Biedrins: Unappreciated and Undervalued
Biedrins: Unappreciated and Undervalued
Dick, you believe in me right? Right?
This article is meant to put Andris Biedrins past performance and contract into perspective. It seems as if people only remember how bad Andris was last season and forget how good he was the previous three, ignoring that Andris had a legit excuse for his poor play: injury. The "what have you done for me lately?" mentality has fans and Larry Riley looking to "dump" Andris and his contract to another team, but is that the right move?
To answer this question we will look at Andris' play measured by WP and WP48. All the data was taken from the Wins Produced Test Suite. This is important to note because the definition of "center" relates to any player who spent at least 50% of the time at center for their team. So this will include players like Pau, Boozer, Amare, etc. who played both PF and C for their teams.
WP48 (average player is .100)
2006 .150 #27 among centers (>500 min)
2007 .215 #15 among centers (>500 min)
2008 .301 #4 among centers (>500 min)
2009 .283 #5 among centers (>500 min)
2010 .205 #17 among centers (>500 min)
Those WP48 shows that even injured Biedrins is at worst a middle tier center and when healthy he is one of the best in the league in terms of WP48. 2006 is his career low but that was his 2nd season in the NBA. Looking from 2007 on will show you how good Andris has been as a starter for the Dub.
People look at the money Biedrins is making and wonder if he is worth that much to the Warriors so let's look at wins produced/million since his new contract came into effect (2009).
WP/Million
2009 1.22 win/million #15 among centers (>500 mins)
2010 .362 win/million #44 among centers (>500 mins)
Looking at these numbers does not tell the whole story because they include players on their rookie contracts. This will favor productive players on rookie deals such as Noah, Love, and Lee. In 2009, 9 out of the 14 centers ahead of Biedrins were still on their rookie contracts. If you throw those guys out Biedrins ranked #6 in wins produced/million among players on non-rookie deals. This means Biedrins provided more bang for the buck outside of McDyess, Przybilla, Howard, Okafor, and Camby in 2009. Even with rookie contracts factored Biedrins would be better than half the starting centers.
You can see 2010 was a disastrous year for Biedrins. I'm not even going to bother to determine what it is compared to those not on rookie deals because Biedrins sucked. People have to remember he played the whole season with a misdiagnosed injury. The previous 2 years of health and stable playing time would be a better barometer of Biedrins' play compared to last years injury plagued campaign.
However, the NBA doesn't base salaries on Wins Produced so let's see how Biedrins' contract fares in absolute terms compared to other players who played the center position as defined by Wins Produced Test Suite.
Overall Per Year Rank Among Centers
2009: #22 in millions per year
2010: #23 in millions per year
In 2009, Biedrins was a great value as the 22nd highest paid center but ranking 10th in Wins Produced (10.98 wins) and 5th in WP48. That production far exceeds his pay rank. The interesting thing is when you view Biedrins' 2010 season through comparison of salary. Biedrins was the 23rd highest paid center in the league and while the injury limited his overall contribution to only 3.26 wins, good for 33rd in Wins Produced (3.26), the quality of the minutes Biedrins did play in ranked 17th (WP48). So even in his injury plagued season Biedrins played well enough to justify his contract, but he did not play enough minutes to earn it.
Now this brings us to the present where Biedrins is the center of trade discussions involving Denver in a straight salary dump it appears for Kenyon Martin. Heading into 2011 Biedrins would be projected as the 18th-19th highest paid center in the league with Dirk, Amare, Bosh, and Boozer commanding more than 9 million with their new contracts and David Lee probably receiving a contract similar to Biedrins. Jermaine O'Neal, Shaq, Brad Miller, and Z would be the only FA centers paid more than Biedrins last year who most likely won't eclipse his 9 million annual salary in 2011.
Since Biedrins became a starter in 2007 he has ranked in Wins Produced as follows:
Wins Produced
2007: 10.67 #12
2008: 13.03 #7
2009: 10.98 #10 vs #22 in salary
2010: 3.26 #33 vs #23 in salary
Now to me that looks like the previous 3 years were similar and 2010 appears to be an aberration due to injury. Despite how bad he was last season, when Andris played he was worth the money (#17 WP48 vs #23 contract). When you look back at his career as a starter Biedrins has ranked no worse than 15th in either WP or W48, but is slated to be only the 18th or 19th highest paid center. In the future, his salary should remain in the same range with players like Noah, Horford, Kendrick Perkins, etc all receiving new deals.
Considering Biedrins' past WP and WP48 it is a safe bet that a healthy Biedrins should outplay his 18th or 19th richest center contract in 2011. So why again are we dumping his salary if it's nearly impossible to replace his production at center by spending the same amount of cash? The only way to get more bang for your buck is drafting a 10/10/60FG% rookie big man or trading for someone like Dwight Howard. Both scenarios are difficult to do, so it doesn't make sense to dump a player who has a history of playing at a higher level then he is paid for.
After looking at his contract in comparison with other centers it looks like Biedrins is not OVERPAID, but UNDERPAID! "Dumping" his salary is giving another team a productive player at below cost. While Biedrins isn't the best center in the league he is far from the worst when healthy (Remember Dampier and Foyle?) and his contract is hardly dead weight. Give him year to rebound into form and he'll go from salary dump to a legitimate trade chip that could get more in return than insurance money... that is if we still want to dump him.
BONUS: Just for those wondering how Biedrins stacks up using PER and Win Score. Using B-R.com this provides a smaller pool of "centers" compared to the Wins Produced Test Suite (listed at center vs play center at least 50% of time) so you can't directly compare it to the salary rankings listed above. However, again it shows when healthy Andris is in the top half of centers and arguably Top 7.
PER (center > 500 min according to B-R)
2006: 13.6 #25
2007: 16.2 #13
2008: 19.2 #4
2009: 19.1 #5
2010: 13 #26
WS (center > 500 min according to B-R)
2006: 2.9 #24
2007: 6.7 #6
2008: 8.0 #5
2009: 5.4 #14
2010: 1.6 #31
Thanks for the REC!
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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There is already another Andris Biedrins post
I don’t know if you noticed but there is another post about Andris Biedrins about the same topic. Wack!!!
Same topic.... different content.
One is post is….
1 paragraph post based largely on opinion and hijacked by drunk Warrior player pictures.
The other is….
Full of numbers and junk.
Not saying one is better than the other, but there is plenty of room for both.
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Not saying one is better than the other
Haha. I’ll say it for you.
Great work, as always.
There will be no extra point!
Sleepy Freud
Hmmmm…..really??? This post is for the technical timmy’s and the other post is for warriors fans to have a sense of humor. Anyone could have copy and pasted stats. It’s good to really hear true Andris fans express how he is actually appreciated. I get that. But your attempt of a jab is uncalled for.
by amerikmasters on Jul 8, 2010 3:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Love that you're sticking up for your wife.
Glad you two are raising a new Warrior fan. Hopefully he/she will never have to experience going a decade plus between playoff appearances.
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Ahh, I think I get it now. You’re a little miffed that I poked fun at the title of your last diary?
If you were the GM of the Warriors (What would you do?) Tell us what you think
Sorry man, you have to admit it deserved fun-poking. That’s the implicit topic of 99% of the threads on this site. You might as well have entitled the diary “Discuss.”
I should also note, as long as I’m now poking fun, that the other Biedrins diary was neither interesting nor particularly “humorous.” Nothing personal, but it was basically fanboyish fluff. The mods here tend to demand a bit more substance and analysis from fanposts. Alternatively, you can put stuff like that under “fanshot.”
Anyway, welcome aboard, and stay golden!
There will be no extra point!
Question
What other Ab post are we talking about here?
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
It’s been hidden.
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2010/7/8/1558344/i-believe-in-andris-biedrins
The gist: anyone who doesn’t like ^^^^ is a big meanie!
There will be no extra point!
Go to the link, it's dead.
I’m sure he got it from his browser’s history.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Browser history...
Good point. I didn’t think of that for some reason. I got confused because the link still works for me. I have the honor of seeing a much more cluttered version of GSoM when I visit the FanPost section. :-)
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
I am actually amazed by how many zombie fanposts there are out there right now
Is it usually just stuff that should have been left as a comment or fanshot? Trolls?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Most of it
Most of the stuff that gets hidden are really short, or not well written. I think Atma’s rule of thumb is that it should be of comparable quality to what you would see on the frontpage. Some of them get left up if there are a lot of comments and people are getting a kick out of it.
In general, if it looks like someone spent some time and effort on it then it gets to stay up. If it looks like someone made it in a couple minutes, never had a real reason for posting, didn’t care to spell the players names right etc. then it comes down.
Every time there is some big warriors news we get tons of fanposts springing up. The hope is that the bad ones don’t push anything someone put some real effort into off of the page.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Interesting tid bits there.
It’s kind of like learning how sausage is made. Good to know.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
And if someone submits 5 bad ones in a row that get taken down
They will immediately write a fanpost complaining how the moderators are censoring people who disagree with them… it’ll get 7 recommendations, discussed ad nauseam by everyone who’s had their poorly conceived fanpost and/or profanity ladden comment.
And then the 6 month timer will reset.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd...
to infinity and beyond. (In honor of Toy Story 3)
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
That was a great movie.
"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 11, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
Flaxwless
i understand and mean no disrespect. We are just having a little fun on the other post.
by amerikmasters on Jul 8, 2010 3:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Rec'd
Great read. It’s very true that people around here are too eager to dump Biedrins after one injury-riddled crappy year without giving him a chance to rebound from it. On the other hand, those same people also want to hold on to Monta for dear life as well under the impression that he will return to his 07-08 form in the near future. It just goes to show that Warriors fans as a whole tend to overreact in one way or the other.
But yeah, the numbers definitely show that Biedrins at $9 million a year is a bargain. When most teams have problems finding good centers, we have the luxury of having a pretty good center (when healthy) locked up for another 4 years or so. We should keep him unless we can find a true upgrade or until he shows that he definitely cannot go back to his pre-injury form, and only then should we look to move him.
Your logic is inconsistent
You have issue with the…
1. People dumping Biedrins prematurely after one poor, injury-riddled season.
2. People not dumping Monta after one inefficient season.
You just want other members to agree with you, which right now, complies with what the non-Atma leaders say… Biedrins will be better, Monta will suck. Using numbers to back this up still arrives to an inconsistent conclusion. Regression to the mean suggests that both Monta and Biedrins will return to more efficient play on a well-constructed roster with a motivation to play hard.
I don’t see why GSoM can’t get over itself and recognize that Riley is at least executing on a plan to build a more balanced team for whoever takes over the reins of this silly organization.
"That’s Chavey; he’s a good athlete. He can play anywhere … except second base. He’s not that good." -M. Ellis
Regression to the mean suggests that both Monta and Biedrins will return to more efficient play on a well-constructed roster with a motivation to play hard.
First of all, what is Monta’s “mean.” If you’re going to talk about regression to the mean that’s fine … but Monta’s mean is actually not very good.
If we wipe out his rookie year (because he’s a rookie) and the post-scooter year (because of the injury), what is Monta’s mean? Monta has ONE very good year. He had one year where he was okay – pretty average, quite frankly, all things considered – and one year where he was downright bad.
The problem with saying “regression to the mean” with Monta is that Monta’s mean is NOT 2007-08. His mean is actually probably 06-07, which is nowhere near as good.
With Biedrins, on the other hand, let’s give him the same benefit of the doubt: take away last year as an injury year, and take away his injury year. Look at his per/36s, what do you get?
You get something that looks pretty similar to his best years. 12 points or so on highly efficient shooting, elite rebounding, low turnovers, reasonable assists, good blocks.
R-ho, your comment is ironic
First of all, what is Monta’s "mean." If you’re going to talk about regression to the mean that’s fine … but Monta’s mean is actually not very good.
point #1: over the course of his career, monta is no good
With Biedrins, on the other hand, let’s give him the same benefit of the doubt: take away last year as an injury year, and take away his injury year. Look at his per/36s, what do you get?
point #2: over the course of his career, biedrins is good
You support this argument with a selective analysis of both players’ statistical values. Monta has played 5 years in this league. Omitting Monta’s rookie year and his post-scooter year, you claim he has only one good year. This omission leaves us with 3 years. (5-2=3) Out of this subset, you argue he had one “good” year (07-08) and one “bad” year (09-10). Does this cancel out? This makes his second year in the league 06-07 very illuminating, perhaps. Interestingly, that was the year he made the rookie/sophomore game and lost out to David Lee as the MVP. I thought Monta deserved the MVP because he dunked everything that Chris Paul threw his way. But, Lee had some good stats. So, I’m not sure I agree with you that his mean is bad.
I think Monta is a great player and team mate. In fact, last year, contrary to JAE and Sleepy, I think Monta deserved to go to the All Star game to reprazent! Why do I make this seemingly ridiculous claim?
Consider these facts from NBA.com…
Ranks #7 in the NBA in Points Per Game (25.5)
Ranks #3 in the NBA in Steals Per Game (2.23)
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Minutes Per Game (41.4)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Minutes Played (2647)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Field Goals Made (631)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Field Goal Attempts (1406)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free Throws (292)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts (388)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Assists (340)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Steals (143)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Points (1631)
Ranks #31 in the NBA in Steals Per Turnover (0.59)
Ranks #6 in the NBA in Field Goals Per 48 Minutes (11.44)
Ranks #5 in the NBA in Field-Goal Attempts Per 48 Minutes (25.5)
Ranks #33 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes (5.3)
Ranks #29 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes (7.04)
Ranks #22 in the NBA in Assists Per 48 Minutes (6.2)
Ranks #7 in the NBA in Steals Per 48 Minutes (2.59)
Ranks #8 in the NBA in Points Per 48 Minutes (29.6)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Total Turnovers (244)
Ranks #20 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking (20.02)
Ranks #4 in the NBA in Turnovers Per Game (3.81)
Ranks #9 in the NBA in Turnovers Per 48 Minutes (4.43)
You get something that looks pretty similar to his best years. 12 points or so on highly efficient shooting, elite rebounding, low turnovers, reasonable assists, good blocks.
Biedrins’ actual career numbers (too lazy to omit 09-10)…
8.1 ppg
8.1 rpg
60.3 fg%
51.9 ft%
1.1 assists
1.3 blks
1.12 to
I am rather amused at the amount of irony in this exchange. An argument based numbers whether old school or new school without any actual numbers, sufficient sample size, nor actual veracity with a conclusion that mirrors the initial flaw in this GSoM groupthink…
that Monta is hopelessly bad, and that Biedrins will be good even though he has some serious deficiencies in his game consistently throughout his career (FT%, effort, durability, defending the post, declining blocks, lack of perimeter game, lack of post game).
You need to be very careful about using the word "selective"
I apply the exact same standard to both players. I remove the rookie year, and I remove the year in which they were both severely impacted by injury. I think that’s a fair way to evaluate what a payer should be capable of when healthy.
Would you like to suggest another standard? Would you like to include rookie and injury years? Because we can do that. It doesn’t help Monta look any better, you know.
Actually, probably you don’t, since it’s abundantly clear that you don’t understand the cost of a missed shot.
Does this cancel out? This makes his second year in the league 06-07 very illuminating, perhaps. Interestingly, that was the year he made the rookie/sophomore game and lost out to David Lee as the MVP.
Well, you know, I’d rather look at the games which actually count – not look at a exhibition game in which nobody plays defense, everybody goes for the flashy move rather than the good one.
But of pro-monta number skipped.
Funny how you left out some other categories in which Monta was among the league leaders. Categories like … shots missed. Turnovers.
To talk about points, or to give a player credit for FGA, without the context of how many shots the players missed is quite frankly moronic. It’s like evaluate a baseball player based on batting average rather than on base percentage. We know that PPG is a lousy stat to evaluate players.
You say you think Ellis should have gone the all-star game, and doesn’t surprise me. Because as has been well-demonstrated (read Berri, “The Wages of Wins”) most people value a player’s contribution to winning, or their eligibility for an all-star game, solely by the number of points per game. (Berri demonstrates that if a player scores more points, but sees decline in every other major positive statistical category, he’ll get more all-star votes.)
I’m not going to walk through your numbers for Monta one-by-one. I’ve done it dozens of time on this board. If you actually pay attention to the numbers that correlate with winning basketball, Monta performed quite poorly. You seem to be one of the few people who hasn’t figured this out yet. Go read Berri, to start. I mean, trying to talk about statistics without doing that is like English literature with a professor from Harvard when you just finished your freshman comp class.
Incidentally, you should look up the word “irony” – it doesn’t mean what you seem to think it means. It’s okay. You have that in common with Alanis Morisette.
You accused me of selectively looking at data, but what did you do here – you cherry picked a bunch of numbers with no rhyme or reason about Monta, and you compared them to career per game averages for Beans. Why? What is the logic of that comparison?
Because, you know, if you want to get all rigorous and walk through the numbers in a serious way, we can do that. I’ve done it before.
But this half-assed horse manure? Sorry, man. You’re going to have to try a little bit harder than that.
Of course, I suspect you more care about
I am rather amused at the amount of irony in this exchange. An argument based numbers whether old school or new school without any actual numbers, sufficient sample size, nor actual veracity with a conclusion that mirrors the initial flaw in this GSoM groupthink…
I chose to emit the numbers because I can gone through them, on both players, many times already. I suspect, however you care more about “reprazenting.”
by Ronaldinho on Jul 9, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Minutes Played (2647)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Assists (340)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Steals (143)
Ranks #1 in the NBA in Points (1631)
There more, but these are particularly glaring. The ones quoted aren’t true. They’re not even all true for our team. Curry played more minutes than Monta last year. Durant led the league in Minutes and scoring.. Most of the stats you chose don’t mean anything.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 9, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I got here a bit late
but the rooke/sophmore game arguement absolutely slayed me.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Jul 10, 2010 9:36 AM PDT up reply actions
It is a good read-
Good work!. Of course the central question is. Will Biedrins return to his 007-008 form? This depends on his healing from his injury and his ability to make free throws. I was very disappointed in his complete loss of confidence.It doesn’t appear to me Nelly has been that excessive in his dealing with him. ( Of course you never can tell ) He’s certainly seemed to come undone after his contract., which I’m sure was more money than he at one time thought he could ever earn.
Somehow, I don’t see Biedrins returning completely to his old self, though he could get close enough, he’d still be a solid player to have. Let’s hope a year from now we can congratulate ourselves in out tolerance and understanding and Biedrins career gets back on track..
by War Years Legacy on Jul 8, 2010 8:52 AM PDT reply actions
I actually would prefer this deal....
I would be happy with a Lee deal that revolved around Biedrins or Ellis as they have bulky long term contracts. I think Lee is a better player than both.
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so what this thread about?
you just trying to up his trade value, hoping some Knickerbockers are reading this? ;)
To show that Biedrins is a good, useful player
who isn’t worth dumping. He’d be useful in a trade because he has a big, but not HUGE contract and is a productive player.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 8, 2010 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I skimmed it
but that’s what the thread is about. That teams should want Biedrins because he’s good and reasonably well paid. If a team wants to offer us a great player, Biedrins could be a valuable piece.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 8, 2010 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions
let me recap
FLAxwless said:
I would be happy with a Lee deal that revolved around Biedrins or Ellis as they have bulky long term contracts. I think Lee is a better player than both.
you said:
To show that Biedrins is a good, useful player
who isn’t worth dumping.
You don’t think those statements seem at odds? They do to me.
You asked what the thread was about
not what flaxwless post was about. I’m aware that it seems at odds.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 8, 2010 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions
he starts a thread about how undervalued and underappreciated Biedrins is
but then he says he would trade him for Lee, just seemed kind of odd.
But also, did you not notice the ;) in my post? I was just ribbing the guy, and you had to go and get all serious.
He thinks that Lee is better than Biedrins
he must really like Lee. This post is based on WP48. By WP48, David Lee is very good. It’s not like he’s saying that he’d trade Biedrins for Michael Beasley or something.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 9, 2010 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I think that Lee would come with his own “bulky long term contract” attached, likely bulkier and running longer than the one attached to Biedrins.
Assuming Lee is signed to around 12 million do you think Lee is worth the extra 3 million per year over Biedrins?
Their stats are pretty similar and neither are defensive stalwarts, but you have to give the edge to Biedrins over Lee. Even when comparing WP48… Lee stacks up very well if not better.
So statistically it’s almost a wash.
On the floor Lee is a better offensive option (more volume, yet high efficiency) who can hit FTs and on defense he rebounds just as well as Biedrins. The man to man defense Lee loses out to Biedrins no doubt about it.
I think it comes down to whether you think Lee’s offense > Biedrins offense is bigger than the gap of Lee’s defense < Biedrins defense.
Would love to hear what others think.
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I'll take both
Biedrins can defend the opponents’ offensive threat, Lee can run the P&R. I’m not excited about giving him $13M/year, but I’ll take it.
Curry
Ellis
Williams
Lee
Biedrins
Still missing something as contenders go, but if Udoh and/or Wright step up, we’ve got a quality front line… and that’s really, really important for success in the NBA. With Curry manning the point and Monta moving off the ball… we’re going to be an exciting scoring team with a front line that doesn’t get killed on the boards. I’m duly excited. If we can pick up an interesting SF for the MLE, I really start liking this team.
Of course, this means that LBJ is going to NYC and that Randolph is going to strangle Nellie in practice.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can deal with $13 mil a year. What’s the big difference between Amare and Bosh compared to Lee anyways? Lee maybe bad on D, but he’s $7 mil cheaper a year.
And even if he’s bad on D, that’s better than Amare grade terrible defense.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Both are suspect defenders....
at least Lee rebounds the rock.
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Yeah, I was just making a quick jab at how awful Amare is on that end in my estimation. I’m no scout, but it looks to me like Amare is the worse on ball defender. But yeah, even if they’re absolute equals in that regard, Lee’s rebounding makes him the more valuable defender.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
And also passes
I’m absolutely certain that Lee is a better player than Amar’e, but Amar’e gets $20 M a year and I’m sure that Lee will end up around $12-$13.5 M a year.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 8, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Riley Plan
Seconded, DFiB. I see this Riley Plan as a simple formula. Get the best starter you can and complement him with a backup that brings an alternative strength.
PG: Curry – Bell (better defender)
SG: Monta – Morrow (better perimeter shooter)
SF: ???? (passing, size, D) – Williams (offensive threat)
PF: Lee – Wright (athleticism)
C: Biedrins – Gadzuric (more size, D)
Udoh brings elite shotblocking and character… Don’t need Turiaf anymore.
Morrow elite 3 pt shooter makes Kaz expendable…
Williams ability to penetrate and shoot 20 footer makes Mags expendable…
Lee brings elite rebounding and low post offense. I am wholly satisfied with what Riley has done this off-season. Its not a great team, but its not a total embarrassment either.
"That’s Chavey; he’s a good athlete. He can play anywhere … except second base. He’s not that good." -M. Ellis
by eshock on Jul 9, 2010 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec
This could almost be it’s own fan post (if it had a bit more analysis). I too totally see the logic in what Riley is doing. The real question is: is the logic they are using going to lead us back to the playoffs?
Here’s who I see the West:
Playoff Locks = Lakers, Thunder, Mavericks, Rockets, Nuggets, Trailblazers
Bubble Teams = Hornets, Suns, Clippers, Jazz
Outside Looking-In Teams: Warriors, Grizzles, Kings, Timberwolves
If the Warriors can get solid defending 2/3 combo SF then they’ve have done enough to get into the bubble group. But as the roster stands right now they’re more like a mid to upper 30s team.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 6 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
Opps... Spurs are a lock team as well
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 6 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
Playoff Locks = Lakers, Thunder, Mavericks, Nuggets, Trailblazers
Bubble Teams = Rockets, Hornets, Warriors, Suns, Spurs
Outside Looking-In Teams: Clippers, Grizzles, Kings, Timberwolves, Jazz
Obviously, many of these teams have some cap room to fill, but there aren’t even any good free agents that can be used to fill that cap room anymore… Udonis Haslem, JJ Redick, and Luis Scola are arguably the best players available None of these guys is going to make a significant difference. One or two of these guys very well might head down to the Heat to play with Los Tres Amigos.
There are just too many teams with too much cap space out there. Phoenix has $15M, Sacto has $25M… but they have bigger holes than us and there’s nobody left to sign who’s any good.
And you can’t put a team that didn’t make the playoffs last year in as a lock. I don’t care that they’re (probably) getting Yao Ming back. They didn’t get there last year, so there’s certainly no guarantee they’ll get there this year. If we pick up a decent SF and resign Morrow, I say we move from the bottom of the bubble to the top of the bubble. And if we remain healthy, we will make the playoffs.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 9, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
thanks for noticing, mac
but i don’t do fanposts here mainly cuz i’m afraid it will either get deleted (i don’t capitalize) or that it will be sadly ignored b/c it lacks the requisite statistical goodness.
i’ll go further to assert that riley may have successfully auditioned himself for a future front office job with a mid-tier team in the future. he conducts himself in a professional manner and was able to balance out a roster with a highly-sought after free agent that is happy to be here without drastically over paying.
but i don’t do fanposts here mainly cuz i’m afraid it will either get deleted (i don’t capitalize)
Why not start? It’s a rule here that you’re supposed to type so that it’s easy to read.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 9, 2010 9:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Regardless...a healthy Beans playing close to previous form is our best hope for the near future.
Dumping Beans or Beans never playing well again is a disaster for us. Centers are hard to come by.
by Only In Fairfax on Jul 9, 2010 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem with trading him for Lee is that it's a marginal upgrade that costs a lot.
Trading Beans for Lee strengthens one positions (PF) while weakening another © while making our contract situation worse. I’m not convinced it improves us very much.
Where I’m more willing to trade Monta (because I think we have good replacements on the roster, so the hit is small) or Randolph (because of the question marks attached to him).
I like Biedrins
I hope he doesn’t develop “Daugherty syndrome” and stays healthy for the remainder of his career.
I love Biedrins.
Every team needs a glass cleaner and Biedrins is one of the best. What I also like is that he knows his place.
That’s why i’m excited the Kings got Dalembert – because he can do what Biedrins does. But hopefully he will know his place in the offense too.
Biedrins totally carried my fantasy basketball team two years ago.
by caseycheesecake on Jul 8, 2010 10:52 AM PDT reply actions
A lot of Warriors fans would gladly trade Biedrins for Dalambert
Simply because Dalambert is big, black, and intimidating, while Biedrins is skinny, white, European, and puts way too much gel in his hair.
I’m probably happier with Biedrins, but I certainly wouldn’t be sad with Dalambert… though Biedrins’ contract is much more palatable… if you guys can re-sign Dalambert to a lesser contract, that’ll be a big boon.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Sam > Biedrins, yeah. He can slam down alley oops. But I like Biedrins too. I wanted him until we got Sam.
Do you think Biedrins will help or hurt Lee’s production? Its not like Biedrins can clear out and hit a 12 footer. But I guess he could set screens all day.
by caseycheesecake on Jul 9, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Lee will be doing the jump shooting
I’m sure they’ll exploit the defense depending on who’s being marked by the better defender. They are both great P&R players, great rebounders, and really good finishers. The ideal situation will be to have Lee working the P&R because he is more versatile and a bigger scoring threat. Biedrins also moves really well without the ball, and can pick up rebounds/find passing lanes if his man comes to help out the two primary P&R defenders.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 9, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Sam > Biedrins, yeah.
I disagree, but I’m sure Sam’s better at the point of attack on D, so… meh.
The big kicker for me is that Biedrins is 5 years younger and locked up to a very friendly $9M each year for the next 3-4 years. You guys have Dalambert at $12.2 for this year, then you’ve got to resign him. Since he’ll be 30 by the time he signs that contract, you’ve got to be very careful about what you pay him and how long.
Meanwhile, Biedrins,at 24 years old, will be here forever for cheap. We might have to resign him, but we’ll get accurate value for him because he’s consistent and doesn’t do flashy things.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 9, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah we have lots of options over there
so who knows if Sam will even be a King past the deadline.
But he definately won’t get a contract like that ever again. And he is a special special rebounder and shot blocker. And the only reason he’s not Biedrins-esque on offense is because of his athleticism.
by caseycheesecake on Jul 9, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
It's the most underrated thing about Biedrins
His athleticism and soft hands… like a baby’s bottom.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 9, 2010 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I just don’t see him throw down oops ever is all…
by caseycheesecake on Jul 9, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
And how often are alley oops even attempted?
Once a game? Once every other game?
Suffice to say, being able to throw down alley oops is not a particularly useful skill.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 9, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Is the Kenyon Martin thing still on?
I wouldn’t be happy about that trade unless it means a bigger move later. I love Biedrins still and I think he can get back on track. So glad he’s not part of the Lee deal.
"Hold it. The Schwarzenegger Library?" - John Spartan after hearing Arnold became President, from Demolition Man
As a defender of Biedrins and WP -
- I think the stat is a little misleading for him last year because of how bad he was on defense.
But I think one of the easiest ways for the Warriors to turn this team around is for Beidrins to get health and return to form. It strikes me as something that could, with Curry running the show, realistically happen.
Yeah
but according to WP48, he was still pretty good in his limited minutes. That’s the issue. He was obviously very poor on defense.
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 8, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
It's going to happen...
With or without Curry running the show. Biedrins was injured, straight up. Just like Maggette the year before… except Biedrins’ injury was way worse and misdiagnosed, to boot.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't disagree with you guys.
He was bad on defense because he was injured. Just, in my mind, that makes his WP number from last year a little suspect.
But careerwise his numbers are excellent and I want to keep him.
Yeah... was just agreeing and extrapolating is all.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Throw in Childress at SF and we’ll really be giving WP the acid test. Curry-Williams/Morrow-Childress-Lee-Biedrins should get us to 50 wins … right?
There will be no extra point!
I wouldn't complain.
I’m just wondering what the team will do with Monta and the two leftover contracts.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Jul 8, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Rec'd
great post as always. Like you, I was really getting fed up of people suggesting that we dump Biedrins.
Pro-Skub for life
Yah it didnt' make much sense to me and......
…hopefully with all the massive deals being throw out there this season people realize Biedrins at 9 million a year is a worthy investment. He’s getting paid as a middle-bottom tier start center when his play is above that.
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It was breaking my heart...
…to watch Beidrins play last year. You could tell that his confidence had hit rock bottom. Along with his terrible FT shooting, he lost his confidence at attacking the rim and even defending. I’m a big fan of his so I really hope he recovers that fire and even if he doesn’t fix his FT, that we will at least have his heart in the game again.
I’m rooting for you Andris.
Good read but....
i still can’t understand why Goose won’t hit the weight room and play more agressive defense. That’s not a lot to ask for and he’d be a much better position defender with more strength. I’d love to see him bulk up and get a few technical fouls trying to dominate the paint.
It just makes me wonder who bad he wants it. How bad does he want to be the best. How bad does he want to win. Looks to me like he just wants to have fun out there.
Wheres Cabarkaba?
"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 12, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Biedrens
According to the median performace of NBA Centers, perhaps Biedrens is undervalued. However, when it comes to freethrow shooting, he couldn’t hit the back of my _ss with a paddle.How can a professional anything have such a quality?
You know what?
His FT% was factored in his WP for last season and he still rates as the 17th best center.
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Warriors' Backcourt is too small
Although Monta can produce a steal or two on defense because of his quickness, his overall defensive ability is suited for the point. Curry, of course, is a strait-up point, so playing the two together (as everyone knows) creates defensive liability.
I would rather trade Curry for a proven 3 or a monster board man than trade Monta. But reality suggests trading Monta. (Perhaps to Atlanta for Williams or Josh.) Atlanta needs a guard who can create his own shot like Monta (or Curry for that matter.)
Monta over Curry?
Sorry but I’ll have to take everything you say from now on with a grain of salt.
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Atlanta needs a guard who can create his own shot like Monta
Like Jamal Crawford and Joe Johnson?
Also- Monta would be the one to go, not Curry
Pro-Skub for life
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 18, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions

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