David Lee for Anthony Randolph if Lebron James doesn't go to NY
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over 1 year ago
dj fuzzylogic
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Hmm...
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the W’s don’t make anymore big moves until they have the basic terms of the sale ironed out.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Agreed
Though I 100% support this trade. The idea of having two of the leagues best rebounding bigs in NBA starting in Warriors front court is almost unbelievable.
Lees 20 ppg and 3.6 apg are nice add-ons as well
I'm in support of no moves until new ownership.
Sounds like another move to make us just good enough to miss out on a playoff trip and too high to hope for the #1.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Thank You!
I hate being in that position. We either need to be really goodor really bad, no more in between!
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Please sell the team Chris Cohan
Future of the Dubs: SC30, AR4
Chris Webber/Tom Gugliotta PART TWO
Please don’t do this Cohan. Just leave us alone, we’ve suffered enough.
this is in NO way Webber for Gugliotta
a 20 year old Rookie webber averaged 17,6 ppg, 9.1 rpg, and 3.6 apg while leading Warriors (yes he LED them) to there onl 50 game season. On what planet has Randolph done anything resembling that?
More like David Lee is Chris Webber and Anthony Randolph is Tom Gugliotta
but this in no way is like that trade
"I don't lift weights because they are heavy, and I don't run because it makes me tired." - Charles Barkley
TURRIBLE!
meant it in more in the way...
Randolph is shipped off because he doesn’t get along with Nelson (a la Webber). He goes off and has a stellar 12-15 year career.
While Lee comes here plays decent but fans/media continue to compare him to Randolph. It gets to his head he doesn’t help the Warriors past mediocrity and is shipped off within 3 years. Thus the Warriors lose a top 5 PF for a decade and are left saying “we’re a big man away”.
by LarryBudd on Jul 7, 2010 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol AR is a top 5 pf?
players rarely extrapolate their stats/ability to such lofty extremes. For every player who does, there’s a dozen or so who fail
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 7:55 PM PDT up reply actions
David Lee for Anthony Randolph if Lebron James doesn't go to NY
This is a little misleading. You should put a question mark on the end of it. Marcus didn’t say that this is going to happen if they don’t get LeBron, he said that they are “in the game”. The Nets coould want Lee and offer him a max deal, or the Wolves, Jazz, or Suns could trade for him.
What others have said is the Warriors are the favorites because we actually
have the perfect combination of Expirings and players they want in a trade. Regardless of whar The Wolves, Jazz or Suns can do. They actually like our package better…. hehhehe I said package.
Set a record by getting banned for the 8th time!
After rehab I saw the light and promise to be kinder and gentler!
Probation is a very slippery slope!
by StinkyFingers on Jul 7, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Please No!!!!
Lee’s stats are inflated on a bad team playing against a weak east in D’Antoni’s system. We dont need a repeat of the Dunmurphy Sisters!!!
For the Record, I think the Dub’s should never have put the bay bridge on the warriors new logo. Too suggestive to go jump off it
Totally incorrect statement.
Under three different coaches with completely different systems, Lee just does what he does. Score at a remarkably efficient clip and rebound the crap out of the ball. Now, the PPG totals go up and down as the pace adjusts, but Lee’s quality as a player is not up for question.
"My father's name is art, and my name's pride, and while my destiny reads a recipe for confusion I'm looking for whoever writes, so empty inside." -Slug
…Lee’s quality as a player is not up for question.
You’re right. Lee is unequivocally a good face-up scorer, passes well out of the post, and couldn’t stop your grandma from getting to the rim.
0.5BPG
THE END
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions
And randolph can? He gets faked out by a mannequin.
by bleep on Jul 7, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
So would you rather have someone who can't do anything on defense
Or a great shot blocker?
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
I think you mean
would you rather have someone who is a very good offensive player with exceptional rebounding skills on a weak rebounding team, or a very good shot blocker who could end up being only that. I would prefer the former.
I'm with Pino
I’d rather have the insanely efficient scorer who is the best Pick N’ Roll player in the NBA who rebounds at an insane rate, than a shot-blocker who may or may not become an above league-average player.
"My father's name is art, and my name's pride, and while my destiny reads a recipe for confusion I'm looking for whoever writes, so empty inside." -Slug
best Pick N’ Roll player in the NBA
Says who?AR is already IMO and above average player who should be playing 30 minutes a night
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
says hoopdata, ESPN Insider
what support do you have for your assertions? your magic eye?
Tom Haberstroh
Lee could be nice bargain this summer
"In his first three seasons in New York, Lee developed a reputation as a cleanup artist on the block without a complementary midrange game. That all changed this past season when he shot nearly 400 jumpers between 16 and 23 feet — more than his first three seasons combined — and ranked among the league leaders with a 43.4 percent conversion rate, according to Hoopdata.com. Lee unlocked his scoring potential just in time for free agency, which should allow teams with elite point guards to target him as a versatile screen counterpart and not just a glorified rebounder. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Lee is already one of the best pick-and-roll big men in the business, averaging 1.31 points after receiving the ball on a pick-and-roll, better than any of his counterparts in free agency. (That efficiency rate helps refute arguments that his stats are inflated by Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni’s system.) … Up to this point, Lee sounds as though he’s worth a max contract. However, as is the case with Boozer and Stoudemire, Lee’s defensive liabilities eclipse much of his offensive firepower. … But after considering the splash premium that Stoudemire likely will receive, Lee could be a real bargain this summer. By many measures, including John Hollinger’s player efficiency rating, Lee even ranks as the better player of the two. And that’s before one considers Lee’s spotless injury record."
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
If he was such a good pick and roll guy (not doubting he isn't , the number ARE efficient)
Why wasn’t he used more in it? In his opportunities he got he did well, but I wonder why he wasn’t used more in it.
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
quick, name a NYK point guard!
bet you can’t! cuz i can’t either. that could be one reason.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Sergio Rodriguez
And Nate Rob, quick enough?
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
k so point being maybe it's cuz he played with crap pgs
that he didn’t get utilized in pick and rolls much
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
That doesn't mean they can't utilize it
How good they run it? Yes, how much they run it? Probably not in a Dantoni offense
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
and then he got benched. who replaced him!
haha
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Toney Douglas
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
And he's pretty good
That was pretty quick too
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
Wow. If you enjoy watching Lee’s game, go check out your local city league. They have 6’-something guys that hustle and know what a pick and roll is too.
The NBA is about players with rare size and athleticism that happen to be able to play basketball, not the other way around. There are pre-teens with Lee’s skill-set. That’s not to say he isn’t a good NBA player. He is. He has decent size for his position, has a good all-around face-up game, and he’s a great rebounder at the highest level. His defense, however, leaves a lot to be desired and a large part of that is his inability to challenge and block shots.
Nevertheless, the krux of my argument does not hinge on some attempt at a side-by-side evaluation. What I’m talking about is more fundamental: Do you really want to watch someone as defensively inept as Lee, night after night? Are you familiar with the players that have played the 4 for the Warriors since Webber’s first stint? I’ll give you a hint: Antawn Jamison, a perfect example of a player physically unsuited to defend NBA bigs, is probably the best one.
Aren’t you sick of watching guys in Warriors jersey’s get dunked on?
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions
OK. Well in a few years maybe we can have a conversation about that. Meanwhile, can I be allowed to be compensated for having sat through Troy Murphy, Terry Cummings, Chris Gatling, Jason Caffey, Danny Fortson, and Marc Jackson, just to name the guys that come immediately to mind.
Winning basketball…wow…
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not talking about who is better. Am I? I’m talking about players I hated watching, for a plethora of reasons.
With that in mind: Do I enjoy watching David Lee play? A little. He is very below average physically but he’s without question one of the best PFs in the league. Nevertheless, as stated above, I’m sick of watching unathletic and/or undersized bigs on the Warriors. It’s a matter of preference.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing about Warriors is that we've seen plenty of bad basketball players
Slow, unathletic bigs? Check.
Athletic guys who can’t turn it into meaningful production? Check.
Guys who have all the tools who seem to be missing some key gene? Check.
sigh.
You know what I'm sick of?
Watching losing teams.
And I think a guy like David Lee can change that. He does things that we don’t do well (rebound, score buckets efficiently), and he does them as well as anybody in the NBA.
Personally, I think your completely overselling his lack of athleticism and his poor defense. Go back and check draftexpress and look at how “unathletic” his measurements were. Or, see some defensive metrics that insanely smart people devise to see just how bad a defender he is (direct link to spreadsheet).
Warrior fans have such an obsession with “potential” that they sometimes miss the forest for the trees. I think that if Biedrins plays like he did in 08-09, Curry proves that he really can run the point, and we add David Lee, the Warriors can make the playoffs in the west.
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
I hate to beat a dead horse here, but 0.4 career BPG is a deal-breaker for me. I’m not suggesting anything beyond that vis-a-vis defense. Just let that number stew in your mind for a while. You know who averaged 0.4 BPG last season for the Warriors? Monta Ellis.
Lee is a great player, and I’d be hard pressed to bet AR will ever be as good, but I still would rather see the Warriors pass on this deal.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Lee is a great player, and I’d be hard pressed to bet AR will ever be as good, but I still would rather see the Warriors pass on this deal.
This absolutely kills me. Really? You don’t think AR will ever be as good, but you don’t want to pull the trigger on this?
I think you’re completely overrating the value of a blocked shot. Basically, a blocked shot just means the other team missed, only difference is that it actually DOESN’T go to the defense as often.
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
Blocked shots are not the only reason I’m against this trade. That is simply a really good reason to be against it!
Obviously Lee is older, the financial obligation to him will be far more of a risk than what they’re spending on AR, and, of course, beyond shot-blocking, he is a totally ineffective defender (unless you subscribe to the fringe Nelson philosophy wherein rebounds are part of defense). Then, beyond that, there is the fact that Wright and Udoh are sitting on the bench behind him, etc.
In summation: Boo.
p.s. 0.4 career BPG!!!
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions
The question becomes:
If you admit you don’t think AR will be as good as Lee, and you don’t want to make this trade, I have a simple question.
What’s your plan for improving the team?
I’ve decided that “hoping to win the lottery in a year when there’s a true NBA superstar available” is not a viable plan. Therefore, I’d like to see the team make talent-gaining trades, solidify its base, and build a winning culture while looking for aggressive moves to improve the team. Trading for David Lee seems to fit that plan.
Whereas hanging onto AR, when it seems an under-even-money proposition that he’ll be as good as Lee, strikes me as hoping lightning strikes.
The lottery aside, do you really want these “talent-gaining trades” made presumably right before the team is sold and the Jerry West regime could potentially be calling the shots?
As far as a plan beyond that: Stay young a la the Thunder. Build around Curry, AR, and hopefully Buike, Morrow, Wright, Beans and Monta.
To me the key is to keep a holding pattern and evaluate the talent they couldn’t last year, and go from there. The exception? Monta. His future is uncertain, he’s not cheap, and he may have some value. If you can trade him or one of the old guys, go for it.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:59 PM PDT up reply actions
The Thunder's plan doesn't work without Durant.
And Durant doesn’t happen unless you hit the jackpot balls in the lottery in the right year.
I think Seattle’s approach makes sense if and only if you already have the player who you think is that superstar. On the other hand, I think Seatle might have been able to beat the Lakers if they are willing to trade for an older, more experienced rebounder, which they considered but passed on.
I definitely see some value in letting the new regime make the decisions. On the other hand, I don’t think adding Jerry West instantly makes us great. I think it’s more likely that making us better gives Jerry West (or some other well-qualified GM) more tools with which to pursue his vision.
“Building around AR” doesn’t make sense unless you think he’s likely to become a top player. If that’s not an even-money proposition, and you can trade for a very good player, then that trade is in line with building around Curry.
What if Curry is our Durant? He isn’t likely to score as much, but his projected upper ceiling is extremely high. Then, for a low price you evaluate how AR and Wright play next season, and go for a mid-season deal if applicable. Of, course, this involves how Beans pans out as well. In other words, you have to find some combination of players that constitute that “post presence” everyone keeps going on about. As far as Lee goes, he doesn’t fit the bill either.
With regard to West, I was obviously being speculative, but I am generally in favor of having personnel decisions be made by the people that are likely going to be in charge of that fairly soon. If that turns out to be West and some fancy GM from Portland, I will be very pleased.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I absolutely, positively understand the idea of major basketball decisions NOT being made by Larry Riley.
On the other hand, I hate to pass up opportunities to improve the team.
It’s a difficult call.
are you saying
I should value Chris Anderson over Amare Stoudamire?
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
No
AR>Birdman first off
2nd AR is also a very very good rebounder. And has way more potential to become a better defender and offensive player. At 21 AR is a better defender than Lee is at 27, think about it.
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
look at your original question
maybe you should try to be more specific from the beginning. either that or not make stupid questions. either/or
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I never mention Andersen
Only AR opposed to Lee. Also Birdman has 0 potential IMO. Very different situation
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
Perfect thats what UDOH is for.. Thats why they call it a team!
Set a record by getting banned for the 8th time!
After rehab I saw the light and promise to be kinder and gentler!
Probation is a very slippery slope!
by StinkyFingers on Jul 7, 2010 7:51 PM PDT up reply actions
who needs blocks?
we have enough blocks? We led the league in blocking, we still sucked at defense. BPG and defensive relevance do not correlate
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually no we didn't lead in blocks this year
Block shots> Nothing
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
we led two years go
same difference, still bad.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you ever played basketball? Have you ever seen a game? If you’re too slow to contest a shot, you are a defensive liability. Shot-blocking is part of that. You can’t supplement your inability to jump or reach as high as someone else by simply boxing out and fronting guys, or whatever else constitutes good defense for an overmatched big.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
yes, i actually play a lot, i'm 6 foot 2 and i started at DE for my high school football team, so i have some athletic background
you don’t need to be quick to contest a shot, not in the post. You don’t even need to block the shot. Post play is disrupted by getting a hand in their face, not giving position, not allowing them to drop step, etc. Jumping is the least necessary element
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
Unless shot-blocking plays no part in defense, I don’t understand why you would try to discount it. It is part of defense. As far as denying position, Lee isn’t particularly strong either and isn’t known for that. He’s known as a poor defensive player.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Shot blocking just creates a missed shot
Unless you can grab that rebound, it’s not particularly useful. Every successful defensive possession ends in a rebound. This cannot be stressed enough.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Unless your point is that shot-blocking has no value, no one is arguing with you. Shot blocking is not the reason to be against this trade, but it is very much my reason and I suspect a lot of other long-time fans are also weary of bringing another undersized and/or unathletic big to GS.
I’m talking about something more important to me than winning basketball, because I haven’t come to expect that over the years: I’m talking about exciting basketball. If this sign-and-trade happens I expect the Warriors will have gotten the better of the deal, but I still don’t want to watch him.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Shot blocking is generally LESS valuable than steals.
You’d rather have a steal than a block. You’d rather have one fewer turnover than one more block.
I believe most people rate a block as being worth about half a possesion – half as much as a rebound, steal, or turnover. This is because about half of blocks are recovered by the offensive team (often because the block goes out of bounds, which doesn’t count as a rebound). There’s a psychological component to blocks which may be underrated, however.
So we’ve established that blocks have value. Cool. With that in mind, why am I supposed to think averaging 0.4 BPG for his career is negligible? All I’m arguing is that I dislike his poor shot-blocking, along with his general ineptitude on that end of the court.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Shot blocking is not the reason to be against this trade, but it is very much my reason
My point is that shot blocking is not a particularly good reason. It’s not a bad reason either. Just that it should be counted less than rebounding and defense in the equation. Yes, shot blocking is one component of defense, but you can be an excellent defender without blocking shots. Note: I am not saying that Lee is a good defender or that Randolph is a poor defender, just objectively looking at the statistics.
I suspect a lot of other long-time fans are also weary of bringing another undersized and/or unathletic big to GS.
He’s not oversized, but how is Lee undersized, exactly? He’s a PF, not a C. He’s listed at 6’9" 250. STAT is 6’10", 249. David West is 6’9", 240. All of the PFs I can find are in that range. Some maybe an inch taller than Lee, some 5 pounds heavier, some 15 pounds lighter. He’ll play PF here with Biedrins at C. He won’t be guarding Shaq or Dwight Howard. He’ll be guarding people his size… and killing them on the boards.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
1) If he plays on the Ws, he will start at Pf but play a lot at C. There is no question of that.
2) At the combine he measured under 6’8", so he’s a little short, and he’s also not very strong. Will he get a lot of rebounds? Sure. I would guess he would average even more than he did last year. The problem is that he is a terrible defender.
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by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 8, 2010 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Lee is not "known" as a poor defensive player
at least, not until this year. He was always considered a scrappy, effort player that suddenly “became” a poor defender. Usually, the people throwing around these phrases are people with very little basketball knowledge themselves, a la Tim Kawakami.
Then again, what do I know? I guess we’re all just throwing in our best guess. I don’t think the blocked shots are irrelevant; they are helpful in creating an intimidating defensive presence, but they don’t tell the whole story any more than the ability to dunk demonstrates one’s offensive ability.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
and here's to you showing us the way!!!
Set a record by getting banned for the 8th time!
After rehab I saw the light and promise to be kinder and gentler!
Probation is a very slippery slope!
by StinkyFingers on Jul 7, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank you Crappy ownership....
Riley…cant wait to get in a final F U to the Warriors faithful! For the love of God, sell this team to Ellison already!
Wow
I really think we are going to regret this down the road.
by randolphforpresident on Jul 7, 2010 4:39 PM PDT reply actions
AR sure is a polarizing figure here
I wouldn’t mind this trade actually.
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
There is no way Lee is an All Star in the West.
Randolph at least has potential…and even more I would say in a NON Don Nelson System.
Does he?
He has no post game. If he doesn’t have his elbow jumper he turns into Maggette and hopes to pick up the foul. All AR has really proved so far is the ability to grab rebounds, and Lee is just as apt at grabbing rebounds.
Right now AR strength is in transition, which is what Nellie’s system tries to promote does it not?
I wonder what the terms of the proposed deal are. Obviously it would have to be a S&T with more than just AR. The trade in the article does not look appetizing at all actually. Would they take AR + Monta for Lee? I would do that trade. :)
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Jul 7, 2010 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is one problem right there
Maggz may have gotten us points but he was counter productive to us…
with him getting to the line so much he slowed down the game so much and that is not what the warriors want i realized that throughout the season. This helped alot of other teams against us.
If we're trading AR, I wouldn't include Monta.
AR, Ronny, and Vlad is a take it or leave it offer. Hopefully they don’t take it however.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Lee would have to want to come here though, right? I think he would rather go to NJ or PHX.
by DubsFan408 on Jul 7, 2010 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
love the move
would do in a heartbeat.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 4:59 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
While I am not against trading Randolph....
It would need to be for something VERY good and I just dont consider David Lee THAT good.
I would actually like to see how a fitter, stronger Randolph does on this team under Curry’s leadership on the floor.
It was clear there were issues between Ellis and Randolph and if Monta is moving on, then I would like to give Randolph another year of development if no ‘perfect’ trade pieces present themselves and then re-evaluate whether to try to keep him next year…
It is a sad state of mankind, that in the modern age, we have no one with the common sense to think.... 'Lets install some shut off valves in this oil pipeline!'
You have evidence of a rift between them two?
You have evidence of monta being bad to his teammates other than when he said he could not play with curry?
Yes....
Monta was interviewed last year after a game and he made it quite clear that Randolph was not playing in the position that he was told to. There was clearly disatisfaction from Monta on MANY occasions toward Randolph, if you wish to take the time you can dig them up for yourself.
It is a sad state of mankind, that in the modern age, we have no one with the common sense to think.... 'Lets install some shut off valves in this oil pipeline!'
by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 7, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh but
you have quote of monta saying he was against randolph. All he said was that he was in the wrong place a young player making a court mistake wierd never heard that and nope no thanks i never read anything about a rift between the two ur opinion is yours though. I will wait until monta actually says it he did it to curry why not this time.
Listen... if you want to try and create something I didnt say..then spare me.
I said VERY CLEARLY that there were ‘issues’ between Ellis and Randolph, I saw it…MANY saw it, some even commented on it, if you choose not to hear that or agree with that then so be it, but nowhere did I say that Ellis was ‘Against’ Randolph and thus there is no quote!!!
A player getting cheesed off with another player not doing what they should be doing can easily be referred to as ‘Issues’….
It is a sad state of mankind, that in the modern age, we have no one with the common sense to think.... 'Lets install some shut off valves in this oil pipeline!'
by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 7, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
A player getting cheesed off with another player not doing what they should be doing can easily be referred to as ‘Issues’….
Clearly, Monta is just watching Nellie. He sees Nellie hating on Randolph and feel like he’s the captain and should hate Randolph too. Monta can’t yank Randolph off the court, so he does the only thing he can, bad mouth him to the media in the hopes that Nellie will yank Randolph off the court (which he probably has already done). Gosh! Why do the Warriors hate Randolph so much! All he wants to do is win gamez!!! And he puts up all these amazing stats and dunkz! And Bill Simmons likes him!!! BILL %$ING SIMMONS!!! Why don’t Nellie and Monta see this??!?!?!! Who cares about doing what you’re supposed to do so the team can function as a team!?!?! Randolphz is amazingz!!!!
On a serious note… Monta calling out Randolph is just Monta trying to be a captain. Two things:
1. Monta has a bit of a history of saying things he shouldn’t (See: Media Day).
2. Anybody who doesn’t think Randolph doesn’t get chewed out by the coaching staff for freelancing and ignoring plays is just being silly. If it’s gotten to the point where Monta’s so fed up about it that he needs to vent to the media… then yeah, Randolph’s “I’m gonna take this 20 footer” is getting a bit out of hand and he’s not responding to the coaching staff’s prodding. If Randolph isn’t responding to the coaching staff asking him to follow orders like the rest of the team… then I have doubts about his military upbringing.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Am I the only thing that thinks these "issues" are of no significance?
Well, at least going into this year they won’t be. If wee lil’ Tay’ can’t play nice with stick boy Anthony then our franchise really is screwed.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I can’t believe no one is placing the slightest blame on Randolph for these issues. He was the one out of position. By all accounts, that situation happens quite often. And yet the solution suggested seems to be to ship Monta out to placate Randolph. Unbelievable!
And still this whole thing means nothing!
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
And still this whole thing means nothing!
Yeah, in a game predicated on spacing, screens, and movement, it’s totally irrelevant if somebody continually positions himself where his teammates aren’t expecting him to be. It totally doesn’t effect their actions and ability to predict where the weaknesses in the defense are. You’re so right!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Not what I was referring to.
The “issues” between AR and Monta amount to pretty much nothing.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Those are the issues between Monta & AR
That Monta & AR have issues is irrelevant. Monta’s issue is that Randolph doesn’t properly position himself. If Randolph fixes that issue, then Monta issue with him goes away. But you can’t really separate the two. AR needs to fix his issues.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Do it, GS!
If you want different results, you’ve got to try different things. I’d honestly do it because while losing Randolph might hurt long-term, we get an immediate 20 ppg 10 rpg all-star power forward who has proven he can produce. It’ll help with our atrocious rebounding deficits and also help raise the Dubs’ status as league doormat to the point where other free agents won’t be as hesitant to want to come over.
A new coach and owner would be another step in the right direction, but a frontcourt with Lee and a healthy Beans has me salivating too.
Still have to address the 3
If (& thats a big if) we can get david lee, it is an obvious upgrade at the 4 over anyone we have on roster right now. Potential aside, I think we will be a better team for it in the short term. It also exposes a glaring vulnerability at the 3, seeing as AR can slide to the 3 when we are going big. Anyone have any ideas as to whom we could afford to start at the SF? I personally love Ronnie Brewer, but must admit my ignorance as to what type of salary a player such as he would command.
HE IS NO ALL STAR he was a reserve he would of never been on team without inuries. It’s like saying monta is a damn all star. Please don’t do this trade i am really hating this team. If they do this why don’t we just trade our pick each year because beside curry they never get to play. Belli nope, wright nope and if lee get’s here nope he still wont play will come off the stupid bench which don nelson doesnt care much for unless you can score twenty quick. AR let him play the man makes an impact when he feels comfortable on the court and does not have to worry that his first mistake he makes he wont see playing time for a few games. LEE is nothing better than a healthy biedrins. He got abused defensively by us last year. He had a huge game against big deal what scrub doesnt have a big game on us.
Please don’t do it please if they do i wish someone would go to the FO find riley and beat his behind. This is not his team as soon as we get new ownership if ever he will be gone quit screwing us up even more let the new FO and owner work with something geez.
I'm sorry and I know you like him, but....
Lee is certainly better than a healthy biedrins and if it was a straight swap trade Biedrins and Lee, then yes I think I would do it.
It is a sad state of mankind, that in the modern age, we have no one with the common sense to think.... 'Lets install some shut off valves in this oil pipeline!'
by BritWarriorGSW on Jul 7, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
actually no i am not in favor of biedrins right now
no lee is inflated with knicks
warriors inflate numbers to but there is more than one person here who can score biedrins would probably get close to
twenty a game there to. Lee scores only off of offensive boards and pick and roll same as biedrins only thing is here biedrins is not the main screener and we look to shoot with others
One thing I like about Lee is that he is a great pick and roll player to pair with Curry. One big difference between Lee and Biedrins (as well as any of our current PFs) is that Lee can set a pick and either roll inside or step out, because he has the range to hit jumpshots. Biedrins’ only option to score on a pick and roll is by rolling to the hoop.
um lee doesnt consistently hit that outside shot if we are going to trade for someone who is going to block out wrights
playing time they better have a low post game
Biedrins’ only option to score on a pick and roll is by rolling to the hoop.
And he does that pretty darn well… but yeah, I’d prefer the more versatile Lee. It’ll be interesting to see how those two coexist on offense. I suspect Nellie will do what he always does, play the matchups.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
And yet Lee is still a better PnR player.
1.3 PPP on the PnR was tops in the league last year.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
http://www.contracostatimes.com/sports/ci_15459742?nclick_check=1
Full story here I hope the link is okay.
by A'Seahawks_Warriors on Jul 7, 2010 5:08 PM PDT reply actions
The OP link would not work for me in the Google browser
so that’s why I linked.
by A'Seahawks_Warriors on Jul 7, 2010 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Links dont work if you put them in the title
Take my bags, not my top 3 pick!
"Winning is not enough. All others must lose." - Larry Ellison
by Badly Browned on Jul 7, 2010 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
if we get lee
ab has to be traded for a sf if not thats one big hole plus udoh out with a wrist injury the same as bell
If we trade Biendris after trading for Lee
we’ll have no one to play center. Wing is an easier position to find a serviceable guy.
agreed
there are at least 6-8 decent SF in next year’s draft, and maybe 1 good center (Kanter). Centers don’t grown on trees. SF kind of do these days.
Kanter seems more like a PF to me.
6’10’’ with a 7’ wingspan.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Do not support Turkey or Kanter.
"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 7, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
WTF
why trade our only center after gaining Lee? Isn’t the point to pair him up with AB?
I don’t know about you, but I sure as heck don’t want Lee playing C.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Beans + Lee = Terrible defense
Lee at center = Worse defense than terrible defense
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
If we trade Biedrins for a SF
who would play center?
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 7, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't think I suggested that in this scenario
But to answer the question it’d have to be Udoh
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
So Larry Riley and Don Nelson chose they’d rather trade Randolph at 2 million a year, and more production, than Ellis at 11 million, terrible defense, incohesive offense, and head case. I really will hate both of them if this goes through the way it is. Lee for Ellis is great. Randolph for Ellis makes me puke.
"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 7, 2010 5:26 PM PDT reply actions
He deserves a huge blame. Not the whole but a large piece of it.
"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 7, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
1st Team
PG – Curry
SG – Ellis
SF – Azubuike
PF – Lee
C – Biedrins
2nd Team
PG – Watson
SG – Morrow
SF – Williams
PF – Wright
C – Turiaf or Udoh/Tolliver if Ronny gets traded
That looks like a competitive two units.
Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.
McCoven: We're all happy to be wrong.
LOL
"I tell him straight, 'If you're going to lead, you have to be the first to practice. You have to come in, get your work down and be prepared for practice,' " assistant coach Keith Smart said. "He needs to figure out why he is having stomach problems and he's got to watch how LeBron (James), Kobe (Bryant) and D-Wade (Dwyane Wade) work. He needs to mimic that if he wants his teammates to speak volumes about him." -Keith Smart on Motna Ellis
Udoh to miss summer league . . .
This is why you can’t have too many bigs on a team. This is especially true for the Dubs with their injury issues. All in favor for a Lee / Randolph swap. Randolph is full of potential. Personally, I refer to it as the “p” word. It’s why everybody loves the young back-up quarterback. (Or any young back-up regardless of sport) People love to speculate over a player’s future feats. Take the proven player in Lee and hope the team can stay relatively healthy.
by ChronicMasticator on Jul 7, 2010 5:54 PM PDT reply actions
it's a amazing how quickly public perception can change
just three years ago Lee was a hustle man who played basketball the right way, dove for balls, provided high energy on both ends of the floor and was a decent defender. At 82games.come, they had him rated as a 74 in the 06-07 season: http://www.82games.com/nichols1.htm
Then, DAntoni became the coach and Lee learned how to become a prolific jump shooter. Now suddenly he’s a no-effort player who can’t guard a lick? That’s based on what rubric, TK’s interpretation of +/-? Some subjective video analysis done by whatever that site is called? I think that’s a bunch of crap. He’s still a high-effort player, and whatever deficiencies he has on D can be learned or treated with better defensive schemes
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 6:09 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
Sir
Leave your logic and evidence at the door. They have no place here.
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
by philthiest on Jul 7, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think that’s a bunch of crap. He’s still a high-effort player, and whatever deficiencies he has on D can be learned or treated with better defensive schemes
While I agree… I’m not so sure that this can happen here. Remember, the Warrior do not put any emphasis on defense.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
that's completely untrue
we put a huge amount of emphasis on D, it’s just that our style of D does not reflect well by common defensive metrics. We like to create block shots, create steals and force uncomfortable/unusual shots. Using a football analogy, we would be like the Colts championship team that relied on a “bend but don’t break” style of D with a high emphasis on creating turnovers.
Unfortunately, the last year there was plenty of bending and breaking. But if past teams show anything, our style is not wholly ineffective and would actually be more effective if we get a prolific rebounder to stop second chances. That’s where David Lee comes in
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Lee also averages a nice amount of steals, which is uncharacteristic of most big men.
by HOLDEMUPGoldenStateOfOppression on Jul 7, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions
we put a huge amount of emphasis on D, it’s just that our style of D does not reflect well by common defensive metrics
At the risk of insulting DFiB, let me amend his statement a little bit: the Warriors do not put any emphasis on an acceptable method of defense. Games are won with defensive stops. The warriors bend/break style of “defense” has not been successful, because with our roster of “talent” we are unable to stop the opposing team’s best player. The problem is both talent level and intelligent defensive scheme, two things the Warriors have zero of.
you can't argue the scheme is the problem
if you don’t have the personnel to run it. When we did have a semi-successful team, our scheme worked well enough to pull one of the biggest upsets in playoff history. Even then, we were lacking in personnel because we didn’t have the defensive rebounder who would stop second chance points, and as such Boozer put up MVP numbers against us. If we had a David Lee type player back then, who knows how much more successful we would have been?
David Lee is good for us. He fits our most glaring need, a hustle big man who can rebound. We don’t need him to “lock up” an opposing post player because 1.) there’s not that many effective post players anyways, and 2.) we have plenty of help defenders who are great at blocking shots. By the same token, we don’t need him to be a shot blocker either because we already have enough of them
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Would you pay $10-14M
for a player we could already have on our roster? And not just potentially one, but three? And even if they can’t individually get to Lee’s caliber, we still have three guys that’d help and are on good short term contracts.
Still hard to see a legit case made for not just standing pat.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
who is of Lee's caliber on our roster?
There’s a difference between having ability and doing something with it. Some of the players may mimic some of his abilities, though none of them come close to having his shot. But what have they done with it? How certain can we be that they will realize their potential and become consistent with them?
The way I look at it is this. We give up some shot blocking. We get proven rebounding/scoring. Defense is a wash. And the biggest thing is, we get a proven commodity and give up a risky one. Maybe, when I was younger and potential seemed that much sexier, I would want to keep AR. But what good is potential if you don’t do anything with it besides puffing up your head and flaunting what “could have been”?
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes but adding a major contract right now severely limits what we can do in the future.
Meanwhile we have lesser options (assuredly) available for cheaper and for a shorter term with the chance that they can turn into a positive asset.
I have no problems trading AR, but if we do I’m not sure David Lee at $10-14M is the option I’m looking at first.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
your arguments are reasonable
but I think past precedent has shown that financial “options” don’t actually help us. And yeah, maybe things might change if we get a new owner. Or maybe they don’t. Once again, there’s that risk of the unknown. When you have so many murky unknowns (Wright, AR, Udoh, New ownership, etc), I would feel much more comfortable if I had something that is solid.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Understood.
And just to clarify, by financial options i’m not necessarily thinking FA signings first. More like trade options to pursue without the hindrance of the salary cap.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
The key word there is COULD
All 3 of the guys we have in the pf position have proven basically nothing in the nba, at least as far as being a legitimate starter. David Lee is not only a legitimate starter in this league, but a very GOOD one. I’d wager that out of wright/udoh/randolph, not one will be as good as Lee in their career. I may be wrong, but it seems like a much surer bet to wager on Lee then on the threeheaded long armed monster.
O and 10-14 M is hardly a bad contract
for a 20/10 big man. End of story. We might bemoan the dollar figures from our perspective as Warriors fan, but the truth of the matter is the market price has been set high, by forces beyond rational control, and so far we have shown that our contracts are actually quite prudent in value so far. Lee’s contract, if it is 10-14 million, would continue that trend.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Did I say it was a bad contract?
No.
I have no problem with Lee being paid between that amount. I have concerns about adding his contract to Biedrins’ and Monta’s. Especially when I’m not convinced it’d make us a playoff contender.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Dude
That was lightening in a bottle. The team getting hot at just the right time, running into the perfect team, with the perfect coach, and getting lucky. It wasn’t because that team was anything special defensively. It was just special.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Does it make us a better team?
We are just adding more offense and some more rebounding but probably less defense (someone posted stats showing Lee was one of the worst defenders last year). Plus what will likely be a 5 year $10+ mill a year contract which cuts into cap space we could have next year.
I’d rather we trade AR for a good SF if he has to go away…or better yet, keep the cheaper younger guy and see what happens with ownership.
defense is hardly a static thing
defense is one aspect of the game that relies less on talent and athletic ability (like quickness, leaping ability) and more on effort, physical strength and brains. It is also strongly affected by coaching schemes and teamwork. So even if David Lee is a horrible defender, which I doubt, he can get better and we can make him better.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions
…and whatever deficiencies he has on D can be learned or treated with better defensive schemes[.]
Are you familiar with the words “height” and “athleticism”? How about the terms “vertical leap” or “lateral movement”?
These deficiencies cannot be “treated”, as you put it. Lee has averaged 0.4 BPG in his career. That is a staggeringly dismal figure. How has he fared under the offense-oriented D’Antoni system? In 2009-10 He averaged 0.5 BPG. That’s right, he went from terrible to indistinguishably less terrible!
Isn’t that enough to sour anyone on Lee? Do we really need rubrics and advanced stats to understand that it would be agonizing to watch Lee on the defensive end with an already poor defensive team?
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions
look at the best defenders in the league over the past decade
there’s HARDLY a correlation between athleticism and defensive ability. How do you think players like Bruce Bowen, Clifford Robinson, Shane Battier, and Raja Bell became “elite” defenders? Are they quicker/stronger/better jumpers than everyone else? Of course not! They’re mediocre athletically, they became great defenders by hustling, effort, brains, and just playing dirty.
And I don’t understand what kinda relationship you’re trying to draw about Lee’s D and being in D’Antoni’s system. How does being in an offense-oriented system affect his defense?
We are not a typical team and we don’t play a typical defense. We give up a lot of points and score a lot of points. Where we give up height, we make up through turnovers. THe consistent problem over the past 3-4 years is not our lack of D but the lack of rebounding that prevented the second chance opportunities. Lee will help fix that
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Elite defensive wings
and elite defensive post players are largely unrelated.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 7, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
’nuff said.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
not really
if athletic ability is the main factor of defensive ability, even in post defenders, than you wouldn’t have players like kendrik perkins considered to be a top defender, and a player like amare would be #1.
defense doesn’t require top-tier athletic ability regardless of position. you can make do with smarts/effort/scheme.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
…if athletic ability is the main factor of defensive ability…
According to whom? To you? I certainly never said anything even approaching that.
What I said is that he is unathletic and a terrible shot-blocker, which is unequivocally true on both counts. If you want to watch that, more power to you. I find it about as appealing as Shawn Marion’s Jump-shot.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions
you said athletic deficiencies cannot be treated by scheme and effort
i was merely providing examples as to why you are wrong.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
defense doesn’t require top-tier athletic ability regardless of position. you can make do with smarts/effort/scheme.
This is true in a sense. In another sense, making due sucks and shot-blocking looks cool and is intimidating.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions
we have a lot of shot blockers though. Tell me the real reason: you’re just afraid of another troy murphy.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
Tell me the real reason: you’re just afraid of another troy murphy.
You have to admit that’s a reasonable fear, right?
(That being said, I strongly suspect we wouldn’t be hearing so much about the Troy Murphy comparisons if Lee was black.)
Particularly because Lee has a vertical Murphy could only dream of
And doesn’t jack up treys all game. But he’s white and rebounds, so, TROY MURPHY!
"My father's name is art, and my name's pride, and while my destiny reads a recipe for confusion I'm looking for whoever writes, so empty inside." -Slug
This isn’t a color thing. It’s a floppy un-coordinated thing. Plenty of brothers are floppy. Chris Hunter is totally floppy. Brent Barry dunked from the free throw line. Go figure.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 11:47 PM PDT up reply actions
You could argue that it wouldn't make a lick of difference.
You put a bad defender on an already terrible defensive team, and, well, he certainly doesn’t make them any WORSE defensively. Also, blocked shots don’t equate to great defense. Ask Ronny Turiaf.
"My father's name is art, and my name's pride, and while my destiny reads a recipe for confusion I'm looking for whoever writes, so empty inside." -Slug
1) I never said blocked shots are equivalent to great defense. I said he is terrible at blocking shots, which he is.
2) Playing with bad defenders doesn’t mean you should stop playing defense. It means your skills are that much more needed. That is especially true when you are a post player.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Jay Williams
“I am going to say this. I just heard from a little bird in his camp, King James and Spike Lee will be seeing a lot of each other next yr.”
Yay
Another move that guarantees we stay mediocre for years to come. Our draft picks remain in the useless range of 5-12. We don’t develop what little (but cheap) potential we do have. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at a the prospect of a “high effort” guy. LOL @ a handful of his career highs coming against none other than the Warriors.
I thought the nightmare would end with new ownership. I was happy to see Mags go, and I was excited at the prospect of shedding long term obligations to remain nimble and light for a new regime to take the team in the opposite direction it’s been going since, oh, I was born. Here’s another “big” body who won’t be able to stop a remotely competent PF/C. But he won’t be asked to play Center, so this does not apply. Right? Right…?
Sigh. Warrior fans over 27, someone please talk me off the ledge.
by GameSix on Jul 7, 2010 6:30 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd
Misery loves company.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes and no
If Lee is up to expectations, Curry develops into a real star, Biedrins reverts to his old double-double self, and Monta accepts his new role… that’s a pretty good core that will go as far as Curry can take them. It’s far from the worst thing in the world.
I’m inclined to give Randolph another full season to work things out, as he does have a very interesting skill set and athleticism… but at the same time, if we don’t move him now and he doesn’t pan out, we’re just left holding the bag with a worthless egotistical player who has no concept of “team.”
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
"that’s a pretty good core"
That’s your opinion. I’m not bullish on this squad as currently constructed, and there really isn’t much of a tangible reason to get excited. I want a sustainable competitive advantage. It’s difficult to establish long term success when you tie your wagon to non-essential parts, like a Mags, Lee, etc.
I’m not bullish on this squad as currently constructed
I’m cautiously optimistic, myself. And there’s plenty of reason to get excited. Last year was a bit of an experiment. We had tons of guys who we didn’t know what we’d get out of them. We experimented with Monta at the point (fail), Randolph as a starter (failed at first… started looking better… got injured), Curry as a basketball player (stunning success), Wright as a basketball player (incomplete… that’s two in a row). We also had some stalwarts get injured and predictably fail because of it (Biedrins, Kelenna). Add to that the turmoil of Stephen Jackson demanding a trade after going through training camp with him, and you’ve got a rather unfortunate season.
It’s difficult to establish long term success when you tie your wagon to non-essential parts, like a Mags, Lee, etc.
Lee is not Maggs. Lee has skills that are an essential part of a good team. He’s a capable, efficient volume scoring big man, and a monster on the glass. These are two integral components to good teams. With Biedrins and Lee playing significant minutes, we should win the rebounding battle most nights. Maggs is a one trick pony, and that trick is rather easily duplicated. He’s good at what he does, but so are lots of people. Lee is good at what he does too… but he’s more than just a scorer. He’s an excellent rebounder. Not to mention that he’s a big man who’s got a better than 1:1 A/T ratio… which is also excellent (just like Biedrins). Did I mention that he was the best scoring P&R big man in the league last year @ 1.3PPP?
So we’ll have two complementary big men, each of whom scores efficiently, rebounds excellently, doesn’t turn the ball over, and passes well.
How is this a bad thing? Especially when coupled with the Golden Child and the One Man Fast Break? Curry/Lee is going to be an excellent P&R combo. I’m sorry, but that really, really sounds like an exciting playoff team. And if it only costs (as Ronaldinho points out) : "a guy who may never be a legit NBA starter," well jackpot!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Last year was indeed an experiment. You graded it fail, fail, injured, stunning success, incomplete, injured. I’d agree wholeheartedly with all of that, and yet you took that grab bag of nothingness, added David Lee, and proclaimed an exciting playoff team?
I’m not particularly concerned w/Lee’s ball movement ability, because even with black hole Mags, we managed to score top 3 ppg in the League. I’m concerned w/defense. Granted, our rebounding differential was indeed atrocious, last by a long shot. I am not confident that a Murphy-esque 10 boards a game will lead to anything, when we still do not have anyone to competently defend a PG, SG, or C.
David Lee’s Knicks contributed to the Knicks’ ranked 3rd worst in rebounding differential, in case you were wondering. Let me know when the excitement is supposed to begin.
I’m not particularly concerned w/Lee’s ball movement ability, because even with black hole Mags, we managed to score top 3 ppg in the League.
Don’t fool yourself. We were a bad offensive team last year.
We scored a lot of points because we led the league in pace – by a lot. (We had 3.3 more possession a game than the second-fastest team.To give that number some context, dropping 3.3 more possessions a game takes you from second … to eighth in the rankings.
When it came to offensive effeciency – the number of points scored per 100 possessions, we were tied for 13th – solidly middle of the pack. One should not think we were much better than an average offensive team last year.
Furhermore, that you think that we managed to score as much as we did “despite” Maggette makes me think you don’t understand what happened last year. Mags had the highest TS% of any of our players who played in 10 or more games. There are lots of things to not like about Mags’s game, but the truth is without him our offensive effeciency and total scoring are MUCH lower.
Also, looking at the Knicks team rebounding is absurd. The knicks have spent the last two years trading away players to create cap room for this summer so they could go after LeBron. And they spent the couple of years before that trading for players who’s primary asset what their PPG number.
There isn’t a rebounder in the league who can give him team a positive rebounding differential if he has player who are substantially below average rebounders on sharing the frontline with him.
Among players who played at least 25 games, the second-best rebounder on the Knicks was Al Harrington, who is an abysmal rebounder. And you think David Lee was the problem?
Please don’t use quotation marks around words I did not say. I did not say “despite” Mags. Not to mention, the remark was in the context of ball movement. Don Nelson’s system + this cast of players = ball movement.
The information about possessions per game is certainly telling at first glance. Warriors = middle of the pack in offensive efficiency. What’s easy to forget is that Stephen Curry played a tentative, shy second banana to Monta Ellis throughout a chunk of the beginning of the season. I’d wager our offensive efficiency fluctuated somewhat during our transition (not to mention that of a rookie PG), trending upward toward the end of the season. The point is, I’m not concerned with where the offensive efficiency is going to come from on this team. Nellie, coupled with a (fingers crossed) resurgence of Beans’ hands and development of Curry, can/has/
All rebounds are not created equal. You make David Lee sound like the tallest midget; a warm body who just happened to be taller than every other player on the Knicks. What will happen when you put competent rebounders next to him? I’m supposed to print my playoff tickets because we’ve got a high effort, jump shooting guy coming off career highs in a contract year? Lee’s a piece one would add to a good team that needs to get better. Lee has no place on a bottom-feeding (literally, we do indeed feast on the d-league) perennial loser trying to build a sustainable winning program with some intriguing young (read: cheap) pieces.
In a perfect world, I'd like to see more of Randolph before we trade him ...
… but you can’t get something for nothing.
In Randolph has another mediocre season (particularly one with a new coach) then his trade value will plummet and there’s absolutely no way you’ll be able to get a player of Lee’s value for him.
You can’t get something for nothing. THe question is, what’s the least you can give up for a player of Lee’s quality? I have to think that “a guy who may never be a legit NBA starter” could be as little as it’s possible to imagine giving up for a player that good.
So much speculation, good time to be an NBA fan, except for the lockout. I think ESPN is doing a great job covering the Free Agency Period. I don’t think anyone knows what LBJ is going to do except his camp, but does anyone if the news conference was scheduled to be held in Cleveland, but they moved it to Connecticut. If so, then that’s an indication he’s leaving right there.
i dont know how ppl could be against this trade
i dont know if david lee is the best trade we can get. i personally am ready to ship off biedrins and monta for a quality SF or a truer center, but d. lee can play no doubt about it.
this guy just has a knack for basketball. he’s got the instincts and smarts, the game just comes easy for some, and he is one of those people. i think he will keep up his amazing stats running the floor with curry. he is not our center, but he could be a great PF. he rebounds, his D can improve (and personally i don’t think he is any worse than randolph), and we have this udoh kid who hopefully will turn out to be this defensive phenom we hoped for.
randolph on the other hand… yes he has all the potential in the world..yes he is young, yes he is a freak athlete, and actually willing to put in the effort and hustle to improve. i’m all for a feel good story, but was anyone else watching the same games i saw this year??. even when he put up decent stats, it was a mess the way randolph did so. 40mpg stats don’t count for much, trust me, there is a reason he ended up sitting on the bench so much (even when healthy) if he does become an all star, great for him, i will eat my words.
but the two of these guys are not even in the same class at the moment. and if we can get a chance at dlee. i say jump on board.
There should be a poll attached to this topic, if possible
I bet it’d be split down 50-50.
"I never watched baseball on TV. It's slow and boring. I'm not a fan. Never was." - Jeff Kent
FREE POSEY IS FREE
NO
Why do we ALWAYS get rid of our promising talent for over rated players who can’t play defense? Awful…..
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
what?
since when? it’s more like the other way around where we LOSE talent for players with “potential” that almost never lives up to it
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions
How about losing
Pietrus, Barnes, JRich, BDiddy, Harrington, Jackson, and now potentially AR and Monta
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
Add in CWEbb too
Forgot about him
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
as jae would say, with his eloquence and biting wit
you’re out of your mind if you’re trying to compare the CWebb situation to anything that’s happened in the new millenia
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
well we're both agree that we lose talent
i was under the impression, due to your reference to AR, that you felt we were giving up potential for overrated players, whereas I’m saying that we give up proven players for potential.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
Make this deal! LeBron please sign elsewhere! We need this all star. I’m sick of “potential”! I want proven all star players that work their ass off.
The Time Is Now! Win Warriors Win!
I've always said that if the Warriors...
trade Randolph, I’m becoming a fan of whichever team trades for him because that is a smart team. It’s the last straw for me…I just never thought that I would have to pick up the Knicks as my favorite team. I hate NY teams. I stand by my decision though. My GSOM days are numbered if this trade happens. PLEASE LEBRON, GO TO NEW YORK!! KEEP RANDOLPH!! RILEY/ROWELL/COHAN/NELSON Back away from the trade desk. Pack your belongings and sit quietly without touching anything until Larry buys the squad!
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 7:07 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
I dont mind this trade at all...I like AR, but Lee is proven @ the PF spot...and we keep our backcourt....DONE!
i would try n give them cj or buike tho…
Rebounds
rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds rebounds
For you idio.....I mean non beleivers in D Lee read the following article from ESPN insider
I know…I know… You all know more than this cat.
.
Tom Haberstroh
Lee could be nice bargain this summer
“In his first three seasons in New York, Lee developed a reputation as a cleanup artist on the block without a complementary midrange game. That all changed this past season when he shot nearly 400 jumpers between 16 and 23 feet — more than his first three seasons combined — and ranked among the league leaders with a 43.4 percent conversion rate, according to Hoopdata.com. Lee unlocked his scoring potential just in time for free agency, which should allow teams with elite point guards to target him as a versatile screen counterpart and not just a glorified rebounder. According to Synergy Sports Technology, Lee is already one of the best pick-and-roll big men in the business, averaging 1.31 points after receiving the ball on a pick-and-roll, better than any of his counterparts in free agency. (That efficiency rate helps refute arguments that his stats are inflated by Knicks coach Mike D’Antoni’s system.) … Up to this point, Lee sounds as though he’s worth a max contract. However, as is the case with Boozer and Stoudemire, Lee’s defensive liabilities eclipse much of his offensive firepower. … But after considering the splash premium that Stoudemire likely will receive, Lee could be a real bargain this summer. By many measures, including John Hollinger’s player efficiency rating, Lee even ranks as the better player of the two. And that’s before one considers Lee’s spotless injury record.”
Set a record by getting banned for the 8th time!
After rehab I saw the light and promise to be kinder and gentler!
Probation is a very slippery slope!
the ignorance on this site is amazing
Lee is better than stoudamire. see this article: http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/news/story?id=5359842
Lee is young and going to improve – he is one of the best rebounders in the game, he plays fundamentally sound bball, he would be great on the pick and roll. Do we not recall the way he and duhon killed the dubs with about 100 pick and rolls in one game?
Lee is much better than AR right now – AR may be good down the road but we really don’t know if this is true. He relies on his athleticism too much instead of learning post moves and how to play man to man defense. He is a mystery. Lee is already very good.
as for talk about inflated numbers, put AR on a half court team like the heat or celtics and his numbers would go down a lot.
by tjmax on Jul 7, 2010 7:56 PM PDT reply actions 2 recs
OK
I just wouldn’t want to pay Lee $10-14M when we could just as happily see what AR, BW and Udoh could offer us. At least for half a season anyway…
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
those three guys have too many question marks
AR is immature, not the smartest bball player, and I question his desire to be the scrappy pf this team needs who can make an impact without the ball in his hands
BW – too injury prone, but if healthy he can play the 4 or 5 spot and back up Lee and Beans
Udoh – a future solid role player who will likely play multiple positions – but not a future star
Lee is very good now, is still young, and may be great down the road – if he stays the way he is he is already a big upgrade.
Making moves in mid season is contingent on too many things – we suck as a team and need change now!
As for money – we can free up money trading beans or monta down the road if necessary. if they both play well then we are in good shape anyways and could contend for a playoff spot.
The point is that it's a major investment. Or opportunity cost as they say.
By investing in Lee, we’ll cut short our options. I’m not sold that adding Lee to this roster makes us a playoff contender.
I DO think it would make us better as I do think Lee is hands down better than Randolph right now. It’s just Randolph has the potential to impact the game much more. Although no one knows how likely that’ll be. So both sides of that position (trade him/don’t trade him) seem valid to me.
And I’m also not entirely sure we couldn’t acquire a player of Lee’s caliber at a later time. I’m just saying, my leading option is ironically enough, patience. Let’s see what the other, cheaper guys can do first. We can still make a move to re-shuffle the roster in February. I fear that if we get Lee, we’ll still not be good enough and/or he gets hurt. It would severely limit our February options if the latter happens.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
how is it ignorance?
David Lee is a good player no doubt, but not all of us are running to throw Anthony Randolph in a trade for him. For starters, Randolph will be making more than 10 million dollars less than David Lee the next 2 seasons. He is 6 years younger than Lee. If there is one part of the game where you can say Anthony Randolph is better than David Lee right now is defense. David Lee is as good as Yi Jianlin’s chair on the defensive end.
Not to mention, Randolph is more athletic, a better ball handler, and shot blocker than David Lee RIGHT NOW. He is also a slightly worst rebounder RIGHT NOW but not by much. Randolph’s potential is MUCH MUCH higher than David Lee. Many of us feel like AR hasn’t been given a fair shake under Nelson and would like to see him possibly thrive under a new coach that actually gives AR some rope and room to fail.
Getting Lee right now is kinda pointless. Why draft Udoh? What about Brandan Wright’s comeback? We have 3 YOUNG and better DEFENDING power forwards in Wright, Udoh, and Randolph RIGHT NOW that make a fraction of what Lee is going to cost. A 27 year old second tier power forward making 13-15 million dollars isn’t something that many of us are going to get excited about.
Last but not least, I won’t get behind any moves that this lame duck front office is trying to salvage up right now. They know just as everyone else that the franchise is in flux due to the sale and that their days are numbered. They should not be fiddling with any of the team’s important assets. I rank Anthony Randolph as the second most important asset on the Warriors behind Stephen Curry. I am not in support of this move from a basketball stand point as well as franchise stand point.
David Lee on this team will make the Warriors a borderline playoff seed and maybe a 7th seed at best. By the time the Warriors are ready to seriously compete (3 years minimum) and by compete I mean for a championship not an 8th seed, David Lee will be 30 years old with 2 years remaining at 15 mill a pop. Randolph? He will be 24 , not even entering his prime, and probably making something in the vicinity of 8 million dollars. He will most likely be vastly improved and a 2 way player unlike Lee. I do not like this trade and it has nothing to do about ignorance.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Where is the evidence that Randolph is a better defender than Lee right now? I don’t know what games you were watching, but Randolph is a terrible, raw defender.
I'm not going to take this question seriously...
are you kidding me? David Lee might be the worst defender in NBA. Sorry I don’t have a defensive matrix to link to but that should be something any NBA fan should know. Do blocks represent some defensive ability? If they do, Randolph avgs 1.5 blocks in 22 minutes. David LEe? 0.5 in 37 minutes.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:11 PM PDT up reply actions
blocks do not represent any sort of defensive ability
blocks are like dunks. They’re great and help a lot but don’t correlate with defensive/offensive ability.
This whole Lee is a bad defender is a RECENT phenomena. Recent as in THIS YEAR only. Years prior he was considered at least a decent defender. THen he got thrown into a situation where the ENTIRE ORGANIZATION is tanking and not a single other person is playing D.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
blocks do not represent any sort of defensive ability
What happens if a player blocks a shot and his team winds up with possession of the ball? What do they call that…
Furthermore, regardless of his skill-set, Lee has neither the size nor the athleticism to match-up well 1 on 1 with an average NBA PF on the defensive end. He just doesn’t. It’s obvious.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Lee's Drtg isn't too bad.
In 2010 it was at 108 (exactly league average). Could be misleading though. I’m still not a buff on advanced metrics like this. Lee is a horrid post defender. This cannot be denied. Although he mostly went up against C’s. A move back to guarding PF’s would really help.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Getting Lee right now is kinda pointless. Why draft Udoh? What about Brandan Wright’s comeback? We have 3 YOUNG and better DEFENDING power forwards in Wright, Udoh, and Randolph RIGHT NOW that make a fraction of what Lee is going to cost. A 27 year old second tier power forward making 13-15 million dollars isn’t something that many of us are going to get excited about.
Getting Lee addresses a need. That’s not pointless.
By your logic, we shouldn’t add David Lee because we already have Brandan Wright and Ekpe Udoh. But, it’s okay to have Anthony Randolph next to those guys.
Randolph, Wright, and Udoh all on the same team is a bit redundant. They’re all young and unproven. By adding David Lee, we add proven talent, which also makes it okay to lower our expectations for both Wright and Udoh.
By your logic, Randolph, Wright, and Udoh all play defense. But they’re not all going to be playing at the same time for prolonged minutes.
David Lee will be more expensive, but we’re paying for proven talent.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions
If this were 2007..
and we were talking about the B-Diddy, Monta, Jackson, Harrington, and J-RIch Warriors I would be much more behind this move. That team was a legitimate proven PF away from really contending. Problem is, the Warriors are not one piece away. They are several pieces away from competing and several years away from contending and David Lee is not the answer. I would much rather roll the dice on developing Randolph to see if he can be a franchise cornerstone and add around him, Curry, Udoh, and possibly Wright/whoever we get for Monta. David Lee puts us middle of the pack, downgrades our young talent that leaves us with no potential stars. Say what you will about RAndolph, but he has star potential and his development years line up nicely in terms of the Warriors and how far away they are from competing. Adding Lee right now as the main piece of this franchise is not a sound move.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
by no potential stars I mean 1 less...
we got Curry.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions
But all of this is based on the assumption
That Randolph stops thinking he’s already the greatest thing since sliced bread and starts actually showing that he is capable of being above average at anything on an NBA court outside of rebounding. And as far as that shot-blocking? It’s from behind after Randolph’s man has blown past him to the rim. He should really get more than 1.5 per game considering how often he gets beat.
"My father's name is art, and my name's pride, and while my destiny reads a recipe for confusion I'm looking for whoever writes, so empty inside." -Slug
i think what you're trying to say is
you would rather gamble with someone who has potential because
1.) if the potential turns out to be true, great! We have a star.
2.) If the potential doesn’t work out, we have another chance to have a high pick in the lottery.
In other words, you would rather risk another losing season and wait for whatever potential there is to develop. You would not want a situation where we are competitive, because that would make us " forever mediocre".
You are not alone in this mentality. For the most part, warriors fans love losing. It is easier to be a bottom feeder and show flashes of potential than carry the responsibilities and hardships of being an average or an above average team. But you know what? Our We Believe team was a mediocre team. A mediocre team has been the lone brightpoint in 15 years of mediocrity. 15.
I would rather be a mediocre team. I don’t care about being a championship team and I certainly don’t want to be a losing team anymore. I would rather be a mediocre team and use that as a foundation to build upon instead of trying to build upon a losing team and hoping/praying for some miracle to drop to us in the draft or through free agency.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
What’s the point unless it’s to win the Championships? Warriors fans don’t love losing. They hate the fact that they’re smarter than the FO. For far too long the FO made moves to keep us treading water when we could’ve used a major blow up a couple years ago.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
since when was our goal to win championships?
And yes, we do love losing. We love losing because it lets us get away with the excuse of potential, with the possibilities of high draft picks and lowered expectations. It’s like a being a crap student with a high IQ. You can always bank on people saying “well at least he has a high IQ, he’ll be great if he can just pull it together”. What they don’t tell you and what that crap student doesn’t realize is that “putting it all together” is actually the hardest part.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
since when was our goal to win championships?
Well, you’re right. That’s not Cohan’s goal.
I see it as the other way around. We’re obsessed about potential because we want to be good. We want our guys to develop and succeed through team success.
We only love losing when it becomes apparent that, that is our best option. And by that time we’re all well aware we won’t be making a playoff appearance.
And wouldn’t the We Believe Playoffs be in direct opposition to your hypothesis? They went nuts for a mediocre playoff team. Happy kind of nuts, not the normal kind of mid-may nuts when the players are already planning their trips for vacation in June.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
not quite...
I would rather compete but not for a playoff seed but rather a CHAMPIONSHIP. Like really really contend for a championship. I think David Lee is a move towards a decade of mediocrity / 1st/2nd round playoff exits…a full on rebuild where you develop young talent and wait until you are 1-2 players away before unloading major cap space on a player to put you over the top. The Warriors are nowhere near championship contention and the addition of David Lee does not put us over the top. Keeping Randolph, developing the young talent, adding pieces through expiring contracts/the draft, and then going after the piece(s) to put you over the top is the angle that I would manage from if I were in charge.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:39 PM PDT up reply actions
let's walk before we run
build a culture of winning first and then start talking about championships. For now, let’s just try to not suck.
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions
You want to build a winning culture....
on the cusp of a move from of one of the most futile NBA front offices to ever grace the association as they are on their way out?
I desire a winning culture and I realize that there is one thing this front office cannot do, build a winning culture. That’s why I am all for not making any trades and waiting for a true winner (Ellison) to come in and deal with our 2nd most important asset in Anthony Randolph.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I hear your concerns, but...
we have too many young guys as it is – we need vets who play the right way. if we disregard stats and potential (which one can argue Lee or David) and consider instead a different criteria, I’d rather have Lee.
The criteria is one that should dictate all front office moves – who will help Curry the most?
Lee and Curry would be like Boozer and Deron Williams
I think AR needs the ball in his hands too much to make a difference on the floor – in fact, without the ball he is often a liability.
The ignorance i mentioned is by people who vastly under value Lee and over value Randolph. You make some good points however.
Why do we need vets though?
you are talking about a 20-25 win team that is several years away from being Championship caliber. I would much rather go with the youth movement and see if we can develop any legitimate cornerstone players. The fact is that the dubs are nowhere near the point of being 1 player away. Adding Lee will not only cost Randolph but it will slow down the development of Wright and Udoh. Wright is about to be a UFA, personally, I would like to see what we have in him. Playing Lee 37 minutes a night at the 4 on a team that could possibly be a 7-8 seed will just hamstring our rebuilding efforts.
In terms of Randolph. I understand that his game has questions and people don’t like x or y about his game. I get it. Problem is, I have no problem with it. The guy is 21 years old and is a big man in the NBA. These types of players need 4-5 years in the league before they start becoming anywhere near complete. I don’t complain about Randolph’s game because in my opinion, he’s nowhere near complete and is a few years away from becoming who is really is. Patience is key with big men. Just look at how Jermain O’neal sat on the bench in Portland for 5 years before becoming a perennial all star.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I get what you’re saying. You’d rather be conservative, don’t use precious cap space, and see what we have because we’re obviously not going to be a contender.
But, my argument is that “you play to win the game.” If you can’t constantly try to put yourself in a position to win, then why are we even here? We meaning the Warriors. Give an effort. I appreciate Larry Riley doing his job despite ultimately getting booted after new ownership.
I appreciate patience. It is virtue afterall. But, the Warriors still need to run a business and Larry Riley and anyone else involved are auditioning for future jobs.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
"you play to win the game"...
that’s the thing…that’s what I feel like keeping AR does. Trading for Lee gets you a couple playoff appearances before you have to blow it up….keeping AR is the better route if you are playing to win. Playing to mean, meaning win it all, a championship. I feel like keeping AR is the best choice if you are playing to win. There is a reason why he is one of the only players other teams are demanding from the Warriors. EVERY team wants him, for a reason. He’s got too much talent and potential at a premium position that if he lives up to it all, can be a cornerstone on a championship contending team…you don’t trade players like that on their rookie contract. You just dont. Espeically for a guy like David Lee.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Espeically for a guy like David Lee.
An All-Star.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes to this trade
Everyone is placing too much value in Randolph. This is too typical with home team fans. The upside is exciting, but it’s been 3-years and the Warriors just need to improve NOW. Warrior fans need to make up their mind on whether they want to wait for a 20-year old to develop into the next Lamar Odom (example) or if they want the Warriors to address a specific need, a desperate need.
As others have stated, Randolph hasn’t proven anything. No disrespect to him, but it’s a fact. You can’t dispute it. On top of that, we have two other PF’s that haven’t proven anything. We are already hedged with potential and upside, let’s now hedge with some proven talent!
NY fans seem to be more open to this trade than Lee for Monta.
I think keeping Monta is good for now and he’s a proven talent, albeit it flawed. We clear up the logjam of unproven talent at the PF position with a proven PF.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 8:04 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Actually it's been two years.
And Nellie, who I feel is a good evaluator of talent despite his coaching idiosyncrasies, says that big mean should what they’re capable of in their 3rd year. I would rather let AR play this year through before making a decision on him
People can talk about logjams all they want, but with 2 straight years of decimated front courts, trading 2 front court players for one with our kind of health luck doesn’t make a log jam all that bad.
I stand corrected. 2 years going on 3.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if David Lee is a terrible defender, we have other players on this team that can play defense. Biedrins and Turiaf are a great defensive tandem. Brandan Wright has the ability to change shots. Udoh was drafted for his defense. I think we can live with one big that can’t play defense but gobbles up rebounds. DEFENSIVE REBOUNDS. Last season, we gave up a lot of 2nd chance points. If David Lee helps in reducing that number, that’s defense.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 8:24 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This deal can't be done
unless Lee wants to come to Golden State which he probably won’t
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Please sell the team Chris Cohan
Future of the Dubs: SC30, AR4
well assuming the rumor is true
and the source is reliable, the deal is already in place. Again, assuming LeBron doesn’t sign w/NY.
Well a deal was in place for CB4 to be in Cleveland
But the player said no. About the trade, if we trade Ronny our big deph drops a lot. Dumb deal. Ronny and AR so much better defenders than Lee. We seriously do not care about defense do we?
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
Ronny wasn't great on D last year.
Nowhere near the shotblocking threat he was 2 years ago. We’ll see if an extra rest this summer is what the Doctor ordered.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
We’ll see if an extra rest this summer is what the Doctor ordered.
I put in several orders. Let’s see what happens.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 8:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I was going to reference you.
Funny funny.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I'd rather have Ronny guarding Dwight /Stat (just players for examples)
Than Lee, but were losing but Lee and AR for Lee.
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
When?
I heard that Toronto was interested in a S&T with Cleveland, but I heard zilch about any actual agreed upon trade, or even the principals. Toronto was just saying that they were interested. Hey, Golden State is interested in a S&T for Bosh.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it was Bucher on ESPN
He said it’d be Varejao/Hickson and West or something like that
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
Randolph is nowhere near as good as Lee is right now.
The discussion needs to start right there. It’s not even close.
The question is, in 2-3 years, will Randolph become as good as Lee, or better?
That’s a question to which there is no easy answer.
First of all, note that before Randolph becomes as good as Lee (if he is going to become as good as Lee) he’s likely to be a free agent, and who knows what the FA landscape will be. It’s quite possible that the bird exemption will go away, making it so we have no significant advantage in resigning him.
Secondly, I think, realistically, the chances of Randolph becoming a legitimate NBA starter are only about 65%. There are questions of attitude. There are questions about commitment to defense. There are questions of teachability.
If he does become a legitimate NBA starter, does he become as good as David Lee is? Again, it’s not guaranteed. While there are legitimate questions about Lee’s defense, couldn’t the same be said of Randolph, who appears to be too weak to defend inside and too slow to defend outside? Expecting Randolph to become an above-average NBA defender seems incredibly optimistic. If he makes it as a starter, he’ll almost certainly be a better help defender than Lee. But a better one-on-one defender? That’s more questionable. If he adds bulk to help him inside, he may lose what quickness he has which helps him be a good help defender. He could easily be a better defender than Lee but not a particularly good defender.
Rebounding wise, Randolph might end up a touch better, but it’s close. There’s not going to be a big difference between the two: Randolph will be an elite rebounder if he can stay on the floor. Lee is already an elite rebounder. They’re very close already but one can’t assume that Randolph will improve in this area.
Offensively? It seems unlikely that Randolph will ever be as efficient as Lee, who’s career TS% is .600. Randolph could exceed expectations offensively and not be that good.
I expect Randolph to be showier than Lee. He’s already a very showy player, which is part of why we all like him. He’ll rack up blocks that Lee doesn’t get (although blocks have one of the lowest substance-to-flash ratios of all major stats).
Therefore, I have a hard calling it better than a coinflip that – assuming he becomes a starting-quality player – Randolph ends up being better than Lee. Putting those two percentages together gives me: 32.% chance Randolph ends up a starter better than Lee. 32.5% chance Randolph ends up a starter worse than lee. 35% chance he never gets consistent starter minutes.
That leads me to the conclusion that, if you think Lee is worth the salary it takes to land him, that you have to do this deal.
Now, this deal hurts. I really want to see Randolph get a year with a better coach, which will drastically change my estimate of his odds of success one way or the other. But you’re not going to land an above-average starter (and Lee is, clearly, an above average starter given his effecient volume scoring and excellent rebounding, even if his defense sucks) without suffering a little bit of pain.
I’d rather give up Monta. I’m a little surprised that the Knicks, who have to be playing for “now” rather than the future, would rather have Randolph.
it hurts a little, but I make the deal.
by Ronaldinho on Jul 7, 2010 9:00 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
The problem is....
David Lee will be 31/32 years old by the time the Warriors can seriously contend for a championship..Randolph? He will be 25/26 years old. Randolph’s development/age lines up perfectly with the Warriors contention plan. Lee and Curry might lead us to some 1st/2nd round playoff exits but trading Randolph, you are possibly giving away a decade of AR and his prime years where he could potentially be the power forward for the next 10 years as the team starts to contend.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jul 7, 2010 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why are we four years from contending from a championship?
Let’s be optimistic for a second:
Next year: Beans returns to form (10 wins). Lee is as good as advertised (12 wins – which is docking him pretty seriously for his defense). Curry continues to slowly improve (4 wins). Monta takes to his new role (4 wins – a conservative estimate). More time for Morrow and Williams makes up for the loss of Mags.
You’re talking an over 50 win team.
I don’t see any particularly reason to look at this team and say, “We need to be on a five-year plan.” Five years, anyway, is a lifetime: we have a new CBA, probably shorter contracts, probably no bird rights/larger raises for the home team. Yes, absolutely, AR may be better than Lee in five years … but he may be being better for somebody else.
The primary reason we talk about the Warriors being five years away is because it may well take that long for Randolph to “Get it.”
by Ronaldinho on Jul 7, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec
Though, you’re probably being a little generous with Biedrins… Regardless, we’re an above 0.500 team and we probably make the playoffs. If we start from there, we’re much closer to hitting the jackpot than hoping against hope that Randolph somehow turns into a better player than Lee before we have to decide on whether or not to extend him.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Well said (REC’d) and I agree for the most part.
I’d rather give up Monta. I’m a little surprised that the Knicks, who have to be playing for "now" rather than the future, would rather have Randolph.
It’s curious to me too. Part of it is that Monta is more well-known and his issues from the past season are much more chronicled than the undevelopment of Anthony Randolph. They only hear about the potential about Randolph, which really, is all we have to base anything on him as well.
My argument to keep Monta over Randolph is that Monta is a proven player and Randolph simply is not. They play totally different positions, but there is value in proven talent. Yes, Monta is totally flawed in many ways, but a well-constructed team that includes David Lee might alleviate some of Monta’s flaws. Putting a real team next to Monta will help Monta for sure, IMO.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Quoting myself
Putting a real team next to Monta will help Monta for sure, IMO.
I’m not sure putting a real team next to Randolph would help Randolph. In fact, it might hurt him because I don’t know if Randolph has the patience or mental capacity to be able to handle the competition and pressure to prove himself.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 7, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
My argument to keep Monta over Randolph is that Monta is a proven player and Randolph simply is not. They play totally different positions, but there is value in proven talent.
I’m more concerned about Monta’s attitude than you are, but I admit that concern is speculative. One of the big advantages to trading Monta is that we have good replacements on the roster (Williams and Morrow can take the minutes at little hit) and that it doesn’t cost us as much cap flexibility, since the net addition to our salary base is only a couple of million a year.
In my mind
Monta is really pretty expendable. Say we trade him and don’t get a 2 guard out of it. We can easily replace his minutes with Morrow, Kelenna, CJ, Reggie, and anyone else we can find on the waiver wire. We may take a slight hit in talent, but it won’t be horrible. Yet, he’s making $11M/year for the next 4 years. He’s good (at best), but he’s not that good.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
There are questions of teachability./There are questions of attitude
I honestly question Nellie’s ability to develop bigs and patience , I have never bought into his whole head case thing. Lee right now is a much better offensive player than Lee, easily. Rebounding, probably Lee but AR is not far off and 6 years younger. Neither one are defensive stoppers but at least AR can protect the rim. Lee is 27, when his contract is up he will be in his 30’s, AR will be heading into his prime. This is a win now move for a team that can’t win now, why be impatient and give away AR and his best years for a guy who won’t get any better and isn’t what we need?
It’s also killing cap flexibility from what we could have, AR is very cheap right now and picking up his options won’t cost us much either.
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
by dubzfan on Jul 7, 2010 9:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because Lee is already really good
And Randolph’s best years are not guaranteed to be even good by any means.
I like how you basically parrot what Ronaldinho said, except with the completely unjustified stance that it’s somehow all Nellie’s fault that Randolph can’t learn a darn thing or even participate in an organized play. Nellie benches him for this, we all see him take bad jumpers, Monta calls him out in an interview, he fires his agent for telling him to be patient (and presumably earn his minutes by following orders). Seriously… what else needs to happen for you to believe that it might actually be Randolph that’s screwing up? Does he need to throw a tantrum out there on the court in the middle of a game?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
his mancrush is too strong
reason has no effect
Randolph is a garbage-point collector and Wright is probably never going to be an NBA starter, not JONeal at all.
LarryLegendofOracle
by dso on Jul 7, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I never heard he fired his agent cause he said be patient
Or Monta call him out, I honestly don’t remember that.
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
I don't disagree with you on the Nellie questions.
That’s why this deal hurts. If I was confident in Nellie’s ability to get the most out of a challenging young player like AR, then I’d do this trade in a heartbeat because I’d resolve the ambiguities in AR’s game against him.
That’s why, after this season, I expect AR’s value to change dramatically. He’s EITHER going to be a lot more valuable or a lot less valuable. The problem is it’s really hard to say which.
+1
I think just cause he is so young and such a unknown he will have value up until he gets a real shot and shows he’s not good. I really worry about our team with Nellie, if we trade AR I say trade BW as well. I don’t think he can really develop them, he has always done well with older teams, so make the team older. Get a vet SF like Jack was and get vets up front. Thats the only way I see Nellie doing well this year
When I get older, I will be stronger.
They’ll call me freedom, just like a Waving Flag
Neither one are defensive stoppers but at least AR can protect the rim.
Hallelujah! Seriously though, beyond the athleticism/defensive acumen argument, there is money and age to be concerned with, and to what end?
This is a win now move for a team that can’t win now…
Put it in helvetica. That’s gold.
Confront racism: Boycott Arizona
by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Jul 7, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
eh
Randolph is nowhere near as good as Lee is right now. The discussion needs to start right there. It’s not even close.
I think this misses the point entirely. I have yet to be convinced why exactly we are supposed to need an expensive, marginal upgrade in Lee. That Lee is better than Randolph is indeed a no brainer, but that’s neither here nor there is it? What exactly is the plan, here?
A marginal upgrade?
You’re kidding, right?
Right now this is a HUGE upgrade. Compared to who we were last year, Lee gets Mag’s minutes, which means that it’s – at worst – a wash defensively, we’ve improved on offense (Mags slight advantage in TS% is replaced by Lee’s better passing and overall offensive flow) and we’re MUCH better rebounding: all of a sudden we’re a good rebounding team.
Okay, but it’s not really Lee replacing Mags. It’s Lee replacing AR. AR who looked completely lost on defense, so it’s not a loss there.
You’re gaining almost .080 of TS% and better passing. AR doesn’t do anything on offense better than Lee does.
It’s not a marginal upgrade. It’s only a marginal upgrade if AR flourishes, which is far from certain.
You asked me the plan, and this is optimistic, but I laid it out earlier: Beidrins healthy adds ten wins. Lee adds 12 wins (which is a substantial penalty based on his defense). Curry’s continued improvement adds 4 more wins. Monta taking to his new role adds 4 wins. All of a sudden you’ve got an over-50-win team.
That’s a plan. To me, the “what’s the plan” question makes more sense if you’re saying keep AR – because then you’re basically just hoping he turns into something.
All of a sudden you’ve got an over-50-win team.
LA Lakers 57 25
Phoenix 54 28
Denver 53 29
Utah 53 29
Portland 50 32
Oklahoma City 50 32
Those are 09-10 records. You want me to pencil in the Warriors onto this list based on:
Beidrins healthy adds ten wins. Lee adds 12 wins (which is a substantial penalty based on his defense). Curry’s continued improvement adds 4 more wins. Monta taking to his new role adds 4 wins. All of a sudden you’ve got an over-50-win team.
Yeesh
I pencil those numbers in based on Wins Produced.
As we’ve discussed in the past, WP is really good at predicting team results. Not perfect, but really good.
But not only am I giving Lee a major penalty based on his defense compared to wins produced, the only one of those estimates which is really optimistic is that Monta would add 4 more wins. That still leaves him well below his career best, however.
Therefore, that’s hardly an optimistic estimate. It’s actually somewhat conservative based on what the best predictive tool we have tells us.
No, I'm not a betting man.
And there are a lot of variables in that (it assumed a Biedrins return to form, for example).
Just out of curiosity, what do you base YOUR predictions on?
How’s your track record compared to wins produced?
I'd say my process is something like a weighted average, a lot like WP actually
I won’t pretend to be as organized as a WP robot, nor will I attack WP since it’s a measure I’m not intimately familiar with. You mentioned a lot of variables, and that’s where I stand. Lots of variables. After a few posts, you went from cautiously optimistic to 50 wins being a “a conservative estimate.” Your prerogative. It’s a shame you aren’t a betting man.
FWIW, going into 2009-10, Hollinger/Pelton had the Warriors winning 38 games. How’d that go for them? I’m on the record saying they’d be lucky to top 25 games. So, to answer your question, my track record is pretty awesome. Ha.
After a few posts, you went from cautiously optimistic to 50 wins being a "a conservative estimate." Your prerogative. It’s a shame you aren’t a betting man.
Well, to be fair, the cautiously optimistic thing is because that’s counting on two important things:
1) Ellis accepting his role and being the player he was two years ago.
2) Biedrins being healthy and regaining his confidence.
If those things happen, and we don’t suffer other major injuries, I think 50 wins is easily within reach trading Randolph for Lee.
But if I was a betting man, I’d put it at, I dunno … 80% that Beans returns to form, 60% that Monta does. Hence the “cautious” optimism.
I’m with you, I think Beans has nowhere to go except up. His great hands disappeared seemingly overnight. Hopefully he regains form.
That being said, the team as a whole, with or without Lee, remain unwilling/unable to defend the upper echelon of teams in the West, imo. I’m not convinced that this mgmt understand what sustainable competitive advantage is. Then again, maybe they do know what it is, and have simply chosen to ignore it for the last 25 years.
I don’t like the idea of having 10-14M/yr being locked in to 3 starting spots on a pretty bad/mediocre team, especially since all 3 players are undersized for their positions, and are liabilities defensively.
But, on the bright side, Curry should be able to rack up a ton of assists, assuming Monta doesn’t hog the ball.
Fact
Biedrins doesn’t make $10M/year. He makes $9M/year. He’s a double/double player when healthy, and that’s a very fair contract for such a player as a big man. His defense is acceptable, and his rebounding is phenomenal (you know, the end of every successful defensive possession?).
Monta is a 2 guard. He is not a PG, last year proved that. Hopefully he can be more successful as a 2 guard. I have the least hope that he’ll be worth his contract because he’s an undersized 2 guard…. easily the most replaceable type of player in the league.
David Lee is an excellent P&R player, a good jump shooter for a big man, and a great rebounder. I’m not happy about paying him $13M/year, but he’s worth it.
We weren’t a terrible team last year, we were a mediocre team that hit the injury bug really hard. Adding a healthy Biedrins, a stud like Lee, further Curry development, and subtracting Monta’s PG attempts will greatly improve the team. Now, I don’t remotely expect it to be contending for a championship, but it’s a step in the right direction. We can eventually look at moving Monta, we have some expirings, some interesting young guys/role players… we could develop a reasonable playoff team. I’d be happy with that.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 7, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Final thought
If Anthony Randolph tomorrow became the player that David Lee is now, we would all be ecstatic. Make the deal.
"My father's name is art, and my name's pride, and while my destiny reads a recipe for confusion I'm looking for whoever writes, so empty inside." -Slug
If AR plays for the right coach.
he is going to be a very good player. Nelson should just leave and never come back. I knew this is going to happens. Like Webber before, AR meant leave because of Nelson. Looks like he and Al Davis are labels as retarded old man of oakland. lol
I'm saddened
After watching the Warriors for years now and seeing some serious franchise potential fly through Oakland, it pains me to see this. The only reason I ever became a Warriors fan is because I wanted to understand how a team could get stuck in NBA purgatory and never really get out. In baseball, the Pittsburgh Pirates have been miserable for over 15 years, but in all reality, they don’t even try to compete. But the Warriors? They try. And they try. And they try.
I think we all know the results.
Reading through all of the posts in the two separate threads, it amazes me how many Warriors fans just don’t get it. I guess it’s kind of like having a long-term girlfriend who is just no good, but for some reason you just cannot leave her. You are lost in that world of relationship drama, your decision making and critical thinking skills are subject to your wildly fluctuating emotions, and you find yourself kind of addicted to the roller-coaster ride.
Since the organization has beaten down the fans over time, those fans lower the standard they expect from the team. They’ve been taught to strive for the #8 seed, and in doing so, they keep getting #12, which just happens to be the worst place in today’s NBA since you neither make the playoffs nor get a very high pick. It’s pretty ironic. I can’t wait for another 37-45 season and all the fans to talk about the improvement of the team.
With regard to this deal, Anthony Randolph, Vlad Radmanovic, and maybe Turiaf or Azubuike for David Lee, who would sign a 5-6 year contract for about $60-75M, the consensus seems to be split 50-50. And that is sad.
Look at the Warriors recent history with any big money dealings or major trades:
- Corey Maggette traded for 30 cents on the dollar in a salary dump
- Stephen Jackson traded for 30 cents on the dollar in a salary dump
- Jamal Crawford traded for 45 cents on the dollar in a salary dump
- Stephen Jackson extended for 3 years, $27M over one year before his contract ended
- Corey Maggette signed for 5 years, $50M as unrestricted free agent
- Elton Brand offered roughly 5 years, $90M as unrestricted free agent
- Gilbert Arenas offered roughly 5 years, $100M as unrestricted free agent
- Al Harrington traded for 90 cents on the dollar
- Monta Ellis signed for 6 years, $66M
- Andris Biedrins signed for 5 years, $48M
- Baron Davis offered 3 year, $36M extension prior to opting out
Shall I go back further?
How many of these major trades benefited the Warriors on the court? How many of these signings were what you would call good ideas? Why would anyone in their right mind have any confidence in the general management of this organization, regardless who is pulling the strings, to do anything right when there’s a lot of money at stake? And given the state of the organization, with a sale looming, this trade is preposterous and franchise crippling. Again.
There are hundreds of posts already, and I agree with what has been said by The Bimbo Coles Experience, Game Six, and JimBarnett2KevinGarnett. Those posters get it.
Still, almost no one has mentioned the most important aspect of this trade: Vlad Radmanovic’s contract. The discourse on Anthony Randolph’s ceiling (not as high as many like to think) or David Lee’s defense (fairly non-existent and not likely to improve in Oakland) is of secondary importance. Vlad’s contract is a big deal. If you make a salary dump or two in today’s NBA, basically waving the organizational white flag for a year or two, then you must use those contracts extremely wisely. The Warriors have serious assets in Vlad’s contract and now Gadzuric’s deal. That’s almost $15M expiring. With a lockout looming and many teams looking to make deals during the upcoming season, the Warriors, armed with new ownership and hopefully new management, could be real players in an active trade market because of those expiring deals as well as cheap assets like Wright, Randolph, Turiaf, Azubuike, and Morrow.
But they won’t be. The Warriors must race to that #8 seed. So, they offer another ridiculous deal, just the latest in a string of big time deals that either did flop or would have flopped, and as a result, they get the #8 pick in next year’s draft.
I guess it’s time to go make up with that girlfriend again.
by UncleCliffy on Jul 8, 2010 2:26 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
don't you think the Warriors will need that money
to re-sign Curry in a couple of years? I’m not saying he’s on the level of Durant, but look at the contract OKC gave him. We don’t necessarily have to trade those expiring contracts for them to be useful to us.
Rec'd for sad truth
There needs to be a focus on a big picture. I understand certain posters inability to start a rebuilding process, but that’s what needs to happen. Again- the main argument seems to be whether or not Lee > Randolph, but that is totally irrelevant. It’s really is a simple concept: draw out your long term goals, set yourself attainable mini-goals to get there.
Stud Point Guard, check
???
Profit
That’s it folks. That’s where we are in the process. We’ve got a wholly unknown entity in the Warriors- no Brandon Wright, no AR most of the year, Mags is gone, Buike missed a ton of time, etc. We’re going out and adding pieces to…what, exactly? We have no idea what we have on our hands. The only thing signing David Lee can accomplish is restricting our financial flexibility for years to come. That’s it.
No more long term contracts to mediocre players. Please. Essentially swapping Mags for Lee. I’m not sure there is a better illustration of the Warriors “reloading” for the Chase for 8th Place better than that.
Who do you think we're going to be able to get with that cap room?
You think LeBron or Wade are going anywhere after this offseason?
The only players better than Lee who’s its conceivable to see moving anywhere soon, but are also young enough that it’s be worth trading for with this team are Gerald Wallace, Chris Paul … maybe Josh Smith. That’s it. The only one of them who seems likely to move is Paul.
Not getting David Lee, in the hopes of being able to snag one of those players later IF they become available seems kind of crazy. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to get Chris Paul … but “hoping we can steal Chris Paul” isn’t much of a plan.
I think one thing that everyone is missing
is that the Warriors will come out of this free agency season looking like a winner…
David Lee is not one of “the three”, but he is certainly one of the top free agents in what is inarguably the best free agent class ever. If you would have told me a few weeks ago we had a chance to pick him up, I would have proposed a bridge to sell you.
The only thing that bums me out is that – whether we knew we were going to get Lee or not – why did we have to pick Udoh? Now that it looks like we may be one good SF away from a “complete” lineup, it would’ve made so much more sense to drop down or even reach to get someone like Paul George or X. Henry. Oh, wellz.
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