SB Nation Bay Area Editor's Pick
Dynamics of David Lee & Andris + Misadventures of the Randolph zealot
In 2006, the Denver Nuggets rewarded a notoriously one dimensional player in Reggie Evans (when he was the same age as Lee), a contract that earned him 5 million dollars as a 10th man last season. A bit expensive for a 6-8 player who only rebounds the ball, right? Although he has recently fell from the Raptor's grace, at the time he was considered an asset worth nearly half of what our starting power forward is making now. Focusing on the fact that he is a tremendously flawed player in virtually every category besides rebounding, was his exclusive ability reason enough to merit such a respectable contract?
It was painfully illustrated last year how losses correlate to incompetent big men on the glass. Even in the event of when the team picks up their defensive assignments, if the opposing team matches up better in the rebounding battle on a nightly basis, when does good defense begin to matter? How many times did you want to empty your beer on your head after watching 22 seconds of effort on defense, only to see our players miss the collection and still suffer the two points? If you're willing to make a deal to support the same disease of Nellie ball, by bringing in a "superstar scorer", minus a prolific rebounder, then I don't know how you feel about losing.
David Lee and Andris Biedrins will not allow consecutive losses. Consistency rules this out in all likelihood, by extracting logic from a simple and original, golden rule - Dominate the glass, win the game. If you have 2 players at the most crucial rebounding positions on the floor who deliver 10+ pulls a game, for a season, you're playing the percentages in a mighty fine way - An intelligible way. If you're playing a scorer who demands 40 minutes/25-30 shots a night, (while sitting a more efficient and unselfish scorer) you're counting on his demand of the ball + efficiency to fall perfectly into motion with what the rest of the team is trying to get accomplished on offense. Not only does this disrupt team flow and make it more of an individual performance, but you're relying heavily on a player, rather than a team, to win or lose the game for you. You're disallowing your best scorer and decision maker in Stephen Curry, to score and make decisions. This is when rebounding actually becomes less important, comparatively. Because now, regardless of how many possessions you earn, you're still depending on the hot/cold nature of your superstar scorer, tipping the average of touches on offense towards one player, subtracting value from the rebound.
However, you get a couple of very effective rebounders at the 4/5 spots, and then pair them with efficient scorers, teams are looking straight down the barrel of a high caliber pistol for the most of 82 games.
In a sense, David Lee is one of the best offensive players in the league. What good is a Ferrari, if somebody takes away the keys? In a game of sequence, an offensive possession begins with the rebound. David Lee is equally adept at beginning and ending this crucial sequence, consistently. This makes him invaluable as an offensive weapon, in every sense of the word. Right, well what about his defense? He is not a shot blocker. However, he's not a bad defender in the post, as in his footwork, his strength to hold position, his ability to neutralize an opponent's positioning for rebounds, his durability (81 games last year), and lastly, his will to confiscate the ball via the defensive glass.
Naturally, he was unmatched last year playing at center. Personally, I'm amazed he played in 81 games at that position, going up against men who were significantly bigger. This gives me confidence that he will improve his reputation on the defensive end, as he becomes refreshed towards facing more natural opponents.
Remember when Baron signed with the Clippers? Do you remember Monta Ellis' comments? Clearly, Monta was not as open to just coming straight out and saying, "I'm Monta da boss", as he was playing like it was his team, stepping way out of his boundaries to fill that void.
Why didn't he do this when Baron was on the team? Surely, he could have dominated the ball more and passed less when he was scoring at a higher rate? There was nothing left to the subconscious when Baron brought the ball up the court and called out the plays, directing traffic with his finger and glowering over his shoulder at players who fell out of position. The trade for David Lee returns this same dynamic to the Warriors' franchise.
Not only does the improvement of Curry help make roles more apparent, but the extreme reversal of having a player like Randolph who was more likened to a chicken minus a head on the court, to now a star veteran big man, and student of the game in Lee, helps on an even greater level. I've seen Lee get into teammate's faces. He's a confrontational guy as it is, and with the ink still fresh on his contract, and with the status of an all-star, he's unofficially "the Man" amongst the surrounding eyes within the locker room. He's not uncle Cliffy, but at this point, his experience and accomplishments remain unmatched, and that's going to make Curry's transition to leader much simpler. Who will voice objection to both of these players? Coincidentally, they've clearly made strides towards strengthening that unity over the summer.
Team chemistry is born when the team leaders buy into the coach's philosophy, and act on their own as assistants. This was simply not possible with Don Nelson on board, Ellis running the show, and hopes of Randolph quickly maturing and developing into the leader and player David Lee is today. Lee is not Tom Gugliotta, and Anthony Randolph is not Chris Webber. I have yet to see a roster with potential win as many games as a roster with players capable of production. It's obvious what Monta must do to be productive. Would Anthony Randolph's presence on the court provoke this change as greatly as David Lee's? By creating an environment with less to overcome, we are a step closer towards being successful. The AR, Lee trade accomplished this.
Andris Biedrins
Every time Lee touches the ball, Andris Biedrins will not touch the ball. We can agree that with players like Curry and Ellis on the floor at the same time, who also demand touches that will subtract from Lee's, it will often be the case that Andris will not have the ball. What does this mean? We must rely on Biedrins to be extremely effective off the ball. The good news - He already is. To parrot myself, Andris Biedrins is the best complementary center in the league. He accentuates an offensive power forwards production by A) creating possessions through rebounding, thus opportunities for the scoring PF to execute B) He does not take away possessions from the PF C) He his smart and agile enough to set picks on the perimeter, spreading the defense for the PF D) He will catch and finish anything the PF gives him, once he runs into trouble (double-team, namely)
Letter D, invokes a point about David Lee's passing that should not go unnoticed. How many PF's in the league score over 20ppg and are willing passers like Lee? How many of them exist? Lee and Biedrins are a perfect pair. Add Dorell Wright to that mix, and your base of the triangle on the high block is D Wright (point A) and David Lee (point B) with Andris at the point of your triangle under the hoop at point C. You have two lengthy passers on the high block, and a catch and finish center at the goal. This means all three of your front court players are in a natural position to play significantly better off of one another. They just need to come together.
Again, Larry Riley deserves a job. It was his idea to bring Lee and Wright on board, and Biedrins remains a Warrior. I see Riley's vision, and he is truly a basketball mind. Lacob would do well to keep him around. I'd love to see how he evolves the rest of the roster with all the tools he has to work with. Biedrins is an invaluable piece to this franchise and should not be traded until proven otherwise. I truly believe this team will win 44 games or more.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
126 comments
|
17 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
quality - perhaps overly optimistic - analysis
Nice work, I hope you are right.
I too worry that we won’t have enough balls on the court to go around, leading to some players not being active enough without the ball. Guys like Biedrins are used to it, as is Wright, but the other three?
A lot will depend on Curry, Does he want to be a steve nash type, developing his passing and only taking high percentage shots when necessary? or does he want to be more like CP3, a great passer who looks for his shot more often?
For team success I hope its Nash, we shall see. If Monta averages 20 plus a game, and Lee 18 plus, and Curry 15-17, and 8 dimes, then we are playing the right way and using each player’s skill set well.
I do think people are a little optimistic about what the change of position will do for Lee's defense -
- but I think they’re far too pessimistic about the value of having a team full of good rebounders. Right now our starting frontline (Wright, Lee, Beans) is a very good at rebounding, and that’s going to make a big difference.
I agree
I’ve been really positive about this new team, which is why I actually want Nellie to stay. He finally has a team that’s capable of rebounding. Rebounding has always been a negative in Nellie’s system, but now he has the right players to overcome that obstacle and take the team to a whole different level. Another positive from the David Lee acquisition is that Nellie finally has a player with post moves who can average 20ppg. He hasn’t had that since Chris Webber and Dirk Nowitzki, and when you add Lee’s post moves with Biedrin’s efficient buckets then it gives the Warriors a deadly offense; they can finally play an inside-out offense.
The thing with the Warriors is that they’ve always been a high scoring team, but what matters is how they score the ball. With Nellie, their points have been coming from guard play, which was chucking up three pointers and driving in. When you look at Warriors losses, the team would lose when their shots don’t fall and when they get outrebounded. Now that they have Lee, the team doesn’t have to rely on outside shots all the time, so when their shots don’t fall they can pass the ball down low to Lee because he can initiate his own offense. This gives the Warriors a better chance of winning games because they don’t have to live and die by the three anymore; they can score from basically anywhere. Also, they won’t get outrebounded as much because of the D-Wright/Lee/Biedrins trio.
by Precise Films Productions on Sep 5, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
+1
couldn’t agree more
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Owner: Joe Lacob, Peter Guber
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Over 1,000 wins online with GSW in 2K10
..............SC30..............
I agree as well
Although Webber was among the greatest passing bigs to ever play the game. Webber and Divac really kept it going. They could play that ball like Jimi played the guitar.
Yeah
It’s a shame that C-Webb couldn’t stay in Golden State back in the day, though. I’m not saying that David Lee is anywhere as good as C-Webb, I’m just saying that it’s been a while since Nellie had a big man who could score inside.
When it comes to Nellie and the big men he’s coached in recent years with the Warriors, this is how I see it compared to what he has now in David Lee:
So far, Nellie has had big men who had potential to be really good. These big men are Andris Biedrins, Brandan Wright and Anthony Randolph. The problem is that Nellie isn’t good at developing young players, and failed to utilize them properly. When Brandan Wright joined the Warriors after the We Believe season, Nellie didn’t give him any minutes at all and jokingly said that he “doesn’t play players who still have braces”.
So while the Warriors have had problems scoring inside and rebounding, Nellie could have solved it by running plays for the efficient Biedrins and giving more minutes to players like Randolph and Wright, but he failed to do so. Those players were too young for him. Meanwhile, the players that are “old enough to play” weren’t really good offensively to succeed in Nellie’s offense. Players like Ronny Turiaf, Mikki Moore and others were veterans, but weren’t good. The only veteran big that Nellie could somewhat utilize properly was Troy Murphy, but he was dealt to Indiana in a big trade that helped us make the Playoffs.
Now comes David Lee.
David Lee solves Nellie’s “coaching problems” because he’s the type of player that Nellie hasn’t had the opportunity to coach in a very long time. He’s not too young like Randolph, and he’s also capable of initiating his own offense (unlike Biedrins) while also being a good rebounder. He’s the type of proven NBA veteran big man that Nellie’s been needing.
Also, even though Brandan Wright is still young and raw, I have confidence that Nellie will still give him minutes this upcoming season. The reason I think that is because our team is currently thin when it comes to depth, and Nellie will be forced to play B-Wright.
Like you said in your post, Biedrins is the best complimentary big in the league. He can score efficiently, and while he hasn’t succeeded as the main big man on the Warriors, the acquisition of David Lee helps him a lot because it gives him another big to play alongside with, a big that can score and will help rebound. As a result, it takes pressure off of Biedrins and will hopefully lead to him being more productive.
As for another “problem” that needs to be fixed, all of this new found scoring capabilities inside the post/paint will result in Monta being more productive as well. It takes pressure off of him since he finally has teammates who can score, and he can play a role similar to his 07-08 self. He has a now proven point guard in Stephen Curry to play with, and if shots don’t go in from the outside he has a big man in David Lee who he can pass the ball inside to to score in the paint. While Monta won’t be as efficient as his 07-08 self, he definitely won’t be as much of a chucker like he was in 09-10. The emergence of Stephen Curry and the acquisition of David Lee will be a big factor in Monta’s “comeback” season.
I also see this upcoming season as a redemption year for Don Nelson. He’s led the team to wins in 06-07 and 07-08, but the Warriors have gone downhill since then and people have resorted to looking down on Nellie. I feel that now that this team has the right pieces, Nellie will finally be able to bring us back to those We Believe days. He might even get us further, too. We finally have a good frontline, which has been lacking on Warriors teams for the past decade. People better get ready to see a more “evolved” version of Nellie-ball now that the coach has a team that’s capable of playing an inside-out offense.
by Precise Films Productions on Sep 6, 2010 6:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But it's not about Nellie.
David Lee solves Nellie’s "coaching problems" because he’s the type of player that Nellie hasn’t had the opportunity to coach in a very long time. He’s not too young like Randolph, and he’s also capable of initiating his own offense (unlike Biedrins) while also being a good rebounder. He’s the type of proven NBA veteran big man that Nellie’s been needing.
Nellie’s lineup problems have often been of his own making, but more importantly:
This season is not about what the team can do for Nellie. It is about what Nellie can do for the team.
I agree that this is our best-looking roster in a while. I suspect that no matter WHO is the coach the team will show dramatic improvement from last season.
And certainly, it’d be nice for Nellie to be able to ride of into the sunset being fondly remembered as the architect of this resurgence even though, in reality, he hasn’t been. But we’d get to read and write a lot of feel-good posts about how “Nellie shows he still has it,” and blah blah blah.
And yet … that’s not the most important thing for the team right now. The purpose of the team is not to validate Nellie’s career. It’s not to show us what Nellie can still do.
And this team has a couple of issues that Nellie seems unwilling or incapable of addressing. Monta’s selfish play, for example. And his poor communication with Biedrins. These are two plaeyrs who are part of our long term plan and we run the risk of finding ourselves in a situation where we have no choice but to trade them for substantially reduced value … and we just can’t afford that.
The Monta situation is, I fear, not about whether Monta plays off theball or not, although I think him playing off the ball will help. But Monta is not going to reach the high levels of efficiency he showed us three seasons ago unless he makes a commitment to passing to the open man when double-teamed. And that requires a coach who’s committed to teaching him that lesson … which Nellie clearly isn’t.
Great writeup!
I love writeups that are about praise and hope. I too believe they’ll have a great season and will shut up the doubters. Whatever we had last season, lets forget about it. This new roster is way more balanced and actually resembles a team. We no longer have the same kind of talent on the bench as our starters. A team should have starters that are better than the bench so they always get their 30+ MPG and not have to worry about getting benched the next. Sure our bench isn’t as deep as last year but at least we’ll have some consistency and better rebounding/defense
F the Po Po
I love write ups that are about praise and hope.
what if there is none? Then do you like them to lie or to just not write anything?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 3, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I really enjoyed reading this FanPost
I shared the same sentiments when news about Rodney Carney came out (is that still unconfirmed)? I went on to say that Riley is constructing a team with a vision and with players that will have defined roles, playing in defined positions. While Don Nelson, presuming he’s going to be the coach, will still find a way to tinker with mismatches (i.e. play players out of position), it will be hard to if he finds success when players like Biedrins and Lee will complement each other and ultimately complement the team.
In a game of sequence, an offensive possession begins with the rebound.
I understand you’re saying that David Lee’s ability to grab the defensive rebound will start an offensive possession, which in turn is a form of good defense (this is Matt Steinmetz’s point when rumors about acquiring David Lee began), but I’m sure you realize that an offensive possession can also begin with a turnover, a field goal made by the other team, or free throws made by the other team. But I digress…that wasn’t your point, but I think it’s fair to acknowledge other types of possessions since we’re talking about the value of possessions and defense (good or bad).
Every time Lee touches the ball, Andris Biedrins will not touch the ball.
I think we can reverse this thinking too. Remember, Biedrins was/is a pretty good passer. Perhaps “good” isn’t the right word, but he’s certainly a willing passer who looks for cutters and guys coming off screens. I don’t think Biedrins not touching the ball is necessarily a good thing as you suggest. Just the presence of a center with the ball in the post is enough to initiate offense off the ball. If David Lee is setup on the weak side, Biedrins can receive the ball and make a move towards the basket, collapsing the defense, and pass it out on the perimeter where they can swing it around to Lee for a baseline jumper or find him cutting to the basket backdoor. Just an example, but I digress once again. Biedrins’ best assets are contributions made off the ball, crashing the offensive boards, setting picks, and allowing David Lee match-up against a PF, not a C.
"the world is not your trade machine" - wallywagon11
by Doctor Kajita on Sep 3, 2010 9:46 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
You're right Doc
I was sort of wearing the rose veiled glasses during the majority of this posting. I should have recognized the other ways possessions come into play. I forgot to mention that Biedrins is too, a good passer. Good thinking!
Good post. Rec’d. i think your points on biedrins are good. he is a good passer and he moves well without the ball offensively he knows where to be. not to the elite level of lee but he is a good center for a high scoring PF. between, lee, Biedrins, D. Wright, and Curry. this should be a very good passing team. i hope they move the ball like the old kings used to. i even think monta is a good passer when he wants to be. at least for a shooting guard.
This reminded me again how valuable and good beidrins can be. he is the biggest question mark to me going into 2010 in regard to our team success. However, he needs to get better. it drives me crazy. there is no reason he shouldn’t be hitting the weight room, bulking up. his defense has to improve if we are ever going to contend in the west. he really is the key. if he could learn to anticipate, hold position and play just a bit more physical then we could do a lot of damage with this team. really all these listed short comings boil down to effort. does he put time in scouting his opponet. knowing their go to moves and anticipating it?
Brandan Wright
is the biggest question mark to me going into the 2010 season. He hasn’t had long to play basketball and get back into form, but I think the training camp should snap him back. I don’t know if he’ll be as good as last year around that same time, but after 20 games, if he stays healthy, who knows how good he can be. I really have no clue how he’s going to do this season, but hearing the way coaches and players have spoken about him, and from the flashes we’ve seen of him – his quickness getting to the rim and his soft touch, catching passes, he can be oh so sexy playing with a passer like Curry, and a slasher like Ellis. Or he could just as easily be very timid and passive. If he plays well, he can spell David Lee effectively.
Going back to your point, I’m personally not too worried about Andris. Next to Lee and Curry, I think he’s one of our more consistent players. You raise an excellent point about his defense. Andris can play very good, energetic defense when he’s motivated, but a chief concern at this point would be his fouling. I can see him getting 4 fouls in 3 quarters and really hindering the team in the 4th.
The great news about Biedrins’ mediocrity on this end, is the fact that there’s really not many dominant offensive centers in the league that can hurt us tremendously with their scoring. The very bad news, is I think we will need Biedrins to be a shot blocker on a regular basis, if Monta Ellis starts, and if David Lee’s transition to PF bares fruitless results. He is not an intimidating force, and I think slashers would just as soon go right at him. Not only will this put him in premature foul trouble, but it’s going to bang up his body too. This is bad. We don’t have Turiaf anymore, and “The Nightmare” is going to be out until they’re singing auld lang syne.
In all fairness to Andris, he may just as well be lifting weights as we speak. We know he’s been rehabbing his body overseas, we’ll know soon enough if he’s improved it as well. I don’t like to take too much from one interview, but once we start winning, once Lacob wises up and fires Nelson, we’ll start seeing the old Andris going up two, three, four times, tipping the ball to himself for the rebound. It’s a lonely death when you’re left hung out to dry, after Stephen Jackson has just demanded a trade, and publicly condemned the franchise, while Monta eats everyone’s lunch.
We are in desperate need of a player like Robin Lopez. Maybe Udoh can be similar – an energy, high character, team-oriented, defensive guy. It’s really a shame he got hurt.
Also, sorry,
But I won’t deny I was very discouraged by Andris’ interview. I overreacted because it’s kind of like watching a 16 year old drive drunk. While he’s not your kid, it’s still concerning. The situation we’re flirting with (if he wanted to be traded) could be a disastrous one. A bad analogy, but I feel like Andris is a son to this franchise(therefore my own) and I got a little overprotective. We’d have a very slim chance at getting a good center back, especially a young one, if Nelson stays around to fan those flames. If we’re stuck in a position where Andris gets hurt again, while Nelson is under contract for a year, a trade is almost inevitable. God won’t be able to bail us out of that one, let alone Riley. It would be an ugly trade. While it’s not good to overreact(which I did) it’s equally bad to downplay comments and feelings like those he expressed.
I know Lacob’s going to do this his own way. Whether it’s firing Don Nelson or sitting down with the three of them – it’s completely his call. We’re in his hands. I hope he fires him.
i seem to always forget about Brandan Wright. Probably for a reason. He is a big question mark but his role on this team is not as crucial as Beidrins in terms of team success. Cousins, Bynum, Mark Gasol, Yao, Caveman, etc. these are all good scoring centers in the west. Beidrins needs to up his defense or we will not win, period. Otherwise, i agree with you completely.
If we trade him can we get a better center? i don’t know. He won’t be easily replaced but next summer guys like Mark Gasol and Tyson Chandler will be FA….
However, i hope Beidrins doesn’t just have a bounce back year but has his best yet. he’s got to get better. Everyone else is and he will fall behind.
once Lacob wises up and fires Nelson, we’ll start seeing the old Andris
but don’t forget that the “old andris” was a product of nellie’s coaching so there’s little reason to belive a new coach is gonna get any more out of Dre.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 5, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Product of Nellie's coaching
I’m not sure how true this is. Biedrins was never a “Nellie guy”, but got decent minutes because he’s consistently been a very good rebounder on a team riddled with horrible rebounders, year after year. Still, I thought Andris could have logged a lot more minutes, even when Nelson started him.
Rec'd For me this was the best post this summer !
Even if they had been healthy last season the Warrior felt like fragmented components in my mind. The drafting of Udoh although not very well accepted by fans started to show that Riley has a plan/vision for the team and it was cemented by the summer moves with Lee/Wright & AR. The tough thing is how shallow we are without Buike/Turiaf/Morrow etc. but we are a work in progress that seems to be on the right path.
I would agree that a healthy and back to form A Biedrins is the perfect essential complement at C which dismays me when I see the trade Beans posts.
I would agree tha Riley should keep his job unless there is actions that prove other wise. So far I cannot see any mistakes in his plans. Man I do wish that Udoh was not injured so we could get a look.
Cuodos for a fine read !
by Only In Fairfax on Sep 3, 2010 10:15 AM PDT reply actions
Sums up my views on the Warriors nicely, well except I wouldn't use the word "we." =)
The tough thing is how shallow we are without Buike/Turiaf/Morrow etc. but we are a work in progress that seems to be on the right path.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I think this team is Nelly-proof
What do I mean by that? Well, the roster is now made up of guys that, more or less, have an obvious position. There’s not really much tinkering that Nelly can do. Even if Nelly goes really small by putting Curry, Monta, and Reggie on the floor, we’re still probably going to have Dorell and Lee out there or Lee and Biedrins (or maybe B. Wright and Lee). All of our bigs can run the floor, too. Hope I’m right, anyway.
Yeah
The only position with an undersized player is SG with Monta. We might be able to say the same for C depending what the C rotation is going to be like, but that’s not too concerning to me as long as whoever plays there can stand their position on D and grab boards.
"the world is not your trade machine" - wallywagon11
by Doctor Kajita on Sep 3, 2010 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions
it may be unfair to say this
but I think Curry is on the hot seat here. By hot seat I mean the success of failings of this season will be determined by his play more than anyone else on the team.
I know most would say Monta but I think he’ll be fine, his numbers will dip some, he’ll blend into the background a bit (where I think he prefers to be) and his play will be less of a factor for our win/loss record than in the past.
However, Curry is not playing well in worlds and I wonder how this is effecting his psyche. I know it is a small sample size but it is also magnified because of the status it carries. If he continues to struggle in the worlds will he be able to put it behind him and just play ball like he did last season, or will he feel the need to show he elite and as a result, force the action and focus too much on scoring?
He has lived a blessed life, this seems to be one of the first time he has seen hardship, he’s still pretty young. I know he has great mentors, maturity, and a good head on his shoulders – so I am optimistic he won’t let his experience in the Worlds mess with him too much.
Curry seems like the kind of guy who would use a poor performance as motivation to work harder
I’m not worried about his mental state.
this seems to be one of the first time he has seen hardship
I dunno about that. In terms of basketball, colleges barely had any interest in him and he had to show them what he could do at Davidson playing against tougher competition. Then come draft time there were questions about whether he could be a PG, or was athletic enough, and how his competition level was, etc. I think compared to other NBA players, from a basketball perspective he’s had plenty of times where he’s been the “underdog”….
by Missing Barry on Sep 3, 2010 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Also,
remember that Curry didn’t play particularly well early during his rookie season. His shot was suffering the same inaccuracy it is now. I’m not sure what this can be attributed to, but many believe it’s a mixture of his off-season weight lifting + the lighter weight of the world ball. I’m not really worried about Curry. He’s got so much natural talent, and I think he’s got the confidence to deal in the hot seat, and then some.
Curry’s shot is definitely not something I worry about. We all know he’s going to start knocking em down any second.
by Missing Barry on Sep 3, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
We
also don’t oversee his performances during practice. Kevin Love has, and he’s said that Curry is the most impressive player he’s seen within these practices. Not a big deal, but definitely note worthy, when conversation is exploring his game, status quo.
Curry has many aspects to his game that he can fall back if his shooting/scoring isn’t in top form so I’m not too worried about him. And the other aspects of his game, such as passing and defense, are ones that aren’t susceptible to slumps like shooting.
"the world is not your trade machine" - wallywagon11
by Doctor Kajita on Sep 3, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Curry being on the hot seat isn't a bad thing. I wouldn't worry about saying that.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
he supposedly 'struggled' during summer league last year though
Maybe he doesn’t like playing in the heat? I wouldn’t worry about it, across the board players say that the National team makes them better.
. I know it is a small sample size but it is also magnified because of the status it carries
Don’t sweat it, NBA results do not care about the worlds as much as the world apparently cares about them. These games are what players do for a vacation, they are not the job.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 3, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Yup, I hope that doesnt happen with him.I am thinking that he is fairly mature for his age and mentally together and his Dad’s support/widom he has a fallback sounding board to turn to. Perhaps it could be thing that helps him not to full of himself too fast and continue to learn from adversity.
by Only In Fairfax on Sep 3, 2010 12:32 PM PDT reply actions
Pontificate all u want...
But the truth about the D. Lee / Randolph swamp will not be known for a couple of years. I think it’s totally disingenuous to pour the praise on Riley or write it down as a successful move until we see how things play out in time.
"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." - Muhammad Ali
Anthony Randolph
I’ve taken Randolph’s skills/potential into careful consideration during his early tenure. While my observations probably differ from yours, I’ve come to some conclusions about the kind of player I think he will be in this league. The main thing about the David Lee trade, is that it immediately upgrades the talent level, politics, and chemistry of your team, which is essential during a time that marks significant change. There is a sense of urgency, that in order for this new ownership to take it’s strongest effect, it must do so by taking less of a gamble in immediate regards to how it performs within the observation of the league for the first 3 years.
David Lee makes everybody on the team better, in some way – Even Monta Ellis. I don’t think Randolph is that kind of player. Right now, he arguably makes players worse, with his complete misunderstanding of the playbook, where to be on offense relative of the ball, and his black hole nature once he receives it. I’m not sure what kind of post game he will develop, but at this point in his career, it appears he’s making a push towards becoming a Durant/Odom kind of player. A perimeter forward.
He seems uncomfortable on the block, both from a talent perspective, and a mentally fueled one. His enjoyment of the game and self depiction as a player, lies heavily on his ability to dribble the ball and slash. I was disenchanted by his fixation on preferring the ball at 16 feet, rather than on the block. His observation and aspiration of his own game, is a bit faulty. I would be a bit more open to thinking he’s able to take on a different mentality, if he were a bit more mature, and humble about his talents. In other words, if he chooses to continue to develop perimeter skills(which by indication he will), then I’m not confident in his ability to be a true superstar. He will make plays on both ends, no doubt, but he wouldn’t be the player he could be, and that player would (if everything worked out accordingly) be better than David Lee, almost without a doubt.
Again, in hindsight, if he prefers to be a perimeter forward (Amare for the max, at the 4 would also support this notion) I’m not confident he would be any better than your above average SF. His shot blocking and rebounding would obviously set him above his peers in those categories, but as far as his potential as an offensive force, we’re looking at shooting, ball handling, and passing – Skills I think many small forwards would have him beat. Sure, he creates a mismatch, but what good is a mismatch if you’re not particularly masterful at any of these things. Not to mention, his perimeter on ball defense does not look very strong, and I think the mismatch he creates on the other end would cancel itself out in this respect. At a lanky 7 feet, it’s unlikely he’ll be able to keep up with prototypical wings. He’s athletic for his size, but even the most athletic players of his height would struggle against the more mobile players 6’5 – 6’8 out there.
When Randolph says things like “I want to be one of the best to ever play the game.” While I admire his confidence, his self image as a player can also be a hindrance. If he’s fixed on being “one of the greatest of all times” as a SF/perimeter 4, I think he’s in danger of becoming a career volume scorer. His personality + this ingredient, is not something I’d look forward to. If he does in fact improve to be in the all-star conversation some day, (whenever that may be) I suspect it won’t be as a player free of some pretty glaring flaws.
I am not too confident in his leadership skills. I’ve been extremely discouraged with his body language at times. I’ve seen players bust him out on the sideline during timeouts for making very dumb mistakes, and have watched him exit the game mentally, after moments like that. Well, he’s young, right? Sure, but then again, there are players his exact age who show mountains of maturity by comparison. He’s not a natural leader. David Lee is a natural leader, both vocally, and by example. All-star players who share his hustle along with his annual income, are few and far between.
Again, I would be much higher on Anthony if I he would show me some semblance of a post game. Well this can be taught and developed, right? Sure, but you have to consider the scale on which to expect such improvements. I don’t see any natural ability at all in the post. I rarely have seen him make a move towards the basket and use his pivot to go to one side, and come back the other. Not a lot of creativity. A lot of stubborn, athletically spurred, pissing contests. I noticed he’d much rather prefer to go away from the basket and shoot a fade-away jump shot. Also, I’m not impressed with his touch around the basket. These are skills that come a bit more naturally, and it’s not like he’s 16 years old. I’ve seen him miss many point blank shots, and I’ve often seen him misread the defense in coordination to finding an opening to get off a high percentage shot. I don’t like his instincts on the block.
I’m not sure how much better Randolph will be than Lee, and like you said, it’s uncertain to know if he can even be as good as Lee. Riley’s genius lies more in the realm of his ability to construct a lineup that theoretically fits twice as well as the one we had last year, while he managed to do this in such short time’s notice. He’s shown initiative, and ambition is a trait found in all great men.
We will not know for a couple of years who got the better end of that trade. But that’s sort of the whole point. Even if Randolph does turn out to be an awesome superstar(which for the above reasons, I think he will not), David Lee is not a bad consolation prize, especially given the nature of his role within the confines of the designed roster.
by lilboots on Sep 3, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
Ok. Please stop pontificating.
Damn. You like to type those keys don’t u. I think you need to slow down a bit though and think things through. I mean really:
We will not know for a couple of years who got the better end of that trade. But that’s sort of the whole point. Even if Randolph does turn out to be an awesome superstar(which for the above reasons, I think he will not), David Lee is not a bad consolation prize, especially given the nature of his role within the confines of the designed roster.
No. If Randolph blows up and becomes a superstar then f… no David Lee will not make a good consolation prize. What the hell do you even mean by “that’s the whole point.” That makes no sense. I don’t want a freaking consolation prize for making a stupid trade. I don’t want Joe Barry Carrol to make me feel better for losing Parish & McHale.
I am not going to waste my time typing away to say why I think your assessment of Randolph has holes and why i think it’s weird and a bit creepy that you psychoanalyze a 20 year old with such scrutiny. Because what it all comes down to is a waiting game.
And my whole point is that anyone with integrity has to acknowledge that the truth, which you seem so confident in, will not be known about this trade until father time has given us the gift of reflection.
And please let’s hold off on the genius title for sir Riley until this team has actually won some games.
"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." - Muhammad Ali
whatever...
what to do about a poor sap with homer blinders…
"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." - Muhammad Ali
Ah hell, I'll bite.
Damn. You like to type those keys don’t u. I think you need to slow down a bit though and think things through.
A bit rude, but it’s all good I guess. I type a lot to show what you’ve accused me of not doing – thinking things through. While it may seem to you like I’m dreaming up these things as I’m going along, I’ve actually been thinking about them for months. These are assessments based on Randolph’s play during the season, months ago. If you have a problem with reading that’s quite a separate issue, isn’t it?
No. If Randolph blows up and becomes a superstar then f… no David Lee will not make a good consolation prize. What the hell do you even mean by "that’s the whole point." That makes no sense. I don’t want a freaking consolation prize for making a stupid trade. I don’t want Joe Barry Carrol to make me feel better for losing Parish & McHale.
Firstly, kind of a dumb comparison, for many reasons, namely your own – we’ll have to wait and see. Staying with that, by what reasoning do you think Randolph will become a great player? I’m curious to know(not sure why I am) why you think this.
When I mention “my whole point”, I’m directly referring to the fact that during those years(however many there may be) where Randolph will be improving, we already have a vastly better player. David Lee is so much better than Randolph is right now. If Randolph becomes a “superstar”, I’m not sure how much better he will be than Lee, in actuality. A competent reader can hone in on simple words like “consolation prize” and assign them to simple tongue and cheek in context to the grander point I was making. But you’re not from that school.
I am not going to waste my time typing away to say why I think your assessment of Randolph has holes and why i think it’s weird and a bit creepy that you psychoanalyze a 20 year old with such scrutiny. Because what it all comes down to is a waiting game.
You mean, “waste your time” as in coming up with a competent argument to support the crap your spewing? Then you’re better off not saying anything, really. I wish you would waste your time, and write me something constructive. Show me your above the mongoloid mentality of “go F yourself” when someone happens to disagree with you.
While you think it’s weird that I’m psychoanalyzing Randolph, and I’m being “creepy” about doubting certain areas of his game…Well, I guess you can say that I’m not down with paying a 22-23 year old, unproven wing/PF whatever he is, a big contract to keep him around, and cross my fingers while praying to god that he improves. There are some obvious red flags in his personality that I’ve watched first hand unravel on the court, and I can’t help but assume this may prolong his development even further. It’s a calculated guess based on facts.
In an entirely separate sense, yeah, God’s the only source of pontification worthwhile. We can say this about everything. What’s the fun in that? Let’s just regurgitate the past and talk about last season instead. Would you prefer to talk about Anthony Tolliver instead of David Lee? Randolph requires an investment, as his contract will be up soon. Given his latest performances, I’m assuming based on previous evaluations of many players in the past, that he won’t be anywhere near the kind of player he “can” be, when the time comes to pay him. His personality adds negative momentum to this. See, when you invest in a player, it’s not peanuts you’re paying him. If you want to give AR 4 yrs. at 36 million, while in all likelihood it’ll take at least 3 of those 4 years for him start really showing you what he’s worth, I think it’s a bit of a bad investment.
It’s very simple. When you say it makes “no sense”, I’m not sure how I can possibly begin to enlighten you. Nowhere did I say, I’m absolutely certain, and what I say is true because I know all! That’s been your interpretation for some reason. I’m simply giving reasons why I think it was a good trade for us, and how Lee helps the team in many areas.
You’re basically responding to my analysis by saying, “No, you’re dumb”, without providing any remedy. This makes you look stupid. It’s okay, I didn’t screw your girlfriend. You can disagree with me, but in the future, don’t be such a tough guy(lol) and try to show a little restrain from being rude when you talk to me, if you want to disagree and have an intelligent conversation about things. I generally offer everyone respect initially until they disrespect me. Let’s keep it civil, eh?
by lilboots on Sep 3, 2010 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 6 recs
rec'd for "Talk to the hand"-iness
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by the way
Solid logic and analys on AR. Now stop being such a creeper! (j/k)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
In an entirely separate sense, yeah, God’s the only source of pontification worthwhile. We can say this about everything
Check out Hawking’s latest thinkings on this subject.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 3, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
haha saw that actually
The man’s a genius! Although, I don’t think I could ever denounce God so blatantly(just me), I might end up paralyzed in a wheelchair or something…just saying…
The man’s a genius!
The way I look at it is this guy has a lot more time to think about things without the distraction of chasing women so I gotta respect his opinion.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 3, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions
For some reason, I immediately thought of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgTtHI_T7sw
Monta Ellis's #1 Fan!!!
I honestly am not sure Stephen Hawkings view of God is anything remotely resembling a normal person’s view of God. It’s almost like he’s talking about an entirely different subject….
by Missing Barry on Sep 4, 2010 7:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh we have long left the land of civility...
My whole point, which you graciously conceded already:
We will not know for a couple of years who got the better end of that trade.
Is that you can spew all the crack analysis you want but until we are a couple years out, nobody can properly assess this trade.
I’ll concede that I made that point with not a small amount of ire, but i thought it necessary due to the lack of humility in your assessment. I’m not so full of myself that I can’t admit that this might turn out to be a good trade for this team. All I was asking is that you bring a little integrity to the table and admit that despite your best insights, which you believed worth writing a novella about, you could be terribly wrong. And if Randolph blows up, it will be a terrible thing indeed for this team. Does it really matter why I think he has superstar potential? I saw flashes of skill & intensity that were inspiring. You build teams around superstars. Lee is many things but he is not a superstar and never will be. If we let one go because we were to impatient then I don’t think Riley will be looked back on in such a flattering way
Your tirade above is pitiful. Straw men knocked down left and right but nothing of any substance to be found.
Proof in point:
You’re basically responding to my analysis by saying, "No, you’re dumb", without providing any remedy.
Excuse me, I believe these are my words:
And my whole point is that anyone with integrity has to acknowledge that the truth, which you seem so confident in, will not be known about this trade until father time has given us the gift of reflection.
Seems like I offered you a remedy and it seems like I had a consistent critique throughout: Let’s give it some time before making any grand decelerations. I’m not saying you shouldn’t make the argument. I’m just saying that without acknowledging that very big caveat you’ve got nothing but tired hyperbole.
"To be a great champion you must believe you are the best. If you're not, pretend you are." - Muhammad Ali
Is that you can spew all the crack analysis you want but until we are a couple years out, nobody can properly assess this trade.
We’re a better team today than we were before the trade. That’s a short, and valid analysis. What may/may not come to pass is irrelevant until it comes to pass. I value David Lee’s immediate presence, more than Randolph’s potential (and the cost to see his potential) down the line. Sure, I don’t know how good Randolph will be. It’s hard for anybody to say. I’ve seen flashes of his play that have impressed me as well. I just really, really, don’t believe he’s ever going to be a superstar. If he does, I also have a feeling, it will be from the average fan boy’s perspective.
I could be wrong, and that usually goes without saying. People have opinions, and I based mine off of particular things I’ve watched and reflected on. All I know for a fact, is that our team is better right now.
I don’t feel I made any statements that lacked humility. I didn’t say I’m without a doubt, correct. I didn’t say you’re stupid if you disagree with me. I simply stated my opinion and tried to give reason as to why I’ve taken that stance. That’s not a lack of humility, man, it’s just stating what your opinion is – something everybody on this site does every day.
You came in all huffy acting like I was trying to repaint the Mona Lisa or something. It’s okay. We interpret the truth differently. As of things stand right now, we’re better. What may come to pass down the line, will. At this point, I believe in David Lee more than Anthony Randolph. I don’t see how you can knock me if that’s my opinion. Just let me be. It’s never too late to return to civility. Unless you want to fight about it, but c’mon. It’s the internet and we’re grown men (assuming you are), we can have our differences without being rude.
Is that you can spew all the crack analysis you want but until we are a couple years out, nobody can properly assess this trade.
I don’t know if this is true.
For example, let’s say the Warriors win 50+ games this year, with Lee and Curry leading the offense, moving our team’s baseline to a team that has a home-court advantage in the first round.
(I admit that this is optimistic, but it’s actually not terribly unreasonable).
Say Randolph limps along for two more seasons before turning into a monster, a player one step below that top tier of Lebron/Wade/Paul etc. Basically, Amare + rebounding.
Well, would you rather have six years of David Lee getting us into the second round, or two more years of sucking followed by a ONE YEAR chance at a finals run?
Because it would only be one year: Randolph is only under contract for three more years. Who he becomes after that is irrelevant to this trade. We don’t know if the CBA will give home teams an advantage is resigning their players. We don’t know if he’ll jump to the biggest available market, or what.
So when talking about this trade, you can’t just talk about the potential of the players. (And I think it’s very unlikely that Randolph will ever be as good as Lee is right now, but I’ll concede that for the sake of argument). You have to talk about the potential of the players for the period you have them under contract. So if you’re talking about evaluating Randolph in two+ years, you’re talking about the player we’ll have for one season.
Vs. David Lee for six.
It is almost impossible for a player to be so good that you’d rather have him for one year rather than David Lee for six. The list of players on that list is a short list of the greatest players of all time (of the players I’ve watched live, only Magic, Jordan, Bird, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, maybe Hakeem, Lebron, and Walton. Odds of Randolph eventually being that good: approximately 0%. Heck, unless he shows a lot of it this season, freed from Nellie’s doghouse, I’d say the odds of him reaching that PIppen-Mailman-Barkley level are almost zero).
So you don’t really have to wait to evaluate this deal. Chances are we’ll know in the next six months – because it’s not ultimately about how good Randolph gets.
by Ronaldinho on Sep 4, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Say Randolph limps along for two more seasons before turning into a monster, a player one step below that top tier of Lebron/Wade/Paul etc. Basically, Amare + rebounding.
And what if the “monster” AR is on another team? If NYK trades AR, does that make it a failure for them and an instant win for the Warriors?
As with a lot of trades, it’s usually a trade off for NOW vs. LATER. To compare that is kind of pointless. As Warrior fans, we can only really be concerned about our situation. So if Randolph sucks or becomes good is really irrelevant. His performance is cultivated within the context of his situation. In other words, if he becomes good, it’s because he’s in a situation that allowed him to be good. The Warriors probably were not that situation on the virtue of him being traded.
"the world is not your trade machine" - wallywagon11
by Doctor Kajita on Sep 4, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Ronaldinho, I was just elaborating on your point, not arguing it, FYI
"the world is not your trade machine" - wallywagon11
by Doctor Kajita on Sep 4, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow and I thought I was a jerk
Hope that was short enough for you
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
caligula
you got 2 recs from me
Over The Line!
by Lat We N Trash on Sep 4, 2010 4:32 AM PDT up reply actions
:)
so i was first?
Caligula was probably most impressive move what i’ve seen when i was 14 -BTW still in my top20
Over The Line!
by Lat We N Trash on Sep 5, 2010 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Hahaha, you were.
Although it’s not the best movie for 14 year olds :O, I thought it was pretty good. McDowell’s performance was impressive as it was in A Clockwork Orange and the movie “If…”(not many have seen it)
I thought the editing leaved a bit to be desired, and since it was actually funded by Penthouse, the gratuitous sex scenes seemed to drag on a bit longer than necessary. Although, they did give you a good dose of the feeling of tremendous excess that was so popular during that time, in that corner of the world.
I read the biography of Caligula before I ever saw the film. His method of madness is truly fascinating and frightening. I can’t imagine the terror I would feel if Obama was remotely close to being that insane. On a smaller scale, I’m intrigued with insanity. I’m sort of a twisted bastard, I guess. For those of you who have not seen it, I highly recommend the HBO series, “Rome”. You’ll be surprised how acceptable cruelty was back then, and incidentally, I found the politics engrossing. Very well acted.
it’s not the best movie for 14 year olds
probably -but for me it was first movie which really amazed me (it was unrated version BTW:)
McDowell was brilliant though i can’t compare his perfomance with Clockwork Orange -not a big fan of this movie (IMO compared to book film is way more concentrated to decorative costumes and violence than message what Anthony Burgess tried to give -BTW CO is only book what i’ve read in 3 languages)
I read the biography of Caligula before I ever saw the film. His method of madness is truly fascinating and frighteningif you like movies or stories about mad people in charge i suggest you russian film Tsar about Ivan the Terrible -while story may seem flat acting is what makes this movie really special
You’ll be surprised how acceptable cruelty was back then
most likely not :) humanity is pretty new thing to human kind and also even today it’s not universal value
BTW thanks for idea -now If is next in my download list
Over The Line!
by Lat We N Trash on Sep 5, 2010 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions
reading Clockwork Orange in three languages
should qualify you as the Most Literate Contributor on this site. Burgess loves tweaking the language in his narrative voices and Clockwork Orange along with Nothing Like the Sun (set in Shakespeare’s milieu approximating the language of its time) are both wonderfully evocative. You got to enjoy the work of the translators grappling with his idiom in Clockwork Orange.
You’re absolutely right that we’ve made only limited progress along the road to compassionate humanity; certainly there are more economically advanced nation-states with legal institutions based on individual rights and a degree of egalitarianism now, compared to the first century b.c.e., but we citizens of those rich nations have thick insulation, and don’t have to daily confront the cruelties of life that still define survival for many others. We get all the conveniences of consumer goods and technology and don’t have to consider the sweatshops, poverty, or pollution that make those things readily accessible to us. In Rome back then, the privileged class had fewer constraints, but likely had a clearer notion of the toil and blood supporting their place on the pyramid.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
Thanks
I heard about the film “Tsar” a long time ago. I completely forgot about it. I’ll make a stop to Rasputin’s in San Leandro (Best movie store ever) and pick it up. I don’t mind a flat story line as long as the many elements there are in terms of making a great film are distinct enough. Acting goes a long way.
I just read a Clockwork Orange for the first time last year. It is better than the movie. Kubrick is my favorite director though, and I love everything he’s done.
Criticker.com is a great site for finding new stuff. How it works is, you spend a little time ranking your favorite and least favorite films by assigning them a score 1-100. Based on these scores, the system compares your tastes to other members, whose rankings are entirely available, thus turning you on to new movies you’ve never heard of.
In other words, if somebody ranks “Caligula” and “There be blood” similar to your, the chances are, you’re really going to find some good stuff in their rankings from 75-100 that you’ve never heard of. Give it a try! If you do, I’m “jswinder” member. We can compare recommendations and talk film some time.
. For those of you who have not seen it, I highly recommend the HBO series, "Rome". You’ll be surprised how acceptable cruelty was back then, and incidentally, I found the politics engrossing.
I found Polly Walker engrossing.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 5, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
What everyone overlooks concerning Randolph ...
Well, I guess you can say that I’m not down with paying a 22-23 year old, unproven wing/PF whatever he is, a big contract to keep him around
Warriors don’t have Randolph to some type of lifetime contract. The big question is whether Randolph can reach his potential BEFORE his contract expires. Also, how do we even know that Randolph will want to sign with the Warriors.
I’m really thinking the fans believe that their hope/admiration w/ Randolph is working both ways. The idea that Warriors will hold him & develop him will NOT guarantee him wanting to resign here.
Lee is an all-star PF who is locked into a long-term contract w/ the Warriors. Much better than a potential player who is unlikely to reach his potential before his current contract expires.
Dubs Wise....This is the best post I have read in some time
I completely agree that before we give Riley the title of genius maybe we should at least see the team play a couple of games. We have no clue how this team is going to play together. Also your point on the waiting game is right on. If Randolph has a big year, Greg Monroe has a good year in Detroit, and the Warriors win 33 games. Riley may not look as smart and this could be the offseason us Warriors fans are still complaining about years from now.
The “best post you have read in some time” consists of cussing, a totally cheap shot at a poster for (effectively) putting too much thought and effort into his post, and almost nothing of actual substance?
Yes, if Monroe and Randolph blow up, we’ll be unhappy with this offseason. If they don’t, Lee continues to do his thing, DWright blossoms, and Udoh shows something in the second half, we’ll be happier with it. That’s kind of how predicting things works. Lil boots never said or implied that his thoughts were the gospel. You really think Dubs Wise’s unpleasant tone was called for?
There will be no extra point!
Sorry but I didn’t read much into the tone; it probably was a little extreme. I just thought his two main points were spot on. 1) While the Warriors have made a lot of moves this offseason to shape the roster we won’t know how good they were until they start playing so it is a little early for the Riley praise. If they win 45 games this year, I will be very happy with this offseason. 2) I liked the Joe Barry Carroll trade comparison. Should the Warriors be happy that Joe Barry put up really good numbers and made an all-star team or be upset that they gave up two hall of fame players in the process. My take on his point is that if Lee plays well but Randolph next season is better than it was a bad trade even if Lee plays well.
I just think us Warriors fans are getting ahead of ourselves on thinking how much Riley outsmarted the Knicks. If I look at Donnie Walsh’s resume it indicates he is one of the best President’s/GM’s in the league. Larry Riley’s resume says he is a good assistant coach. I hope Riley made a good trade but I am going to wait and watch.
apologize
Maybe I went to far into calling Riley’s work so far, “ingenious”. Looking back now, and seeing that after I wrote that, I said that I “agree” with what he’s been doing, I think maybe some people misread that as me saying, “I too, am genius.”
Well, I’m an amateur. I’ll be the first to admit that, no problem.
The thing that does encourage me about Riley, is that he has a coherent vision – Something this franchise has lacked for years. I’ve never seen any semblance of a plan for as long as I’ve been a fan. I think Mullin was onto something with the whole Baron thing, but that all fell apart soon enough.
I do stick to my guns though in calling Riley’s moves ingenious, maybe not in the sense that they are fool-proof, but he actually has a plan, and he’s actually landed the players he was after. That to me, is reason enough to like what he’s done. Not many GM’s of recent past have been able to actually target a player, and bring him to the team. Certainly not an all-star. Baron was the closest thing we had to that recently, and even that was a high-risk deal.
In all fairness to Randolph, I think he’s a rare player with great talent. I just think he doesn’t know much about the game of basketball yet. I thought it was clear last season, that he was a bit lost on both offense and defense, and he didn’t particularly come correct when he had the ball. I’m just saying, he’s got a lot to learn. This game takes awhile to learn the ins and the outs, it’s not easy. It will take some time for him to get where he wants to be. In the meantime, he’s going to need a big contract to allow you to see these things from him.
I thought you made some good points
I definelty agree on it is great to see some sort of plan. I do agree that David Lee’s past performance should really help to bring Monta back in line into being more of a team player like he had with Baron. Lee can be a leader where obviously Randolph was in no position to do this. I just think the knocking Randolph now that he is gone thing is a little premature and unfair. I always thought it was too bad that he got injured on a freak play because he was starting to play some good basketball.
My one knock on Riley and it is probably something I need to get past is the thing that both Marcus T and Rusty S bring up from time to time on Riley. His qualifications didn’t warrent the job. He couldn’t have gotten an interview for a GM opening with the other teams. He got the job because he was close with Nelson and he was willing to work for way under scale. Plus he seemed like he did exactly what Rowell wanted. This being said I think he is a nice guy and pretty good scout. I didn’t care for this years draft pick but I like most of the other moves he made. My main concern with Riley is I am not sure he really has a good understanding of the salary cap. Mullin had an assistant who was an expert in this area but unfortunatly Rowell fired the guy. Hopefully with new ownership Riley can fill that position.
Knocking Randolph
Wasn’t my intention. I just see him working more towards being a perimeter player, judging by his preferences on the basketball court. If he continues to do this, I’m not sure how great he’s really going to become as a star.
Off topic, but I wish someday we could trade Ellis for Goran Dragic and Robin Lopez. It’d be a nice deal, one Phoenix would probably never make..
Too be honest, I haven’t seen Lee play much but doesn’t he score most of his points facing the basketball from 10-15 feet. I don’t think he has much of a post up game like a Boozer? I guess if he is scoring 20 points a game they must be going in. I had heard Nelson say a couple of times that he wanted Randolph taking those jump shots to try to pull the center or power forward out of the lane. That being said I agree that I don’t think Randolph has much of an inside game other than offensive rebound put backs.
I like Dragic but I think if the Warriors are going to get any real value for Monta then Memphis is probably the best spot. He is popular in the area and could help them sell tickets. I would like something X Henry, Thabeet, and Conley. Conley hasn’t done much but he is still young. Thabeet looks like a bust but can still be a decent defensive player for 12-15 minutes a night.
He's a position guy
who understands the game, and he’s often in great position to score. He catches everything. He’s got some of the best hands in the league at that position. He is truly ambidextrous in the most honest sense, and this makes him an extremely talented finisher, also one of the best in the league. Combine these two aspects of his game with his strong and agile body, and you’ve got a player who understands where he needs to be, can get to where he needs to be because of his physicality/athleticism, and then capitalizes by being able to snatch the ball up in stride and softly put it in with either hand.
He also shoots a lot of foul shots as he’s very clever around the rim with fakes. He can pivot and fake a shot left, then come back around the right side and wrap it in, or he can do it the opposite way with his left. There’s just a lot of ways he can beat you once he gets in that sweet territory around the rim because he’s a two-hand player. He’s smart enough to catch the D out of position, and strong enough not to allow them to bully him out once he’s got them with their pants down.
Plus he’s got a nice quick release on his jump shot. He puts arc on it and it falls with consistency. He was crafted for the pick and roll. He’s an energizer bunny who never, never stops moving, and once he catches it, he doesn’t like taking many dribbles to score. He’s either putting up the shot, or making the pass. The ball can be in and out of his hands in the blink of an eye. He’s got some soft ones.
My one knock on Riley and it is probably something I need to get past is the thing that both Marcus T and Rusty S bring up from time to time on Riley. His qualifications didn’t warrent the job. He couldn’t have gotten an interview for a GM opening with the other teams. He got the job because he was close with Nelson and he was willing to work for way under scale.
This is true. On the other hand, sooner or later everyone gets their break when they get “their shot” to show what they’re capable of. A lot of famous people throughout history would’ve died with just a name on their gravestone if someone didn’t have a little a faith in them. I don’t necessarily care how you got here – just thrill me and thrill me.
Plus he seemed like he did exactly what Rowell wanted. This being said I think he is a nice guy and pretty good scout. I didn’t care for this years draft pick but I like most of the other moves he made. My main concern with Riley is I am not sure he really has a good understanding of the salary cap.
I’m not sure what you mean about the Rowell thing. I admit, I didn’t like the Belinelli trade. At the time, the Jamal Crawford deal seemed a bit generous as well. Many people jumped to the conclusion that this was coming from Cohan and through Rowell, to spare a little coin at the expense of talent. I’m not sure this is true.
As far as Riley’s understanding of the cap, I have not seen any reason yet for substantial concern. He’s been conservative. He didn’t go “Troy Hudson” on Jannero Pargo, he truly underpaid to get Dorell Wright, and the Lee signing was right on track, in my opinion. It’s a 2 1/2 mil difference from Monta’s contract, and I value Lee a lot higher than Ellis. Mullin’s expert appeared less frugal in this regard.
The main thing about Riley, that’s important for a GM, is that people listen when he talks. When Mullin spoke, nobody was shooing him off the phone. People listened out of respect. Reputation goes a long way in business, and although he was a legendary player rather than a GM, I felt secure enough as a fan because he was a capable man.
Riley doesn’t have that rep as a player, obviously, but people around the league know his face, know his name. He knows how to talk to people in the business. Being around guys like Nelson, and many other coaches/assistants/players/owners/GM’s over all those years, he’s learned from each of those individual experiences, and he’s now received a chance to put them into application. I’d take someone who’s never got a shot at GM but has been around the league 40+ years, over some young hot shot who’s good with a stat book and can sling a briefcase around.
I know that sounds biased, but I like experience when it comes to stuff like that.
Nah, waiting and using hindsight to judge a trade isn’t fair. A GM has to make a decision based on what he knew at the time, so the question is – when we traded Randolph for Lee, who was the better bet? Just judging results in small sample sizes (like one trade) will be giving wayyyyy too much credit to luck.
by Missing Barry on Sep 4, 2010 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Right, well what about his defense? He is not a shot blocker. However, he’s not a bad defender in the post, as in his footwork, his strength to hold position, his ability to neutralize an opponent’s positioning for rebounds, his durability (81 games last year), and lastly, his will to confiscate the ball via the defensive glass.
What are David’s Lee’s defensive numbers for when he has played PF (well aware he didn’t start at C last year)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Optimisim is in the air. Its good to see people are starting to have high hopes for this team. I said from the beginning i have faith in Larry Riley. He addressed our two biggest issues this offseason bringing in Lee Udoh and Wright. We lost most games because we was out-rebounded and out-scored. Besides the Lakers,Bulls,Magic,Celtics, Grizzlies I dont see any other team outrebounding our starters.
I would replace Bulls with the Rockets, they have a better tandum in Scola, Yao, and Brad Miller
by myk on Sep 3, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
If Yao can play all-season maybe ....
I’m really doubting Yao can play a full season w/ all these injuries he’s been piling up. Also, read that he’s pondering retirement if he has any more major injuries. His career could be coming to an end.
"we lost most games because we was out-rebounded and out-scored."
I think every loss can be attributed to the fact that we were out-scored. That is one glaring consistency in our losses. Ever.
by Uwe Blog on Sep 4, 2010 3:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
“They can kick a field goal and get 3 points, or they can go for a touchdown to get 6”
Carmelo Shmarmelo
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 4, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Cant see any reason Lee wont make the allstar game this year. I dont think Blake Griffin will put up better numbers. And based on his skin color he’ll get more votes than Zach and Al Jefferson even if they put up the same numbers.
And hopefully voters will realize the importance of things like efficiency and passing? Nah…..
by Missing Barry on Sep 4, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Great write up!!
I truly believe this post. It is not far-fetched at all to believe in this scenario.
At the end of the day it is our opinions and predictions that we are putting forth. It seem very strange to me for Dubs Wise to blow out of no where with a over the top attack in a personal way when he sees something that he disagrees with as if he has a personal relationship with AR/Riley poisened his dog or something and that devil poster lilboots is praising the enemy. No problem with disagreement of course but that kind reaction is downright strange.
Also sorry Dubs Wise but if we have to wait 2 or 3 years later before making comment it would kind of dull only talking about the past…dont you think?
by Only In Fairfax on Sep 3, 2010 10:31 PM PDT reply actions
Warriors will improve by a lot
Very few teams in the league will be able to consistently out-rebound the Warriors. The rebounding edge is a major improvement from last year. 20+ rebounds from C & PF positions combined is realistic.
With Lee & improved Curry to start the year, I’m really believing Monta will be more in-control & disciplined because there’s other talented scorers on the floor.
Athletic & solid defender @ the 3 … I’m thinking this team will really surprise people with their success & make the playoffs.
Especially since we were arguably the worst rebounding team in NBA history last year. That improvement is going to make a huge difference in winning basketball games….
by Missing Barry on Sep 4, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Could you sum up what you said in this post? It was very confusing-to me atleast.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 4, 2010 12:57 PM PDT reply actions
Great read. Rec! I think
we are in great shape with a Dorell/Lee/Andris frontline. All are great rebounders and should really compliment each other well when you think about it. Andris Biedrins and Dorell Wright are more off the ball pffensive players. Curry will have the ball alot as our PG and Lee will have the ball alot at the High post area. It really balnces out our starting 5 because Monta can be on the ball to let Curry go off the ball for spot up 3’s or Monta can get out and get back to be the 1 man fast break.
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Owner: Joe Lacob, Peter Guber
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Over 1,000 wins online with GSW in 2K10
..............SC30..............
Though I am certainly suffering from the bias where you overrate the event that happened recently (forgot what it was called, high school psychology was a long while ago), this is the best piece I have ever read on this site. You have me legitimately excited, sold on the Lee trade, sold on Larry Riley, and convinced that Monta and Biedrins are going to return to form.
I don’t know how you did it, because I believed none of these things fifteen minutes ago, and I probably won’t believe them tomorrow. But I truly appreciate the optimistic angle you’ve taken.
My main concern about the Lee trade is that I have heard he is one of the worst defenders in the league. I’ve never paid attention to his defense, so I cannot rely on such a subjective evaluation, but it definitely worries me. You seem to believe otherwise, which is comforting, because you seem to know more about Lee than I do.
Forget little boots, the next great FanPost has some big shoes to fill.
It's flattering,
I wasn’t trying to set any bar..kind of embarrassing. I think the recent grumblings of Lee’s defense, quietly(somewhat ignorantly) coincide with his manning a position he has no business playing. D’Antoni likes to run, and his installment of Lee at center has definitely had it’s downfalls. That becomes more tolerable as we learn to accept that this is not entirely all on David Lee.
If you’re D’Antoni, it’s sort of like putting Tolliver against Yao, and then once Tolliver gets owned, calling a timeout and pulling him by the jersey over to the sideline and spitting in his face while screaming, “Why the hell didn’t you stop him you dumb little $#%^?! What, you think Curry’s gonna do it!!??”.
While playing Lee(An avg to below avg defensive player) against average centers, he’s still going to look bad, because these men usually have 20-40 lbs. and 3-4 inches on him, and they’re always going to have that natural advantage going for them, no matter how their skills match up, and no matter who’s having the better night. Playing him against superior offensive players of this size difference is just a recipe for disaster. It’s not easy to make a proper assessment of Lee’s defensive improvement, as he’s been playing the better of the last two seasons out of position, since he was 24 yrs. old. Defense is something that can be improved as long as you’re athletic, because it is largely based on awareness and a competitive mentality.
I’ve recently read some scouting reports that were written about Lee during his years in Florida. You wouldn’t believe how far he’s come in improving his game. It’s dumbfounding. Anyways, I would be concerned about Lee, but I wouldn’t go far in your worries. Go ask your grandfather to do a back flip. When he tries, and fails, go tell everybody he sucks at doing back flips.
Look how big Brooke Lopez looks compared to David Lee.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN3LAdPU8bw
You can download Knicks games at http://bt.davka.info/
this is the best piece I have ever read on this site.
haha, and that might be the best sarcasm?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 4, 2010 11:35 PM PDT reply actions
J. Cole fan, huh? Good taste
haha, you are the master
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 5, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
Old school!
"Monta is the MAN." -Bob Fitzgerald
by WarriorForLife on Sep 7, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions
A B and Lee
At first glance I’m not certain that the combination will work.
Lee does his best work in the lane, the same place Biedrins will be sitting. This is the first year that Lee has shown a jumpshot and still likes to work more around the basket. I’ve said that the W’s need a backup center that can shot from 15-25 feet to allow Lee to roam down low.
Unless Biedrins is working on a 15 footer the two together is a large gamble.
That’s not even taking into consideration that this is a comeback year for Biedrins, who until we see better he is a 5pt 8 rd player.
What I like about Biedrins is the way he moves without the ball and catches. I think that should work great with Lee. A lot of big guys, sure, you need spacing so they aren’t clogging the lane, but with Lee’s passing and Biedrins basketball IQ/hands, I think it should work well having the two of them running a 2 man game, or one of them running a pick and roll with Curry while the other moves without the ball. They both have a nice assortment of offensive skills that gives an offense plenty of options to utilize them.
by Missing Barry on Sep 6, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Biedrins offense skills ?
You start with a double post, which turns into a high post and a low post, what does Biedrins do when he’s the high post? with no threat of a jumpshot the zone packs it down low clogs the middle and stops the movement. This eliminates pick and roll, stops Ellis from flying into the lane and leaves it for Curry to save them with the 3 .At least this is what I’m afraid will happen.
How often does Biedrins need to get the ball in the high post? In the event he does, he’s got nice driving and passing skills for a big man. Think of him (offensively speaking) as Dwight Howard, or a rich man’s Ben Wallace or Rodman. Somehow those guys’ teams were/are able to create proper spacing on offense. You’ve been watching the Warriors the past 4-5 years, right? During that time, how many times have you remarked upon AB clogging up the offense?
There will be no extra point!
During that time, how many times have you remarked upon AB clogging up the offense?
Not as many as the times I’ve yelled at him to get in there and post up like a real big man and stop hanging out on the perimeter setting screens for little guards.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 8, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Biedrins, high post
All of the players you named were at one time best defender or rebounder in league.
Howard has Lewis at power forward, a jumpshooter.B.Wallace had R. Wallace at PF a jumpshooter. Rodman wasn’t a center, didn’t play in the post.
What bigtime post player has played with Biedrins?
All of the players you named were at one time best defender or rebounder in league.
Defense and defensive rebounding aren’t material to your argument, but fwiw: Biedrins has generally been Top 5.
Howard has Lewis at power forward, a jumpshooter.B.Wallace had R. Wallace at PF a jumpshooter.
Lee’s not strictly a “jumpshooter” but he is pretty deadly from 14-16 ft. All you need to forestall the “cloggage” you keep whining about is one guy who can consistently knock down the J from 15. Think Rodman and Longley, or McHale and Parish, or Bynum and Gasol, or Duncan and Robinson, or Otis Smith and Hakeem, or Garnett and Perkins, etc. etc.
What bigtime post player has played with Biedrins?
None. That’s why a lot of fans are so excited about the prospect of a Lee/Biedrins tandem.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Sep 9, 2010 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
what does Biedrins do when he’s the high post?
There are a huge amount of possibilities.
with no threat of a jumpshot the zone packs it down low clogs the middle and stops the movement
Absolutely not true, you just have to use a little bit of imagination. Basketball isn’t a static game where people just stand around. Some options include: running Curry and/or Monta off a Biedrins screen. If Biedrins man is clogging the middle, and Biedrins sets a screen, all of a sudden we get Monta and/or Curry open. Their man trails the screen, and the curl it for an open 10 foot jumper. Their man goes under, and they flare for a 3. Next, Biedrins is a good passer from the high post. Especially if his man clogs the middle, it opens up all sorts of passing lanes. Like a flex cut, for instance. Or Dorrell sets a screen for Curry in the weakside corner, and Biedrins has both of them as options. If Biedrins man is too worried about the cutter or screener, Biedrins can fake the pass and has the skills and quickness to drive from the high post for a dunk. I’ve seen him do it. Or you run an actual dual post game properly, swing the ball, and let Biedrins hit Lee as he seals off his man. Or get into the two man game so the defense gets set with Biedrins man clogging the middle, and throw it out to Curry and run a quick pick and roll with Biedrins, who’s at the high post, before the defense can set to defend it. There should also be opportunities for Biedrins to cut to the hoop when his man helps off, and with Lee and Curry’s passing skills, that’s a layup or dunk.
Have some creativity, man. Spacing is easy to achieve with guys who have skills and can operate at different places on the floor. Both Biedrins and Lee have skills and athleticism to operate down low or up high effectively. We’re lucky because we have players that fit well together and have a nice rounded assortment of skills. We have guys that know how to pass to hit their teammates when they are open. This offense should work well together, especially with someone like Nellie who really understands offense at the helm (if he actually takes the time to coach, that is)…..
by Missing Barry on Sep 8, 2010 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
Great comment.
I think you’re going to see Biedrins help Curry run the offense on a nightly basis. Biedrins can set a high a screen for Stephen, then Curry can pass it to him while Andris protects it high. Andris can pivot his screen with the ball and allow Curry to cut back to the perimeter. Curry’s defender is now taking a huge risk if he chooses to try to force a turnover, because he’ll be leaving Curry open. It is easier for Stephen to find scoring position without the ball, than with it. He becomes a catch & shoot option in a high screen situation with a passing 7-footer. This is a good thing.
If Curry’s man gets caught up in the screen, and Curry moves towards another perimeter defender’s zone to give himself a protective angle, they will have to step out and Challenge the shot, leaving their man open. Stephen can now make the pass to the vacant shooter who in turn, can hit Andris rolling to the hoop, who in all likelihood would find himself open in this situation as the defense is focused on the ball.
The two man game with Andris and Curry alone, makes Biedrins effective on the perimeter. There are not a lot of centers who can be effective in that kind of situation the way Andris can.
If having two great rebounders guaranteed you a .500 record you think GMs would have figured it out by now.
They haven’t figured out much when it comes to statistical evaluation.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 6, 2010 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Rebounders
who average 10+ a game are not easy to come by. There are very few of them in the league – Even fewer who are adept at impacting the game in other areas.
You would think guys like Paul Millsap would be drafted long before the second round, but GM’s apparently really have not figured it out by now…..
by Missing Barry on Sep 6, 2010 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions
If having two great rebounders guaranteed you a .500 record you think GMs would have figured it out by now.
You would think this if learning was always a rational process. It isn’t. Not all that can be known is known, though to hear the apologists, you’d believe that if the majority of GMs do something it must somehow be the optimal solution. This isn’t always the case.
A part o the problem is that GMs are hired as much on name recognition and who they know as on their actual acumen. There seems to be some thought that playing at a high level conveys some understanding of management and analysis necessary to be a GM. Sometimes it works, but often it doesn’t and you wind up with a “name” who falls the same traps and fallacies that fans do (most often that’s PPG is a good way to award compensation). Mr. Isiah Thomas, I’m looking in your direction.
Dynamics
Great post! But I think the success of the Warriors depends upon Nellie (if he is still here) changing his offensive game plan. In the past he has run the 4’s outside of the paint (see AR and Harrington) and used Dre only on the high screen and roll. This is typical of a “spread the floor” philosophy and is an attempt to accentuate a “matchup” benefit for the 4 position if you have a quick 4 vs. a rebounding or traditional 4. If Nellie can play to his teams strengths instead of consistently adjusting to the other team – then the Warriors have a chance. Otherwise, Lee will be 20 ft away from the basket as the W’s toss up random jumpers from all over the floor.
The C’s, Lakers, Spurs and all of the good teams don’t change their strategy based upon who is in town on any given night. They consistently and confidently play THEIR game night in and night out. If the W’s are going to be successful, then Nellie will have to determine(define) what that strategy will be. Changing your starters and substitution pattern every night does not promote consistency or confidence. Many former players have commented on this.
in summery, I like Lee, Dre and what Riley is attempting to do. the question that remains is what is Nellie going to do?
by luvtocue on Sep 6, 2010 8:45 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
If Nellie can play to his teams strengths instead of consistently adjusting to the other team – then the Warriors have a chance.
Well… that’s an interesting discussion. The past few years, our teams’ strengths have been quicker undersized players on the wings. If you want to play to your strengths, you have to use a “spread the floor” mentality. It was not necessarily adjusting to the other teams’ strengths. Now, we’ve also had terrible big men… outside the offensively limited Andris Biedrins.
The C’s, Lakers, Spurs and all of the good teams don’t change their strategy based upon who is in town on any given night.
You’re putting the horse before the cart here. The C’s Lakers, and Spurs are really good, thus, they have go to strengths which other teams usually have to adjust to. You cannot simply say “hey, our strength is our outside shooting, so we’re going to do that” and expect to win. Basketball doesn’t work that way. Furthermore, the C’s, Lakers, and Spurs do make adjustments… you just don’t notice them because you’re not a C’s, Lakers, or Spurs fan and don’t religiously follow their games. Mostly though, they’ve all got really, really good big men who can dominate their position regardless of what their opponents do.
Changing your starters and substitution pattern every night does not promote consistency or confidence.
I don’t think I want “consistency” if that means consistent losing. Nellie has changed our starters the last few years for four reasons:
1. Players get injured
2. Players get traded
3. Players are whining about getting traded
4. Team performance sucks, so why not shake something up?
I’m not saying that Nellie is some be all end all god of basketball, but this criticism is poorly conceived.
In summary, I like Lee, Dre, and what Riley is attempting to do. The question remains: Are the players who we think they are?
Trust me, learning english isn’t a waste of time. It is actually sort of useful.
-randolphforpresident
by Dubs fan in Boston on Sep 7, 2010 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
You think Randolph and Wright were terrible bigs?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 7, 2010 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions
I think
lovetocue was saying that Don Nelson prefers to tamper with lineups and play his bigs away from the basket, more so than any dilemma dictates. It’s an interesting argument. His(Mullins?) drafting of Randolph, his push to acquire Dirk(great move), his insistence that the offense should go more through Anthony Mason, than Patrick Ewing, all support the former end of this argument.
On the other hand, it is true, our team has constantly fallen victim to injury, disgruntlement, and has dealt for quick, perimeter-based bigs. Again, it’s unclear who was actually in charge of acquiring those players. Was it not Don Nelson who invited and signed Barnes when we already had Pietrus, instead of maybe using that roster spot for a more traditional big to help Andris in the post and on the boards? That seems like a direct move to support Nellie’s preference of running 6-7 guys at the 4, and having a smaller quicker line up. It’s hard to recognize preference vs. reaction when this organization has been hit by tornado after tornado.
I also think lovetocue was making good points about the Boston, LA, SA franchises. While it’s true, their legions are the reason why they dominate the NBA world, they still have a philosophy they use when looking to acquire players. Boston’s defensive ideals, their love of post-up big men, LA’s recent strategy of installing proper players within the triangle – regardless of your roster, you still have a choice of supporting rules you have followed in the past.
Nelson has not changed this rule, even though he has not attained true glory. It signifies that he’s a stubborn coach and that he will not change his philosophy, even if it doesn’t necessarily fit. The problem I have with unconventional line ups, is that they fall victim to teams who revel in a more traditional style. Put Nelson with the wrong roster, and not only will they lose to these traditional teams in the playoffs, but they’ll be mediocre to horrible during the season as well.
In this sense, David Lee may be pressured to step out of his element to play a certain style that is specifically designed by Nelson, that may falter Lee’s production. Nelson’s strategy on defense is to trap players in undesirable positions to cause turnovers, and get out on the break. Not only is this extremely hard to do on a consistent enough basis(especially when you have few defensive players) but it doesn’t win games. But you can get away with it, and come out smelling like a rose if you have tremendous firepower and a few shot blockers to cover up your mishaps. This was the case in Dallas. It’s why Nellie wanted guys like Bradley, Diop, and Dampier clogging up the lane to bail him out.
On the other hand, during his time as a Warriors coach in recent years, he’s played lesser players over younger talented ones, out of stubbornness. In other words, we weren’t winning games anyway. Why not just put Wright in the game? Why not play Anthony? A lot of that was specifically Don Nelson, and while this may have nothing to do with the above argument, it shows that there are flaws within a more general perspective regarding his coaching, that also neglect change.
If Nellie can play to his teams strengths instead of consistently adjusting to the other team – then the Warriors have a chance.
a look at Nelson’s track record of utilizing his rosters’ strengths with various teams should bolster your confidence
the flip side is age, and his lame duck status (not to mention our thin frontcourt depth)
"It’s frickin’ Sisyphean to be a Warriors Fan."
I think
barring injuries or a trade that a Curry, Ellis, Dorell, Lee, Andris should be our starting lineup every night. That lineup has a good balance and should work well.
Golden State Warriors Fan 4 Life!!!
Owner: Joe Lacob, Peter Guber
GM: Kevin Prichard
Coach: Brian Shaw
Over 1,000 wins online with GSW in 2K10
..............SC30..............

by 






















