If Ekpe Udoh Was Not Hurt, What Kind of Numbers Would He Have Put Up in Summer League
by callahan on Aug 22, 2010 6:15 PM PDT
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I think he would have gotten Ed Davis numbers at least. Probably better than that.
From draftexpress.com
Davis is 6-9, 227 lbs, 7 ft wingspan. Best projection: Al Horford. Worst: Udonis Haslem.
Udoh is 6-9, 237 lbs, 7' 4.5" wingspan. Best projection: Jason Thompson. Worst: Hilton Armstrong.
DeMarcus Cousins 14.5 ppg .333 fg% 9.8 reb 1.8 apg 1.5 stl 1.2 blk
Greg Monroe 14.6 ppg .521 fg% 8 reb 1.2 apg 1.8 stl 0.4 blk
Derrick Caracter 15.4 ppg .593 fg% 8.6 reb 1.8 apg 0.4 stl 1.4 blk
Brandan Wright 15.5 ppg .429 fg% 4 reb 0 apg 0 stl 1.5 blk
Al-Forouq Aminu 14.8 ppg .293 fg% 5.4 reb 0.4 apg 1.2 stl 0.6 blk
Ed Davis 12.6 ppg .632 fg% 6 reb 1.0 apg 0.2 stl 1.8 blk
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Honestly, Ed Davis is a better player than Udoh, and another guy I would have much rather taken (especially since we traded Randolph). In college last year, Davis scored 19.2 points per 40 minutes on 60.6% TS% compared to 15.8 for Udoh on 53.5% TS%. Davis was also a much better rebonder – 13.6 per 40 minutes compared to 11.1 per 40 minutes for Udoh. They were pretty comparable on the offensive boards, but Davis was a much better rebounder defensively. Really, overall, there are only 2 areas Davis isn’t better than Udoh at – blocking shots and passing (assists). I think Davis is the much better overall player. Nobody seems to get excited about him, but he does a whole lot well, and should make a good role player. His biggest weakness has always been assertiveness – I never expect him to develop into a big time player, but he’s always been extremely good at playing within himself and playing effectively, and I think he would have been one of the safest picks in the draft. Considering we drafted a 23 year old who isn’t that good….I would have much rather gone the “safe” route and picked a guy who is a great bet to be a very productive role player.
Yes, Udoh was a huge mistake.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 22, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks tafkassam. Good to bring us back to the reality that we really have no idea how good he is yet.
That said, for some reason I have a feeling that Udoh will not be very good…
by freerandolph on Aug 26, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Udoh played well in the NCAA tourney
I admit I didn’t watch him during the season (don’t watch much college ball anymore), but did watch over the internet and TV during the tourney. He didn’t appear to be someone who demands the ball and I wish he did that more often because he can score. He seems more like a team player. Personally, I would have taken Greg Monroe, but since we have Ekpe, I hope he becomes a player we have to find more time for behind David Lee.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
Brandan Wright should get more minutes than Udoh.
He’s been more productive at age 19 and 20 in the NBA, than Udoh was in college at age 23.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 22, 2010 7:29 PM PDT up reply actions
If Udoh becomes a defensive beast, like I truly hope he can become, he should all the minutes he wants. I would love that. I love Brandan, too but for different reasons. They’re both sexy, too, so if I were gay…
Go Andris's free throw shooting!
Brandan Wright needs to show me that he can last a season game first
Remember:
A Warriors fan with low expectations is a happy Warriors fan
by Duby Dub Dubs on Aug 23, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
And that’s one of the things I like about Ed Davis and don’t like about Udoh – while neither demands the ball enough or tries to be assertive or what not, at least Davis is effective about it. Udoh isn’t even that effective on the shots he does take, and you would think since he doesn’t shoot all that much, that those shots should all be high percentage ones….
But yes, can’t change the past, Udoh is our guy now, so obviously we should all hope for the best!
by Missing Barry on Aug 22, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Udoh may not have the high FG% as Davis, but Udoh has more of an all-around game. He should be able to get a lot of blocks because of his 7-4 wing span, leaping ability and good timing. The guy is athletic and a very good to excellent perimeter defender. His mid-range jumper may be rusty when he gets back, because of injuring his shooting hand, but Riley said he has great form and release on his shot.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
I’m not a huge fan of guys that rely heavily on the midrange game. Just not an efficient shot. You have to be a really, really good shooter to make it work well….
For what it’s worth, I was also very unimpressed with Udoh’s ability to attack the rim in the workout video that went around of him. His footwork wasn’t good, and if he doesn’t do a much better job he’s never going to be able to use the threat fo the midrange game to help him get to the rim at the NBA level….
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions
I think a midrange jump shot can be a pretty good asset in a PF. I just don't think Udoh's is effective enough.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Ed Davis was one of those guys I really liked during the college season and somehow mentally forgot about him because everyone kept saying he was a bust
And I feel dumb because his numbers really do show he can be a solid big man. Don’t think he’ll be a star but I do think his game will really translate and he really should have been drafted earlier.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I've watched him, but never was really impressed.
He’s an NBA caliber player in body and athleticism (needs more weight), I just think he kinda floats out there. Maybe this is because he doesn’t have the offensive game.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I suspect I watched Davis as much or more than anyone else on this board over the last 2 years and he was never “impressive” in the sense that you took notice of him whenever he was in the game. But that cuts both ways. I don’t recall him “floating” — he always competed for rebounds, he never shied from contact and he contested shots when someone came into the lane. But he has zip in the way of flash and didn’t seem to have the whatever it takes to demand the ball to demand the ball. That’s very different from “floating”.
So 6th overall is good for a role player?
I’d say no. But this year you can’t really argue convincingly for or against any player.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I suppose not.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
As far as I can tell, everyone we’re talking about is a role player. The only real target that had potential to be more was Monroe.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Correction: everyone we're talking about is a role player, at best...
by freerandolph on Aug 26, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Really?
I could see Monroe or Aminu becoming special.
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 26, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Udoh was drafted for defense
So lay off the stats. What if he becomes comparable to someone like Marcus Camby? Camby another guy who didn’t have most impressive collegiate rebounding stats.
I hate doing this sort of comparison, but I like idea he was picked because of defensive potential. God knows we could use that
What if Al-Farouq Aminu becomes Shawn Marion?
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 23, 2010 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions
If Aminu had Nash with him.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
And I’ve said a few times that to be a good pick, he has to be an impact defensive player. That doesn’t just mean blocking shots, that means on ball defense, defending the rim, and grabbing boards. It’s probably not out of the realm of possibility, but I see a couple of problems. First, rebounding stats translate very accurately from college to the pros. That doesn’t mean there aren’t exceptions, just that guys who change ARE exceptions. Unfortunately, Udoh didn’t show much rebounding prowess in college, though I’ll at least note he did improve a decent amount in his final year (though he still wasn’t that good, especially defensively). Second, I guess I’m just not that high on his defensive potential. He isn’t a physical freak like Thabeet or anything. Solid athleticism, but the draft websites question his explosiveness, and while he has a good wingspan, his standing reach isn’t that great so his length doesn’t seem to be that impressive. Solid athleticism and solid, but not impressive size is…..alright, but nothing special. Fourth, he sat out two years ago and played zone last year, so I’m not sure how much he’s even worked on defensive fundamentals (though in fairness college defense and NBA defense are quite different so there’s a pretty decent learning curve for everyone). Third, I think there were other guys with defensive potential available. Specifically Aldrich and even Davis.
Anyways, I don’t like to talk about his defense nearly as much as his offense and rebounding because I really don’t know nearly as much about it. If we really think he’ll be a defensive presence, I understand that thought process. I question whether that’s really what lead to the pick. I do want to wait and see him play and see how he does. If he impresses on the defensive end, then I have no problem admitting the Warriors knew stuff I did not and they were clearly right while I was wrong. I am going to judge him early on, though – he’s not a project, he’s 23, he should be coming in and producing early. If he’s not, and if he doesn’t show some real nice defensive abilities (and not just solid defense, but potential to be a very good defender), then I will declare it a bad pick and say I called it.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions
talk about his defense nearly as much as his offense and rebounding because I really don’t know nearly as much about it. If we really think he’ll be a defensive presence
Exactly, so why not give Riley the benefit of the doubt? So far he’s shown to have a good eye for talent.
A few reasons for me, personally. First, I’m skeptical basketball has gotten to the point where GM’s properly use statistics, and the statistics are a pretty big red flag on Udoh. Second, I’m not seeing anything that suggests to me he really has that defensive potential – basically, his physical traits are solid but not overly impressive. Seems to me Aldrich has him beat in pretty much every way if we’re just talking defense. Third, I fear that Riley thinks a strategy of going after older, more experienced college guys in the draft is a good one. He’s said that’s his preference, and his picks have reflected that. With Curry, it worked out great, and if there’s ever a guy who really is talented enough to be the best pick, we shouldn’t pass him up just because he’s old. In general, though, the younger picks become better players.
So that’s why I’m hesitant to give Riley the benefit of the doubt. I underestimated Curry, and he nailed that pick, so I’ve been wrong in the past and have no problem admitting it. If I’m wrong again, I’ll probably be more willing to give Riley the benefit of the doubt in the future.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not seeing anything that suggests to me he really has that defensive potential – basically, his physical traits are solid but not overly impressive.
Thats where i disagree. Though physical traits help, many of the top defenders aren’t the most explosive or athletic. Like offense there is a skill to defending. I think you’re just having a hard time grasping it cause you can’t quantify it numerically.
This has nothing to do with Udoh, I’m undecided on him. I’ll give him a chance, why not. I like Riley so far, and until he gives me a notorious POB or Ike Diogu, I won’t kill him just yet.
Thats where i disagree. Though physical traits help, many of the top defenders aren’t the most explosive or athletic. Like offense there is a skill to defending. I think you’re just having a hard time grasping it cause you can’t quantify it numerically.
I mean, I did play competitive basketball for a good portion of my life. I know a thing or two about the sport that doesn’t come from spreadsheets. Of course defense involves skill, but physical traits are more important to defense than to any other aspect of basketball. Most of the top defenders in the league DO have great physical traits – for instance, look through the list of guys who lead the league in block rate. It’s guys like Thabeet, Oden, JaVale McGee, Birdman…guys with very good physical traits. The most dominating defensive forces of the last ~10+ years are guys like Dwight, Ben Wallace, Mourning and Dikembe. The only great wing defender that comes to mind for me that wasn’t a very good athlete is Battier, but guys like Rondo, Pippen, Artest….all exceptional physical tools. Some of the good wing defenders now – from Mbah a Moute to Thefalosha to Balkman – again, very good physical tools. Physical tools, especially length, are incredibly important to defense.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I throw Ariza in the exceptional physical tools discussion
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 24, 2010 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh a couple more guys that absolutely have to be on the list – Garnett and Rasheed. Still effective because of their length, but not even close to what they were in their prime.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Not going to lie, it's a fun list to think about.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 24, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions
According to Synergy and my eyes
Garnett’s defense remains largely the same. Not best defensive player good, but top 5 for a post man.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 24, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
The issues with Garnett now wouldn't show on Synergy
It has to do with age/fatigue/wear and tear.
But yes last 2 minutes of a game, i feel pretty damn good with Garnett manning up opposing post player.
Why wouldn’t synergy not show Garnett’s issues. It records every play he’s been involved with in the season.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 24, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Meant to have question mark.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 24, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Because he is still a quality player
But cannot do it over a whole season, heck a whole game in full starters minutes cause of his age/injuries over the years. Does that make sense?
Dunno what you see, cause I see a guy who doesn’t have anything close to the mobility he used to.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
But his effectiveness has remained largely the same.
Synergy isn’t lying about this stuff.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 24, 2010 8:45 PM PDT up reply actions
You have the Synergy numbers from 2003?
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 24, 2010 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I do remember the KG that was fairly effective in guarding both Shaq and Kobe in the same game….
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 7:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah his awesome length is something that isn’t going away.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
According to Synergy and my eyes Garnett’s defense remains largely the same.
How so? I thought the data only went back to last season? How can you compare old KG with prime KG?
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Well since it’s still so good, i can’t see how theres a huge droppoff.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 25, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Well since it’s still so good, i can’t see how theres a huge droppoff.
watch film of the lakers finals this year and when he was on the Twolves.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 25, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
because for his prime
he was always one of the 2 or 3 best defenders in the league and one of the best all time. He was just so athletic.
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 25, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m starting to see what you guys are saying. He went from legendary to excellent.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 25, 2010 9:20 PM PDT up reply actions
U talk like Riley woulda took Udoh over Cousins. It just so happens he thought the older player was the best at 6.
He's talking like Riley would take Udoh over Monroe, Alrich, Aminu, and Davis.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions
And the point missing barry had
was that it is not hard to blame riley for that. I would also like to mention that you aren’t going to change Missing Barry’s opinion and I am pretty sure Missing Barry knows he isn’t going to change yours. Obviously you both are taking educated guesses and don’t know the answer. It is what it is and all there is left to do is wait.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 24, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m calling it a bad pick, and laying out my reasons why. I’m doing it in advance because using hindsight isn’t fair. I see real reasons to think, at the time of the pick, it wasn’t a good pick. If Udoh doesn’t turn into a solid player, I think it was predictable and it was a bad pick, as opposed to getting unlucky with injuries or the crapshoot as to whether a guy develops or not. Those are things outside of a GM’s control, and not things I would really give the GM much blame for. This is entirely within the GM’s control, so it better work out. If not, that’s a HUGE negative in my book.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I wish I could find rebounding percentages.
Looking at Camby’s PER 40 rebounding though yeah not that overally impressive. I would like to point out though that Camby was a consensus National Player of the Year selection by the Associated Press, U.S. Basketball Writers Association, CBS/Chevrolet, Basketball Weekly and The Sporting News and had won the Naismith and Wooden Awards as Player of the Year and was selected First Team All-America by AP, UPI, USBWA and Basketball Weekly.
I understand you are only talking about rebounds here. I just want to make sure nobody thinks we are talking about Udoh being as good a prospect as Camby.
I also question how someone who couldn’t get defensive rebounds will be able to increase his rebounding numbers much.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah I know
I just can’t get Camby’s though
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 24, 2010 8:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Camby's:
ORR: 8.9%
DRR: 20.1%
TRR: 14.6%
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 24, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
For the sake of posterity
Udoh’s:
ORR: 12.8%
DRR: 17.9%
TRR: Don’t know but I think we get the idea
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 24, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I use statsheet for college guys, but I don’t think it would go back nearly far enough for Camby, who does appear to be an exception when it comes to rebounding (in that he dramatically improved). His improvement was actually while he was in the NBA, though – a very similar path to Garnett.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions
I know what you're saying, but sorry, that's a crummy reason for picking Udoh.
One takes Derrick Favors for his defense. The guy has it over Udoh in size and athleticism. He could be a dominant defensive force like Camby. Udoh needs to get his legs stronger so he can bang and hold his own down low.
Udoh was picked because he was NBA ready and has an all-around game. Expecting him to be better than Ed Davis’ performance in summer league is, well, to be expected.
I would have to surmise Riley wasn’t sure he could get David Lee and thought Anthony Randolph still needed seasoning. If he knew Lee was in the bag, then he may have picked Monroe or traded down and picked Xavier Henry or someone else.
Ironic how AR’s lack of development comes back and bites the W’s in the rear.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
Actually getting Udoh made it easy to get rid of Randolph. The reason the Dubs got such a low draft grade was because we drafted Udoh and had Randolph which was redundant.
I think we're talking about the same thing in a different way.
We agree Riley wanted to get rid of AR and I gotta think he took Udoh because he was the BAP at #6 (which we probably disagree on). My BAP was Monroe. Who was your BAP? Still, I think if Riley had David Lee, then he might not have taken Udoh, but Monroe. I dunno. My logic probably doesn’t follow, but Riley may have drafted for need then.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
I think Initially I allowed emotions to say Monroe was the best pick for this team. And on draft day i left Oracle pissed with the Udoh pick. However i tried to think of why would Riley take Udoh and the 1st thing i thought was Defense. Monroe would not have been good enough to start over Biedrins for at least 2 or 3 years imo. So he’d be coming off the bench for us and what would he be bringing when he came off the bench? Passing? Rebounding? I dont know how good of a NBA rebounder he would be but i do know we need defense more than passing. Udoh is a guy that could stop the other teams best 4 night in and night out POTENTIALLY. I dont think there is no way Monroe will ever be a better defensive player than Udoh. Better on Offense but not on Defense. And when u have to play guys like Dirk and Aldridge and Gasol and Griffin on a regular basis its good if u can have somebody who can slow them down which is the reason i think Riley took Udoh. Unless we can get a Dominant low post scorer i dont mind taking a Defense-first type player over a guy like Monroe.
f Ekpe Udoh Was Not Hurt, What Kind of Numbers Would He Have Put Up in Summer League
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 22, 2010 6:59 PM PDT reply actions 4 recs
He would have been solid
in Summer League. Not Anthony Randolph great and not horrible.
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What if...
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Move on.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 22, 2010 8:02 PM PDT reply actions
Sucks he probably wont be back till all star break..
PFortyy :)
'11 Champs!
Who cares about summer league.
Anthony Randolph scored 42 points in a game. I repeat Anthony Randolph scored 42 points in a game. It bears no significance once the season starts.
I liked Udoh better than Davis. I still like Udoh better than Davis. Davis is too redundant of what we already have in Biedrins. Davis has no offensive game to speak of outside of garbage buckets. He’s a decent lottery prospect, but as people have said before, more of a role player. Udoh must have been 6th overall because he combines a bit of everything you want in a player. He can defend well, block shots, rebound for you, and has a limited post game and a jumper. The only other guy that comes close to being a decent two way player is Aldrich.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I don’t think Davis is like Biedrins at all. He actually reminds me of Wright to some degree – he’s got nice touch like that and some actual offensive post skills. I think you’re underselling him as a “no offensive game to speak of” guy.
Udoh must have been 6th overall because he combines a bit of everything you want in a player. He can defend well, block shots, rebound for you, and has a limited post game and a jumper.
I guess I just don’t see that. For all those things you mentioned….well, he didn’t rebound well in college, nor did his jumper/post game allow him to score much or score efficiently, so I guess I just don’t see where that comes from. For all of Davis’ “no offensive game”, he still managed to both score quite a bit more and quite a bit more efficiently than Udoh. Unless Udoh’s improved significantly on what he was able to do in college, I’m just not seeing a reason to be optimistic about those things. Add in his age, and I’m really struggling to find reason to be excited. I also like Davis because he’s bulkier than Wright – he should be a better matchup against stronger post PF’s.
I also would have preferred Aldridge, and if we want to keep Lee at PF, he might have made more sense than Davis, as well.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Who's aldridge?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 23, 2010 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Cole Aldrich, presumably.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 23, 2010 7:04 PM PDT up reply actions
David, LaMarcus, then Cole.
Is what comes to my mind first.
Now that we have Lee, maybe Aldrich does make a bit more sense. I think Udoh will be good though. He is on the older side as far as prospects go, but he has a decent foundation to build his skills. Who says he can’t improve. Davis is going to take much longer to develop, which did go into the decision making process for the Warriors.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I don’t buy that Davis will take longer to develop. Davis is better at a number of things right now. And of course Udoh can improve, and will improve, the problem is he’s at the age where he’s likely to improve a lot less than his draft class peers.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I hated the drafting on Udoh when it was announced. But since then i went and really thought about why Riley did it. At the 6 spot who was better than Udoh for this team? Monroe woulda been nice but he is not a presence on defense. Udoh jumps higher than Monroe and has a better jumpshot and is just as good a passer and has a longer wingspan. I mentioned he jumps higher because that relates to shot blocking. So when it come Bigs that were available at 6 I like the Udoh pick simply because he can do it all and dont need the ball in his hands to be effective unlike Monroe.
Not terribly important but I am curious
Monroe woulda been nice but he is not a presence on defense. Udoh jumps higher than Monroe and has a better jumpshot and is just as good a passer and has a longer wingspan.
Monroe in his own right looks to be the best passing big man in the draft but what I am curious about is the part about Udoh having the better jumpshot. I can’t look up stats right now but are we sure his jump shot was better than Monroe’s?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Ed Davis or Cole Aldrich were two players that didn’t excite me at the time (because Davis was too similar to Wright/Randolph, and Aldrich to Biedrins), but still players I would have rather had than Udoh. Also Monroe based on potential. The kid is 19. Aminu was always a ? for me – if evaluators thought he could turn into a nice defensive 3, I would have preferred him, but I have no idea whether we thought that or not. Trading for Lee after the draft also changed things, and I’m not sure how fair it is to judge with that move in mind or not.
And people keep saying this thing about “Udoh can do it all”….where does it come from? He didn’t even “do it all” at age 22 against college players, so why do we all of a sudden think he really can “do it all”?
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Did u see him in the Tourney? What didnt he do? His post game was working and so was his jumper and he averaged close to 4 blocks per game. What dont u like about Udoh’s game?
In the NCAA tournament, he averaged 2.25 blocks a game playing 35 minutes a game. He averaged 13.5 points per game. 9.5 rebounds. In short, it was much like his regular season – 15.4 points per 40 in the tournament compared to 15.8 over the season. Even less efficient in the tournament – 45.9% TS%. Pretty underwhelming for an NBA prospect if you ask me. What I don’t like about Udoh’s game is he isn’t much of a rebounder, and he doesn’t have a very effective offensive game, either.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
I never thought of him as a go to scorer. 1 year ago the grizzlies took Hasheem Thabeet just for his Defense. So picking a guy at 6 just for his defense dont seem all that bad. As far as his rebounding goes he does need 2 improve on the defensive glass. But i dont see any flaws in his offense at all. If he averaged 12 points and 2 blocks for his career id say he was worth the pick. At 6 i just dont see anybody that we needed more than Udoh. U take the best Big on defense and hope for the best. Id rather have Udoh guarding Dirk than Lee. Id rather have Udoh guarding Boozer than Lee. Id rather have Udoh guarding Dwight than Lee. U get my point.
I would be stunned if Udoh avereged 12 points for his career
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions
I like defense, too. It’s half the game. If Udoh turns into a legitimate defensive monster, I will admit the Warriors did a great job and I was wrong. I’m just hesitant to expect that – he’s not a 7’3 freak like Thabeet or anything, he’s coming out of a zone defense in college – I like his blocks, but blocking shots alone isn’t enough. Controlling the boards, defending the rim, providing good help D, being a good on ball defender….all things you gotta do to have a real impact. And I don’t see him scoring 12 points a game OR doing it efficiently, so there’s a whole lot he’s going to have to do to make up for it on defense.
Id rather have Udoh guarding Dirk than Lee. Id rather have Udoh guarding Boozer than Lee. Id rather have Udoh guarding Dwight than Lee.
True, though unfortunately you can’t sub him in for just defense. I’d rather have Lee going against all of them because what Lee will do offensively will make up for his bad defense…..
U take the best Bigon defenseand hope for the best
That’s how I see it. I was ok taking the best big. I just don’t see a case that’s Udoh. If you want D – Aldrich was the guy, he even blocked more shots than Udoh did in addition to being better at everything except passing. If you want a well rounded role player who should give you a little of everything, Ed Davis is another better pick. If you want potential, well there’s a 19 year old with very nice size on the board in Monroe. I just keep coming back to a guy who put on an underwhelming performance in college, and then realize he was 22 while doing it, and it’s just real hard to get excited about his future. At best, he becomes Ronny Turiaf. More likely, he’s Adonal Foyle with more offensive skill (but still not “good” offense, overall).
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions
He has a Jumpshot which kinda kills the Turiaf comparison. He’s kinda hard to compare with any other player because he can do so many things. I dont think Aldrich was better on defense. Also Udoh is a better Athlete than Turiaf. Personally I think Udoh can be Randolph minus the mistakes. Like i said earlier its all about trusting Larry Riley which i do. I dont think he would take a bad player at 6th knowing his job was on the line. I think he looked at every player available closely and took the best guy.
his jumpshot better be pretty amazing to jump from Turiaf to Randolph
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ll try to find some footage for u. He has a better wingspan than Randolph which is impressive being that Randolph is taller than him. Randolph just has a 2 inch higher vertical.
I won't argue the wing span and I won't argue his ability to contest shots
I will argue whether his jump shot is all that impressive though and whether he can get defensvie boards at a good rate
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I doubt his defensive rebounding myself. However u can peep some of his jumpshots on youtube. Every draft site said he has a J. I think he can be our Joakim Noah but with a better offense.
u can peep some of his jumpshots on youtube.
What is that going to tell me? Seriously, why not just compare his jump shot to other players who came in the league who were known as mid range shooters? I pray and hope he makes enough jump shots to make a youtube video if he ever dreams of playing in the NBA.
Every draft site said he has a J. I think he can be our Joakim Noah but with a better offense.
That would probably be a pretty crazy exageration and I would be shocked how quickly people forgot about Noah in college. A huge part about Noah’s game is rebounding. I also don’t recall Noah playing zone in college. Although I can’t look up Noah’s stats right now I would love to see Noah’s stats his senior year and compare them to Udoh. I have a feeling Noah would look like a better all around pro prospect.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
They're nothing alike.
The only thing similar between them would be their block percentages and offensive rebounding. Noah was a much better defensive rebounder, had a much, much higher TS%, higher usage and a higher assist percentage.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
U’d be wrong. Udoh averaged more points, blocks and Rebounds than Noah did in his final year in college.
well shoot when I said I can't look it up I meant it
so someone please just throw it up
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Randolph had almost 3 inches of standing reach on Udoh. Udoh’s wingspan actually seems to overestimate his reach – his standing reach is actually below average for his height, so he may just have a wide torso or something.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Randolph is also 2 inches taller than Udoh. And udoh has a better no step vertical. Dont get me wrong i had my doubts about the Udoh pick but i like it more than the Monroe and Aminu option. And I’d rather have D.Wright instead of us draft paul george or Henry.
You won’t find things like “average explosiveness” on Randolph’s draft profile, though….
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I was wondering how he'd have decent height and good wingspan
and yet such a below average standing reach. It perplexes my mind.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I imagine he'd look a lot like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAt-tUiCq3I
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
He may have stubby arms with his wingspan coming from having incredibly broad shoulders. He may also possess a long neck or a lengthy head.
by the evil monkey on Aug 25, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I dont think Aldrich was better on defense
I do. He played in a man defense, he was projected to be a strong defensive C, he blocked more shots, he rebounded better, and he even had better measureables – Aldrich was taller, had a barely bigger wingspan, and a significantly better standing reach.
He has a Jumpshot which kinda kills the Turiaf comparison
If you want an exact comparison down to every last ability for a player, you’ll never get one. He’s a guy who’s a good but not exceptional athlete, blocks shots, is a subpar rebounder, good passer, has a similar build to Turiaf – I see a whole lot more similarities to differences, only I’m not sure Udoh will even be as good (and Turiaf wasn’t that good). I also stil question all this jumpshot stuff. A jumpshot is nice, but if you have one and still can’t score efficiently, who cares? I also don’t see the Randolph comp. Udoh isn’t supposed to be a ridiculous athlete like that. Plus he’s already 2 years older than Randolph.
Like i said earlier its all about trusting Larry Riley which i do. I dont think he would take a bad player at 6th knowing his job was on the line. I think he looked at every player available closely and took the best guy.
I think he did that, too, but GM’s can make mistakes, and I believe Riley overvalues older guys with college experience. It worked with Curry. It’s a bad strategy overall, though. I also think a lot of GM’s haven’t figured out how to use statistical anlaysis very well, and this is a case where the statistics are throwing out a huge red flag.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Curry
Lee
Noah
are good examples of Older guys who were drafted later than they should have been. I think Udoh will have as good of a career as anybody drafted behind him if not better.
Curry
Lee
Noah
Are good examples of Older guys who were drafted later than they should have been drafted because people missed how good they actually were. Look at Noah’s numbers in college. Look at Curry’s. They were pretty darn good numbers compared to the likes of Udoh.
I personally haven’t looked at Lee’s numbers in a long time but I do know that in high school he was a stud prospect out of the St. Louis area and I would bet his numbers weren’t bad (although do recall he broke his leg or something in college)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
On average, older guys end up being worse players than younger guys. Curry came into the league at age 21. The other two were 22. Udoh was 23. Udoh was also the worst college player of the 3….
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I would personally focus more on this
Udoh was also the worst college player of the 3
There isn’t a direct correlation between age when you are drafted and whether you are going to be good. The reason older guys end up being worse across the board is because often those older players weren’t good enough to be drafted among their peers so they stayed in college a few more years. Even if they show improvement by their senior year, often that improvement shown is not enough to suggest that player has turned into an NBA quality player.
Curry and Noah though were kicking butt before their senior year and could have left early and been drafted but didn’t.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
There isn’t a direct correlation between age when you are drafted and whether you are going to be good
There is a correlation.
The reason older guys end up being worse across the board is because often those older players weren’t good enough to be drafted among their peers so they stayed in college a few more years. Even if they show improvement by their senior year, often that improvement shown is not enough to suggest that player has turned into an NBA quality player.
This explains a lot, and maybe even all, of the causation. It’s a general trend. When a guy talks about his drafting strategy going against the general trend, that worries me. When we pick a guy like Steph, that’s fine, especially with hindsight we really know he had the skills. When we pick a guy who looks like the poster child for why the trend exists – just not that good, and his contributions as a senior are overvalued because he SHOULD beat up on younger guys even if he’s not that talented – well….that really worries me.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I dont think he would take a bad player at 6th knowing his job was on the line.
Well not purposely obviously. He probably took the safe conservative pick, the one designed to draw the least criticism? Who can argue with “getting more defense”? Who can argue with “a guy who wants to be here” (probably the best one liner to come out of this draft) or a guy who wears a suit and tie to a basketball workout
( that’s gotta count for something?)??
After Wall and Cousins were gone the draft was pretty much a wash but looking at the players film I’d have taken PaulGeorge just on style points.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 23, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
C’mon. Give the kid a break. He’s playing against better competition. NCAA tourney weighs more. He isn’t a great rebounder because he gets blocked out. He definitely needs to get stronger in the legs; My biggest concern for his NBA game. As for his offensive game, we’ll have to defer to Larry Riley and Don Nelson. They said his form and release point is NBA ready.
Of course, all of this could be moot because Udoh will have to play backup to David Lee and will have trouble getting on the court with the injury. If Nelson or whoever the coach is gives him a chance and he needs to find time for Udoh, then it will be a worthwhile season for Udoh.
I’m not saying we should’ve taken Udoh at #6. We should’ve grabbed Monroe or traded down for Henry, but since we got Udoh now, I don’t think he’s a total bust. He could be good enough to return a future #1 pick in case we end up trading him.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
I don’t think minutes will be a problem when he’s healthy. We’re woefully thin up front, and finding minutes for big men hasn’t been a problem for us for some time now…..
The whole point with the tournament is I talked about his performance not stacking up to his peers and someone else said he played well in the tournament. I was merely pointing out that didn’t really seem to be the case. I would say all games are pretty much equally meaningful, the difference is you expect a better performance against bad teams and worse performance against good teams.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok, you have a point about being thin up front. Hope Udoh gets healthy. Fast. Have to respectfully disagree about tournament play, especially when it’s a big one like the NCAAs. It’s different. Everything is magnified. Summer league is weird, too. If you’re not drafted, then you have to impress to get a shot in the NBA.
"Go ahead. Make my day."
Your thoughts do make sense, but honesty, thoughout sports in general, my observation has been whether the game is more important or not, whether you’re playing a good or bad team…..it tends to be an N =1 situation. That is, it’s just one more game to add to your sample in terms of how much meaning, statistically, you can take away from the game. Whether we’re talking about playoffs, major league vs minor league performances, or what a college guy does against top 25 teams or any other teams – it adjusts the player’s expected output, but it doesn’t really adjust how much weight that observation has….
As for summer league, honestly, I really just ignore summer league altogether.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
i think certain stats
show that players often perform worse in the playoffs, like WP48
Goal: 8 seed!
it adjusts the player’s expected output
Yeah, your competition level in the playoffs is harder, so you’re expected to do worse. I don’t know specific to basektball, but in baseball, pretty much every players playoff performance is just a function of their normal talent level and the harder competition – that is, players dont change their talent in the playoffs. One playoff PA gives us the same amount of information about a players “talent level” as one regular season PA.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m kinda confused here.
you’re saying that playoff performance should just be amalgamated into the total number of games played and not be considered as a different category, thereby diminishing the concept of “big game” performances. However, you admit that in the playoffs players do display a significant drop in their statistics. If a player is able to resist that change and post higher than the drop expected, shouldn’t he be recognized?
Goal: 8 seed!
If a player is able to resist that change and post higher than the drop expected, shouldn’t he be recognized?
Sure, I’m just not a big believer in this actually happening, at least in baseball. I’m skeptical of it in basketball, but willing to admit I know much less about it than baseball.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
and finding minutes for big men hasn’t been a problem for us for some time now…..
Have you seen Nellie’s small ball antics over the last 2 years?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 24, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions
And despite them (which yes, I acknowledge and despise, as well), we still had minutes to go around for Chris Hunter, Mikki Moore, Radmanovic and Anthony Tolliver. And I will say, while I’m down on Udoh, I do think he at least provides some value over replacement players. He’s not going to be horrible or anything.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Udoh was a reach at six. There's really no way around that.
But like you said in a different thread string, we just have to hope for the best.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed
I like Udoh as a roll player. Should we have drafted a roll player with the #6 pick or gambled on a player like Davis, George or Aminu? At the time we still hadn’t made the Lee trade so it’s tough to argue for a guys like Davis and George who most analyst thought would be project type players when we already had a project in Randolph not getting the minutes need to develop on our roster. Aminu made a lot of sense, but personally I didn’t like his game and preferred a guy like Patrick Paterson over them. Looking back, it would have been great for the Warriors to take a gamble on George or Davis, but I guess that’s one of those hindsight is 20/20 type things.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 7 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
I think your evaluation of Davis couldn’t be farther off. He’s not a project or a gamble at all. He’s a guy who’s going to contribute early, who’s a great bet to be a productive player….if you’re looking for a role player, honestly, he’s the guy. That said, I also don’t think he has a very high ceiling. Another possibility was Aldrich.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Davis is a project.
He’s a skilled project (and it’s not a presage of greatness for Udoh that Davis is already better than him), but still a project (much like Wright).
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Completely disagree. He’s going to come in, rebound, show some nice touch around the hoop, play a little defense….all stuff that shouldn’t take him long to start doing, he really already does it. That’s the player he’s going to be – he does a bunch of little things well, and he’s always going to be that player. If your “project” is to turn him into more than that, honestly, I think it’s a waste of time – he didn’t even try to take over games in HS, much less college. No reason to think he’ll all of a sudden turn into a different player and person in the pros.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
There are two types of project players, generally.
Ones who have the physical tools but need to add the skillset to go with them (like Aminu or George), and ones who have their basic skillset intact but need the physical tools to execute it well enough at the NBA level. Davis, for me, is the latter type.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
need the physical tools to execute it well enough at the NBA level
Care to elaborate? I’m not sure what you mean, exactly.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure.
What I mean is that there are players that need to develop physically before they can be NBA contributors. We saw a lot more of this before the new rules with HS players, but it still happens pretty frequently. Brandan Wright is a good example. He physically wasn’t ready for the NBA, and I don’t believe Ed Davis is either.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions
your evaluation of Davis couldn’t be farther off
Missing Barry I love reading your commentary on the various fanshot/posts and respect your opinion. But I think Davis was widely viewed as project headed into the 2010 draft
I’m a big fan of Jonathan Givony Draftexpress.com site and here is quick look at some his thought on Davis right after his wrist injury.
Digging deeper, though, and seeing the glaring offensive limitations he showed as a freshman, it was pretty obvious that Davis was always going to need time to develop into the player many envision him becoming down the road.
Looking at his physical profile, Davis continues to sport an outstanding frame that is still at least 2-3 years away from fully filling out. His wingspan is outstanding on top of that, and allows him to play much bigger than his size.
He displays a strange blend of athleticism, on one hand running the floor extremely well and being fairly explosive around the rim, but on the other lacking a significant amount of fluidity and reactivity, being somewhat upright and clearly on the mechanical side. From time to time you’ll see him make some extremely impressive plays, but for the most part it’s difficult to describe him as being a great athlete at this point in time, at least in terms of his ability to actually utilize his athleticism
http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NCAA-Weekly-Performers-21910-3398/
To me just these select paragraphs scream project. This is not say that he won’t be productive for the Raptor this season, because if nothing else he’s going to get the requisite play time necessary to grow and develop into a more well rounded player. I do not see Nellie giving any more playing time or leeway to him than he did to Randolph. And if Udoh is what he is (good shoot blocker and decent rebounder) then he might just find some minutes. Granted if Lacob fires Nellie then that argument is a bit mute. Thanks for the contrasting opinion.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 7 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
I think people have very different definitions of project
I know a lot of people when they talk about big men being projects they talk about a big man who doesn’t have much skill yet.
Personally, when I think of project I just think of whether the guy can positively contribute. For instance, I personally don’t think Dwight Howard or Nene were really projects when they first came into the league.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I know a lot of people when they talk about big men being projects they talk about a big man who doesn’t have much skill yet.
When I think of big man projects, I think of a guy who has the physical tools to be great, but isn’t quite there. Guys like Randolph and Thabeet scream project.
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 23, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the draft pundits completely missed on their evaluation of Davis. They see him and see Brandan Wright. He is not Brandan Wright. He is much more physically developed (outweighed Wright by 27 pounds at their respective combines), he has a much better basketball sense than Wright did entering the league, and he does things well that will allow him to contribute early – moreso than Wright. He’s ready to play early on. The kid isn’t a project, especially since he has a low upside. He’s going to come in, rebound, get some putbacks and generally show nice touch around the hoop, pick up defense quickly….and that’s the player he’s going to be. He’s really nothing like Wright, or even Randolph, at all.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I think the draft pundits completely missed on their evaluation of Davis. They see him and see Brandan Wright.
I think a whole lot of ‘pundits’ can’t see past the NC logo on the jersey. A similar myopic error had Ty Lawson falling far out of the lottery when some couldn’t get past the superficial similarities with Ray Felton and concluded that they must be the same player.
I think Wright just had the bigger IQ for offense.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I think Wright had a more developed offensive repertoire – real post moves, a nice hook, and a bit of a jumpshot, but I’m still not sure the IQ is necessarily though (but to be fair to Wright, he hasn’t really been on the court for us to see) in terms of moving without the ball, spacing, etc.
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I maintain that George should have been the pick.
The 6th pick is historically awful in comparison to the 5th and 7th picks (some strange vortex of talent that is rarely avoided) so I say take a shot. Udoh represents, for me, the worst kind of pick. He’s old, underdeveloped, and lacks a true position. There’s very, very little potential that he’ll ever be better than he is right now (aside from the improvement that comes with understanding the NBA game). And I like Udoh. A lot. I watched him all season thinking he’d be a steal for an established team in the late teens or early twenties (same thing with Dominique Jones), but at six, he’s a failure of a selection.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
People said D.Lee was old underdeveloped and lacked a true position. They said Noah would be just another tall body.
What were the stats?
I know you can get per 36 and per 40 real easily. You would really only need to look at their senior years, maybe junior year if relevant.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Noah’s stats for his Junior year
PTS REB AST TO A/T STL BLK PF FG% FT
12.0 8.4 2.3 2.5 .90 1.1 1.8 2.3 .605 .663
Udoh’s stats for his Junior year
PTS REB AST TO A/T STL BLK PF FG% FT
13.9 9.8 2. 7 2. 4 1. 1 1 . 8 3. 7 2. 4 . 490 .685
You really need to throw up the PER numbers and the rebounding and assist percentage numbers
and I would recomment either (a) include the free throws per game or (b) just delete the FG% all together and throw in TS%. Either way.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Nevermind
Per 40 last year of college
Noah
18.5 PPG (off of 11.1 FGA); 13 rebounds; 3.5 assists; 1.8 steals; 3.9 blocks; 60.5% FG; 73.3% FT (off of 8.3 FTA)
Udoh
15.8 PPG (off of 12.3 FGA); 11.1 rebounds; 3.1 assists; 0.9 steals; 4.2 blocks; 49% FG; 26.9% 3Pt (off of 0.2 3PtA); 68.5% FT (off of 5.1 FTA)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't have the rebounding percentages, someone else will have to jump on that
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 23, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, that's not even close
Noah by a mile.
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 23, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
David Lee was one of the best rebounders in college basketball, and had over a .600 TS% for his career.
Noah was one of the best rebounders in college basketball, and had over a .640 TS% for his career.
I’m less concerned with what people said about a player and more concerned with what they did. If Udoh had been one of the best rebounders in college basketball and posted over a .600 TS% for his career, I’d be less irritated that they drafted him sixth.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 23, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, more or less, it’s Udoh’s lack of production that bothers me. If he does all these things people say of him….why didn’t he do them well against college competition? If he can’t even do things like rebound or score well against college competition, how is he ever going to do it at a passable level in the pros?
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
A guy averaging 14 points and 10 rebounds aswell as 4 blocks to me is not lack of production. Especially when u have tweety carter as your point guard.
A guy averaging 14 points and 10 rebounds aswell as 4 blocks to me is not lack of production.
It is when the guys he’s being compared to were 25% more productive and considerably more efficient at a younger age.
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 23, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
And once you control for minutes. Racking up stats just because you’re on the floor longer doesn’t make you better….
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Im sorry I just cant see any of those guys being a better fit for this team than Udoh. Ed Davis is Brandan Wright minus the injuries. Paul George could be the next rudy gay or he could be the next Devean George. Id still rather start the season with D.Wright and hope to land Caron next summer.
Davis has a lot of bulk on Wright, but isn’t as long/athletic. Also a higher basketball IQ in that he knows where to be on the court much better than Brandan’s shown thus far. I think he’ll be a worse offensive player, but better on the glass and a better defender. They’re really not all that similar other than “lefty PF out of UNC with some touch”…
by Missing Barry on Aug 23, 2010 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Ed Davis is Brandan Wright minus the injuries.
Udoh is Anthony Randolph minus the upside.
Sick of fighting with my computer
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 23, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
And rebounding.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 23, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
The guy’s a bust already…
Come on, he can’t be a bust before even playing a game! Come back in a year with that line if it applies.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 23, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Hind sight is 20/ 20
Looking back on it. I’d bet that Riley had the David Lee trade teed up before he selected Udoh, just think about it.
If he new the trade was going to involve both Randolph & Turiaf prior to the draft he’d also know we’d lose our best defensive big men. Lee is also known as a pretty poor defender (despite the excuses of guarding centers). I can just imagine Riley targeting Udoh to replace those guys. He was the best defensive big man available at our selection plus, he can pass and handle the rock in addition to blocking shots. He may not be the rebounder that Randolph was but Lee and Beidrins are fantastic rebounders. Udoh is not a terrible rebounder and may be better in the pros playing man to man defense in an up-tempo pace system vs. the low scoring defensive zone scheme at Baylor.
I’m not saying that I agree with any of this logic but it’s probably what happened. And, please spare me the “you can’t talk to FA’s before the FA period”. If you believe that then….you probably think player’s agents don’t work around that rule.
Personally I was not in favor of the Udoh selection. I don’t like drafting for “need”. But, I watched Udoh a lot in college and he’s a very good player. He’s a cerebral player. Underrated passer and I think he’s was a safe/ value pick. Turiaf was losing both his knees and I think Udoh will probably be better than Turiaf. He should bulk up. If he gets to 250-260, at 6’10" with 7.5’ wings he’s big enough to be a solid back up center.
There were a lot of guys I like better in this draft but it was a consensus 5 player draft and a crap shoot after that. I would have played my luck (we need it) but I’m okay with Udoh. He’s not a project player and we’ll have him at 27 on a rookie pay scale.
Agreed that Riley had the Lee trade lined up before using the 6th pick
Considering the lack of big men & Lee’s defensive reputation, Udoh was one of the best choices on the board. However, now we get into the argument every franchise in sports deals with.
Drafting need vs. Drafting best player available
We’ll just have to wait it out & see how Udoh develops.
The funny think to me is that Riley probably saw Udoh as a “safe” pick and the others with possibly more potential both as starters and busts. I can just see him saying, “we are the Warriors, we have terrible luck with our draft picks. We need to play it safe” … and then the dumb look on his face when he finds out his “safe” pick needs serious wrist surgery and will be out for at least half the season.
For some reason, that thought makes me laugh.
how would he have had the Lee trade lined up?
You guys are seeing order in chaos. I don’t understand how he could have struck that deal given it was before free agency when they drafted Udoh and I seem to recall that the Knicks were holding up the Lee trade waiting for some other free agency dominos to fall.
Nothing against Riley on this but let’s not pretend he acted like some comic book evil mastermind here.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Aug 25, 2010 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Looking back on it. I’d bet that Riley had the David Lee trade teed up before he selected Udoh, just think about it.
Interesting and plausible if you assume that Riley had a master plan headed into the draft. Odd thing is when faced with the same facts I was lead to a different hypothesis. Which is to say that Riley draft Udoh as safe pick because he didn’t want another young project ala Randolph on the roster. Both seem like reasonable conclusion.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 7 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
The thing is we needed a Big that could be a defensive presence more than we needed a Paul George or a Xavier Henry or a Greg Monroe. Now we can have the Cole vs. Ekpe argument but I dont like Cole Alridge.
Aldridge? don’t get me started. i can’t stand him. But with that put aside, Ekpe is bigger and WAY more talented.
Actually, Aldrich is bigger, longer, rebounded better, blocked more shots, and was a more effective offensive player, playing in the same conference as Ekpe….
I never liked the idea of drafting Aldrich, but I would have preferred it over Udoh. If we were looking for defense, Aldrich was that guy.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions
I also like Ed Davis for defensive purposes. I think he would have probably been the “weakest” of the 3 defensively, but still solid, and he has a nice overall game.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions
i was a big aldrich proponent before the draft
superb shotblocker, strong rebounder. But if he’s better than udoh in these categories, I think the difference is slight, enough so to be overshadowed by something as arbitrary as “feel” or some other inexplicable “like” for a player. It sounds dumb but it’s why they get paid the big bucks.
Personally, i love it when a team is overtly confident in its draft picks, even if popular opinion is against them. It really is a crap shoot — there might be some moderate correlation to draft position and success, but the instantaneous probabilities are extremely volatile — and if you have a chance to F up either way, I say take the chance and go with your gut (after a solid process of elimination).
Goal: 8 seed!
In shotblocking, yes, the difference is slight. Not so much in rebounding. Cole had more RPG than Udoh did, despite Cole only playing 26.75 MPG compared to Udoh’s 35.1. From a rebounding% standpoint, we’re talking about a slight advantage to Cole on the offensive glass, but a huge advantage defensively (25.3% to 17.7%).
I say take the chance and go with your gut
Well, if by “gut” you mean “scouting reports”, I don’t have a problem with that. If they really are using their gut, I’d be…..pretty horrified.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, I’m not even so sure the shotblocking different was slight. 3.5 BPG for Cole, 3.7 for Udoh, but again, huge MPG difference.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
In fairness to Udoh: he swatted his 3.7 shots per game against only 2.4 PFs, while Aldrich managed 3.5 / 2.6. If anything, that’s slight advantage our guy. Ekpe really is a special shotblocker, I think — it’s just too bad that seems to be his only special quality…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 25, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I did see an article not that long ago more or less making the case that Ben Wallace’s biggest contribution, at the tail end of his span of defensive dominance, was to not foul the other team. Basically, by 2005-2006 his rebounding and blocks weren’t really where they were at his peak, but they were still good, and more importantly, came while never fouling. That he could protect the rim well without ever sending the other team to the line seemed to be a pretty valuable skill and still made him an excellent defender even though he wasn’t quite what he used to be.
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I do wonder how much playing zone impacts shot blocking and foul numbers. I have no idea….
These are times I wish basketball made a much better effort to collect better data. I guess Synergy is doing that. The box score/play by play just doesn’t give you nearly enough information…
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
it’s just too bad that seems to be his only special quality…
he’s also got BrandonWright bones?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 25, 2010 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Which, trolling aside, wouldn’t make him special, would it?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 25, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Which, trolling aside, wouldn’t make him special, would it?
probably the only bones ever broken by a jersey? and WTF Binky did to Udon? Din’t he say " I tossed him a ball and his wrist went ouch" ? Musta been some savage toss, think that was Stef’s way of saying “no, we just can’t do it” ?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 25, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Who broke a bone on a jersey?
Wright’s rotater socket mugged by Gasol’s jersey. Yeah I know not technically a bone but the practical results the same as a broken arm for the team.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 25, 2010 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, for one thing, you silly ol’ troll, Udoh didn’t break a bone…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 25, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Er … yes?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 25, 2010 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Udoh didn’t break a bone…
W\ell what did he break? You can call it whatever you want. Bottom line he’s on the shelf..
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 25, 2010 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
What irked me about the pick was that Riley pretty clearly focused on the two areas that are invariably overvalued relative to NBA production (performance in the NCAA tourney and in workouts) while ignoring the one area that’s invariably undervalued (overall college numbers).
That said, the tourney represented about 75% of the college hoops I watched all year, and in it Udoh struck me as a both-ends stud, probably more so than any other player. So I guess I choose to remain cluelessly optimistic. I mean, it’s not like I have a choice… :,-(
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 25, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Don’t forget the third area – old dudes.
I haven’t really watched much of Udoh, even in the tournament, I’m curious why everyone that watched seems to think he did so well in the tournament despite his pretty unimpressive statlines?
I choose to focus my optimism on other parts of the team. Specifically, on Curry’s 3pt% not regressing one bit. ;)
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Adjusting for difficulty, I guess.
He played well against tough competition, in pretty ugly games.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 25, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
he dunked on duke
and it was like whoa
Goal: 8 seed!
He had a pretty impressive game overall v. Duke: 18 pts (on 14 fga), 10 reb, 6 ast, 5 blk, 1 stl, 1 tov.
And 20 pts (16 fga), 13 reb, 5 ast, 2 stl, 2 blk in the opening round v. Sam Houston.
His stat-lines were much less impressive v. Old Dominion and v. St. Mary’s, but in his showdown v. Samhan the consensus was that he was clearly the quicker, more athletic, more NBA-quality big.
Overall, an impressive tournament showing, imo. I dunno, from what I’ve seen, he’s just an impressive guy to watch: a total beast on defense, with a very nice array of smooth, strong, quick post moves on offense. I get the feeling he’ll end up a whole lot like Turiaf: we’ll all be impressed at his aggressiveness and fire — and then the stat guys among us will check out his B-R page, scratch our heads and say, “why the heck can’t this dude manage better than 8.3 boards per 36?”
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 26, 2010 7:13 AM PDT up reply actions
My biggest question is “why the heck can’t the dude score many points or score efficiently when he has all these offensive moves and skills people keep talking about”….
I was still unimpressed by his footwork in the workout video posted of him. A lot of wasted steps.
by Missing Barry on Aug 26, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions
maybe cuz he just learned them
it’s possible he’s a late bloomer and he just grew more accustomed to these moves as the season went on but then again i’m a bit inebriated so take everything i say with a grain of drunk!
Goal: 8 seed!
My biggest question is "why the heck can’t the dude score many points or score efficiently when he has all these offensive moves and skills people keep talking about"….
The Al Jefferson syndrome, I guess. What you consider “wasted steps” other people probably see as a “refined post game.” Somehow the sight of a 6-11 man shakin’ and bakin’ and hitting a turnaround J will always make fans sit up and go “wooh.” I mean, look at Hakeem: beastly rebounder on both ends, fantastic passer, one of the best defenders of all time … yet somehow the facet of his game fans most remember was the dream shake jumper — which when you look at his rather unspectacular career .553 TS, you have to consider a bit of a double-edged sword.
Conversely, guys like Dwight Howard, Shaq, and Biedrins who stick to their strengths, score mostly on ugly putbacks, bunnies and babyhooks within 6 ft — and score much more efficiently as a result — draw crap from fans for their poor aesthetics and lack of “skills.”
Looking on the bright side: maybe Udoh can learn a thing or two about efficiency from Biedrins and Lee?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 26, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Interesting
I mean, look at Hakeem: beastly rebounder on both ends, fantastic passer, one of the best defenders of all time … yet somehow the facet of his game fans most remember was the dream shake jumper — which when you look at his rather unspectacular career .553 TS, you have to consider a bit of a double-edged sword.
I think that’s a great observation about the mindset of NBA fans. However, in defense of the Dream, and borrowing from Missing Barry, you have to look at the game theory side of things too. Hakeem’s ability to score from the post with average efficiency (haven’t checked, but I think this might have been above average for his era) at a high rate set up their whole offense. Rudy T designed everything around his ability to draw attention down low and find open shooters. They were one of the first teams to truly embrace the three pointer as a big part of their offense, taking more than anyone else in the league despite playing at a significantly slower pace than the other top 5 teams in 3pt attempts.
You probably know all this already, but the love for all things Dream compelled me to respond. ;-)
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
by olympicmike on Aug 26, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I think there’s more than a tiny bit of evidence that Hakeem’s offense was not as important as his defense and rebounding. Many may not recall that he was highly critical of teammates early in his career and said that they didn’t do anything to help him.
When he went down in the early 90s with a broken eye socket, he was replaced in lineup by Larry Smith. The Rockets actually played better after Hakeem went down. Smith couldn’t score 20 points in an empty gym, but he could rebound at an elite level and put a hurt on people on defense. Replacing Hakeem’s offense was largely a group effort, and one that wasn’t tough to do. Others scored a bit more at about the same efficiency without Hakeem ‘setting anyone up’. When he came back and worked into a diversified offense, things improved even more.
Ekpe would be 6’11" if he played in Alrich’s shoes and they weigh nearly the same and have the same wing span. There may be a significant difference in Reb/min but Ekpe can do way more things on the floor than Alrich. i guess it’s what you value and a wait and see thing but, i think Ekpe was consensus better player on draft night. And, i don’t think Alrich will be a good pro at all. he’ll be okay but no better than Ekpe imo. And sometime my opinion is just dead on right. like it was for Thubust. skinny and slow in not a good combo. i would not have drafted him in the first round and i said that way back then.
Well, first, I would argue Thabeet is hardly a bust. He’s shown some nice qualities when he’s played, problem is Memphis doesn’t really need him, and he wasn’t a #2 overall guy. He’s still a lottery pick kind of talent, though. I also think lots of people saw him as a big overdraft.
As for Aldrich/Udoh, their measurements are thus:
Aldrich is 6’9 w/o shoes, Udoh 6’8.75.
Aldrich 236, Udoh 237
Aldrich 7’4.75 wingspan, Udoh 7’4.5 wingspan
And here’s the big difference:
Aldrich 9’3.5 standing reach, Udoh 8’10.5 standing reach. That’s 5 inches of standing reach in Aldrich’s favor….
I don’t think Aldrich will be all that good, but he’ll rebound, play good defense, and score efficiently in small volumes on offense. Poor man’s Biedrins. I expect Udoh to be worse than that. I also don’t think there’s EVER a consensus on draft night in the NBA. Teams vary wildly on who they like. I keep seeing people talk about all these things Ekpe can do, but what can he really do other than pass and block shots? Those are the only things he did well in college….so….???
by Missing Barry on Aug 25, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Bad decision making on the Grizzlies part.
But i would argue that the Thunder should have taken him over Harden.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 25, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Aldrich's ceiling is Joel Przybilla, probably.
Minus the injuries, that’s a guy you’d love to have.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 25, 2010 9:24 PM PDT up reply actions
No doubt, but it depends on the team structure.
You would have to have a good low post scoring option besides him.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 25, 2010 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Przybilla is a good overall defender, right? I think that’s probably a pretty accurate comparison of what you’d expect ouf of Aldrich, and it’s really why I wasn’t excited about the prospect of drafting him. I’d still take that over Udoh, though.
by Missing Barry on Aug 26, 2010 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah.
Good overall defender, decent enough rebounder, limited offensively.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 26, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions
but Ekpe can do way more things on the floor than Alrich.
He can? It’s too bad he didn’t do them, consistently, in college, then.
i think Ekpe was consensus better player on draft night.
I think you think wrong.
I can see a framework for Lee laid out, but I think we should all know enough to realize it’s not a guarantee that it will work or anything. Just look at our “trade agreement” with Phoenix last year – Curry fell to us, and we backed out.
by Missing Barry on Aug 24, 2010 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
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