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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

Synergy's take on Stephen Curry and Monta Ellis

And the debate continues.

Star-divide

First, a quick primer for the unfamiliar. Synergy is a video logging and tagging service that indexes and records all NBA plays. It spits out a stat called PPP (points per play), a valuation of how successful (or not) a specific player was in a specific situation (offensively and defensively). Like any metric, there is noise and can't be taken as an all-encompassing truth, but the specificity of the data provides a unique perspective, and is the closest thing we have to evaluating a player's defensive ability.

One more thing: the "play" in PPP is a possession that ends in a FGA, TO, or FTA (excluding technical FTs). It doesn't account for assists (within the specific situation), either made or allowed, so it's purely a measure of a player's ability to score and prevent his opponent from scoring (some of the assist data can be teased out from watching the likely recipient's data, though. For example, watching Turiaf's finishes off the pick and roll will give you a good idea of Curry's passing effectiveness from that situation. Note: this is entirely different from the raw data that Synergy provides, which has all of Curry's assists for one's viewing pleasure, unsorted. The nature of the tagged data, organized by the shot taker/turnover maker prevents organizing assist data thusly).

Also (I lied about one more thing), the defensive tagging is based on the primary defender at the beginning of the situation. So if Steph Curry is guarding Chris Duhon, but switches onto David Lee after a screen and Lee posts him up and attempts a shot, that play gets logged as post-up defense for Curry.

Without further ado: Numbers!

Stephen Curry - Offensive PPP

Play%Time
Number
PPP
Rank
FGMFGA
FG%
3FGM3FGA
3FG%%SFAnd1
%TO%Score
Overall 100% 1444 0.95 161 521 1122 46.4 164 374 43.9 3.7 16 16.4 41.8
Isolation 13.3% 192 0.87 95 63 153 41.2 12 28 42.9 4.2 6 13.5 39.6
P&R BH
26.9% 389 0.81 84 131 297 44.1 20 50 40.0
3.3 3 18.8 38.6
Spot-Up 16.9% 244 1.39 2 118 226
52.2 82 162 50.6 3.7 1 3.3 52.5
Off Screen
3.3% 47 0.91 58 17 42 40.5 9 18 50.0 0.0 0 10.6 36.2
Hand Off
5.5% 79 0.95 30 31 73 42.5 8 22 36.4 2.5 0 3.8 43.0
Cut 2.8% 40
1.38 46 25 36 69.4 0 0
0.0 5.0 2 5.0 67.5
Transition
22% 318 0.94 261 116 248 46.8 29 79 36.7 5 4 16.0 42.5

 

Monta Ellis - Offensive PPP

Play%Time
Number
PPP
Rank
FGMFGA
FG%
3FGM3FGA
3FG%%SFAnd1
%TO%Score
Overall 100% 1798 0.89 277 626 1402 44.7 76 223 34.1 7.7 36 12.8 43.3
Isolation 27.9% 502 0.8 153 149 386 38.6 11 39 28.2 9.2 10 12.2 39.6
P&R BH
26.1% 469 0.82 81 154 365 42.2 15 49 30.6
7.2 11 14.1 56.3
Post-Up 3.9% 71 1.08 14 31 58
53.4 0 0 0 9.9 0 5.6 52.5
Spot-Up
7.6% 136 1.06 83 53 121 43.8 28 65 43.1 0.0 4 8.1 41.9
Off Screen
2.4% 44 0.98 30 18 40 45.0 4 8 50.0 2.2 0 4.5 45.5
Hand Off
6.0% 108
0.88 45 40 90 44.4 3 11
27.3 4.6 4 11.1 41.7
Cut
4.1% 73 1.00 216 32 61 52.5 0 0 0.0 6.8 2 8.2 50.7
Transition
15.9% 285 1.19 120
130 225 57.8 14 34 41.2 11.6 5 8.8 57.5

 

Analysis: Words in the middle of numbers! So this is a lot of data to digest, obviously, but there are some interesting things to pull out. One, Stephen Curry was the 2nd best Spot-Up shooter in the NBA last season (if you look at the notes, where I expressly state "don't care about NBA rank," you'll see why this is all kinds of impressive. It's really hard, in this system, to get a single digit ranking like that as a full-time player). I knew he was a great shooter, but I had no idea he was that good. Shooting over 50% from three as a rookie in that situation is mind-bottling. Unfortunately, he wasn't as impressive as a scorer in the main NBA PG roles (P&R and Isolation), but that's to be expected somewhat as a rookie. He wasn't awful (actually similar to Rondo's numbers), but as offensively gifted as he is, those numbers will need to increase as he goes along (and I'd expect they would). What's encouraging about his profile (Spot-Up, Cut and Off-Screen numbers mostly) is that he doesn't need to dominate the ball to score efficiently, a good sign that he can co-exist with another ball handler like Monta. He does struggle in transition and in getting to the line, so those will also be things to work on.

Monta, on the other hand...yeah. The good news is GSW found their power forward! Just post him up and let him work, apparently. Looking at his profile it's easy to see why he had success as a second/third/fourth option. His speed working off screens and on hand offs is hard to control, as is his quickness in the open floor. His isolation game is abysmal, though, and is the reason his efficiency isn't anywhere near an acceptable level. As currently constructed, his offense just doesn't work. Something has to change.

Stephen Curry - Defensive PPP

Play%Time
Number
PPP
Rank
FGMFGA
FG%
3FGM3FGA
3FG%%SFAnd1
%TO%Score
Overall 100% 1181 0.89 170
388
949
40.9 113
302
37.4 6.4 21
11.7 40.3
Isolation 16.9% 199
0.69 31
47
150
31.3
6
23
26.1 8.0 3 13.6 34.2
P&R BH
25.7% 303
0.77 66
97
227
42.7
12
33
36.4
4.0 4 19.5
37.0
Post-Up 7.5% 89
0.72 33
18
59
30.5
0 0 0.0 18.0 2 13.5 39.3
Spot-Up
21.3% 251
1.05 269
91
227
40.1
62
157 39.5
3.6 4 4.8 40.2
Off Screen
4.4% 52
0.90 100
18
47
38.3
5
16 31.3
7.7 0 1.9 42.3
Hand Off 3.1% 37
1.08 85
14
26
53.8
5
7
71.4 10.8 2
18.9 48.6

 

Monta Ellis - Defensive PPP

Play%Time
Number
PPP
Rank
FGMFGA
FG%
3FGM3FGA
3FG%%SFAnd1
%TO%Score
Overall 100% 1120 0.98 367 403
876 46.0 99
253 39.1 6.7 23
12.3 44.9
Isolation 17.9% 201 0.97 273 65 144 45.1 10 31 32.3 10.4 5 14.9 45.3
P&R BH
20.4% 229 0.84 128 74 155 46.5 6 13 46.2
5.2 5 20.5
41.0
Post-Up 10.4% 116 0.95 215 41 83
49.4 0 0 0.0 9.5 3 16.4 47.4
Spot-Up
21.2% 237 1.05 269 85 211 40.3 54 126 39.7 4.6 3 5.5 41.4
Off Screen
8.8% 98 0.94 118 37 85 43.5 3 13 23.1 4.1 1 6.1 44.9
Hand Off 3.8% 42
1.43 102 21 30 70.0 6 8
75.0 11.9 1
14.3 66.7

 

Analysis: Quite promising numbers for the Golden Babyfaced Assassin Child. Intuitively, I felt like he had good defensive fundamentals, and understood how to stay in front of his man well enough, and Synergy backs that up somewhat. Being strong against the main attack modes he'll see his entire career as a rookie is an encouraging sign. Bigger guards will always try to post him up, but aside from the high shooting foul percentage, he's able to take care of himself, and can defend the Isolation/P&R better than a lot of veteran PGs already. Amazing. Big time struggles in the rotation department, and that shows up in Spot-Up defense. Some of that will be team defense, but a lot of that is Curry needing to learn NBA rotations. Rookies are expected to struggle in that area, and Curry is a rookie. Even if he stealth kills babies with his golden face.

Again, Monta comes out not looking so good. He's below average to downright terrible in every single category. Even excusing the Spot-Up numbers due to team defense, there are too many deficiencies to overlook. Combined with his average-at-best offense and Synergy paints a pretty damning picture of Monta. So, he's on a moped, obviously.

Notes:
-%SF means percentage of shooting fouls for that given scenario.
-I omitted exceptionally small percentages (under 2%), so you mental math heroes wondering why things aren't adding up to 100%, that's your reason.
-Take the NBA ranks with grains of salt. A player only needs >2% of their possessions in a given situation to qualify and certain stats are dominated by bigs (transition for example) and/or specialists (spot-up shooting for example). They're mostly for fun, but do carry some information (if only rudimentary). Higher still is better, and really low is still really bad.
-Some ranges for Overall Offensive PPP (based on my observations so far, spent a few days with the data, by no means definite, invert for defensive ranges): <.80 is bad; .81-.89 is decent; .90-.95 is good; .96-.99 is great; 1.00+ is elite. This varies within the data somewhat. For example, average Transition and Cut PPPs are going to be much higher than the other categories, and Spot-Up is higher on average than every non-Transition/Cut situation. P&R Ball Handler and Isolation seem to be a bit lower on average, so adjust expectations accordingly. This is something the NBA Ranks will reflect well.

This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

Comment 129 comments  |  21 recs  | 

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Great read

Who’s the #1 Spot up shooter? And more firewood against Monta’s Defense.

"I tell him straight, 'If you're going to lead, you have to be the first to practice. You have to come in, get your work down and be prepared for practice,' " assistant coach Keith Smart said. "He needs to figure out why he is having stomach problems and he's got to watch how LeBron (James), Kobe (Bryant) and D-Wade (Dwyane Wade) work. He needs to mimic that if he wants his teammates to speak volumes about him." -Keith Smart on Motna Ellis

by ejdacanay on Jun 9, 2010 6:08 PM PDT reply actions  

The quest continues.

I’ve sent e-mails to Synergy complaining, but there’s currently no way to sort via rank due to the way their interface is set up. So it’s a needle-in-haystack deal (though I haven’t tried that hard yet, I figure with some narrowing down it should be easy to find).

Morrow is 4th for what it’s worth.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 9, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

My guess would be Kyle Korver, who shot an absolutely absurd 53.6% from three point range.

by genesic on Jun 10, 2010 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Close, very close.

Korver is actually tied with Curry at 1.39 PPP. The hunt presses on.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know who it is!

Chauncey!

I mean seriously guys. Are we freakin children. The ownership change is on its way and in the meantime, we're putting together pieces of a logo that we already know.
That is like giving you crayons and a puzzle while waiting for the main course!

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

By the way, Spider, I want to know Nash’s PPP’s.

I mean seriously guys. Are we freakin children. The ownership change is on its way and in the meantime, we're putting together pieces of a logo that we already know.
That is like giving you crayons and a puzzle while waiting for the main course!

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Surely.

Steve Nash – Key Offensive Numbers
Isolation: 1.02 PPP (11th in the NBA /18.7% of total possessions)
P&R: .99 PPP (12th/50%)
Spot-Up: 1.12 PPP (51st/5.8%)
Transition: .94 PPP (261st/11.1%)
Off-Screen: 1.13 PPP (5th/3.4%)
Overall: .98 PPP (110th)

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks. I meant can I just know his overall Off and Def PPPs

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks…that means Curry is better defensively. Is there a career PPP? Is that his career PPP? I wish I had Synergy…

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just 2009/10. No career data for the end user.

The corporate version (that GMs/scouts use) has a ton more stuff. College, international, past seasons, etc.

Pretty much the best thing ever.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just curious…what are Tyreke and Jennings’ PPPs. Also curios at Holiday’s numbers, but that’s okay. Offensive and Defensive. Anywhere I can look at this myself?

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yup.

Tyreke:
0.91 PPP (Offense)
0.87 PPP (Defense)

Jennings:
0.83 PPP (O)
0.88 PPP (D)

Holiday:
0.87 PPP (O)
1.01 PPP (D)

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

That completely deligitimizes PPP.

Curry is an average defender, yes, but he is the worst of the three ROY candidates. Jennings’ defense is so good he locks down on himself. But…Holiday?1.01PPP on defense? He’s the best perimeter defender in the draft. Thanks, though. I’d make it into a borderline-interesting post, put it wouldn’t be original. Maybe Holiday averages over 2PPP on close-outs.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not saying it deligitimizes your post, just….

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

That completely deligitimizes PPP.

Or it “deligitimizes” the observations that Holiday was the best defender.

by jae on Jun 10, 2010 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holiday is the best defender. Incredible lateral quickness, great toughness and aggressiveness, leadership on the defensive end, size, versatility, etc. He’s the best defender. You could argue Tyreke is the best…but without looking at any statistics at all I can tell you that he’s a horrible, horrible off-the-ball defender but one of the best on-the-ball defenders in the league.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think that Tyreke is the best

he’s kind of a lazy defender.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 10, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree, Randy. He’s extremely lazy and reaches too much. But his potential and leadership in incredible.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh he absolutely has great defensive potential

especially if PG is his long term position.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 10, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holiday is the best defender. Incredible lateral quickness, great toughness and aggressiveness, leadership on the defensive end, size, versatility, etc. He’s the best defender.

You have supported your opinion by restating your opinion. Hell of a way to learn there, Larr.

by jae on Jun 10, 2010 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, maybe this shows

Holiday guards the best players?

Kobe sucks

by GovernorStephCurry on Jun 10, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know he likes challenges defensively. He bodies up a lot. Curry is crafty as a defender, Tyreke is very aggressive and a hell of leader on the defensive end. Jennings’ defensive sucess could just be because he plays on a good defensive team. Holiday plays on pretty bad team but he probably gets really tough assignments. It would be easier to tell if we had his splits of PPP.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I've watched a lot of Holiday's defensive tape, and he's earned that bad defensive PPP.

He is a good defender, and he was at UCLA, but he doesn’t understand the NBA yet. A lot of his trouble came from not understanding where his help was, and funneling his man to an open lane on the floor. It’s not a physical thing with Holiday, he just hasn’t grasped how to play NBA defense and he’s not playing within his ability yet.

Curry already has both of those things down, and it’s reflected in these numbers. Does this mean Curry has a higher ceiling as a defender than Holiday? No, not at all. But right now, Curry plays better NBA defense than Holiday. Rookies are expected to struggle with the things Holiday struggled with, but he needs to piece together a solution.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 11, 2010 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know Holiday isn’t a good defender yet…but he has the upside.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 8:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

That’s a rather different cry from your original statement:

Holiday is the best defender. Incredible lateral quickness, great toughness and aggressiveness, leadership on the defensive end, size, versatility, etc. He’s the best defender.

by jae on Jun 11, 2010 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

this whole thread cracked me up

Just because someone has potential to be the best defender doesn’t necessarily mean they were the best in their rookie year.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

So? Sue me. Holiday has an incredible upside as a defender. It could easily be that Holiday’s stats aren’t so good because he takes on a ton of defensive responsibility.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Holiday is the best defender. Incredible lateral quickness, great toughness and aggressiveness, leadership on the defensive end, size, versatility, etc. He’s the best defender.
I know Holiday isn’t a good defender yet…but he has the upside.
It could easily be that Holiday’s stats aren’t so good because he takes on a ton of defensive responsibility.

George Bush would have a field day winning an election over you:

My guess is that you see his physical skills and immediately think “he’s the best defender.” Yet, basketball, like many things in life is at least 80% mental. Seems to me that he maybe got away with just being a great athlete in college. That doesn’t work so well in the NBA, and he’s got to realize this. He may or he may not ever “get it.” There’s precedent both ways. As of right now, he may be a physically gifted defender, but he’s not using it as intelligently as other rookies. And he’s probably got some tougher marks.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 11, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

The point is I don’t know for sure, but Holiday is a really good defender. He plays an older style of defense and really gets at it. Maybe he isn’t mentally there, but he’s 19…and I still think that he plays the best defense. Jennings could simply be at 88 because he plays on a good defensive team.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

If he’s a really good defender but his defense wasn’t actually as effective as people who you say aren’t as good defenders, your definition of ‘good’ leaves a lot to be desired.

by jae on Jun 11, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

If he’s a really good defender but his defense wasn’t actually as effective as people who you say aren’t as good defenders, your definition of ‘good’ leaves a lot to be desired.

Like what? That he was facing good offensive players?

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would be very surprised if that explained it all

He would have to be guarding the best guard every time. Besides, I would think Iggy would get alot of SG assignments when Thaddeus was in.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

So what? Ime Udoka and a lot of the Kings are good defenders but Tyreke still always guards the other teams’ best players.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Believe it or not

but Donte Greene actually was the one who often had to guard the other team’s best players. That includes SGs.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

but Greene isn’t a good defender…? Tyreke is your team’s best defender…

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

donte did pretty good last year actually on defense

(if you don’t count rebounding)

What he sucks ass in is basically anything on offense. He has zero handle, he can only cut to the hoop and catch a pass for the dunk. You will never see him drive to the hoop in traffic. Hence all the 3 point shots he is famous for.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Still…a 6-11 defensive specialist that can shoot. Sounds good to me. Better than Corey M*ggette, Anthony Toddler, or 2 guard like Azubuike or Reggie Williams there.
And Jason Thompson and Hawes are way more versatile than Andris Biedrins.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hawes is versatile in that he can suck is so many different ways.

by jae on Jun 11, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hawes is versatile in that he can suck is so many different ways.

For a second there I thought that was Wally, then I realized it was a real diss and not just a sigh.
Hawes is very versatile. He can shoot, pass, defend, has a nice post-up game, etc. Do you consider Biedrins versatile? He only rebounds and finishes well. That’s about it. Pryzbilla with two left feet is more versatile.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Being versatile doesn't mean jack if you aren't really good at any of those things you try to do

I must admit, I was actually a bit of a Hawes defender this year. I kept thinking that it was Thompson’s D that sucked. After looking at all the statistical stuff though, I think I was pretty wrong on Hawes. His defense is all kinds of ungood nomatter what statistics you base it on. He really is not that great of a shooter. He really doesn’t have many post up moves. He can pass, and I love when they run the offense through Hawes and Beno and run the Princeton offense (Hawes at the top of the 3 point line, no screens just quick cuts to the basket from Beno). For me that is about it.

The guy acts entitled, has bad knees, and acts like he has already made a name for himself. Personally, I would rather have the consistent guy. Not sure about Biedrins health and I have my own questions about what he would do on another team, but other than last year Biederins has been pretty darn good for the Warriors.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Biedrins can do something that is useful in winning games. He can rebound. He also doesn’t miss many shots, even if he does’t take many. Hawes can pass well for his size. Other than that, he’s pretty much a recipe for losing.

by jae on Jun 12, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hawes is very versatile. He can shoot, pass, defend, has a nice post-up game, etc.

You misspelled “Hawes sucks. He’s a sub par rebounder making whatever defensive ability he has more or less irrelevant when the opposition has second chance shots galore. His shooting ability didn’t translate to making many baskets and whatever postup game he has is irrelevant when he’s as ridiculously inefficient as he is. However, he’s fooled some of the fanboys who don’t know better into thinking that he doesn’t suck. He fools the fools into thinking he’s good, but he isn’t.”

Versatility is overrated when you suck. Hawes sucks.

by jae on Jun 12, 2010 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Versatility is overrated when you suck

Does that apply to Randolph? Two years on our team and he still hasn’t filled his ‘upside’ or become more than a garbage point collector or an inefficient player that rebounds and dominates the ball. He can hanle and shoot, but he shoots a horrible %. Is versatility for AR overrrated because he sucks?

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 12, 2010 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

Frankly, the hype around Randolph as someone who can do everything hasn’t impressed me. Most of the “skills” he’s been hyped to have are things that get him into trouble. Randolph has been surviving on this board largely on ‘potential’, but in terms of his present production vs. Hawes, it’s not even close. Randolph has shown he does something that helps to win games at a level that’s above average for his position. He’s a good rebounder. Randolph hasn’t shot the ball well, but his scoring efficiency has been better than “horrible”. It’s been below average and his conversion from the floor hasn’t been great, but he’s been effective in getting to the line making him a more potent offensive threat than Hawes.

Hawes does very little that help teams win. Randolph does more than this.

by jae on Jun 12, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still, do you think Randolph’ versatility is overrated?

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 12, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

His versatility will continue to be ‘overrated’ until he starts doing any of the things that make him ‘versatile’ well enough to be a plus.

by jae on Jun 12, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

I kind of forgot

He’s a sub par rebounder making whatever defensive ability he has more or less irrelevant when the opposition has second chance shots galore

I swear, whenever Hawes is in the game opposing teams have learned to crash the boards every single time. He can’t box out players crashing the boards. Simply can’t. Next time you see him in a game, just watch.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 12, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

I swear, whenever Hawes anyone but Curry, Randolph or Biedrins is in the game opposing teams have learned to crash the boards every single time.

You can say that again.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 12, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sort of like LarryLegend’s posts… :-O

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jun 11, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

must admit I'm surprised how good Tyreke is on D on this thing

Seems like iso defense is valued fairly highly on there because Jason Thompson has an okay rating on D also if I recall correctly.

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

What is Tyreke on iso D? He’s probably in the 50s. I know JT is ranked a hair higher than Curry in iso situations.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Jason Thompson has an okay rating on D

Thompson is a few ticks above Curry in individual D and virtually similar to Curry in almost every way on D, including that he sucks at closing out. Looks like you found your Curry!

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 12, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

By the way, Spider…wondering what are Al Jefferson’s stats? Is there any place that lists the basic PPPs of every player without synergy?

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Found a list of defensive PPP’s in the league.
Al Horford 0.75
Nene Hilario 0.81
Dwight Howard 0.82
K. Perkins 0.82
Taj Gibson 0.82
Tim Duncan 0.82
Andrew Bynum 0.83
Mehmet Okur 0.83
Kevin Love 0.83
Lamar Odom 0.84
Nick Collison 0.84
Robin Lopez 0.84
A. Stoudemire 0.84
Elton Brand 0.85
Kevin Garnett 0.85
Jermaine O’Neal 0.85
Carlos Boozer 0.85
Brendan Haywood 0.86
Paul Millsap 0.86
Pau Gasol 0.86
Brook Lopez 0.86
Nenad Krstic 0.86
Ben Wallace 0.87
Andrew Bogut 0.87
S. Dalembert 0.87
Marc Gasol 0.88
Channing Frye 0.88
Jason Thompson 0.88
L. Aldridge 0.88
Antawn Jamison 0.88
Serge Ibaka 0.89
Joakim Noah 0.89
Chris Bosh 0.89
Rashard Lewis 0.89
Zach Randolph 0.89
Udonis Haslem 0.89
Chuck Hayes 0.90
A. Varejao 0.90
Marcus Camby 0.91
Emeka Okafor 0.91
Erick Dampier 0.91
Dirk Nowitzki 0.91
Chris Andersen 0.92
Matt Bonner 0.92
Carl Landry 0.92
Andrea Bargnani 0.92
Josh Smith 0.93
Amir Johnson 0.93
Al Jefferson 0.93
Roy Hibbert 0.94
Luis Scola 0.94
DeJuan Blair 0.96
Troy Murphy 0.98
David Lee 0.98

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Al Horford 0.75
Nene Hilario 0.81
Dwight Howard 0.82
K. Perkins 0.82
Taj Gibson 0.82
Tim Duncan 0.82
Andrew Bynum 0.83
Mehmet Okur 0.83
Kevin Love 0.83
Lamar Odom 0.84
Nick Collison 0.84
Robin Lopez 0.84
A. Stoudemire 0.84
Elton Brand 0.85
Kevin Garnett 0.85
Jermaine O’Neal 0.85
Carlos Boozer 0.85
Brendan Haywood 0.86
Paul Millsap 0.86
Pau Gasol 0.86
Brook Lopez 0.86
Nenad Krstic 0.86
Ben Wallace 0.87
Andrew Bogut 0.87
S. Dalembert 0.87
Marc Gasol 0.88
Channing Frye 0.88
Jason Thompson 0.88
L. Aldridge 0.88
Antawn Jamison 0.88
Serge Ibaka 0.89
Joakim Noah 0.89
Chris Bosh 0.89
Rashard Lewis 0.89
Zach Randolph 0.89
Udonis Haslem 0.89
Chuck Hayes 0.90
A. Varejao 0.90
Marcus Camby 0.91
Emeka Okafor 0.91
Erick Dampier 0.91
Dirk Nowitzki 0.91
Chris Andersen 0.92
Matt Bonner 0.92
Carl Landry 0.92
Andrea Bargnani 0.92
Josh Smith 0.93
Amir Johnson 0.93
Al Jefferson 0.93
Roy Hibbert 0.94
Luis Scola 0.94
DeJuan Blair 0.96
Troy Murphy 0.98
David Lee 0.98

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

Shaq 63.8 0.85
Howard 60.9 0.91
Jefferson 56.8 0.92
Bynum 46.4 0.93
Bogut 45.5 0.80
Aldridge 44.5 0.91
Duncan 42.8 1.00
Pau 40.7 1.00
Marc 37.9 0.93
Lopez 37.6 0.91
Kaman 36.5 0.77
Bosh 34.9 1.09
Horford 34.8 0.94
West 33.8 0.94
Randolph 33.5 1.01
Nene 32.9 0.94
Garnett 32.3 0.90
Perkins 30.3 0.74
Scola 27.8 0.91
Nowitzki 26.6 1.06
Boozer 21.6 0.87
Stoudemire 19.2 0.99
Millsap 16.0 0.83
Noah 14.1 0.83
Lee 13.0 0.80

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Its funny how players who are notorious for bad defense (at least on this site) are near the top of this list

This is why to me stats seem finicky than people act like they are. What does it mean that A Stoudemire is towards the top of the defensive list? Is that just an anomaly from an otherwise decent stat? Does it make the stat lose its credibility? Has everyone on this site been wrong to think that Amare isn’t a good defender? Whatever interpretation you like best is what you’re going to believe, regardless of the outcome of the stats in such cases.

by freerandolph on Jun 11, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dude, Stoudemire’s defense is bad.

Kobe sucks

by GovernorStephCurry on Jun 11, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

is that offensive or defensive

Please note the 11 next to my name. All others are frauds.

by wallywagon11 on Jun 11, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

First line
Found a list of defensive PPP’s in the league.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 11, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

defensive.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kevin Love is so damn good. Absolute Vacuum cleaner on the glass, great, great passer, excellent feel, can shoot it long range, can post up and has a nice jump-hook, and he’s such a great outlet passer. He’s absolutely a perFECT fit for us. I absolutely LOVE Kevin Love. IF he came here I’d replace Rec’d with Kev’d!!

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 9:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

Talk about a man crush….

by DubsFan408 on Jun 11, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Al:

0.95 PPP (O)
0.93 PPP (D)

Huge amount of post-up possessions on offense, almost 57%. When he gets deep position, he’s effective, when he doesn’t he’s not as good. Pretty ineffective in every other offensive situation except put-backs and being the P&R roll man.

Bad everywhere on D.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 11, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s not bad. We need a P&R guy and someone to collect garbage pts and then also score around the basket.
Our defense is atrocious anyway. Big men are way more valuable than small men. If Monta had a .93 PPP on defense or higher…oh man. He would be total garbage.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh wow. Sorry. I just found out his defensive PPP is a cancerous .98…fml. Thank god if we trade him for Mayo or someone. I’m wondering what Mayo’s PPPs are.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 11, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you have access to college games?

Or did you signup for the NBA Playoffs package? Sorry if you answered this somewhere below. Just caught wind of your post and haven’t read all 150 comments yet!

Poor Man's Commish - newly relaunched!... http://dreamleague.org/blog

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by Poor Man's Commish on Jun 15, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

PMC, I asked the same thing. Apparently he only has it for the NBA.

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 15, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Very interesting and informative. I’ve always thought Monta was the better defender too.

by DubsFan408 on Jun 9, 2010 6:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Great stuff. It’s always interesting to see new kinds of stat analysis, especially when it’s as detailed as this. Rec’d.

by WYK on Jun 9, 2010 6:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Wow, this was really interesting

especially interesting is that Curry ranked as a decent defensive player.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 9, 2010 6:45 PM PDT reply actions  

He can actually become pretty much better, if he gets stronger.

I mean seriously guys. Are we freakin children. The ownership change is on its way and in the meantime, we're putting together pieces of a logo that we already know.
That is like giving you crayons and a puzzle while waiting for the main course!

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 9, 2010 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

He has to get much stronger without getting much slower, though….

by Missing Barry on Jun 10, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

and I'm actually glad

that defensive stats exist like this. It’s not perfect, but it feels better than every other metric I’ve seen.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 9, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s not perfect,

 no it’s not, there’s something wrong with the offensive “numbers” column, it show 1444 for both.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 9, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

User error.

It’s fixed now (the other columns were still accurate, just not the number of overall possessions for Monta).

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 12:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is great

Question: Do you think the sub is worth the cash? I’ve played with their demo and seems to have a lot of good info. How easy is it to compare players? Does it have team stats? How is the video quality? Is it really all in Silverlight (bleh)? (Ok, this is more than one question, but mainly, is it worth it?)

Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!

by philthiest on Jun 9, 2010 7:53 PM PDT reply actions  

Valid questions.

It’s easy to compare two players, any more than that and it’s a chore. They have team stats. The video quality is dependent upon your connection. They have eight copies of each clip in varying resolutions. I’m stuck with a pretty awful ISP, so my connection isn’t optimal. That said, I have no problem with the quality. And, yeah, it is unfortunately all in Silverlight.

If you’re a giant dork like me and have way too much interest in these kinds of things, it’s worth it. Being able to settle a question in my mind about a player by watching clip after clip of a situation and being able to see the defensive numbers laid out is worth it for me.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 9, 2010 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

A few concerns

First, take a look at Monta’s offensive 3 point numbers for spot up, hand off, and off screen. 3FGM=3FGA, while 3FG% disagrees.

Also, check out Curry’s vs. Monta’s overall FGA. Eerily, they both use the exact same number of plays, 1444. However, Monta attempted 1402 field goals, while Curry only attempted 1122. At first glance, this might be due to Curry turning the ball over a lot, but so did Monta… the numbers don’t jive.

Finally, Monta made 626 field goals and 76 3s. Curry made 521 field goals and 164 threes. Ignoring FTs (of which Monta certainly made more), the raw data suggests that Monta outscored Curry by a fair bit on the exact same number of plays, yet his PPP is lower.

Something seriously doesn’t jive here.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 9, 2010 9:38 PM PDT reply actions   1 recs

Something seriously doesn’t jive here.

 that 1444 number is a bust. Add up the parts to get the correct number for each?

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 9, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I did this

I got 1688 possessions for Monta and 1230 for Curry.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 9, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I managed to really do something wrong there

cause when I checked it I got 1708 for Monta and 1309 for Curry.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 9, 2010 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

cause when I checked it I got 1708 for Monta and 1309 for Curry.

  haha, try again, how about 1688 and 1309?
   The guy that posted this either copied it wrong or got a bad copy. The numbers they worked with are probably right, I doubt they would put much effort into working with wrong numbers.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 9, 2010 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Overall and 3FGA fixed.

Too many numbers. They all start to look the same after a while.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Great!

I certainly wasn’t disputing the outcome (Really? Monta was ineffective offensively?!?!?! No waaaaaaayyyyy). And you SERIOUSLY changed the play numbers. The offensive numbers get me particularly excited:

Monta works best off the ball. He does not score well in isolations and P&R. If this season proved anything, it’s that Monta is a 2 guard.

If Monta can “do it by himself” less and Curry can improve his P&R and transition play, we’re set offensively. Then they both just have to give up fewer open jumpers. To me, the rest of the discrepancy between defensive play is that most often, Curry was guarding the Fishers of the NBA while Monta was marking the Kobes.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 10, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Monta works best off the ball. He does not score well in isolations and P&R. If this season proved anything, it’s that Monta is a 2 guard.

I think this is one of those things that proponents of using statistical analysis can use to as support that the metric is working and that those who are put off by the metrics can point to as “that’s obvious watching the game; I don’t need a number to tell me that”.

Of course, if you still believe that Monta can work in iso after a) watching this season and b) seeing these numbers, there’s very little to say other than you shouldn’t take it personally, Ms. Ellis, there’s still plenty your son can do on the basketball court."

by jae on Jun 10, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Monta Ellis has a terrible PER for his ppg, rpg, etc. His per game numbers, playing over 40mpg, should make his PER far and above Curry’s considering how much he dominated the ball. Nope. Curry’s PER is 16.3 and Monta’s is not much more. It’s not even 17PER. Monta just can’t play off the ball

When I think of value, I think of Wrandolph. Always have.

by LarryLegendofOracle on Jun 10, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Monta just can’t play off the ball

History begs to differ

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It is already tomorrow in Australia

by dubzfan on Jun 10, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nice to see some numbers that illustrate what we see on a daily basis. Surprised by Monta’s ineffectiveness in transition, but the rest is exactly what I saw in the games – he’s a good offball player, but really struggled as the primary option/ballhandler.

by Missing Barry on Jun 10, 2010 8:38 AM PDT reply actions  

Surprised by Monta’s ineffectiveness in transition

1.19PPP is not ineffective. Its especially un-ineffective when compared to Curry’s 0.94PPP.

As Spider pointed out, the ranking for transition is skewed by the big men who score 2PPP on dunks but only do it on 2% of their plays.

I think the most telling stat is Monta’s turnover rate. The only situations where it’s anywhere near his overall rate is in iso & P&R. Take him out of those situations and you’ll drastically reduce his turnovers.

So, this season seems to have proven that Monta is a 2 guard offensively. Now what? How much did our injury issues throughout the season effect these guys’ performance? Is he effective enough as a 2 offensively to make up for his size limitation? Is his size really that much of a limitation?

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 10, 2010 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Offensively it's kinda what we have thought for a while

He has to play the 2 to be his best. This is just saying this in numbers

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It is already tomorrow in Australia

by dubzfan on Jun 10, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

It's always good to have data and evidence to back up what you see on the court, isn't it?

It’s when these two are at odds is when you’ve got a problem.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 10, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Offensively this seems sound

But I don’t buy into defensive stats, simply because it will not tell you if the player has quick enough feet, reacts quicker etc. To me defense is something numbers can’t really tell you. Offense it can tell you some things but you must have context. Here the offense has some context

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It is already tomorrow in Australia

by dubzfan on Jun 10, 2010 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

The difference with these numbers is they have the video to back it up.

You can watch Stephen Curry in all 199 of his isolation situations and judge for yourself.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't have the system so I don't know and can't see

But I can say that I watched every game this year and IMO Curry was not a great defensive player, but he wasn’t bad. And Monta IMO from watching games was not bad, sometimes they both looked winded from playing so much on defense but neither are as bad or good as some say they are

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It is already tomorrow in Australia

by dubzfan on Jun 10, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm a little surprised about what it said about Curry

but what it said about Monta was 100% consistent with what I saw this year. Monta was just miserable on that end of the court with the exception of a couple games.

Pro-Skub for life

by Reverend_Randy on Jun 10, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know.

As I mentioned, I thought watching Curry that he had good defensive positioning when guarding one-on-one, and understood how to stay in front of his man well enough (and I was quite impressed with his post defense). A lack of strength hurt him a bit, but he was committed on the defensive end, and was very impressive for a rookie.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Curry wasn’t spectacular on defense, but he was reasonable in stepping into passing lanes without having to gamble too much. He didn’t do anything overly stupid or overly lousy. There’s something to be said for not making mistakes even if it doesn’t get as much attention as being spectacular on occasion. I suspect that the subjective vision of defenders probably doesn’t adequately appreciate that one can be moderately effective (not great, but not lousy) simply by avoiding making the stupid mistakes that always lead to buckets, even if you’ll never be a ‘shut down’ guy.

by jae on Jun 10, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right.

That was what impressed me so much, he knew when he could step into a passing lane or drop off his man at the right moment and get a deflection, and he very rarely put himself out of position. He made his made beat him most of the time, and there’s a lot to be said for that.

Most rookies don’t understand their defensive limitations (like Holiday, for example, he was a shut-down guy at UCLA for a season, so you see him trying to pick up Jameer Nelson right at half court or get in Wade’s chest, and that didn’t work out so well for him), but Curry is a smart player and knew if he tried to do too much he’d get eaten up.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, 1.19 PPP is pretty good.

His ranking is low because he (like most guards) takes a lot of jumpshots in transition. The top 100 is filled with big men (like Amir Johnson, who is ranked fourth, I think) who just finish dunks and layups off of passes. Lebron, for instance, is at 1.26 PPP (which is amazing) but is only ranked 83rd. I’m hoping for some sort of filtering system in the future (this did just launch a couple months ago).

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is there any data on league averages for any of this stuff?

That would be interesting to see… obviously, the league rank gives some idea of this, but not the whole picture.

Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.

-randolphforpresident

by Dubs fan in Boston on Jun 10, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's another thing I'm pestering them about.

No league averages unless I run them myself (which I might do), but I’m not very quick on Excel (haven’t used it much) so we’ll see if I get to it.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 10, 2010 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Awesome read

I especially appreciated “mind bottling.” You know, like when your thoughts and your mind are trapped in a bottle.

by GameSix on Jun 10, 2010 10:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Thanks for sharing.

I’d love to get my hands on all that data, but at this point I can’t justify spending money on a subscription to look at more stats. It really seems like a great service though, and I might change my mind if they add some of the functionality that you mentioned earlier.

Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^

by olympicmike on Jun 10, 2010 4:46 PM PDT reply actions  

I just wanted to chime in

and say that this is an excellent post. This is my first time being exposed to this type of player evaluation and I really do like it.

by brutusbrutus on Jun 10, 2010 10:37 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm glad you got something out of it.

That was really my whole goal, to try and give these numbers (which aren’t easily accessible) some daylight.

by Spider Jerusalem on Jun 11, 2010 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

The most enlightening thing were the defensive stats.

I believe that these statistics are the most accurate defensive stats I have seen. I hope that Riley or Nelson have looked at stats like this and understand them, I think we would know exactly what we need as a team.

The last piece of the puzzle is just getting the kinds of players we need.

Also if Ellis isn’t willing to change his offensive game it looks like he needs to go, I thought he was a better defender than he actually is(according to this) and he fails too often at isolation plays when he shoots. It looks like he needs to get his points through transition, screens and cuts. Which I think works with Curry’s spot up game, and Pick and Roll game (he does need to get better at the Pick and Roll) This leaves room for a player at another position to be an isolation player…Does that mean that offensively Maggette does fit in?

by brutusbrutus on Jun 11, 2010 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Does that mean that offensively Maggette does fit in?

He’s not an uptempo player, that’s why if he was in a place like SA he could thrive. His style of play does not mesh with ours

Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It is already tomorrow in Australia

by dubzfan on Jun 11, 2010 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or maybe

Maggette was clashing with Ellis since they both do a ton of isolation. I think it would be a good thing if Maggette came off the bench and got the other team in foul trouble + took up about 12-13 very efficient shots.

I actually like Reggie Williams and Azubuike a little better than Maggette but maybe I have been to hard on him.

by brutusbrutus on Jun 12, 2010 1:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

dollar for dollar Williams and Buike are better I think. If they were all paid the same...

I think I still not like Maggs very much just because of his style of play killing ball movement. Throughout his career has he contributed to winning? What do all those stats say about Maggs anyways?

by freerandolph on Jun 12, 2010 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey Spider, I’m wondering how Nash did on defense this past year. Also, how did Battier do? Is he steadilly declining?

Kobe sucks

by GovernorStephCurry on Jun 11, 2010 10:55 AM PDT reply actions  

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