Evans and Curry would make a great front court with Evans at the 2 of course.
Hope Sac doesnt luck into the first pick! Although with Curry’s outside shot he would be an even better combo with Evans rather than Wall. Assuming Evans could adjust to playing with a great distributor.
by Only In Fairfax on Apr 18, 2010 11:16 AM PDT reply actions
I doubt Evans could be effective with another ball-dominant guard in the backcourt. Curry would be perfect because he can switch from one to two.
I agree
One of the main reasons Evans appeared to be ‘effective’ in his rookie season, was because he was a strong guard with the ball in his hands whenever he wanted. If his role was to be a slasher he’d never be able to be the star
If his role was to be a slasher he’d never be able to be the star
I get the point you’re making overall, but I’m a bit unclear what you see the role of a “slasher” being the way you use it here?
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 6:03 AM PDT up reply actions
A player who's game is based solely on driving to the basket
What i wrote in the last sentence didn’t actually make much sense. What I was trying to say is that he got really good numbers as a "slasher’ who dominated the ball for Sacremento. However if they were ever to bring in a player with playmaking skills and put Evans off the ball as a slasher, he’d be more effective but wouldn’t be able to become the star most people think he will become, as he’d have the ball much less.
"If his role was to be a slasher he’d never be able to be the star"
Good comment there, but I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt for now and suggest that he originally is just following his ability to score the best way that he knows how. However Sac does seem to be setting him up as the saviour(here our fans are handling that job) ,if it goes to his head they will be in trouble in the long run.Makes him appear as" slasher Maggette as team point guard". Although to be fair to Maggette …he does not have that “I wanna be the star” attitude,and to be fair fair to Evans ,he does pass the the ball as well. Since he does not shoot well that is the way that he scores and I would suggest that he does not "slash any than Curry shoots from distance . This also seems to be some of the concern about Monta as well but so far he seems to be adjusting. I was actually thinking about the idea of Evans size matchup with Curry as a potential physical defender and yes if a guy with his size and physical abilities “could” accept the off the ball role “and” accept Curry as the leader and distributor then “wow ..what a combo”. Perhaps the way for that to really happen in the future for us is after Curry has a few years as a vet and is the established leader(not the rook or soph.) then find a young guy like Evans who will come in and look up to him(of course this also requires a established coach like Sloan with a team system/player rolesetc)
by Only In Fairfax on Apr 19, 2010 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Yh I agree and I have tried to make a point of mentioning many of Evans' good attributes
However
“I would suggest that he does not “slash any than Curry shoots from distance”.
Possibly true. However when Curry is shooting 44% from distance (66% Effective FG%) he is making the most efficient shot in the game all by himself.
Also by staying at the top of the key he leaves all angles open for any passes thus letting him be more of a playmaker/facilitator.
Whereas when Evans drives into the lane he shuts off his teammates (except for if they’re left open when the help comes).
However as i say in the article. If Evans does develop the passing skills and mentality of even a good PG then he becomes a different player entirely
by UKwarrior on Apr 19, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agree on the first part about efficiency, but don’t agree about the passing angles part. The middle of the key is the best place to pass from – you have the angle to get it to everyone, and it forces the defense to collapse and get out of position.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Yes there are pros and cons of both types of passes, from the perimeter and in the lane
http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=1698
This guy makes a good point about why lebron tends to stay on the perimeter or drive into the lane.
It just mentions how he gets to survey the whole floor from the perimeter. This makes him much better at spotting mismatches, reading defenses and finding open men rolling to the basket.
Getting into the lane is a great why of finding the killer pass for the assist, but not the best way to facilitate the offense, read the defense and get everyone involved
Great point
Also note that the major weakness of the Cavs is that only Lebron can run the pick and roll. Delonte West, Mo Williams, Anthony Parker rarely do.
Quite a bold statement, huh?
Great points, rec'd
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Hey we have a guy on our team that averages
25/5/4/2, and yet everyone thinks we should trader him and he is no good. Reke is not a point guard and SACTO will never be good with him running the offense. That is fact just like Monta can not run our team with stats superior to Reke. 25/5/4/2…. wow. Better than Reke yet neither one of them is as good as Curry.
8th alias and on probation
I promise to be kinder and gentler
Probation is a slippery slope
by StinkyFingers on Apr 18, 2010 1:50 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I didn't know Monta Ellis was a 20 year old rookie
who only spent one year in College….those are impressive stats considering that.
Is that a good thing for Ellis or a bad thing
They average basically the same stats, and Evans is a 20 year old rookie (who you say is less talented right now compared to Ellis) where as Monta is on Season 4 now?
It might be a pretty good thing … if Ellis were actually as productive as Evans. He wasn’t. Evans was a more efficient scorer, and rebounded far better while dropping many more dimes per minute and turning the ball over significantly less.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
You are nice Gilo
I wouldn’t trade Gonorrhea for Monta Ellis.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Is that too hard to comprehend?
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Frankly, all it is is being a troll. Meaningless. Unsupported. Dumb. Really just doesn’t add anything to the conversation at all.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh damn. I feel so bad now.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Probably cause you got Gonorrhea.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
by kenntoe on Apr 19, 2010 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
(Gonorrhea) burn!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh so true.
I do speak from experience.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Re: Gonorrhea for Monta Ellis
give the gift of a superstar . . .
I give pressure the reach-around.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Apr 19, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I also didn't realize that Ellis
was a huge, freakishly gifted combo guard, rather than a really small combo guard.
by Reverend_Randy on Apr 19, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Hahahahahah
The Brits are taking over GSOM! :-)
1776 – 2010 ‘The Empire Strikes Back’
lol … Nice piece btw.
"Never stir up litigation. A worse man can scarcely be found than one who does this" - Abraham Lincoln
You guys should form the equivalent of the “European Union”
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 18, 2010 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
No direct link to the team..
But have been able to do some interesting interviews with Robert Rowell and Larry Riley which are in the archives here. Been a huge GSW fan since the Run TMC days when I was a kid back in the UK. Lived in SF for the past 4 years and was a seson ticket holder and now back in the UK ‘for now’ but hope to be back sometime soon.
BTW to all, I may have another very interesting interview to do in the not too distant future. ;-)
"Never stir up litigation. A worse man can scarcely be found than one who does this" - Abraham Lincoln
by BritWarriorGSW on Apr 19, 2010 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions
1776 – 2010 ‘The Empire Strikes Back’
What I want to know is which is higher on the social ladder, a Brit warrior or a UK warrior?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 19, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Well clearly a Brit Warrior...as he has been 'Knighted' with a ...
GSW after his name… :)
"Never stir up litigation. A worse man can scarcely be found than one who does this" - Abraham Lincoln
by BritWarriorGSW on Apr 19, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
The UK does include Ireland
Not to start a political debate, but … just Northern Ireland, right? (And Scotland and Wales, of course).
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Well the UK does include Ireland, whereas Britain doesn't
?huh ? Doesn’t Ireland out rank England for social standing?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 19, 2010 7:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Good post
Reke will win it just cause he is Reke but Steph WILL end up better
The person who writes for fools is always sure of a large audience.
The Evans game winner
would not be a game winner if he was on the Warriors. Denver would’ve been rewarded 3 freethrows for a 3-pointer foul at then end a-la monta elli.
haha nvm I was hopin another Kings fan would catch that
It was a knock on Grant Napear for always rhetorically asking if anyone had checked Tyreke’s age.
Actual question, how many years did Curry spend at Davidson? I can’t remember but i’m gonna guess 4 since he is 22. It shows a lot in both of these players games with regards to how long they stayed in college. I know he wouldn’t be a King (or maybe would who knows how bad we will still suck) but I wonder what Evans game would look like with a few more years on a campus. With that said though Curry didn’t take over PG duties until his last year in school, which makes what he is doing playmaking wise all the more impressive.
haha nvm I was hopin another Kings fan would catch that
I caught it Gilo. There’s only so many Peaches jokes I can take.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
The shrink would just say I'd have to make a lifestyle change.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
22 years old
Curry turned 22 in March, Evans turns 21 in Sept.
So Curry will play next season at 22, Evans at 21.
Great Post!
Like I mentioned in my post, I still agree that Tyreke will win ROY, though I think right now, Curry is(was) playing at a higher level.
It’s all comes down to how you look at ROY, whether it was who had the best #’s or who at the end of the season is the better player. I chose the former, Tyreke wins by the 2.6 ppg margin, if you chose the latter, Curry wins it.
You mad some very good points in your post. Rec’d
It’s all comes down to how you look at ROY, whether it was who had the best #’s or who at the end of the season is the better player.
Personally, I think Curry wins both of those, though I acknowledge that the “numbers” the voters use are bad ones, and they do favor Tyreke. If you look at better numbers (they don’t), Curry > Tyreke.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
all efficiency numbers point to curry.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
by LostHawkGSW on Apr 19, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
17.4 points on 56.8% TS% is better than 19.5 points on 52.9% TS%. Curry averaged slightly more assists and steals per 36 minutes, too. The only place Tyreke was better was as a rebounder.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Per 36 means nothing if you don't look at pace adjusted stats.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
Ha, yes, if you want to be exact, you should look at pace adjusted stats, but that doesn’t mean per 36 doesn’t mean anything. The difference in pace tends to be a very minor factor. If you want to really get exact you have to look at how each player was used, too, and in this case, the two factors are pretty darn close to offsetting.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
And pace adjustments are only +/- 5-10%
Not insignificant, but looking at per 36 numbers isn’t nearly as inaccurate as other standard measures (i.e. per game numbers, or per career numbers ala ElRonToro).
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
GSW had 6 more possessions per game than Sac
This advantage to Curr is more than made up for by the 18 possessions Maggette consumes and the 25 odd Monta takes.
Curry only had a usage rate of 20 whereas Evans had a usage rate of 25. So pace isn’t really relevant.
It is for AST rate, REB rate, etc.
Grandmaster of the "Never let AnotherStupidSN forget what a Sham-Wow is" Order and Originator of the "Brock Ness Monster".
It is for AST rate
Maybe rebound rate, but not assist rate. That’s the whole point – the Warriors might get more possessions, but Curry uses a smaller amount of our possessions, and the result is…..well, a pretty close number of possessions for each of them. If they’re using about the same number of possessions….well, then assist rate can be compared, right?
by Missing Barry on Apr 20, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
What I take away from this post is
The main difference between Evans’ future and Curry’s future is that as a GM, you have to build a team that caters to Evans whereas you can build a team around Curry. My prediction is that the Sacramento GM will have a much harder time trying to find a successful formula for Evans than it would be for Curry.
There are no disgruntled teammates (with Curry) on the Warriors, the most telling being Monta Ellis; his unhappiness was before the season started. Everyone wants to play with Curry. I want to play with Curry.
Evans is like that guy on your pick-up basketball team. You know what I’m talking about. It’s great to have him on your team because no one can guard him but standing out on the perimeter and running up and down the court for no reason gets pretty boring. And when you’re surprised when you do get a pass and mess up the shot and you feel even more out of place. Okay, maybe that doesn’t happen on the NBA level.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 19, 2010 9:06 AM PDT reply actions 4 recs
+1
Exactly. You cannot build a championship team around Evans. He’s not the type of player to put role players around and make them better. He’s the kind to shoot on intstinct and pass on instruction. As for Curry, like you said, can coexist with anyone. This is why I’m not scared if we land Evan Turner, who is somewhat ball dominant. Turner can play off the ball. And Curry can too.
You know what I’m talking about. It’s great to have him on your team because no one can guard him but standing out on the perimeter and running up and down the court for no reason gets pretty boring. And when you’re surprised when you do get a pass and mess up the shot and you feel even more out of place. Okay, maybe that doesn’t happen on the NBA level.You have a loooong way to go, buddy.
You have a loooong way to go, buddy.
I have no idea what you mean.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 19, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions
"You have a loooong way to go, buddy"
Doc, I think hoops"imagines" that he is the guy that you were talking about ha! The Evans of the pickup gms. Sad but true.
by Only In Fairfax on Apr 19, 2010 9:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Duh ;-)
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 19, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
No, I wasn’t. I was insisting that if you play with those kinds of players, and don’t make the first shot they give you, you have a long way to go in terms of being able to play with those kinds of guys. It’s very tough. Playing with Curry, to me would be more fun just because he shares the ball more often.
No, I wasn’t. I was insisting that if you play with those kinds of players, and don’t make the first shot they give you, you have a long way to go in terms of being able to play with those kinds of guys. It’s very tough. Playing with Curry, to me would be more fun just because he shares the ball more often.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying and apologies for insinuating anything. All in good fun.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 19, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
Though it’s not a foregone conclusion that Evans can’t become a player that plays for the team. However if he were to do this I don’t think he would be the star that many people are predicting because he will never have Curry’s passing ability. Therefore playing for the team in his case may mean playing off the ball
You cannot build a championship team around Evans
In all fairness, we don’t know that. He’s also very young and it’s unfair to suggest anything like that at this point. He seems like a good kid who wants to get better, so we’ll have to see. He seems capable of being a really good to great player if he puts his mind to it. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility that he will one day be a great player.
As for Curry, like you said, can coexist with anyone. This is why I’m not scared if we land Evan Turner, who is somewhat ball dominant. Turner can play off the ball. And Curry can too.
I don’t think he can coexist with anyone. I suggested that he’s easier to build around and play with. That being said, Monta did have to adjust his game/role for Curry once he realized that Curry is a capable PG. I think part of Curry’s success has to credit Monta too because Curry needed that support. I think it’s easy to say anyone can play with Curry but that’s simply not the case. It’s anyone who is willing and wants to play with Curry. Stephen Jackson was not willing. He pretty much refused to acknowledge his presence on the court.
You have a loooong way to go, buddy.
I believe you’re suggesting that the level of basketball I play is inferior and you have the credentials to make that assumption. I’m totally fine with that because I’m at the point in my life where ego is far less important than burning calories. After two ankle surgeries and more consistent jumper, I relish the “slow guy” role at my local gym.
If you’re up to it, we should hoop it up. I’ll be your Beno Udrih. LOL.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 19, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Disagree, Evans is a rookie who only had one year of college ball, let’s see what he turns into. At the PG I’m inclined to think you’re right, but I don’t see why he couldn’t be an effective wing in a poor man’s Wade type role. He doesn’t distribute enough for a PG, but he does for a wing, and I’m not sure why you don’t think he’ll ever be able to make his teammates better in that kind of role.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
To be fair if he was getting 5 assists a game and around 20 points by playing off the ball on the wing
That would be awesome. It would make Monta seem a poor man’s Tyreke
To be even fairer the kid is EFFIN 20
to put this into perspective, I turned 21 last tuesday, I’m now older than Tyreke Evans. The kid averaged almost 6 assists a game and up until college hadn’t played PG (High School honestly Evans just played Guard, they had other guards next to him but he dominated the ball and right fully so. The kid couldn’t be stopped, he just can’t dunk so they paid no attention to him on ESPN, or make a documentary about him and have that douche Drake make a song for it).
No offense but I doubt anyone on this site (or in the mainstream media; I’m looking at you Hollinger and Simmons) has watched even a fourth of the amount of Kings games than anyone at StR has….so please quit regurgitating this non sense that Tyreke is a ball hog and his teammates will never like him, whereas Curry is Jesus or something.
Gilo, I feel your pain. But Evans is not a PG and will never realize his potential like that. Please understand players like Wade and Lebron are so valuable because they have learned to coexist with other talents over the years. Lebron has been able to play off the ball, move w/o the ball well, etc. Wade has always been a wing player. Evans hasn’t taken that step yet. In fairness, he’s 20. But his ball dominancy tendencies and the way he plays the game and the results being a 3rd pick in the draft when the team with the 1st pick team was in contention of being the worst team ever shows he really didn’t create a huge effect. Is he a franchise talent? Sure. So is Curry. Whatever the ‘mainstream media’ wants to highlight is their opinion and their choice. Quit coming into GSoM venting just becuase you want to. It makes no sense. Evans will always be Evans. Ballhog or True point guard, he’s inefficient and cannot distribute like Curry. That is the reason for this post.
In fairness StR was invited over to put input
the venting is because you guys treat Reke like you know exactly what kind of player he is. Sorry but I’m not going to come in here and throw out my thoughts on what kind of player Curry is. I didn’t watch him as much as you guys. Just like I doubt you’ve watched every second of Reke’s rookie season including the pre season and summer league??? I’m gonna digress and say no you haven’t.
No Evans doesn’t have the court vision of Curry, just like Curry can’t lead the league in attempts at the rim (8.0 per) and makes at the rim (5) due to his freakish strength and body control. Doesn’t mean that Curry isn’t a hell of a player at getting to the rim, and doesn’t have a few tricks up his sleeve to finish there despite his size (i’ve seen him hit some crazy shots, and some clever ones).
My beef is that you guys appear to assume that Reke is a black hole of ineffectiveness, which I don’t get. We won 17 games last year (only 5 more than the lowly Nets did this year) so I’ll take an 8 game improvement on the last year by the way and chalk that up as “some” effect (Tyreke does have 4 game winners so he attributes to at least half the improvement). I’ll take almost winning 10 more games that last year and still getting the 3rd spot in the lottery any day after what last year was like.
No Evans doesn’t have the court vision of Curry?
or maybe he’s just trying to remold it to his vision?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 19, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
From what I've seen, he isn't the best passer
he reminds me of Monta Ellis with better handles and much huger, but is less effective at finishing around the rim.
by Reverend_Randy on Apr 19, 2010 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m now older than Tyreke Evans.
HA… buddy, you have always been older then Tyreke.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
20 is 20
screw the difference in the months, until tuesday neither of us could buy alcohol….whose the all-star now Reke, enjoy your kool-aid and soda, i’m getting a beer.
Relax. I just thought that was a funny line is all.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
Dude I just turned 21 i'm more than relaxed haha
I got your point and you were correct sir, I have always been 5 months older than him, its about the only thing I got on him in life.
Take if from an Ol’ timer. Pace your self (OK maybe after your 25).
Enjoy your B-Day and for the record I have stated earlier in the year that I thought that Evans had the potential to be a top 5 guy in the league. We shall see if that happens but it should be a fun few years watching both teams grow.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
Well, let’s just be objective here. 6 assists a game is nice and all, but it needs context. He played a lot of minutes, and even more than that, had the ball in his hands as the playmaker often. His actual assist rate of 5.6 per 36 minutes isn’t particularly good for a PG. Just to give you a GSW example, Stephen Jackson averaged 6.5 assists per game last year, and you won’t see anyone around here suggesting he should be a PG. Monta averaged 5.3 assists per game this past season, and all of us have given up on him ever being a PG or even an effective primary ballhandler at the wing. The thing all 3 of those players have in common? Lots of minutes with a high usage rate. I’m all for listening what you have to say about it, by all means share your thoughts and observations, but as of right now the stats suggest Tyreke is probably a best fit at the wing in the future….but there’s nothing wrong with that at all.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair him and Curry averaged basically the same amount of minutes per game
Reke with 37, and Curry with 36, and both averaged 5.8 assists a game. So don’t know where the actual per 36 comes into play when he averages 36 per game as it is. Also if they both average the same minutes and the same assists, and both have been the dominant ball handler since 2010 started (assist numbers over the past three months Curry: 7.3, 7.5, 8.1-April was only 8 games; Reke 7.0, 7.5, 5.3) Other than the small sample size of April they both grew numbers wise at about the same, so why is it that Curry is projected as a beautiful ball distributor and Reke is Stephen Jackson and Monta Ellis?
Becuase of the way he plays:
Look for shot, look for shot, look for shot. Oh crap, nowhere to go, better pass it.
Whereas Curry can pass and shoot based on what the defense tells him to do without having his shot cut off.
Like Lebron, you have to guard Curry for the pass first. Many people make the mistake of guarding him for the shot first.
So curry passes up open lay up oppurtunities to make the pass
good for him. Personally the argument that Reke sucks because he only passes the ball when he can’t get to the rim is stupid and inaccurate. First off I don’t want him passing the ball if he can make it to the rim, he leads the league in makes at the rim so keep doing it for christ sake. Second did you only watch him play early on, cause Tyreke knows how to drive and set up people. You can kind of tell when that is his goal cause he keeps his head up rather than going Jerome Bettis mode. Tyreke’s issue right now is combining the two, which he admits himself
Its not that he sucks for that
Its just that he’s being lauded as being a playmaking point guard. Not every pass he makes needs to be a direct assist
He is a playmaking guard
He is the only one on the team that could consistantly make something out of nothing. I don’t think deciding if a guy is a playmaker means only that they create for others. Even if he is the only one that scores, if he created the shot oppurtunity then me made a play. Just sayin.
He is the only one on the team that could consistantly make something out of nothing.
That is physically impossible, everything already exists in some form.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 19, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
So to make it clearer he decides before he drives what he wants to do
If his intent is to set up a teammate or get to the rim, however if the option is get to the rim he is a good distress passer as thats what he has done most his life.
No he doesn't decide
He takes what the D gives him. Its just that there are better ways to involve your teammates consistently
I don’t think anyone is saying Tyreke sucks, or even that it’s a big negative about him, just that it’s an indicator that his best fit is at wing, rather than PG.
So curry passes up open lay up oppurtunities to make the pass
Well, Curry doesn’t create all that many open layups, so not really. It’s one of the things about Curry that’s concerned me since day one….
In the end, they’re just different players – Curry has a shot, great vision, and runs the pick and role and offense well getting others involved, but has a much more difficult time breaking his guy down, getting into the key, and creating openings for his teammates…but when he does get them open, he hits them. Tyreke has a much easier time getting to the rim and creating his shot, and might even get his teammates open more often….but doesn’t manage to hit them nearly as much because his vision/passing isn’t on Curry’s level.
In the end, it doesn’t mean Curry is a better player, just that he’s a better fit in a PG role where his primary job is to create for teammates rather than himself, whereas Tyreke is probably best in a wing role where he can get to the rim and create for himself first, but also be above average for a wing at creating for his teammates.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions
And I don't think you guys realize that all year we have had the debate of what is Reke
we came up with this short answer….he is Tyreke Evans, players like him don’t need one position to stick to, just give him the ball and put him on a court and let the fun begin. I agree that positionality means nothing in which player is better, and when people use the notion that Reke isn’t your stereotypical PG but plays the PG position so their fore he can’t be anything more than a scorer is stupid. If he can be a good distributor he is a good distributor regardless of position. Hell are best passers use to be Vlade and Webber. I don’t care who is creating for who as long as it works.
I don’t care who is creating for who as long as it works.
Agreed, the only thing is, usually you get a lot of that out of your PG. If your PG creates for teammates less than other PG’s, you need to make it up somewhere else. If your PG is Tony Parker and you have Tim Duncan, it works, no doubt. One important point I’ve been stressing lately (about the prospect of drafting John Wall) is you can never have too many distributors, you can only have not enough. Evans at the two and a real PG gives you very nice options to create shots and get everyone involved. Evans at the 1 means you have to make sure other guys at positions that don’t tend to create for others all that much can pitch in.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed and thats why Beno Udrih started the entire half of the season
He can direct traffic (mentored Reke a lot in this during stoppage of plays which was another reason to put Beno beside reke), stretch the defense and is much more aware in setting up teammates (i.e. hitting them in the right spot and at the right time, Tyreke sometimes thought too much on a pass and by the time he gave it up the D was able to get back on their man)
. At the PG I’m inclined to think you’re right, but I don’t see why he couldn’t be an effective wing in a poor man’s Wade type role.
Yes, he’s a rookie. But, remember, other than one season where he had Shaq, what, exactly, has Wade done? Without Shaq, the vaunted D-Wade has struggled mightily with injures, and amassed a 147-181 (0.448) regular season record, and gone 1-2 in playoff series in 3 years. And this is in the East, which has been much, much worse than the West for the duration of Wade’s career.
For instance, in his rookie year, the Heat were 42-40 and earned home court advantage in their series. That year, Boston went to the playoffs with a 36-46 record. The Warriors would have made the playoffs in the East that year. The Warriors! Jason Richardson, Nick Van Exel, Eric Dampier, Trike DunMurphy!
Sure, he’s got to the playoffs and put up impressive numbers, and his supporting cast hasn’t been Kobe-esque, but without Shaq, D-Wade hasn’t done much except put up impressive numbers.
Now… Nash’s playoff record isn’t too
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
his supporting cast
I’m not going to hold his “lack” of team success against him. He’s already won a championship, and pretty clearly carried that team, even if Shaq did provide some help. He gets them into the playoffs every year. He puts up ridiculous numbers. Wade is awesome. Just for some context, let’s look at how his team performs with him compared to without him on the court.
‘09-10 – Outscore opponents by +6.1 points (I’m assuming 82games’ on/off court stats are per 48 minutes) with him on the court, outscored by 6.9 with him off.
’08-09 – +3.3 on, -9.7 off.
’07-08 – -6.4 on, -10.8 off.
’06-07 – +2.3 on, -3.9 off
’05-06 – +8.1 on, -7.7 off
’04-05 – +6.5 on, +6.6 off
’03-04 – +2.0 on, -1.1 off
The evidence says the Heat are a much better team when Wade is on the court then when he’s off it. I really just don’t see the argument you’re trying to make right now. I also think this might be further supporting the notion that Tyreke is a rookie and could have much better days ahead where he does a lot more to make his team better – it took Wade a couple years before the team started playing better when he was on the court.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah... that posted before it was ready... it was weird.
He’s already won a championship, and pretty clearly carried that team, even if Shaq did provide some help.
Shaq’s per game stats for the 2006 playoffs:
33 Minutes, 18.4 points, 61% shooting, 9.8 Rebounds, 7.9FTA.
Within spitting distance of 20/10 on 60% shooting counts as “some help”? You’re telling me that D-Wade would have been able to have that operating space if Shaq wasn’t there? And let’s not get into all the ticky-tack fouls called throughout the series (16.2 FTA/game). Shaq did more than provide “some help.” He carried the team. D-Wade just carried the scoring load because Dallas didn’t want Shaq to beat them… and because Wade got hot at the right time (see: 3 point shooting).
D-Wade may have carried the scoring load, and he was the most obvious contributor, but he certainly did not do it without a lot of help. Wade kept the scoring burden off Shaq so he didn’t get punished too much and could stay fresh, but Wade doesn’t get anywhere without the Big Aristotle manning the paint, forcing help defense to stay put, etc.
Watch this video of game 3. You can see how, throughout the game, Dallas’ big men rarely gave any help defense, and when they did, they only helped halfway because they were so concerned about leaving Shaq (i.e. if Shaq doesn’t have anybody boxing him out, he’s getting the rebound and dunking it). You think they remembered playing Shaq during his Laker days? You bet they do. As did the Nets and Pistons before them.
Notice the times Dallas’ big men either started giving help defense, only to remember not to leave Shaq, or just didn’t even bother helping, leaving Wade an easy layup or a wide open jumpshot (3:30,5:14, 6:20). And Shaq still almost reached 20/10 with that kind of attention? Yeah, he helped more than “some.” You think Avery Johnson was going to bet on Eric Dampier keeping Shaq from winning the game by himself?
Sorry, without Shaq, Wade gets more attention, his man doesn’t jump at fake entry passes (1:10) and Dampier actually cuts him off and properly contests his drives sometimes. Without Shaq, that’s a very, very different series… Without Shaq, Miami plays a very, very different playoffs.
It’s also worth noting that Wade made 14/37 3 pointers that post season. His 3 point percentage was twice as high that post season as it was during the regular season. He got hot. At the right time. Remember Monta Ellis in Feb ‘07? Kinda like that, except this was during May/June… and he’s Dwayne Wade, not Monta Ellis, and was playing with Shaq instead of Andris Biedrins.
Look, Wade is a great player. But he’s not going to carry a team like that ever again, and didn’t really carry the team as much as it appears in the first place. Other than that performance, he’s been a paper tiger, put up great stats, and has always been much better than the rest of his team. But he’s got a long injury list, he plays in a way that he’ll keep getting injured, he doesn’t have great range on his jumper (i.e. he can’t really switch up his game and still be successful), and without Benet Salvatore, a hot hand from deep, and a past his prime superstar big man, he’s not going to beat you.
My point isn’t all that revolutionary: Neither Evans nor Curry is an otherworldly talent like MJ or LBJ, and will undoubtedly need a great big man to succeed.
Who’s going to work better with that big man? A shooter/PG who will surely defer to the big man or a scorer who currently guns for stats (i.e. 20/5/5) and may or may not accept a role that results in lower stats? I’ll take the shooter/PG. He’s a better fit to begin with, and the potential chemistry issues if the scorer turns out to actually be an immature numbers guy puts him over the top. Curry FTW.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Ah, I think the conclusion piece here was very necessary, I don’t disagree with anything you say in those last two paragraphs. It just appears to me that Tyreke’s best role will be as more of a wing primary option along the lines of Wade, so that’s all I was really getting at.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
It just appears to me that Tyreke’s best role will be as more of a wing primary option along the lines of Wade
Anybody who says otherwise either doesn’t know basketball, or is a Kings homer who hopes/expects that Tyreke will be LeBron James, except with better point guard skillz.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
And I still say Wade gets too much credit for that championship...
And won’t sniff another one without a superstar big man leading the way.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
I think a lot of the credit is because of what Wade did in the Finals, specifically. Of course that ignores everything that happened to get them into the Finals…..and yeah, the refs might have called it tight which favored him, but it was a pretty dominant series for him.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 3:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Only made possible because of the attention the defense was paying to Shaq
Maybe a mistake on the part of a rookie head coach who followed this up with another mistake in his first playoff game after that debacle ended… can’t remember what happened though. Something about believing in stuff… though, maybe I’m just getting confused with the Sopranos finale.
If Dallas hadn’t been on full “Don’t let Shaq beat us!” mode, Wade wouldn’t have had full reign to do whatever he wanted. Just imagine what LeBron would do if given that kind of leeway, 50 a night? 60?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Evans is like that guy on your pick-up basketball team. You know what I’m talking about. It’s great to have him on your team because no one can guard him but standing out on the perimeter and running up and down the court for no reason gets pretty boring. And when you’re surprised when you do get a pass and mess up the shot and you feel even more out of place. Okay, maybe that doesn’t happen on the NBA level.
Haha I know EXACTLY what you mean. I personally like the big-ass 40 year olds who muscle you under the basket and talk all day long like they’re Magic Freakin’ Johnson. Dude, you’re not.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Great post UK rec'd
Cant wait to ride that ferris wheel ya got there. That channel train must be doing a great business these days!
by Only In Fairfax on Apr 19, 2010 9:45 AM PDT reply actions
I was hoping he'd read it and give discussion a shot
Wanna see what some sactown people think and see what they might have to add about ’reke
Well “beer man” obviously has better things to do. He’s probably out cow tipping in celebration of his “got you” post.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Apr 19, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
You probably will get comments from some of the more "even minded" Sactown fans UK.
Of which there are many. I hope that our “beermen” dont miss-represent our fans on the other sites.
by Only In Fairfax on Apr 19, 2010 11:04 AM PDT reply actions
Very enjoyable read. Pretty fair and balanced showing little to no bias towards either side. I wish I could write and post quality like this. :) I really don’t care who wins rookie of the year at this point, I just want Curry to be the better player in the long run. Just for the record, I was bashing Curry in the beginning of the year because of his slow start and was moaning about not getting Brandon Jennings. Oh how wrong I was! Can’t wait to see what he can do next year with AR and Wright healthy!
Too bad no STR folks commenting yet, except Beer Man who is just a troll.
REC’D.
Yes there are pros and cons of both types of passes, from the perimeter and in the lane
http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=1698
This guy makes a good point about why lebron tends to stay on the perimeter or drive into the lane.
It just mentions how he gets to survey the whole floor from the perimeter. This makes him much better at spotting mismatches, reading defenses and finding open men rolling to the basket.
Getting into the lane is a great why of finding the killer pass for the assist, but not the best way to facilitate the offense, read the defense and get everyone involved
Hi! Kings fan Here..
and like a lot of Sac fans I was a Warrior fan until the Kings came to town. I watched the W’s in the Era of Wilt Nate Rick Al,,,,,etc.
Now on to the dumbest debate of the year…Reke versus Curry (By the Way, let me say great post)…I give ROY to Reke for season long consistency but Curry stats have been slightly better since January…we are having a raging debate over who gets a trophy this year, but I think both sides muat concede the 2 best rookies were in NorCal. The award is noce for the winner but neither side will trade their rookie for the other, so we all should just smile contently.
Who will be a better play? Curry is more skilled now, but the only way we can know that answer is to look into Heart and work ethic, and the answer to that will not be answered for 2-3 years…everything else is wishful thinking.
I have watch about 10 Warrior games and think Steph is amazing..but I want to put out one last observation. Teams plan their defenses on how to stop Reke, he never gets to move without the entire defense shifting to stop him…he is always doubled. Reke is guarded by the other teams best player Battier Artest Kobe ect. If Reke develops a shot
of NBA average, he will reach the level of top 5 player in this league…if not he will remain just really good. He has potential to be a first team defender in this league, he gets his steals by picking his man and not by guarding passing lanes….and while I agree Curry is a much more creative passer (passes that lead a man to score versus Reke who is a drive and kick passer) advanced stats say Reke has a higher efficiency rate on passing but like I said my eyes say no and I trust them more.
Curry could and up a 25 and 10 guy. Reke a 25 8 and 8 and a first team defender. Lets just hope both guys reach their max and we have 5 years of GS and Sac competing for the Western conference title…Now that would be serious fun, and who really cares about a damn trophy except for the Championship one?
Hope I didn’t offend anyone, just an old guy offering his thoughts.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Great input
I am excited to see GS and Sac competing for the western conference title instead of just the best in Norcal, especially when we are both crap. I think its going to be a lot of fun competition between the two of us for years to come, it’s funny because I remember just a few years ago when it was Ellis v Martin for MIP. These awards are pointless awards, I just hope that our players feel the same way. Still, I enjoy the rivalry, I can remember having some crazy games with Sac Town for the past 10 years.
I think that Tyreke and Curry will both remain competitive regardless of who wins ROY, and in fact I’m hoping that Tyreke does win so that Curry can work even harder to compete. This off season has the potential to create two all-star caliber players next year, and I think the draft will be very interesting considering we are both in a very similar situation…and were last year as well.
One point to note is how much better Sacramento’s first half of the season was in comparison to the second half…why did that happen? Martin came back and struggled with Tyreke, but is that the sole reason? Even after he was traded, the King’s were awful. The Warriors on the other hand were plagued by injury all season, which sucks because we’ve all been waiting to see what our team will look like, since it’s been two years of this injury BS. We still have no idea how our team will look and with the looming trades, probably will never know. Despite this, the second half of our season, particularly towards the very end, went very well for GS with Curry running the offense. Everything ran smoother and we won more games. I think that is definitely saying a lot.
So just in the past 3-4 years its been
Ellis v Martin
Randolph v Thompson
Curry v Evans
I think Ellis v Martin was answered correctly with Ellis being on top. Randolph v Thompson and Curry v Evans are definitely questions that won’t be answered in a short amount of time.
I think Ellis v Martin was answered correctly with Ellis being on top.
Not sure where you get that. They both regressed this season, but I think Ellis regressed a bit worse. And at their peaks, I think Martin may have been a bot more valuable. Martin’s a much more efficient scorer and turns the ball over less; Monta’s more of a true combo guard with at least something resembling passing skills; Monta seems much more active and aggressive on D; they’ve both regressed from pretty good to pretty bad as rebounders. Overall, I think that’s close to a push.
Evans v. Curry: IIRC, that’s been covered on this board in recent days. Extremists and homers on both sides notwithstanding, that’s also close a push.
If any of those three “battles” has a clear winner, it’s Randolph over Thompson, imo. Randolph, even though he’s barely learned the game, is a better rebounder than JT, equal as a passer, a slightly more efficient scorer, more prolific scorer, and much better shotblocker. And is trending up, while Thompson has trended laterally, or slightly down. And maybe most significantly … is three full years younger.
Realistically, in terms of likely wins produced going forward, I’ll take Curry, Martin, and Randolph. But since Monta has a very exciting while Martin has a deathly boring game (and seems like a douche to boot), I’ll take Curry, Monta, and Randolph.
Or, best case scenario: Curry, Evans, and Randolph, all of whom have legit star potential. Monta, Martin, and Thompson are pretty much destined to be roster fodder.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think Ellis regressed. I don’t see where you get that from.
Monta Ellis 2007-08 >> 2009-10
4.7 >> 3.5 rebounds per 36 minutes
.580 >> .517 true shooting %
2.0 >> 3.3 turnovers per 36 (while gaining only 0.9 assists per 36)
+4.6 >> -3.2 adjusted plus-minus
“Regressed” probably isn’t a strong enough word for what he did this season, relative to his ’07-08 peak. He damn near fell off a cliff.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, I can cherry pick stats too
Monta Ellis 2009-10 >> 2007-08
.338 >> .231 3pt%
5.3 >> 3.9 Assists Per Game
2.2 >> 1.5 Steals Per Game
25.5 >> 20.2 Points Per Game
“Progressed” in some pretty mainstream statistical categories, I’d say. Yes, your stats are much more sophisticated, but do they really prove anything more than the classic statcats?
"That’s Chavey; he’s a good athlete. He can play anywhere … except second base. He’s not that good." -M. Ellis
by eshock on Apr 19, 2010 4:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
but do they really prove anything more than the classic statcats?
Yes, yes they do. Increasing your stats simply by playing more minutes doesn’t actually help your team win. Efficiency, per 36 minutes…..they are a much better indicator of how production helps a team win. Monta was a more useful player before – this year he played much worse, he just got the chance to shoot and create a lot more often, but because he was much, much less effective, the team was worse because of it.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
.338 >> .231 3pt%
This is already included in TS%. Remind me who’s cherrypicking here?
5.3 >> 3.9 Assists Per Game
I already noted the concurrent uptick in assists. You didn’t note the rather huge increase in turnovers. And to use “per game” numbers when he played 3.5 minutes more this season than in ’07/08 is somewhat misleading.
2.2 >> 1.5 Steals Per Game
Or 1.9 to 1.5 per 36 minutes. His personal fouls also rose slightly from 2.3 to 2.6 per 36. Neither of these differences carries much weight relative to his huge drop-offs in rebounding and shooting efficiency.
25.5 >> 20.2 Points Per Game
Or 19.2 to 22.2 per 36. A somewhat significant increase … if we’re talking about a guy who scores efficiently. Since Monta was below NBA average with respect to scoring efficiency, and well below many of his teammates (Morrow, Williams, Curry, notably) the fact that he shot more often than in ’07/08 is mostly a negative.
your stats are much more sophisticated, but do they really prove anything more than the classic statcats?
I don’t know what you mean by “prove,” but the numbers I posted strongly indicate that he regressed badly; whereas the numbers you posted, in absence of context, indicate … very little.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Efficiency is not a Panacea
I agree that efficiency of an NBA player is a great indicator, but it is not the sole measure of usefulness or winning. The 2009-10 Warriors were a terrible team. You should not let Curry’s historic performance as a PG completely devalue a useful, All-Star-worthy performance by Monta Ellis.
He played so many minutes. He was a true Warrior. I think he exemplified great leadership with these traits. Your efficiency stats do not take this into account.
"That’s Chavey; he’s a good athlete. He can play anywhere … except second base. He’s not that good." -M. Ellis
but it is not the sole measure of usefulness or winning.
Actually, since possession (by their very defintion) alternate, the team that makes the most efficient use of its possessions wins. That’s true to the point of being a rule.
Anything that a player does that adds to his team’s offensive efficiency is good and anything that detracts from his opponent’s efficiency is good. Things that makes his team less efficient do not help winning. But perhaps you’re valuing something other than wins.
If anything, its more of the same from Ellis, definitely not a step backwards unless you believed he was going to take the month he hit 60% from the field and repeat that for an entire year, aside from that, he was the same if not better than his previous seasons, although not living up to anyone’s expectations…but doesn’t mean much since our expectations for him were far too high, especially while already pretty much knowing what he was
he was the same if not better than his previous seasons
This is false. See above.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
He was worse
that mid-season All Star push was an absolute joke.
by Reverend_Randy on Apr 19, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it’s probably important to note that Ellis’ “regression” came in a healthy season where he was expected to be a bigger part of the offense, whereas Martin’s came with a new rookie PG who doesn’t pass well, a trade, and an injury plagued season. That gives me more confidence in Martin, personally…..
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
but of course I believe the answers are:
Ellis
Randolph
Curry
by Essential on Apr 19, 2010 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn't really help the discussion to respond to hopelessly homeristic posts
with hopelessly homeristic posts.
by Reverend_Randy on Apr 19, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Umm ok
didn’t know I was helping a discussion here….but thank you Rev Randy I feel like I see the light now.
Kings fan back
I think Martin over Ellis on size alone, and is better on the main skill a 2 needs , shooting.
Using the Curry argument, one year Martin was at 48 40 and 90 (Bird only) until he got dinked up with 7 weeks to go. But yes, no clear cut winner.
Potential Randolph, accomplishments Thompson. We will have to wait and see if Randolph has the drive or if its just Nellie screwing with a player as he likes to do.. 2 more years we will have an answer.
Curry/Evans anybody who says they know who the better player will be in 2 years that isn’t named Curry or Evans is just an asshole stating his wishes as fact.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
accomplishments Thompson
If by accomplishments, you mean……well, I don’t know what you would mean, because Randolph is a more productive player. Rebounds more. More active defensively (see the huge difference in blocked shots and steals). Scores at a higher rate. Thompson has a bit of an efficiency advantage for their careers, but Thompson got worse from year 1 to year 2 and Randolph got better….not a good sign for Thompson. Frankly, the Thompson/Randolph comparison isn’t too close, Randolph is the better player and prospect, at a much younger age.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry
All I meant was JT 1849 1243 217 Randolph 883 576 91.
Everything else is not an accomplishment, its coulda shoulda woulda.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Can you please provide some context to your numbers?
See, this is where you’re wrong (bold numbers are superior):
JT 364 55 1 29385
AR 5490 2 78 22409
Randolph beats JT across the board!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I will disagree
If you’re talking production per minute/play I will not argue…but that to me falls under coulda shoulda woulda not accomplishments. Like I could have got better grades if I studied harder. I’d have more points if I had more minutes, if I wasn’t hurt , If my coach liked me, etc etc etc. …Not my point. Accomplishments to me means what went into the score book.
That’s it…if you want to argue something else, its a different argument and I will concede victory to you,.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Sorry...
I’m just not buying your “accomplishments” line of discussion until you put some units behind those numbers. Until then, here are the only accomplishments that matter to me:
JT 364 55 1 29385
AR 5490 2 78 22409
Booyah! You can spin your numbers all you want, but these are the ones that matter to me!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Have fun with them
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Seriously dude
You need to read better. I asked you what your numbers actually meant by:
All I meant was JT 1849 1243 217 Randolph 883 576 91.
This means NOTHING without context. 1849 what? 883 what?
Now, I’m a smart guy, so I eventually gleaned that you probably meant career totals and verified that, but seriously… you’re not contributing anything unless you actually write coherent statements and arguments.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait, are we really discussing career totals in simple aggregates? I know of a player with 3,233 points, 2, 174 rebounds, 404 assists, 303 blocks, etc…..
I wouldn’t dare suggest Mikki Moore is better than Randolph or even Thompson, though. Minutes are important, racking up stats simply because you’ve played minutes doesn’t actually help your team win – someone has to play those minutes. It’s how productive you are during those minutes that actually helps teams win. (In Mikki Moore’s case, the answer is extremely not productive)
(I probably should have replied to one of ElRonToro’s posts instead of DFiB, oh well)
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
It’s that silly. Though, I think clearly my numbers are more telling. Randolph gets 5490, while Thompson only gets 364. It’s no contest.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and by the way
Good job of cherry picking numbers. Assists? Ignoring any semblance of rate statistics? Good job there. Hey, Jamal Crawford is a better rebounder than Jason Thompson:
JC: 1832
JT: 1243
HAHA! Your center is a worse rebounder than one of the worst rebounding players in the NBA!!!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, I’m just impressed that you took the time to figure out what he was talking about. Not only that you verified it.
So on that you get a rec (on the post figuring it out).
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
You guys really need an education
If you followed the context the numbers maje sense…it wasn’t Lost. Nothing cryptic.
I also assumed anyone with an 8th grade education would not think that comparing careers of unequal seasons really is anything but off topic and ignorant.
We were comparing Randolph and Thompson.
When they give MJs career accomplishments they don’t add that he would have 6000 more points if he hadn’t missed the games with injury and his year and a half off.
Hey…most of you guys here are great, but Dubs is not the brightest guy on your sight. I’m out and heading back to StR where I already know who to ignore,
Thanks for the invite UKWarrior, your’s was a noble attempt to bridge the divide,
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Right
so comparing a player with 157 games under his belt to a player with 96 games under his belt makes perfect sense to you…really thought that one out
But proclaiming the player who has only played 96
to be better than the kid with 157 games is thought out?
Not JT’s fault he is durable. You can’t say AR had a better year than JT. Yah he put up the same kind of stats in 9 less minutes, but he played 40+ games less that JT. If Jt only had played the first 30 games his numbers would look like All-Star like.
So you can sit here and say you think Randolph
had a better year this year and is the better player based off a 33 game season??? Dude whatever your smoking get me some for tomorrow.
nope
not what I’m saying at all, I’m saying that Randolph is a better player than Thompson based on the games he did play instead of attempting to inflate numbers using raw stats.
61 vs 51 games played
is different than 33 vs 75. Randolphs averages are over a small sample size, id call it a draw or just leave it if i were you
ill leave it with a
we’ll see buddy. have fun at StR
Not knocking AR just he didn't even play half the season
At the beginning and end of the season JT was a double double machine, during the middle not so much, so If i just took out the middle then I could say JT had a better year than AR. Using this season is inconclusive is all i’m saying.
You could cherry pick sub samples, or we could just look at career stats and see who’s been a better player. Randolph produces at a higher rate. That makes him a better player. It’s pretty simple. :)
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
You won't find many Kings fans that disagree with the points
We don’t want Anthony Randolph (or I haven’t heard of anyone saying so). So he’s safe.
As far as who I’d rather have? JT. He plays more games. Even if he isn’t the “potential” producer AR is, I’d rather have JT. He’s less of a headache and less of a potential issue. I wouldn’t build any front line around AR or JT to begin with so the issue is really moot IMO.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
If you have a real reason to think JT is going to be healthier than AR going forward, then that might be a worthy point, though I’m not sure how valid that is. As for the headache/potential issues…..eh, it’s not something I’m too concerned about. I actually do see AR as a piece that belongs as part of the nucleus for a quality team – with his rebounding, his defense, he’s already a useful player, by all accounts he works hard and he’s shown flashes of an improving offensive game that should come around in the future, throw that on with his age and athleticism that really makes the sky the limit for him, at least physically……he’s still a piece I very much want in the Warriors future.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions
If you have a real reason to think JT is going to be healthier than AR going forward, then that might be a worthy point, though I’m not sure how valid that is.
JT has played 157 games to this point. AR has played 96. A 61 game difference is huge over a 2 year span. You bet I’d rather have JT than AR.
Looking at the DRB% last year and this year, there isn’t much difference this year than last year between JT & AR. (Although AR has better% in DRB.)
Look at the Pace Adjusted 40 stats, DX has AR’s rebounding at 10.6 and JT’s at 10.5.
As far as offense, I could care less about Ast%. (For anybody really, but especially true of big men in general. I do not care for the assist stat, and consider it the worst stat in sports.) The FT drawing is what it is,
So right now, even though JT’s stats may be inferior in a few area’s to AR’s, I’d rather have JT cuz he’s healthier. That’s just as important to me as the “potential” production any player can put up. You’ve gotta play to produce, and right now AR doesn’t play enough (or enough minutes) to show me that he is anything more than a tease.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
JT has played 157 games to this point. AR has played 96. A 61 game difference is huge over a 2 year span.
I completely get that point, and if I knew going forward that there was going to be that much disparity in PT between them, I’d probably go for the one that plays more. The question is, what does that past PT tell us about future PT? I don’t have an answer to that question, but I’m pretty confident it’s a lot more involved then “he played more in the past so he’ll play more in the future”. Even if we determine there is a difference, how big would we expect it to be going forward?
Curious about rebounding% numbers – I’ve never really used them, so I don’t have a good feel for what a “big” difference is – on a per 36 basis, a couple rebound difference is pretty big, what about in ‘s? Randolph’s career defensive is 2.4% better than Thompson, and his offensive rebound% is .4% better….as important as rebounding is, that seems like a meaningful difference to me?
I do not care for the assist stat, and consider it the worst stat in sports
Ha, not much of a baseball fan? RBI’s, runs, errors and fielding percentage…..ugh.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Assists in basketball & baseball are very different.
I like baseball, but do not care about the way baseball games are scored. The assist stat does not quantify much, IMO, for anybody.
As far as difference in reb%, I don’t consider it a major difference when you consider the significant difference in pace between GSW & Sac. (There is a significant difference.) That’s why I put the pace adjusted per 40 that DX used.
If AR had 2 years where he put up monster rnumbers, than maybe I might disagree. I wasn’t a big fan of the guy coming out of LSU, and nothing I’ve seen since (which is little). What I have seen is not enticing enough.
It’s just a matter of opinion. I’m happy with JT. I wouldn’t be with AR. That’s what I know.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
If we’re talking about percentages, pace wouldn’t matter?
I also think you’re going a bit overboard with your anti-assist mentality. It might not be a great stat, but good players who create shots for their teammates do end up getting more assists, so at least comparing guys in similar roles it does a pretty good job of showing which one is getting more/better shots for his teammates….
I’m happy with JT. I wouldn’t be with AR
Based on what? It’s one thing to say “I’m glad we had JT the past two seasons instead of AR”, but you make it sound like you would rather have JT going forward. Why?
by Missing Barry on Apr 20, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m happy with JT. I wouldn’t be with AR.
You misspelled, “If the Warriors had Thompson and the KIngs had Randolph, I’d be shamelessly pimping Randloph and acting like I wasn’t a shameless pimp. And I’m a boring troll with poor analytical skills. And gonorrhea.”
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 20, 2010 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions
No Sleepy
There’s a reason I’m not a Warriors fan.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Uh, yeah, there’s a reason for everything.
Are you suggesting that if the two players had been drafted by opposite teams, you’d say you were unhappy with Randolph and wished you had Thompson instead?
If this were what you were suggesting, I’d tell you you were totally full of it and ask you to stop insulting people’s intelligence.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 20, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually Dubs knows how to comprehend stats.
You on the other hand…should go back to StR.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
He suggested I didn't have an 8th grade education
Does that mean that my BS in Engineering doesn’t mean anything? Guess I better go back to HS again…
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 20, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Look, since apparently some Kings fans are incapable of coming up with a real argument, I’ll even pitch in to tell you the argument you should be trying to make. That arguments is as follows:
You should try to show that JT has accumulated more value thus far in 2 seasons than Randolph. On a rate basis, Randolph is a better player (which means….well, Randolph is a better player). The only thing you can say now is that, because JT has been more durable, he’s been a more valuable player thus far for the Kings than Randolph for the Warriors. To show this you have to demonstrate that the gap between their PT more than makes up the gap between how valuable when they play, and you also have to show that JT is a positive for the Kings when they play, which I’m not even sure is true….
Not like I get why you would even make that argument right now anyways, because as I said….Randolph is still the better player, with more potential, who’s younger…..so yeah, Randolph > JT in any relevant argument, unless you really care who’s been more valuable to their terrible team over the last two years (and one might even argue that being more valuable the past two seasons has been a bad thing, lotto balls baby!).
As for the sample size note….well, I’m not sure what you’re driving at. Should we be regressing Randolph to the mean more? In what categories? How does that result in JT being a better player?
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
anybody who says they know who the better player will be in 2 years that isn’t named Curry or Evans is just an asshole stating his wishes as fact.
Ummm… LeBron James?
Seriously, and this is not just because you’re a Kings fan:
TRY TO WRITE WITH SOME SEMBLANCE OF COHERENCE
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
ok remember I'm old, but you lost me
How did LJ get into this discussion?
All I meant was its ok for Curry to think he knows he’ll be the best player the same as its ok for Evans. For the rest of us to state that we know which will be the best player and state it as a fact is just ignorant.
I reread my sentence and it still makes sense, so work on your reading skills.
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Read this statement:
anybody who says they know who the better player will be in 2 years that isn’t named Curry or Evans
I know the better player in 2 years that isn’t named Curry or Evans. It’s LeBron James!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
You misspelled
“Brandon Jennings, Darren Collison, Eric Maynor, Blake Griffen, or any number of other players in the draft who still might turn out really, really good”
:-)
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Eric Maynor is the best basketball player the galaxy has decided to birth to us
He is just waiting till the world needs him the most to rip off his cape and show us who he really is…..the Master of the Universe….the Mayans even predicted this, December 2012 isn’t the end of the world, but rather the beginning of Maynor’s reign over us all
“Eric Maynor, 2nd best PG in Richmond”
Well, at least that phrase applied last year.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Or Kevin Anderson, reigning A-10 player of the year. A-10 > CAA. :)
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
The same Kevin Anderson
Who was dominated by McConnell and Dellavedova in the tourney this year?
Go Gaels.
I don’t want to talk about it. FLKJDSLJF Samhan.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 5:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry again
I just assumed the “they” I referred to would be the 2 we were talking about and not the entire league…I will attempt to add context to all future comments in case anyone forgets what the discussion was.
Maynor rules!
There are some guys smarter than me, some guys better looking, I take comfort in the fact that there is no guy that is both.
Finally someone with some sense of the world we live in
Its Maynor’s world and were just a part of it
By the way, I saw Maynor up close a couple weeks ago…..the dude is tiny.
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
He can't be all powerful and be a physical specimen too
People would be afraid of him, this way he goes unnoticed until its too late for his enemies.
By the way, what’s with the Sactown love for Maynor? I’m not seeing a connection that would breed that….
by Missing Barry on Apr 19, 2010 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
hahaha
it started in the preseason when the Jazz announcer proclaimed Maynor to be a better Rookie than Reke, since then it has tsunami’d into a beast of its own. Maynor> God> Chuck Norris> Jesus> Reke/Curry> BJennings> LBJ> In-N-Out Cheeseburger
Because the proper response to anybody suggesting to anybody that some other player is better than your baby is to endlessly make fun of that person
Good job guys. You stay classy.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I do live in San Diego
so I do know something about being classy….you stay thirsty my friend cause beer is not a good idea for the dim witted.
I do live in San Diego
so I do know something about being classy
lol wut
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Apr 19, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought SD was renamed to
Whale’s Vagina.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Wut?
WUT? WUT? what more do you want out of me man, a link to the netflix page of the god damn movie, I mean come on, JESUS FRANK!!!!!! J-E-S-U-S FFFRRAAANNKKK!!!!
fake anger
For he dude not getting the Anchoman references. I’m assuming he wanted me to yell from the continous lol wut
and the Jesus Frank is from Its Always Sunny in Philadelphia…Danny DeVito is a crazy dude.
Because the proper response to anybody suggesting to anybody that some other player is better than your baby is to endlessly make fun of that person Good job guys. You stay classy.
Exactly. We mock idiots who stay stupid things.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
who say^
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
And anybody who says that anybody is better than Tyreke is an idiot?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 19, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Eric Maynor and the random dude he isn't even involved in the joke anymore
but helped spawn it really would like to thank you for taking the time to defend their names here on GSOM.
Classy scale: Dubs fan in Boston>Gilo424>Eric Maynor
And anybody who says that anybody is better than Tyreke is an idiot?
Yes.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Pay no attention to the fanboy.
(Recall a year ago he was still defending Spencer Hawes and lost touch with reality at the mere notion that Spencer sucked and would likely continue to suck.)
Pay no attention to the hack
Who can’t clearly comprehend my opinions.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I understand snotty elitist opinions.
I just don’t bother to care about them.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
I understand snotty elitist opinions.
I just don’t bother to care about them.
Right, because
anybody who says that anybody is better than Tyreke is an idiot?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 20, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, from what I’ve read from you do not understand. You certainly didn’t a year ago when you were defending Hawes here;lacking an actual argument, decided that berating me with f-bombs was your only recourse at StR as well.
But it’s your prerogative to remain in the dark and attack the messenger rather than deal with a message.
Thank You for illustrating my earlier point that you don't get what my actual opinion is.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Thank You for illustrating my earlier point that you don’t get what my actual opinion is.
You have a point? Other than that you’re a shameless fanboy homer who gets bent out of shape hearing anything bad about your team’s players from fans of another team, no matter how reasonable or truthful it is. The difference between your behavior here and at StR is that you can’t try to silence the with the barrage of profanity that usually accompanies your dismissals.
by jae on Apr 20, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
oh and I drink my beer with my pinky out
double classy
by Gilo424 on Apr 19, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
WTF does that have to do with my pinky being out while I drink Beer
Joke fail…..dane cook> Dubs fan in Boston
dane cook>dubs boston> dubs hoops>eric maynor> Dos Equis.
And Dos Equis is really good. Althought Hollinger in his latest article wrote about it being a ball hog.
OMG
Dane Cook is not funny at all.
Well, maybe 15% of his material.
Mitch Hedberg > Dane Cook.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Yeah
I think that was the point.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 20, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
It was Mitch is better R.I.P.
if it makes you feel better you are ahead of one hack, and the other is a sarcastic example so there is that going for it.
Seriously terrible joke fail
Gilo, please take me out of that comparison list with those two hacks.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 20, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Thought I already posted this but good job UK
your first attempt was decent, and better than most articles linked from here to StR, however the persistance in getting more info from StR is more than respectable considering the amount of trash you had to wade through to get that info. Nothing beats a good ole Nor Cal internet. So i’ll end this on something we can all agree on……EFF SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA (Except SD we be cool like that)
Again though much Props UK. Good work man.
+1
good work UK, and yes, cheers to hoping norcal got a winner in the future
I got a +1 from a Dubs fan
I think my resume for the UN is almost complete, now to Silver Screen and Roll
Lol wut?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Apr 20, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions
Tyreke is not Lebron
I think that comparison being made by the Tyreke Homers to Lebron James is rediculous. Lebron’s athleticism allows him to do things that Tyreke (and 99%) of NBA players can only dream of. Tyreke will never be able to play defense like Lebron, block shots, dunk over people, and take over games like Lebron. Tyreke is a me first player—think of Corey Maggettee with better passing skills. Heck, he’s not even as althletic is Maggettee. Tyreke is a BELOW THE RIM 6’6 player. A better comparison is Joe Johnson (only Joe Johnson shoots the outside shot) because Lebron is a freak of nature (6’8 with speed, power, size, and can jump out of the building). To rephrase the question Nash vs. James, it is more like Joe Johnson vs. Nash. I take Nash in a heartbeat. But just my opinion. I’ll let you guys decide. Who would you have on your team if you had to choose?
Joe Johnson or Steve Nash?
P.S. Potential is a dangerous word. Many players are still living on potential (think Tyrus Thomas). To say that Tyreke Evans has potential to shoot better is like saying Beidrins has the potential to shoot 75% from the free throw line underhanded…. Not saying Tyreke will not reach it, but potential must be taken into context with caution..
I agree with you on the most part
However I put the lebron v nash argument there to try and show some of the arguments the sactown people were putting forward, so the article was less biased.
I understood your point
I was refering more to the sactown people (Tyreke homers) rediculous clame. I thought that your article was objective and presented good points. Great article. I typically just like to read what people say, but Sactown’s comparison to Lebron is rediculous and misleading. I don’t have a problem with him winning rookie of the year—he put up good numbers—but I’d rather have Curry. If both were available when the draft occured, knowing what we know now that the season is over, hands down Curry. Curry makes everyone around him better. Curry has a more complete game is understands the game better. He is a future all star at point guard. Tyreke is a two guard. It is way harder to find a point guard than a two. Even Nellie, along with most NBA coaches agree—point guard and a center are the two most difficult to find. And the Warriors just found one. As a player, I would rather play with Curry. Tyreke is a me first player—which is fine—but he is basically a bigger less athletic Monta Ellis. Can play the point, but more of a natural two. Only (again) Monta is a better outside shooter. Again, Tyreke’s jump shot and outside shot is comparable to Corey Maggettee.
To Sactown folks, I don’t mean to burst your bubble but Tyreke is nowhere even close to Lebron. I don’t feel like he is a superstar. He’s a good player, but not a superstar. In fact, he is a Corey Magettee with better passing skills. Both can’t shoot the outside, but have phenominal abilities to penetrate the lane and get to the free throw line. Not a knock on either players. As much as people knock Magettee, he is a good player, maybe not for our system, but for someone else.
In short, if Evans wins ROY, it would not bother me (though as a Warrior fan, I hope Curry gets it). He deserves it as much as Curry (both have had great rookie years). But I’m glad we have Curry. Curry will be in the same class as Nash, Paul, D Williams (guys that are true point guards and make their teammates better). Now Evans will be a very good shooting guard. But those are easy to find. We have a good one now in Monta Ellis. Even if we lost Monta (and I hope we don’t because I’m one of the few that he and Curry can be the best back court for years to come), he is a lot easier to replace than Curry. Point: Evans is a lot easier to replace in the draft than Curry.
No offense but this
Point: Evans is a lot easier to replace in the draft than Curry.
Franchise Players aren’t easy to replace in the draft, you won’t find many Evans or Curry’s coming through the draft. They are both beyond special. I agree that Tyreke isn’t Lebron but common a Corey Maggette who can pass??? Reke is better than Maggetter right now and he is a rookie. Tyreke gets compared to Lebron because he is so much bigger and stronger than most guards, and yet still has the quickness (he has all 6 gears, he just keeps it in 3rd most the game, till he rips down a board and then just runs by all 5 guys on the team ala Lebron). He doesn’t have the court vision or creativity as Lebron nor the charisma. I’ve said this before Tyreke in a few years will just be known as Tyreke Evans not the next anything (same with Curry for that matter, he isn’t Nash and won’t be the next one, he is and always will be Steph Curry, and thats saying a lot more than calling him the next whoever).
Oh and he obviously doesn't have the hops
but Reke has some tremendous hang time, and a lot of his ability to get to the rim is based on his quickness and great footwork (He has a variation on the Euro Step, looks more like a juke move in football but in slow motion, that is devastating and allows him to avoid charge calls) as well as his tremendous body control. He makes contorting your body and dodging defenders in mid air look pretty easy….but he will never win a dunk competition and for this will never get the respect he deserves, flash means more than substance in this NBA
but he will never win a dunk competition
Why not? Jrich won them and look how he sucks?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 21, 2010 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Why won't Tyreke win one?
cause he is the guy who will make layups look cool again. He isn’t a leaper.
Jrich is good and underrated, not sure what you meant with that.
Jrich is good and underrated, not sure what you meant with that.
Jrich must have been the devil otherwise why would they throw him off a playoff team just as it was getting its Itsh together?
I can’t belive Tyreke can’t dunk, I’m more inclined to think he just doesn’t need to dunk?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Apr 21, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Tyreke has hops
Just not explosive hops. It’s why you’ll see him go for a layup in traffic, but dunk when running.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Or dunk when out in the open floor with noone around.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

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