It's not Melo, but....
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 3, 2010 5:51 PM PDT
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Print...here's another trade idea with the Thuggets that might actually work for both sides. Humor me here, it's my first post...
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yfumyq2
(I think we'd possibly need to sweeten it with a 2nd round pick)
Ok, before I start another conflagration, let me start out by saying that I like Monta, and I still have high hopes for him. He has shown an ability (save last year and MopedGate) to hush his doubters in the past through on-court improvements to his game, and if we didn't trade him, I wouldn't be upset.
That said, I make this post because I think this trade is a true win/win and is actually viable for both parties for a number of reasons.
Why it's interesting to the Nuggets:
1. Prove to 'Melo that they're <cough> committed to winning by bringing in one of the league's top scorers.
2. Monta's used to playing in a fast-paced system.
3. Billups is the type of PG that can play successfully next to Monta and switch on Defense when Monta's out-muscled.
4. They get rid of a head-case in JR.
Why it's interesting for the Warriors:
1. We shore up our Front Court and solve our depth (or, lack thereof) problem
2. JR Smith's expiring contract and $6 Mil in Cap Space in 2011
3. JR would fit the run-n-gun
4. Solve the "Monta and Curry can't play in the back court together" problem by making room for Reggie to start
5. Get a "fan favorite/energy player" in the Bird Man to replace the void left by Turiaf.
Downside for Nuggets:
1. Long-term money commitment
2. Monta might not be enough to pacify Melo
3. Thins out their Center position
Downside for Warriors:
1. We take on a headcase, and by all accounts (and fights), not a great locker room guy
2. We get a headcase that is as likely to shoot you out of games as keep you in
3. We take a risk on 4 years of the Birdman's ailing knees at an already ancient age of 32
Anyway, after seeing so many impossible trade proposals posted here (and mulling over so many impossible ones on my own), I finally found one that had real-world possibility and figured it was worth sharing. I'm curious what you think...?
Thanks for reading.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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I talked to Nuggets fans
They never gonna give up Birdman which means whatever the trade is. He will not be included in any trade. So this wont work.
They never gonna give up Birdman which means whatever the trade is
Does that come from the organization or just Nuggets fans?
Carmelo Shmarmelo
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 3, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Not even for Lebron or Kobe?
Serving it up night in and night out -Steph "The Chef" Curry
by dont_stop_believin' on Sep 3, 2010 6:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice try. You can use that name, but the trade still gives away the fact thay you're a nuggets fan
That would leave us with a huge hole in our backcourt. Monta and Steph are the only legitimate NBA starters in our line up, JR Smith is not a legit NBA starter.
Keeping Monta and signing Amundson is infinitely better than this purposed trade, from a Warriors perspective
Interesting reply
I’m surprised to hear you think it’s so lopsided in the Dubs’ favor. I’d think Reggie and JR could fill Monta’s void adequately at the 2. Obviously, neither are as good on their own as Monta, but it does increase the size of our back court, gives us cap flexibility, and shores up our front court.
And, as for being a Nuggets fan, I’m Bay Area born and raised, my friend. Though, I have been to the Pepsi Center…for a Warriors game.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 3, 2010 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I like the clever handle and the trade.
Indeed, when the ‘Melo rumors first appeared, I proposed your exact trade here. I think Smith and Monta are roughly comparable as players. Monta seems like a bit more of a solid citizen, hence Birdman as sweetener. The fact that there’s a Nuggets fan who likes the deal is semi-encouraging. Any chance of our squeezing Ty Lawson instead of Birdman out of the deal?
There will be no extra point!
Ah, I only made this more confusing, I see.
I am devout Warriors zealot, through and through, NOT a Nuggets fan. I’ve lurked on this site for the better part of the last decade before making this first post. Sorry for the poor wording above that would make things seem otherwise.
Sorry, Sleepy, must have missed your previous post. If this discussion has already taken place, feel free to delete the post., and my sincere apologies for the redundancy!
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 3, 2010 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Haha, please, no apologies. My comment was pretty deeply embedded in a long thread — no reason you should have noticed it. Great minds think alike I guess…
There will be no extra point!
not bad
Although, I would have to say that if we were getting J.R. back, I’d be tempted to sit him for most of the game while Reggie Williams plays. Ty Lawson – I think he has quite a bit of value, being groomed behind Billups, and I’m not sure the Nuggets would do that. I really like Anderson. Any kind of Noah-esque center who has length, hustle, and interior defense would be a great pick up.
However, if we do trade Monta for a guard + backup center, I’d prefer the guard to be a good defender, but maybe that’s already what you’re saying, since we’d have the cap room to target such a player in free agency the following year.
Lawson probably isn't going any where
The Nuggets aren’t grooming him as a Billups backup… they’re grooming him as Billups replacement. The team has 16 million reason not to exercise Billups team option after next season add if they do lose Billups I guarantee that they would want hold on to Lawson.
As for the trade posted, I’d consider this trade as well: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=26vnykr
Reason being is that a Smith/Birdman for Monta is a quasi-salary dump. Why not go for the full monte and just do a straight salary dump for Afflalo/Martin. We’d still have a huge salary coming off the books in Martin and 1 year run with Affialo at SG who is one hell of defensive stopper.
A Sonics fan without a team... but after 7 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.
The Nuggets aren’t grooming him as a Billups backup… they’re grooming him as Billups replacement.
And, this is a good point. If a Curry/Ellis back court doesn’t work due to lack of size, a Lawson/Ellis back court is doomed.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 7, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I think Affalo’s defense is overrated. Good, yes. Great, no.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 7, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Certainly not nearly as harassing on D as Dahntay Jones was for the Nuggs, but if the other option was starting JR Smith at the 2, Afflalo was plenty good enough to fit Karl’s defensive schemes.
by WYK on Sep 7, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Gah, I meant "so lopsided in the Nuggets favor"
I’ve written too much today, I see…
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 3, 2010 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Meant to say
in our backcourt
obviously Lee and Biedrins are legit
by myk on Sep 4, 2010 9:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks, holmes.
And, I thoroughly enjoyed your “Dynamics of David Lee….” post.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 3, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
No way they do this
They clearly get the short end of the stick.
They cant afford to lose bigs
There too thin up front
" Only build on positives , don't stack the negatives...Instead of criticizing , what was a positive?" - Donavin Darius
"There is nothing like a wise phrase or quote to help convince others that your decision makes sense." - Anon
"If you're ever in a fair fight, then your tactics suck." ಠ_ಠ
Interesting trade.
I’m not so sure what Denver’s mindset is right now concerning Carmelo. Do they feel that bringing in help will make him want to stay or do they feel that he’s leaving no matter what?
There’s been many posts/debates/threads on whether Curry & Monta can co-exist. Unless it’s a heavily favored trade for the Warriors, I’d love them to sit back & spend this season observing Curry & Monta together. If Monta can go back to his better seasons & Curry improves & Lee puts out another all-star year then this team will be really good. That’s a lot of “if’s” but I’d love the organization to try.
I’m fine with the “wait and see” for a year as well. I just think if management is convinced the Curry/Monta combo can’t work (which is something that Lacob has intimated in several interviews), I think this trade is both realistic and helpful, since it addresses a few areas of need without assuming too much risk (other than missing out on the remotely possible outcome of all the “if’s” you’ve listed).
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 6, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions
which is something that Lacob has intimated in several interviews
Hmm, I haven’t seen anything that’s given me that impression. Do you have any specific examples?
by Missing Barry on Sep 6, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess I could look up the links and citations, but...
I’m referring to his initial interview with Ralph and Tom on KNBR, and his CSN Bay Area interview with Greg Papa, when he stated that he thinks a team needs three great players to become championship caliber. He followed that up by saying that this current team features two pretty good players in Curry & Lee. To me, his feelings about Monta were latent in those statements. In later interviews, he reneged on that statement, saying that Monta was “one of his favorite players to watch in the NBA”, which seemed to be a CYA statement after realizing his previous statements had only served to deflate Monta’s trade value among other teams in the league. Though, that last part is pure conjecture on my part, I admit.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 7, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I heard that interview
I don’t think he was implying that Monta and Curry combo can’t “work”, just that Monta is not necessarily the “third guy”, in terms of having the most talent. That’s not to say that maybe the SF or C could be that guy. It doesn’t necessarily have to be a SG. Does that make sense?
Definitely makes sense.
It’s true I’m probably projecting my own bias when reading into Lacob’s comments. To say Monta isn’t the “third guy” is not the same as saying he can’t play with Curry, you’re right.
Alas, not being that “third guy” and making the second most on the team makes you pretty tradeable (if I may further attempt my Lacob mind-reading).
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 7, 2010 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Prove to 'Melo that they're committed to winning by bringing in one of the league's top scorers
Huh? Melo is already one of the league’s “top scorers” (use air quotes here). Why do they need another “top scorer”?
Top scorer
Yeah, I’m aware that’s a hollow claim. That was my attempt at playing Nugg’s owner and selling the Monta idea to Melo and the fan base :) Monta is obviously an excellent player, however, and would be an asset to their team (I really believe that), but sometimes you have to dumb the message down for the masses, and we all know that PPG is what the masses care about.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 6, 2010 6:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Way to add to the discourse
Care to share why you think so?
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 6, 2010 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Do you even play basketball?
Yep you are a funny guy. Mom’s calling ,your pancakes are getting cold.
by Only In Fairfax on Sep 5, 2010 12:38 PM PDT reply actions
Not Good
So we trade a top 10 scorer just hiting his prime for an over the hill back up center with bad knees, and a head case who just got done chocking someone out after all the previous poor choices. The dubs just cleaned up there locker room and this trade would just destroy it. I love hoe you preface what you say by stating you love Monta and have hope for him, then proceed to trade him for a bag of wet mice. Nice work!
Wet mice
I chuckled. Honestly, I see JR as little more than an expiring contract that could add scoring punch from the bench for the year. This trade gives the Dubs 7 mil+ in cap room in 2011, gives us the backup Center and energy player we need, and moves Reggie to the starting role, which improves our back court’s size and defense. As for Monta being a top 10 scorer….I think the subject of the efficiency by which he attains that distinction has already been beaten to death, but it bears mentioning that you’re perhaps overvaluing it.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 6, 2010 5:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Overvaluing?
It’s important in any trade scenario to not undervalue your talent. Monta was not the most efficient scorer las year, but what can you expect given the circumstances going into last season. It was set up for him to try any be the man for his team. Next year he will have to bring the scoring average down and efficiency up. Like he did playing alongside Baron. In short, I think the Monta/Curry tandem needs at least until the February trade deadline to see exactly what they have with them before deciding to trade him. Especially for a couple of role players who will not be in the teams long term plans. Even if it means clearing some cap space. Right now the cap isn’t an issue, and the teams salary structure is in order. Currently the best players make the most money and they are all considered core players. I’ll try to stop overvaluing Monta if stop undervaluing him. Deal?
but what can you expect given the circumstances going into last season
Never really been a fan of that argument. No, the circumstances weren’t good, yes, he still could have done much better. That said, I think the rest of your points are reasonable enough.
by Missing Barry on Sep 7, 2010 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Undervaluing Monta?
Nah, I just undervalue him as a “top 10 scorer”. I believe Monta has other components to his game that make him a good player, and I also believe that when he plays within the limits of his abilities, he has proven to be very, very good. The question remains whether or not he can, or is willing to, return to that type of player again. I really started to question that after his comments last season about being the second best player in the league between Kobe and Lebron. Whoah….slow down, Monta.
All that said, I particularly agree that it would be worth waiting until February to swing something like this, so that we can get a longer look at the team’s current composition and chemistry. I just hope that longer look doesn’t result in an even lower trade value for Monta if he continues last year’s production…
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 7, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I love how he thinks he is better than Lebron but not Kobe. If you are going to go full out ridiculous, just call yourself the best in the league.
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 7, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
"Playing within his limits"
That’s a great point. I’m sure there was a time when Monta would suggest he did just that. As evident from his “second best scorer in the league” comment which you pointed out. The question is what would he suggest right now after reflecting on the previous season. it was painfully obvious at times that he was trying to hard last year, causing him to be a black hole and the offense to become stagnant. During the last quarter of the season he began to back off some as Curry began playing a more prominant role in the offense. I believe it just took time for Ellis to believe in Curry’s game, get over the loss of Jackson, and begin to focus more on how they can best work together. Let’s not forget he was just 24 year old and still immature. Let’s hope the new wife and baby brings that aspect into the fold. I think he and Curry will build on last year’s momentum. It would be a shame to break it up prematurely. I don’t think it would kill Monta’s trade value to find out.
Next year he will have to bring the scoring average down and efficiency up
Well, if he can get the efficiency up (say >0.56), then I’m fine with him averaging over 20 ppg. In theory the number of shots a player takes would be proportional to their relative shooting efficiency. Assuming Lee, Curry, and Biedrins are our most efficient scorers, Monta really needs to get his efficiency up to merit taking more than 8-10 shots per game. The problem is that Monta doesn’t really do much else, and he’s a defensive liability. If he continues to shoot poorly, I think the only solution is to replace him with Reggie unless and until Monta can be traded for a “permanent” solution at SG. I’m hoping Reggie can be that guy, and if not, we need to think about bringing in someone who is more of a defensive stopper at that position to go along with Dorell.
Not a one trick pony
It’s unfair to say Monta “doesn’t really do much else” besides score. Two years ago that was true. Last year Monta played much better on ball defense, was a top tier guard in steals, and he consistantly took on the challenge of guarding the other teams best perimeter player. Sometimes that player would be 4 to 6 inches taller. I felt Monta really worked to improve his defense last year and he deserves credit for that. He’s far from a defensive liability. Name a couple of reasonable guys out there who we could acquire, that are head and shoulders better defensively while still efficient offensively.
Monta played much better on ball defense
Still rated as one of the very worst defensive players in the league.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 7, 2010 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I really didn’t see any significant improvement in Monta’s defense. He’s still not good at contesting shots (he just doesn’t have the size/length for htis). He’s still not good at staying in front of his man. He creates turnovers, which is good, but also something he’s always excelled at. Creating turnovers makes him significantly better than someone who doesn’t play good defense AND doesn’t create turnovers, but it just isn’t a substitute for being able to keep your man away from the rim and consistently contesting their shots.
by Missing Barry on Sep 8, 2010 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Sometimes that player would be 4 to 6 inches taller
So? I don’t care how hard he tries. I only care about what he produces. If Monta’s defense is hindered by his size, I don’t see how that can improve. He’s not growing any more, right?
So we trade a top 10 scorer
Ha
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 6, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Good Idea
The only player on the Nuggets worth trading for besides Lawson is Melo. If you’re gonna’ trade Monta then Melo better be coming back.
I used to feel the same way
Until I read GovernorSteph’s post " Carmelo Anthony: Corey Maggette Redux." Completely changed my mind on Melo and his value as a $23 mil/year player. Check it out.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 6, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Unsure
I’m not completely sold on Melo for over 20 mil a season either. The question has to be does he make you a perennial top western conferance team. that’s a big question because Melo has some weaknesses. Such as defensive intensity, efficiency in scoring, and desire to expand his game and get better. These are questions I don’t have in David Lee. I also think Dorrell Wright has all the tools to have a break out, Trevor Ariza type season. He could be the most overlooked acquisition of this season when it’s all said and done. However, I would trade Monta and change for Melo.
If we’re talking Monta/Melo here, one of the good things is Melo’s weaknesses…..well, also happen to be Monta’s weaknesses, so we aren’t really losing anything in a deal like that. That said, the thought of paying Melo the max sickens me. I want nothing to do with that.
by Missing Barry on Sep 7, 2010 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Monta and change for Melo?
In a heartbeat. Unfortunately, it’s going to take a lot more than that, both salary-wise and talent-wise, for Denver to pull the trigger.
by Lacob's Ladder on Sep 7, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Update
I would through in Vlad’s expiring a 2 ones or B. Wright and 1 one.
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