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2010 NBA Draft Lottery Odds Redux: Pies for Everyone!

Also see: TODAY'S 2010 NBA Draft Lottery = 2010 NBA Playoffs for Golden State Warriors

=======================

Still two weeks before the draft lottery, aka "Our Playoffs" — May 18, mark your calendars — but I thought now would be as good a time as any to start trying to visualize our odds. If this graphic is worth a damn, it should speak for itself, so I'm going to throw it out there without further ado. (Further ado below, for people who enjoy hearing me babble).

Piesfinal_medium

(click on graphic for larger view).

Scattered thoughts...

First off, thanks to genesic, whose excellent diary on this subject was the, er, genesis for this one. Without his mad math skills, I don't think I would have been able to figure out how the three ties (GS/WAS, PHI/DET, UTA/LAC) affected the overall odds for everyone. (Two minor corrections for you, genesic: you transposed Philly and Detroit in your table — Philly won their coin toss battle — and missed a decimal place in your listing of Detroit's chances of landing #8).

The other inspiration for this was a board game I used to play somewhat fanatically as a kid called All-Star Baseball.

3599cont_medium

via www.boardgameswiki.com

Origdisc_medium

via percontifamily.com

Setting aside the game's (rather major) flaw that it failed to factor in pitching, I always thought it was really well-designed and fun. Each player was converted into a disc – basically a pie chart of their career statistical output, with numbers representing various results (1 = Homerun, 5 = Triple, 10 = K, etc.) You would stick the disc in the game-board, and spin a little metal arrow to generate a result. In retrospect, the disc was a masterpiece of graphic design, in that once you knew what the numbers represented, you could get a really good overall sense of how valuable a player was — their ratio of out-to-hit, homer-to-single, etc. — at a very quick glance. Before the era of SABR, the discs gave my brother and me a keen sense of the value of the base on balls: bigger BB segments meant smaller out segments, which meant greater likelihood of extending innings and piling up runs.

My favorite part of the game was always draft time, when my brother and I would lay all the players out on the floor and pick teams for the upcoming "season." Because of the graphic simplicity of the pies, you could look at all the players and make snap global judgments about who was better than whom. The game's more sophisticated counterpart, Strat-o-Matic, never really captured our imagination, in large part I suspect because its use of spreadsheet rather than graphic chart didn't allow for this kind of elegant visual comparison.

Back on topic ... I'm curious to see whether people find this chart illuminating or confusing compared to just looking at the spreadsheet that genesic provided. One of my graphic design idols is the cranky genius Edward Tufte, whose handsomely illustrated books have kind of become the bibles of good information design. One of the things that irks him to no end is what he terms "chartjunk" — basically, misplaced use of cheezeball graphics where the visual aspect adds nothing, or even subtracts, from the data presented. The poor graphic designer will frequently try to "spruce up" information that would be clearer as a simple, unadorned list of numbers.

Personally, I think looking at the odds in this form allows a depth, breadth, and speed of understanding that a simple spreadsheet doesn't. I think that the spatial comparison of odds reads more clearly than a numerical one; that the hot-to-cool color range gives a quick-and-dirty sense of "good pick" v. "bad pick;" and that the pie chart shows clearly that each team's odds at picking in various slots, must, by definition, total one (which seems obvious enough, but some GSoM old-timers may remember some rather heated debates on the subject). Anyway, I'm curious to hear what others think. Are the pies any clearer than the spreadsheet? Less clear? Funner and more colorful, but not really any different?

So ... what can we see from these pies that might not be quite as obvious in numerical form? Well, for one thing, in a draft that looks to be about 5 or 6 studs deep, our Warriors look rather well-placed. If you compare our current position to the #8-12 range where we habitually pick, the contrast is stark. Imagine sticking us in a spinner, All-Star Baseball style, and spinning away. Chances of landing on picks #1, 2, 3, or 4 seem pretty decent, right? Now imagine doing the same for Indiana or the Clips ... much less decent. Indeed, for a team like Indiana, it wouldn't be at all surprising to spin 20 or 30 times in a row without hitting lotto. For those who like to imagine the Warriors have been cursed in the lottery, I hope the pies from #8-14 open some eyes. We're not cursed; we've just tended not to tank hard enough (or if you prefer, suck badly enough) to have realistic odds at a lottery pick.

Looking a bit more closely at our chart —

Gswbig_medium

— I think another thing the pie does a good job of highlighting is that, while the #5 pick is our most likely single scenario, it's still not overwhelmingly likely. Indeed, our chances at picks #1-4 marginally outweigh our chances at #5. Number 6 is worrisomely big, but Number 7 is pretty reassuringly small [knocking wood furiously].

All in all, I think it's a pretty tasty-looking pie, especially when you consider how easily we could have lost the epic coin toss v. the Wiz; or the fact that by point differential, we were only the 9th worst team in the league (much better than the #9 seed Clippers, for example). Yeah, it might have been nice to have slid into Sacramento's spot, but, hey ... they richly deserved their delicious pie by sucking even worse than Steph and the D-Leaguers. I think in the end we managed a pretty neat trick by closing the season on a semi-cheery note while still avoiding too many meaningless late season wins. Bravo, team! Now let's get a new owner and knock one out of the park on 18 May.

Poll
Which could you least live without?
Cookies
60 votes
Cake
42 votes
Ice cream
84 votes
Pie
86 votes

272 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

Comment 112 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Rec'd

Come on now, you’d make a list of circular, tasty goodies and leave out Pizza? What kind of Sleepy are you?

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 2, 2010 8:26 PM PDT reply actions  

Haha, I was thinking more the “sweet” category. Is ice cream really circular?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 2, 2010 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess, if you look at it from above. It’s really spherical, unless you go to Baskin Robbins. God, they suck at scooping.

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 2, 2010 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Voted cake.

Love Cookies, pies (mmm apple with ice cream).

I’ve started to convince myself that Aminu would make a positive impact on this team if we were to fall to 6th. At 5th give me the passing wizard from Georgetown.

I hope we don’t have to discuss them come May 18th though.

"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."

by kenntoe on May 2, 2010 8:27 PM PDT reply actions  

At 5th give me the passing wizard from Georgetown.

Really? I like Monroe, but from what I’ve seen, I think I prefer the shooting/rebounding/defense wizard from Syracuse. Seems more suited to Nellieball pace, more of a freak athlete, better motor, more NBA-ready, and (anecdotally) a bit more “driven.” Stretches the floor with his perimeter shooting, rebounds like a beast for a 3, and won’t steal minutes from Wright and Randolph. My dream starting 5…

Curry
Iguodala (acquired for Monta+Morrow)
Johnson
Randolph
(Healthy) Biedrins

Bench: Buike, Wright, Turiaf, ReggieWTF, Maggs.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

No offense, but Monta and Morrow for Iguodala would be a bad trade. Hypothetically, you need to trade Monta for a big man. To most teams, Monta isn’t exactly an up-and-coming star, but having Iguodala doesn’t really solve much, unless you really want an athletic forward playing guard. On top of that, I’d start Randolph in a year or two only after he bulks up. Randolph, right now is a foul machine and a defensive liability. I know, sorry. Just saying, I doubt that will be our starting 5.

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 3, 2010 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

No offense taken. I’m not suggesting Monta+Morrow-for-Iggy would be any kind of cure-all; at the same time I think adding a 2 with Iggy’s skills would add much needed toughness, length, rebounding and D to our rotation. You can call him an “athletic forward playing guard” but he’s probably a better ballhandler and passer than Monta.

I think you have to be realistic about what kind of player an overpaid, undersized shooting guard can fetch, even on a good day. Monta’s almost certainly not going to get us a big man that’s any better than Anthony Randolph, no matter what other talent you staple to him (unless you want to “throw in” Curry or Randolph, which would probably be unwise).

Yeah, a guy like Monta probably won’t fetch someone as good as Iguodala, either; but from Philly’s perspective … Iggy is a couple years older than Monta, marginally less “exciting” in ESPN-highlight-reel terms, and has a slightly more burdensome, escalating contract. They haven’t gone anywhere with Iggy as their salary centerpiece, so may be in the mood for change for the sake of change. And Morrow, one of the two or three best perimeter shooters in the NBA, is a pretty solid “throw-in.” He instantly adds a dimension they’ve been missing since the departure of Ashton Kutcher.

Yeah … I still wouldn’t do it if I were them. From our perspective, I don’t see how turning Monta-and-Morrow into Iguodala is anything but a huge win.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've considered this trade quite a few times before...

and in the case of adding a top F or G in place of Monta, Iggy would fit quite well. Ideally I’d want to add Rudy Gay while playing our current platoon of Azubuike and Reggie 2, with either backing up Gay @ 3. But the same could be done for Iggy, having him @ 2 adds a much better defender who could produce at close to a similar rate in our system.

And I think Philly is up for a big change at this point also.

by esco41510 on May 3, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rudy Gay is one of the worst defenders in the league for his size. I’d stay away.

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 3, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rudy Gay is also primed to get a raise far in excess of his production, to be heralded as an “up and coming star” for a year while a minority of fans note that his scoring isn’t really terribly exceptional coming at strictly average efficiency and isn’t all that exceptional per minute even ignoring the efficiency issue, that he rebounds like a 2 but his passing is substandard for anything save a post player (it compares unfavorably to Maggette’s). In a couple of years once the “shiny shiny new” wears off and the team still underwhelms with Gay, a majority of voices will start badmouthing his defense, rebounding and passing and say it was foolish to give up for the rights to overpay Gay, not noting that exactly those faults they see in him were known and voiced by a few before the acquisition.

by jae on May 3, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

+1

An overrated player, and a guy who’d be horribly redundant on this team. If we end up with Rudy Gay, we’ve done something very, very wrong.

Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis

by onlxn on May 3, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Monta Ellis and Maggettte

for

Rudy Gay (S&T @ $45m/5y), Jaric $7m expiring, and first-round picks in 2010 and 2012.

Boo-yah!

Thing C

by markdash on May 3, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome for us, because we get out of 2 contracts, and acquire picks, and sign Gay to a semi-reasonable contract. However, I see Gay getting a 5 year deal around 12-15 million a year.

Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!

by GovernorStephCurry on May 3, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

If we end up with Rudy Gay, I will sacrifice a puppy.

by Skrewfish on May 4, 2010 3:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree. He’s another example of a high volume scorer who has flashy dunks, who is considered a star, and will be paid a lot of money on this assumption. The scary thing is that, many teams are considering giving him and Joe Johnson near max to max salary, when neither is much of a player who helps his team win.
I’m pretty certain Dave Berri will write a piece soon about the scary possibility of one of these two, hemorrhaging their teams salary caps for the next 5-6 years.

Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!

by GovernorStephCurry on May 3, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sounds like one Jason Richardson.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on May 4, 2010 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Heathen!

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

-gasp-

Gov, I have a recommendation for you:

bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on May 4, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah … I still wouldn’t do it if I were them. From our perspective, I don’t see how turning Monta-and-Morrow into Iguodala is anything but a huge win.

That’s true, but Ellis does have some value. Some teams need scorers, efficient or not, badly. I’m not saying by any means that Monta would improve any team. I doubt they would take him, but it’s a nice thought…
But that would upgrade our defense, by a lot. However, if we land a player like Evan Turner, Iguodala would have to move over to the 3.
However, I think there is a small chance that we could land a Brendan Haywood or some sort of similar player for Monta. Haywood is going to be an FA, and if we can get Monta/Maggette off our backs quickly, it would mean we have enough space to resign Morrow and sign a low-key FA. That is, assuming we don’t get horrible contracts in exchange.

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 3, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Odds don't matter

We will be gifted a top 4 pick by Stern as his welcoming gift to Ellison!

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawkGSW on May 2, 2010 8:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Looks like there's something wrong with NJN?

    Their green segment should be smaller than MIN’s since they have more lotto balls.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 2, 2010 9:02 PM PDT reply actions  

NJN’s total shot at #1-2-3 is still bigger, though. The Nets do have a (slightly) higher chance at popping #4 than Minny (36% to 32%), but Minny also has a 12.5% at #5 pick, where the Nets’ chance at #5 is 0%.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 2, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Nets do have a (slightly) higher chance at popping #4 than Minny (36% to 32%)

 That doesn’t make sense? NJ is one slot higher than MIN to start so they are likely to stay one slot higher at the end?? Are you sure this guy didn’t bust some numbers on his spreadsheet???

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 2, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Of course it makes sense. They have a higher chance at #1, #2, #3, and #4. This makes sense since they have more lotto balls. They have a much lower chance of #5.

Thing C

by markdash on May 2, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

They have a higher chance at #1, #2, #3, and #4.

but don’t the lower teams have a better chance of leapfrogging MIN than they do NJ? Seems like it’s more likely for NJ to stay above MIn at all spots?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 2, 2010 10:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hm, I think you may be confused by the fact that the system isn’t a completely random one, Skep. The #4 slot is the Nets’ guaranteed fallback position if all the lotto spots are taken by other teams; whereas the #5 seed is the Wolves’ guaranteed fallback position in the event of same. So even though the Nets have a worse total chance of being leapfrogged by other teams, their chances of being #4 end up slightly higher.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 3:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

...

Ugh, I’m probably only confusing the issue by trying to explain it. There is no error, Skep. These are the actual odds. Check it out.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 5:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

There is no error, Skep. These are the actual odds. Check it out.

 Haha, I wasn’t questioning your graph, just the guy who made up the odds :>)

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 3, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

So even though the Nets have a worse total chance of being leapfrogged by other teams, their chances of being #4 end up slightly higher.

 Ok, I think I get it now. NJ has the most lotto balls so they are more likely to get #1 than they are #2, than #3, than #4 but the lower teams have a better chance of moving and knocking NJ to #4 than #3, or #2 . So their higher raw chance of drawing #1 gets modified to make #4 slightly more likely.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 3, 2010 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Basically, for New Jersey to fall to #4, they have to be leapfrogged at every lottery pick. For Minnesota to fall to #4, New Jersey has to win one of the lottery slots, and Minnesota has to be jumped by two other teams. It is less likely for Minnesota to get passed than New Jersey – for example, for the first pick, there’s a 25% New Jersey wins, and a 75% chance someone that’s not New Jersey wins. In that 75% chance, New Jersey will always get bumped down. However, from Minnesota’s perspective, New Jersey winning a lottery spot does not bump them down (and in fact, New Jersey winning the first pick is the second most preferable scenario for Minnesota, because that means that Minnesota is now most likely to win the second pick). Thus, just for this first pick, there’s a 75% chance New Jersey will slide, but only a 55.1% chance Minnesota will, since the bulk of the combinations are held by these two teams.

by genesic on May 7, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

What he said

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 7, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Isn’t that messed up? I mean, it’s hard to balance the fairness with the possible tanking but…jeez.

by caseycheesecake on May 13, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

The basketball gods love us. That is why they screwed us in Denver, so we could get a higher draft pick! They love us after all!!!!!

Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!

by GovernorStephCurry on May 2, 2010 9:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Good stuff. Tufte would be proud.

This is your best pie chart since… well, since that first pie chart (a true classic).

Seriously though, I think you did a great job with these. It’s a good way to soak up the data and you can instantly and effortlessly get a good perspective on any team’s chances.

The GSW pie is rather comforting to look at. Here’s hoping we are feasting on a nice slice of cherry pie the night of the lottery. Though frankly I’d be pretty happy with lemon meringue, banana cream or key lime.

"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."

by olympicmike on May 2, 2010 9:22 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Here’s hoping we are feasting on a nice slice of cherry pie the night of the lottery. Though frankly I’d be pretty happy with lemon meringue, banana cream or key lime.

God knows what kind of poisonous fruit is at the #7 pick. Or 8-14, for that matter

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 2, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

My only quibble is that a few of the sections of the GSW chart are overlapping
  1. overlaps with #6, #5 with #3, and #3 with #1…

;-)

Best graph evar.

Always good to see somebody who cares about making their data more readable and understandable as opposed to more eye catching, busy, and convoluted.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on May 3, 2010 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

Looking a bit more closely at our chart —

Zoom AND enhance?

Only a matter of time before we find the killer.

Did Morrow get ejected???

by DrManatee on May 2, 2010 10:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Ok..I'm thoroughly confused!

How on earth could Pie be leading? I mean really people….Pie and Cake can be substituted for one another, while cookies serve as a GREAT back up for either. But Ice cream!?!? I mean…ICE CREAM! Imagine a world w/ no Ice cream for a minute?………Sad isn’t it? There’s plenty of pastries to go around. You can put ice cream on a pie, you can make an ice cream cake, you can even put two cookies together with ice cream and get an IT’s-IT’s! Lets’s get REAL!

On a side note…thanks for the pie chart Sleepy, great info as usual!

by esco41510 on May 3, 2010 8:31 AM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Word. To say that any baked good beats ice cream is false. ;-)

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

+1

I thouroughly agree – ice cream should be winning in a Mudslide!

by Hoopachoo on May 3, 2010 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

I can’t think of any way that any of those foods could beat ice cream!

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 3, 2010 8:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ahhh... but you forget the mythical ICE CREAM CAKE!!!

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on May 3, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just skimmed your post, but clearly this falls under the "cake" category...

Thus, your vote would be “cake”… not death.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on May 3, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

You can put ice cream on a pie, you can make an ice cream cake, you can even put two cookies together with ice cream and get an IT’s-IT’s! Lets’s get REAL!

He didn’t forget it…but come on, no ice cream?

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 3, 2010 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

How on earth could Pie be leading?

cause these are …….pie charts?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 3, 2010 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Next up… ice cream charts!

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

p.s. I think the graphic above is an excellent example of what Tufte calls “chartjunk”…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

uhm, what is strawberry and vanilla? I get cherry, but…

by LarryLegendofOracle on May 3, 2010 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think

 the percentage of cherry is off? where’d you get the raw data?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 3, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Isn’t vanilla the most popular flavor on the planet? Suspect data.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on May 4, 2010 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Cherry represents the 9/11 commission report.

It cannot be questioned!!!!!!!!!!!

bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on May 4, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

My only problem with this well-reasoned and researched fanpost is that the pies are not nearly intuitive enough.

Just looking at one of them, say MIN’s, there’s nothing in my brain that immediately says “red is good! blue is bad!” unless I tell it as much. In fact, as a Cal grad, my brain tells me exactly the opposite!

I think it might be instructive to try such a chart with gradiations of the same color, rather than using different colors. That way, you would say “bright = good, dull = bad.” This might be more intuitive, although I suppose we would have to see it to know for sure.

Also, rhubarb.

Thing C

by markdash on May 3, 2010 10:21 AM PDT reply actions  

Gradations of a single color is a great idea. Indeed, using subtle variations rather than shocking contrasts is one of the things Tufte generally prescribes. I may try another along those lines. I just thought the spectra looked pretty…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don’t correct my spelling. It sickens me.

Just kidding, it’s so strange for me to spell something incorrectly on purpose that it’s sort of shocking. Who do you think you are, spelling words better than I?!?!

Thing C

by markdash on May 3, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just be glad I didn’t point out your dangling modifier:

as a Cal grad, my brain tells me exactly the opposite!

I mean, in a sense, your brain is a Cal grad…

My brain was too focused on sports, movies, and chicks to get a degree there, but somehow they gave my body one just for showing up…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

Spelling is one thing, grammar is another. I consider myself to have extremely good spelling, however my grammar is certainly a work in progress.

Maybe it’s something you can help me with.

ducks

Thing C

by markdash on May 3, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ending sentences in prepositions is something up with which I will not put! ;-)

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 3, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s something that even I make a fuss about.

Thing C

by markdash on May 3, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Reminds me of the old joke about the dude from rural Alabama (or remote location of your choice) visiting Harvard campus.

Alabama guy, approaching Harvard student: “’Scuse me sir, could tell me where Widener Library is at?”

Harvard student, sniffing: “At Harvard, we don’t end our sentences in prepositions.”

Alabama guy: “I’m so sorry … could you tell me where Widener Library is at … asshole?”

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

aww, well as long as it looks pretty.

I approve.

"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."

by kenntoe on May 3, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rec'd Sleepy thx for the visual aid.

Like my kids numbers flip around and scrample in my head but my+kids visual comprehension is off the charts—family of designers. This really helps a lotta people “see” the probabilities!

by Only In Fairfax on May 3, 2010 11:29 AM PDT reply actions  

The charts are very helpful to me

It’s much easier for me to process because it illustrates proportion, which is more familiar to me than % or decimals. It’s also a lot easier, IMO, to refer back to quickly. With tabular information, I’d have to “re-teach” myself the contents of the cells, whereas my memory of the charts stores and recalls a lot more quickly.

I had never heard of Edward Tufte but I am constantly bombarded with or asked to create superfluous charts and graphs that do not add any value to the presentation of information. It’s almost viewed as incomplete work without graphics.

Which book would you recommend as being most practical for “business”? “The Visual Display of Quantitative Information” sounds the most appropriate but is it too dated?

As an aside, his website isn’t a great example of the optimized visual presentation of information. If nothing else he should reformat the upcoming events at the top or partition it somehow.

I give pressure the reach-around.

by bloodsweatndonuts on May 3, 2010 2:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Hey BSD … The Visual Display of Quantitative Information isn’t dated at all; it’s probably as timely now as when it came out. I consider it a must-read, for pretty much anyone, given the importance of visual communication in our world. His other books — Envisioning Information, Visual Explanations, and Beautiful Evidence — are also great reads, beautifully designed and fun to flip through. And for anyone who has always loathed PowerPoint but can’t quite put their finger on why, his screeds against “The Cognitive Style of PowerPoint” are a revelation. He partially blames the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster on Powerpoint. Recently, his views were vindicated by a U.S. Marine General who said, “PowerPoint makes us stupid.”

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Space Shuttle Columbia.

But that was an interesting read.

Thing C

by markdash on May 4, 2010 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

He actually talks about both as examples of poor data presentation:

Information designer Edward Tufte has used the Challenger accident as an example of the problems that can occur from the lack of clarity in the presentation of information. He argues that if Morton Thiokol engineers had more clearly presented the data that they had on the relationship between low temperatures and burn-through in the solid rocket booster joints, they might have succeeded in persuading NASA managers to cancel the launch. Tufte has also argued that poor presentation of information may have affected NASA decisions during the last flight of Columbia.

Link.

But yeah, it’s the Columbia disaster where he points the finger specifically at Powerpoint.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope the Warriors can leap into the Top 4

Wall, Turner, Cousins, and Favors make me happy… Wesley Matthews not so much.

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by FLAxwless on May 3, 2010 3:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Yah. Him too!

Stupid Jazz.

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by FLAxwless on May 3, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great job Sleepy!

i rec this fanpost and later will log in from my ‘Dubz Fan in Boston’ account -just to rec it again :D

also i want to add my contribution
while i think pies are great they don’t give you whole picture (more just sense how hot or cold your team is) -i tried to create some whole picture (using same hot and cold color scheme)

from WTF to FTW!

by Lat We N Trash on May 4, 2010 10:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Awesome, Lat … a very interesting variation on the theme. You nailed the true spectral colors much better than I did. A couple of additions to yours that I think might better convey the idea:

1. A row of numbers across the top
2. Some narrow vertical lines to separate the columns. Tufte cautions against overuse of heavy gridlines (in Excel, for example, they tend to obscure the actual data) but in this case I think a grid of boxes will help show the color bits as ratios of a whole “pie” (though in this case, the pies would be bricks … or brownies). Personally, I tend to like grids where the lines are white against a background of neutral grey or beige, as they compete less with the data. But grey or black hairlines work too.

Not sure what it says that the odds of various teams getting the #6 pick form the shape of the Empire State Building. I’m just glad the Warriors are way up on the spire of the building, like King Kong…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's pretty cool...

For some reason I think it would be easier for me to read if you flipped it on its side. Maybe that’s just the way I see things though.

"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."

by olympicmike on May 4, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

damn

and i was wondering why it doesn’t look very well
and found out that i was operating with wrong data (in DET case)

then i found some data more close to reality
and made new brick wall

from WTF to FTW!

by Lat We N Trash on May 5, 2010 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

t would be easier for me to read if you flipped it on its side

  haha looks like detriot has a hard on for someone in that draft?
    I liked the other way better, it looked more “outer space” themed?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 5, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Whatever you did, it seemed to really excite Detroit.

I give pressure the reach-around.

by bloodsweatndonuts on May 5, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

They don’t call them the Pistons for nothing.

Looks like they may be targeting Kelly Bundy at #14.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 5, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

LOL.

Lat’s graphic depicting the Pistons’ level of excitement appears to have been deleted.

“bandwidth exceeded”?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 6, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lat’s graphic depicting the Pistons’ level of excitement appears to have been deleted.

that’s the most desperate censor I’ve ever seen :>)

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 6, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think you nailed it. Some of the color bars seem a little narrow to me — the Nets percentage at #1, for example looks more like 20% than 25%. But overall, especially if viewed at a slightly bigger scale, I think this illustrates the odds super clearly.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

(Oh, and I also like that you switched the color bars from centered to flush left).

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Some of the color bars seem a little narrow to me — the Nets percentage at #1, for example looks more like 20% than 25%

it’s true -but i wanted to keep picture bright (even if brighter space gives visual illusion about proportions) here is bigger version

from WTF to FTW!

by Lat We N Trash on May 4, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

WTF, that's beautiful !!

      You can sell that to the NBA for their website.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 4, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

This would make a lovely tramp stamp.

Derrick Coleman is my power animal.

by bloodsweatndonuts on May 6, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

we get the left front thigh?

   Hope that represent Cousins? Seems a little small though? Don’t tell me it’s another skinny tweener guard?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 6, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Excel

takes second place in my top3 of worst widely used softs (just behind Word) and mostly just because of grid -i’ve got feeling that this prog was made by nazis just to torture people

making this visualisation i found myself thinkig how to show players value in CMYK (if we’d take 3 different values we could use RGB standart)

from WTF to FTW!

by Lat We N Trash on May 4, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

p.s. You should totally claim the user name “Dubz fan in Boston” (with a Z) just to mess with people…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 4, 2010 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm stupid because I don't understand this graph.

Am I the only one?

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by FLAxwless on May 5, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Am I the only one?

 The first one Lat put up without numbers is kinda hard to get but look at the second one with the pick numbers along the top and it become beautiful in it’s execution.
   The meatloaf one is an instant classic.
  If you don’t understand the Kelly Bundy pie chart you have my sympathy.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 5, 2010 9:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Best pie chart ever!

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on May 4, 2010 8:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Where did you get your data?

     That green segment looks a little too small?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 4, 2010 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Haha, awesome. And then there’s this oldie-but-moldy…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 5, 2010 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

The winner

 is the big red one unless you can make an all Kelly Bundy all the time pie chart?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 5, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Certain information has come to light!

Please disregard my previous comment! While this post is most appreciated, I’m afraid it has become moot as I have developed new analytical technology I am calling the “Venn Diagram” for reasons I refuse to discuss. So, without further ado, I present the 2010 NBA draft lottery odds:

bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on May 4, 2010 7:28 PM PDT reply actions   2 recs

Bimbo,
you are one interesting guy.

Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!

by GovernorStephCurry on May 4, 2010 10:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

:-P

That chart may have the highest WTF value since Baumerworld left the board. Rec!

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 5, 2010 6:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Baumerworld

   Haha, I saw his dog SteveCurr on tv at the last suns game and thought of old baumerworld, wonder who he’s entertaining now?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on May 5, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

What is not to get about a venn diagram??

My chart humor is lost on you analytical types…

bring back warriors roundtable! warriors weekly is a pretender to the throne of warriors themed TV shows!

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on May 5, 2010 5:13 PM PDT reply actions  

Awww. No way dude. I love your Venn diagram.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 5, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

REC

Though you seem to have forgotten the overlapping part when I’m wearing assless chaps.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on May 13, 2010 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

LOL. If this weren’t a family show, I’d update the graphic to reflect this excellent observation.

It’s a shame, ’cos the diagram I was envisioning would have taken the form of assless chaps.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 13, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lottery positions and 2nd round choices

1- John Wall PG—— Dexter Pittman C
2- Evan Turner SF—— Dexter Pittman C
3- Wesley Johnson SF—- Dexter Pittman C
4- Demarcus Cousins C—- Quincy Pondexter SF
5- Derrick Favors C—- Quincy Pondexter SF
6- Greg Monroe C—- Quincy Pondexter SF

I really really really hope we get a top 4 pick

by RUN EMC on May 6, 2010 11:13 PM PDT reply actions  

I love it

I’m in grad school in physics, and one of the things that was heavily emphasized at my undergrad institute was communicating your results, through public speaking and presentations and good visual presentation of information. A lot of scientists are just plain bad speakers, so it’s an issue I care a lot about. I’ve been trying to find time to get into a class in the design department about presenting information, and Tufte’s Visual Display of Quantitative Information is sitting above my desk as I type this.

The best description of Tufte I’ve come across is here: Obama appointed Tufte to the stimulus monitoring panel, which to a segment of the internet is like hearing Admiral Ackbar is the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

by genesic on May 7, 2010 1:45 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I don’t get the love for ice cream. Totally overrated. I like soft serve…but everything else is pretty “meh”. Pie takes the cake, whether we’re talking pumpkin, apple, apple cobbler/crisp (which might fit the “pie” classification), or whatever else…

by Missing Barry on May 10, 2010 10:16 AM PDT reply actions  

Next time you’re at Arco, get the Vanilla and Snickers soft serve. $4.75. I get it every time. Even when I reaaaally want Nachos.

by caseycheesecake on May 13, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is a fantastic chart. I reposted it at The Dreamshake.

I hope you don’t mind, but if you do, just let me know and I’ll take it down immediately.

"Each in turn... volunteered his suggestions, his invaluable suggestions."

The Dreamshake

by Xiane on May 16, 2010 11:41 PM PDT reply actions  

Thanks, Xiane! I’m totally flattered. By all means leave it up, and feel free to spread it around…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on May 17, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

You've gone viral ;-P

"I could be chasing an untamed ornithoid without cause."

by olympicmike on May 17, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sleepy, this is on Rufus on Fire. nice work.

Stephen Curry is the future.
We need to save this planet. Go Green, recycle, ride public transportation, use cantines. Anything you can do!

by GovernorStephCurry on May 17, 2010 12:35 AM PDT reply actions  

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