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REAL-IZING Randolph **ADDED 2nd BONUS SECTION**

REAL-IZING RANDOLPH

Anthony_randolph_thumb_400x501_11972_medium

Skies the limit?



Anthony Randolph.

 

Bring that name up amongst Warrior fans and you would hear a wide range of opinions. Some would proclaim the lanky and explosive forward is destined for multiple trips to the All*Star Game and others would say we should send him packing for Kevin Love or the chance to draft Cousins, Favors, Johnson, or Monroe. So who is right? There is no doubt that Randolph is the key to the Warriors future but is it grabbing rebounds and blocking shots with the Bay Bridge across his chest or is it as a poker chip in Riley's game versus other GMs? In order to answer this question we need to get a REALISTIC picture of where Randolph is after two seasons and what he can become.

Star-divide

 

The following study is far from a scientific because it is only meant to be a quick and dirty attempt to put the prospect of Randolph realizing his potential into perspective. I think the one thing every Warrior fan can agree on is that Randolph is a rebounding, shot blocking, and pocket picking monster so this article will only look at the offensive end. If you don't agree check out this Basketball-Reference (B-R) link regarding the defensive stats AR puts up. There are only 14 other players who have averaged TRB% >15, BLK > 4%, and STL > 1.5% and among them are players like The Dream, The Admiral, Big Ben, and Camby. His defensive stats are a great base to build from defensively but what about the offensive end? Those who say Randolph is destined for greatness state that Randolph ONLY needs to decrease his turnovers, drop dimes like Odom, develop a jumpshot like Amare, and a post game like KG in order to become a stud. Well to me that sounds like an awful lot to ask and expect from one player.

So let's take a look at each facet of Randolph's offensive game and where it ranks compared to similar players.

 

Turnovers

Randolph 's Rookie+Soph TO% vs Others

The link above shows that compared to the first two years of other big men (6'9" or taller) who played at least 82 games combined in their first two seasons and had similar Usage Rates (USG% 20-25) Anthony Randolph's 13 TOV% ranks 45th best out of the 122 players eligible. So historically AR is actually starting at a decent place regarding his TO compared to other big men. This is surprising because one of the negatives we often hear about Randolph is that he makes so many bone headed decisions but the data shows otherwise. However, most of his boneheaded decisions are choosing to attempt a jumpshot instead of driving or passing which doesn't count as a TO. In the end it looks like Randolph is in the middle of the pack turnover wise compared to other bigs...at least he's not starting so far behind.

However.... maybe in this one case a HIGH turnover rate is more desirable?

Hollinger on 2009 ROY

"Westbrook also is the youngest of the three, the best defender and the only one who had to change positions upon arriving in the NBA. All of which suggests he's only scratching the surface of his potential -- as does the fact that he has a higher turnover ratio than the other two, which, in a paradoxical twist of logic, is actually a good thing for a rookie. Historically, those with high turnover rates have had much higher rates of improvement in subsequent seasons. "

If you believe Mr. Hollinger or have read the study he alludes to then maybe Randolph's 45th ranking is not as good as we hoped. A quick look at what the list brings is pretty interesting:

TOV% less than Randolph

 

Dirk

Bosh

Aldridge

Chuck V

Z-Bo

Donyell Marshall

Ilgauskas

Brad Miller

Al Jefferson

Okafor

TOV% greater than Randolph

Pau Gasol

McDyess

Yao

Amare

Kemp

Webber

Odom

Moses Malone

Camby

Kenyon Martin

Take from my quickly cherry picked list (or look for yourself at the link) what you want but those who had a higher TOV% seem to be a stronger group compared to those who had a lower percentage than Randolph. Oh yah and one player who had the exact same TOV% is Mehmet Okur. Not exactly franchise big man we imagine AR to become. I haven't read the study or seen the data so I don't know how much stock to put into it, but I found it interesting.

VERDICT: Randolph is not as TO prone as we thought compared to other big men and decreasing his TO is a realistic possibility, but maybe his ceiling isn't as high anymore?

 

Passing

I love the idea of a Point-Forward as much as Nellie but is Randolph that player?

Randolph AST% vs Others

I think those who see Randolph's ability to dribble the ball so fluidly automatically assume he can become a point-forward. However, dribbling is only half of the equation... you still need to be able to SEE the floor like a point guard. Compared to the same peer group used for turnovers, Randolph ranks 62/125 so he's pretty much average at passing. However, just for fun I compared Randolph's Assist Rate and Turnover Rate (using the Hoopdata formula) to some of the game's best passing big men. Take a look.

Arar_medium

While Randolph's turnover rate (TOR) is about the same as those guys, his assist rate (AR) is the lowest of the sample. He is so far behind point-forwards like Kukoc or Odom that even if you doubled Randolph's AR he would still fall short of Euro Magic and Mr. Kardashian. If we set our expectations lower and just hope AR becomes a "good passing big man" like Webber and KG, Randolph is still starting way behind those two after their sophomore seasons. Hedo may seem misplaced but people forget he is 6'10" and has the skills that Randolph supporters say Anthony will eventually develop (jump shot, passing, etc) but when I watch their offensive games they look completely different. However, there maybe some hope that Randolph becomes a competent passer because Divac, one of the greatest passing big men, was almost as bad yet he still bumped his career AR to 19.29! So the skill can be developed even with such a poor start.

VERDICT: I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Randolph to become a point-forward and I find it unlikely he will develop into a passing big man but who knows? He was born in Europe like Vlade afterall.

 

Scoring

We'll breakdown scoring in a variety of ways: TS%, FT%, 3 PT%, Close eFG%, and jump shot eFG%.

First let's compare AR overall scoring efficiency by looking at his TS% compared to the same group of big men (6'9" or taller) with at least 82 games played in their first 2 years in the NBA and usage rates between 20-25%.

 

Randolph TS% vs Others

As you can see Randolph starts out way at the bottom with his 51.2 TS% ranking 90 out of the 125 big men. Antonio McDyess had the same TS% and those who had lower TS% are limited offensive players like Drew Gooden, Kenyon Martin, Camby, and Okafor.

 

Randolph FT% vs Others

One of the great parts about Randolph's game is that his FT% is above average for a young big man in the game. After two years he ranks 34th out of 125. Not too shabby especially since FT% tends to improve.

 

Randolph 3pt% vs Others

If Randolph is going to be the SF of the future he will need to develop 3 pt shooting to stretch the floor and he'll need to devote major time as his 11.1 three point % ranks 70 out of the 90 big men. To his credit AR has only shot a total of 9 threes for his career.

 

Now let's look at specific parts of scoring ability. This data was compiled by comparing Randolph to players using data available on 82games.com which went back the furthest regarding close and jump shot shooting percentages (since the 2002-2003 season). The players were picked as they have their rookie AND sophomore seasons on 82games and they represented the "best" jump shooting big men or post player. Again not scientific but quick and dirty.

Many like to say if Randolph develops a post game he will become an effective scorer. Let's take a look where he is compared to other big men by looking at their "close shot" and "blk'd" shot percentages. Now close shots doesn't exactly mean Randolph has a back to the basket game but it can show us if he can score efficiently in the paint.

Arclose_medium

NOTE: The 1st year and 2nd year numbers are reversed for ALL players. So 2nd year stats are really first year stats for this table!

In Randolph's rookie season he was well below the eFG% average of the sample group and had the highest percentage of "close shots" blocked at 22%. However, in his 2nd season AR was able to become a more effective finisher down low and also decrease his blk'd shots to a very good 14%. In fact his 54% close eFG and 14% blk'd shots compare favorably to veteran players who are known as good finishers.

EDITED

Thanks to Homer but all the players 1st and 2nd year stats on the chart are reversed. Randolph was actually more efficient his rookie year and his blocked shots were less. This actually makes sense to me as one of my biggest peeves with Randolph is that he is a soft finisher. Most of his trips into the lane end up with Randolph in some of the most awkward layups as he contorts his body to avoid contact. From someone with his length and jumping ability he should be attacking the rim and not relying on finesse. Is this reason for alarm? I don't think so but just another thing AR needs to work on. David West's eFG dropped slightly and Bosh remained the same and both are great finishers now.  Also, while Bosh's eFG stayed the same his eFG% was actually lower than Randolph's and Amare went from 44.6 to 44.8 so he end up around the same spot in his sophomore season.

So how does Randolph's jump shot stack up to the big men considered to be good jump shooters?

Arjump_medium

It looks like Randolph will have a long way to go to improve his jump shot. Of the 9 big men in the sample only Amare, West, and Boozer failed to hit 40% eFG jump shot in either their rookie or sophomore seasons. Fortunately for Randolph, Amare and West are two of the best jump shooting big men in the NBA and both were actually WORSE than Randolph in their rookie years. However, both also had much larger improvements between their rookie and sophomore seasons. So it looks like that while most big men demonstrated the ability to shoot the jumper early on, there are those who significantly improved their jump shots.

VERDICT: Randolph is already a decent free throw shooter and finisher down low but in order to increase his TS% he will need to put in tons of work into improving his jumper.


Conclusion

The point of the article is not to say Anthony Randolph will or won't improve in each of these categories but it was to put his offensive performance into perspective. As it stands Randolph's strengths on offense are his low TOs, high FT%, and ability to finish inside compared to his peers at the same point in time. What's funny is that the aspects of his offensive game that are needed to become a small forward/point forward, passing and outside shooting, are his biggest weaknesses and are actually very poor compared to his peers. If he is to become an All-World forward he will need to put in enough work to become the exception rather than the norm considering his Assist Rate and Jump Shot eFG%. Do you really want to depend on a player significantly improving his two weaknesses in the NBA?

If anything this study proves that Randolph should be groomed as a power forward rather than a perimeter oriented SF. He has the defensive side covered and his strengths on offense: ability to finish at the rim and good FT% are exactly what great PFs have and since he has a solid foundation he is more likely to reach more effective levels. His ability to handle the ball will be more effective at the PF spot where he can take bigger slower guys off the dribble to make use of his close range effectiveness and free throw shooting. Compare that to the SF position where smaller, quicker players will cut off his path to the basket and make Randolph settle for a jumpshot.

After the study it looks like there are still more questions than answers. Randolph clearly has his weaknesses but as bad as they are there are others who have succeeded in improving them. We now know where Randolph is at regarding his offensive game. We now know that others have worked on those same weaknesses and improved but they seem to be the minority. Just be cause we know it can be done does not mean it will be done.

Now the ball is in Randolph's court. Is he willing to put the work in? Will the coaching staff put him in the best position to utilize his talents? Is he willing to do the dirty work inside? Etc.

Before you finish I have two more questions for you:

Knowing what you know now.... what is Anthony Randolph's upside player wise? Is he still a lock for Multiple All*Star Games or are you now more willing to trade him?


BONUS - Age

I can't believe I forgot this but GSW9 reply reminded me of everyone's favorite crutch: AGE! People often say since AR and Wright are so young that they have the potential to get better... well they do but most impact players come into the league and show their worth immediately. Below is the link comparing Randolph to Big Men (6'9" or taller) who finished their sophomore season by the age of 21 sorted by WS/48 to put everyone on even ground.

Young Big Men Sorted by WS/48

Looking at the list AR ranks 44 out of 71 regarding WS/48. So he is slightly a below average player (WS/48 of .100 is average).

Stud big men like Duncan, Howard, Moses Malone, Webber, Gasol, Jefferson, Bogut, Bosh, Kemp, Amare, Dirk, and KG all had WS/48 > .100 which is considered average.

Notable players within the same range as Randolph (.80 WS/48) are Joe Smith, Beasley, Durant, Tyson Chandler, Uncle Cliffy, Odom, and Shareef Abdur-Rahim. Not exactly the caliber of players compared to the first group. 

Those who had WS/48 lower than Randolph's are Jermaine O'Neal, Zaza, Kwame Brown, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Rudy Gay, Troy Murphy, and Chris Kaman. Again that group is not as strong as the first group, but it is stronger that the group in Randolph's range.

So the point is if you're expecting a perennial All*Star big man AR production so far again will make him the exception rather than the norm.

 

BONUS 2 - FGA/Volume

This was added for Missing Barry who wanted to see components of volume or shot creation added in. Since Randolph lost a ton of games due to injury I'll be looking at FGA/game and FG% compared to the same set of players.

Randolph FGA/G vs Others

Randolph FG% vs Others

So looking at the link we see Anthony Randolph rank 86 out of 125. Meaning he took less shots than other players which not a bad thing considering he ranks 91st in FG% (using FG% instead of TS% because we are only looking at FGA and not including free throws). However, if you look as FGA as an indicator of team importance/dependence than Randolph's low FGA game (7.7) doesn't bode well. Players who had as many or less FGA/game are Tim Thomas, Mehmet Okur, Hakim Warrick, Eddy Curry, Rashard Lewis, Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Brad Miller, and Tyrus Thomas. While that is a decent list of players that doesn't include studs like Bosh, Amare, Pau, James Worthy, Dirk, Webber, Hakeem, Moses Malone, and Yao who all averaged more than 10 FGA/G. The best player who averaged more than Randolph but less than 10 FGA/A I believe is Shawn Kemp who averaged 8.2 FGA (79th) but was 42nd in FG%. So again it looks like the stud players become offensive options on their teams early in their careers.

Things get interesting when you look at FGA vs FG%

Player/ FGA rank/ FG% rank

Randolph - 86/91

Bosh - 48/76

Amare - 32/70

Odom - 15/95

Webber - 5/17

McDyess - 14/72

Gasol - 18/25

Kemp - 79/42

Jefferson - 103/27

Zach Randolph- 109/39

As you can see Randolph was the LEAST efficient big man (aside from Odom) I looked at, but yet he took more shots than players like Jefferson and  Randolph who absolutely killed him in efficiency and in relation to others who carried more of a scoring load he STILL was LESS efficient than them. As we can see Odom took a high amount of shots early in his career as the Clippers #1 option but wasn't that efficient, which we know is the truth now as he is best suited as 3rd or 4th offensive option.

Aiya. Again not looking good for Randolph into becoming an offensive power house.

 

Thanks for the Rec!

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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I've always said...

…that while no one here wants AR to go for nothing, I would be willing to trade him for the right piece.

Is DeMarcus Cousins the right piece? I’m not sure, but in terms of being a dominant presence in the frontcourt he’s much, much further along than AR and he’s two years younger.

I would trade AR for Cuz (4th pick) or Kevin Love if we had the chance and Minny agreed to throw in the Utah (23rd) pick.

by Screwfish on Jun 16, 2010 5:57 AM PDT reply actions  

I think it’s a stretch to call a guy who has yet to step foot in the NBA much, much further along than AR…..

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 8:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it's fair to say that at their same ages

Cousins outperforms Randolph. I also think Cousins has a better idea of what to do on the court than what AR did back in 08’. As a prospect I’d take Cousins over Randolph. But of course, AR has already produced in the league which Cousins hasn’t.

"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."

by kenntoe on Jun 16, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

But of course, AR has already produced in the league which Cousins hasn’t.

And that’s the important point. Cousins is a prospect who has yet to show up what he did in college will translate to the pros….and it’s not like he’s a Shaq-like prospect, either. If he as impressive of a prospect as some of you seem to think (and I am a big fan of Big Cuz as a prospect, so don’t misinterpret what I’m saying), I have to think he’d be in consideration for the top pick despite any of the red flags he may or may not have.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 10:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Good point, especially about Cousins not being considered for the top pick. That does seem to indicate teams think he won't be too Shaq-like

In regards to Randolph’s production so far, it is an important point, but if the analysis in this article is correct then Randolph’s production importantly points to the fact that our expectations are too high for him, and that he is not going to be a star.

by freerandolph on Jun 17, 2010 12:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

You should look at Shaq's college stats.

They were pretty darn impressive. It should probably also be noted that there are reasons (not involving game stats) as to why Cousins is not being considered in the top 3.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 17, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

That’s the point. Shaq was a monster in college. Cousins isn’t Shaq. He didn’t dominate college the way Shaq did, he doesn’t have Shaq’s combination of size/athleticism….he just isn’t that good of a prospect.

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

If he as impressive of a prospect as some of you seem to think ,I have to think he’d be in consideration for the top pick despite any of the red flags he may or may not have.

 There’s one little problem , a guy named John Wall otherwise Cuz would be the top prospect of this draft. Of course even being the top prospect doesn’t necessarily mean he’d be the top pick, they often get it wrong, they are probably in the process of screwing it up right now :>)

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 17, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

they often get it wrong

That happens. It doesn’t mean their evaluations were wrong. If a guy only has a 40% chance of developing, and everyone else has a 20% chance of developing…..he’s the right pick, even though the majority of the time someone else is going to end up being better.

A couple more points – that John Wall is ahead of him doesn’t mean that much. Big men are more valuable/coveted/get drafted higher than small guys. If Cousins was as good a prospect as Wall without taking size/position into account….he’d unquestionably go first. Second point, Turner is ahead of Cousins, too.

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Second point, Turner is ahead of Cousins, too.

 See? That’s where they are getting it wrong.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 17, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno, I don’t really want to like Turner (I like high upside athletes!), but I have a hard time convincing myself he doesn’t have a really good chance to be a really good player. He was really impressive in college.

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hard to say

Would you prefer Derrick Rose or John Wall? (I think I know your answer)

It’s just coach scouting. I don’t think it’ unfair to say Cousins can be a better player than Randolph.

by tafkasam on Jun 16, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think I very well might go with Wall.

And I have no problem with scouting, nor do I have any problem envisioning Cousins being a better player than Randolph. I have a hard time envisioning it being the most likely case that Cousins, a very good but not great prospect who has yet to show he can produce in the NBA (and may have red flags to boot), will be better than Randolph. He’s not that good of a prospect.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

not to take this post too off-topic

but can you briefly explain why wall is such a good prospect? Like, besides the hype… what is it about him that has everyone rate him number 1?

Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.

LarryLegendofOracle

by dso on Jun 16, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

A combination of his physical traits and how good he already is at his age. More the physical traits, though. His athleticism, length, size…..he’s got an awesome combination of those things. He reminds me a lot of Wade in that respect. Throw some leadership/charisma in with that, and well, he’s quite the prospect.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

He reminds me a lot of Wade in that respect

You give me a headache, Barry. He’s not Wall. Kidd at most.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

He’s not Wall? I think you’d have a tough time proving that! ;)

But seriously, what about the Wall-Wade comparison don’t you like. I’m not a fan of one statement answers that don’t go into the reasons for disagreement. Lay out your argument. He’s bigger and longer than Rose and Westbrook, and in my opinion, slightly more athletic (which is saying a lot as they are both elite athletes) – the way he flies by guys in transition is unmatched by just about anyone out there, his ability to elevate is ridiculous (on a Wade-like level)…..he’s a special athlete, and he really is only slightly smaller than Wade if you look at their respective combine measurements (and Wall was younger at that point and could still grow).

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

much better scorer than Kidd too

I do have a feeling that Wall will be very unique but I think the Wade comparison is pretty darn fair actually.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

And to be clear the Wade comparison isn’t a “he’s going to be the exact same basketball player as Wade”, it’s a “physically, they’re very similar in terms of their build and overall athleticisim” comparison, with Wall being a little bit smaller…..

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ha, whoops.

I’m not a fan of one statement answers that don’t go into the reasons for disagreement.

No wonder you don’t like David Thorpe. You probably wouldn’t have fun playing with Rondo. B the way- aren’t you an anti-fan of comparisons?
He’s bigger and longer than Rose and Westbrook, and in my opinion, slightly more athletic (which is saying a lot as they are both elite athletes)

I agree. He’s as big as Turner in standing reach.
the way he flies by guys in transition is unmatched by just about anyone out there, his ability to elevate is ridiculous (on a Wade-like level)

Well, Wade is much more of a promo-2 with the ability to find teammates. Think Tyreke. Wall is much more of a pure point that can utilize his athelticism- think early Jason Kidd.
he’s a special athlete, and he really is only slightly smaller than Wade if you look at their respective combine measurements (and Wall was younger at that point and could still grow).

But Wade’s bread and butter is his pull-up. Wall doesn’t have that. Tyreke has a similar kind of thing, but I think I stopped thinking of that when I learned he has a better baseline game than a top-of-the key game, where his main move is a step-in bank shot.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

And to be clear the Wade comparison isn’t a "he’s going to be the exact same basketball player as Wade", it’s a "physically, they’re very similar in terms of their build and overall athleticisim" comparison, with Wall being a little bit smaller…..
You probably wouldn’t have fun playing with Rondo. B the way- aren’t you an anti-fan of comparisons?

Not sure what Rondo has to do with anything, but yes, I am not a fan of comparisons, and as you can see, my point was just that physically they’re comparable.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

He's much more of natural PG that Wade

He looks to involve his teammates a lot more, and this isn’t a knock on Wade, Wades just much more of a scorer. Athletically I see similarities.

Walls assist to shots attempted ratio (a crude way of seeing how unselfish a player is) is closer to Chris Paul, Deron Williams in college than Derick Rose, Tyreke Evans, Dwayne Wade.

Wall was at 0.56 assists per field goal attempted.

-Chris Paul was at 0.67 both years in college, and to the pro’s has been consistently from 0.65 to 0.75
-Deron Williams went from 0.82 as a freshman (anomoly of being on a good team and being timid to shoot) to 0.51 to 0.64. In the pro’s with exception of his rookie year has been between 0.69 to 0.76 consistently

Consequently..

-Tyreke Evans went from 0.28 in college to 0.35 in pros (the low college could be attributed to only playing half a year @ PG)
-Derrick Rose was at 0.43 in college to 0.42 to 0.34

What I’m saying is he falls pretty much half way in between the “natural” 10+ assist per game PGs to the hybrid athletic freak ones we have seen recently. His playmaking his much better than Rose, Evans or eve Westbrook (who this year was 0.56, but had been much lower in past).

This goes in line with ‘the eye ball test’ as well. If you watch him he’s not a me-first player. He looks to get teammates involves as evident by setting Kentucky assist record in a game (and he did it with almost 10 mins to spare).

Because of his physical gifts I don’t think he’ll ever truly be like a John Stockton cause it’s just too easy for him to get to rim. I dunno that there is a natural comparison for him at all. But surrounding him with NBA level shooters and scorers should only improve. It’s not hard to envision him being above an 8 assist per game guy, which is kinda what this tells me, not quite Paul or Nash in terms of playmaking but more of a playmaker than Rose, Evans etc.

(for reference Curry was at 0.41 last year. Hard to analyze that cause half year he was off ball)

by tafkasam on Jun 16, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he was

specifically referring to Wade’s physical tools with that comparison and not his passing ability.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 17, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is pretty even-keeled. Usually AR posts go on bragging about him in the wrong areas. Other than overrating his defense, rec.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 8:14 AM PDT reply actions  

…and randolph is not a good finisher down low.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 8:21 AM PDT reply actions  

?? Depending on how much you take his 2nd year improvement to be “for real”, it seems the data contradicts that….so….what are you basing that on?

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 8:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

Depending on how much you take his 2nd year improvement to be "for real", it seems the data contradicts that….so….what are you basing that on?

Great question. I wanted to explain this. Bynum, Bosh, Lopez, and Jefferson are posed as sub-par finishers at the rim. Why? They are pick and roll players lacking pick and roll PG’s. Boozer benefits largely from Williams. As you can see, the players who have pick and roll points other than Randolph do not have nearly the amount of shots blocked at the rim as players who do. The exception is Gasol- but largely because he is so skilled, and maybe Yao, because he is so huge.
Does that cover it?

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

lol i like how you brandish around this cure-all, arbitrary label of "pick and roll player"

as well as “pick and roll pg”

i mean, could you at least explain why some players are more or less “pick and roll players” than others? and could you also explain why being a said “pick and roll player” automatically precludes you from having other offensive abilities that result in a lower shooting percentage near the rim?

Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.

LarryLegendofOracle

by dso on Jun 16, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

i mean, could you at least explain why some players are more or less "pick and roll players" than others?

They set better screens and have better chemistry with PG’s who tend to go to pick and roll plays and pass first.

and could you also explain why being a said "pick and roll player" automatically precludes you from having other offensive abilities that result in a lower shooting percentage near the rim?

Like? It’s obviously not the only factor. Like FRS, ‘it just makes a difference’.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

i'm pretty sure bosh and jefferson are some of the worst screen-setters respective of their position

and let’s temporarily nevermind bosh/lopez/jefferson for a second: how do you know bynum is a “pick and roll” player if you’ve never seen him play with a “pick and roll” pg before? You can just tell from how he plays? It’s not like there’s a before and after comparison you can make with the controlled variable being the point gaurd… unless you’re going to argue smush parker was a better “pick and roll pg” than derek fisher

Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.

LarryLegendofOracle

by dso on Jun 16, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

i’m pretty sure bosh and jefferson are some of the worst screen-setters respective of their position

which just proves my point further.

You can just tell from how he plays?

Of course. He sets very solid screens and has a very good wingspan and probably shoots a very high % off-the-pass. Definitely.
It’s not like there’s a before and after comparison you can make with the controlled variable being the point gaurd… unless you’re going to argue smush parker was a better "pick and roll pg" than derek fisher

Smush Parker isn’t that good. But Derek Fisher would not be a PG in any other system but the triangle, unless you consider a backup guard a PG.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

what

1.) k you said that a good “pick and roll” player is someone who sets better screens. You also said that Bosh and Jefferson are “pick and roll” players. Then, I said that Bosh and Jefferson are bad screen setters. This would mean that, according to your definition, they would be bad “pick and roll” players. But then you say my statement proves your point.

2.) I asked how do you know if Bynum is a good “pick and roll” player [dependent on a good “pick and roll pg”"] if you’ve never been able to compare his game to a time when he he had a good “pick and roll pg”. But you just restated my implications that neither Fisher or Parker are good point guards.

Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.

LarryLegendofOracle

by dso on Jun 16, 2010 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

k you said that a good "pick and roll" player is someone who sets better screens. You also said that Bosh and Jefferson are "pick and roll" players. Then, I said that Bosh and Jefferson are bad screen setters. This would mean that, according to your definition, they would be bad "pick and roll" players. But then you say my statement proves your point.

The players that have low # of shots blocked and a high % at the rim benefit from the pick and roll as a whole. Bosh can’t. Jefferson can’t.

I asked how do you know if Bynum is a good "pick and roll" player [dependent on a good "pick and roll pg""] if you’ve never been able to compare his game to a time when he he had a good "pick and roll pg". But you just restated my implications that neither Fisher or Parker are good point guards.

I answered that. He sets solid screens and finishes well off of passes.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

While reading this thread

I could literally hear the aneurism going off in dso’s brain.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

That’s what that pop was…whoops.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also- West is not a pick and roll player, and Amar’e is just small, not to mention how much Nash overuses the pick and roll, you’re going to have production, but the 44% finishing at the rim is simply because Amar’e relies on too much of a face-up game and the pick and roll. He doesn’t have a back-to-the basket game, but unlike Randolph, is actually a reliable pick and roll player, when not overused, despite the numbers.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

-_-

[offtopic] look i know it seems like i hate you or something but it’s just that each of your posts are so uniquely provoking in their inanity that I am behooved to respond. I would respond to these posts regardless of author, yet by some strange act of coincidence they all seem to be yours. [/offtopic]

k so in the post prior you talk about how certain bigs are rated as sub-par finishers because they don’t have pick and roll point gaurds. But in this post, you say that Amare’s low FG percentage is due in part to his overuse of the pick and roll. How can these two paradoxical arguments stem from the same mouth?

My mind is boggled and it is obvious I am missing something in your logic. please help me

Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.

LarryLegendofOracle

by dso on Jun 16, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

look i know it seems like i hate you or something but it’s just that each of your posts are so uniquely provoking in their inanity that I am behooved to respond. I would respond to these posts regardless of author, yet by some strange act of coincidence they all seem to be yours.

You don’t hate me. Then again, I figured when I saw you make a comment I rather not scroll down all the way down the page but rather just stop right around my comments.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

k so in the post prior you talk about how certain bigs are rated as sub-par finishers because they don’t have pick and roll point gaurds. But in this post, you say that Amare’s low FG percentage is due in part to his overuse of the pick and roll. How can these two paradoxical arguments stem from the same mouth?

Amar’e is an exception. He has no back-to-the-basket game, making his % much lower. Just like if someone other than Curry relies heavily on an outside shot, their % goes down.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

…and randolph is not a good finisher down low.
by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 8:21 AM PDT

?? Depending on how much you take his 2nd year improvement to be "for real", it seems the data contradicts that….so….what are you basing that on?
by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 8:44 AM PDT

OP has the numbers mixed up.

he’s at 54% w/ only 14% blocked in year 1.
http://www.82games.com/0809/08GSW11.HTM

and 47% w/ 22% of his shots blocked in year 2.
http://www.82games.com/0910/09GSW15.HTM

guess that added weight hurt him.

by homer simpson on Jun 17, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

!

this post needs a response

Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.

LarryLegendofOracle

by dso on Jun 17, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow!

Doh!

Editing the article.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 18, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Actually the 1st and 2nd year data was switched for everyone,
Thanks to Homer but Randolph’s stats on the chart are reversed. Randolph was actually more efficient his rookie year and his blocked shots were less. This actually makes sense to me as one of my biggest peeves with Randolph is that he is a soft finisher. Most of his trips into the lane end up with Randolph in some of the most awkward layups as he contorts his body to avoid contact. From someone with his length and jumping ability he should be attacking the rim and not relying on finesse. Is this reason for alarm? I don’t think so but just another thing AR needs to work on. David West’s eFG dropped slightly and Bosh remained the same and both are great finishers now. Also, while Bosh’s eFG stayed the same his eFG% was actually lower than Randolph’s and Amare went from 44.6 to 44.8 so he end up around the same spot in his sophomore season.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 18, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rec. Good stuff, very interesting. I’d like to see something added for volume of shots taken, if you’re inclined to take the time to add it.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 8:45 AM PDT reply actions  

Fun read

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 9:05 AM PDT reply actions  

You're welcome with the Rec.

Keep the Anthonies.

Don’t trade Randolph

(clap to this)

ROMESdavidWOOD37 has taken over the Ongline. He's cool.

by ROMESdavidWOOD37 on Jun 16, 2010 9:31 AM PDT reply actions  

It is a good read

Nothing about it surprised me. I’ve never gone for this Randolph as shooting forward argument. I do think his jumper will improve, but I see him as a PF.
Trading Randolph for a shot at Cousins is foolish to me. Having performed ar a certain level in the NBA counts many times over speculating how a college player will perform, particularly one with such possible drawbacks as Cousins. But the same argument of AR’s experience and performance in the NBA over Cousins can be made for taking Love in exchange for Randolph.
Though Randolph’s ceiling is very intriguing, the possibility of his reaching it is considerably less than Love attaining his more modest ceiling. I’m not in the camp who thinks AR will be a 5 time all star. Just for fun, If I could speculate on the offensive potentilal of AR and Love on a good team. It would be AR being an 18 -10 with a .540 TS% and Love as a 17-12 with a .565 TS%.

by War Years Legacy on Jun 16, 2010 9:36 AM PDT reply actions  

At the end of the day....

It is amazing how little we have seen of Wright in 3 years and Randolph in 2 due to injurys etc. As optimistic as I try to remain for these guys… this next season has to be a make or break deal too see what they can become or not….not expecting all star game…just game period!

by Only In Fairfax on Jun 16, 2010 10:46 AM PDT reply actions  

Yeah

with Randolph at 20 and Brandan Wright at 22 these two young guys still have a boat load of potential and alot of growth and development to do. Due to injuries we havent seen a whole lot thats why I feel we shouldn’t trade these guys. I really hope that Randolph continues to improve and reaches his potential because I think having Curry at PG Anthony can grow alittle better.

Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
PG: Stephen Curry
PF: Anthony Randolph
Can't wait until GS wins a championship!!!

by GSW9 on Jun 16, 2010 11:14 AM PDT reply actions  

Yup, I would agree.

A great fantasy is too imagine Curry and healthy AR/Wright develope amazing chemistry while blossoming into the players we always knew they would become….damn I just woke up! Must be an omen for the future…I am now a sage. We can only….hope.

by Only In Fairfax on Jun 16, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’ve always wondered why people talk so much about chemistry. “Fit” is an important concept – you have to have guys that complement each other, but “chemistry”? NBA players know how to play basketball, they know their reads…..I just don’t see much of a role for it. If you fit well next to a guy, it will show as soon as you start playing together, it’s not something you need to build with them and learn over a period of time.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think chemistry is important...

“Fit” would matter if NBA players were robots or emotionless humans, however “chemistry” is important because NBA players have to work together for 82 games, playoffs, and the off-season. In addition they have to travel together and even room together in some spots.

Have you ever worked for a company where you hated your co-workers? How about a company where you like your co-workers?

Chemistry is important when people need to work together for extended periods of time unless.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not sure how you’re disparaging “fit” – if you have two wings who can’t shoot, you need your other perimeter player to shoot to space the floor. If you have one big who can’t protect the rim, you probably need your other one to be able to do that role. You’re better off with one guy who’s at his best off ball and one guy who’s at his best on ball than two players who need the ball to be effective. What does that have to do with being robots?

As for chemistry, you really think Anthony Randolph is going to learn to make his reads right simply because he’s been playing with Curry for multiple years? You think that guys like Kenyon Martin need time to become effective playing next to Jason Kidd? I’m sure “chemistry” affects players job satisfaction, the question is, how does it impact their team winning? This is the NBA, it isn’t some normal person’s life situation – to get to the NBA, you need to be driven, you need to be the best, you need to understand how to play basketball, what makes you think you need to play with someone over time to figure out how to be an effective player? Stephen Curry knows how to pass – if a guy is open, he’ll get them the ball, whether he’s been playing with them for a long time or not. Monta’s vision isn’t going to improve simply by playing with guys over a period of time. Chemistry? Pffft. Give me talented players that complement each other, like say, the Celtics in year 1 of the Big 3. That they hadn’t played together wasn’t the important thing – what was important was they were talented and played winning basketball, because they all knew how to do it, not because they were experienced playing together. They won 20 of the first 22 games they played together. In the We Believe year, we went 19-9 after Jackson and Harrington showed up in games Baron played in. We went 23-31 over the rest of the season. We then upset the Mavs in the first round. We didn’t need years to grow chemistry for that.

On a side note, I’m really not sure how much liking/disliking your coworkers actually affects performance beyond how it affects your job satisfaction which then affects your performance. That kind of argument is very susceptible many biases we [humans] have in our perception of reality….

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not really disparaging “fit” and you are correct that fit does matter. What I meant and should have said is: “Fit” would matter MORE than chemistry if….. etc. As for the robot theory… NBA players have egos and feelings that sometimes get in the way of doing what’s best for the team especially when money is on the line. There are “team players” who are great chemistry guys (Battier, etc) and there are “Me players” who are all about promoting themselves over the team (Marbury). If Marbury were a team first guy he would have never left Minnesota and KG and he would’ve been deadly.

I never said “chemistry” improves a player, teaches them how to play basketball, etc… but “chemistry” is that extra factor that brings teams up another level. It’s makes great teams into Champions and turns good team into great teams. What’s funny is the two teams you mentioned the Celtics and We Believe Warriors are two teams that I would consider have great chemistry together. The Big 3 in Boston succeeded because they all like each other and were willing to share the spotlight (except with Rondo). When Jackson came to the Warriors he was instant chemistry and the team genuinely enjoyed each other and you could tell on the court. Not sure how well BD, Jackson, J-Rich, Barnes, Ellis, Harrington, Pietrus, and Biedrins “fit” together ideally but I believe their “chemistry” made the team better than what they were. Jackson did the same in Charlotte as well.

In the end a team ideally needs both “fit” and “chemistry” in order to win. I just think “chemistry” barely edges out “fit” in importance. There’s no way to prove this and it’s purely subjective but I believe a team with great chemistry and average fit would beat a team with great fit and good chemistry.

And as for your job satisfaction affecting performance it doesn’t matter if it’s susceptible to human bias and our perception of reality because…. we are humans who we perceive the world is what it is. Now each person perceives the world differently… but an individual’s perception is their reality. So “perception” of work environment and co-workers is important.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seems to me like when we talk about ‘fit" and “chemistry”, we’re largely talking about the same thing. My biggest objection is to whether guys change how they play simply because they like each other more or less, and whether all this stuff we’re talking about is stuff you develop by playing together over time.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

on chemistry

if the PG doesn’t like the SG, he doesn’t put the zip on the pass necessary for the SG to get his shot off cleanly before the defender catches up after working around the screen, and there are countless of other possible examples both on offense and defense

they are human beings, there is chemistry, and fit all involved in creating a team – no, they don’t have to love eachother but they have to trust oneanother on the court to succeed

by hardcore on Jun 16, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

if the PG doesn’t like the SG, he doesn’t put the zip on the pass necessary for the SG to get his shot off cleanly before the defender catches up after working around the screen

Don’t buy that one bit. Trust – sure, I could see that playing some sort of role in decisionmaking (whether to take a shot yourself vs pass to a teammate based on whether you think he’ll convert, for instance), but not making as good a pass because you don’t like someone….?

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

suit yourself, but having coached in both HS and College and seen it in both levels as both a player and coach, and having attended too many games watching dysfunctional GS teams, it matters whether you’re buying or not

by hardcore on Jun 16, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess I’m really not even sure what we’re talking about anymore. I’m not into the idea that just by keeping our young guys around together all of a sudden they’ll become different players than they otherwise would.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

- that’s not what I was arguing either – keeping young guys together because they are talented and play well together would make sense, I’m sure we’d both agree. I’d wager we could both agree that “fit” could describe a team with adequate amounts of good shooters, rebounders, defenders etc. sprinkled through the roster (and that the current roster is misfit).

As I said, on the topic of chemistry, I do think it matters if guys like (or at least don’t dislike) oneanother enough to invest in their mutual success. Timing, effort, floor spacing, trust that a player will be where he’s supposed to be whether at the end of a pass or the defensive rotations, these all are intangible. They can’t always be measured accurately (who gets the turnover on the bad pass – the PG who throws it or the player who wasn’t where he should be?), and only take the slightest hesitation to screw up (the tardy assist described above). And, since most games come down to 8 points or less, that’s only a couple of possessions per game where chemistry could make a difference. Lastly, chemistry & character come into play when a team loses momentum – and has to rally energy and efficiency to recover.

While I am definitely feeling like a minority of one, or two if you count Skeptic, I don’t buy the over-reliance on stats that goes on around here. Intangibles like chemistry do play a role in team sports and particularly basketball. Even as I type that, I know someone is going to cherrypick my comments and misconstrue them to suggest teams don’t need talent or only need chemistry to win, which is not the case (but helps explain why I participate so much less these days). Because we can find stats, and maybe cherrypick some to support our arguments, we do. Because we really do not have the inside view of the clubhouse/locker room, and because we cant easily quantify it, we discount things like chemistry. It doesn’t make players more talented, but it does make talented players into a better team.

by hardcore on Jun 16, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

who gets the turnover on the bad pass – the PG who throws it or the player who wasn’t where he should be?), and only take the slightest hesitation to screw up

 A great example was that ShannonBrown alley-oop play last night, the pass was off line but he has such great athleticism that he bailed it out and made a spectacular play out of it.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 16, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s a great example of a player using his great athleticism to get two points (1-1 fg), where a less athletic guy might have mishandled it and missed the shot (0-1 fg) or fumbled it out of bounds (1 tov). All of those possible outcomes show up on the stat sheet.

Yeah, the PG gets credited with a dime he might not really have earned, but as with hardcore’s example, I think the idea with anecdotes like that is that luck tends to even out over time. Strangely, most of the players we all think have “intangibles” also tend to have tangibly good numbers.

Which reminds me … where’s jae?

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 16, 2010 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

While I am definitely feeling like a minority of one, or two if you count Skeptic

 Revel in being in the top 2% of the class then :>)

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 16, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

the top 2%

Enough with the numbers, Poindexter!

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 16, 2010 4:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s not that I’m discounting mental aspects of basketball. They make a difference. If Pierce, Allen and Garnett didn’t commit to playing winning basketball, the Celtics wouldn’t have been successful. It’s more along the lines of I’m discounting guys who don’t do those things all of a sudden starting to do them just because they like their teammates. Good “chemistry” guys that play good, winning basketball – the Steve Nash’s of the world who’s main objective is to create a good shot, regardless of who shoot it, are going to be that kind of player wherever they go. The Stephen Marbury’s of the world are going to be that kind of player wherever they go. It doesn’t really matter that much whether they like their teammates, how familiar they are with their teammates….guys that play good basketball tend to play good basketball. Whether the Warriors start playing good basketball is dependent on whether Monta decides to take a lesser role on offense, if Randolph starts learning how to put his skills and athleticism to good use, etc. That’s on the individual, but I don’t particularly think those guys would change who they are simply because they know/like their teammates. So yeah….anyways, for me, I guess it still goes back to not thinking our guys growing together is the important thing, but whether they develop the talent and figure out what it means to play winning basketball.

As for intangibles and stats, the thing is, the intangibles show up in the stats. When you pass up a bad shot so a teammate gets a good one, you’re going to get more assists and your efficiency is going to be better, your team is going to be more successful (W-L is a stat, after all), etc. Intangibles show up in the stats somewhere, or they aren’t helping your team win. Doesn’t always mean you’ll find where it shows up in the stats. Just means it really is somewhere….heck, the most basic stat it’ll be is in point differential if it’s making a difference in winning/losing…..

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

well put, and I understand your points – I think perhaps the big 3 for the celtics could be used on either side of the argument, and the more I read your post the less distance I think there may be between our points of view – and, I’m not against stats or using them, I just don’t think they can tell the enire story of what makes a team successful

by hardcore on Jun 16, 2010 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just don’t think they can tell the enire story of what makes a team successful

And the thing with stats is they don’t necessarily explain why something happens, or how it happens….they tell us what did happen. We can look at them to see how efficient a team is, how well it passes, how unselfish it is, how well it rebounds, takes care of the ball, defense, etc….but that doesn’t necessarily tell us about the inputs that went into those end results. Was the defense the product of great man defenders, maybe a dominant rim protecting force like Howard/Ben Wallace in his prime, or maybe the team is just smart and makes their rotations extremely well….the stats don’t necessarily explain how it came about to us, but they do tell us the end result of all the factors that go into defense.

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well that would have saved us a long conversation that went nowhere!

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha Barry!

Not surprised at another long back and forth discourse based on the semantics of 2 words then to find that there really isnt a difference of opinion. The answer really is that we need our guys to “play well together”. ( or no milk and cookies !)

by Only In Fairfax on Jun 17, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I gotta say

That “chemistry” versus “fit” debate was 5000 words of just plain boring. I think I’m starting to see why some posters come out with 10, 000 word essays qualifying and defending every point, to the point that any sane reader would go crazy by the end.
Similarly, things like upholding good standards of good grammar , syntax and spelling are important, but feeling the need to correct a poster for forgetting to put 2 “G’s” and 2 “t’s” in “Maggette” which I’ve seen, is hardly conducive to more substantive debate.
Sometimes it’s better to let it go, on the spirit of open conversation.Then to get in some little ego scrap defining terms.

by War Years Legacy on Jun 18, 2010 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions   2 recs

ADDED A BONUS SECTION REGARDING AGE!

Thanks to GSW9 I added a bonus section at the bottom regarding AGE. Check it out.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 11:36 AM PDT reply actions  

You already had 11 Rec's in one morning and still trying to perfect the post.

Well done Sir.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 16, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not all that uncommon over here...

We’re a little more “Rec” happy than most sites.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 16, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

You didn’t include volume in the bonus section!

Also, while I like what you did in the bonus section, I’m not necessarily ready to subscribe to WP48….

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

It is easier to address the age issue.. just one link.

Would have to look up the individual volume totals again player by player and frankly I’m a bit lazy right now. Are you concerned with the total number of shots or rather how many were jump shots and how many were close shots? Just wondering because I’m not sure what the volume would add given Randolph missed 2/3rd of his sophomore season.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah no worries I appreciate whatever effort you put forward. My thoughts are more along the lines of “how good were all the respective players at creating shots for themselves in general” – so basically, how many shots they can get off at a comparable age/experience level. Not sure what the results will tell us, just curious if it tells us anything meaningful.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gotcha.

Working on something now. This could be easily addressed with a B-R link.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

thanks lol

Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
PG: Stephen Curry
PF: Anthony Randolph
Can't wait until GS wins a championship!!!

by GSW9 on Jun 16, 2010 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Added Bonus Section #2 - Volume for Missing Barry!

There you go Barry.

It’s not total FGA because Randolph missed 2/3rds of his rookie season and it didn’t make sense to compare his total FGA to those who played more games.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 2:00 PM PDT reply actions  

Sweet, nice, I’d give you another rec if it’d let me.

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

thanks for the write up..you put a lot of work into it...

I could tell from the tone from the first few sentences that this would probably end up being a semi-“anti” AR thread…Personally for me, I do not trade Randolph. He’s too talented, has shown too many flashes of brilliance, is still too young and needs time to develop, and most of all, has not been put in a position to succeed. Nelson’s poor handling of Randolph coupled with untimely injuries have left us this offseason still wondering what we have in AR. This should never have been the case on a mid 20’s win team that was going nowhere with no legitimate big men. AR should have been given a longer rope and ample court time to develop. Nelson and Warriors management failed. We should have a lot more questions answered by now and not be going into this draft wondering what we have. I hold onto Randolph and give him time under a new coach/front office.

by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jun 16, 2010 4:04 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I couldn't agree more

Randolph has been handled abysmally
.

This should never have been the case on a mid 20’s win team that was going nowhere with no legitimate big men. AR should have been given a longer rope and ample court time to develop. Nelson and Warriors management failed

25 win Nelly had big plans that didn’t include Randolph. Recruiting Mikki Moore allowed him to take his sweet time, bench Randolph and preserve has image as that stern task master who reigns in Randolph while letting Monta and Sjax do whatever they please.
 Wright’s injury should have narrowed the seasonal priorities toward evaluating Randolph’s talents..Over the last 2 years, we could have been about 30% ahead in our evaluation of Randolph by now, even with this years injury., That information would have been valuable at this time. But our management failed.

by War Years Legacy on Jun 16, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow huge alarm screaming “Brian Sabean!” going off in my head right now….

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

+100000000
Wright’s injury should have narrowed the seasonal priorities toward evaluating Randolph’s talents..Over the last 2 years, we could have been about 30% ahead in our evaluation of Randolph by now, even with this years injury., That information would have been valuable at this time. But our management failed.

I’ll try to fit this into my signature.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 16, 2010 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nellie’s job is not to make Anthony Randolph the best player he can be. His job is to make the Warriors basketball team the best it can be.

All of Randolph’s offensive freelancing and missed rotations/assignments really hurt the learning progress of the rest of the team. You cannot develop a cohesive team defense if somebody is forever ignoring their responsibilities because they think they can block that shot or whatever. The team needs somebody who understands his responsibilities and does his job.

When Randolph stops the ball and takes a 20 footer, he is ignoring the designed play, he is ignoring his coach, and he is ignoring the rest of the team. When Monta/Jax “do whatever they please,” they’ve done what Nellie asked them to do: try to find a mismatch, get that guy the ball, and if nothing’s there, create something. Maybe they thought they had the best mismatch. Heck, they’ve probably run the P&R, the other team defended it well, and they did what they could. Is Monta going to be able to run the P&R like Steve Nash? No way, but he does what his coach asked him to do to the best of his abilities. So it didn’t work, boo hoo. That’s Nellie’s fault for running a play that he knew Monta couldn’t really execute that well. That’s NOT Monta’s fault. He was executing the designed play, he was NOT ignoring his coach, he was NOT ignoring his teammates. That the outcome was undesirable is irrelevant.

Randolph’s freelancing directly counteracts any coaching and strategy that Nellie puts in place. This is why Randolph was benched in favor of mediocre at best veteran big men who simply went out and did what they were told. He wanted to show coach what he could do… #$!! the rest of the team. $!#!@ what coach asked him to do.

As soon as Anthony Randolph learns that basketball is a team game that employs things called “strategy,” his coach will trust him more and he will contribute to a winning basketball team. Until then, his coaches will continue to bench him because he ignores his teammates.

I get the impression that Anthony Randolph has thought of himself as better than the rest of his team for his entire life. He certainly acts like it. He is a very, very talented and athletic gentleman who has a lot to bring to the basketball court. He just needs to accept that he can’t do everything, he needs to accept that his teammates are good basketball players, and he needs to accept that his team cannot function unless he executes his role as his teammates expect.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 17, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

What is going on with that 4th paragraph…..

I’m going to go out on a huge limb right now and admit I don’t know how the dynamics of that situation worked. I do believe developing Randolph is in the best interest of the Warriors overall and should be a priority. Were we doing that as much as possible? I don’t know, but we should have been.

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know either...

I also believe developing Randolph is in the best interest of the Warriors and should be a priority. However, it does not and will never usurp the ultimate priority of developing the Warriors basketball team. I have posited a very, very plausible reason for why Randolph gets yanked.

Furthermore, you know all those times Monta couldn’t find what to do in the P&R and ended up taking a bad shot? It’s certainly possible that some of that was due to his not being comfortable about where his teammates were going to be on the floor. Now, we all know that Monta is not Steve Nash, but if you compound his “not Steve Nash”ness with teammates who aren’t going to be where they’re supposed to be… you’ve got a recipe for a guy who’s gonna get tunnel vision because he doesn’t want to try to pass the ball to Randolph in the corner only to have the ball fly into the stands because Randolph wasn’t where he was supposed to be. Or he’ll be running into an extra help defender because Randolph cut across the lane at a stupid time. Or, whatever. I’m not saying that it’s all Randolph’s fault, nor do I have any evidence that what I’m suggesting did actually happen. It’s just a very plausible reason, and the only real reason for why the winningest coach in NBA history would take such a talented and productive player off the floor.

We know Randolph clashes with Nellie. We know he bucks against authority. We know he is very confident in his own abilities. We know he likes to take 20 foot jumpers off the dribble. We know he has an inflated opinion of his dribble drive. We know he gets overzealous on help defense and often misses defensive assignments. We also know Nellie often pulls him off the floor for no apparent reason. We’ve seen Monta, team captain/leader, yelling at him. All these things fall pretty well in line with “Randolph’s freelancing screws up the team strategy, making it impossible to execute, and that’s why Nellie yanks him.”

ewrkljkjwer

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 18, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Apparently, if you put a "*@"

with some text followed by a “@*”, it’ll block it like

this

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 18, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

@ What the @

[Info on Randolph] Would have been valuable at this time... But our management failed.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 18, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

whatthe

[Info on Randolph] Would have been valuable at this time... But our management failed.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 18, 2010 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Weird

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 18, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

why the winningest coach in NBA history would take such a talented and productive player off the floor.

cause he’s also one of the losingest coaches in history?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 18, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don Nelson

man who has lost over 1000 games

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 18, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yep Dubs I like your take on Randolph.

I feel the same. The guy has all this “physical” potential but seems to be mentally unfocused…uh hate to say that he may not be the sharpest tool in the box..I am hoping that with maturity and perhaps some mentoring he could start to apply his brain to the patterns of the game,

by Only In Fairfax on Jun 18, 2010 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wait...
VERDICT: Randolph is not as TO prone as we thought compared to other big men and decreasing his TO is a realistic possibility, but maybe his ceiling isn’t as high anymore?

So you’re saying he’d be better in the future if he had a higher turnover rate?

Cut.

by Butterknuckles on Jun 16, 2010 4:08 PM PDT reply actions  

ya..i dont really understand this logic..

it’s like saying Albert Pujuols was drafted in the 30th+ round of the baseball draft so those drafted earlier would probably have a more likely chance of performing like Pujuols had they gone later?

by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jun 16, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

No because being drafted =/= performance

Draft spot is not a measure of performance like TOs.

Where a player is drafted is based on opinions of others. TOs on the other hand is a record of performance.

It’s more like saying a rookie pitcher with a higher WHIP is more likely to improve over subsequent seasons or a batter with a more strike outs will have bigger improvement.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

it’s like saying Albert Pujuols was drafted in the 30th+ round of the baseball draft so those drafted earlier would probably have a more likely chance of performing like Pujuols had they gone later?

 I took it to read pujuols improved more because he dropped a lot of fly balls or struck out a lot as a rookie?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 16, 2010 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't say it... Hollinger did.

Again I just presented the data and I found that tidbit by Hollinger regarding “higher TO rate = more improvement” interesting.

Not sure if it’s true or not as I haven’t seen/read the study other than what Hollinger mentioned but it makes some sense, IMO.

Higher TO as a young player could mean some things:

- Their game is not as “refined” as a someone else with a lower TO rate. Thus more room for improvement.
- More talented players have the ball in their hands more compared to less talented players. Thus they rack up more TOs but ultimately improve more because they are “better” players.

Not saying it’s true or not but those are a couple reason why I think it’s plausible.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 16, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would guess the TO thing generally means they’re doing more on offense, too. He might not mean a “ceteris paribus” situation. Or it could be a situation kinda like you describe where the TO’s are really a proxy for something else – for being identified as talented early enough to have a fairly large role in the offense, maybe?

by Missing Barry on Jun 16, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

So..
"higher TO rate = more improvement"

that’s what you’re saying…

Cut.

by Butterknuckles on Jun 17, 2010 3:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hollinger said it...

I’m just pointing it out.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 17, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

And again, there might be legitimate reasons why it’s true, even if it seems counterintuitive….

by Missing Barry on Jun 17, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

what he (Hollinger) is saying is that guys who initially have high TOV rates cut their rates more than guys who initially have low TOV rates.

example. two player one with a 20 rate vs one with a 10 rate as rookies. lets say the 10 guy cuts his rate to 9. that’s a 10% cut in his TOV rate. now let’s say the 20 guy cuts his rate down to 15. that’s a 25% cut in his TOV rate.

25% decrease > 10% decrease. hence, ‘guys with high TOV rates tend to cut their rates more than guys with lower rates’.

basically, the guys with high rates have more room to improve, plus it’s easier to improve from 20 to 15 while it’s harder to improve from 10 to 7.5 (which would be 25%).

by homer simpson on Jun 17, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

basically, the guys with high rates have more room to improve, plus it’s easier to improve from 20 to 15 while it’s harder to improve from 10 to 7.5 (which would be 25%).

Exactly. It’s really easy for STAT to realize that “Hey, I know I could dribble through the quadruple team in high school, but in the NBA maybe I shouldn’t do that.” than for somebody to learn that, “Hey, Derek Fisher is a lame douche who likes to sneak under me, I better watch out for him when I play the Lakers.”

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 17, 2010 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

what he (Hollinger) is saying is that guys who initially have high TOV rates cut their rates more than guys who initially have low TOV rates.

 So it actually has nothing to do with ultimate player quality, it’s just a rate thing?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 17, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think it has anything to do with rate....

The quote does not mention improvement in regards to TO rate only it reads…

“Westbrook also is the youngest of the three, the best defender and the only one who had to change positions upon arriving in the NBA. All of which suggests he’s only scratching the surface of his potential — as does the fact that he has a higher turnover ratio than the other two, which, in a paradoxical twist of logic, is actually a good thing for a rookie. Historically, those with high turnover rates have had much higher rates of improvement in subsequent seasons. "

So it doesn’t say improvement regarding TO rate only or overall improvement. My impression from the sentence is Hollinger is talking about overall improvement because his whole argument is that Westbrook may end up being better than Rose.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 17, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

? the “rate” of improvement is in regards to “those with high turnover rates”.

by homer simpson on Jun 17, 2010 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Those with higher TO rates have improved more in subsequent seasons…. we just don’t know if he means overall improvement or only TO rate.

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by FLAxwless on Jun 17, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

My read on it is he means overall improvement.

by Missing Barry on Jun 18, 2010 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

Happy Birthday man!

My icon is a testament to the Dubs ability to play defense.

by JR Repertoire on Jun 16, 2010 4:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Nitpick

Great job, as usual. Nitpick below,

Skies the limit?

That should read “sky’s the limit.”

by GameSix on Jun 23, 2010 11:25 AM PDT reply actions  

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