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This just in: Louis Amundson close to decision

CSN reports that Louis Amundson is within a week of making his final decision, with the Warriors being the frontrunner on his list. This could be great news for us. Amundson is not a center, but he provides the team with defense and hustle. Also, the Warriors will find themselves in good position to make a trade around the all-star break, with two large expiring contracts. Fortunately, that should be the time when Udoh will be cleared to play. I'm not saying we should trade Amundson or Udoh before the deadline if we do in fact land Louis, but it gives our team much flexibility during that period, and either one of those guys could improve negotiations involving a player like Ellis. 


This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Can't be a bad signing.

But also not sold on it improving us much. More depth, but that’s really about it.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 7, 2010 10:29 PM PDT reply actions  

'thats really about it'?

depth is important…especially when our starting 5 seems legit on paper, we need some depth to go along with it to be competitive…

You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk

by LostHawkGSW on Sep 7, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Brandan Wright

is not a player you can trust to be there for you 82 games, just yet. Amundson is a great insurance policy.

by lilboots on Sep 7, 2010 11:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

WORD

We need the cushion

Cut.

by Butterknuckles on Sep 7, 2010 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

is not a player you can trust to be there for you 82 games, just yet. Amundson is a great insurance policy.
For sure. If we are planning on Brandan playing big minutes for us, it only makes sense to have some depth at his position just in case…

by WestCoastWarrior on Sep 10, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

not only that

but we can’t really count on Biedrins for more than 30 mpg. That leaves 18 mpg for someone else to play center, or we suffer the consequences of going small night after night.

by Evanz on Sep 10, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yea, but how important is depth?

Especially on a team that really hasn’t been a play-off contender lately. Maybe the Warrior’s will take a major step forward and improved role players will be useful but I’m not sure how much I’d want to bet on that. I think Amundson would make this team better but I’d be nervous about guaranteeing more than one year for the amount of improvement we’d get from 12-15 minutes of Amundson over chaff like Gadzuric or whatever d-leaguer they can grab.

I’d be all for bring Amundson on a 1 year deal but if it takes more than that I wouldn’t be as excited about it.

by OkayJay81 on Sep 7, 2010 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Depth is

really important look at the Lakers and the Celtics. The Lakers have Matt Barnes (solid defender), Lamar Odom another good off the bench scorer. then look at the Celtics they have Glen Davis, and Nate Robinson.

by Curry is amazing on Sep 8, 2010 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Depth is important

We had our depth taken away last year, and we ended up with a poor record. If we had a full healthy team, our depth may have taken us to a respectable season.

by WestCoastWarrior on Sep 8, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

Even having Azubuike and Wright out for the whole season was a big hit. Then we had games where Randolph and Turiaf weren’t playing, and also games where we only had 6-8 available players which usually consisted of a few D-League players.

Also, if he had depth during the 07-08 season we would have made the Playoffs for sure. We won 48 games, but the starters played too many minutes. It’s crazy how we won 48 games even though we started the season 0-6.

by Precise Films Productions on Sep 8, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is kind of my point

If you’re a good team you can put time and money into building the bench, but if you’re a team still building you don’t try to catch up to the top teams by matching their bench first. That’s just a terrible way to build a team, you can’t fill up your cap space by trying to sign good 8th and 9th players when you haven’t settled your top 5.

You pointed out the Lakers and Celtics and I would say that it is way more important to try and get players like Kobe, Gasol, Pierce, and Rondo if you want to start using the Warriors in the same sentence as those teams, worry about the end of the bench later.

by OkayJay81 on Sep 8, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

those teams are all good because of their top players and not because of their bench. Heck, the Lakers won a championship with only one good player coming off their bench because their top 3 was so stacked.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 8, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yea, maybe sign him to two years tops. I think the Warriors did exactly what your saying. IMO we had some damn good bench players. They all got shipped out or let go for high(er) impact, starting players. I just dont know if we are going to get anymore high impact players before the start of the season. That being the case, it’s time to (re)build our bench for this upcoming season. Not much more you can do at this point.

by WestCoastWarrior on Sep 8, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

On one hand I would agree

I think the David Lee deal, although hurting the Warriors depth, was worth it because there are bigger issues than depth. I think signing bench guys to near mid level contracts for 4 years is not necessary. However, signing a backup big for around 2 years is the type of move that would be pretty beneficial. Short term and needed.

Because talent? You want to add a guy like boozer because hes talented? I’m sorry i just don’t see that as a valid reason. -- fffindeed

by wallywagon11 on Sep 8, 2010 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

Even on a two year deal I'd be a little nervous

Not that it would be a disaster, but if signing Amundson improves the Warriors by one or two wins this year but costs $3M of cap space for next off-season I don’t know that I would want to pull the trigger.

I agree that Amundson would be a good fit for the team as it’s composed now, I just think that financial flexibility is more important.

by OkayJay81 on Sep 8, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

On average, a win cost about $1.7mil last year in the NBA. (This is based by looking at the total number of games won and the total salary of all NBA players — it does not mean that spending more will necessarily win you more since wins are a zero sum proposition.) By this measure, if Amundson gained us 2 wins, he’d be worth it, but if it were only one, he’s be a liability. The Wins Produced model suggests that he provided more than that for Phoenix last year.

by jae on Sep 8, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like WP48 but it has really been shown lately that it has many flaws.

"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 6:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

They just posted on there that a
Kidd
Billups
Gerald Wallace
Nene
Tyson Chandler
+ decent bench
would get you 72 wins.

"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

it overrates guys like Kidd who rebound, but can’t play D. It also probably overrates Gerald Wallace because of his near unrepeatable rebounding numbers from last season. It’s not that stat is so freaking awful, although I don’t like it that much, it’s that these people are applying it without thinking about its limitations.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 8, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Most cases it is right.

But sometimes you get Troy Murphy’s and Jason Kidds.

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 9, 2010 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Throughout his career, WP has done a rather good job of explaining the changes in team wins when Kidd has moved from team to team.

by jae on Sep 10, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you misunderstood what i said.

I was talking about the 38 year old Jason Kidd, not the old Jason Kidd.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

According to WP, Jason Kidd was a key player on a very good team last year.

What, exactly, are you saying is wrong with that evaluation?

If WP has correctly tracked Jason Kidd through most of his career, what makes you think it’s doing a bad job of doing so now?

by Ronaldinho on Sep 11, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because it has Jason Kidd as the 4th best player in the freaking NBA last year in terms of WP48.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 11, 2010 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think that's exactly how you should interpret it

As you probably are well aware, WP48 = Rel. Adj. P48 + 0.100. The Rel. Adj. P48 value is the position-adjusted P48. In absolute terms (P48) Kidd is not #4 in the league. It’s only when you subtract the position adjustment that you get his WP48 ranking to be so high. Therefore, you really have to compare WP48 among players at the same position. I don’t think it’s right to compare Kidd’s WP48, for example, to Dwight Howard, or even David Lee. Not exactly, anyway.

Another issue I’ve been thinking about that bothers me about the WP48 is why they just add back in 0.100, assuming that the “average” player contributes 0.1 wp/48. It seems to me that those numbers should be adjusted by position, as well, but maybe that would just get you right back to P48.

In the end, I think if you really want to compare players in absolute terms, it might be better just to use the P48 numbers, not WP48.

Maybe Ronaldinho might have a thought about this…

by Evanz on Sep 11, 2010 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

along the same lines

you know how at draft time, we always say how valuable bigs are. I think that’s because in absolute terms, they generally produce more wins for a team (i.e. the P48). Although it’s interesting to note that LeBron James’ P48 (0.620) was actually ranked #4 in the league, only trailing Howard, Camby, and Duncan. (That shows how ridiculously good James is even compared to other bigs.)

The WP48 is trying to identify a position-independent metric, but maybe it’s also important to look at the absolute production, as well. For example, let’s go back to the (bad idea) of trading Biedrins for Melo. Biedrins’ P48 is 0.537, compared to Melo’s 0.308.

by Evanz on Sep 11, 2010 7:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

The position adjustment is the trickiest part of WP.

However, the assumption that all five positions on the floor are equally valuable, while probably not perfect, follows logically if you assume that GMs and coaches are making rational decisions (which, of course, it another can of worms).

eg, if bigs are more valuable, then at the margins you would tend to see teams choose to play average bigs over above-average wings.

That is to say, why do most teams play a “3” who’s is more like a “2” than a “4” most of the time? If bigs are more valuable, then you would be willing to play a less-talented 4-like 3 over a more-talented 2-like 3.

But in practice, that tends to create an exploitable situation for your opponent defensively (where they beat that player with speed) and offensively (where you have a hard time finding things for three bigs to do, so you move one outside, allowing your opponent to play something like 5-on-4 defensively.)

So the challenge of cross-position comparisons is that the effect it has on the team depends a lot on the other players involved.

For example, ignoring age for a moment, imagine trading Dwight Howard for Jason Kidd. A big part of coming out ahead in that trade is going to be who fills those minutes: all of a sudden Dallas is running Barea out their as a point guard, while Orlando still has Gortat at center, who’s above-average.

So it seems quite likely that, barring other moves, Orlando would “win” the trade – Dallas is left with too big a hole in their roster. But of course it’s silly to say “Kidd is better than Howard because Dallas doesn’t have another decent point guard” – rather, the way to phrase it is that “Kidd was more valuable to Dallas* last season than Howard was to Orlando.”

I find it amusing that Kidd has come under fire here since the traditional argument against WP is that it favors big by considering rebounding so important.

*That asterix is because I strongly suspect Kidd’s play is about to fall off a cliff. He was exposed in the playoffs. If other teams realize how you can now render him ineffective by playing him to take away his 3-pt shot, which would have been stupid for most of his career.

by Ronaldinho on Sep 12, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

agreed

What I thought about after my post is that the 0.100 average at each position makes sense, because it is being added after the position-adjustment (or normalization) has already taken place. But as you point out, it is clearly important to evaluate trades with respect to the replacements at their respective positions. This is why the Biedrins-for-Melo trade is such a horrible idea. Even assuming for the moment that Melo is an upgrade over D. Wright (which I’m not at all convinced), who would be the replacement for Biedrins? Aside from Lee, we don’t have anyone else who comes close to the (absolute) productivity that Biedrins gives us at C.

by Evanz on Sep 12, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

, if bigs are more valuable, then at the margins you would tend to see teams choose to play average bigs over above-average wings.

It’s a matter of room for them to operate, there’s only so much room under the basket so more players have to operate further from the rim and smaller guys are usually better ball handlers and shooters from distance so 3 smaller guys makes more sense than 3 bigger guys( in relative basketball player size, not normal people size,…even smalls can be pretty big dudes compared to most of us) So bigs are worth more because there are less big guys to choose from so the talent pool is smaller but they are not better at the small positions because again the talent pool is smaller. :>)

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 12, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because it has Jason Kidd as the 4th best player in the freaking NBA last year in terms of WP48.

Do be aware that the entirety of your argument boils down to “it can’t be right, thus it’s not right” without any evidence beyond your subjective assertion that it can’t be right.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Jae, cmon. I’m not one to use the common sense gibe but seriously I don’t know how an extremely limited offensive player, who scores at a high volume, and can’t defend quick point guards can be the 4th best player in the league. Yes, he’s a great passer, yes he’s a very good rebounder, yes his scoring efficiency is nice, but that’s not enough to be better than players like Wade, Dirk, Bosh, Lee, Rondo, etc.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 12, 2010 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, that’s a slightly better argument, but it’s still the argument from incredulity. You don’t believe it can be true, ergo it’s not.

Whatever Kidd is doing on the court regardless of your opinions of what he can and cannot do it is objectively very effective. Is he a defensive liability? Objective measures don’t seem to support this. Dallas was a much better defensive team when he was in the game. Is he limited offensively? Perhaps in his own individual scoring, but the team scored much better when he was in the game.

You assert that it’s “not enough” to be better than players like Wade, Dirk , etc. That implies some quantitative measure of how much they are producing. By a quantitative measure he *was producing more than them. To reject this because you don’t believe it and know that he wasn’t as valuable requires either we buy that the subjective value is better or that there’s some flaw with the objective measure. If the latter, what is it? Does it inaccurately predict success? That’s the measure that matters. Demonstrate that or you’re left with a common sense argument.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also worth pointing out that Dallas actually outperformed their WP last season.

If WP is was badly overrating Jason Kidd, you would expect the opposite to be the case: WP would predict Dallas winning more games than they actually did.

by Ronaldinho on Sep 12, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

Why?

Has it always been underrating Dirk, or did it just underrate him last season?

If so, why did it start underrating him when it hand’t?

If it was always underrating him, was he better than Lebron, Paul, Wade, and KG in 2006?

Because it seems to me that WP accurately reflects how Dirk’s game has slipped in the past couple of years: his shooting efficiency is off from his best years, his rebounding is down, his fouling is up, his assists and blocks are down. Dirk isn’t the same player he was 4-5 years ago.

So please tell me, why does WP under-rate Dirk, and for how long has it been doing so, and what changed?

by Ronaldinho on Sep 12, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’m looking at all other stats and he doesn’t compare to those guys. There is a reason when we have discussions none of us put Kidd in that upper eschalon of Lebron, Howard, Durant, Wade, Cp3, etc.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 12, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't put Kidd up there

because he’s old and not really who you’d want to build a team around anymore. Same with Nash. Both of them are HOF-caliber, though. In my opinion, anyway. CP3 needs to have a few more great seasons to reach their level of career-greatness.

by Evanz on Sep 12, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m looking at all other stats and he doesn’t compare to those guys.

This only says that you have a subjective weight that you put on “all other stats” but gives no one any reason to believe that your subjective weighting produces an accurate measure of the player value where a measure that was derived from actually regressing winning percentage against the various statistical measures fails. You’re still taking the “it can’t be right” line and presenting it as your argument.

I suspect that you’re putting points scored high in your rating. Most people do. It’s hard to get away from because it’s how most players get rated and even when you know better, it’s tough to disregard.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Jae, i'm using per 36 numbers, +/- number's, and Synergy

And only WP48 thinks Kidd is more than a good-very good player.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 12, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

jae is pointing out

that WP48 is based on per minute production.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 12, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

WP accounts for teams wins in 95% of the cases.

Players like Kidd and Troy Murphy fall into the 5% wrong.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 12, 2010 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

And again you fall back on bald assertion.

You can’t just say “Oh, Dirk is way underrated, that’s why Kidd gets away without being overrated” without justifying why DIrk is underrated.

We’re still waiting on a full, cogent argument as to why WP48 is wrong when it comes to Kidd. You simply re-asserting your point isn’t an argument.

by Ronaldinho on Sep 12, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree that some players seem to be poorly rated by WP. You are asserting that Kidd is one of these. You support your assertion with an assertion. That’s not an argument. It’s your opinion. Please do be aware that the two are not synonyms.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ok, i'm glad we come to an agreement on the first line.

So Kidd, based on Synergy numbers is not a good defender. Below average defender. He rebounds well for a guard, but 5.6 r/36 is nothing special. He scores 10 points per 36 (very low volume) on a nice but nothing special 577% TS%, and is still a very good passer. Explain how these all combined would make Kidd the 4th best player in the league, or even in the top 15.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 12, 2010 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I have a harder time figuring out why Camby is #2...

Here are some numbers for you to ponder:

TRB/36
Player A – 13.6
Player B – 13.3

Blk/36
Player A – 2.3
Player B – 2.6

TS
Player A – 50.1
Player B – 57.4

Stl/36
Player A – 1.5
Player B – 0.7

Ast/36
Player A – 2.9
Player B – 1.1

TOV/36
Player A – 1.4
Player B – 2.1

Would you guess looking at these numbers that Camby is Player A with a 0.407 WP48 and that Player B is Samuel Dalembert with a 0.244 WP48? Rebounding, which is supposedly what WP48 favors so much, is almost even. Dalembert has a much better TS (and btw, scores at a significantly higher volume). Looking at these numbers, it seems the stls, tov, and assists are what put Camby over the top. But looking at the absolute numbers, I wouldn’t have thought the WP48 or any index would be that favorable to one or the other of these players.

by Evanz on Sep 12, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

in retrospect

it seems like a good trade for us would’ve been Ellis+Biedrins for Iggy and Dalembert. I wonder if they would’ve gone for that.

by Evanz on Sep 12, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

position makes a difference, too, of course

Camby is credited with 75% PF, 25% C compared to 100% C for Dalembert. Therefore, Camby gets an extra boost in the WP48 for the position adjustment.

by Evanz on Sep 12, 2010 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

WP48

likes steals a lot because it creates a new possession for the offense, and it also likes players who don’t turn it over.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 12, 2010 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

WP48 likes steals a lot because it creates a new possession for the offense, and it also likes players who don’t turn it over.

I think that the personification of the metric does it a disservice. It’s not a metric made up by how much someone feels something impacts a game, but how much something has been observed to impact a game.

WP “likes” steals as much as it dislikes turnovers as much as it likes rebounds as much as it likes points and as much as it dislikes missed shots. It likes them all equally because they have been demonstrated to have the same impact on the probability of winning a game. An extra rebound makes your team more likely to win just as much as an extra steal or one fewer turnovers. The equality of all of this is because on average, a possession winds up being worth about a point, so anything that negates another team’s possession without scoring or allows you to continue a possession or results in points above the average rate of return has an equal impact on win probability.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s not a metric made up by how much someone feels something impacts a game

If the author is doing his job it certainly is, he decides what he wants to emphasize and best fits the results of the metric to the results of the games. If the author is not deciding these things then the metric would never be constructed.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 12, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know nothing, skep. Nothing at all.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know nothing, skep. Nothing at all.

well suit yourself but if you’d ever designed an indicator you’d understand the way it works.
Someone has to decide what they want it to track then curve fit it to the best replication of the results.These things don’t just pop up on their own like poppys in the springtime.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 13, 2010 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

the way they decided

what to track was to perform a multi-variate regression to determine which factors correlate most with winning. As far as I’m concerned, that is a completely objective approach.

by Evanz on Sep 13, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

the way they decided

 That was my point, someone decided to do it a certain way. There’s millions of combinations of weightings for all the factors that go into determining a winner so there’s lots of ways to choose what to do with the data, and there’s lots of factors that are not even recorded or tracked that future metrics authors could choose to incorporate.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 13, 2010 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

millions of combinations?

Not really. The regression calculates the optimal coefficients. There’s not much choice in it at all. Not by a human, anyway.

by Evanz on Sep 13, 2010 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

There’s not much choice in it at all. Not by a human, anyway.

 A computer can do the number crunching but someone still has to tell it what they want it to do and how they want it done.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 13, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Skep demonstrates that he doesn't understand what regression analysis is.

 I know enough about it to know a computer can’t do it without human guidance. You are greatly dis-respecting the author of the metric if you really think he didn’t make choices and input into the work.

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 13, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

He rebounds well for a guard, but 5.6 r/36 is nothing special.

It’s very special for a point guard. It’s the best in the league. It’s more than 2 rebounds more per 36 than the average point guard, more than 2 standard deviations above the mean. Sorry, but when you say that it’s “nothing special”, your argument falls apart.

a nice but nothing special 577% TS%

Nothing special? I guess that depends on what you consider special. It’s 8 among point guards who played at least 1000 minutes, (none of the guys higher on the list played more minutes than Kidd either).

and is still a very good passer.

Yup. He’s more than a standard deviation and a half above the mean in terms of assists / 36. Of the 4 guys who racked up assists at a better rate, only Paul took better care of the ball.

His scoring is low. It’s 1standard deviation below the mean for point guards in points/36, but since he was rather efficient than it, his offense was a net positive.

Let’s see, best rebounder at his position, substantially better than average, top 10% at his position in scoring efficiency, one of the best 4 or 5 passers in the game.

Explain how these all combined would make Kidd the 4th best player in the league, or even in the top 15.

It does by taking a regression of how individual statistics factor into odds of a team winning, figuring out a positional adjustment for each position and noting that only 3 other players were more productive per minute than Kidd by this measure. The numbers really do indicate this. If you think the methodology for calculating the numbers if flawed, fine. Explain why this is, but you are time and time again dropping back on the “I just don’t think it’s that good” argument. That you have to degrade Kidd’s rebounding as “nothing special” seems like you’re more interested in supporting the prejudice you bring to the argument than actually evaluating it.

The only case you make is that he’s a below average defender by Synergy. That may be enough to warrant a lower rating. However, he did not have a negative effect on Dallas’s defense last year. I’d say that there’s more cause to question the Synergy ratings as to question WP, but this here is me being subjective on this single point.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

So you think 2 rebounds above average, while scoring at a good efficiency(very low volume), coupled with very good passing, low turnovers, and below average defense is one of the top 4 per minute contributors?
I’m not being ignorant, this just doesn’t make him better than Wade, Durant, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo, Iguodala, and etc.

REPLY TO DONUT

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 12, 2010 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

You don’t get it. It does not matter what I think. WP is not some sort of value judgment. You are making the subjective value judgment.

I’m not being ignorant, this just doesn’t make him better than Wade, Durant, Steve Nash, Rajon Rondo, Iguodala, and etc.

Ignorant? Maybe, maybe not, but being stubborn in insisting that your subjective opinion is somehow more valid is quite clearly something that you are doing. And you seem to be insisting that I justify the numbers in some subjective manner as you are doing.

The metric indicates that he was as valuable as the metric indicates. The metric may be wrong, but no amount of arguing about what I think two rebounds or a high efficiency is worth changes this. It is an objective argument based on observation and analysis of observations.

You have responded time and time again with the insistence that your subjective assertions are right. You can continue to think this, but don’t pretend like you’ve actually made a case beyond saying that you are right. You haven’t. You’ve backed your assertion with your assertion and nothing more. Your conclusion is that your initial position was right and you support it by stating that you were right at the beginning. That’s not necessarily ignorant, but it’s lousy thinking that has nothing to suggest that your opinion (and again that’s what you’re presenting with very little else) is worth anything at all.

by jae on Sep 12, 2010 5:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

On average, a win cost about $1.7mil last year in the NBA.

 I just did a quick calc for a few teams and found that the top teams seem to be around the 1.6 mil mark. Cav’s were at an efficient 1.3, Lakers, Celts and Jazz at 1.6, portland and the thunder a bargain at 1.1 and 1.0 respectively, the GSW a sad 2.3 and minny bring up the rear at 3.7

Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Sep 10, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

This.

Sorta.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 11, 2010 3:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

LOL.

Ours starting line is not that LEGIT. We have a rookie of the year competitor, a 2nd-run all star (chosen off of injuries for a weak East from NY), a guy who has proved very little at all in this league (Wright), and two overpaid young talents in Beans and Monta, both of which had worse seasons last year (Beans according to everyone, Monta according to most).

We need much more than depth to make us competitive, lol.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 11, 2010 3:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Beans based on injury

Monta based on selfishness. I think we can count on Biedrins playing at least pretty well this season.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 11, 2010 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Can we?

Beans was not good even when healthy last year. He was afraid to put up a shot because he might get fouled. That’s disgusting basketball. Can’t have it. I like Beans, but being hurt was not his biggest issue last year.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 11, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

As for Monta...

we just can’t be sure.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 11, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Beans was not good even when healthy last year.

He was pretty much never healthy last year. When he was playing after his first extended absence (that started a week into the season), he was playing with a misdiagnosed injury that ultimately required surgery.

but being hurt was not his biggest issue last year.

It was the root of all of his problems.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 12, 2010 4:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

he was playing with a misdiagnosed injury that ultimately required surgery.

No wonder that Beans decided to go outside the Warrior staff for medical consultation later on.

by Only In Fairfax on Sep 12, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

An injury did not make him scared to shoot free throws.

A center cannot be scared to put the ball in the basket because they’re scared of the 3 point line. That’s where he was off last year. Even in the first couple games, it was like: “WTF Beans! Shoot the damn ball!” He got hurt and then was even worse because he wasn’t physically able, but he mentally disabled from the beginning of the season. For him to be effective, he’s got to get back to 50% shooting from the line and not be scared of getting fouled anymore. I don’t bet on that right now. I’d go 50-50.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 13, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Edit.

*free-throw line not 3 point line

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 13, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Beans was originally injured very early in the season.

And that type of injury would affect free throw shots. Because it was misdiagnosed he was forced to play untill the injury worsened and he had to stop.

by Only In Fairfax on Sep 13, 2010 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

He wasn't injured when the season began.

And still he didn’t want to put up a shot. Injuries shouldn’t affect him that much mentally to begin with, or he is one of the weakest mental players in the NBA.

Is Don Nelson going to Hawaii forever now?

by Brownie13 on Sep 13, 2010 7:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Amundson ABOUT to sign is breaking news?

Then it’s been breaking news for the past few weeks…

by JustSomeName on Sep 7, 2010 11:49 PM PDT reply actions  

Nice...

Amundson is perfect for the run and gun.

by Yoki R on Sep 8, 2010 3:50 AM PDT reply actions  

Amundson

Lot of interest for what ideally is a #11 man on your team.

by lrus on Sep 8, 2010 6:17 AM PDT reply actions  

It’s the beginning of September, this is as big as it gets, barring a star player not returning phone calls or a mo-ped accident.

by belilaugh on Sep 8, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

How quickly you forget the front-page scandals of Curry’s tweaked ankle, Biedrins’ underwhelming interview, and Udoh’s boat trip…

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Sep 8, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

#11?

He’s definitely a rotation player.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 8, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, 2nd or 3rplayer off the bench

I would take him as a long term backup to Lee
3 mil a year is a little steep, but I accept the fact that we will need to over pay a little for our free agents

"There's more to life than basketball. I can't play this game my whole life. I'm just trying to figure out what I like to do and meet some cool people along the way." -Chris Bosh

by Duby Dub Dubs on Sep 8, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

i wish i could negative rec

by AJC3317 on Sep 8, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm excited if he joins the team

He’s not athletic, but his hustle makes him perfect for us.

by Precise Films Productions on Sep 8, 2010 8:10 AM PDT reply actions  

I got reamed for calling Lee unathletic ( and associating that with his whiteness :P), and I have to say, in retrospect, I was totally wrong. Lee is quite athletic, he’s just a horrible defender (and has the muscle-definition of Will Ferrel in Semi-Pro), which I wrongly attributed to a lack of athleticism. The same can not be said for Amundson.

Look at the guy’s blk/36! The stat-inclined may scoff at the importance of shot-blocking, but as someone that loathes undersized “bigs” as a rule, I have to admit this guy can block some shots, and I love that. As far as his overall play, I would say defense is the key to his usefulness. His turnover rate isn’t particularly bad, so he’s a wash on offense, and his rebounding is great for a league minimum-style player. So can he defend bigger players 1-on-1? I haven’t seen enough of him, and don’t have the stat-knowledge to say. Thoughts?


As a whitey myself, I have to say this is more the norm than any Corey Maggette-type in my melanin-lacking genetic group ;).

Amnesty for all immigrants! Boycott Arizona!

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Sep 8, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’d be hard pressed to find a group in America where that wasn’t the norm though. Surely you are not implying that some groups are inherently more athletic are you?

We don’t see much Polish representation in American media, but it would be foolish to judge them all by Mariusz Pudzianowski (damn straight I looked up the spelling).

by belilaugh on Sep 8, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not implying anything. I’m explicitly stating that Lee is indeed athletic, despite having the muscle definition of the above photo. As far as the dude you’re referencing, a quick google search indicates that he began training at the age of 11 to achieve his physique, whereas it is well known that Maggette never lifts weights or trains at all, at least while he was on the Clippers. Thus, while that may not translate to the forms of athleticism which most greatly benefit a basketball player, There is no questioning the genetic predisposition to floppy appendages inherent in my fellow caucasians.

P.C. bullsh*t has made us all slaves to ignorance, ignoring the reality of genetic variety. Furthermore, it takes like 3,000 pollacks to screw in a light bulb! :P

Amnesty for all immigrants! Boycott Arizona!

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Sep 8, 2010 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

You are something else.

by belilaugh on Sep 9, 2010 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

sprint

but maybe spring, too?

by Evanz on Sep 10, 2010 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

His max vert was the same

It’s pretty clear from watching him that he doesn’t get up as easily though.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

I meant to write "sprint", not "spring"

I wasn’t suggesting Love has better hops than AR.

by Evanz on Sep 10, 2010 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know,

but you did say “maybe spring too” answered for his vertical.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 10, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just in

He is going to the Hornets.

I would rather have Barron anyway.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Sep 8, 2010 8:11 AM PDT reply actions  

Link? All I see is the old hoopsworld source that says the Hornets “appear to be” the frontrunner.

As of a couple hours ago Ball Don’t Lie seems to think he’s still up for grabs…

Golden State is earnestly pursuing Amundson, viewing the 6-foot-9 sparkplug as a potential piece to round out its frontcourt rotation. New Orleans, Indiana, Toronto and Charlotte are among the other teams that have reportedly shown interest in the UNLV grad.

I’d much rather have Amundson than Barron.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Sep 8, 2010 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

On Yahoo, I just did a fanshot after I posted this.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Sep 8, 2010 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I saw it. Seems like a bit of a shaky source (no link to the Newsday piece they’re citing) but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me. I guess I’m still holding out a bit of hope till we get official word from his agent.

Same question I posed in the other thread: why on earth would you rather have Barron than Amundson? Barron’s 29 and mediocre-to-poor at everything.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Sep 8, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

Mostly because of his size and the need for a true back up C. I think we are lacking there more than anywhere else with the money we have.

It’s not like there are many legit 7 footers in the D-League and I think we can get a “hustle” 6’8" – 6’9" guy like Amundson cheaper that way.

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Sep 8, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Newsay source

http://www.newsday.com/sports/basketball/knicks/the-knicks-fix-1.812055/getting-late-to-be-earl-1.2269205

Though you need to subscribe to read it, but not for the mobile version: http://mobile.newsday.com/inf/infomo;JSESSIONID=B045F134B903C877A16A.2916?site=newsday&view=sports_blogs_item&feed:a=newsday_5min&feed:c=sports_blogs&feed:i=1.2269205

It’s just speculation in my opinion since the article is just focusing on when Earl Barron will resign with Knicks rather than Amundson’s contract talks.

A Sonics fan without a team... but after 7 seasons now of GS Warriors season tickets have convinced me to adopt the boys from Oakland.

by mcwalter44 on Sep 8, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

i think amundson will go to the hornets

because it seems he might be able to get more minutes. but if i was amundson, i think the warriors would be ideal because of the similar style with the suns and probable minutes shared with b.wright.

btw this lineup would-be (so far) is crazy (playoff potential). got depth and energy. exciting basketball!

curry/bell/lin
ellis/williams
dwright/carney/williams
lee/amundson/bwright/vlad
beans/gadz/udoh/

by bimmercirem3 on Sep 8, 2010 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Lou would get minutes at C ahead of Gadzuric

even though he is undersized. Better to have a good undersized big than a stiff like Gadz.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 8, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah i see...

a lee and lou small ball would be pretty exciting to see.

by bimmercirem3 on Sep 8, 2010 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and it's really not all THAT small

it’s not Corey Maggette at the 4 or something.

I must look like a dork.

by Reverend_Randy on Sep 8, 2010 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well it's not small because we'll be rebounding really well still.

"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like the signing of Carney. but Reggie Williams should get a lot of minutes this year.

"Everybody loves Basketball-Reference.com. Except the Kobe fans".- DubsFan408

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 8, 2010 3:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree

It’s good to have some depth though in case that ol’ injury bug comes around this season again.
On a side note, Im digg’n your profile image.

by WestCoastWarrior on Sep 9, 2010 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Fellow Armenian?

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste

by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 10, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Will there be an one hour special announcing his decision? I would be disappointed if that isn’t the case

by DutchWarrior on Sep 10, 2010 8:36 AM PDT reply actions  

Amundson to GSW

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5567423

Congratulations Warriors, you are getting an underrated player on an excellent contract and he will be deeply missed by Suns fans and teammates.

This is a man who on a new $800k/year salary opted to ride his bike to work everyday. He is no flash and all hustle. You can’t ask for a more humble, focused, energetic and hard-working teammate.

by waxmonkey on Sep 13, 2010 8:24 AM PDT reply actions  

Well there it is then, thanks WM

And if you already haven’t you might want to make this a fanshot so the regulars can start dancing on their desks at work. :)

"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."

Frank Zappa

by qin on Sep 13, 2010 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

sweet jesus!

I know I shouldn’t be this happy, but I feel like we’ve gotten practically everyone we wanted this off-season. Definitely post a fanshot!

by Evanz on Sep 13, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wanted LeBron.

by belilaugh on Sep 13, 2010 9:43 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

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