W’s at a Crossroad: Team Building / Understanding Nelson & Riley
Some disclaimers – I am a long term die-hard W’s fan (even before the ’74-’75 championship), a periodic blog reader, and infrequent contributor. I believe these perspectives are relatively unique … apologies in advance for the length, and if I miss referencing something that has been previously written …
Team Building
Basketball is still a team sport … something that the Max Mercy build-them-up-and-tear-them-down superstar-obsessed media forgets. A "superstar" can get hot and win a few games on their own, but Chamberlain, Garnett, Jordan, Kobe, and now even LeBron / Wade / Bosh all learned that they could not sustain and win a championship on their own. Championship teams have always been well balanced, with multiple threats which obviate opponents from focusing and shutting down any one threat. Of course, the media always anoints the best player on a championship team as a "superstar" … misleading the bandwagon public into believing that a superstar "carried" the team. But the team of players that won the most championships was led (not "carried") by a consummate team player who wasn’t flashy, didn’t score the most points, and who never claimed to be a "superstar" or have a "supporting cast" – Bill Russell. Russell just did what his team needed as one facet of a multi-faceted dynastic championship team. It is entirely appropriate that the NBA Finals MVP trophy is named after that ideal team player – Bill Russell. As the W’s face yet another off-season rebuilding project, they do not need to acquire a flashy "superstar" to "carry" the team … rather they should focus on creating the multi-faceted team of consummate team players required to truly challenge for a championship.
Understanding Nelson
Nelson won 5 championships as a player with the dynastic Celtics … teams that included various combinations of among others, Russell, Havlicek, Cowens, Chaney, JoJoWhite, and Silas. Nelson’s playing days heavily influence his coaching proclivities / biases. None of Nelson’s championship teammates were ever accused to have possessed "superstar" physical athleticism … they were all reliable shooters and skilled capable athletes with very high b-ball IQ’s … and most important to Nelson (and like Nelson himself), they were gym rat overachievers, with a love / respect for the game. While intrigued and tempted by "uber" athleticism, Nelson (the coach) doles out playing time only to skilled capable athletes with reliable shots, high b-ball IQ, and the love / respect for the game … he has little (no?) patience for any others. And if the only players on the team with his requirements happen to be relatively small, then for Nelson, so be it … thus the media misleading simplification "Nellie / Small-ball".
Understanding Riley
Larry Riley has worked with Nelson for multiple years, and understands Nelson and his coaching proclivities / biases. Riley has reacted this off-season with an apparent two-fold plan – [1] manage the team roster such that the players available to Nelson actually meet Nelson’s playing requirements (skilled capable athletes with reliable shots, high b-ball IQ, and a love / respect for the game), and [2] to introduce defense onto the team by limiting Nelson’s alternatives to capable defenders. Riley’s off-season moves to date have all fit this two-fold plan:
- Maggette trade for Gadzuric and C.Bell (salary dump aside): Maggette fit Nelson’s playing requirements, but was defensively challenged, while Gadzuric and D.Bell are capable defense oriented back-ups. If the new guys meet Nelson’s playing requirements [1], they might see some playing time. Otherwise, Nelson’s alternatives have at least been limited to capable defenders [2].
- 6th Draft Pick Epke Udoh was made as he appears to meet Nelson’s requirements [1], and is also a capable defender [2]. We’ll have to wait a while to see if these assessments are right.
- A.Randolph / Turiaf / Azubuike trade for D.Lee: Although Turiaf and Azubuike both met Nelson’s playing requirements, the still very young (21 years old) "uber" athletic A.Randolph did not (unreliable shot / immature / low b-ball IQ). They were traded for D.Lee who definitely meets Nelson’s playing requirements [1]. While time and S.Curry’s influence may have brought A.Randolph around, D.Lee is a consummate Nelson type player right now.
- D.Wright Free Agent Signing: D.Wright (now 24 years old; previously a project) appears to have matured into a small forward fit in terms of both [1] Nelson’s playing requirement, and [2] being defense oriented.
- Not matching A.Morrow: Ammo fit Nelson’s playing requirement, but was defensively challenged, and was sacrificed off the roster to limit Nelson’s alternatives to capable defenders [2]. Without Ammo on the roster, Nelson will have to play D.Wright, R.Williams (who’s off-season focus is defense), or C.Bell.
- Holding off so far on CJ.Watson and A.Tolliver: While CJ and Tolliver both fit Nelson’s playing requirement, they can be defensively challenged. Part of the delay in resolving the status of these two is salary related (see what the market is offering), but there also might be an element of [2] limiting Nelson’s alternatives to stronger defenders.
- Holding off on V.Radmanovic: Radmanovic has been injured, and at one time may have been an option to see if he could fit. But his main value now is as a $6+MM expiring contract, which can be used with other pieces to perhaps get a more significant upgrade.
So far, there has been a method / logic to Riley’s off-season moves … it will be interesting to see how this roster performs.
Current Roster Development
The focus of this discussion has been the creation of a multi-faceted team of consummate team players who can challenge for a championship. I believe that the W’s this off-season have taken intriguing and productive strides in the process. The current roster has been filled with Nelson-type young skilled athletes with reliable shots, high b-ball IQ, and a love / respect for the game. I believe that S.Curry and D.Lee understand Nelson, and are especially solid foundational pieces that will help mold the on and off court team chemistry. While the new Lacob / Guber ownership may be tempted to come in and make changes (the only immediate change really needed is to replace Rowell with someone they like), I hope they give the current roster and Nelson / Riley through December 2010 to see how things play out. The W’s are at a crossroad, but as indicated, Nelson / Riley have taken productive initial steps in an intriguing direction …
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Let’s see how this plays out through December 2010
With regards to Nellie and Riley I am in this camp as much for simple common sense transition time as anything. Good post ! Sensible words. I have hads many of these same thoughts as well. I am sure that the die hard Nellie haters will weigh in soon though. Rec’d
by Only In Fairfax on Jul 17, 2010 11:35 AM PDT reply actions
Great post!
You managed to get me even more excited for this coming season.
Please keep Nellie! This is his team!
by WheresMyChippy on Jul 17, 2010 11:43 AM PDT reply actions
Only person
You can keep is Riley. Rowell and Nellie HAVE to go. Whether you like Nellie or not it just doesn’t make sense to keep a coach who at best will be around for 2 years. A new young coach/gm combo would be preferable but at the same time, outside of the Udoh pick I really don’t have anything bad to say about Riley. Rowell is a bum, throw him out on his ass
Whether you like Nellie or not it just doesn’t make sense to keep a coach who at best will be around for 2 years.
It makes sense if there is no better alternative. Who is a better option to coach a team designed to play an up-tempo style that is available? Let me save you some time. Nobody.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 20, 2010 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Who is a better option to coach a team designed to play an up-tempo style that is available?
I think far too much is made about how this team was “designed” to play up-tempo. There’s not much design in it at all.
OK. How about “organically fused by unknowable universal forces”? My point is, with Lee, Ellis, and Curry all playing heavy minutes together, they must run the ball. This team will be eaten alive in half-court sets. if you combine that with the prevailing lane-clogging, tempo-controlling ideologies amongst NBA x’s and o’s guys, you’re going to have a problem filling the head coaching position for this team as it happens to be constituted this year.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 20, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
"organically fused by unknowable universal forces
Great one..I am filing that one for future use.
by Only In Fairfax on Jul 20, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Keep Nellie
Lets see how he does with a healthy team that can finally rebound for once. Last time he coached a healthy team, the Warriors got 48 wins.
We already had offense, now we have guys down low who can rebound the ball to add to that. Even Dorrell Wright at 6’9" will probably make an impact on rebounding. And now that Nellie has a big man in David Lee who can actually score in the post, it will make our offense even more deadly; we can finally play an inside-out game whereas back then we just kept chucking outside shots.
David Lee will take pressure off of Biedrins inside the paint, and it could help Biedrins get even better. There won’t be a load of pressure on Biedrins and he can start playing efficiently again with passing from Curry and Lee. This makes our frontline deadly, something that even the We Believe team didn’t have.
We can run teams out of the building, we can score inside when our outside shots aren’t going in, and we can finally rebound. Down low we’ll have David Lee hustling hard for rebounds alongside the lengthy Biedrins who can average 10 rebounds as well.
This could be the first time in a long time that Nellie has had a rebounding frontline like this, while also being able to score from anywhere on the court. Nellie now has the pieces he needs to really take this team somewhere. He’s no longer restricted by Tom Tolbert or Al Harrington type of big men getting outrebounded all of the time.
This team has a great chance of improving if they stay healthy. Nellie got 42 wins in 06-07 and 48 wins in 07-08, but then all of the injuries in the following years along with the inexperienced players he’s had to deal with caused him to have losing seasons. Remember that Nellie doesn’t like to play rookies and young players (that’s why he didn’t do well with Randolph), but now he has a veteran big man in David Lee who is also an all-star to utilize. We are now a capable rebounding team while maintaining our ability to score. As a matter of fact, our offense got even better now that we have a 20ppg post scorer.
Let’s see how this plays out through December 2010. I don’t see why we should get rid of Nellie without seeing what he can do now that he has the right pieces in place on the team.
by Precise Films Productions on Jul 17, 2010 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
If we fire Nellie
put Riley in as coach and see what he can do with the team he assembled.
"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 17, 2010 12:58 PM PDT reply actions
Obviously you replace Rowell day one and demote Riley
Rowell has been the primary problem with this front office if the goal is to win and I understand that it is. I think you can demote Riley to some sort of director of Scouting job and what is great for him he probably wouldn’t even need to take a pay cut. (I heard PR guy makes more money than Riley). His resume is not worthy of GM. You need to bring in someone who really understands the salary cap plus has a plan rather than simply someone making moves. The starting line-up is improved from last season but the bench is horrible and I wasn’t sure it was even possible but this is a worst defensive team.
Rowell needs to be thrown out like Uncle Phil did with Jazzy Jeff.
Or the way the Bouncers do it when you get too drunk/fight/steal drinks in the club.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I believe
If it’s true that Spoelstra is avaialble (Which he personally denied), then I do believe we should pursue him as he’s young and Nelson is getting old, which will give us a solid outlook from the coaching position.
If we can find a better GM, take it, otherwise keep Riley, same goes with Nelson, if we can find a better coach, take him. I’m sick and tired of Run and Gun though, we ain’t going nowhere without rebounding and defense. ’Nuff said.
"I tell him straight, 'If you're going to lead, you have to be the first to practice. You have to come in, get your work down and be prepared for practice,' " assistant coach Keith Smart said. "He needs to figure out why he is having stomach problems and he's got to watch how LeBron (James), Kobe (Bryant) and D-Wade (Dwyane Wade) work. He needs to mimic that if he wants his teammates to speak volumes about him." -Keith Smart on Motna Ellis
how so?
Miami’s roster has been a group of scrubs plus D Wade. He has had nothing to work with. He is still a very young coach and has the pedigree and intelligence to be a very solid coach. What reason do you have to think he is a horrible coach?
Why Spoelstra is horrible?
Pedigree? Does that mean he was born into it? Intelligence? Do you and Spoelstra play chess on a regular basis, or did you see his IQ test results, so you know how “intelligent” he is?
Yes, his family is connected around the league and Erik himself was a video coordinator, other than that there are absolutely no results that I have seen from him.
In fact everything I have seen from him, starting from playbook to calling plays to making his team play together was a failure. In fact, if he gets canned in Miami, it will because he is not good enough to coach a team with a premier talent. His role on Miami “rebuilding” team was that of a “yes-man” caretaker, until they get a good enough team, where they have to get a real coach in.
by farid on Jul 18, 2010 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good Point.. but
Isn’t a care taker exactly what the Warriors need? If you presume Nellie has to go (which I don’t given the current roster) then won’t a caretaker be exactly what you need until you get the front office flushed out, a new GM in place and the subsequent roster moves made to rebuild the franchise? If we’ve already rebuilt things up to an adequate level then I’d agree there no point in add Spoelstra.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 7 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
I couldnt agree with you anymore than that
I’m sick and tired of Run and Gun though, we ain’t going nowhere without rebounding and defense. ’Nuff said.
Thats what im sayin!!!!
Fear is the Mind Killer
Run N Gun
was my old aau team so i love hearing it! haha I agree though I am SO SICK of small ball. I enjoyed it when we had the We Believe roster (I would have enjoyed any team with the slightest success at that point). We cant be the same gimmicky team anymore.
Well run and gun doesn't necessarily mean small ball all the time.
Small ball is just a result of the lack of big men who can run. Nellie could have went with a Randolph/Biedrins frontline, but I guess he doesn’t like playing young players like Randolph.
by Precise Films Productions on Jul 18, 2010 4:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Last year, the Randolph/Biedrins front line was rarely healthy enough suit up. Tough to expect them to run when they’re wearing suits and ties at the end of the bench.
Or in Randolph's case
Couldn’t be bothered to show up and sit on the bench.
Not like he wasn’t getting paid or something…
by WillyWhiteShoes on Jul 19, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
There was a “Randolph isn’t even showing up” meme that got started sometime mid season. It didn’t seem to die even when several people pointed out that he was showing up at games. Randolph was at most of the games after Nellie’s comment about how injured players needed to start showing up. He had a place in the row right behind the bench.
Yup
After the comments about AR being at a club and stuff, I always looked for him and dont remember him not sitting behind the bench at home games. obviously for away games they wouldn’t have the injured guys travel with the tema.
Bring in Erik Spoelstra and Kevin Pritchard!
by Badly Browned on Jul 21, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
team*
Bring in Erik Spoelstra and Kevin Pritchard!
by Badly Browned on Jul 21, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
one of the beat writers
Thompson II or Simmons, i.i.r.c., reported that Riley was quite concerned about the report of Randolph chillin’ in a club on a game night, and he quickly instituted a team rule requiring attendance by injured players at the games, injury treatment or therapy the only acceptable excuse.
A bit too much melodrama has accompanied Randolph’s career, to my taste, though it seems the majority of fans enjoy it, perhaps it’s the hoops equivalent of gossip chat rooms or ‘reality’ shows. The NY scene has a huge potential for melodrama, so he should thrive it that aspect at least.
I posted this in another thread but thought it is in line with this thread too
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2010/7/17/1574591/ws-at-a-crossroad-team-building
A) The coach hire. This is perhaps the most important step in Warriors acquiring credibility.
I disagree. This is a supplemental step in gaining credibility. You need to look further up top. Lacob needs to hire a good president first. Then that president, together with Lacob, need to assess the GM position. Then Lacob, the president, and the GM need to figure out what to do with the coaching position.
I think it’s too late to make a coaching change right now. There are too many pieces in place for this season to be coached by Don Nelson. This is his last year, let him coach the damn team.
Everyone’s concern is small ball, no defense, and charming his way to another contract or injecting his poison into the organization.
But what everyone needs to consider is that he’s done coaching after this season (and no way Lacob will allow him to be back for more), the players like Don Nelson and have already bought into being coached by him.
Larry Riley has constructed a team that discourages small ball, but I think everyone’s concern about small ball is a little overstated. I believe Don Nelson reverts to small ball because it just happens to be that the available players are small and a traditional lineup isn’t possible and/or conducive to Don Nelson’s plan.
I believe the current roster (with a few more tweaks) is conducive to Don Nelson’s style and will be an improvement (perhaps 8th seed).
I believe bringing in a new coach will be a step backwards with the current roster unless this new coach can adopt Don Nelson’s system while implementing his own system. That reduces the amount of coaches available to do that.
The bottom line for me is that this coming season needs to be a step forward in the win column to parallel the excitement of having a new owner and vision. I believe a complete overhaul at this point wouldn’t achieve that. If the new owner was approved and fully operational by the time the playoffs ended, I might think differently.
I can’t dispute that the team needs a new vision beyond Don Nelson. It is important but it needs to be done right. What’s guaranteed is it’s Nelson’s last season as coach. Time needs to be taken throughout the 2011 season to make these decisions for the future of the Warriors. I just don’t think it should happen standing on one foot.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 18, 2010 1:31 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Larry Riley has constructed a team that discourages small ball, but I think everyone’s concern about small ball is a little overstated. I believe Don Nelson reverts to small ball because it just happens to be that the available players are small and a traditional lineup isn’t possible and/or conducive to Don Nelson’s plan.
I think it requires so selective memory to make this work.
Notice, for example, how even when they were suited up and available, how often chose to play, early in the season, Maggette at 4 despite having Randolph available. Yes, he was limited by injuries, especially later inthe season, but there’s no reason we couldn’t have seen more Biedrins-Turiaf, Biedrins-Randolph, and Turiaf-Randolph frontcourt pairings earlier in the season.
I can’t dispute that the team needs a new vision beyond Don Nelson. It is important but it needs to be done right. What’s guaranteed is it’s Nelson’s last season as coach. Time needs to be taken throughout the 2011 season to make these decisions for the future of the Warriors. I just don’t think it should happen standing on one foot.
I don’t understand this logic. Yes, any coach we hire could end up needing to be replaced. Every coaching hire is always a little risky. The problem is, if we don’t replace Nelson there is a 100% chance of us needing a new coach next year. If we do replace him, I don’t know what the odds are … but they’re a lot lower than 100%. A new hire MIGHT be the guy we need for the future. Nellie never will be.
I think it requires so selective memory to make this work.
Notice, for example, how even when they were suited up and available, how often chose to play, early in the season, Maggette at 4 despite having Randolph available. Yes, he was limited by injuries, especially later inthe season, but there’s no reason we couldn’t have seen more Biedrins-Turiaf, Biedrins-Randolph, and Turiaf-Randolph frontcourt pairings earlier in the season.
Yeah, I considered that as well. There were other reasons why Don Nelson didn’t play Randolph, for example, when he was available. This just goes back to my belief that Nelson didn’t play him because he wasn’t ready to contribute the way Nelson wanted him to.
I don’t understand this logic. Yes, any coach we hire could end up needing to be replaced. Every coaching hire is always a little risky. The problem is, if we don’t replace Nelson there is a 100% chance of us needing a new coach next year. If we do replace him, I don’t know what the odds are … but they’re a lot lower than 100%. A new hire MIGHT be the guy we need for the future. Nellie never will be.
I feel that Nelson is the right coach for this team right now. I feel that a coaching decision needs to be made in parallel with roster decisions. The current roster decisions are based on Nelson coaching the team. As Riley says, this is his “vision.”
I feel it would be too late into this off-season to make significant changes in the FO and coaching staff because Lacob can’t officially make those decisions until September or so. By that time, the current GSW team, including coaches and players, will be working together for 2010 – 2011. I mean, there’s a reason why there is summer league, training camp, and pre-season. Everyone needs to be familiar with what’s going on.
I advocate a coaching change, but it has to be a good one, not just one made for the sake of making one. I understand that sometimes you need to take one-step back in order to take two-steps forward. I fully support that.
Ultimately, I will accept whatever Lacob & Co. decide on, but my gut tells me that he wants to do his due diligence on making sound decisions regarding the coaching staff and front office (perhaps he’s already done it) so the transition from what the team is now can be smooth to what the team will be in the future.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions
The current roster decisions are based on Nelson coaching the team.
Actually, this is not true. Nelson has not been very involved int he team this offseason, because, as Riley said around draft day, everybody knows the team is building for the future and Nellie isn’t that future. Udoh is not a Nelson’s vision pick. Not even close.
I feel it would be too late into this off-season to make significant changes in the FO and coaching staff because Lacob can’t officially make those decisions until September or so. By that time, the current GSW team, including coaches and players, will be working together for 2010 – 2011. I mean, there’s a reason why there is summer league, training camp, and pre-season. Everyone needs to be familiar with what’s going on.
But the regular season doesn’t start until late October. Obviously, a new coach needs to be in place before the preseason (and I can’t figure out when training camp opens). Usually the first preseason games are in the first week of October, and training camp opens a week or two before that.
That means a new-coach hired in mid September has plenty of time to get ready, especially if he knows in advance that he’s going to be hired but it isn’t announced until then.
I assume that Lacob is beginnign the process of talking to potential GMs so that they can step in one the day the team becomes officially his. That’s what I’d do. And with that GM being able to do his legwork (moving to the bay area, watching game tapes, etc) before then, I don’t see any reason why a coach couldn’t be hired within a week of the new GM officially taking over. These guys SHOULDN"T be sitting on their hands just because the sale hasn’t closed yet.
Furthermore, because Nellie makes a lot of unconventional coaching choices, it may be hard to evaluate players so well if they’re playing his system. In other words, we’re in a much better situation in the summer of 2011 if we HAVEN’T been playing Nellie ball all 2010.
I mean, what if Nellie continues to refuse to reign Monta in? You have to admit that it’s a possibility. In that case, we go into next offseason not knowing in Monta needs to be traded or if he can be effective, and we have no choice but to go into the 2011-12 season with him as the 2-guard.
On the other hand, if we bring in a more conventional system, and a coach who’s willing to be more particular about what Monta does with the ball, then we’ll know: either Monta can do it, and we keep him because we’ve got a great offensive 2-guard, or Monta can’t do it, and we need to arrange a trade.
But we’re less likely to know if they play nellie-ball all year (and remember, its very hard to switch systems mid-year so we will be playing it all year.)
Actually, this is not true. Nelson has not been very involved int he team this offseason, because, as Riley said around draft day, everybody knows the team is building for the future and Nellie isn’t that future. Udoh is not a Nelson’s vision pick. Not even close.
Given their relationshipship and based on Riley’s comments, I think he’s both put together a roster that Nelson can have success with while eliminating the things that Nelson has a habit of reverting to.
These guys SHOULDN’T be sitting on their hands just because the sale hasn’t closed yet.
I agree but we don’t know what “these guys” are thinking or doing. For all we know, they have busy lives and don’t want to commit to anything until the ink is dry (both on the sale approval and their contracts). No one works for free, IMO. I don’t know and with all due respect, you don’t know.
Furthermore, because Nellie makes a lot of unconventional coaching choices, it may be hard to evaluate players so well if they’re playing his system.
He tends to make unconventional choices when he has an unconventional roster. This roster now seems more along the lines of conventional.
On the other hand, if we bring in a more conventional system, and a coach who’s willing to be more particular about what Monta does with the ball, then we’ll know: either Monta can do it, and we keep him because we’ve got a great offensive 2-guard, or Monta can’t do it, and we need to arrange a trade.
Wait, but Nelson is the one that has groomed Monta to be that player we all know he can be and he coached him in 2007 – 2008 when he had his best year efficiency-wise where he played off the ball.
But we’re less likely to know if they play nellie-ball all year (and remember, its very hard to switch systems mid-year so we will be playing it all year.)
You’re assigning “Nellie-ball” as “small-ball.” I’m sure he will play some small-ball, but he also has different players now so he doesn’t have to play that way all the time. My definition of “Nellie-ball” is uptempo and high-scoring, not small lineups. I think it’s easy for us to accept it that way simply because that’s what we’ve seen most recently.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
You’re assigning "Nellie-ball" as "small-ball." I’m sure he will play some small-ball, but he also has different players now so he doesn’t have to play that way all the time. My definition of "Nellie-ball" is uptempo and high-scoring, not small lineups. I think it’s easy for us to accept it that way simply because that’s what we’ve seen most recently.
Please name the last team Nellie coached where he ran two conventional bigs on the floor at once.
Maybe the Webber-Seikaly Warriors?
Dirk, when Nellie was coach, really played a 3’s game even though he lined up as his team’s 4. You can call that a “conventional” lineup but to do so ignores what was unique about Dirk’s game, and the way he was used.
Since Nellie and Nash left, Dirk has played a lot closer to the basket, and, quite frankly, been better for it.
Please name the last team Nellie coached where he ran two conventional bigs on the floor at once.
Maybe the Webber-Seikaly Warriors?
Dirk, when Nellie was coach, really played a 3’s game even though he lined up as his team’s 4. You can call that a "conventional" lineup but to do so ignores what was unique about Dirk’s game, and the way he was used.
Since Nellie and Nash left, Dirk has played a lot closer to the basket, and, quite frankly, been better for it.
Well, Webber and Seikaly never played (sob).
Does Webber/Victor Alexander count? :)
How about Biedrins/Harrington/Sjax/J-Rich/Baron? That’s as conventional as you can get with the roster he had.
Will Biedrins/Lee be conventional? I see no reason why he won’t play those guys together.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Randolph was injured most of the year, and ineffective when he played.
He was playing better and getting more minutes, but then he got hurt. You can’t play Tolliver 48 minutes a night.
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 21, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You look for the BEST coach you can land in the next two years...
… and keep Nelly until that coach is available. Do not, do not, do NOTsettle for an unproven young coach with “potential.”
It’s a decent lineup, and if:
- Ellis keeps his head straight
- Andris returns to form
Nelly can make this a very fun season with a shot to be in the mix at 7,8 with Portland, Denver, Phoenix, etc.. Need health, and a decent move with the remaining cap space, MLE, TPE, etc..
Make it more fun? Bring back one of Nelly’s favorite players, who loves Nelly:
Matt Barnes.
All that happens, and I’m watching EVERY game I can. Save up my nickels for a jersey or two. Bum invites on other folks tickets, even. ;-)
by WillyWhiteShoes on Jul 18, 2010 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed!!!! David Lee, Steph Curry, and Nellie should make a great team.
It is very similar to what Nellie had in Dallas with Nash and Dirk. This was before they were the superstars they are now.
Dallas didn’t have anyone on the roster to match Monta’s individual production, however Finley/Jo.Howard/Ma.Daniels probably better than Monta/Reggie/DWright.
Biedrins is better than whoever they had at center LaFrentz, Bradley, Dampier I think. CJ is comparable to Van Exel as well.
It would just be foolish to just blow this up. This team is built for Nellie to coach, he stuck through it last year, he deserves a better send off. Let him have a year with this squad. Riley has done nothing but make positive moves since becoming GM. Keep him. Fire Rowell, that will never change….
by myk on Jul 18, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I want Barnes back so bad.
Apparently he even contacted the W’s to see if they were interested. He would be a great fit at the 3.
by Billy Frijoles on Jul 21, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Another dose of "common sense", Thx Doc/Willy&myk.
1.0 Patience..the new organisation/credibility begins from the top down.
2.0 The new coach is step 3 ,not step 1……hopefully not too young/inexperienced is brought in after the new president and management team.
3.0 No need to blow this team up this season. Any rebuilding will be incremental within realistic perameters rather than reactionary/show moves.
4.0 Evaluate what we have after a normal healthy year.
5.0 Every future move is part of a well thought out realistic strategy/gameplan.
by Only In Fairfax on Jul 19, 2010 9:42 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Ownership will need to determine whether Riley and Nellie can play out the season or need to be replaced immediately, but blowing the roster up makes no sense at all. The team is in a very favorable position in terms of potential lineups, salary structure, and tradeability of it’s various higher-salaried parts. We have a lot of flexibility, for which Riley deserves credit. Blowing the team up would be a reactionary move with no purpose other than showing the fanbase and the rest of the league that there’s a new sheriff in town. Fire Rowell immediately, let the situation determine the next move.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
by Supafishal on Jul 19, 2010 10:37 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Random
but watching highlights of the We Believe team is depressing! I still can not believe we managed to blow that up so quickly. Thats why Baron Jax and Al wanted to leave. They saw something special and watched our FO destroy it.
Actually Baron wanted to stay, deal was in place and Rowell nixed it. Jax wanted to stay. Then for some reason he fired his agent and went over The GMs head and negotiated his extension with Rowell. The only thing they did right with jackson and that contract is they were up front with him about the team being in rebuilding and he told them he was down and wanted to stay and help. Then changed his mind. Al was never great on the Warriors. Even during we believe he was very streaky.
by dannyschmanny on Jul 20, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Here's the problem with "waiting" -
First of all, Nelson is not going to be the coach of this team after 2010-11, no matter what … and that raises issues. There’s a reason why coaches very rarely are asked to coach out their “lame duck” year, why contract extensions are negotiated before the final year of a contract … simply put: it is very hard for a short-timer to impose meaningful discipline, since the players KNOW he’s gone. They can ride him out.
And once players lose discipline, the whole team can fall apart in a hurry. For what it’s worth, Nellie has been HORRIBLE with player discipline since Baron’s last year here.
Without getting into the various reasons why I think Nellie has lost it, I want to point out something else:
There is very little practice time available during the season. Therefore, the majority of the team’s offensive and defense scheme are put in place in training camp.
So when you bring a coach in midseason, you’re basically limping along the rest of the year, since the new coach can’t fully implement his own ideas.
The Warriors are likely to be vastly improved this season simply because they’re healthy and have better players. (An improving Curry, a legit player at the 4). Most coaches don’t affect winning that much one way or the other.
But why even consider spending a year with a lame-duck coach? What advantage is there to it? Even if you think Nellie has been a great coach, shouldn’t we start the process of moving forward, of building a core focused on game-play principles which will be emphasized for years to come?
In other words, even without it being a commentary on Nellie’s current coaching abilities, there are good reasons for him not to be our coach this year.
Let’s move forward. Time for someone new.
Discipline
What is your definition of “discipline?” Is it discipline on or off the court? For example, Baron Davis chucked up a lot of 3’s which I considered poor discipline on the court. Same as Stephen Jackson complaining to officials after every non-call and getting a technical. As far as off the court discipline, I don’t see that being the coach’s responsibility, but I don’t think that’s what you’re alluding to. Correct me if I’m wrong.
And once players lose discipline, the whole team can fall apart in a hurry. For what it’s worth, Nellie has been HORRIBLE with player discipline since Baron’s last year here.
Was that Nelson’s fault or the front office’s fault? I thought Nelson commanded a lot of respect from his players up until Baron left.
There is very little practice time available during the season. Therefore, the majority of the team’s offensive and defense scheme are put in place in training camp.
So when you bring a coach in midseason, you’re basically limping along the rest of the year, since the new coach can’t fully implement his own ideas.
Exactly why Lacob & Co. shouldn’t make any changes now.
Most coaches don’t affect winning that much one way or the other.
I disagree. What about Scott Brooks taking over P.J. Carlisimo or Larry Brown taking over the Detroit Pistons?
But why even consider spending a year with a lame-duck coach? What advantage is there to it?
The advantage is to give Lacob more time to do the proper due diligence to put into place a good management and coaching staff while enjoying what is looking to be a pretty decent season. Why throw away the opportunity to make some noise like we did in 2007?
Even if you think Nellie has been a great coach, shouldn’t we start the process of moving forward, of building a core focused on game-play principles which will be emphasized for years to come?
Yes, and that process starts with a team president, not the coach. You’re dismissing the poison injected into the franchise by Cohan and Rowell. In this case, we shouldn’t be working backwards, we need to work from the top down. New owner is in place, so that’s step 1.
If you bypass the benefits of having a collaborative effort in making coaching and roster decisions, then you’re setting yourself up for conflict. There should be a vision and it should start from the top (Lacob). If Lacob bypasses this by hiring a coach himself, he’s doing exactly what Rowell did when he bypassed Mullin for various GM duties.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Disicpline
Is it discipline on or off the court? For example, Baron Davis chucked up a lot of 3’s which I considered poor discipline on the court. Same as Stephen Jackson complaining to officials after every non-call and getting a technical.
By discipline I mean executing the game plan according to the coaches wishes. Over the past several seasons, we’ve seen Baron, Jackson, and Monta all basically mail in large parts of what might reasonably be expected of them by the coach (Baron defensively, Jackson and Monta by dominating the ball too much to the team’s detriment).
When a team has good discipline, the players listen attentively to the coach when he draws up a play. They don’t show him up with their body language. They play with consistent effort on both ends of the floor. The execute the offense the way they’re supposed to.
I don’t hold the coach responsible for the team’s off-court behavior. Nor do I hold him responsible for a player having an occasional temper tantrum. By discipline I simply mean executing what you’re supposed to execute with good effort on the floor.
With this defintion, it should be clear that it’s the coach’s fault.
Exactly why Lacob & Co. shouldn’t make any changes now.
Huh? It’s the offseason. Now is the time when you can’t make changes. You have to explain this more clearly.
If you bypass the benefits of having a collaborative effort in making coaching and roster decisions, then you’re setting yourself up for conflict. There should be a vision and it should start from the top (Lacob). If Lacob bypasses this by hiring a coach himself, he’s doing exactly what Rowell did when he bypassed Mullin for various GM duties.
I fail to see why any of this would involve “bypassing” getting a team president and GM in place.
As I indicated above, the GM search could and should already be going on. Lacob should already be in the process of having discussions with Riley to help him make up his mind about whether or not he needs to keep Riley.
Just because these decisions can’t be made official yet doesn’t mean that the wheels aren’t turning behind the scenes.
I mean, if you just bought the team, would YOU wait until it became official to start having those conversations?
Huh? It’s the offseason. Now is the time when you can’t make changes. You have to explain this more clearly.
I did explain it already in one of my posts above.
As I indicated above, the GM search could and should already be going on. Lacob should already be in the process of having discussions with Riley to help him make up his mind about whether or not he needs to keep Riley.
Just because these decisions can’t be made official yet doesn’t mean that the wheels aren’t turning behind the scenes.
I mean, if you just bought the team, would YOU wait until it became official to start having those conversations?
Yeah, if the process has already started of bringing in a president and GM, then I see no reason why their vision can’t be realized right away. But, I do think that they need official time in the driver’s seat to evaluate the current product’s performance before assigning a coach. Let’s just presume that the roster stays healthy and Nelson is able to have a successful year…and by successful I mean that the players are buying into Nelson’s system and everyone is “disciplined.” When was the last time a coaching change was made just because? I just don’t see it happening.
First of all, it would be disrespectful to the players and second of all, as much as Nelson deserves criticism, it would be disrespectful to a person of Nelson’s stature (not trying to build him up or anything, but he’s been around a long time and there is something to be said about that). Hey, if Lacob says “screw all that, I know what I want and I don’t care about anyone’s feelings getting hurt,” then I’m all for it. Do I think it’ll happen, no.
So, I think we are in some agreement. Like I said, I will support whatever Lacob decides to do because I have no choice. He has no history that says the decision will be right or wrong.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
and by successful I mean that the players are buying into Nelson’s system and everyone is "disciplined." When was the last time a coaching change was made just because? I just don’t see it happening.
In other words, you admit that after this season it might be harder to let go of Nellie despite the fact that he’s pushing 70, and that’s a reason to keep him?
In other words, you admit that after this season it might be harder to let go of Nellie despite the fact that he’s pushing 70, and that’s a reason to keep him?
LOL
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
In other words, even without it being a commentary on Nellie’s current coaching abilities, there are good reasons for him not to be our coach this year.
Sure but there are better reasons, IMO (all stated throughout this thread), to keep him for one last year.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 19, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Nelson
I think you’re analysis of Don Nelson is spot on. However, while attributes such as shooting and basketball IQ are important for winning, this is a far different game than it was when Nelson was playing the game.
If you’re preventing your team from big, athletic players just because they lack “shooting and basketball IQ”, then you’re likely preventing your team from playing defense and getting rebounds. In today’s game, you need size and athleticism to win.
Sure you can hide some defensive deficiencies sometimes (like at PG with Nash, Curry), but if you’re playing Corey Maggette at C just because your bigs can’t play point-forward, then you’re not going to win any championships in this league.
I can understand where Nelson is coming from, and I can understand why it would be hard for him to change his mindset. But his vision and the kind of team he wants to build would play very pretty basketball, but would also give up 120 points per game.
"We Deserve"
Great post
Don’t agree with it all, but in general, I think you’re on the right track that the FO is assembling a team that works for Nelson but won’t get smoked defensively… I’ll forgive losing Azibuke since his knee will likely nullify his great D.
The only problem is that he’ll probably go with Reggie Williams at the 3 and Dorell Wright at the 4, Lee at 5, and then it’s the same JV vs. Varsity feel as last year where we get destroyed by average Cs and PFs simply due to size.
Just want to say what a great move the Maggette salary dump was. Too bad we didn’t do it last year as it would have allowed AR to prove his worth.
but how
would AR have proved his worth? he got injured before the start of the season when they had decided he would be the starter. He became the starter and couldnt stay on the floor because he played so out of control he would get into foul trouble really quickly, and then he got injured again for the rest of the season. I think you are forgetting that when Maggette played Center some last year we had no roster or bench. (aside from Curry who was still finding his game, Monta and D-Leaguers).
by dannyschmanny on Jul 20, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s sort of funny to see this post in the “recommended” section of this site. Don’t get me wrong. I completely agree with every argument made above, but there has been such an unceasing barrage of anti-Nelson sentiment around here I’m wondering who is left to “rec” it.
There is one more argument I would like to add, however, in favor waiting on a coaching change: What is the alternative? Let’s take a look:
Jeff Van Gundy: Do I need to say anything here? This guy is all about D and the Warriors roster is all about running.
Patrick Ewing: Do I need to say anything here? He’s a defensive minded, post-player specialist that has never been a head coach at any level, and was really only hired to mentor Dwight Howard.
Mark Jackson: Do I need to say anything here? We’ve all heard him talk enough as a color commentator to know he’s a little slow. Also, he’s never coached. Mama, there goes that horrible coaching candidate…
Mike Fratello: I will abstain from repeating my opening line, but come on! He’s old, and he’s been making good money working way less as a TV guy.
Eric Mussleman: Hahahahahahaha! Just kidding!
In summation: Qualified coaches predisposed to coach an up-tempo NBA team are not out there.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 20, 2010 9:42 PM PDT reply actions
Patrick Ewing
doesn’t really come across as particularly bright or articulate (did he graduate from Georgetown?), and didn’t show high hoops i.q. when he was a player. NY was fond of him for his effort and competitiveness, not for his smarts.
Eric Mussleman: Hahahahahahaha! Just kidding!
He’s actually a pretty good coach, we just din’t give him a fair chance.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 20, 2010 9:48 PM PDT reply actions
Oh, don’t get me wrong. I would be open to the idea of bringing him back, but that would just never, ever happen…ever.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 20, 2010 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions

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