Basic Melo Thread
by KashRocks on Aug 28, 2010 4:20 PM PDT
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So all the comments don't have to be scattered, I'm going to make a thread for Melo to the Dubs and link all the articles here. Movement to come tomorrow!
Argument: I'm shocked that there hasn't been a huge movement from Warriors fans to acquire Carmelo Anthony. He is a bonafide scorer and exactly what the Warriors need moving forward. A centerpiece like him alongside David Lee and Steph Curry would dramatically change the state of the franchise by adding one of the best players in the NBA, who would suddenly be placed into a situation with a stable new ownership, and a team without any nutcases (I'm looking at you Kenyon Martin). Even if we had to add J.R Smith, that team looks pretty dang good to me, and stable enough to slow or even halt his vendetta toward obscure practice mates. RISE! When the media says that fans are pushing for something or fighting against a proposed move, the references for those statements often derive from websites like GSOM. Ask and you may.... have your request acknowledged. But that's a start! - Mac Muir
Counter Argument:
Please don't trade for Anthony
I don't see any reason in trading for Melo. He would most likely be a one year rental because I think the chances of possibly resigning with us would be very low. Plus, we would have to give up many pieces in order to get him, further thinning out our depth.
-stephen30curry
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/08/26/report-carmelo-anthony-wants-out-of-denver/
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2010/08/carmelo-anthony-to-the-wizards.html
http://www.nba.com/2010/news/features/fran_blinebury/08/27/on-the-move/index.html?ls=iref:nbahpt1
http://thebiglead.com/index.php/2010/08/27/fire-up-the-carmelo-anthony-trade-machine/
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Nuggets-open-phone-lines-on-Anthony;_ylt=As1Ad1rXZM9p51O7XF15qO68vLYF?urn=nba-265605
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AjOb_NIxP81Xf80_hpOR8XW8vLYF?slug=aw-anthonynuggets082610
Discuss!
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Bring Melo
to the Bay! But don’t handicap us at C.
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Owner: Joe Lacob, Peter Guber
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Over 1,000 wins online with GSW in 2K10
..............SC30..............
by GSW9 on Aug 28, 2010 4:24 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
And I have confidence in Lacob that he’ll do it.
He understands winning basketball!
Living for a magical 8th seed run
Yeah, so he won't go after Melo for the reasons you stated.
He understands winning basketball better than most of us.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 28, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
Hopefully we can get this done without giving up too much. Maybe trade Monta, Vlad, and Udoh or Wright. If we could get Melo for that I’d be so happy. Melo would bring so much to Golden State.
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Owner: Joe Lacob, Peter Guber
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Over 1,000 wins online with GSW in 2K10
..............SC30..............
If Beans still stands by what he said earlier
And they still want him lets give him his wish. But if we do a trade he needs to sign first
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
for 22 per for 3years?
yuck.That’s 2x monta’s salary… is he 2x the player monta is?
Goal: 8 seed!
that's not the right question (because he arguably is)
the question is whether he is 5 or 6 times the value that D. Wright gives us, who Melo would be replacing. The answer to that question is “hell no”.
eh
i’m not convinced carmelo is 2x Ellis. Nor am I convinced Wright is even good.
Goal: 8 seed!
I'm not convinced that it matters whether you're convinced
but let’s look at wins produced. That might tell us something useful.
2009-2010 WP (WP48)
Ellis 1.87 (0.034)
Melo 5.93 (0.376)
D. Wright 6.17 (0.198)
Any questions?
lol i was just about to smack you across the face with this
as in, why are you using wins per million
secondly, how well does WP48 do in forecasting change in a player’s rating? As I’m sure you already know, Ellis’s 2007 WP48 rating was .179. Coincidentally, that was his last season before his injury. Do we know for sure that ellis next year will be the .034 player again, or will he be the .179 player, or somewhere inbetween?
And for just a quick second, let’s not compare wp48 and look at wins per million. Carmelo, .376; Ellis, .17. Then raise Carmelo’s salary to 22.5 million per year, which gets you .264 wins per million if he maintains his current WP48 rate. Both are terribly inefficient use of resources, but if you’re going to be inefficient it’s better to use less money (Monta’s 11) than more (carmelo at 2x that)
And I’m still not convinced Wright is good, and you’re not surprising me with your wp48 numbers
Goal: 8 seed!
hey, I don't want Ellis or Melo
If I had my way, Reggie would be starting at SG. I’m sure Ellis will be the starter, but for the money he’s getting, he should have a WP48 above 0.100.
Coincidentally, that was his last season before his injury
It was also his last season playing on a team with an elite PG.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 28, 2010 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
So we shouldn't get Melo because he's not 5 times better than D. Wright?
by Precise Films Productions on Aug 28, 2010 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions
We shouldn't get Carmelo because absorbing his contract would not be a beneficial allocation of resources.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 28, 2010 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions
It would not be a beneficial allocation of resources compared to what?
All the money we have tied up in Bell, Vlad Rad, the 2 Wrights, and Ellis? I would rather put all that money into Melo personally.
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 1:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Bell, Vlad Rad, B Wright
Expiring
D Wright
Very cheap
Ellis
Bad contract, but it’s not crippling.
We don’t know what the future of the CBA holds. Compared to the salary cap this year, Melo’s next contract will cost you over 30% of your cap. That’s one player who isn’t elite. At least you’re only paying Monta to be a very good player.
I would rather put all that money into Melo personally.
That’s 5 roster slots that you’re giving to one player. Remember though- only Monta has a bad longterm of any of them, and you’re still paying Melo twice as much as the value of Monta’s contract.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
But we're still paying all of them this year,
And next year we’ll probably spend all the money that went to them on the Corey M’s of next years free agency class. I would prefer Melo.
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, they are still on the books this season
but they aren’t next season or the year after or the year after, etc. You’re probably paying Melo 6 years, $120 M. Capspace isn’t just a “next year” sort of thing- it’s also the length of the contract. Maggette and Stephen Jackson really aren’t making terrible amounts of money. Yes, they are overpaid, but not by a huge amount. A big problem is the length. You know, you’re paying Corey Maggette $10 M (or whatever) when he’s 35. Of course, Melo is young so he won’t decline as much as Maggette will by the end of his contract, but you are also paying him twice as much. What also really makes it bad is the upcoming CBA- if they institute a hardcap, you can really only afford to pay maybe 4 or 5 players that kind of money.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I realize that those players will only be paid next year...
And I also realize that Melo wants an extension, although its reportedly going to be a 3 year deal not 6.
All I’m saying is that if I had to predict the future I forsee us using all that cap room flexibility that everyone values so much on a couple decent veteran players. We aren’t going to get a star via free agency, so why not get one by trade, even if we do have to overpay a little bit.
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions
overpay a little bit.
I think Melo is worth about 60% of what he’s going to be paid. A little bit is an understatement
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I think hes worth at least 75-80% of what he is getting paid
by freerandolph on Aug 30, 2010 12:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
My bid is around the 15m per year max for 3 years.
About 70% of what he thinks he is worth 60-65% would be about right on a 6 year deal. Especially considering that he would go into “disgruntled mode” at about year 4.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
That's still way overpaying.
The Max salary for a player of Carmelo’s experience is $17.4m. That’s what he’s asking for.
70% of that is $12.2M – a little more than Monta makes.
And Melo is significantly better than Monta
by freerandolph on Aug 30, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Last year? No question.
However, it also doesn’t appear that Melo has ever been as good as Monta was in 07-08.
Is that max the average salary over the duration of the contract, or the max starting salary?
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Starting….eeek.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 30, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem with a popular player like Anthony, and perhaps the exact reason the Warriors should stay away from him (or THE reason to go after him), is that he will demand pay not just based on his performance but what he would bring in revenue-wise because he’s “Melo.” So, we can argue what he’s worth based on his performance but there’s clearly more to signing a player like him than just that (unfortunately).
We can appy this same business rationale to players signing for less like Wade, LeBron, and Bosh, who all say they did it to win but we know they know there are other perks for then.
(Typing from mobile phone)
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 30, 2010 7:42 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Honestly, I’ve never really seen a convincing argument in terms of a players marketability being a worthwhile factor to consider for a franchise, and that extends to any sport….
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Honestly, I’ve never really seen a convincing argument in terms of a players marketability being a worthwhile factor to consider for a franchise, and that extends to any sport….
That makes two of us and I apologize for making it seem like I know something others don’t. As Ronaldinho points out below (per jae), despite a star not bringing in extra revenue, it still wouldn’t stop a player like Anthony to say, “I’m worth it because I’m Carmelo Anthony…”
And owners/GM’s may be suckered into that, which I guess was my point.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 31, 2010 9:26 AM PDT up reply actions
There is a substantial evidence, which Jae has cited,
showing that “stars” don’t give you more than a short-term bump in your revenue. Winning is the way to increase you revenue in the long term.
(Stars may help your road revenue. Unfortunately, that goes to the other team).
Perhaps I misunderstood…I thought it 65 mill for 3 years that he wanted..was it for closer to 4 years?
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions
That was the extension he offered
He’s probably going to get max offers in free agency.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
And I also realize that Melo wants an extension, although its reportedly going to be a 3 year deal not 6.
Isn’t the contract the Nuggets are offering 3 years? The one he’s likely to turn down (and in the case of him being traded, means he has turned down)…..which probably means he is going for something bigger than just 3 years….
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions
A lot depends on the new CBA.
The owners are looking for a shorter maximum length on contracts. Rumor has it that their current proposals include capping existing contracts, as well, althoughI don’t know if this is true.
If Beans still stands by what he said earlier
And what did Beans say earlier?
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
i believe he is referring to the article title “Biedrins vents ….”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/13/SPKH1ETBAA.DTL
Yeah, I suspected as much. Out of context quotes making it sound like he was saying things he wasn’t.
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Melo will look really good in our new uniform...
I agree with the Monta+Vlad+B. Wright+2012 1st round pick deal.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 28, 2010 4:36 PM PDT reply actions
So kill our front line and draft pick?
I we did it it’d be a huge risk
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
How is getting rid of Wright killing our front line?
With Stephen Curry,Carmelo Anthony,Dorell Wright,David Lee,Biedrins as your starting 5,I’d say that’s a pretty damn good team.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 28, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Frontline=big men rotation
If we did that trade, we would have Lee, Andris and Udoh. If Udoh was already really good, that would be okay.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 28, 2010 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions
The offseason isn't even over yet...
We can still sign Amundson or any other decent backup C/PF to fill in that hole that Wright will leave and in return, we get arguably one of top 5 player of the league.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 29, 2010 12:16 AM PDT up reply actions
He is not arguably a top 5 player in this league. He is not even close.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:29 AM PDT up reply actions
He is not even close?
Yeah,maybe not top 5,but you can’t deny having Carmelo will help us significantly.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 29, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
That’s different than saying he is a top 5 player or close to it.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions
It depends on what you mean by "close"
Melo is a top 15 player. Probably about #15, still very good.
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 1:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Eh, i'd put him in the 25-30 range.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions
OK, we already did this on a different thread...
But name those players. Someone else said the same thing and then proceeded to name 30 players, at least half of whom many thought were worse than Melo… Thats actually why I say around 15th best in the league.
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Just because people *think* Melo is better than someone doesn't mean that he is, in fact, better.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 29, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Rene Des Cartes disagrees.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
lol
And yes SP that is true, but what I think is what I think because I believe it to be true. You can disagree if you want, but it seems to me that Melo is somewhere around the 15th best player in the league.
If you want feel free to list all the players you think are better than Melo and we can discuss the list. Maybe you’ll change my mind.
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 6:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to sound like an ignoramous, but why is Melo great, much less top 5?
What does he bring to the table beyond volume scoring that’s significantly above average besides a cool name and his superstar rep?
To reiterate my man Hardcore’s point: there are 4+ posts on this topic and I count exactly 0 arguments that even attempt to prove that Melo has earned his superstar reputation.
Just based on watching him play (ignoring stats) I don’t see how he’s even in the same conversation as Wade, or Iggy. Add his stats into the equation and I’m completely flabbergasted.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 1:03 AM PDT up reply actions
They worship at the alter of PPG?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 1:28 AM PDT up reply actions
If people worshiped PPG like you think they do
Guys like Monta, Crawford and Jackson and others would be all stars. It’s easy to see why people like PPG, mainly cause whoever scores more wins
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
...seriously?
How many times have you seen arguments on this site proving that wrong?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Guys like Monta, Crawford and Jackson and others
are all overpaid
Remember:
A Warriors fan with low expectations is a happy Warriors fan
by Duby Dub Dubs on Aug 30, 2010 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Is Jackson really overrated? See this is why I don't think stats tell you everything.
Sure his stats aren’t extremely impressive but look at the impact he had on the Dubs (The years he was suspended at the begining of the season) and then his impact on the Bobcats and his significant impact on the We Believe team. I don’t see how you can argue against Jackson effectiveness in the win column.
by freerandolph on Aug 30, 2010 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
He didn't say overrated
he said overpaid.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions
No the stats are pretty much true about Jackson. Is not a good shooter or consistent scorer, draws fouls, is a decent passer, and is a poor rebounder. It doesn’t tell us he is a very good defender at times, but i’m sure his +/-’s numbers have shown that along with Synergy.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 30, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Those stats don't seem to tell a story that would suggest that Jackson should have had a significant impact in multiple situations
by freerandolph on Aug 30, 2010 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
The question is, has he really?
I agree that his six-game suspension was significant, but I think it’s a little too easy to just say that his absence was the problem.
After all, we have other data, such as last year, when we had him for nine games.
On in 2008-09, we had him for 59 games. The year before, he missed nine. And while we were a mess those first six games that season, it seemed like we were a mess for a lot of different reasons, not just his absence.
He’s been on a lot of good teams, but look how willing most of those teams have been to let him go.
Well, that 7 game absence seemed to point to Jackson's importance in my eyes
Also, the affect he had on the We Believe team also did. And also him helping the Bobcats make the playoffs for the first time and the improvement they had as soon as he got there.
When we had him for 9 games last year he wasn’t happy and he was disruptive. As long as he is happy to be where he is, he seems to be a significant help in most of the places that he has been.
by freerandolph on Aug 31, 2010 9:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Bobcats got Jax for nothing
anytime you can add a relatively good player, without sacrificing any components of your main team, you will improve
I hate Jackson, he is a big whiner!
I most certainly do not miss watching him bicker with the ref about a call while the play goes down to the other end of the court without him
by Duby Dub Dubs on Aug 31, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Heck.
Even if you add a below-average player, so long as he’s better than the guy who’s mintues he’s taking, you will improve.
Jackson strikes me as about an average player – below average offensively, above average defensively.
The previous year, the 1000min+ players Charlotte had were Felton, Wallace, Agustin, Okafor, Diaw, and Bell, and Bell really only played half a season. This last year, they swapped Okafor for Chandler, lost Diaw and added a full season of Jackson instead of a partial one of Bell.
Another big improvement was getting more out of Wallace. He had his career best year in terms of TS%, his career best rebounds/36, and, oh yeah, played 500 minutes more than he did the previous year. When you best player gets 20% better (both by playing more minutes and doing more in the minutes he plays) you’re going to improve.
It seems to me like you guys are just looking at the stats and not looking at team impact...
If Jackson really is just an average player, then adding him shouldn’t do anything but make the Bobcats slightly better. The addition of an average player, even if replacing a bad player, can only move a team closer to average. Charlotte was a below average team before Jackson and an above average team after his addition.
Also your argument about Wallace, while it has some truth to it, is not necessarily an explaination of anything, it is simply an observation. Yes Wallace had a career year. Yes the Bobcats had a good season. Yes these two things are probably related. But you have to take context into account. Why did Wallace have a career year? Was it helped because he had legitimate defensive help from Jackson? Did the fact that Jackson is a vocal and emotional leader help? Did Jacksons passion help? Although his offensive game is pretty average, could that have possibly helped in any way anyway? I’m not sure if it is possible to know the answers to these questions, all we can do is debate, but from what I saw of Jackson when he was motivated on the Dubs, I think he was a big boost to the Bobcats.
Why did Wallace have a career year? Was it helped because he had legitimate defensive help from Jackson?
It had a career year because he didn’t play with a double digit rebounder. There were a lot of available rebounds and he stepped up. IIRC, he was off to an incredible start, even before the Jackson trade.
Carmelo Shmarmelo
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 1, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I just can't believe that you guys would disregard the affect the Jackson has had on multiple situations...
by freerandolph on Sep 1, 2010 10:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course there are a million other reasons besides him being good for why Jackson keeps having teamates with career years and being on teams during their best years...
by freerandolph on Sep 1, 2010 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe it’s just a coincidence?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 1, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
The addition of an average player, even if replacing a bad player, can only move a team closer to average.
This is not true. Imagine that all players were rated from 1-10, average being five.
You have 4 9-rated players and one 2-rated player – your team average is 7.6, pretty darn good.
You replace that 2-rated player with a 5-rated player. Your team average is now 8.2. You’ve gotten better, further from average, by adding an average player.
This is basic math.
Why did Wallace have a career year? Was it helped because he had legitimate defensive help from Jackson? Did the fact that Jackson is a vocal and emotional leader help? Did Jacksons passion help? Although his offensive game is pretty average, could that have possibly helped in any way anyway?
These are all legitimate questions. It’s quite possible, for example, that Jackson consistently defended the best opponent, and that made life easier on Wallace (since there is considerable overlap in who they’re both capable of defending).
And honestly I didn’t watch the Bobcats enough to really know. A few games here and there are not enough to really understand a team’s dynamic.
But since you agree that it’s not possible to know the answers to those questions, why do you then act like you do, in fact, know the answer to those questions? Your posts consistently claim that Jackson helped the team, despite it not showing up on the stat sheet.
Here, however, you admit that you can’t know.
So which is it?
Personally, I treat claims that a player helped despite a negative stat sheet with a high degree of skepticism. In my opinion, the burden of proof is on the person claiming the presence of intangibles.
This is especially true when the player in question has a high PPG, because we know that our subjective impressions of a player are strongly influenced by PPG even when we know better.
According to Synergy they both guarded isolations about the same amount of times, so I don’t think Jackson or Wallace took the best defender all the time. It appears they switched around quite a bit. So i don’t think Jackson would have helped that much in saving energy, especially when Wallace played with Raja Bell the year before, and he was on a similar (if not better) level of defensive play than Jackson. So, no. Jackson most likely didn’t cause Wallace to have a career year.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 2, 2010 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not claiming that I "Know" ...
I’m arguing my opinion. My opinion is that when I was watching the Dubs, Jackson had a significant positive affect on the team, until he got disgruntled. Then the Bobcats from what I’ve heard fro Cats fans and from their fansite seemed to think that Jackson helped a lot too. Also, it just happened to be a playoff year from them after years of stagnation…
To the first part of your argument, I’m not sure if you can just represent players with numbers and find the average and then say that that is how the NBA works, because it is obviously much much much more complex than that. Also the question was that if you have a below average team like the Bobcats, the addition of an average player wouldn’t change you to an above average team. Even if you simplify it down to numbers that still holds true.
Also the question was that if you have a below average team like the Bobcats, the addition of an average player wouldn’t change you to an above average team. Even if you simplify it down to numbers that still holds true.
Again you fail at basic math.
You have four players rated 5.5, and one player rated .5. Your team charts a 4.6 – below average.
You replace that .5 guy with a 4.5 guy – a below average player. You team now averages 5.3: above average.
In other words: the benefit of replacing a horrible player with a bad player is no different from the benefit of replacing an average player with a good player.
Jackson actually had a average year (WP=0.083)
which is to say, that according to the statistics, he actually played better last season than he did with the Warriors. Also, Raymond Felton played much better last season (WP=0.163) than the one before (0.091). The additional wins that Jackson and Felton gave to the team last year pretty much account for the increase.
Well, I had the pleasure of watching almost every single Bobcat game this season (seriously, loved watching them play defense), and Jackson's biggest asset was his willingness to shoot. A lot.
Wallace wasn’t comfortable being a primary offensive option, and having Jackson around allowed him to not worry about creating his own shot (and led to a lot more assisted baskets than he’d enjoyed previously in his career).
Jackson’s size was also a boon. Being able to slide to the three helped a ton. Wallace is actually a more effective player overall at the PF position, and (by my observations) did better against bigger defenders than smaller ones, oddly enough. By extension, Jackson being able to guard good perimeter scorers meant Wallace was freer to roam for shotblocks/steals and be in position to grab rebounds.
by Spider Jerusalem on Sep 2, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
The addition of an average player, even if replacing a bad player, can only move a team closer to average
Nah, it really can make them better. For instance, say you replaced Derek Fisher with an average starting PG. The Lakers, the best team in the NBA last season, would have been even better.
Charlotte was a below average team before Jackson and an above average team after his addition.
The question is how much of that was because of Jackson, though? In your second paragraph I think you ask some of the right questions along those lines….tough questions to answer, but we can at least look at the evidence we have to try to answer them….
by Missing Barry on Sep 2, 2010 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Denver has made the playoffs every single year since Carmelo was drafted...
so does every other superstar in this league.
Example – Lebron,Kobe,Wade… etc,
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 29, 2010 2:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Chris Paul? Kevin Durant? Pau Gasol? Kevin Garnett?
Monta Ellis told me to include him as well.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions
No. Monta Ellis is not included.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 29, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
But, Monta says he is, and, well, monta da boss, so scoreboard.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Have you missed all of the really good players he's played with?
The Nuggets added a lot of talent the year they drafted him.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Allen Iverson? Chauncey Billups?
Those 2 guys in a 5-6 year span.
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 29, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
jae posted about how they added or
seriously increased the minutes of a number of above average to good players the year he came. Like Nene started getting serious minutes. They also got Andre Miller that year.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Allen Iverson kinda sucked in Denver too
so I’m not sure why you used him as an example.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Those were the 2 best players to play alongside Carmelo.
Am I missing anyone?
by Cpt. Jack in the Box on Aug 29, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Strawman.
Andre Miller, Kenyon Martin, Nene, Camby, Affalo, Jr Smith, Lawson.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Chauncey is the best player to play alongside Melo
but Allen Iverson isn’t even close. Like I said, Nene and Andre Miller. Andre Miller in Denver was way better than Allen Iverson in Denver.
Am I missing anyone?
Everyone. Marcus Camby went from 616 minutes in 03 to 2162 in 04. Andre Miller added 2838 quality minutes at PG that season. Nene’s minutes didn’t increase by as much as I thought, only a few hundred.
The Marcus Camby and Andre Miller minutes can’t be downplayed. Marcus Camby has been super productive over the course of his career and so has Andre Miller. Also important is that their minutes replaced below average players.
jae went into a lot more detail than I did, but this should kind of give you an idea of what happened. Melo came, yes, but they also added other good players.
By Win Shares, Andre Miller and Marcus Camby were both more valuable to the 04 team than Melo. By WS/48, Jon Barry, Nene, Chris Andersen and Earl Boykins were more productive on a per minute basis as well as the 2 mentioned above. Of the players who were there the previous year, they were all a lot more productive in 04 than 03.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Iverson
Iverson
Can make a claim as being the best player Melo has played with. In their short time together, Melo had one of his best overall seasons with Iverson present.
During the 07-08 campaign, Melo had his highest True Shooting Percentage (.568) and had his second best Wins Share at 8.2. Melo averaged 25 points, and 7 rebounds shooting 49%
That season, Iverson had a PER at 20.9, True Shooting Percentage of .567, and his Wins Share was 11.6. He averaged 26 points, 7 assist at 45%
With Billups during the 2009-2010 campaign, Melo True Shooting was .548, and his Wins Share was at 7.9. He averaged 28 points, 6 rebounds shooting 45%
Billups True Shooting was much better at .601 and having a Wins Share at 9.5. Billups averaged 19 points, 5 assist at 41%
Miller never had a TS% over .541 and Wins Share was 8.8 so I wouldn’t consider him as close as the other two.
GSOM- Where Education From Observation Occurs
by The Dedication on Aug 29, 2010 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Hmm… Andre Miller was better than AI. Just saying.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
You're right, you are "Just saying."
Without any apparent reason…
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Well based off defense, scoring efficiency, and passing, I go with Miller.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
the argument has been made before. DBerri makes it constantly. Going by WP48, Andre kills Iverson.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Weak East, and great defensive players around him.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
This
He was in a really great situation for him- a bunch of guys that didn’t want to take any shots so he had free reign with the offense. Maybe he was just as good of a player later in his career, but he wasn’t as useful because he was playing with someone who was probably a better scorer than him.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah his team included some of the best defenders of our generation. George Lynch, Dikembe, Theo Ratliff, Eric Snow. Wow, very nice.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Also- Raja Bell was there
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions
I suppose
I did check to see if he did play, and he did play in the Finals.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not sure how deserving all those guys really are to be mentioned among the best of their generation. Mutombo is the only obvious slam dunk….
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
George Lynch does.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 30, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah...
He was pretty amazing on D and was a great rebounder at his position. It’s hard to say where each of them ranked, but I’d put Mutumbo and Lynch in a special class. Snow was also a very strong defender at guard back then though. It really was an amazing collection of defenders.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Theo Ratliff was a great rim protector too. Maybe not special class but definitely very good.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 30, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
For sure
I loved watching Ratliff play D when he was healthy. He was a very good shot blocker, but much like Turiaf, he gave up good defensive rebounding position (good defensive position in general) to chase shots. Mutombo on the other hand, could block shots, and keep good defensive position and rebound well. He had incredible size and knew how to make the most of it.
Plus I can’t help but mention Mutombo is a genuinely great man. I have a lot of respect for him as a player and as a person. I know that doesn’t really have anything to do with this conversation, but I can’t help it. :-)
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
Definitely, i was very sad when his career ended the way it did.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 30, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I still refuse to put any of them anywhere near Mutombo’s class…
by Missing Barry on Aug 31, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Well
I certainly can’t argue with giving Mutombo an extra level of respect. He was great.
Lynch was a very strong defender, but it’s hard to compare considering the differences in position. One thing I thought was valuable about Lynch was his versatility. He could defend very well on the perimeter, and he could defend skilled PFs too when needed. He also did a great job on the boards for a SF.
Looking back, you had Lynch, Snow, Ratliff, Tyrone Hill, and Kevin Ollie playing significant minutes, who all basically carved out a career from playing tough D. That’s a lot of regular contributors that were basically defensive specialists. I can’t think of another team that was so heavily built around defense first players. You combine those role players with Mutombo holding down the center spot and that’s a very impressive defensive team. Somehow none of that gets remembered though. AI had such charisma and magnetism as a player that he completely distracted from the way that team won games. He was so incredibly entertaining to watch that everyone was (and is) more than happy to give him all the credit for that team’s success.
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
ust based on watching him play (ignoring stats) I don’t see how he’s even in the same conversation as Wade, or Iggy.
those are two different conversations, Melo makes three.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 29, 2010 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
And your comment makes four.
Most people, just based on watching, would put him up there with Wade and a tier or two over Iguodala. Just based on watching those three play, I can’t see how he’s as good as either of those players. I wasn’t comparing Wade and Iggy other than to say they both appear to me to be better basketball players.
I’m sure the same thing has happened to you where everyone is talking about the greatness of a player and you just disagree on a gut level from watching him play. Joe Johnson is another one that comes to mind.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
And Kobe.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Makes signing Almundson a lot more palatable.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Please don't get melo
I want to see our team currently composed play together and win together. I want to see our team build chemistry together and win our own way.
I don’t want Melo because scoring is not an area of need for us. I don’t want Melo because he’s suffering from a huge inferiority complex to James/Wade and he’s teamed up with an “agent” who’s also suffering from an inferiority complex after getting kicked out of James’s squad. I don’t want Melo because he’s going to want max money when he’s not a max player. I don’t want Melo because he’s just as big of a headcase as Monta, if not bigger, and I feel we’re suffering from grass-is-greener syndrome.
Goal: 8 seed!
I’d love to add Melo.
But your point is duly noted. I’d really be hesitant if Melo ends up signing for 20M per plus. It does inhibit our opportunities in making future moves/signings.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
It does inhibit our opportunities in making future moves/signings.
Stop with all that “common sense” talk.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
I could see why you would be hesitant to lose our flexibility
Because of all the great free agent signings we’ve had in the past…
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
there's more than one way to set the franchise back.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I have to admit that I am having this warm fuzzy feeling that we have a smart level headed new owner thus I would tend to trust his decisions.
So despite my worries about throwing 22 million at a star(not a superstar in my opinion) I think Lacob will figure out what is possible and the best move/player with the right timing to add the next major piece. This Melo thing reminds me how much I was worried about throwing too much out for Arenas or Brand….but of course we then threw out big bucks for Maggette,Jackson and Crawford. So far..loved the Lee move…but part of my brain misses the hope of a future star in Randolf…but as happy as he claims to be backing up Amare, I doubt that he would have felt the same here behind Lee. Possibly the bright lights will be good for him….if he doesnt start to transform he will experience reality of the NY fans.
Sorry for the ramble.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
JUST TO CLARIFY...
i know i said that i didn’t want to get melo because i was afraid that we wouldn’t be able to resign him after this year, but after finding out that he would likely be signing a 3 year extension, im fine with trading for him as long as we don’t give away curry/lee and don’t thin out our frontcourt too much
Maybe Nugz would be amenable to a pick swap?
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
reply fail.
meant to respond to danielholl.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Trading a draft pick.
It would seem to make sense to do this trade based on the fact that the Nets own next years draft pick. By trading now for someone likely to help the team make the playoffs, that draft pick loses value, while also enticing other free agents to come to the bay when Bell, Gadz, Radman and Smith all come off the books. That’s about $20 mil to spend on the crappy class of free agents in 2011.
Curry/Lee/Monta= Wins
Bell, Gadz, Radman and Smith all come off the books.
It will be interesting to see if Denver gets desperate enough to take a bag of expirings for Anthony. But if he is not in NY or LA he may be another over paid, disgruntled star(not superstar), kill the team chemistry etc. If he was 12-15 mil. a year and happily productive that would be ok but….now when Dwight Howard decides that he wants to be a Warrior for 20 mil. yeah baby.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
it's not so simple
purportedly, Denver offered him 3/$65m – that’s almost double what Monta will make and Melo declined it – and Denver has been a winning situation for Melo, something we can’t guarantee
Assuming we are ok with giving up Monta and Wright, how much more are we willing to offer to extend Melo?
And what does that get us in increased productivity?
And what does that do to our cap in the future?
Regardless of the many fanposts and fan shots, those questions have yet to be addressed substantially. Creating a “new” centralized Melo Movement fanpost doesn’t change that.
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
by hardcore on Aug 28, 2010 5:32 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Regardless of the many fanposts and fan shots, those questions have yet to be addressed substantially
I beg to differ. Several of us have answered those questions. But let me recap:
Assuming we are ok with giving up Monta and Wright, how much more are we willing to offer to extend Melo?
Melo is already overvalued. An even bigger contract would make him even more overvalued than he already is.
And what does that get us in increased productivity?
Not much. Maybe less, if we look at the effect on the rest of team.
And what does that do to our cap in the future?
A huge contract on an overvalued player would cripple our flexibility.
Melo is already overvalued
I think we need to see how Denver responds to life after Melo. It really depends what their plan is, but if they try to put a band-aid on the situation (i.e. try to win without Melo) and actually do better, then that will tell us Melo was overrated. We also have to see how the team Melo goes to responds. Again, many variables, but this statement that Melo is overvalued is a bit of a unknown until we get to compare more samples.
There’s also the value in Melo for the organization vs. the value in getting a player that will help you win and go deep into the playoffs. This is easy, Melo is a very popular player. He brings a lot of revenue to the league and the team he plays for that makes his salary worth it.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 28, 2010 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
(i.e. try to win without Melo) and actually do better, then that will tell us Melo was overrated.
I don’t think they would necessarily have to do better without him, as long as they don’t much worse. If they’re within a couple games, that’s pretty damning. You’re paying how much for a player that makes your team win 4 more games?
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 28, 2010 11:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think they would necessarily have to do better without him, as long as they don’t much worse. If they’re within a couple games, that’s pretty damning. You’re paying how much for a player that makes your team win 4 more games?
Agreed. It will be interesting to see.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 29, 2010 12:06 AM PDT up reply actions
We also have to assume the team stays largely the same, because if they get rid of Melo for lesser players, and trade away Billups and Nene perhaps, it wouldn’t be fair to compare the two.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:10 AM PDT up reply actions
yeah well then it kinda goes out the window.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
DK
You get a rec for spittin game.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Thanks!
Recs boost my self-esteem.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 29, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Re: Melo is a very popular player. He brings a lot of revenue to the league and the team he plays for that makes his salary worth it.
Best argument so far, and that’s troubling.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 1:06 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stars don't drive ticket sales (at home), wins do.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 29, 2010 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, good point. I forgot.
I haven’t read the study or the book, but I know what you’re talking about.
Do jersey sales go directly to the team or is that subject to revenue sharing?
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Pretty sure merchandising is handled by the league, since they're NBA products.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 29, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Well then, we're back to zero logical arguments explaining why he's a great player.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
His wife is hot.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Best argument so far, and that’s troubling.
I don’t advocate it as being the reason for bringing him, but it’s a reason that owners and management would consider.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 29, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
I think Lacob is very intelligent and will see and understand what some of us are saying about Melo.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
And what if he doesn't?
Apparently were one of the teams in the hunt so he must like him. You don’t go after players you don’t want
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
I really don’t believe we are on of the teams in the hunt. It’s all just rumor right now.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions
We were on Melo's list of preferred destinations
that says nothing about the motives of the team, just the motives of Melo.
Unless there is another article that I missed.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
You didn’t mis-read, but others have taken Yahoo’s original list of “contending” teams and turned it into Melo’s list of “preferred teams.”
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 29, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, I see.
Goofy how journalism works, eh?
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Best argument so far, and that’s troubling
Yup. Shhh dont let our owners see that idea.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
we are in the same camp, my point is the pro-Melo fans have not made the case convincingly using any stat/cap evidence
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
by hardcore on Aug 29, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
it's not so simple
Here we go again with more “common sense” posts :-) This is supposed to summertime fantasy yearnings.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I think the trade would be
Biedrins and Ellis for Melo… I’m a little torn right now. Living in Colorado, I kind of hate Melo’s game, but he is a fantastic player, too. It would be awfully nice to have two all stars for Curry to pass to… but it would take a lot to get him. It’s a coin toss.
He won’t be coming with JR or Nene… they don’t get along.
I'm shocked that there hasn't been a huge movement from Warriors fans to acquire Carmelo Anthony.
Look at the financial aspect then it won’t be so shocking. We can only spend that money once so we need to decide on spending it on an over rated player or on another under rated player? The value can be much different between a CMelo and a DLee.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 28, 2010 6:57 PM PDT reply actions
Two questions..
1. If we trade monta for Carmelo what number do you think he would wear? (beans currently wears 15) .. Just curious what you guys think.
2. In your guys opinion.. What would you rather have
SG. Ellis
SF. Wright
6th man. Williams
Or.
SG. Williams
SF. Carmelo
6th man. Right
Curious to see your guys thoughts because this alone can sway your guys thoughts on us landing melo.
I have alot of faith in lacob in that
anything he does, i will have to support no matter what. I get a sense he wont f*** us up. so if it meant trading beans for melo, im sure he will have a side plan to get someone.
In regards to trading for Melo...
we all have heard Lacob preach about his “Celtic’s/Nba Philosophy” of needing 3 superstars to compete for a title in the NBA. If the Warriors can trade for Melo without giving up Vlad/Gadzuric/Lee/Curry then I believe they have to do it. I am all for giving up Monta or Biedrins or Monta and Biedrins in a Melo deal because it sets the Warriors up very nicely to obtain the next piece to complete the Superstar trio…quadro…quintet?
Imagine a Monta/Beans centered deal for Melo. That leaves the Warriors with a core of Curry/Melo/Lee….and also leaves the 14 mill in expirings (vlad/gadz) to go after another superstar mid season…we all know that the trade deadline will produce one or two unhappy superstars or budding superstars or on the brink of being a superstar player that wants to be traded for cap relief…..Getting rid of Monta/Beans may leave some holes but they will only be temporary because the expiring contracts of gadz/vlad can be used to finish off the final touches.
Getting Melo would not be the final move and would not be the end all of the Warriors being a complete product. It will be the move before the final move. Those of you against giving up Beans because it leaves a hole at center, just think about this for a second. Keeping our expirings and giving up some quality but not star players in Monta/Beans can set this team up to possibly have 4 star players to finally thrust this team into title contention.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Aug 28, 2010 10:01 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
Rec'd
A Curry/Lee/Carmelo/Gasol or Horford lineup would easily contend for the title.
"It's like Will Smith, remember the Fresh Prince? Get the ball don't let nobody else shoot? That's kinda what the offense can be sometimes, and they're just standing around waiting for Monta to make a play"
-MT2
by golden_solitude on Aug 29, 2010 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Good post.
4 superstars: Curry, Lee, Anthony, ???
I’m hoping for Marc Gasol
Oden would be cool.
Perkins would be nice, If healthy and our other 3 stars are more than enough on the offensive side.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
I’m really not sure any of those guys are superstars…..
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Gov, I think what you meant was.
I’m really sure that none of those guys are superstars…
by freerandolph on Aug 29, 2010 1:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Haha, good way to put it.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 1:53 AM PDT up reply actions
hmm
put in this light. I would pull the trigger on a Monta/Beidrens deal.
Then next offseason we are chasing Horford and Gasol jr.
…neither of those guys is going to come at a bargain price
but I like the look of this team
PG: Curry
SG: who cares
SF: Melo
PF: Lee
C: Horford or M Gasol
yeee-aaaahh!
by Duby Dub Dubs on Aug 31, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
The only thing is
that I doubt we’ll get Horford or Gasol and “who cares” is still one-fifth of the team, so… uh… I care…
With that said, I still might agree with you that trading Monta and Beans for Melo would be good for our team.
Everything that I wanted to say
including adding Charlie Bell and JR to the deal would give us even more cap space. For people who want to know if we can contend in the playoffs, just know that behind Durant and an aging Nowitzki — Carmelo is the third best scoring forward in the Western Conference. He also plays at a position where only two teams boast a SF (West) that would give his defense a test, and he can remove Monta’s defensive liabilities where the majority of teams start a high scoring SG. Take Denver out of the equation, and our chances of succeeding in the playoffs get even better.
The "Hot Pot" City
That leaves the Warriors with a core of Curry/Melo/Lee
And no defense whatsoever, and a guy (Melo) who’s only value comes from shooting, when it seems to me we’ll already have 2 guys (Curry/Lee) who should get the ball much more often than Melo….
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
You don't want to give up Vlad or Gadz?
Huh?
Vlad and Gadz are our two most expendable pieces.
You’d rather give up Beans than Gadz?
Are you nuts?
Read the rest of his post
He doesn’t want to give up those two because they are expiring contracts which can either be used as cap filler when we trade for Disgruntled Player X on Team A at the trade deadline, or let them expire so we can sign Player Y in the offseason. Not a clear strategy because there’s no guarantee that either of these will be viable options, but a followable strategy nonetheless.
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 30, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I think you overestimate the value of expiring contracts, too. If you can get anyone that can contribute to your 8-man rotation in a Vlad/Gad trade without hamstringing you financially, you do it yesterday.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Agree 100% ...
But isn’t that exactly what trading Vlad and Gadz for a reasonably-priced Melo (ha!) would be?
He was basically saying that he wants Melo, but doesn’t want to trade those two guys – that he DIDN’T want to use them as trade chips to bring in a better player. Furthermore, trading Beans leaves us with a giant hole in our roster, which doesn’t make us an attractive destination for a superstar.
Because Biedrin’s contract is so reasonable, it seems likely that he’s going to be a tempting piece to offer for a team, say, giving up a payer like Chris Paul. eg, if the Hornets have to trade him (and he’s the most likely disgruntled superstar) we’ll probably have to take Okafor, too. Biedrins makes sense as part of the return package on that.
Vlad or Gadz might round out a deal like that, but they won’t be the centerpiece of it because N.O. would need to be able to say they got something of value back in return.
Hypothetically, if Melo doesn't sign his extension and gets traded to the Warriors
And Melo decides to bolt after next season (also depending what happens with the CBA…a lockout is very plausible), the Warriors have huge cap relief to go after a free agent such as…Yao Ming.
I’m pretty confident that Curry and Lee are the cornerstones and therefore will not be traded no matter what.
I think Lacob would jump at the opportunity to get Melo with any other asset the Warriors have.
There are so many positives to come out of it. Especially if Melo replaces the scoring role of Monta. While Melo is basically twice as expensive as Monta with comparable scoring efficiency, his size makes him a much more versatile player and thus, a much more valuable player. While Melo’s defense might be as big a liability as Monta’s, the mismatches he creates on the offensive side makes it a bit more bearable.
Also, besides all that, whether the stats agre with it or not, Melo is considered a “superstar.” The level of national attention the Warriors would get with Melo on our team would immediately dispel the stigma that no top FA would want to come to Golden State. Even if Melo leaves after a year, the Warriors already accomplished more than they have in 16 years. And let’s face it, David Lee isn’t a bigger name than Carmelo Anthony.
It’s a secondary priority to get this type of recognition, but it might prove worth the trouble if it enables the Warriors to become a little more desirable to the rest of the league.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
So basically
If the Warriors have to give up Biedrins (and Monta) for Melo, they should do it. I think one year with a makeshift C rotation would be tolerable for the mere fact that we get to enjoy watching a lineup that includes Curry, Lee, and Anthony.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 28, 2010 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I think one year with a makeshift C rotation would be tolerable for the mere fact that we get to enjoy watching a lineup that includes Curry, Lee, and Anthony.
And then we go after Yao or Marc Gasol in the offseason (and hope the Grizzlies don’t match)?
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 28, 2010 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Honestly, I’d rather have Gasol. I don’t yet trust Yao’s health and I still think the Warriors will continue to be an uptempo team. Not sure if Yao can handle that.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 29, 2010 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think Yao can handle the slow tempo of the Rockets at more than 50 games a year.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Is a respectable offer at Marc Gasol even possible?
I’m not up on our future projections to manage the cap.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Depending on who offer/get in the trade
a more than respectable offer can be made. The actual chance of getting him is slim.
The "Hot Pot" City
Yeah, I just figured possible, but slim chance of happening.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
The thought of Gadzuric as our starting C scares me.
"It's like Will Smith, remember the Fresh Prince? Get the ball don't let nobody else shoot? That's kinda what the offense can be sometimes, and they're just standing around waiting for Monta to make a play"
-MT2
by golden_solitude on Aug 29, 2010 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions
They'd probably then look to Udoh once back.
He’s undersized, but hey so are a lot of teams in the league nowadays.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
If Melo gets traded, it will be with an extension.
No team is going to give up the value Denver is looking for without an extension in place.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 28, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s probably true.
And honestly, I like the idea of one-year rental of Melo much more than the idea of giving him max extension.
I’m starting to think we’re better off letting the Knicks or some other team give up young talent for Melo, and then swooping in and seeing if we can’t unload Monta on Denver (to replace Melo’s volume scoring) for JR Smith and Chris Andersen.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 29, 2010 12:24 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
That’d be ideal. Not that it is a problem to have but we would have Lee-Wright-Birdman-Biedrins-Udoh- and possibly Amundson on the same team. Would we ship a few out for a backup point or another defensive wing?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions
But if the Nugz were willing to deal with a package similar to
Monta, Beans and Wright plus a pick swap and couple dozen 2nd round picks (c’mon you know Riley would do it), wouldn’t it be worth it?
We’d still have options to make our team better.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Yeah. I'd be happy to give up Monta for a one-year rental.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 29, 2010 1:55 AM PDT up reply actions
The extension is only three years
which would go by really quickly, considering after two — he would be an expiring contract and trade bait if things don’t work out.
The "Hot Pot" City
No, it's an extension
meaning this next year plus three years, so it’s really three plus the expiring year.
unload Monta on Denver (to replace Melo’s volume scoring) for JR Smith and Chris Andersen.
Rec’d, I like the way you think sleepy…except when you R cranky :-)
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Forizzle!
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Aug 30, 2010 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions
besides all that - ?
trading Monta for Melo replaces his scoring at twice the price, not any more efficiently, and doesn’t appreciably improve our defense, etc. sounds like arguments against making this deal
recognition or not, Melo being traded here against his will would not add any luster to our ability to land further FAs, and would be a poisonous climate on the team; Melo without an extension would put another drama-filled cloud over a team already unsure of who its next coach is going to be
adding Melo and his expensive extension would seem to make it less likely we add another high priced FA, and no one has done any cap-analysis that I’ve seen yet to show otherwise; adding him for a year without an extension at the cost of decently priced Monta and/or Andris over the next few years is foolhardy – leaving huge holes to fill in an uncertain FA & possible lockout year.
simply put, the arguments to trade Monta for Melo are unconvincing, don’t seem to have any statistical or accounting evidence in their favor as of yet, and throwing Andris in the deal is beyond overpaying in a situation when another team is under pressure to make a trade
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
by hardcore on Aug 29, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Trading Monta for one year of Melo makes financial sense.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 29, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
With Carmeo's scoring, ego and lack of defense for 20mill+.... Maggettes contract doesnt look so bad now.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Haha, you read my post?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha, you read my post?
Actually I had not seen your post yet but had a chuckle when just after this thread I saw yours.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
A 'Melo related trade idea that I don't think deserves its own fanpost/fanshot...
So it’ll go here. It’s out of character of me to go posting trade proposals that will never happen, but the horrifying thought of the possibility of getting Carmelo while keeping Ellis made me look into any possible alternative trade scenarios that could actually turn out favorable for us… or to make me happy at the very least:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2eky9x8
- Warriors get Iguodala, who isn’t quite as “prolific” a scorer as ’Melo or Monta but is leagues better at just about everything else. Great passer, rebounder, and defender that can swing both wing positions, spelling Wilbur to play the 3 and allowing Reggie to play the 2 off the bench. Definitely a better option than Carmelo Anthony, in my opinion.
- Philadelphia gets Eddy Curry and Danilo Gallinari. Obviously the team that gets shafted the most talent-wise, but they also get huge financial relief at season’s end on Curry’s expiring. Gallinari also gives them some 3-point shooting that they’ve been desperately looking for after they traded away Ashton Kutcher— I mean Kyle Korver. They’re one of the two teams that may not like this trade, but with a new CBA coming up some cap space may be ideal for them. Perhaps toss in a few future first rounders to try and sweeten the deal?
- Denver gets Monta. They’ll obviously want to get a high-scoring young talent to replace the departing Carmelo. He also gets to play with a proven veteran point guard again in Chauncey Billups, which could give Denver some immediate returns if this allows Monta to return to his ‘07-’08 form. Again, like Philly there is little incentive for them to follow through with this exact trade. The trade could still go down if the Warriors are left out and Denver gets Iguodala instead.
- New York gets Carmelo, who they’ve been after ever since LeBron spurned them for sunny South Beach. If he signs an extension in New York, then it would be extra-satisfying to see New York wither in mediocrity with two “decent-players-who-don’t-deserve-max-contracts” locking up their cap for the foreseeable future.
Wilbur?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions
WYK....now if we could somehow get Iguodala for Ellis and change that would be exciting.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 29, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Given the circumstances, this was pretty much the only scenario I could think of that would land us Iggy and still tie to recent developments in the Carmelo Saga. Almost everyone would get what they want/need; Warriors get a very good do-it-all swingman, Sixers get financial relief, Nuggets get something in return for ‘Melo, Knicks get their coveted prize. Unlikely to happen, but yes something like this would be very exciting. I hope you’re reading this Lacob! Get it done!
Nice bullet points!
We'll miss you Frown-Face Randolph. "You came, you cried, you almost conquered."
TRADE FOR MELO
guys, please think about this. if we got melo, we would have 2 all stars (him and lee). how many teams that have 2 all stars (made the all star team the year before) have not made the playoffs??? we would instantly become a contender in the west. of course we would have to do a sign and trade with denver so that melo would get his money but it’ll be worth it once they make the playoffs. curry, melo, and lee. thats all we need. dont worry about money or anything. we’re not paying for their salaries
guys, please think about this.
I’d ask you the same thing.
we would have 2 all stars (him and lee)
Wait, we’d have two popular players? No freaking way!
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
if we got melo, we would have 2 all stars (him and lee). how many teams that have 2 all stars (made the all star team the year before) have not made the playoffs???
Good question. Were there any?
I like your view of the situation and watching a team with Melo would be more fun than watching the team we have. He also should bring more press interest which could help our future free agent signings?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 29, 2010 10:55 AM PDT reply actions
BRING MELO TO WARRIORS
CARMELO ANTHONY WOULD RAISE THE WARRIORS TO A CONTENDER IF WE KEEP THE RIGHT PIECES AROUND HIM. SO, HERE IS WHAT I PROPOSE IN THE TRADE:
. FIRST REMEMBER MELO WANTS OUT OF DENVER & DENVER WANTS TO GO YOUNG:
TRADE: ELLIS, UDOH & NEXT YEAR’S #1 PICK
RECEIVE: CARMELO & CHAUNCEY BILLUPS
STARTING LINEUP: A. BEIDRINS
C. ANTHONY
D. LEE
C BILLUPS
S CURRY
THIS STARTING LINEUP WOULD AVERAGE 95-100 POINTS PER GAME!
CARMELO VS KOBIE = BIG DRAW EVERY YEAR!
BUT ONLY IF WE SIGN HIM TO MULTI YEAR CONTRACT BEFORE TRADE IS MADE!
WHAT SAY YE WARRIORS FANS?
When I glanced at your post I thought you were selling lady's handbags.
Upon closer inspection, it looks more like a standardized test question.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
REPLY TO DONUT
OK, but what do you think of this lineup & trade? That’s all I want to hear about.
Also a twist but one I’m not in favor of: Replace Monte with Curry?
Let us know.
You would need to send waaaay more salary out for Billups' contract.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 29, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
plus throw in a mop and bucket to clean up the blood from Masai Ujiri’s decapitation when fans find out
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
OK NOT CURRY!
I agree trading Curry is a bad idea & one I don’t support. But Melo for Ellis & a #1 pick is good in my eyes!
SALARY CAP
OK, then throw in Beidrins at $9 mil. Remember we won’t be paying Udoh or next year’s #1 pick! So, set for a few years until Billups in done.
I don’t pay much attention to hypothetical trades since they happen <1% of the time. I just don’t have much fun thinking about them. I was just fascinated by the aesthetics of your post.
Your attempt to make it stand out made it look like spam which I guess ended up working out for you. The downside is that you’ll probably get scolded for it, but that’s a form of attention to so maybe that’s good. That’s pretty much it.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 29, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Goddamn, “REPLY TO DONUT” was the funniest thing I’ve read on this site in weeks, I’m still laughing. Just imagine someone saying that in real life.
by belilaugh on Aug 30, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha, +1.
Hm, looks like you could use a sig quote…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 30, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Nah, I got a good thing going with this no picture, no quote, no FanPost image I’m selling.
I’m not sure what it is, but I know it’s something.
But if I did want a sig “REPLY TO DONUT” would be strongly considered, as well as a made-up, detrimental to his reputation quote by Skeptic Con Urquell.
a made-up, detrimental to his reputation quote by Skeptic Con Urquell.
Haha — but what you possibly make up that could outdo his actual words? The truth is nuttier than fiction…
(If you don’t want it the sigline, I’m going to borrow it for a while…)
REPLY TO DONUT
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 31, 2010 5:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Rec.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions
We should have a poll.
Trade for Melo. y/n.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
Ugh, I hate when ideas like “Carmelo Anthony is a superstar” refuse to die. Carmelo Anthony is not a superstar. Defense matters, he’s not good at it. He can’t create for teammates. He’s not even an efficient scorer (unlike guys like Curry and Lee)….
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 3:37 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
What matters is the defensive and offensive ends
As long as he can play consistently average defense, has the potential to push it to above average, and is not at a height disadvantage — I would be perfectly okay on this end. Realistically, Carmelo is near the bottom of the list comparing eFg% for forwards who attempt 14+ FG/g. However, most of them are locked up on their respective teams, with only West, Zach, and Granger seemingly attainable. I think that if we can scale back how many attempts Carmelo takes, his scoring efficiency can be mended. We have efficient scorers and are good at sharing the ball; I don’t see why he would reasonably need take to 21 shots a night.
On the contract side, we would be paying 19-20 million for his services. He would take less or equally the same amount of shots than Lee and get paid more for it. Is it the right deal? Chris Bosh is getting a max contract to be a shell of his Toronto days and the Heat are on their way to many championship runs. No deal is perfect, but if it gets the wheels turning and his salary does not put a hold on our books, then pull the trigger.
The "Hot Pot" City
by GoldenBlue on Aug 29, 2010 6:34 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
As long as he can play consistently average defense, has the potential to push it to above average
I know I wouldn’t bet $20M a year on that…
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions
He is not getting paid for his defense
it’s his offense that warrants a big contract, albeit not one worth 20M. He presents match-up problems for opposing defenses at 2-4, can score against defenses designed to stop him, and is still young enough to refine his game. He is not a total sieve on defense. With the right coach, training staff, and personnel, the team and Carmelo can play a consistent defense. He should actually be paid around 15-16M, realistically.
The "Hot Pot" City
He is pretty close to a sieve on defense.
Synergy has him ranked in the mid 300’s in the entire league.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Synergy isn't a free service
the numbers are listed in the Carmelo Anthony: Corey Maggette Redux thread
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 8:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually now in the post itself.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Eh, I’m not that high on Melo. All he is is a scorer, and even then, he’s not a real efficient one. He doesn’t create well for teammates, isn’t a “good” defender, and of all the things on our team, putting the ball in the hoop is probably the thing we have the least need for, especially coming in such a huge volume as Melo gives you (since that means less touches for our other good options)….
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s a very bad defender.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 8:38 PM PDT up reply actions
There's not a lot of other options out there
plus I was hoping we could a defensive swingman in the offseason.
The "Hot Pot" City
I think the hope is Dorrell is that guy. Plus, there’s always the option of not making a move…
by Missing Barry on Aug 29, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
putting the ball in the hoop is probably the thing we have the least need for
That’s true but I’ve felt we’ve needed a post scorer for the last 15 years.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
post defender more like it
Thus the move for Udoh. Sound logic if he becomes that. Fingers crossed.
Wright looking to be unhealthy again and our draft pic injured is quite “other-worldly” though. Please Beans return to your old self!
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
And we just got that post scorer, coincidentally enough. Two of them, actually – David Lee AND a healthy Brandan Wright.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
AND a healthy Brandan Wright.
Is BW healthy…do we know for sure? All it took was a couple of tumbles to the floor to knock him outta summer leaque. We should take bets on whether or not he survives training camp! An easy wager would be his survival through Xmas.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions
How is he getting paid to be the shell of his Toronto days? The only way you can say that is based off PPG, which will surely go down, but i’m betting his efficiency goes up, his defense improves because he has more energy for it, his rebounding goes up, and he becomes a better passer.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions
He is not being utilized as he was in Toronto
He is getting a max contract to mostly defend, rebound, and score occasionally. Rebounding will go up, since he was effective at it, but he was not known for effective defense. He is being asked to do less than what he did in Toronto and getting paid for it.
The "Hot Pot" City
His occasional scoring will probably be the best in the league.
I expect him to be around 18 points/36 on TS% of .600+. That is very beneficial to winning games.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 29, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
per/36 is a very optimistic statistic
but I don’t doubt he can achieve close to that and he is insurance if one of the trio gets injured. He is still getting a huge sum for a mostly lessened role.
The "Hot Pot" City
Chris Bosh is getting a max contract to be a shell of his Toronto days
I’m pretty sure that Bosh is getting like $14.5 M next season.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
He is
for the next 6 years. He could have asked for more if the salary cap was higher.
The "Hot Pot" City
Well that's not a max contract, is it?
Joe Johnson got a max contract. The Big Three had to take paycuts to play together so none of them got the maximum salary. LeBron got the most with $110 M/6 years.
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 8:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, according to hoopshype,
LeBron and Bosh got the same amount. Huh
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 29, 2010 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions
ESPN Insider Article
This article was published a few weeks ago. Interesting read. I suggest all the people who really want Melo take a look.
Carmelo Anthony is not an elite player
I know not everyone has Insider access, so here are some of the good bits:
At first glance, Anthony seems like a member of the NBA’s elite, largely due to his scoring prowess. But a deeper look at the points column and elsewhere in his game reveals a player who lives on an undeserved reputation more than his actual impact on wins.
It seems that, anyway we slice it, Anthony is a gunner at the core. His exceptional skill on offense is his ability to get his shot off, whether it’s attacking the rim or through a patented pull-up jumper on the perimeter. But interestingly enough, Anthony got his shot blocked a whopping 109 times last season, which ranks as the second-highest total in the league, according to Hoopdata.com. Evidently, he doesn’t lack perseverance.
Anthony’s case illustrates a fundamental problem in conventional basketball analysis: scoring averages don’t reflect efficiency. It’s true that Anthony scored 28.2 points per game last season, but it’s also true that no player missed more shots as often as Anthony did. Feel free to credit his skill but also pay attention his lofty shot volume and playing time.
So after stripping out the inflationary effect of fast pace and boiling down Anthony’s numbers to a per possession level, his scoring punch looks even more pedestrian. How pedestrian? Anthony’s career offensive rating, an efficiency measure that calculates how many points a player produces per 100 possessions he uses, checks out at 107, which sits right at the league average. For reference, 2003 draft-mates James, Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh have earned 114, 111, and 113 lifetime offensive ratings, respectively.
Before we prematurely call Anthony an average player, there is something to be said for the burden of trust. Not every player can still perform while shouldering the heavy scoring responsibility that Anthony has endured. But the Nuggets have probably allowed Anthony to shoot far too often if efficiency — and winning — is their goal. In fact, last season Melo was only sixth on his own team in ORtg (110), trailing far behind other legit weapons like Nene (124), Chauncey Billups (120) and Ty Lawson (118).
Aside from scoring, Anthony doesn’t have many other bankable weapons as a player. His rebounding (career 6.2 rpg) is only slightly better than what we’d expect from a small forward, and he doesn’t create opportunities for his teammates like Paul Pierce, Wade and James can. Furthermore, he hasn’t shown the intensity and dedication on the defensive end that you’d want from a max player.
In the end, Anthony’s game demonstrates why it’s important to strip away the biases that color our perceptions of elite players. In Anthony’s case, the excessive shot volume, his team’s stat-padding tempo and the lack of a true 3-point game makes his 28.2 ppg seem far less impressive than his sparkling reputation would suggest.
If anything, it’s time we moved on from per-game statistics to evaluate our players. Millions of dollars are wasted every year basing player value on the archaic statistics that teams used half a century ago. And someone will surely overpay Anthony and offer him a max contract — just look at the deals Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay got.
Ronaldhino, jae, and many others here have been discussing these points for a long time now (as far as I can tell), and as someone who has recently begun to drink the Kool-Aid, I highly recommend those of you who only see Melo for his PPG to reconsider your position.
by Evanz on Aug 30, 2010 10:03 AM PDT reply actions 3 recs
It's clear
that Carmelo should not get a 20M contract. He should be paid, by his production, around 16-17M like Rudy Gay. I don’t see why scaling back his shot total wouldn’t fix his efficiency. Of all players who attempted 12+ FG/g, he had a DRtg of 109 last season that places him in the company of Iguodala, Randolph, Johnson, and Roy. Ellis’ best DRtg was 109, but he has fallen to 112 last season — continuing to play a position where some of the West’s best scorers start.
He’s just as young as Ellis, but with higher upside if he can polish his game. He may attract other FA to finish out the roster. His extension would only be 3 years, which is a short time in basketball years. If we let him walk, by that time I’m sure a better FA could be possible. He gets us to the playoffs and valuable experience Curry and Lee need. All wishful thinking, ofc.
The "Hot Pot" City
the thing is we really don't need any more offense
What we need is at least one defensive stopper. I’m hoping Dorell Wright can be that guy, because Curry, Ellis, Lee, and Biedrins aren’t. Melo isn’t either. Udoh may develop into that, but how many minutes will he get? This is why the development of D. Wright is so critical to our chances for success.
this is why Iguodala would be such a great fit for our team
much better than the Warriors, and he probably won’t demand a max contract. But even if he did, the money would be better spent on him than Melo. This lineup would rock:
Curry
Iguodala
D. Wright
Lee
Biedrins
You could bring in Williams off the bench for some extra punch, but the starting lineup would have plenty of offensive firepower, and be much better defensively than our current lineup.
Yeah
That’s definitely one of my fantasy line-ups of choice right now. I’s love to turn Monta and/or our expiring contracts into Iguodala. Not sure if it’s realistic at this point, but it’s close enough to realistic to drool over in late August. ;-)
Golden State Warriors '10-'11 Season: The Return of ^^^^
I’d definitely rather have Iguodala than Melo.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d definitely rather have Iguodala than Melo.
Add me to that camp.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Carmelo CAN'T sign a $20m contract.
The max for a player of his experience is 17.4M.
Rudy Gay’s contract is only worth about $13m this year. It has built in raises which make the average higher than that.
Suggesting that Carmelo has “higher upside” is silly. He’s a 7-year vet. He is who he is. He’s not likely to substantially improve. He shouldn’t start to decline right away, but he’s not going to get much better, either.
I was implying that his contract would run up to 20M in about 2 years
He is not a scoring genius like Durant, but in the right system he can be more efficient. If he calms down his shot total and keep up his D work, like we are all hoping with Monta, he does have higher upside because at the end of the day he doesn’t give up 3 inches to the competition.
The "Hot Pot" City
He may attract other FA to finish out the roster.
I honestly don’t see how with the kind of long term contracts we’d have on our books at that point.
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
In a scenario parting with Biedrins and Ellis
We would have 18M to spend on free agents. Outside of Carmelo’s exorbitant contract and Lee’s 12M, only several player’s like Udoh, Dorell, and Curry have 3M contracts. Getting a center everyone’s happy with (Marc) is a dice roll.
The "Hot Pot" City
Kind of reminds me how Vince Carter was looking like he was going to be a future superstar early in his career.
Yet it didnt quite turn out that way.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Good read, thanks Evanz
Especially since I refuse to pay ESPN for their Insider stuff.
Confident Marco Belinelli supporter
Ode to Tim Kawakami
by Doctor Kajita on Aug 30, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Wow, if only they had the balls to make a post like this about Kobe.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Aug 30, 2010 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Sports Guy had Melo at #6 in 2010 Trade Value Column
I for one would be thrilled if the Ws got ‘Melo. The guy knows how to win games and would be a fantastic fit next to Curry and Lee. Like I said, Bill Simmons had Melo ranked # 6 in his 2010 Trade Value column. http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100208/two Assuming Melo signs an extension before getting traded I’d quickly deal for him with either of the two scenarios already discussed in the comments. And I don’t know why people are still so enamored with Andris. What if he never gets back to his 2008 form? Why be stuck with a risk when you can a proven All Star in Carmelo. As Bill Simmons says, you “You can absolutely win a title if Carmelo is your best player.”
Simmons is generally a smart basketball watcher -
- but he has a weak spot when it comes to efficiency. (See his praise for Allen Iverson over the years).
Some of the evidence for this is that Denver isn’t being bowled over with trade offers for him. Imagine, for a minute, that Wade was available. What kind of offers do you think Miami would get for him? Or imagine what Paul is likely to go for.
Carmelo just isn’t in that league as a player. And Simmons is wrong if he thinks he is.
Only words to Anthony are as followed
Welcome To The Bay!
Uhm
Does anyone beside me think people are overrating Carmelo a bit too much..
He hasn’t really proved much in the playoffs.. he’s basically Tmac; can get his stats filled up but bogus in the playoffs.
I rather have a team player, but a player can change if they “join forces” like how Ray Allen, Pierce,Garnett worked well and won a Ring.
A Melo,Lee, Curry is alright.. we’ll never know unless a trade goes down
7
Yeah, a lot of us agree with you
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Anyone know if this is really Ty's twitter?
by Precise Films Productions on Aug 30, 2010 6:28 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
It is, but he removed the tweet
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Ppl Please understand the guy is a Legit "Gamer Changer"
Curry,Williams,Melo,Lee,Beans Playoffs you wanna talk about Playoffs with Melo were a 3 seed at worst in the new redefined West! In the words of the immortal Mike Singletary “I Want Winners”. Hello were contenders!
Ppl Please understand the guy is a Legit “Gamer Changer”
Care to support that with more than “ppl please understand”……?
by Missing Barry on Aug 30, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions
west is on the downfall
i agree that the west is becoming inferior to the east. stoudamire went to the east so the suns are going to be bad, mavs and spurs are getting old, if melo leaves, then denver would fall, and utah lost boozer. the teams on the rise are the thunder, blazers and hopefully the warriors if we get melo.
stoudamire went to the east so the suns are going to be bad
I don’t know about that. They added some other talent. Also- David Lee came West.
warriors if we get melo.
Warriors are on the rise whether we get Melo or not
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Also the Clips and Sactown are collecting a lot of talent.
We are foolish if we donot think that they will be right there with the Warriors.
by Only In Fairfax on Aug 30, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
warriors could look good in the future
if they traded for carmelo. they would get rid of ellis’ and ab’s contracts and with all the expiring contracts they have, can pursue a free agent like marc gasol. lees making 11 mil, curry and d wright are making 3 mil each, melo would make around 17 mil. thats 34 million and the cap is 58 million. including a few players here and there, the warriors would have about 20 million to spend on free agency.
the top tier teams always go over the cap like the lakers, mavericks, celtics. in order to be good, you have to give up the money. at this point as a warriors fan, i just want them to make the playoffs. that would be like them winning the championship to me. please warriors just make the playoffs
they would get rid of ellis’ and ab’s contracts
What’s wrong with AB’s contract?
Flannelcore
by Reverend_Randy on Aug 30, 2010 10:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: What’s wrong with AB’s contract?
The answer to that question is directly related to the answer to: “what’s wrong with his head/abdomen”.
Hopefully the answer to both is “nothing”.
play like a 1 man guy
by bloodsweatndonuts on Aug 31, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
[I have nothing to add to this excellent observation, but I’m posting to officially activate my new sig-quote.]
REPLY TO DONUT
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 31, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
REPLY TO DONUT
What does that mean?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Aug 31, 2010 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s the headline of an actual post upthread. Don’t worry, I’ll go back to my old sig eventually, but I’m still amused by it…
REPLY TO DONUT
by Sleepy Freud on Aug 31, 2010 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions
REPLY TO DONUT
is an awesome sig line
I’m thinking about rocking this one for a while…just seems awefully deep for something coming out of Chris Bosh’s mouth
"There's more to life than basketball. I can't play this game my whole life. I'm just trying to figure out what I like to do and meet some cool people along the way." -Chris Bosh
by Duby Dub Dubs on Sep 1, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
How much do you think it would take to sign Gasol & have a decent bench?
Top tier teams go over the cap but there are non-top tier teams which also push the cap. Going over the cap doesn’t guarantee success.
A “few players here & there” … bench players don’t make max $$ but good ones are going to command a lot more than NBA minimums.
17 million is not enough to keep Carmelo.
Don’t think Carmelo is going to stay w/ the Warriors for anything less than max.
But that’s the starting salary, right, and it escalates over the course of the contract?
Give me Andris and Monta on $18M fixed for a shorter duration any day.
by Missing Barry on Aug 31, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, that's the starting salary.
In theory, if the cap goes up enough, the raises are no big deal.
But in practice, Mullin deserves a lot of credit for those non-escalating contracts. I’m surprised more GMs don’t do that.
by Ronaldinho on Aug 31, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
$$ vs. skill
Don’t think anyone disputes that Anthony would improve this team.
I think the arguement from those against Anthony —> tying up so much cap room into one player who is not a franchise player. If you feel Anthony is a very good player but not an elite player then you can’t use max level $$ to lock him into contract because you’re restricting future moves. Max salary on Carmelo will limit your ability to trade him so if he isn’t the answer then you are pretty much stuck eating that salary for years & also limited when pursuing big FA signings in the future.
Max salary players must be able to help you reach championship level because there’s only so much salary left for the supporting cast.
===
Is Carmelo a very good player? Yes (I think it’s something the entire board can agree on)
Is Carmelo good enough to be a franchise cornerstone? …. Well, I’m not so sure about this.
Carmelo puts up good numbers but takes lots of shots. Plus, he’s known to be an average or below average defender. Curry & Lee right now are not known as solid defenders either (but Curry is still only rookie so hopefully this will improve) … add in Carmelo who’s not a good defender …. now we’ve got 3/5 of team who can’t play good D.
This can all probably work defensively with an extremely solid defensive center to protect the paint but C is an expensive position (unless you get a really good C on rookie contract).
I think there's a healthy dispute about whether Anthony would improve this team or not.
And if he’s a very good player.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 31, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I think there's no question that Anthony would have been an asset last year.
He’s an above-average player, and even if he would have been a clunky fit, we had so many injuries and so many other problems that he definitely would have helped.
Its hard to imagine him not taking some of Monta’s shots, for example. And while he wouldn’t have addressed our defensive needs, if he plays Vlad, George’s, and some of Tolliver and Hunter’s minutes, that’s an improvement for that team.
However, this year we’re already a drastically different team. It seems unlikely that we’ll have the same injury problems, so already we don’t expect to be running those four guys out there for 3600 minutes.
But this year, we’re a very different team. Monta will already be giving up some of those shots to Curry+Lee. D.Wright brings skills that this team needs. B. Wright, apparently healthy, gives us solid backup big minutes and should take a bunch of high-efficiency shots. Carmelo’s skill set becomes a lot less important, and his weaknesses tend to reinforce the weaknesses we already have.
Particularly if Nellie doesn’t come back, this team is going to be very very different than the last team we had. It’s going to be very hard to make direct comparisons. Six of our top eight players in terms of minutes played from last season are no longer with the team.
The discussion is about now, however.
And, specifically, what would be sent out to acquire him. If it’s a straight up swap of Monta and Carmelo, there’s a case to be made (although, you’d have to assume then Reggie Williams becomes the starting SG and that opens up a whole different line of discussion). But if the package is Monta + BW or Andris + other stuff, I don’t see how Carmelo’s addition would be an improvement.
by Spider Jerusalem on Aug 31, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Even if it’s a net talent gain, shipping out a big for Carmelo creates a huge defense/rebounding/size problem which could make us worse even if Carmelo is better than the guys it takes to get him.
Have you guys seen
this:
“According to one report, the Nets are not willing to include Brook Lopez in an attempt to trade for Carmelo Anthony. But New Jersey’s offer of Devin Harris, Derek Favors and draft picks may still give the Nuggets the best pieces in return for Anthony.
The Warriors may offer Stephen Curry, Andris Biedrins and draft picks but are not sure that they will make Curry available.”
If this is true, we´re done.
Eff REFS
Nevermind.
I promptly rescind my previous support for trading for Melo.
Although this is pretty funny, Curry is staying here, thank you very much.
Is this real or fiction?
Doesn’t seem believable that an NBA player would put out a $5000 twitter reward for video of someone being slapped. I’d think someone with so much $$ can come up w/ a better way of seeking revenge.
I have been a loyal Fan for as long as I can remember I am 31 yes I do remember Run TMC!
With that said I’m tired of waiting for next year! By the wAy what’s it been 16 out of the last 17 years we’ve been saying that! I used to be kid but now I’m a man with kids enough! Get Melo I don’t care if it costs 17mil or 25il dude as long as it’s not Curry care I don’t want to just make the playoffs I want a contender I want some thing in that conversation With the Lakers Celtics Mavs Magic Heat! We deserve it for as much as we have been through year in and out my fellow Warriors Fans we are the Cubs of the west let’s get it Done
It's amazing to me how someone could be unsatisfied with 16 of 17 years of losing ...
… and yet be willing to throw away talent for the sake of another playoff appearance.
You don’t break a losing culture by trading for players who will only be on your team for a season. Furthermore, the notion that we would somehow become a championship contender if we added Carmelo while giving up a reasonable amount of talent to acquire him is ridiculous.
by Ronaldinho on Sep 3, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, Carmelo and his wife are stupid
I didn’t even know about that whole $5,000 twitter reward ordeal what a joke. How can someone who makes so much money be so damn dumb? Also, it seems like his wife Lala or whatever runs the show in that relationship. In the second link posted by kashrocks (this one to be exact: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/2010/08/carmelo-anthony-to-the-wizards.html) it reads: The New Jersey Nets and Los Angeles Clippers have emerged as the two most probable destinations, with Anthony’s wife, LaLa Vasquez, a former MTV personality, seeking to find a better location to pursue her entertainment career". So basically Carmelo is going to whatever city lala thinks she has the best chance at pursuing her joke of a career. I dont even want those two near the bay area.
by nhlogan on Sep 3, 2010 12:15 PM PDT reply actions
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