2010-2011 Phoenix Suns Preview- What goes up must come down? :: Around the Association
With the Dubs out of the playoffs (again x15 of the Chris Cohan era) I like many of you golden folks were rooting for our friends over in Phoenix. I'm obviously not talking about those Arizona Republikkkans and their anti-constitutional nonsense. I'm talking about the Phoenix Suns.
JUMP for some sunny side UP!
First things first...
Okay, now that we've got that out of the way we can proceed with our regularly scheduled programming.
Missing Amare
I hate to say it folks, but this summer was the beginning of the end for the Phoenix Suns. A declining Hedo Turkoglu and Hakim Warrick do not even begin to address the gaping hole that Robert Sarver's team created by not resigning Amare Stoudemire. Sure Amare wanted big bucks and probably a little (relative to NBA standards) too much for what he brought to the table, but guys who put up 26.6 ppg at an unstoppable 56.0% FG with 9 trips to the charity stripe at 77.5% FT (what Amare put up Post All-Star last season) are not easily replaceable. Actually forget the notion that they're even replaceable; they're virtually irreplaceable. The Suns went have from having one of the best 4 in the league to arguably the worst power forward in the Pacific Division.
In short, it was fun while it lasted, but it's over.
OVER.
Sorry Phoenix.
But... I am
I am the person who thought the Suns had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA chance against the San Antonio Spurs last season in the Western Conference Semifinals.
Guess what?
The Suns (thankfully) swept the Spurs.
I am the person who thought the Suns had ZERO, ZILCH, NADA chance against the LA Lakers last season in the Western Conference Finals.
Guess what?
The Suns fought hard and made it a very entertaining 6 game series. There's absolutely no shame in that and they won 2 more games than I expected them to.
The point being I could be wrong. I mean it has happened once before in my life. (Isn't it ridiculous how I say that right after I JUST pointed out how I was wrong TWICE?)
Sunny Side Up
I don't expect the Suns to make the 2010 NBA Playoffs (and I wouldn't mind being wrong about this since they've got a bunch of guys you just root for if you love hoops), but here's what the Suns have going for them:
- Steve Nash: (Just call me Captain Obvious!) Sure he's one of the worst defenders this league has ever seen since Larry Bird, but what he does with the rock is just magical. I don't need to tell you about the dimes he drops, but I feel like I have to tell you how amazing of a shooter he is. Nash is one of the greatest shooters in league history, yet it doesn't seem like he gets his due props for this. This Santa Clara alumni can shoot.
- Goran Dragic: I liked what I saw from him in the playoffs last season. That drama with Sasha Vujacic was pretty entertaining too. Is it a stretch to say he's one of the best backup point men in the entire association? (Just go with me on this one. We've got some friendly Suns fans reading this piece at home.)
- Jason Richardson: Okay he's not as good as Brandan Wright or a $10 million dollar trade exception (I kid, please don't say mean things about me in the comments. I'm begging you, PLEASE!), but J-Rich is a tough one. I'll take his winning attitude, hot shooting from downtown (JR doesn't get enough props for this. Longtime Warriors fans will tell you he couldn't shoot AT ALL once he first came into the league, but he worked hard at it and now he's a top shooting threat. Pay attention Andris Biedrins- it could happen to you too!), and stellar rebounding.
- Grant Hill: Just because he drinks Sprite. (If you got that reference, it's time to admit that you're old. Hey I'm not criticizing you, I'm in the same boat as you.)
- Josh Childress: The return!
- Robin Lopez: He's going to turn some heads this year.
- Hakim Warrick: I remember back in the 2005 NBA Draft (yes, we've been blogging WAY TOO long), I was praying the Warriors would take Warrick. Instead they took Ike Diogu. Thank you Chris Mullin. Warrick never amounted to more than an average NBA player at best, but that's a lot better than Ike did.
For everything you could ever want to know about the Phoenix Sunny Delight and more don't forget to check out Bright Side of the Sun:
THE Phoenix Suns blog.
More 2010-2011 GSoM Around the Association Fun
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I have to admit
I was kind of a Ike Diogu fan at the time. But I was just a big Pac-10 hoops fan regardless of how good or bad of a conference it is.
We Suns fans would (and do) point out 05-06
where without Amare we finished with 54 wins and made it to the WCF – with arguably a worse team than we have now.
So we feel ok about our chances this year. :)
Arizona Republikkkans, huh? The ones whose family members are getting kidnapped for ransom money from drug cartel thugs? (Over 300 cases in one year; yes, they were illegal immigrants). The ones who support the Arizona law that word for word almost, reflects Federal law, the same Federal laws the Feds refuse to enforce? Yeah, so the victims are the bad guys.
The Feds won’t enforce their own laws and sue Arizona for trying to enforce them for them, the Mexican drug cartels have caused the crime rate to skyrocket, and the people of Arizona got tired of it. Therefore, they’re racists. That makes so much sense.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
The crime rate...
…in Arizona has not significantly increased in a very long time. The FBI statistics (as cited in this CNN article), in fact, highlight a crime situation in Phoenix that has been steadily improving the last several years. The extent to which some politicians have attempted to hitch their careers to this issue accepted, any claim that Arizona’s reached a boiling point because the crime is sky high is fibbing for votes, nothing more.
by Zack Vank on Sep 8, 2010 2:43 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
It has gradually increased over time. In fact, once Arizona started trying to crack down on illegal immigration, the crime rate has dropped significantly.
As I said, the kidnappings for $$$$$ were at around 350 in one year. Violent crimes (the drug cartels are ruthless) have gone up significantly as well over the years; again, traceable back to the drug cartels.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
If the problem is Mexican drug cartels
then it shouldn’t be an anti-Mexican nor an immigration issue in my opinion. As the rhetoric has been presented to us, this is also an issue about jobs, with some white people saying “immigrants are taking our jobs”…the jobs that those white people clearly won’t do (as history has shown). and as business owners have clearly shown directly after the bill was enacted, their businesses have suffered because 1) their profits come off paying undocumented workers extremely low wages and 2) they can’t actually find anyone to fill those jobs that undocumented Mexicans are willing to do.
so, my point is, this issue is clearly not JUST an issue of drug cartels and public safety, because if it was, then you wouldn’t hear other stuff being said about labor. plus, i don’t believe that public safety is about profiling a whole community of people. Nor do I see public safety necessarily tied to immigration the way it has down in AZ.
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nor do I see public safety necessarily tied to immigration the way it has down in AZ.
Do you open your house to any stranger who just happpens to want in? or do you control your border?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 8, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, if your corporations moved in and messed up their house, it’s kind of the least you can do…
http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/corn_subsidies.cfm
I will not comment further though, I swear. Even this comment is very toned down.
Well, if your corporations moved in and messed up their house, it’s kind of the least you can do…
There’s two different problems there. Subsidies are one,the rational for them and the implementation. Import quotas are another, Mexico chooses to allow US corn so they must think it’s an advantage to their economy overall? Neither of those are a good reason for us to give up the sovereignty of our borders and allow an unchecked invasion?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 8, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
I can't click the link belilaugh put up but given I know a bit about us farm subsidies and Mexican corn production
I would be pretty darn stunned if the video was an arguement for giving up sovereignty of our borders and allowing an unchecked invasion. Sounds to me like some dangerous rhetoric being used.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Calling...
…this situation an “unchecked invasion”… suffice to say it’s awfully hyperbolic.
There are drug cartels that are too “Christian” to sell drugs to their own people, so they sell the hard stuff to the U.S. As U.S. dollars pour into Mexico, it strengthens the power of these racist (La Raza anyone?), brutal and corrupt organizations. The Mexican government has been infiltrated and intimidated by the drug cartels, but we continue to fund them. If you want to help Mexicans, stand up to the drug cartels.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
I am personally not the biggest fan of La Raza but let's not equate them to the drug cartels
I can also see the arguement that if you cut off entirely from the Mexican government it would only strengthen the drug cartels even more plus give people more reason to run across the desert.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
La Raza is evidence of the racism in Mexico. Some of the drug cartels have the goal of taking huge amounts of U.S. money and killing and harming citizens in the process.
As far as strengthening the drug cartels, what’s your rationale? That doesn’t make sense. You cut off the money and ability to intimidate, you weaken them.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
What happened to this
version of La Raza?
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Good song. Good… uh… racist song. Still, I used to listen to it. ha ha
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Very good song.
But why is this song racist?
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
or was that just a joke?
sorry, online comments and the sentiments behind them sometime get lost in my translation of them.
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
The implication is racist: “This is for the race,” i.e. only Mexican people. La Raza is the Mexican KKK, pretty much. If I sang a song, “This is for the KKK,” that would be racist.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
La Raza is an invention
of Chicano nationalism that coincides with other radically based civil rights movements seeking self-determination in the late sixties continuing on in the present. These radical groups, among others, sought to critique and dismantle white supremacy articulated through capitalist exploitation.
Of course, this doesn’t mean that La Raza or anything else was “perfect” but to call it “racist” at least in it’s original articulation in the united states doesn’t not take into account the racist historical reasons for it’s origination. But how it is articulated now in the 21st century, I don’t know.
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Their slogan, translated into English: “For the race, everything; for those outside the race, NOTHING.” Doesn’t sound good to me, which is why I compare them to the KKK.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
No clue whether La Raza is the moral equivalent of the KKK (this isn't to prop up La Raza but only to say that I don't know anything about La Raza lynching people)
I will say though I was very unimpressed by my personal experience with La Raza members in college telling how California belongs to Mexico because it was theirs first. Also not very impressed with the recruiting methods I have seen them use either.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
As far as strengthening the drug cartels, what’s your rationale?
My concern is that the border area would fall apart and the government will completely cease to exist (although I must admit, the present state of things is pretty darn close to that). If there is no government, the cartels will play the Hamas/Al Quida game (wow just realized no clue how to spell that) where they take up the government role in the area and gain more influence than before. It’s a messy game to play getting involved in the area but I do think it’s in our best interest to try to play the Mexican political game. If not, the northern states will further deteroriate and more and more people will try to flee the violence and head north.
Basically, a failed state of Mexico is a bonanza for the drug cartels. For all I know it could be too late but these are just the initial concerns that pop into my head when someone says cut off ties completely.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think Mexico is remotely in danger of anarchy just yet, or I’m sure we would’ve heard about it by now.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
The border is getting pretty darn scary and crazy
Juarez had 2,600 murders in 2009. Detriot saw 379. So far in 9 years in Afghanistan we have seen 1279 US troops die in Operation Enduring Freedom.
Pretty scary stuff.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Naticus one is back?
"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions
…this situation an "unchecked invasion"… suffice to say it’s awfully hyperbolic.
then let Arizona check them if you want a checked invasion :>) There’s a big difference between guilty and innocent. The innocent don’t mind being stopped and checked as they know it protects them from worse consequences. This is not a racial matter, it’s a law and order matter, if it requires checking everyone they stop to avoid the possibility of discrimination then just do that?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 8, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I am pretty sure my house isn't on a border and there are plently of US citizens I wouldn't allow in
This is dangerous rhetoric that has no basis in reality
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions
The issue of immigration is not just an issue of drug cartels and public safety but drugs and violence along the border are absolutely linked to immigration issues.
If we were able to effective protect the border, pretty sure that would help a great deal in bringing down the Mexican drug cartel’s influence in the border towns. Black markets thrive thrive where there is lawlessness because the whole point is that unknown and unchecked riches are being passed through. Of course, black money is thus also easy to steal and violent horrible stuff happens when there is such a market where everyone is competing illegally and in secrecy. Eliminate the ability to get the drugs across the border would really help.
Public safety in regards to drug cartel and drug gang activity along the border is very much tied to immigration. (Please note I am not suggesting racial profiling or the targeting of US citizens just because of their skin color or the language they chose to speak. I am merely pointing out that technically security the border would in fact be very beneficial towards preventing drug violence on the US side of the border. I am not advocating sb 1070 which I assume is what everyone is talking about here in regards to AZ).
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions
SB 1070...
…has also been defended of late on the bill’s language that racial profiling can’t be implemented in the course of these checks. This is a classic example of the letter of the law in no way accurately representing what will have to occur in implementation. The fact that the law says you can’t profile can’t possibly aid the situation, because the entire concept is predicated on the idea that you can get an immigrant-y vibe from somebody (based, yes, on a variety of qualities listed in the bill, ALL of which I could exhibit and never have my citizenship questioned) and demand they produce documentation of their citizenship. I challenge anybody to suggest a scenario to me in which racial profiling could reasonably not come into play.
just letting you know
What you are trying to articulate here would be the violation of the 14th amendment of the due process clause (essentially, it would be void for vaguness). That is merely just one reason why it is unconstitutional.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions
er
violation of the due process clause of the 14th amendment, sorry
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
It reflects Federal law exactly. If it’s unconstitutional to protect our own citizens from brutal criminals coming across the border, the Constitution needs to be changed.
It’s not remotely unconstitutional. Not even a little bit.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
It is absolutely unconstitional and it does not reflect the federal law exactly. This doesn't take a ton of research to figure out.
Good luck trying to repeal the 14th Amendment. Not exactly a lot of historical precedence on that one plus you would eliminate the bill of rights being applied anywhere outside of the district of columbia. Good luck.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
What part of the law is unconstitutional? You keep saying it is, but I don’t think so. As I said, it is the same as Federal law. Why do we have that law if it’s unconstitutional?
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
well if you want a legal arguement that isn't completely superficial you are going to have to wait because I got more pressing stuff to deal with.
Sorry if I want to make sure I am accurate.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Sorry if you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Wow
Seriously, you can’t wait? What you think I am setting a trap or something? Am I going to trick you with my words? You are being incredibly rude and straight up attacking me because I want to be accurate.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
YOU couldn’t wait. That’s why you can’t back up your empty claims. That’s my point. Pot calling the kettle black? You already proved you don’t know what you’re talking about. You make unfounded accusations, smearing Arizona and can’t back it up until tomorrow. How about if you waited until tomorrow to make the accusations in the first place?
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Seriously you need to cool down.
I gave a quick comment about it, you asked me for more information but I am at work and would appreciate if you give me the time because there are FACTS and CASELAW in play. Apparantly I can only question the Arizona law if I have research materials in front of me or have memorizied the exact arguement but you can totally defend it as being constitutional by simply mischaracterizing someone’s arguement (this isn’t just an issue about federal law being on the books for decades). Sorry I don’t have entire paragraphs of information memorized but yes I have had to research the topic before and know I can do a good job of explaining it when I get home. Just because I don’t want to mischaractize facts doesn’t mean I don’t know what I am talking about. If I don’t have to time tonight I am sure I can do it in the morning.
Again, lay off the personal attacks. I didn’t attack you, I am merely interested in arguing the constitutional issues and yes I can’t do the entire thing from memory. Believe it or not the whole issue blew up months ago and I have been pretty busy so yeah I need a refresher if you want me to be more precise. That doesn’t mean I don’t know anything but unless you have some experience in such fields then I am going to have to explain a lot of stuff to you in the correct way or else it will confuse the heck out of you (sorry that isn’t to offend but it could get really confusing for anyone who doesn’t have a background in this area).
And don’t give me crap about how I couldn’t wait. All I originally said is “sb1070 as written cannot pass Constitional muster under the equal protection clause, due process clause, and the supremacy clause.” I fully intend to explain it and explain it accurately for you. I am not using some jedi trick on you.
I am not “smearing” Arizona in the slightest. I literally just said that the bill is unconstitional under three different constitutional arguements and then quickly talked about further problems I have with it (by the way those were not constitiutional arguements but if you want I can explain why it would make the Arizona police officers jobs more difficult and the cash incentive part. To be honest they are only really policy concerns).
Naticus, I am not calling you names. I don’t think everyone in Arizona is a racist. I understand there are legitimate concerns about immigration but yeah I do have problems with this specific law and sorry but I do not have westlaw chip in my head.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
As I said, the law reflects the Federal law that has been on the books for generations. There is no problem, other than with people who have an agenda.
Also, I’m not the one that needs to cool down. My side is trying to prevent murders, kidnappings, torture, etc. that these drug cartels are imposing on people.
Your side is just promoting politically correct bullcrap for the purpose of condemning everyone that’s not in the “elite” liberal class.
By the way, my side comprises about 70% of the country. We’re all against the Feds interfering with Arizona’s responsibility to protect its citizens from the monstrous cartels.
Blame the Feds for not securing the border, not the “racist” Arizonans.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Just a quick general comment that has little to do with the topic
Three things that drive me up the wall in these chats: (1) people straight up lying (2) people trolling (3) people telling me what I think.
You clearly have not been lying but the personal attacks and telling me what I think is getting on my nerves. You do not know “my side” I am not engaging in “polical correctness” arguements, I haven’t “condemned” anyone, I didn’t call Arizonians “racist”, I am not a “far Left with” an agenda to appear like I have a “superior morality of sorts.” Heck I don’t even recall even arguing morality to begin with.
Taking the entire debate on the issues out of this, you are being a complete dicknose. You are attacking me and mischaracterizing me. You don’t get to act like a jerk just because you think you are right.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
If I’m wrong about you, you largely still brought this on yourself, acting as a propagandist with little or no facts or understanding of the situation. Sounds to me like you’ve been watching too much MSNBC and reading the Huffington Post, which would make you a liberal.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
What?
I literally told you my general opinion and asked you to give me less than a day to give you a proper response. Seriously, this is a propagandist? What propaganda did I dive into? I don’t even have cable. I watch Frontline occasionaly, is that some sort of bastion of crazy propaganda? Do you see me questioning what news channels you watch? (Sorry but I don’t think what news channel you watch is even close to relevant). Oh because I read the New York Times, the local newspaper, Drudge, Huffingtonpost, Slate, and the Atlantic does that make me some evil liberal conservative who likes to read local news? What is it a point scale or something I am unaware of?
You are still attacking me as a person, labeling me, and telling me who I am when you know nothing about me. In fact you are far more interested in labeling me and grouping me into some caricature. Again, notice how I am not calling you a racist (and for the record, I absolutely have zero reason to think you are in fact a racist and do not think you are)? Notice how little I care about where you read your news?
I am not trying to say “I am right, you are wrong” I am literally telling you why I think this law will not stand. I am not attacking your values but you clearly enjoy attacking mine … even though you don’t even know what they are (apparantly I am now the caricature of a Left wing liberal). I love talking politics and debating policy issues and what not but darn it’s frustrating when people don’t stay on the issues but veer into merely labeling people and try to simply belittle them as if the whole thing is merely a pissing contest.
Again, don’t get me wrong I get it if you disagree about the point of contention – to support or not support sb 1070 – but you disagreeing on that doesn’t excuse the fact that you are acting like a jerk.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
No, you were going on about how the bill is unconstitutional without any facts. You didn’t know and still don’t know. That’s why I say you’re being a propagandist. Why such strong feelings about it, if you’re not a liberal? It’s based purely on the left’s agenda. No one on the right is like, “Well, people’s feelings are more important than people not getting kidnapped and murdered.”
The supposed unconstitutionality of this bill is purely a construct of the Democrats. The mainstream media, as usual, is conveniently too lazy to critique the Obama administrations’ political ploy.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
I'm sorry did I say "Well, people's feelings are more important than people not getting kidnapped and murdered."
And I hate to break it to you but my legal critique below had nothing to do with the media and was based on case law, as in what the Supreme Court has said.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Your legal critique had nothing to do with reason; the Obama administration didn’t challenge the law based on that critique either, knowing that critique can’t possibly hold any water.
What I find emotional is that you’re imagining that somehow, this law is unjust. You’d have to be crazy to put these imagined legal issues over the lives and safety of the people of Arizona.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
lol
Actually yes my Constitutional critique is in fact a massive part of the Obama administration’s critique and it’s quite funny and not based on reality to suggest otherwise. And that critique has held water so far. But go nuts and pretend there is no precedent on the issue or that the administration isn’t making the same arguements. Either way you are just going to move the football and just say “Well if that’s what the Constitution says and that is how the Supreme Court has ruled on these well founded issues, we will need to change the Constitution.”
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions
If the Obama administration is referring to Due Process, they’re idiots. The fifth amendment applies to the Federal government only.
That critique has not held water. The judge didn’t follow the law, relying on speculation and a vivid imagination instead of empirical evidence.
By the way, yes, if the Federal government has the right to not enforce its own laws, and then punish states to try to make up for their failure to do their job, the Constitution would have to be changed. Fortunately, the 10th amendment says the states have all powers not spelled out in the Constitution.
Does the Constitution grant the power to enforce immigration laws? It doesn’t, actually. The Constitution only discusses naturalization, allowing the Federal government to define who ought to be a citizen and who should not.
The Arizona law is essentially a mirror image of Federal law (except a little weaker). Anyone against this law must be politically and not rationally motivated.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
If the Obama administration is referring to Due Process, they’re idiots. The fifth amendment applies to the Federal government only.
Ever read the 14th Amendment? Nice job calling people idiots there. How about instead of dialing up the rhetoric you just ask how I am applying due process to the states? If you call people idiots for things you don’t know it’s not very helpful.
Does the Constitution grant the power to enforce immigration laws? It doesn’t, actually. The Constitution only discusses naturalization, allowing the Federal government to define who ought to be a citizen and who should not.
You might want to read how the high court has interpreted Article I and Article II of the US Constitution. Hines v. Davidowitz and De Canas v. Bica are two big cases on the feds power in regards to the US border (I could be wrong but pretty sure De Canas also dealt with the Supremacy Clause as well but a little hazy at the moment)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
They didn’t interpret it; they essentially rewrote it. Besides, that doesn’t change the fact that Arizona is simply enforcing Federal law. Congress can’t tell the states what to do based on whims, only when the Constitution gives them power to do so.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it say, “The Federal government can stop states from enforcing Federal law.” That doesn’t make any sense and makes so little sense, all Americans should be outraged at the control-freak nature of the Obama administration.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Nowhere in the Constitution does it say, "The Federal government can stop states from enforcing Federal law."
If you read Wally’s posted case law you’d understand the issue.What you think and want is not relevant to the outcome.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Based on whims? Rewrote it?
What whim are you talking about? Rewrote it, this stuff has been on the books for years, the ball hasn’t been hidden here.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, look at the judge’s decision; it’s only somewhat based on case law, taking selectively from case law only those points that support her politically motivated decision.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/233731/abominable-decision-mark-r-levin
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I wasn't talking about the AZ judge but alright
I will read this tonight or tomorrow morning though (because now I am darn curious). I honestly haven’t read the fed judge’s decision to enjoin the law.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
er, federal judge in Arizona
sorry
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
I will point out though
United States v. Salerno has no baring on juding the case on it’s merits. That is a case involving the standards used when trying to enjoin a law. This involves a separate issue and seperate issues from the merits of the case as a whole.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
sorry rewrite
United States v. Salerno has no baring on juding the case on it’s merits. Sorano is a case involving the standards used when trying to enjoin a law. Sorano involves a different issues and different rules then what I was arguing.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey sorry, just wanted to let you know I didn't have time to read the judge's decision this weekend
So might have to continue this to another date. Sorry, had a bit of an unexpected family gathering on Sunday when I thought I would have a few hours to kill.
by wallywagon11 on Sep 13, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Unjust?
Sorry but where did I say unjust? Never talked about it being unjust. I said it won’t be upheld under the constitution though. And these aren’t imagined legal issues, they are actual real legal issues that concern US citizens and their individual rights and concern issues of preemption and jurisdiction. Go nuts rewriting history and facts though.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:04 AM PDT up reply actions
If its not upheld by the courts, it is only due to corruption and not due to the law itself. The Constitution grants the states the right to enforce immigration law. Arizona is not trying to redefine naturalization laws, and are in fact enforcing Federal law.
Read the 10th amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
This means Congress and the Obama administration are obligated to step aside out of respect for state rights.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
You might want to read how the high court has interpreted Article I and Article II of the US Constitution. Hines v. Davidowitz and De Canas v. Bica are two big cases on the feds power in regards to the US border (I could be wrong but pretty sure De Canas also dealt with the Supremacy Clause as well but a little hazy at the moment)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
I’d prefer you quote the Constitution and what statements were made in the trial that supports the Feds stopping Arizona from enforcing existing Federal law.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
Considering I already quoted the constition (you can look up the articles yourself by the way) and cited the holdings in the cases and what page they are on in the digests
I think you can figure out the rest unless you want me to scan the entire case and then shepardize them for you.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
either way I got them at home so you'd have to wait a bit and no I am not going to print and read several 100 pages of material during my lunch break
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I find it kind of funny that when I go out of my way to quote things accurantly for you and give you the precise information that I rely on
you call me out as somehow using progaganda and not knowing anything because I don’t have it memorized in my head. Yet now all of a sudden you want me to do the same exact thing over again.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I did look up the articles, and I don’t see how they apply. To apply them is a stretch, as far as I can tell. If you have to stretch the Constitution to force Arizonans to subject themselves to brutal drug lords, something is very seriously wrong.
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Stop being a dick
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 9, 2010 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
What can I say? I’m tired of the left demonizing common sense; I’m sick of it and sick of people being accessories to propaganda and not taking responsibility for it.
It’s easy to put a nice face on spreading propaganda but the act of doing so is dangerous. People need to check their facts before demonizing and politicizing life and death issues. I’m sick of this crap.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
What can you say?
You can express your opinion in a way that doesn’t demonize the opposition.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 9, 2010 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I have strongly condemned people’s comments, not the people themselves. I may be blunt, but at least I’m honest. It’s better than sitting back and doing nothing, watching this country fall victim to stupid ideas and elitist power grabs.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
It’s easy to put a nice face on spreading propaganda but the act of doing so is dangerous. People need to check their facts before demonizing and politicizing life and death issues. I’m sick of this crap.
I gave you facts which you ignored. I never demonized you either.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
You gave propaganda. I looked at your “facts,” and they are not facts but bullcrap. I gave a response to your alleged “facts,” (which are actually arguments), and they are not even a little bit convincing. They’re political motivated and sickeningly so.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
lol
Okay apparantly the number or illegal aliens being deported isn’t a fact. Apparantly federal preemption isn’t real. Apparantly I just made up Mathews vs. Diaz or perhaps we can just call precedent propaganda. Apparantly I just made up when the feds trump the state police powers and made up a bunch of cases.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions
Nothing is a fact to Naticus.
It’s apparently left wing, socialist propaganda.
Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I never said you made anything up. You’re relying on a twisting and distortion of the law and not on the actual law. That’s why it’s propaganda. Again, 10th amendment:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Welcome to the Pit of Despair! Don't even think about trying to escape.
sorry, struggled with the reply button
thought this was a comment directed toward me
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Okay here we go - Part 1: Federal Preemption. Apologize for the length. I'll shorten the rest of them.
Okay so both the fed and the state have different spheres of influence. For the most part, government power is concurrent, essentially belonging to both the states and the federal government. Thus, it’s possible for states and the federal government to pass legislation on the same subject matter. When this occurs, the Supremacy Clause provides that the federal law is supreme, and the conflicting state law is rendered void (no matter if it is worded the same as the federal law).
So, a valid act of Congress or federal regulation supersedes any state or local action that actually conflicts with the federal rule. For example, in Haywood v. Downs (2009), federal law gave state and federal courts jurisdiction to hear claims for violations of federal rights committed by persons acting under color of state law. New York determined that the majority of suits seeking monetary damages from corrections officers under the regulation were frivolous and therefore divested its trial courts of jurisdiction to hear such cases. The Court held that the state’s policy of shielding corrections officers from suits under the law violated the Supremacy Clause. State courts may apply their own procedural rules as they do to do state claims but they could not exclude a class of federal claims from being heard in state court.
You are probably saying to yourself "Who cares, this isn’t an issue where there is an actual conflict between the state and federal government." Here, is the thing though, it is also sufficient if the state or local law interferes with achievement of a federal objective. This is even true if the state or local law was enacted for some valid purpose and not merely to frustrate the federal law. For example, in Perez v. Campbell (1971), a state law provided for suspension of a driver’s license regardless of the judgment debtor’s discharge in bankruptcy; however, federal bankruptcy laws are meant to give bankrupts a fresh start. The Court held that the state law interfered with the federal objective and thus was unconstitutional under the Supremacy Clause.
Even if a state or local law does not conflict with federally regulated conduct or objectives, so long as Congress intended to "occupy" the entire field, the Supremacy Clause precludes any state or local regulation. This is where the argument is lies, in this prong of the federal preemption analysis.
One must first understand the federal government’s role is with immigration. The Constitution vests the political branches with exclusive and plenary authority to establish the nation’s immigration policy. See U.S. Const., art. I § 8, cl. 4 (Congress has the authority to "establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization"); U.S. Const., art. I § 8, cl. 3
(Congress has the authority to "regulate Commerce with foreign Nations"); see also U.S. Const., art. II § 3 (vesting the President with the authority to "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed"). Pursuant to this authority, over several decades, Congress has enacted and refined a detailed statutory framework governing immigration – a task that has involved reconciling the complex and often competing interests of national security and public safety, foreign relations, and humanitarian concerns. The federal immigration scheme, largely enacted as part of the Immigration and Nationality Act ("INA"), 8 U.S.C. § 1101, et seq., empowers the Department of Homeland Security ("DHS"), the Department of Justice ("DOJ"), and the Department of State, among other federal agencies, to administer and enforce the immigration laws, and it provides for the considerable exercise of discretion to direct enforcement in a manner consistent with federal policy objectives.
In regards to the federal government’s discretion regarding the entry, removal, and treatment of aliens within the United States, we have to focus on the INA. The INA sets forth the conditions under which a foreign national may be admitted to and remain in the United States. As part of these conditions, Congress created a comprehensive alien registration system for monitoring the entry and movement of aliens within the United States. See 8 U.S.C. §§ 1201(b), 1301-1306; see also 8 C.F.R. Part 264. If an alien enters the United States without inspection, presents fraudulent documents at entry, violates the conditions of his admission, or engages in certain proscribed conduct, the federal government (through DHS) may place him in removal proceedings. See 8 U.S.C. §§ 1225, 1227, 1228, 1229, 1229c, 1231. In addition to removal, DHS and DOJ may employ civil and criminal sanctions against the alien for particular violations of the federal immigration laws (please note, under federal law, an alien’s mere unlawful presence in the United States is not a crime, although it may subject the alien to removal from the United States.) See, e.g., 8 U.S.C. §§ 1325, 1306, 1324c. To prevent the unlawful entry of aliens into the United States, Congress further criminalized certain activities of third parties, such as the smuggling of unlawfully present aliens into the country, and the facilitation of unlawful immigration within the nation’s borders. See 8 U.S.C. § 1324. Critically, Congress provided for the civil removal of unlawfully present aliens, but did not criminally penalize their mere presence or movement within the country absent other factors. Nor did Congress impose criminal penalties on aliens for solely seeking or obtaining employment in the country without authorization, see H.R. Rep. No. 99-682(I) at 46, electing instead to prohibit employers from hiring unauthorized aliens. See 8 U.S.C. § 1324a(a)(1).
Under this framework, administering agencies are empowered to exercise their discretion not to apply a specific sanction to an alien who has unlawfully entered or remained in the United States. For example, DHS has authority to permit aliens, including those who would otherwise be inadmissible, to temporarily enter and remain the United States (i.e.,
"parole") for "urgent humanitarian reasons" or "significant public benefit." 8 U.S.C.
§ 1182(d)(5)(A). In addition, DHS and DOJ may withhold or cancel the removal of an alien under a variety of special circumstances, including those relating to family unity and domestic abuse. See 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(1)(E)(iii); 8 U.S.C. §§ 1229b (providing DOJ discretion to cancel the removal of an otherwise inadmissible or removable alien under certain circumstances); see also 8 U.S.C. § 1182(a)(6)(A) (excluding from inadmissibility certain aliens who have been subjected to battery or extreme cruelty). Further, both DHS and DOJ may grant an otherwise unlawfully present or removable alien relief from removal – and potentially adjust that alien’s immigration status – if the alien meets certain conditions. If an alien has a well-founded fear of persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, he may be eligible for asylum in the United States, "irrespective of [his] status." See 8 U.S.C. § 1158. Similarly, an alien may be afforded temporary protected status and remain in the United States if he is an eligible national of a country that DHS has designated as experiencing ongoing armed conflict, natural disaster, or another extraordinary circumstance. See 8 U.S.C. § 1254a.
Essentially, the federal immigration laws do not focus on one, singular interest but instead seek to further multiple competing objectives.
Now, the DHS is the federal agency primarily tasked with enforcing the immigration laws, mainly through its components, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement ("ICE"), U.S. Customs and Border Protection ("CBP"), and U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services ("USCIS"). See 6 U.S.C. §§ 251–52, 271; 8 U.S.C. § 1103. DHS receives state and local cooperation. See, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1103(a)(10) (authorizing DHS to empower state or local law enforcement with immigration enforcement authority when an "actual or imminent mass influx of aliens . . . presents urgent circumstances"). In addition, Congress prescribed by statute a number of ways in which states may assist the federal government in its enforcement of the immigration laws. 8 U.S.C. § 1357(g) (1)–(9) (enabling DHS to enter into agreements to authorize appropriately trained and supervised state and local officers to perform enumerated immigration related functions); 8 U.S.C. § 1373(a)-(b); 8 U.S.C.§ 1252c (authorizing state and local law enforcement to arrest aliens who are unlawfully present in the United States because they were previously removed after being convicted of a felony in the United States).
Currently DHS does not have the capacity to deport everyone who is found to be in the country illegally so DHS is prioritizing the removal of people with criminal records who are a potential threat to public safety. There are a limited number of people our immigration system is able to process and remove (people charged with immigration violations are waiting over a year on average for their case to be resolved in immigration court). Given the choice of whether to spend those limited resources on the removal of non-criminal immigrants or criminal immigrants, DHS wants to ensure that they’re removing those who could be dangerous. This is a common practice that has been around for years. What isn’t common though is that DHS is deporting a record number of unauthorized immigrants and an increased percentage of them have criminal records.
And now we have SB 1070 which was signed by the Governor of Arizona. The Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution provides that federal laws and treaties are "the supreme Law of the Land." U.S. Const., art. VI, cl. 2. In some cases, the Constitution – through its own force – can preempt state action in a field exclusively reserved for the federal government. See De Canas v. Bica, 424 U.S. 351, 356 (1976). Statutes enacted by Congress may also preempt – either expressly or impliedly – otherwise permissible state action. See Gade v. Nat’l Solid Waste Mgmt. Ass’n, 505 U.S. 88, 98 (1992).
The Supreme Court has recognized two bases by which state or local laws may be impliedly preempted. "Field preemption" exists when a "scheme of federal regulation [is] so pervasive as to make reasonable the inference that Congress left no room to supplement it" because "the federal interest is so dominant that the federal system will be assumed to preclude enforcement of state laws on the same subject," or because "the object sought to be obtained by the federal law and the character of obligations imposed by it may reveal the same purpose." Pacific Gas and Elec. Co. v. State Energy Res. Conservation & Dev. Comm’n, 461U.S. 190, 204 (1983) (internal quotations marks omitted). "Conflict preemption" occurs when a party cannot comply with both state and federal law, Fla. Lime & Avocado Growers,Inc. v. Paul, 373 U.S. 132, 142-43 (1963), or when the state law "stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress." Hines v. Davidowitz, 312 U.S. 52, 67 (1941); Freightliner Corp. v. Myrick, 514 U.S. 280, 287 (1995); see also Kobar v. Novartis Corp., 378 F. Supp. 2d 1166, 1169 (D. Ariz. 2005) (Bolton, J.). These bases for preemption are not "rigidly distinct," however, and "field pre-emption maybe understood as a species of conflict pre-emption." Crosby v. Nat’l Foreign Trade Council,530 U.S. 363, 373 (2000) (internal citations omitted).
Moreover, "that the supremacy of the national power in the general field of foreign
affairs, including power over immigration, naturalization and deportation, is made clear by the Constitution, was pointed out by authors of The Federalist in 1787, and has since been given continuous recognition by [the Supreme] Court." Hines, 312 U.S. at 62. Although this federal power does not preclude "every state enactment which in any way deals with aliens," De Canas v. Bica, 424 U.S. at 355, or bona fide state cooperation in the enforcement of the federal immigration laws, see, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1357(g)(10); Gonzales v. Peoria, 722 F.2d 468, 474 (9th Cir. 1983), it has long been recognized that the "[p]ower to regulate immigration is unquestionably exclusively a federal power." De Canas, 424 U.S. at 354; see also Toll v. Moreno, 458 U.S. 1, 11 (1982) ("determining what aliens shall be admitted to the United States, the period they may remain, regulation of their conduct before naturalization, and the terms and conditions of their naturalization" are matters exclusively reserved to the federal government); Mathews v. Diaz, 426 U.S. 67, 84 (1976) ("[I]t is the business of the political branches of the Federal Government, rather than that of either the States or the Federal Judiciary, to regulate the conditions of entry and residence of aliens."). Further, a state exceeds its power to enact regulations touching on aliens generally if the regulation is not passed pursuant to state "police powers" that are "focuse[d] directly upon" and "tailored to combat" what are "essentially local problems." De Canas, 424 U.S. at 356–57.
Now the big argument is that the overall scheme of SB 1070 is preempted because it sets a state-level immigration policy that interferes with federal administration and enforcement of the immigration laws on the book. Basically, Arizona, dissatisfied with the federal government’s response to illegal immigration has sought, through S.B. 1070, to override the considered judgment of Congress regarding the formulation of immigration policy, and the judgment of the executive branch regarding how to balance competing objectives in implementing the federal immigration laws. Arizona’s policy pursues only one goal of the federal immigration system – maximum reduction of the number of unlawfully present aliens– to the exclusion of all other objectives. The concern is that, in pursuing that goal, Arizona’s policy will disrupt federal enforcement priorities and divert federal resources needed to target dangerous aliens. S.B. 1070 is therefore preempted, because (1) it is an unlawful attempt to set immigration policy at the state level and the policy it advances conflicts with federal objectives animating federal administration and enforcement of the INA.
Only the federal government may establish immigration policy – namely, the process
of "determin[ing] who should or should not be admitted into the country, " De Canas, 424 U.S. at 355, and the "conditions lawfully imposed by Congress upon . . . residence of aliens,"Takahashi v. Fish and Game Comm’n, 334 U.S. 410, 419 (1948). See also Ferreira v. Ashcroft, 382 F.3d 1045, 1050 (9th Cir. 2004) ("In the immigration context . . . the need for national uniformity is paramount."); Arres v. IMI Cornelius Remcor, Inc., 333 F.3d 812, 815 (7th Cir. 2003) ("Federal immigration power is not just superior to that of the states; it is exclusive of any state power over the subject. Illinois is not entitled to have a policy on the question [of] what precautions should be taken to evaluate the credentials of aliens.").
This prohibition on state formulations of immigration policy does not preclude a state from cooperating with the federal government on immigration matters, nor does it restrict a state from adopting state laws that have incidental effects on aliens. See De Canas, 424 U.S. at 355-56 ("local regulation" with only a "purely speculative and indirect impact on immigration" is not "a constitutionally proscribed regulation of immigration"). Indeed, state participation in cooperative immigration enforcement is specifically contemplated by federal law. See, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1357(g). No mechanical test defines the limit of state power to promulgate, under their police powers, regulations incidentally affecting immigration. But at a minimum, a state is generally barred from enacting a "comprehensive scheme" for immigration, i.e., a system of state laws that affects "a direct and substantial impact on immigration." League of United Latin Am. Citizens v. Wilson, 908 F. Supp. 755, 769–70 (C.D. Cal 1995).10 S.B. 1070 falls on the prohibited side of this line because, as discussed below, the statute (i) explicitly refers to itself as creating "public policy" for the State of Arizona on immigration issues and was intended to rival or supplant federal immigration policy, (ii) establishes interlocking regulations to further the State’s policy, and (iii) effectuates the "policy" through the criminal and procedural sections of the statute, which include a private right of action to ensure the maximum state enforcement of immigration laws. S.B. 1070 § 2(H); see also Part I.C, infra. According to the statute’s statement of "intent," S.B. 1070 is not meant to exercise traditional state police powers but rather seeks to establish an Arizona-specific immigration "public policy." S.B. 1070 § 1. The substantive provisions of S.B. 1070 effectuate Section 1’s statement of intent, establishing various bases for detaining and incarcerating aliens in Arizona in order to achieve the overarching goal of regulating immigration through "attrition through enforcement." Sections 2 and 6 expand the set of suspected aliens whose immigration status will be verified by Arizona officials. Sections 3, 4, and 5 provide several means of criminally sanctioning any alien who is unlawfully present in the state – a status which is not a federal crime but which is the focus of Sections 2 and 6. And the private right of action embodied in Section 2 ensures, on pain of a private lawsuit for money damages, that state and local officials in Arizona maximally enforce the provisions of S.B. 1070, thereby establishing an Arizona immigration policy that promotes sanctions to the exclusion of other interests that animate the federal immigration laws and that disrupts federal enforcement priorities, including the focus on dangerous aliens. In stated purpose and necessary operation, therefore, the provisions of S.B. 1070 demand that Arizona pursue at all costs a policy designed to deter unlawfully present aliens from moving into the state and to inspect, investigate, detain, and in some cases criminally sanction those already in the state. For these reasons, S.B. 1070 is a comprehensive and aggressive effort to set statespecific immigration policy that will have a "direct and substantial impact" on immigration, and it is therefore preempted as a matter of law. See League of United Latin Am. Citizens, 908 F. Supp. at 769–70.
The Supreme Court has made clear that state laws may be preempted where they fail
to account for, or seek to countermand, the considered balance between competing interests struck by Congress in enacting a statute, or by the executive branch in enforcing that statute. S.B. 1070 falls squarely within this prohibited category.
In Crosby v. National Foreign Trade Council, for example, the Court held that a
Massachusetts law restricting purchases from companies doing business with Burma interfered with the executive branch’s authority over economic sanctions against that country. 530 U.S. at 376. The Court determined that Congress had not only given the executive branch the authority to impose certain sanctions against Burma, but that in doing so, it provided the discretion and flexibility to levy and relieve those sanctions in a manner that would advance human rights and democracy in Burma and be consistent with the national security interests of the United States. Id. at 374-75. Massachusetts’s "sanction" on Burma was preempted because it would have permitted the state to effectively second guess the specific balance of sanctions (whether levied or withheld) that was available to and employed by the United States. Id. at 376. Notably, even though many aspects of the Massachusetts sanction regime nominally could have been pursued by the executive branch under existing law, the state law was still deemed invalid because the state’s imposition of sanctions necessarily impeded executive discretion as to the appropriate balance of interests to be reflected in U.S. policy towards Burma.
Buckman Co. v. Plaintiffs’ Legal Committee supports the same conclusions. In
Buckman, the Court determined that the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (FDCA) empowered the FDA with a "variety of enforcement options that allow it to make a measured response to suspected fraud," and that under the statutory scheme, the "FDA pursues difficult (and often competing) objectives," such as ensuring that medical devices are reasonably safe, while allowing devices on the market as soon as possible, and regulating medical devices without interfering with the practice of medicine. 531 U.S. 341, 349 (2001). The Buckman Court held that the FDCA’s enforcement scheme preempted state law tort claims premised on fraud committed against the FDA, noting that the relationship between the federal government and those it regulates is a matter for the federal government and not part of the states’ traditional police powers. The Court further reasoned that because the FDA pursues a particular balance of competing objectives, states are precluded from taking action that could skew the "balance sought by the Administration" through its calibrated enforcement policies. Id. at 348. This Court has likewise interpreted Buckman as cautioning against the "inherent difficulty" that arises when states try to "substitute their judgment for that of the" federal government. Kobar, 378 F. Supp. 2d at 1173–74 (Bolton, J.).
The same principles apply here. To begin with, it is beyond question that the federal immigration regime established by Congress, no less than the regulatory regimes at issue in Crosby and Buckman, is complex, and requires a balance among multiple and sometimes competing objectives. See U.S. ex rel. Knauff v. Shaughnessy, 338 U.S. 537, 543 (1950) (immigration control and management is "a field where flexibility and the adaptation of the congressional policy to infinitely variable conditions constitute the essence of the program"). It is certainly a primary objective of federal law to prevent aliens from unlawfully entering and residing in the United States, and Congress has empowered DHS and DOJ with a range of enforcement options to this end. See, e.g., 8 U.S.C. §§ 1182, 1225, 1227, 1229, 1306, 1324, 1324c, 1325. But the federal immigration laws also take into account other uniquely national interests and priorities, such as facilitating trade and commerce; welcoming foreign nationals who visit or immigrate lawfully and ensuring their fair and equitable treatment wherever they reside; and responding to humanitarian and foreign affairs concerns at the global and individual levels. Consequently, there are situations in which other congressional policy objectives weigh against removal or incarceration of certain unlawfully present aliens.15 Similarly, the federal government prioritizes its enforcement efforts by targeting highly threatening aliens who pose a danger to national security and public safety. As a result of the complexities inherent in the enforcement of the federal immigration scheme, DHS and DOJ necessarily must (i) establish global policy objectives that attempt to strike a balance between employing criminal sanctions and other immigration values, and
(ii) exercise their authority and discretion on a case-by-case basis consistent with those
global objectives. See Homeland Security Act, Pub. L. No. 107-296, 116 Stat. 2135 (2002); 8 U.S.C. § 1103; 8 U.S.C. § 1252(g); see also Reno v. American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Comm., 525 U.S. 471, 484 (1999) (describing deferred action as a "commendable exercise in administrative discretion, developed without express statutory authorization")
In enacting a state policy of "attrition through enforcement," Arizona’s S.B. 1070 ignores every objective of the federal immigration system, save one: the immediate apprehension and criminal sanction of all unlawfully present aliens. See S.B. 1070 § 1. Arizona’s one-size-fits-all approach to immigration policy and enforcement undermines the federal government’s ability to balance the variety of objectives inherent in the federal immigration system, including the federal government’s focus on the most dangerous aliens. By requiring local police officers to engage in maximum inquiry and verification (on pain of civil suit) and by providing for the conviction and incarceration of certain foreign nationals in Arizona for their failure to register, for entering or traveling throughout the state using commercial transportation, or for soliciting work, the "balance" struck by S.B. 1070 is not only different from that of the federal government, but it will interfere with the federal government’s ability to administer and enforce the immigration laws in a manner consistent with the aforementioned concerns that are reflected in the INA. Despite the statute’s self serving claim that it "shall be implemented in a manner consistent with federal laws regulating immigration," S.B. 1070 § 12, the act mandates a conflicting, Arizona-specific immigration policy – "attrition through enforcement" – and prescribes various provisions that implement that policy in conflict with federal priorities. To permit a hodgepodge of state immigration policies, such as the one Arizona has attempted in S.B. 1070, would impermissibly interfere with the federal government’s balance of uniquely national interests and priorities in a number of ways.
First, Arizona’s across-the-board "attrition through enforcement" policy will interfere with federal enforcement priorities. The federal government, which exercises significant enforcement discretion, has prioritized for arrest and detention those aliens who pose a
danger to national security or a risk to public safety principally targeting aliens engaged in or suspected of terrorism or espionage; aliens convicted of crimes, with a particular emphasis on violent criminals, felons, and repeat offenders; certain gang members; and aliens subject to outstanding criminal warrants . . . [and] fugitive aliens, especially those with criminal records. But S.B. 1070, which requires Arizona law enforcement officials to target any and all suspected aliens without regard to dangerousness, will "divert existing [federal] resources from other duties, resulting in fewer resources being available to dedicate to cases and aliens" that the federal government has identified as posing the greatest immediate threats to the United States. Diverting resources to cover the influx of referrals from Arizona (and other states, to the extent similar laws are adopted) could, therefore, mean decreasing the federal government’s ability to focus on priorities such as protecting national security or public safety in order to pursue aliens who are in the United States illegally but pose no immediate or known danger or threat to the safety and security of the public." S.B. 1070 is therefore preempted because it will force a diversion of federal resources away from federal priorities. See Kobar, 378 F. Supp. 2d at 1170,
1173–74 (Bolton, J.) (finding Arizona statute preempted, in part, because it would result in "deluge" of information to the FDA, thereby interfering with other FDA priorities); see also Garrett v. City of Escondido, 465 F. Supp. 2d 1043, 1057 (S.D. Cal. 2006) (acknowledging serious concerns regarding the city’s use of federal authorities to determine the immigration status of tenants because the process would "likely place burdens on the Departments of Justice and Homeland Security that will impede the functions of those federal agencies").
Second, Arizona’s new immigration policy will substantially interfere with the federal government’s ability to administer and enforce the immigration laws in a manner consistent with congressional objectives. Congress has clearly anticipated circumstances in which an alien may have unlawfully entered the United States or violated the conditions of his admission, but for whom the United States nonetheless has an interest in providing what it calls humanitarian relief. See, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1158 (asylum); § 1254a (temporary protected status); § 1227(a)(1)(E)(iii) (humanitarian waiver of deportability to assure family unity); § 1229b (cancellation of removal); § 1182 (d)(5) (parole). For example, were DHS to come into contact with a foreign national from a specially designated country (such as Nicaragua, Honduras, or El Salvador), or one who has survived the earthquake in Haiti, or is a victim of trafficking or persecution, DHS might choose not to detain or penalize the alien for immigration violations incidental to his entry into the United States and instead permit that alien to stay in the United States under a variety of programs. These programs demonstrate that one aspect of federal immigration policy is to assist and welcome such victims in the United States, notwithstanding their possible temporary unlawful presence. By contrast, under S.B. 1070, any other potential immigration concern falls away in favor of Arizona’s decision to pursue "attrition through enforcement," which, as implemented through the remainder of the statute, promotes the incarceration and arrest of all unlawfully present aliens, no matter what other congressionally mandated concern might be implicated or whether the person’s status is known to the federal government. In that way, S.B. 1070 will interfere with established federal immigration priorities concerning the treatment of aliens who may be eligible for humanitarian relief.
Third, Arizona’s focus on criminal sanctions is at odds with the federal policy of channeling certain unlawfully present aliens into civil removal proceedings or permitting them to leave the country without criminal penalty or incarceration. See 8 U.S.C. § 1229c (voluntary departure); § 1225(a)(4) (withdrawal of application for admission)
There are numerous reasons why it is in the national interest not to exact criminal penalties on every alien who attempts to enter or enters the country without a visa or other necessary documentation. For example, the application of criminal sanctions to a particular alien who was a victim of trafficking or labor abuse may prevent federal authorities from obtaining evidence against other aliens who pose a greater threat to public safety or national security. Similarly, the United States may deem it unduly harsh or counterproductive to its humanitarian efforts or foreign relations to incarcerate a woman with young children who has attempted to cross the border for the first time.
In addition, there may be times when civil removal is a more appropriate enforcement tool because criminal sanctions would have immigration consequences that would interfere with the United States’ ability to provide a particular immigration benefit in the future. See, e.g., 8 U.S.C. § 1254a©(2)(B). S.B. 1070 recognizes no such nuance. As such, the law undoubtedly strikes "a different balance" than the policy advanced by federal law and thereby "stands as an ‘obstacle’ to the accomplishment of . . . federal law." See Lozano, 496 F. Supp. 2d at 527–28; see also Crosby, 530 U.S. at 378.
And even if S.B. 1070 could be said to promote federal immigration policy in some abstract sense, the methodology chosen by Arizona conflicts with that chosen by the federal government, and is therefore preempted. See Gade, 505 U.S. at 103; Int’l Paper Co. v. Ouellette, 479 U.S. 481, 494 (1987).
My problem with the debate is that I hear a lot about how anything short of removing every single person found to be in the country illegally is essentially amnesty. I feel that it obscures the fact that while illegals with criminal records are in fact being deported and there is a miss conception that the federal government is doing nothing. This leads to a situation where multiple states are enacting different laws with different agendas and it makes the focus on violent criminals much much harder. One can’t argue here that the state is enforcing it’s police powers because it is well known that the state police power does not include the ability to set immigration policy.
Whatever I think, it should be pointed out that are a lot of other arguments in relation to federal preemption and SB 1070 and that it is largely believed that the law will be considered unconstitutional on federal preemption grounds. Pretty sure the Department of Justice was able to get it’s preliminary injunction based on this argument, which doesn’t bode well for Arizona’s case given that, to get a preliminary injunction, one much show they are likely to win the case.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Sorry this is the link where I pulled the DHS information
And yes of course this isn’t all my own content. It’s mainly research and pulling the parts that I personally found fairly strong.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I’m not going to read all of this, but just to illustrate how worthless this whole thing is, I’ll respond to some of it and make a point about how this is all politically motivated:
First of all, while yes, if a state makes a law that conflicts with Federal law, the Feds win. But this law is the same as Federal law; it doesn’t conflict with it. So it starts off as a strawman argument.
Secondly:
Second, Arizona’s new immigration policy will substantially interfere with the federal government’s ability to administer and enforce the immigration laws in a manner consistent with congressional objectives.
This is not relevant to the law; all powers not granted to the Feds are granted to the states. The Feds must, by Constitutional mandate, allow the states to exercise all powers not granted to the Feds. The Feds have no right to stop Arizona, as they are not granted that power anywhere in the Constitution. States have every right to control their own borders and do a whole host of things that the Feds can’t do. States have many more powers granted to them than the feds do, Constitutionally speaking.
Third, just because the Obama administration feels that it’s in the country’s interest, doesn’t mean they have the power granted to them in the Constitution to do anything about that. Arizona is constitutionally granted the power to do this, and the Feds are Constitutionally obligated to get out of their way.
Might I point out that publicly, Obama said that this was all about racism? But do you see any charge of racism or discrimination in the Obama administrations’ charges here? None.
This is all politics, creating drama, making demons of anyone not in Obama’s pocket, using those enemies to create allies, using the race card (which is really the Dems’ calling card lately) and trying to usurp power that doesn’t belong to them.
This kind of crap is why the Tea Party (which is pretty much the smaller federal government movement) has gained so much more traction during this administration.
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So it starts off as a strawman argument.
I have zero clue what strawman I built. Seriously, I have built zero strawman. I get if you disagree but there was no straw being built here. At all. Serously, I have no idea where you are pulling that. What arguement did I create and pretend was yours or pretend was an arguement used by people who support sb 1070 and then attacked? I am really confused how I built a strawman. Seriously, I thought I was pretty darn fair here.
This is not relevant to the law; all powers not granted to the Feds are granted to the states. The Feds must, by Constitutional mandate, allow the states to exercise all powers not granted to the Feds. The Feds have no right to stop Arizona, as they are not granted that power anywhere in the Constitution. States have every right to control their own borders and do a whole host of things that the Feds can’t do. States have many more powers granted to them than the feds do, Constitutionally speaking.
I am really confused how this doesn’t matter whether 1070 will substantially interfere with the federal government’s ability to administer and enforce the immigration laws in a manner consistent with congressional objectives.
Some powers are exclusively federal because of express constitional limitations on or prohibition of the states’ exercercise of the power (this would be treaty power, coinage of money, and duty of imports). Some powers are exclusively federal, such as declaration of war, federal citizenship, naturalization, and borrowing money on US credit. Any type of state exercise in these areas would subvert the federal system. Whereas the federal government only has powers granted to it by the US Constitution, states have “unlimited” powers, having all power not prohibited to them by the Constitution (look towards the 10th Amendment).
The thing is though that most government power is concurrent, belonging to both the states and the federal government so it is technically possible in these cases for both the states and fed government to pass legislation on the same subject matter. When that happens, we look to the Supremacy Clause which states that the federal law is supreme and conflicting state law is rendered void.
So my arguement above was based on whether the Arizona and fed government passed legisation on the same subject matter (which is hard to argue against) and then whether Arizona’s law is conflicting with the federal law. You can argue all day about how similar it is to the federal law (by the way, I am pretty sure the federal law doesn’t have the same provisions allowing citizens to sue the federal government. That matters and no they are not the same) but there are three prongs of analysis you have to address: (1) Actual conflict between state and federal law; (2) state preventing achievement of federal objective; and (3) preemption through either express preemption or implied preemption. 1070 may be able to pass the first prong but I would think it quite difficult to pass the other two (not going to repeat the entire arguement here).
I would also like to point out that the federal government has control of the national borders. Yes, the 10th Amendment provides that all powers not delegated to the federal government by the Constitution are reserved for the states (just letting you know though, the fed does have a very wide reach in general because of their commerce powers). Sorry but the fed and Congress have a few more delegated powers in regards to treaties, naturalization of citizens, and the US border. That’s going to be a real tough arguement. I have a hard time seeing how Congress and the fed don’t have the power to make policy decisions and laws regarding the federal border.
Might I point out that publicly, Obama said that this was all about racism? But do you see any charge of racism or discrimination in the Obama administrations’ charges here? None.
I am having a hard time finding his quote about this being about race. This is what I got so far.
“Indeed, our failure to act responsibly at the federal level will only open the door to irresponsibility by others. And that includes, for example, the recent efforts in Arizona, which threatened to undermine basic notions of fairness that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between police and their communities that is so crucial to keeping us safe.”
I could be wrong but I was under the impression he is talking about concerns with US citizens having their rights infringed upon (this would either be a 14th Amendment equal protection/due process question or an 4th amendment search and seizure arguement). The issue is about whether US citizens will have their rights violated. I don’t see him saying this is simply “about racism” here. Maybe there is some other quote I don’t know about.
This is all politics, creating drama, making demons of anyone
I would actually argue this and the arguements for repleaing the 14th amendment are actually merely politics by people in the Republican party (I must stress though, this isn’t a “how dare they turn this into politics, those bastards!” arguement.). I am saying this because sb 1070 is very unlikely to be upheld as constitutional. It’s simply not constitutional. This isn’t a “How dare anyone try and stop immigration, that’s racist, we are founded on immigration arguement” it’s simply an arguement that it won’t pass constitutional muster. Everyone knows it. At the same time though, it’s a great rally cry on the right, particuarly in Arizona where people are fed up with illegal immigration. It’s a great way to rally “us against the world” sentiment and get your base active. It’s good politics for republicans (as for repleal of the 14th Amendment – off topic I know but I feel the same way about that because it is darn near impossible to repeal an amendment and not realistic but again a great way to get the base motivated).
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Wow, you win the prize for the longest response ever posted.
But it boils down to the essential…
"Further, a state exceeds its power to enact regulations touching on aliens generally if the regulation is not passed pursuant to state “police powers” that are “focus[d] directly upon” and “tailored to combat” what are “essentially local problems.”
.
Sounds like about what Arizona has in mind? A failure of the federal govt. to protect their citizens? State’s rights at it finest?
Bottom line is the feds need to get off their ass and fix the problem or let the states do it. If they don’t have the man power hire more agents. Bring some troops home from far away countries and use the money to secure our borders, Arizona is a lot more important than Afghanistan or Iraq.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. This is a gross injustice, where the Federal government isn’t doing their basic duty and Congress has an apparently secret agenda (have they ever explained why they won’t secure the border?). Congressional secret agendas shouldn’t be trumping the lives and safety of American citizens, should it? Unless we’re living in a dictatorship now.
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That chunk you pulled is actually extremely relevant and a big chunk of the arguement.
I would argue more about it but it would be extremely dangerous to do so without case law in front of me because this is kind of the meat and potatoes part – how has the court applied this standard in the past. Just letting you know it’s an insanely tough standard that has rarely every been met.
It’s funny you mention the wars because Jan Brewer and Jerry Brown (here in Californiaobviously) have actually made the same arguements before: that the federal government is too focused on Al Queda and not focused enough on the kidnapping and mafia thug issues along the US border that are endangering US citizens.
Appreciate the response Skeptic.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Jan Brewer and Jerry Brown have actually made the same arguments before: that the federal government is too focused on Al Queda and not focused enough on the kidnapping and mafia thug issues along the US border that are endangering US citizens.
even more these issues are endangering our Mexican neighbors and imperiling their ability to have a functioning government. A lawless Mexico is a lot more dangerous to us than a lawless Iran or Afghanistan. There’s a huge population of desperate people right over the border who could use our help, no need to go halfway around the world looking for trouble.
Thanks for your expert analysis Wally, I know it takes a huge amount of time to find and post these cases but they are vital to understanding the complexity of the issue.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 12:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Okay sorry I'll keep it shorter
The Due Process Clause and the Equal Protection Clause guarantee the fairness of laws – substantive due process guarantees that laws will be reasonable and not arbitrary, and equal protection guarantees that similarly situated persons will be treated alike. Both guarantees require the Court to review the substance of the law rather than the procedures employed.
2. Due Process
Under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, a law can be held unconstitutional if it fails to provide minimal guidelines to govern law enforceement officers so as to discourage arbitrary and discriminatotry enforceemnt. Koldenar v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983); City of Chicago v. Morarles, 527 U.S. 41 (1999) – holding unconstional on vagueness grounds an ordinance that allowed officers to disperse suspected gang members when they were "loitering,’ which was defiend as remaining in any one place with no apparant purpose.
Here in SB 1070 the issue was Section 2 (now amended by HB 2162) that would require state and local police officers "when practicable" to check the immigration status of individuals whom they stop, detain, or arrest if they have "reasonable suspicion" to believe the suspects are in the country illegally. Among other provisions, the law restricted the use of "race, color, or national origin … except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution."
But how to determine “reasonable suspicion”? It doesn’t exactly give a whole lot of guidelines and can lead to legal citizens getting arrested. Anything short of the person saynig their are an illegal would be tough to figure out. Does an accent count? The ability to speak English, because I know a lot of elder US citizens who don’t speak English.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
This Due Process stuff isn’t relevant; as you can see in your own post, the Obama administration didn’t even bother with Due Process, knowing the law was perfectly legitimate in that respect, reflecting federal law in every respect. Federal law was written with the Constitution in mind, so the state law, which is essentially the Federal law, is perfectly in harmony with Due Process.
You say it doesn’t give guidelines, but what do you know about Arizona law and law in general? “Reasonable suspicion” is part of police training; they go to school to understand those concepts from a legal perspective. They’re trained in the law, and in fact the Arizona law DOES give guidelines. Have you read it? No? Neither have any of the Democrats using this to create conflict and drama for their own advantage.
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yikes
sorry I accidentally only copied and pasted the top of my arguement. I did read the AZPOST guidelines. Sorry this might make no sense because I am going shorthand now but for what it’s worth …
The problem with the law is the “reasonable suspicion” language and the enforcement section (not in the federal law) which allows US citizens to sue police officers for not enforcing the law under the “reasonable suspicision” guideline. So basically a cop is stuck in the lovely position where they are in a vague grey area where if they see only one of the guidelines (like multiple people in one car) they can still get sued because they are not allowed police discretion under this law and are required to bring in anyone who they feel there is “reasonable suspicion” of being an illegal. It’s a problem because they are being told their suspicions must be reasonable, they can’t base it on race, they can base on such things as a car full of people and if they get it wrong they will be sued because they can’t use their discretion. It’s a horrible spot to put the police in.
Now I already gave a quick summary on equal protection above and it deals with classifications. The Court will apply one of three standards when examining government action inovlving classifications of persons: (1) strict scrutiny (2) substantially related test (3) rationally related test.
When it comes to alienages,the standard of review for federal governement classifications based on alienage is not clear and tends to fall in more of an arbitrary and unreasonable standard which is not one of the big three standards. However, state and local laws are subject to strict scrutiny if based on alienage. Thus, such laws will be struck down as unconstiutional unless the government proves that it is necessary to achieve a compelling state interest (should be noted that there is an exception for alienage involving participation in the self-government process, where the must easier standard – the rational basis standard – is applied).
Undocumented aliens is diffierent though. So far, the Supreme Court has not held that undocumented illegal aliens are a suspect classification. Thus, a state law that imposes burdens on persons who are not in the United States without the permission of the federal governemnt can end up being upheld under the rational basis test as long as the law was not arbitrary. We do not know how the Court will rule on this yet and this is why the whole thing is interesting to me.
I would say though the fact that there is already federal law on point and the feds have explicitly layed out their policy, this law could technically fail in that it is arbitrary (because the feds are already focusing on deporting the violent criminals in the US and can back it up with statistics showing they are doing so). This is the weakest of the constitutional arguements against 1070 largely because we have zero clue how the Court will rule. For what it’s worth, in Plyer v. Doe (1982), the COurt held that a state denied equal protection to undocumented alien chidlren when it denied them state supported primary or secondary education. However, in Martinez v. Bynum (1983) the Supreme court did uphold a state statute that permitted a school district to deny tuition free education to any child (whether or not a US citizen) who lived apart from his parent or lawful guardian if the child’s presence in the school district for the “primary purpose” of attening school in the district. The state did nto have to consider such a child to be a bona fide resident of the school district.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
There is no problem. “Reasonable suspicion,” means that you can use a line of reasoning to arrive at a conclusion. Reason is objective, by definition. It’s not vague, although reason isn’t simple. That’s why our police officers have training and education in the law.
Furthermore, the law specifically says that you can’t judge based on race.
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The law does specifically say you can't judge based on race and I am pretty sure I put that in there
That doesn’t mean it still doesn’t have problems, specifically the language about citizians being able to sue. That is what makes the due process stuff much more of a sticky issue.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Law enforcement in general has problems. Should we stop all traffic stops to prevent COPS from pulling Black people over for no reason? I’m not justifying that behavior, of course, but we can’t just stop all traffic stops for that reason alone. Similarly, we can’t just drop rational and necessary laws, just because they’re problematic at times.
Obviously, the police need training and need to be controlled by the state. There is no question on that. That said, the law must be enforced, and in this case, it has become a matter of public safety. That’s trumps any of your concerns.
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I am not so sure if public safety hear necessary trumps the Constitution
Obviously you don’t just stop all traffic stops because black people have been pulled over for no reason. Black people have been pulled over for no reason, not because the laws on the books violate people’s 4th amendment freedoms from search and seizures but because the police officers acted outside the scope of the laws. Stopping a car is a seizure thus, generally, police officers can’t stop a car unless they have at least a reasonable suspicion to believe that a law has been violated (there are exceptions for roadblocks). It should also be noted that police are even allowed to engage in pretextual stops (most people dont’ know that) so long as the offier belives a traffic law was violated).
Now the 4th Amdnement provides that people should be free in their persons from unreaosnable searches and seizures and you are probably thinking something along the lines of “Well heck this law uses the reasonableness standard” and it does. That being said, the sticky part here is the civil lawsuit angle of the whole matter because one can say that it eliminates a police officer’s ability to use “reasonableness” under the threat of lawsuit (against the city not them personally). I will point out that I am pretty sure George Will wrote a column actually saying that the AZ police will be able to meet the standard regardless (not sure which news magazine it was in but I can’t research it at the moment).
I would argue though there might be some public safety concerns the law being implemented. If you require police to report suspected aliens, it will make it much more difficult for the police to communicate with that segment of the population when there is a murder or violent crime in their neighborhood. Nobody will trust talking to them (I think they did change the law on this issue though but again I can’t look it up right now but it is a concern that pops into my head).
Here is what it boils down to for me: Basically I do question whether the law is necessary and fear that it will infringe on the rights of citizens in this country and I am concerned that it takes away police discretion which I feel is a pretty valuable tool for police officers. I personally am not a huge advocate on this particular issue, but regardless, I do have a hard time seeing how the law doesn’t fail under the Supremacy Clause. In the end I would prefer more of a focus on the actual border protection, the employee day laborer loopholes, keep DHS’s emphasis on violent criminals, and keep engaged with the Mexican government on intelligence and information regarding drug cartels (not necessarily sharing but staying in the loop as much as possible)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
You have not illustrated that it is unconstitutional. Not even close. Your cut and paste was just garbage and the “due process” is not an issue. What you were talking about above, the comments to which I was responding when I mentioned “your concerns” had nothing to do with the Constitution but about concerns about police incompetence or bigotry. But we have the same problem at every level of state government, all the time, everywhere. We still have to give people like the police enough power to do what needs to be done, i.e. deporting and arresting illegal immigrants.
Ultimately, you should be complaining about the Feds, instead of supporting this mindless anti-“racist” cause, which is really just regular people trying to protect themselves and try to maintain a first world country, preventing it from turning into Mexico-north, overrun with corruption, violence and drugs.
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you think I am blaming anyone? I pointed out my specific problems with the bill
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
It’s not anti-immigration per se. It’s anti ILLEGAL immigration, as in ENFORCE THE FREAKING LAW that already exists. It’s on the books for a reason. If it’s a bad law, have the legislature make all immigration legal. If not, bullcrap.
As far as illegal Mexican workers, we’re treating them like indentured servants. They don’t get paid crap, and American citizens should be willing to do they work they do. The South had a rough time letting go of slavery for economic reasons, too. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have stopped.
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As far as illegal Mexican workers, we’re treating them like indentured servants. They don’t get paid crap, and American citizens should be willing to do they work they do. The South had a rough time letting go of slavery for economic reasons, too. That do
I totally agree. If the US needs more workers then let them come but pay them fair wages based on the living cost here not in Mexico. Every job lost to a foreign worker willing to work for 3rd world wages is one more US family put under stress. And every job done by illegal immigrants was done by US workers . My grandparents were farm workers and made a good living at it. We once had proud industrial workers here in the US instead of sending everything off to china to be built by sweat shops. Strategically it is not a good practice to put your country’s supply chain under foreign control just as it is not smart to let a foreign country flood you with desperate cheap labor.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 8, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I am in full support of protecting our borders
but sb1070 as written cannot pass Constitutional muster under the equal protection clause, due process clause, and the supremacy clause. Sorry but it won’t be a terribly difficult case in this regard and that’s before debating whether it is illegal under the Arizona Constitution. It would also make an Arizona police officer’s job a living hell while also providing a nice cash incentive for neo nazi groups to sue local law enforcement. It’s a complete disaster of a bill.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions
What language in the bill is unConstitutional. You claimed that “what has to be done” to enforce it would be unconstitutional, now you say the bill itself is unconstitutional. What language in the bill is unconstitutional? What will supposedly have to be done to enforce it? What evidence do you have that it has to be done?
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I'll tell you what
if you would like, if not tonight then tomorrow morning I will give a fairly quick explanation. If you want to look it up yourself type I am sure you can find some interesting information in regards to the Due Process Clause (the vagueness issue) and the Equal Protection Clause (the issue of whether the law would unnecessarily violate the rights of US citizens). There are other issues but I assume you already know about Federal Preemption and I am a little rusty on the Privileges and Immunities Clause.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Equal protection isn’t equal treatment, in case you didn’t know. The law reflects Federal law already and Federal law obviously is Constitutional. There is no Constitutional issues here, unless you’re the far Left with an agenda to appear like you have a superior morality of sorts.
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what the heck?
could you wait? I am very happy to offer you a very basic explanation that has nothing to do with far Left or far Right and is rooted in actual fact but it takes time and I actually want to pull the exact language from the law and actually show you the type of arguements that are actually going to be used in court. Cool your jets.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
So you’re also going to explain why the Federal law is unconstitutional, when it’s been on the books for years? Bull.
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If you want me to focus on federal preemption (which is the federal issue) that is fine
but I wanted to also discuss the equal protection clause and the due process clause which do not have a basis on the federal laws. I also might discuss the Privileges and Immunities Clause issue although I must admit that could actually be a weak arguement against the bill and if it is I will be happy to explain why I think it is a weak arguement. If you disagree with my analysis after I present it that is fine but could you lay off the personal attacks?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I think you meant to convey this or something similar to it.
The ones whose family members are getting kidnapped for ransom money from drug cartel thugs? (Over 300 cases in one year; yes, they were illegal immigrants)
Many of those who are being kidnapped are in fact illegal aliens. Often what happens is they get transported into the US by smugglers and are taken to a safe house the trafficers have. The trafficers then, who already made an agreement with family members in the US demand more money from the family and essentially hold them for randsom. Often the families are too scared to report it to the police because they fear they will be in trouble. Sometimes they are too scared to report it and don’t have the money and things get real messy.
(I am assuming this is what you were referring to with the “they were illegal immigrants”)
The drug cartel thugs are a very real danger along the border.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I've doubted Steve Nash before...
But never again! I and many others skipped on him multiple times during last season’s fantasy draft because we all thought he was washed up. Then he turns around and puts up some of the best stats last season. Basically, as long as Nash is on the Suns, they have a shot at the playoffs.
Type the words RUN TMC in Ebay!
Type the words RUN TMC in Ebay!
Type the words RUN TMC in Ebay!
Type the words RUN TMC in Ebay!
Pacquiao fans type MANNY CHANT in Ebay!
That's how I'm thinking this one through
Steve Nash was their best player last year. I kind of have faith that he’s going to be good till he retires.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 8, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
I honestly think he’s going to be the same player for awhile. His game is not dependent on athleticism, his minutes remain low, and he keeps himself in great condition.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Special place in my heart always for Los Suns
Safety can be improved with laws dealing with safety not laws saying a person can be stopped or arrested on suspicion of being illegal.
If there is good reason to believe they’re illegal, why not? If there is good reason to believe someone is breaking any OTHER law, cops stop THEM. Why special treatment for other people who behave in a way that is cause for suspicion? They should be treated like any other person suspected of breaking the law. Plus, since the goal is to control the violence and drugs, you stop people who seem suspicious (e.g. multiple grown men driving around in a single car with no women, who perhaps look nervous). Then, the cops can talk to them and make judgment calls on whether they are the type we want to deport, as they check their immigration status.
Don’t assume the cops want to be overwhelmed, stopping old Mexican women or children. They want to get males who seem suspicious out of the country.
If the Feds would do their jobs, we could get legal immigrants here on work visas. We could control what kind of folks come in, and that would solve the problem. Blame the Feds, not the “racist” Arizonans.
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HUH?
Please study the law a bit more. I’m glad you have a thing against Mexican males who look suspicious—but that just proves why this law is racist and unconstitutional. THe law permits stopping somone based on reasonable suspicion. Not just suspicion for looking “weird” and nothing more. Arizona has been racist since before the day it banned MLK day and before it produced Senator McCain who walks around calling Asians gooks.
I didn’t say, “Mexican males.” I didn’t say “looking weird.” I said multiple males riding in the same car. That’s one way to profile without race, and it’s effective. It’s one of the established ways cops cut down on crime.
Also, i don’t want to hear your ad hominem argument against the Arizonans or taking John McCain out of context. Typical character assassination bullcrap. How about you juts explain how the law is somehow irrational or unconstitutional. We’re not debating how John McCain or Arizonans FEEL. We’re debating whether the law is right or wrong.
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I think your comment
about taking things out out of context also applies to your comment saying that the iteration of La Raza is “racist.” Historical studies have shown well into the present how white supremacy in California in the form of institutionalized and legalized racism (racial convenants when it comes to housing and corporate de-skiling of latinos, african americans, etc) existed. of course, we can’t forget genocide that comes with “western” colonialism.
this isn’t to say “La Raza” can’t be racist in it’s manifestations, but you also need to see the larger context by which emerges as an anti-white supremacy discourse in the sixties.
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Obviously racism existed in California. California was one of the leading progressive racist states for decades, promoting eugenics and genocide through birth control.
I do see the larger context. Just because I didn’t mention historical white supremacy movements doesn’t mean I don’t consider them.
But those racist movements don’t make modern racist movements right. Obviously.
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You don't explain
what about La Raza at the time of it’s inception is racist and the same as the KKK? By saying how “La Raza is for my race” cannot be equated with the KKK who were (and possibly still are) out lynching people who weren’t white.
While I might the La Raza as an outdated mode of analyzing white supremacy (I have no idea what it’s current manifestation is), the types of programs and ideologies that they provided were critiquing white supremacy as a form of capitalist exploitation and genocide of people of color. I think you need to review your history books before you continue to assume that La Raza and KKK are equivalent terms and equivalent ideologies.
by dj fuzzylogic on Sep 8, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn't want to chime in, but...
I didn’t say, "Mexican males."
Your right, you said
you stop people who seem suspicious (e.g. multiple grown men driving around in a single car
So I ask you, who’s going to be stopped in ARIZONA under this new law? Asians? Blacks? White? Some Scottish guys in a kilt doing a jig? I’d say that’s pretty suspicious there.
WHO in Arizona is this law targeting? If you believe this law is is not targeting latin people, your either 1. Very foolish or 2. a DAMN Liar. I hope your the former.
Naticus, I know you feel strongly about your position on this. And that’s fine, that’s great actually. I love people taking interest politics and saying what they believe, right or left.
But it sounds like you have never had the privilege of being pulled over, for no apparent reason, removed from your vehicle and and searched. Only to have the police officers not find anything and then send you on your merry little way.
Well I have. Why? Because I’m a Latin man who grew up in the bad neighborhoods and now I drive a nice car. I’m not mexican, I’m nota gang banger, nor drug dealer. But your saying that if I was driving with some friends to any location, as long as the officer determined that I looked nervous or as you said “suspicious” then he would have the right to pull me over and yet again violate my right as a citizen?
Oh, and I work for the Federal Government, I know how we dance around the slightest discrimination issues. This is a blatant as racial profiling as you can get.
If you don’t see that, there’s no reason in anyone arguing with you.
“Aut disce aut discede”
by esco41510 on Sep 8, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
The law specifically says its illegal to check people based on race, and says so overtly multiple times. You say you don’t believe, but I don’t care. It says what it says and the cops will have to follow the law and follow state law.
I have never had the privilege of being pulled over, but I can tell you that the Black people of Arizona are for controlling illegal immigration as well. They know how it feels, but they are more concerned about the well-being of their families.
I’m sorry people have been pulled over for no reason; honestly, I think that’s really wrong and can imagine how it would feel.
That said, the law is written in a way to prevent racial profiling. If there is harassment, the cops responsible ought to be suspended without pay. Whatever it takes.
All of that said, this law is the SAME as the Federal immigration laws; it is Constitutional, it is rational and it’s absolutely necessary for the welfare of the people of Arizona. There is no reason to be against it.
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a court already ruled the law to be unconstitutional
so in a sense, there is nothing more to say other than you are wrong to still think its somehow constitutional—none of your arguments are based on any real legal reasoning.
but more to the point it was arizonans who passed the law in the offensive manner that it was written knowing it was going to be used to target latinos—so what else can we say except that it’s racist.
Eh I wouldn't go so far
I know the law has been partially enjoined but I don’t think it’s been ruled unconstitutional yet. I also don’t recall it being a proposition the people voted on.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
ECCD everyone. ECCD.
Every chance to clown dunleavy
by yobo on Sep 8, 2010 12:03 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Haha
I should have known when I saw 53 new comments in a Suns preview thread.
Ah well, at least it isn’t 1,553.
Yet…
There will be no extra point!
LOL I sincerely hope it doesn’t go that far. But I don’t think this is very controversial. Seventy percent of the nation supports Arizona’s right to control illegal immigration. There’s a reason they call it illegal immigration.
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And 70% of America opposes the Mosque 2 blocks away from Ground Zero on Islamophobic grounds. The general public’s opinion on something is rather meaningless. The majority don’t educate themselves on issues.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
No, it’s not Islamophobic grounds. It’s humanitarian grounds. I realize that imam has a right to build whatever he wants; I’m not for the government stopping him. At the same time, a lot of people died at ground zero and building a mosque in the same name that was praised by the terrorists as they flew into those buildings, murdering 3000 unarmed civilians is a slap in the face. Crazily, I’m against slapping people in the face whose families were murdered. I think that’s really, really wrong.
There are Muslims that are against that mosque being built, as a matter of fact:
Now, if SHE wanted to build a Mosque near ground zero, I would be okay with that. But this corrupt imam won’t even condemn Hamas, which is unacceptable.
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I'll take Hamas over Israel.
At least they don’t get their country founded on the holocaust then use similar concentration camps on Palestineans, and deny the Armenian Genocide. Israel is an incredibly selfish country.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Use similar concentration camps on Palestinians, huh? Do you have any evidence for that, or are you just working for the terrorists? The Israelis aren’t blowing up women and children and their goal isn’t to kill every man woman and child in any country, even countries whose goal is to do that to them. Hamas’s goal is genocide, just like the Naziis and have been influenced by Nazi (and Communist) propaganda. They are also on a “holy war” to destroy Israel, motivated by their need to “prove” that they are the real chosen people.
Seriously, you a frontman for terrorists or something?
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he's fairly young Naticus
Not saying “hey stop arguing with him” but it might be better to go easy on the “are you a terrorist” rhetoric.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I didn’t say he’s a terrorist. I asked a rhetorical question about whether he supports terrorists or not, and in fact, he does. Look at what he wrote.
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I know you didn't say he is a terrorist
it might be better to go easy on the "are you a terrorist" rhetoric.
Is that seriously misconstruing what you said?
Seriously, you a frontman for terrorits or something?
Maybe I should have left off the quote lines (I tend to use blockquotes when I quote people here) but I would like to say I never said that you said he is a terrorist, I was talking about the rhetoric.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
He’s not so young that he can’t be held responsible for saying monstrous things. I can’t even repeat what he said, because it sounds like Nazi propaganda, literally. It makes me sick. You go soft on monsters-in-the-making, they’ll grow up to be monsters. Just tell the truth: this kid sounds like a frontman for terrorists.
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Just tell the truth: this kid sounds like a frontman for terrorists.
haha, christian terrorists, jewish terrorists or muslim terrorists? (Hard to tell all these religious nuts apart)
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Fair enough
I must admit, I am somewhat amazed by the arguement myself.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Yes, it as shocking. Absolutely awful. Tells you what kind of dangerous messages are being spread by European socialists, extremists Muslims and the American far left (no offense to the moderate left; no harm intended on you).
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sorry but not a liberal
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, anyone that would buy into the mindless political dogma that would motivate one to be against this law must have some motivation from somewhere. Perhaps you can explain why it is that you’re putting left-wing political dogma and partisanship above the safety and well-being of U.S. citizens.
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lol and I am the one partaking in propaganda? Interesting
Keep throwing mud slick. I was unaware that Westlaw and Lexisnexus we’re such terrible places. I am also amused by the fact you keep trying so very hard to pull “why” I happened to research this. Believe it or not, it was for work and it was months ago, I just had some of my research still back at home (and no I don’t work for the ACLU, a Democrat, or a liberal think tank if that’s what you are going to assume.)
By the way, totally fine if you disagree with my on the Constitutional questions but if you are going to go counter to well known precedent with some of your statements, you might want to cite the case you are using.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Those precedents don’t apply here, because the state law reflects Federal law.
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hmmm I was unaware the Feds allowed citizens to sue the police under the federal law, interesting
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
People need to check their facts before demonizing and politicizing life and death issues. I’m sick of this crap.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions
Hah, I went a little far on the hyperbole rant there. However, Israel is a terrible, hypocritical country. When you are a country founded because of the Holocaust, and you deny the Armenian Genocide while treating the Palestineans like dirt (even though it’s their land), you support genocide. It cannot get any more hypocritical than that.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Israel is not terrible and is no more hypocritical than any other nation.
I have no idea what you’re talking about with the “Armenian Genocide.”
Palestine is not the land of the Palestinians. The Arabs destroyed the holy land due to their corrupt politicians, and no one wanted it. The Jews legally moved there, peacefully and the Arabs attacked them.
The Palestinians are not treated like dirt. They have more rights in Israel than they do in their home country of Jordan, from where they were exiled (more than half of “Palestinians” are Jordanian exiles). In fact, they are allowed to vote and are basically free, other than not being allowed to continue to murder Jews. The people of Palestine have supported Genocidal maniacs as their leaders and have done nothing nor spoken a word against the murder of Jewish civilians, women and children included.
The Jews, considering their small population, have had the equivalent of 9/11 on their land over and over, decade after decade. But to mindless drones like you, they’re the bad guys. Enjoy your kool-aid.
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See this is the problem.
You act like you are so educated on the subject yet you don’t even know about one of Israel’s staunchest positions. They deny the Armenian Genocide ever happened, yet they tell people to boycott Iran for denying the Holocaust?
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 7:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Seriously? You think that is the reason Israel is trying to boycott Iran?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
They make a HUGE DEAL about it.
They were founded because of the holocaust yet they deny that the first modern genocide ever happened. They say “never again” but really what they mean is “never again to us, i don’t care if happens to someone else, I’m selfish ol’ Israel”.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
What?
You are mixing stuff up here Gov. Again, you think the main reason Iran is boycotting Iran is just because of denying the Holocaust? You don’t think it might have to do more with, gee I don’t know, the fact that Iran funds Hamas with money and weapons, and the fact that Iran is building up nuclear capabilities in the region and the fact that the president of Iran has threatened to wipe Israel off the planet, or the fact that the fundamentalists have made a power grab within Iran? You really think Israel’s main reason for the boycott has to do with an arguement over the Holocaust or fear of all out war?
(As a sidenote, not really positive why the Armenian genocide is being denied but (a) it’s a real random and obscure arguement regardless and (b) I get the feeling it has more to do with politics in the region than you realize – stuff like national security, which tends to be one of those issues that most countries give top priority)
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Sorry if it sounded like i was defending Iran.
Iran sucks. Let me make that clear. They suck more than Israel. But as a civilized country, with a rather large history with genocide, there is no excuse whatsoever to deny the Armenian Genocide.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually I think, given the state of Iran, is pretty much the one country in the world that could have a somewhat legitimate excuse for it.
I get it, Recep Tayyip Erdogan is a nut but I also find it interesting that you think Israel can somehow afford losing favor with Turkery, the only other region military power in the Middle East not named Iran. You are basically asking the country of Israel to risk being wiped off the face of the Earth in the name of the Armenians. Noble yes, but suicidal as well. Leave it to the EU, especially given Turkey’s attempts to try and get membership.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
er "Israel is pretty much the one country ..."
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I don’t deny it; I just have no idea what you’re talking about. I find it odd that so many people are mindlessly supporting people who kill women and children. The Israelis don’t do that, but somehow they are the bad guys, huh?
It’s funny that the left loves Hollywood so much, where their movies are like, “If you kill this [insert cliche villain here], you’re as bad as he is.” But people who kill innocent women and children, no, that’s okay! They’re only killing those horrible Jews, so it’s justified!
Why do you continue to trash Israel, saying they’re worse than mindless, murderous zealots?
I’m going to guess you’re also a socialist, as the anti-Israeli sentiment and socialism go hand in hand. Not coincidentally, Germany and Italy were socialists in WWII, plus extreme racism. I guess they’ve toned it down a bit and decided to mask the racism in a bunch of political rhetoric.
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The Israelis aren’t blowing up women and children?
What do you call this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/09/gaza-palestinians-israel-evacuees-zeitoun
There’s lots more waiting for you to recognize them.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Let me restate: they aren’t (as a whole) purposely targeting women and children.
Keep in mind, whenever you see civilian casualties in Palestine, that one of their common tactics (and we see this often among extremist Muslim coward… no offense to moderate Muslims, as I have no problem with you), is to use human shields. They’re quite adept at such disgusting tactics.
That said, I’m aware that there are Israelis that have done unjust things, just like people in any nation. I’m sure some have committed serious war crimes. But that is not the policy of Israel and never has been, so far as the evidence shows. There is no evidence Israel as a whole supports the barbarism that their enemies espouse.
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I got all kinds of problems with the Israeli occupation of the West Bank
but I will never equate the people of Israel with those who systematically target civilians in suicide bombings and will never agree to peace because their sole goal is to wipe out the entire country. Sorry but not the moral equivalent. (I am specifically talking about Hamas).
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Israel is an incredibly selfish country.
They are a perfect example of “you become what you hate”
It disgusts me that the US govt. supports their actions. They just stall and stall hoping the world will lose resolve on justice for the Palestinians.
An evenhanded US policy could have created a peaceful middle east years ago, too bad money trumps morals. Jimmy Carter is one of the few politicians that understands the problem and who could provide a solution.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 8, 2010 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. Founded because of the Holocaust,
then supports Turkey in it’s war to denounce and erase the Armenian Genocide. Pathetic.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 7:59 PM PDT up reply actions
US has been extremely even handed
It’s not the US’s fault that Arafat couldn’t deliver at Camp David. Pretty sure Clinton was fairly motivated on that one.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 9, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
So I looked up the Armenian Genocide and found that the Ottoman Empire was responsible for it, and it occurred after WWI. Interestingly, it was enacted by an extremist Muslim nation. Weird, I thought you were trying to support Palestine, now you tie them to genocide again.
During WWII, Yasser Arafat’s uncle was Hitler’s man, pushing the Nazis to commit genocide against the Jews. Mohammed himself promoted the murder of Jews, because they wouldn’t convert to Islam.
So this doesn’t really support your point of view. I’m aware that there have been multiple attempts at genocide in history, but the systematic use of propaganda against the Jews was unprecedented in modern times. The hatred of Jews is still prevalent in Europe and the mid-east, largely due to Nazi and communist propaganda. It’s funny how European socialism and anti-Israeli sentiment are a package deal. All the socialist websites trash Israel incessantly.
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You need to educate yourself on the Armenian Genocide a bit more. There are quotes of Hitler justifying what he was doing because the Turks did it to the Armenian’s and no one stopped it. The Turks had their own versions of concentration camps (they forced Armenians on a death march through the Syrian deserts, put the remaining in caves, and put poisonous gas in cave. Yeah, this was the crime that inspired the Holocaust yet the descendants of Holocaust survivors deny this? Their country denies this? You cannot get any more selfish and hypocritical than that. If you still can’t see this, (you haven’t been open to change in a long time it appears) i can’t do anymore. Those are the facts. Israel commits (and committed) horrible crimes against the Palestinean people, and worst of all, has celebrated genocide (that is the term when you deny genocide and support it’s perpetrators) in the face of the Armenian people time and time again.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Just curious
How has Israel supported its perpetrators?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
They support Turkey on the issue, and just in general.
Notice how all the other European Countries don’t want Turkey in the EU, and even countries like France have laws against denying the Armenian Genocide. Israel has not been nuetral on the issue, they have supported Turkey’s propaganda (a similar propaganda used against Jews by Nazis; more hypocrisy on Israel’s part) to it’s people, and against Armenia. It’s really just pathetic on Israel’s part.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
seriously, you can't figure out what Israel sticks out in the countries you listed.
Pull out your geography book.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
So if Germany denied the Holocaust and if the Armenia denied the Holocaust because it kept their relationship s strong, then it's ok. No, you are supporting actions that are detrimental to the future of this planet. If you deny/celebrate genocide,
it’ll keep happening.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Nope not the same thing.
I’ll tell you what, I’ll play the imaginary game. If England was threatening to weaponize uranium and had fringe groups in other countries surrounding Germany and threatening shooting missles into Germany and performing suicide bombings in German clubs and the PM declared that Germany needed to be wiped off the planet …
And on top of it, all of a sudden France decided to deny anything they did to the Albians, I think I could understand if Germany went along with France’s denials given they could easily be whiped out.
That would be a more apt comparison. It would be very noble for Germany and also very stupid of the government to act in that way given they would be severly risking the lives of the entire population of the country.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
I am amazed you are still using the term "celebrate genocide"
totally inflammatory and a complete cheap shot at it’s worst
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
sorry
at it’s best
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
It's not.
They are celebrating genocide.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
They also do it to Palestineans.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Did you ever see the video of the Israelis boarding the ship and getting beaten half to death? The goal here was to bring more weapons and comfort to terrorists. How about if the Turks decided to go and bring a boat next to New York right after 9/11? Then we ask them not to, and they don’t listen to us? We would’ve done the same thing. Israel, as I said, has suffered 9/11 after 9/11, inflicted by mindless, murderous zealots.
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Did you ever see the video of the Israelis boarding the ship and getting beaten half to death?
as all pirates boarding ships on the high seas should?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions
The Israelis weren’t on the ship to rape or steal, Skeptic. They boarded it in the interest of protecting Israel from terrorism. The whole point of that ship was political, a means to stop Israelis from protecting their seas. Even if the Turkish vessel was on a peaceful mission in the short run, the long-term effect of forcing the Israelis to let any ship pass would result in more aid and comfort to terrorists who kill and murder without shame or remorse.
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The Israelis weren’t on the ship to rape or steal, Skeptic. They boarded it in the interest of protecting Israel from terrorism.
It was in international water, not subject to Israeli whims.
If Israel wants to protect it’s people from terrorists they should stop doing the things that justify terrorism. Downtrodden populations will fight with what ever means they have at hand, one persons terrorist is another persons patriot.
The first step would be for them to denounce the right wing Israeli"settler" who are agitating for more war with their expansion of territories, next let the Palestinians return to their legal lands, let them go back to work so they can feed their families, and show some respect for the lives of non Jews.
Both sides of this conflict have lots to change about heir attitudes but we come out looking like the bad guys by supporting only Israel and by not forcing them to accept a real peace, not a peace only on their terms.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
It was in international water, not subject to Israeli whims.
research naval blockades.
If Israel wants to protect it’s people from terrorists they should stop doing the things that justify terrorism.
You honestly think that people are pushed to be suicide bombers or to say they will wipe a country off the map because it is our holy land? That’s not desperation that’s thinking you have a divine right.
by supporting only Israel
The US has bent over backwards to support Palentians, particularly in the Clinton years. What did people expect to happen when Hamas gained power? Hamas has the main goal of whiping out the country and in rallies they tout with excitement the fact that nukes are coming.
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions
Wally, I apologize for calling you a liberal; I was clearly wrong.
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He didn't say anything that was necessarily liberal or not liberal
He just knows a little bit about history. Do you just think that all stupid people are liberals?
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
The terrorists are at war with the terrorists, because the terrorists are at war with them. That they are forced to control the ships that come in to fight that war is the fault of the terrorists.
How about if Turkey wold respect the Israeli’s right to defend themselves, instead of beating them half to death for doing so.
Clearly, it’s the guys getting beaten half to death by the “peaceful” protesters. Of course, that’s what any peaceful boat of people would do! An Israeli soldier drops in and the whole crew starts beating the crap out of them. Obviously, the Turks meant no harm… other than to beat Israelis to death with pipes and chairs.
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Good to know, I was unaware that the US was acting like pirates during the Cuban Missle Crisis
It was a Naval blockade.
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Your source also claims that Zionists were responsible for the Holocaust. Why are you spreading anti-Israel propaganda, especially given the history? Don’t you know that America promise on its honor, “Never again,” after the Holocaust? We stood by and watched, allowing many to die before stepping in. We didn’t get into the war to save the Jews, either. We got into it in response to Pearl Harbor.
America loses all credibility and honor, when we don’t guard against such lies and propaganda, which lead to the original holocaust. While you spread propaganda that the Jews are terrible for supposedly denying the Armenian Holocaust (and you lack evidence for this), you’re simultaneously engaging in the very actions that led to the original Jewish Holocaust.
I’m frightened that you’re not able to see the awful state of your soul, man. You’re sick.
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I’m frightened that you’re not able to see the awful state of your soul, man. You’re sick.
While I agree with everything else you said, this is a step too far.
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 9, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe it’s a little too far, but I don’t think so. After studying the history of the human race, and knowing how it repeats itself, I’ve come to see spreading lies about “others” as monstrous. It also led to slavery and countless other atrocities against virtually every group that was “too” different.
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I should clarify that his particular lies involve propping up murderers, minimizing the holocaust, accusing the Jews themselves of actiing like Nazis with “concentration camps” (in his words). All of that together tells me that he’s growing into a monster, just like a very large portion of humanity has throughout history.
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I don’t think someone that he disagrees with telling him that his soul is in an awful state and that he is sick is going to change do that much. He has said a lot of crap that isn’t true, but it sounds more like he’s misguided than “turning into a monster.”
I must look like a dork.
by Reverend_Randy on Sep 9, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
He doesn’t seem so misguided as self-motivated to listen to and spread propaganda. While it’s possible for him to be a victim and perpetrator at the same time, does that change the state of his character? If he’s the type of person with “itching ears” to hear any bad story about the Jews and actively spread those stories without evidence, it indicates that he is hate-filled. What’s worse, he wants to spread his rage and intolerance to others. That kind of behavior literally leads to war. Words can be extremely dangerous, and it’s fortunate we live in the U.S. where we have free speech to stand up to this crap.
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I don't try to spread ill of jews. Are you serious.
I’m telling the truth. Israel deny’s the Armenian Genocide, and thus they celebrate the Armenian Genocide. I find it especially hypocritical that their motto is ," Never Again", yet they clearly aren’t attempting to stop Genocide unless it pertains to them.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Evidence please. Seriously, stop just saying it and giving me a link to some other random guy saying it. Give me an authoritative source that indicates that the state of Israel has officially denied the deaths of those Armenians.
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Are you serious? Do i have to ask you to just look up basic information?
I’ll do it, but you are being so ignorant right now, but then again i should have seen this after your comments about Palestine, Ground Zero Mosque, Mexico, Arizona’s new law, Obama, etc.
And Israeli Foreign Minister did so too.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh so NOW you don't respond.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I never said denial of deaths.
It’s called denial of genocide. Turkey acknowledges death happened, but that it wasn’t genocide.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions
So the dispute is over the term
genocideand not whether the deaths occurred or not?
Sounds like you’re angry at Israel over semantics, which is just stupid. Don’t you think it’s a little different, when Iran says the Holocaust never happened, meaning the deaths never occurred and SOME Israelis saying that perhaps the word genocide isn’t called for in the Turkish circumstance?
Perhaps, they’re trying to say that those murders weren’t as heinous as the murder of Israelis (and they weren’t).
So I see their purely academic and semantical point here, but I don’t see them as “Holocaust Deniers.”
It seems this is mere propaganda, equivocating. These people who think the word genocide is uncalled for are not denying the deaths occurred, so I have no problem with it.
Your sense of morality is horrendous, condemning Israel and getting angry about semantics, pretending like its comparable to what the anti-Semites have done and continue to do, lying and spreading propaganda.
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Yeah you just won't admit you're wrong.
You are extremely conservative and you aren’t going to change your views on Israel because it is a neo con country.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Again
You are basically asking the country of Israel to risk being wiped off the face of the Earth in the name of the Armenians. Noble yes, but suicidal as well. Leave it to the EU, especially given Turkey’s attempts to try and get membership.
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions
By the way
Your sig line sorta sucks
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 10:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Eh i'm a big stones fan.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps, they’re trying to say that those murders weren’t as heinous as the murder of Israelis (and they weren’t).
Why would you say Israli lives are worth more than Albanian or any other person’s life? Why are you so blind?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
totally not the issue
First thing, it was Turkey that caused the genocide and it’s a horrible horrible thing. I would like to point out that Israel is playing a different role in this than Iran is with the Holocast.
Iran does not only officially deny the Holocaust but has actually funded public projects and debates in fact taking a stance it never happened and saying it;’s a lie. Israel is not acknowleding what happened in Turkey, which is awful in of itself, but not the same (the truly awful thing I would argue actually would be lobbying the US not to acknowledge it but as I said above I can at least understand why this happened)
It’s also important to note that the world really doesn’t focus on Iran’s policy in regards to the Holocaust in a vacuum but because Iran is a neighboring country that funds Hamas and funds suicide bombings and is a religious state that is trying to obtain nukes and has opening said it will wipe Israel off the map. All of this plus the denial of the Holocaust matters in the context.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Israel is not acknowleding what happened in Turkey,
I don’t think this is true. There is a lack of evidence for this. I think they generally don’t use the term holocaust to describe it, but I don’t think that constitutes a refusal to acknowledge it.
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Unfortunately now I am out of time but yeah it does appear true that Israel doesn't official acknowledge it
And they have lobbied heavily in the US for us not to acknowledge it for a long time.
And no I do not think it is the moral equivalent of what Iran is doing or what the Nazis did and, although I would agree it helps futher promulgate an injustice to the Armenians who have been screwed over, I (a) don’t think Israeli’s are celebrating it (b) can understand their primary concerns in these matters and © am baffled why everyone gets so riled up about Israel’s position when it is Turkey that is responsible.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
I still want sources for this, if you don’t mind. It’s one thing to not officially acknowledge it, but why should they?
They’re not officially denying it either, so I don’t have a problem. I also don’t have a problem with them trying to influence the United States to treat the Armenian situation as if its the same as the Jewish holocaust.
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Why would you say Israli lives are worth more than Albanian or any other person’s life?
A strawman argument.
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A strawman argument.
so now you are saying that wasn’t your statement ? Why post if you have no credibility?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
so now you are saying that wasn’t your statement ?
It was not my statement. Exactly.
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those murders weren’t as heinous as the murder of Israelis (and they weren’t).
so "and they weren’t " doesn’t refer to the murders? Are you just confused?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Saying one murder is more heinous than another is not making a claim that one set of victims’ lives was more valuable than another.
Work on your reading comprehension, friend.
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Saying one murder is more heinous than another is not making a claim that one set of victims’ lives was more valuable than another.
Yes it does mean that.If you really value Albanians as much as Jews you wouldn’ t be able to say that their deaths by genocide were less heinous ? Your religion has really failed to give you a moral compass, maybe you should flip to another and try again :>) I hear the muslims are rigid and anti gay?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Be quiet.
I am descendent of Armenian’s who were brutally murdered by Turks, and today we don’t even have recognition from the Jewish Nation that the crimes even happened. I have a right to a opinion instead of having an insensitive, right wing troll question everything i say.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Why do you need official recognition from the Jews? I think it’s a political dispute about the word “genocide,” where perhaps the Jews feel that’s an overstatement. Furthermore, there could be academic reasons to not make an official statement. You have to illustrate that they are DENYING the event happened, as opposed to not just officially recognizing the event.
If they are denying it, as a state (and not invidually), then you have a case the state of Israel is at fault. But I don’t tihnk you have that evidence.
I’m insensitive, huh? Just imagine how WWII veterans and Jewish holocaust survivors would feel about your comments. I’m just standing up to your hatred, which apparently hurts your feelings. Frankly, I don’t care. If you can’t stand the heat, stop spreading your hatred around.
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While you spread propaganda that the Jews are terrible for supposedly denying the Armenian Holocaust (and you lack evidence for this), you’re simultaneously engaging in the very actions that led to the original Jewish Holocaust.
Where do I say Jews? I said Israel. Israel is a bad country. Hey Iran is a terrible country but I don’t have anything against Persians. Putting words in my mouth once again Naticus the Right Winger.
And considering Israel denies the Armenian Genocide, wouldn’t that be enough evidence that they deny it?
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think Israel is any worse than any European country or the U.S. You have no evidence that they are.
Please prove the Israelis are denying the Armenian Genocide. I don’t want to hear more propaganda. I want facts.
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I don’t think Israel is any worse than any European country or the U.S. You have no evidence that they are.
WTF, we were just discussing that we go out of our way to let aliens live in our country while israel won’t even let Palestinian Israelis return to their own lands? All these religious states are wacko just like the religious nut jobs here in the us but at least here we still abide by law and majority rule instead of state sponsored religion.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Palestinians are largely Jordanian exiles, and Israel captured land after being attacked. Israel is not a religious state, by the way. They’re mostly secular.
The Palestinians have more rights and are treated more humanely by the Israeli government than the rest of the Arab world treats their citizens. That’s saying something, since the Palestinians only joy in life is MURDERING the people that are protecting their rights.
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You’re a very angry man.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions
he has a point though
Nobody treates the Palestinians well there, they all use the Palestinian cause to further their own agendas and treat the Palestinians like dirt.
(Now I will disagree with painting all Palestians as all taking joy as Murders but then again if I were to go down that road then I have to correct every single misconception about Israelis.)
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Presenting an argument that you strongly disagree with is making YOU angry, not me. I’m not angry (at least, not in this case).
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Naticus you seem to be an angry guy after reading alot of your comments. You also show little to no sensitivity unless it is for the fellow rightwingers.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
I show sensitivity toward the victims of 9/11 and the people of Arizona who are in serious danger.
People arguing on basketball forum aren’t in need of sensitivity in the same way.
You call me mean, but you want the Israelis and Arizonans to be subject to violence and murder. I am against violence and murder.
Who’s the mean one?
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The descendants of Holocaust victims deny this? Evidence please? Why would they deny it at all? I don’t see how the Armenian genocide is relevant at all. It seems like a red herring to me.
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They deny it. How can a country like Israel deny the Armenian Genocide when they are a country that was founded because of Genocide. Their trademark is “never again”. Well stop it, don’t be hypocritical. Stop injustice pertaining to Genocide instead of denying it happened in this case.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I said I was done, but that was with immigration. One comment on this as well.
People’s feelings on sensitive matters, no matter how correct or incorrect, are to be acknowledged and treated carefully. The 9/11 victims’ irrational grudge against all Muslims (which by the way, does not seem to come from the victims, it seems more to emanate from prominent political figures during election time) for the act of a few is to be weighed against the rights of Muslims to exist and have the same rights as others.
I think it is really, really wrong to deny people the same freedoms me and you enjoy because certain people associate them with the worst stereotypes of their chosen religion. If these were actual terrorists linked to the attack trying to build something near Ground Zero, then those people are not innocent and should not be given the same freedoms. But these are just citizens, being denied something based on the Islamophobia of politicians (which is sickening) and a select few 9/11 victims (which is somewhat more understandable, but never justifiable).
German Nazis were responsible for the deaths of many in my extended family. If a German club in my college wants to have a German culture day, and I was still resentful (I am not), should I be able to restrict that? Hell no.
Quoting Muslims who are against it is an odd way of saying it is not Islamophobic, that’s like saying someone has a black friend so they cannot be racist.
Do you agree with the Ole Miss having the team name “Rebels”? That, though some say it represents Southern pride to THEM, represents a history of inhumane practices and slavery to others. What about the others, do we respect their feelings, or their ancestors who were murdered? Or are you going to figure out a way to claim that this is different?
And please, unlike Skeptic, make your points, but don’t leave them open-ended. You can have the last word, you can personally attack me (again), all I ask is you make it final, or continue the debate with somebody else.
I know I am not Naticus but he did have a pretty large qualifier in his arguement above
No, it’s not Islamophobic grounds. It’s humanitarian grounds. I realize that imam has a right to build whatever he wants; I’m not for the government stopping him.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
Oh , I guess I interpreted that last part incorrectly, about it being “unacceptable”. I thought “it” was building the mosque and I consider unacceptable to be definitive language, so I thought he was just overriding his own point.
My bad though. Discard that part of argument, keep the other part. Good call Wally.
I’m saying it’s morally unacceptable and outrageous. But I am not the judge, jury or anything of the sort. Not my job to stop them, and I don’t think that any law that we have can stop them. So we should just let them be huge douchebags.
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Thank-you. If the guy had gone around and personally talked to the families of 9/11 to get their permission first, that would be building bridges. But he is tone-deaf to their point of view and continues to demand that his religion be put above the sacred ground of 9/11 and the sacred ground of mourning loved ones.
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Not my job to stop them, and I don’t think that any law that we have can stop them. So we should just let them be huge douche bags
or just let them go about their lives as they see fit instead of how our politicians see fit? If it was a baptist church they’d be all for it despite the Christian provocations against the world that helped cause 911?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 9, 2010 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, genius, the Christians caused 9/11. How, may I ask, did Christians cause it? What is wrong with you? It couldn’t have been at least partly due to Hollywood or the Left’s reinforcing of the stereo-type that we’re a bunch of hedonistic, anti-religious, elitist snobs.
It couldn’t possibly due to the failed societies in the Arab states, leaving them poor, the lack of education, the anger and hatred that is spread through propaganda. That wasn’t the cause. It was Christians.
It has nothing to do with Arab hatred of Israel and our support of Israel. It has nothing to do with the 1000’s of years of Muslims conquering and forcing Islam onto people. Every Muslim country in the world, except one, was forced to become Islamic. They were conquered.
To the extremists, you either convert or die, so I suppose it’s the Christians’ “fault” for not converting, I suppose. I’ll happily concede that point.
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the Christian provocations against the world that helped cause 911?
No clue where you got that from.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions
No clue where you got that from?
from a little thing called world history, read it sometime you might like it.
11th, 12th and 13th centuries, Crusade invaders take the Holy Land from the Muslims.
After World War I European colonial powers carved up the Ottoman Empire into arbitrary states and hand-picked leaders who owed their political power and wealth to the British and French causing a dramatic rise in Arab nationalism.
The end of World War 2 the west established the state of Israel — right in the heart of the Arab Middle East.
American support of wealthy, corrupt royal families in the Middle East caused a new wave of Islamic fundamentalism to challenge U.S.-backed Middle Eastern leaders who had protected American access to oil.
The Persian Gulf War when the Saudi royal family allowed Americans to attack Iraq from Saudi soil. After the war, some 7, 000 U.S. soldiers remained in Saudi Arabia, which desecrated Islam’s most sacred sites
and the beat goes on. Now we’re siding with Israeli inhumanities against their fellow man and going against the UN and world opinion simply because the Israelis have rich friends buying votes in the good ole USA. I guess the Arabs have too much pride to send their money over here to buy their own corrupt politicians? Who’s taking the low road in this one, the poor terrorist or the rich bastards who made him?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Why are the Crusades more the fault of the Christians than the Muslims? They were both equally at fault. Also, that was not the United States engaging in the Crusades. In fact, I don’t know if you know this, but we’re not a theocracy! Amazing, huh? So murdering random, unarmed people, who weren’t particularly Christian, doesn’t seem at all like it was cause by the Crusades.
Right in the heart of Arab Middle East? That might be because Israel is in the middle-east, and Jews have lived their for thousands and thousands of years, even after most of them were driven out by tyrants.
Furthermore, the place made sense, because it had gone to pot, destroyed by corruption and no one wanted to live there. It was sparsely populated, lived upon intermittently by nomads.
Israelis began moving their legally and peacefully.
Why do libs go on and on about supposed Israeli inhumanities, when it’s the Islamofascists that are killing women and children due to religious zeal and belief in antisemetic propaganda?
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the west established
European colonial powers
American support of wealthy, corrupt royal families
Americans to attack Iraq from Saudi soil
friends buying votes in the good ole USA
Even if I were to assume there was a cause and effect going on in these examples, how are these examples Christian provocations? You are talking about Europe countires and the US acting as nations. Countires with many different religions in them. I find it pretty silly to argue this is all the doing of catholics. Seems to me these are actions of westernized capitalist societies, not the work of a religion.
11th, 12th and 13th centuries, Crusade invaders take the Holy Land from the Muslims.
Really, you think we the USA brought 9/11 upon ourselves because of the Crusades, which happened a solid 600 years before the US was even created and almost 1,000 years ago? You think that is what really stings? Do the Jewish people bring attacks from Catholics upon themselves because they killed Jesus?
Who’s taking the low road in this one, the poor terrorist or the rich bastards who made him?
Man I wish I didn’t have to cut this short but I would like to point out that I do not think the poor people of Palestine, the civilians not engaged in violence, deserve what they are getting, but I do find it amazing that we pretend people are somehow driven to the point of suicide bombings. It is not out of despair but out of martydom.
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s ironic that you would say this:
People’s feelings on sensitive matters, no matter how correct or incorrect, are to be acknowledged and treated carefully.
Followed by such an insensitive and bigoted statement like this:
The 9/11 victims’ irrational grudge against all Muslims
You sound just as insensitive to the victims of 9/11 as that arrogant, self-serving imam.
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I do feel for them, my uncle was extremely affected as he was in the WTC that day (thank god he went outside a little before the attacks). Like I said, my sensitivity to their feelings will go up to a line, and not across it. My line is infringing upon the rights (in this case freedom of religion) of another citizen (not terrorist, who have forfeited their rights). I would say the same thing to my uncle (though he does not feel that way). Besides, that parentheses after was implying that I am not sure how many actually hold that grudge.
Feel me? You don’t have to agree, it seems to me that your line is at a different point, and at this point if someone changes either of our minds, it will not be the other person, that much is for sure.
You’re still a mean, mean person though.
Agreed.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
If you’re so sensitive to their feelings, perhaps you can explain why you would publicly accuse them of bigotry and hatred.
What a load of crap.
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Regardless of belilaugh's sensitive feelings that you are so engaged in here
Like I said, my sensitivity to their feelings will go up to a line, and not across it. My line is infringing upon the rights (in this case freedom of religion) of another citizen (not terrorist, who have forfeited their rights).
Is this necessarily a load of crap?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions
This isn’t freedom of religion; no one in this debate is opposed to Muslim worship. It’s about this one individual stubbornly insisting on building a mosque in the same name as the terrorists’ murders, at the site of those murders.
What if “Christians”, back in the time of the crusades, decided to build a big church at the site of a massacre of civilians? Would that be freedom of religion or an abomination? I’d say the latter.
If nothing else, it looks like they’re building a monument to the victory of the terrorists. This particular Imam didn’t read in the Koran: “Build a mosque at the site of the murder of thousands of people.”
He just decided to build it there himself; in that sense, it’s a monument to HIMSELF, not his religion. Nice of him to build a monument to himself, regardless of how many victims of 9/11 he slaps in the face along the way.
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Shooting from the hip real quick but
What if "Christians", back in the time of the crusades, decided to build a big church at the site of a massacre of civilians? Would that be freedom of religion or an abomination? I’d say the latter.
If they preached the justification of that massacre and were engaging in funding such massacres then yes I would think it an abomination yes (with Rauf yes I would agree the junk with the Flotillas is frustrating). If they openly spoke against the massacre, kept their books open to the public, and were willing to continue to engage with the public, I would think it still a freedom of religion issue yes. (I guess in reality I think of it more as a security vs. freedom of religion issue)
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
This particular Imam, while he didn’t justify 9/11, he blamed the United States for it and refuses to condemn terrorist groups, thereby refusing to condemn violence in general.
Again, the location is the issue, not the religion. They can worship anywhere and however they want, but building a gigantic mosque at this site is disgusting and isn’t about religion but entitlement.
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is entitlement the right word?
Not knocking your opinion, I just get the feeling that wasn’t the word you meant to use.
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
but building a gigantic mosque at this site is disgusting and isn’t about religion but entitlement.
Haha, It’s not AT the site it’s TWO fricking city blocks away. You want to draw the line at THREE blocks?
Face it, you are all for freedom of religion as long as your religion calls the shots, just like you are all for gay marriage as long as no actual gays can actually get married :>)
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Its too close. How about 10 blocks. That seems fair.
Face it, you are all for freedom of religion as long as your religion calls the shots
Bullcrap. I was against that minister burning Korans, too. I don’t consider that freedom of religion either, but similar to what this imam is doing, he’s just being a butt.
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Its too close. How about 10 blocks. That seems fair.
You wanna draw a line 10 blocks away and ban ALL churches of any kind then I’d be all for it. Hell I’d go 100 miles with no problem. As long as they are all treated equally in this so called free country I’m satisfied since I don’t believe in any of them.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Other churches have nothing to do with the terrorists’ religion, so there if Hindus, Jews, Christians or Scientologists want to build there, I won’t be too upset. I don’t believe in arbitrary equal treatment; I believe in justice and fairness.
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Other churches have nothing to do with the terrorists’ religion
neither apparently does this church.You think the govt. would let them exist in this atmosphere if they could find any shred of a link to terrorist? This is probably the cleanest church in the country right now.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Other than the fact that its a Muslim Church that follows Allah, the same name the terrorists murdered in? Yeah, there’s no logical connection here.
Granted, this connection is fairly superficial, but then again, it’s still obvious. I’m not saying this church=terrorism. I’m saying this Imam is a real SOB for sending such a message, superficial or not.
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. I’m not saying this church=terrorism. I’m saying this Imam is a real SOB for sending such a message, superficial or not.
or he’s actually trying to build a bridge between differing religions? of course most religions would be too stupid to cross it and would choose to wade across shark infested waters instead?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s aware that 70% of New York is against this, but he insists on doing it anyway. That’s not building bridges, and you know it. It’s creating division, resentment and hostility.
That makes me very suspicious that his real intent is to mark the territory as a victorious battle site.
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Evidence? Or more bull?
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
C’mon, religion is absolutely at issue. If religion wasn’t at issue then nobody would care about the location at all. We can’t ignore the fact that the 9/11 hijackers were in fact religious zealots of the same religion, it’s pretty fundamental to the whole arguement.
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by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions
But it’s not a freedom of religion issue; freedom of religion is about allowing people to practice their religion, not build buildings in particular locations.
This is simply about fundamental morality, as in do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It’s a matter of respect.
I wouldn’t build a Christian Church at a site where extremist Christians murdered a bunch of civilians. That would be horrendous.
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it’s not a freedom of religion issue; freedom of religion is about allowing people to practice their religion, not build buildings in particular locations.
ok, let me tell you where to stick your church building? why should you be treated any different than the muslims?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions
You CAN tell me where to stick my church building, provided people of my church murdered thousands of civilians near the area where I’m trying to build.
In fact, you wouldn’t have to tell me. Any idiot knows that’s a very divisive and insensitive thing to do.
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You CAN tell me where to stick my church building, provided people of my church murdered thousands of civilians near the area where I’m trying to build.
well if you have any evidence against these people go present it to homeland security. I’m pretty sure they’ve been vetted and found innocent or there would be no plans to build their church.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Evidence that 3000 people died at the site, murdered by Muslims? They already know that. I don’t need to prove it.
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Evidence that 3000 people died at the site, murdered by Muslims?
well how many Iraqis have been murdered by Americans in the last decade? we are not all responsible for acts carried out by our fellow countrymen or members of our religions. I’m pretty sure I could find some Muslims that are more peaceful than some Americans.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:37 PM PDT up reply actions
So you think Americans have specifically targeted civilians, not just as part of a war, but because we just wanted to murder civilians.
Furthermore, let’s assume Americans did murder a bunch of civilians. Should we build the church of america at the site of those murders and insist, “This is freedom of religion!”
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, let’s assume Americans did murder a bunch of civilians. Should we build the church of America at the site of those murders
of course we should, for atonement. we are not the same Americans that murdered the poor souls so our church would show respect to them.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions
, let’s assume Americans did murder a bunch of civilians. Should we build the church of America at the site of those murders
of course we should, for atonement. we are not the same Americans that murdered the poor souls so our church would show respect to them.
This pretty well speaks for itself; most people have enough emotional maturity to understand how wrong this would be. It doesn’t need to be explained to everyone what’s wrong with this.
And, it’s incredibly wrong.
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most people have enough emotional maturity to understand how wrong this would be
isn’t forgiveness divine? or was that some other religion’s god that said that?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I have forgiven the terrorists; they’re burning in hell, I’m sure. I have no reason to be angry with them. In fact, I think that God has a way of changing people over time in the next life, so I can really feel sorry for them.
As far as this Imam, I’m not angry with him. I just think he’s a jerk, and I don’t want him trampling on the graves of 9/11 victims with his narcissistic religious zeal.
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Didn’t the Christian settlers slaughter 90% of all the American Indians? All over America? Or do they not count?
I could not resist, I apologize.
by belilaugh on Sep 10, 2010 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, they didn’t, although they might have given the chance. I personally wouldn’t call them Christians, seeing as Jesus never taught mass murder, obviously.
So how about if we built Christian churches at all the sites where many Native Americans were slaughtered? That’d be great, wouldn’t it? Yeah… I’m sure no one would mind, and everyone would be like, “Come on! Freedom of religion!”
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So how about if we built Christian churches at all the sites where many Native Americans were slaughtered?
There are probably christian churches with two blocks of many native american death sites. You wanna go find them all and protest them?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 11, 2010 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s about this one individual stubbornly insisting on building a mosque in the same name as the terrorists’ murders, at the site of those murders.
So much ignorance and islamophobia in this.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
You say THIS represents fear? :
It’s about this one individual stubbornly insisting on building a mosque in the same name as the terrorists’ murders, at the site of those murders.
What’s fearful about that statement? It’s 100% true. The terrorists murdered in the name of Allah, the imam is building a building at the site of those murders in the name of Allah. It seems to me, it’s the liars that are fearful. People telling the truth, despite the accusations of bigotry, are the brave ones.
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People telling the truth, despite the accusations of bigotry, are the brave ones
You keep leaving out the truth that it’s not at the world trade center but blocks away. Just looking for problems when none exist? That’s a common religious tactic to justify their drag on the populace.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Not just “blocks away.” It’s two blocks away. That’s right there, pretty much on top of it. That was the intent of the imam, to build it at the site.
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Not just "blocks away." It’s two blocks away.
more than one block is blocks. There’s plenty of insulation in 2 blocks of city infrastructure to keep away any muslim cooties.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s just stupid. You have no case, so you imply this about intolerance and hatred.
The fact is Muslims have mosques right next door to LDS chapels, and I have no problem with that. Many Muslims go to BYU, and I am all for that. I have worked with countless Muslims and don’t think twice about it.
Your problem is, you’re too obtuse to understand the feelings of 9/11 victims but too proud to admit it. Instead, you just point fingers at everyone else, making them out to be bad guys.
In fact, you’re a “bad guy,” in that you’re just completely insensitive. SEVENTY PERCENT of New Yorkers. These feelings are virtually ubiquitous, but you don’t get it. It has nothing to do with “Muslim cooties.”
Again, see the youtube video below of a Muslim who gets this 100%. Seems like a great lady.
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Your problem is, you’re too obtuse to understand the feelings of 9/11 victims
I understand that they need to put the blame where it belongs and not put it on their Muslim neighbors.
People get killed for all kinds of reasons every day and they are all just as dead as if a terrorist killed them. You wanna ban garages next to your house because a drunk driver killed someone down the block?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHg9gzo9o-U
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By the way, this has nothing to do with freedom of religion. Stop watching MSNBC or whatever Kool-Aid channel you’re tuning into.
It’s about the location of a mosque, the attitude of the man behind it and his irrationally stubborn insistence that this gigantic facility be built just two blocks from ground zero.
The man said, shortly after 9/11, “Osama bin Ladin is made in America,” and suggested that America is partly at fault for 9/11. That’s a great thing to say RIGHT AFTER 3000 people just were murdered.
Here’s an interesting quote from the guy, giving us a clue as to why 9/11 families do not want his mosque desecrating their family’s burial ground:
“U.S. policies were an accessory to the crime that happened. We (the U.S.) have been an accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world. Osama bin Laden was made in the USA.”
He also refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organization; furthermore, he says he doesn’t understand why people are upset, which tells you how obtuse the guy is. He pretends to build bridges, but he’s really just building a temple to himself on the graves of the dead.
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Stop watching MSNBC or whatever Kool-Aid channel you’re tuning into.
24 hour news networks are the devil.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 1:19 AM PDT up reply actions
MSNBC=far left and don’t even bother hiding it.
They literally will turn a big story unflattering to the Obama administration into a story about how Glenn Beck is bad. Literally. I’m not exaggerating. It’s unwatchable for moderates and conservatives.
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Oh jeez far left propaganda is destroying the country as we speak!!!! Don’t mention the fact that Fox News is a GOP propagandist station, and that the main problems in this country are far right radicals who partake in tea party “rallys”, support Islamophobia, and racism in Arizona.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, Fox News always has people on the left representing their side, like Juan Williams and Kirsten Powers, both of whom represent the left admirably. Both are moderate left, articulate and really intelligent.
Obviously, Glenn Beck isn’t exactly a lefty (ha ha). Then again, he’s a libertarian who criticized the Republicans constantly during the Bush years and still does so.
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MSNBC=far left and don’t even bother hiding it.
I agree that MSNBC is awful. They are a 24 hour new network and are subject to my “24 hours news network” axiom.
Fox News is also subject to this. Like MSNBC, they will misreport news to fit their agenda. Having a couple liberals on their network doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of the network is awful.
It’s unwatchable for moderates and conservatives.
Yeah. Fox News is unwatchable for moderates and liberals.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think Fox News misreports news to fit their agenda (other than when their agenda involves their sponsors, which happens with every news organization).
Fox News is watched more by the combination of liberals and independents than it is watched by conservatives. The high number of independents watching Fox News belies your claim.
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The high number of independents watching Fox News belies your claim.
Independents and moderates are not the same thing. I think that most tea baggers would describe themselves as indepedent, for example.
I don’t think Fox News misreports news to fit their agenda
Well, you’re wrong. They’re just as unreliable as MSNBC. Instead of having a totally pro-Republican slant, they have a fear based message. They want you to be afraid of Obama and socialism.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
What about the Democrats watching Fox News? They comprise about 30% of the audience. As I said, people like Kirsten Powers and Juan Williams articulately and competently defend the left all the time on Fox News. Sometimes, they’re even right; if Fox has an agenda (other than ratings, credibility and money), why do they allow such a thing?
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What about the Democrats watching Fox News?
It’s probably the Daily Show’s staff looking for things they can make jokes about. I know a lot of people that watch Fox News for a laugh.
Where on the Fox News totem pole of famous and important people are Kirsten Powers and Juan Williams?
if Fox has an agenda (other than ratings, credibility and money), why do they allow such a thing?
Double secret conspiracy.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions
If you have to ask where Williams and Powers are, you’re not watching Fox News. That proves you don’t know what you’re talking about.
I rest my case.
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Of course I don't watch it
I have watched it in the past. I’ve watched it a number of times. Do you actually MSNBC? Why would you?
What I’ve seen of both is that neither of them is reliable and they’re both basically propaganda networks. Neither are worth watching. You don’t get an accurate perception of world events if either is your sole or primary source of events. That’s what it comes down to. If you think one is unbiased and the other isn’t, then you’re incapable of recognizing bias that agrees with you.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I’ve watched MSNBC a couple of times, and it made me sick it was so biased. CNN was okay, though. They’re fairly moderate, although they tend to lack insight into the point of view of the right. They don’t present it accurately.
Fox News, on the other hand, has very intelligent people on the left arguing for things I typically disagree with. I can’t believe for a second that Fox News is trying to trick people like MSNBC is.
I never said Fox is unbiased; I said they’re not trying to trick people. Furthermore, the fact that they have well-spoken, well-informed people representing the left tells me they are “fair and balanced.” That’s not the same as unbiased, but it’s really good nonetheless.
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Watch from 5:30 to 6:18, note the Fox headline. You think this was not an attempted trick?
Please don’t pull the “it’s the Daily Show so therefore the unedited footage they pulled must somehow be biased” card.
And no, I have never watched MSNBC, nor any other mainstream news station unless they are carrying something unedited. They are corrupted, and you are corrupted for believing they are at all credible (and that Juan Williams is at all a good counter. You probably thought Colmes was great as well, huh?)
Oddly, I watched that episode and actually knew what Obama was trying to say.
I don’t know if that was done on purpose or not; corporations, when it comes to $$$$ make few mistakes. BUt when it comes to the news and Sean Hannity’s show (which is not news and never pretends to be), we might expect things like this on occasion.
I thought maybe it was tongue-in-cheek, in a way. In fact, the cap and trade is the largest tax increase in U.S. history and will hurt the poor worse than anyone. In principle, he’s not misrepresenting Obama at all.
Still, I know it’s out of context, and I thought it was lame. Sean Hannity, while he is generally a good guy isn’t known for being unbiased. Of course, he’s not pretending to be.
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What about the Democrats watching Fox News?
din’t fox start out with lots of intellectual promise, Married with Children and Tracey Ulman? Then all downhill from there.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Problem is Moderates like MSNBC over Fox News by a large margin.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know if that's true
I tend to think that both networks belittle their opposition a little too much.
Naticus- I find it interesting that you think it’s okay when the right has these propaganda networks, but when the left does it, it’s not okay.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess so, but MSNBC isn’t in the business of Propaganda per se. They don’t edit clips and only show one part of a clip and obviously take it out of context.
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by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
They kinda do
they both do. MSNBC has a very pro-Obama administration slant. It’s part of the network narrative.
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by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions
When Fox leans right, they don’t pretend to be news. They have commentators who overtly admit that they’re conservative. No one makes Glenn Beck out to be a news man. He’s a commentator. Same with Hannity. MSNBC will report “the news,” which is really just their slanted opinion. Fox does no such thing. When they report news, they report news and allow different sides to be heard, when there is dispute. They do a good job of this, with a few occasional exceptions.
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The man said, shortly after 9/11, "Osama bin Ladin is made in America," and suggested that America is partly at fault for 9/11. That’s a great thing to say RIGHT AFTER 3000 people just were murdered.
When you say “RIGHT AFTER” after 9/11, I am not quite sure what you mean. Like 2 days later? A week? 2 years? I honestly don’t know and am having a hard time finding it. The timing of the statement and the context of the statement seem very important here and I simply am having a hard time finding it.
he says he doesn’t understand why people are upset, which tells you how obtuse the guy is
I can’t quite find the quote. Could you be more specific?
Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed
by wallywagon11 on Sep 10, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions
LMAO!
It really came to this huh? I knew I’d get drawn back in if I check back in this post. LOL…here we go..
IF you really did your research, you understand a few things:
1. This so called “Ground Zero Mosque” purposed by Rauf, who’s heading the whole thing…was to build a community center, NOT specifically a church or mosque, though it would have a place to pray for Muslims if the’d like.
2. If you were so knowledgeable about the guy, you’d know that he is a leader is Muslim American relations and has written numerous books about how to integrate western culture with the Muslim world.
3. You know why he doesn’t understand why it’s a big deal? Because there is ALREADY a Mosque only a block away from this proposed site at ground zero!
But yet again, I’probably wasting my “breath” on someone who believes FOX news is so unbiased, yet sets a precedent of a news organization donating $1,000,000.00 to the GOP, along with being run by one of the biggest Republicans of them in in Rupert Murdoch.
So I know this will fall on your deaf ears, but i wanted to give the rest of the folks here a bit of facts on what this is REALLY about.
Have a good weekend everyone, enjoy the games, happy opening weekend. And don’t forget to remember those that died in 9/11 tomorrow. Christian, Catholic, Muslims and Atheists alike.
by esco41510 on Sep 10, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
1. It’s a community center with a mosque inside.
2. I’m aware of that, but that in itself is not really bridge building. It’s how to fit in, which helps Muslims. It doesn’t necessarily indicate he’s a friend.
3. The other mosque was there already. This new mosque is built up PURPOSELY to be near ground zero. It’s also being funded by people from the Mid-east, and we don’t know who the funders are. Also, that makes no difference. It’s painfully obvious why New Yorkers (70% of them) are against this. You’d have to be very obtuse and out of touch to not understand this.
The parent company of Fox did donate to the republican governors association, that’s true. But what you don’t know is that the parent companies of the other networks do things like that all the time for the left. Furthermore, that doesn’t prove that bias in the parent company will force Fox to use their position to TRICK people.
Fox isn’t trying to trick people; they have conservatives who overtly say they’re conservative. They’re not pretending, while MSNBC pretends to be news.
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