Recap #42: Warriors 119, Kings 112: Bittersweet and schizophrenic...
by jae on Jan 22, 2011 1:19 AM PST
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...but overtime wins still feel good.
It was a sloppy 1st quarter. Pulling to a point at the end of 1, a testament to being more talented, but certainly not to better execution. There's a school of thought that the Kings are better poised for a quantum leap forward. Their personnel has promise. Reigning rookie of the year Tyreke Evans had star written all over him, though his sophomore season has seen a remarkable ability to miss shots. Casspi appeared to be a find at SF, though his second season does not seem to be building beyond his first. And if Cousins ever figures out a way to shoot better than 42% from the field, he could be beastly. There's real talent on the Kings team. Add to that they no longer have Spencer Hawes* to weigh them down. All consider, records aside, one might expect this things to be a real contest, just as it was exactly a month ago when they faced off in Sacratomato.
And it was a real contest, as close as you can get for 48 regulation minutes, before winding up as a bittersweet victory, made rather less exuberant by watching Monta Ellis wind up in Tom Abdenour's care in the closing seconds of the game (and closing days of Abdenour's tenure with the Warriors).
Were you somehow able to watch without any knowledge of the score, it was a hard game to gauge. On one had, you had unexpected delights like a Vladimir Radmanovic driving dunk about a 1/3rd of the way through the second period.
It was closer than it ever should have been, and had the outcome been otherwise, these details would hardly be worth mentioning: Radmanovic is driving and dunking. I mentioned it before, but it still amazes me. It would seem a clear sign that things are going well. Andris Biedrins, not normally know as a gifted in man defense, made DeMarcus Cousins look bad, allowing him to pick up his dribble, make 17 pointless shifts and moves before taking a falling fadeaway that negates any semblance of advantage that a 7 foot tall behemoth should have over almost anyone in getting an easy basket. Biedrins, not normally gifted in man defense, made Cousins look bad, allowing him to pick up his dribble, make 17 pointless shifts and moves before taking a falling fadeaway that negates any semblance of advantage that a 7 foot tall behemoth should have over almost anyone in getting an easy basket.
Such are signs that things are going well. In such light, it's preposterous that Sacramento was neck and neck through a half , absurd that a strong 3rd quarter didn't put the Kings away, that the Warriors trailed by 9 in the 4th, that it took an extra five minutes to seal a victory for the home team.
Of course, these preposterous moments seem far less so in light of the larger picture, that same larger picture that blurs by the good feeling of Monta's latest clutch jumper from the left elbow to keep hope alive. The ephemeral glimpses, tantilizing teasers of better play would be overwhelmed by an endless stream of Kings shooting free throws, but Evans showing up in a way that has not been so common this season, by the 21 points Cousins dropped on our front line where he looked much the opposite of an inept rookie that one play against Biedrins might have otherwise suggested.
Such were the signs that this was going to go down to the wire, that two works in progress were battling with the good and the bad on their respective squads; battling with themselves (almost) as much as with the opponents in the other jerseys.
In the end, it was exciting, full of hope and excitement, but tainted, more so if Monta's injury proves to be significant.
Take home this: David Lee remembers how to score efficiently. Stephen Curry scores 34 in workman manner such that he does not get mentioned until the penultimate paragraph of the recap. Monta takes over when he needs too. That spot on the left elbow holds magic for Monta.
And it was a win. Phew!
[*lest we forget, Spencer Hawes sucks, always did suck and anyone who ever held hope that he would be anything better than a player who sucked was delusional.]
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I gotta admit
I do like me some Vlad throw downs.
The Golden State Warriors, we make Free Throws look difficult!
by Badly Browned on Jan 22, 2011 1:24 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Monta Ellis
Has the ability to lead this team to a championship. Anyone who doubts him please refer to back to back buzzer beaters the last two nights, thanks. (yes one was a buzzer tie that sent it into overtime but we won because of Monta Ellis)
He’s ours. Stop the hate.
I like Monta
but making crucial buzzer shots back to back against the Pacers and Kings really doesn’t say anything at all about your ability to lead a team to a championship.
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
You know
Nellie did always teach the guys to take the shot they were comfortable taking, and Smart seemed the echo the same thing in the presser. When/if Monta takes that shot again and misses, that’s just who he is.
The Golden State Warriors, we make Free Throws look difficult!
by Badly Browned on Jan 22, 2011 9:50 AM PST up reply actions
lets not get ahead of ourselves...
He’s an incredible player and only if he has the PERFECT roster could he lead the team to a championship. Meaning another STAR probably bigger than Monta.
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."
by fr8nk the tank on Jan 22, 2011 10:49 AM PST up reply actions
Biedrins on steroids and hypnosis?
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
He could use a beard. I think an evil, pointy beard would help our team a lot.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Ben Wallace-esque
"It ain't Chinese algebra. If you get stops and you execute on offense, normally that team wins." - Tony Allen
"One thing LeBron James has won that Kobe Bryant never has, and never will: A bronze medal."- Josh Tucker
if you're gonna mention big ben
it’s gotta be for the fro!
Bearded players get called for more fouls. I’d worry that Biedrins wouldn’t be able to log a full 8 minutes a night with a beard.
Maybe a handlebar mustache and some tats?
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Maybe a handlebar mustache and some tats?
or a burka to hide his true intentions?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 3:18 PM PST up reply actions
not this team*
he still needs some pieces. But he will lead them.
Clutch
The Warriors have several guys that can shoot, which is great for those last second shots. Monta is proving to be quite the clutch player, we can definitely build from there. The dubs played with great defensive intensity in the last three minutes of the game, which seems to be a recurring theme and was key to both our recent comebacks. I just wonder why they don’t play with that defensive intensity more often, if not for the whole game. I don’t know if it’s a matter of better coaching, a sense of urgency, or getting players willing to do it for the whole game. I feel like if the dubs played with that D intensity all game and for a whole season we could win 50 and actually make some noise in the playoffs.
I think part of the trick of good teams is to play excellent defense in spurts, otherwise, you get worn out. The rest of the time, you play decent defense.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
It also helps when you don’t get beat every time down so you’re not sprinting all over the court making rotations…
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 11:53 AM PST up reply actions
No Warrior Wonder?
I say it’s a deserved tie between Monta, Steph, and David Lee. Had any of them not shown up as they did, it would have ended much differently..
"It ain't Chinese algebra. If you get stops and you execute on offense, normally that team wins." - Tony Allen
"One thing LeBron James has won that Kobe Bryant never has, and never will: A bronze medal."- Josh Tucker
needs editing
feels very rough, as if you uploaded the wrong edition or something.
Goal: 8 seed!
+1
Perhaps it was written like it was all over the place to make it feel how that game was.
by MAZarate21 on Jan 22, 2011 11:54 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Written late. Family semi-emergency meant watching it on DVR at 11. On the plus side, games without commercials and halftimes fly by. On the down side, the writer/editor/layout person was falling asleep, and with an early morning appointment today, it was last night or never.
I’m a fan of DVR fast forwarding for Warriors games. Very luxurious. All ya’ need is a bath and some Calgon to go with it.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
I normally watch games a bit delayed with the DVR, though I’m generally too impatient to wait long enough and catch up by halftime. I also rarely have my computer in front of me when watching (one fewer object to throw at the TV screen) but knew last night I’d have to jot down thoughts while watching. It’s tough to watch and take notes for a recap at the same time. I don’t know how people participating in open game threads can do it.
Re: I don’t know how people participating in open game threads can do it.
It doesn’t take a lot of attention away from the game to quickly hammer out:
WTF?!?!? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
I am not a testicle.
by bloodsweatndonuts on Jan 22, 2011 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
sorry to hear that
Writing here is I’m sure an often thankless commitment, but don’t forget there still are people on the internet who frequent sites for quality writing and not merely to add another drop into the social media pool. GSoM writers have always had high standards, yourself included, and I hope to see them upheld for a long, long time.
Goal: 8 seed!
Dorell Wright, might be my favorite player in NBA
The guys effort level and ability to contribute in otherways when his shot isn’t following is awesome.
And as much as I’m not one for cliche’s his ‘toughness’ has an impact on this team. More than anyone would admit. Sometimes I feel more than David Lee. ll
If we could sign 2 other Dorell Wrights, I’d be a happy man.
Can Reggie become Dorell2?
His defense is improving, if he can get more consistent he could end up being that
I don't know
Dorell has that grit and toughness that clearly came from playing for a defensive minded team his whole career.
I’d love Reggie to become that though.
He’s not long enough. He’s not ever going to be a special defensive player like Dorell.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
he has a great wing span but he doesn’t move his feet (fundemental) and seems to have latteral quickness (ability). he’s probably our worst defender.
That’s sad to have a good wingspan and still be a bad defender. Hope they’re drilling defense into his head.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Has the length, lacks the athleticism.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
I think it’s more his mindset. He’s obviously very coordinated and reasonably fast. He’s not Michael Jordan but neither is he Les Jepson.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
I really don’t think he’s reasonably fast at all, at least not for an NBA SG. I think he’s closer to being “slow” than “Monta Ellis”. Does have pretty good basketball IQ in keeping his defender off balance, though. If you can do that well, you can look a lot more athletic than you are (see: Nash, Steve or Pierce, Paul).
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2011 8:15 AM PST up reply actions
One thing Reggie can do that Dorell can't
is finish inside. Dorell’s inside drives can’t hold a candle to the brilliance of Reggie; he’s probably the second best player on our team in terms of finishing, if not the first.
Goal: 8 seed!
BACK COURT
sucramental’s back court bigger & more rugged then GSW…. & we out score them 62-46
ANY QUESTIONS???
Things I saw AT GAME that I never saw watching from home...
Positives: These guys actually talk to each other on the floor, Lee and Ellis talked strategy a lot, DWright wouldn’t stop talking, but good communication on both ends of the floor, something warriors have struggled with in the past
On the benches, Smart works his tail off, his choices may not always be the best, but the effort is there and the attitude is great. At one point in the first, when Warriors came out flat, he ripped them a new one – especially Curry who just looked sheepish.
Sactown fans may be more irritating than Laker “fans”
Team mates were really rooting Beidrins on and he played pretty well despite the stat line
Amudson looked super sharp in that suit – like he belonged in that Inception movie
Negatives: A couple time DWright was clearly not pleased with Smart’s choices and he let his irritation show
Curry and Monta, despite all the summer love, seem to lack any on court friendship – I wouldn’t read into this much, but both players are real chummy with others – just not each other
BWright looks lonely often
Bell does too
Was at the game as well
And I agree with you. It’s hard not to like Smart. Even with some questionable decisions, I think he’s doing a lot of good things like instilling defensive accountability, something I didn’t know could happen in oakland.
Oh and Curry is highly frustrating. I don’t get why people think he has a high bball IQ. He makes A LOT of young mistakes still. Comparing him to any of the top 15 point guards in terms of decision making is generous.
On another note, girl sitting behind me mentioned how sexy Andris is like 10 times. Andris is such a player
I’ve become much more positive on Smart than I was before. Not saying I think he’s a great coach, but I’m much less down on him than I was earlier this season.
As for basketball IQ, well, it’s a vague term. He definitely makes dumb mistakes, but at the same time, he also has a great feel for things like changing speed, angles, has good vision….those little things. Hard to describe them, but he definitely understands the game on a higher level than most of his peers. The decision making will come with time.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
agreed
Curry has great bball IQ – the guy spent his whole life around the game, uses his limited athleticism to the best of its capacity, sees the court well, knows how to attack defender’s weaknesses. My concern with Curry is less mental. Yes, he is making mental mistakes, but our standards for him are too high.
Curry never hit the rookie wall and is tired, with Team USA he never really has had a long break, and all this is effecting his play (espec on defense) and decision making – I also think he is over thinking the game instead of just having fun out there like last year.
He’ll be just fine.
agreed!
i think curry (and possibly Dorell) are the only warriors that have the ability to read defenses and change directions with the ball. was it sometime in overtime where curry pump faked, picked up dribble and fake passed to dorell, drawing the defender off him enough to squeeze off an uncontested jumper. this isn’t to say doing stuff like this makes curry “smarter,” but I would agree with missing barry that not many of the warriors have those kind of instincts to get their defenders off balance to make betters plays for themselves or others.
monta is a crafty player at squeezing through tight spaces in the paint and he’s found ways to limit his charge calls this season. but there’s another reason why they might call him the mississippi missle/bullet because he tends to only go in one direction and commits to it fully.
Reggie gets crafty at times. The more I watch Reggie the more convinced I am that he’s pretty unathletic by NBA standards, yet he still manages to get off his shot.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 2:37 PM PST up reply actions
Apologies
I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth earlier by suggesting that you thought nobody else had these abilities. Those were my perceptions of Warriors players. But yeah, I, too, see Reggie gettin’ craft with his pump fakes and floaters in the paint.
Anybody else think the team really needs to make a point of feeding Lee more?
On a night when Ellis is struggling, it’s frustrating that he takes 13 more shots than Lee.
No
Lee’s never been a player you force play to. He isn’t that good. He needs to get his offense in motion of offense.
I think if we try to feed him in post and run offense to him, he’ll see a massive drop in efficiency
exactly
"You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity."
by fr8nk the tank on Jan 22, 2011 10:50 AM PST up reply actions
Sure, he gets his points in the motion of the offense -
- but you can still set the offense to give him more looks. You can run more pick-and-rolls. You can instill more discipline in your shooting guard.
David Lee is not a “feed him in the low post and let him go to work” kind of player, but he should be touching the ball far more on offense. Particularly when he’s shooting the ball that well and Monta is struggling.
Agreed, even if a guy is more of a “flow of the game” kinda scorer, you can still try to get him more involved by running sets that play to his strength where he’s one of the main scoring options. Get Lee coming off flex cuts, or running the pick and roll. You can run stuff that will feature him more without making have to create out of an iso or post up or something….
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
our shooting guard leads ALL shooting guards in assists.
He is disciplined, at times he has slumps like last night, but his shooting percentage shows he is not a ball hog and not someone who just likes to jack up bad shots.
David Lee touched the ball last night, but he often looks to pass the ball himself – unselfishness seems to me a hallmark of this team in general
I disagree
Monta is the player on our team that has the highest chance of taking the ball up the court and never giving it up in a non fast-break situation. The fact that he records so many assists is due to the fact that he handles the ball more than any other shooting guard in the league (a bad thing, given how good our point guard is), he leads the league in minutes, and gets a lot of assists in fast break situations.
Monta’s game is at its best when it is varied—when he drives the lane one play, then gets open for a jumper on the next, not when he is trying to create/doing the same thing on 5 out of 6 offensive possessions.
Monta "leads all shooting guards in assists" is the definition of empty stat counting.
He also leads all shooting guards in turnovers, which is an equally misleading stat – it’s a function of the fact that he plays a ton of minutes, and also plays some point guard. I also suspect he leads
To say Monta is “disciplined” in, quite frankly, just wrong. He flirst with being disicplined, and he also flirts with being a gunner. He’s got a bit of jeckyl and hyde in him, unfortunately. Against the Pacers he was Jeckyl. Against the Kings he was Hyde.
The problem isn’t the “slump” – the problem is that Monta doesn’t recognize when it’s not going in and change his play. He still dominates the ball, misses a ton of shots, turns the ball over a ton … and still gets people thinking he had a great game because he scores in the high 20s.
Monta has had stretches of disciplined, excellent play this season. He’s also had stretches of very damanging, selfish play – the kind that makes it very, very hard to win games. This season, we’ve seen much more of the former than the latter, but last night was the latter.
We are much better than the Kings. Last night’s game shouldn’t have been close. A big part of the reason it was close was Monta’s missed shots and turnovers.
i think he understood things were going bad for him
but i think there were very few shots yesterday that were bad shots. I counted maybe 5 forced shots that were outside the context of the offense. Now, for a normal nba player that’s still a lot, but in terms of comparing to the bad Monta of a year prior, I think it’s still within the range of being reasonable.
In the 4th quarter, where he missed a significant portion of his shots, the lineup had no starters but him and many of the shots he took he had to take. One has to ask why the lineup was what it was, but given the lineup it was Monta’s role to take those shots.
Goal: 8 seed!
Almost all of his good games are at home and almost all of his bad are on the road. I say Monta plays 30 on the road and 40 at home. It won’t hurt his scoring much, seeing as he doesn’t score as much on the road anyway.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Last night was a prime example of Steph and Monta’s inability to co-exist effectively on offense. Monta is eschewing all ball movement he displayed earlier in the season and becoming a Maggette-like black hole because of some new found confidence from being hailed as the face of the franchise and hitting back to back “game winners.” He rarely passes to Steph, and Steph’s ball movement, get-everyone-involved offense is not at all what Monta is about.
Last night, much like Wednesday, will be remembered for Monta’s “late game heroics” to seal the victory, not for the fact that they should have NEVER been in the situation where they are about to lose to the Pacers or Kings at home.
However, no will focus on the fact that Steph goes 6-6 in the 3rd quarter, when he is partially/mostly running the offense, then in the 4th quarter, when he is not, does not attempt a shot (barely touching the ball) until he is taken out at the 9:33 mark. Steph comes back in at the 5:33 mark, when their 4 point lead is now a 2 point deficit, and proceeds to make his next 3 shots up until the warriors have the ball with :50 left, down 2. Monta, in the fourth quarter up until this point, has gone 2-8, mostly taking shots on possessions where he is the only one touching the ball.
So…at the :50 mark down 2, the warriors decide to let Monta unsuccessfully run the offense instead of Steph, thus they are in a hole that requires his “late-game heroics” to pull out, in which he makes a very questionable time decision (Thankfully, Smart’s great advice of “just do you” allowed this). It’s also worth noting that Steph defended Udrih for most of the game (11 pts, avg 14.1) and Monta defended Tyreke (35 pts, avg. 17.6, career-high).
You're actually going to say Monta was reason we didn't blow out Pacers?
I suggest you re-watch the game, on top of looking at the box score.
Why don't you help us out -
- what do you think (aside from the final shot) Monta was doing which makes up for his bad shooting night and his torrent of turnovers?
I’d love specific examples, because I’m with TCC. Monta was the reason that game was close last night. I’m open to hearing why I’m wrong, but you’re going to have to provide more evidence than saying “re-watch the game.”
I think he's talking about the Pacers game.
In which Monta had an efficient shooting night.
Ah.
You’re not going to get complaints from me about Monta in the Pacer’s game. If that’s what you meant, Taf, I apologize.
exactly
That was my point, you can’t lump the two games. Monta was poor shooting v. Kings, it happens. Curry has those nights to and he’s a much more elite ‘shooter’. But the pacers game, nothing wrong.
That was my point, you can’t lump the two games. Monta was poor shooting v. Kings, it happens. Curry has those nights to and he’s a much more elite ‘shooter’.
There’s a big difference between Curry’s bad shooting games and Monta’s bad shooting games. You won’t see the combination of so many missed shots and so many turnovers, because most of the time Curry stops forcing it when it’s not going it, and starts relying more on his jumper off kicks from other players.
I don’t think you realize how damaging 17 missed shots plus 7 turnovers is. Curry’s worst shooting game of the season, he only took 15 shots, period (and only had two TOs).
I'm not suggesting that.
I’m suggesting that Monta’s final moments against the Pacers overshadow the larger fact that it should not have been that close, and that Monta playing well usually means that other players (Such as Steph) do not have the opportunity to play well, whereas Steph playing well means the opposite.
I’m suggesting that Monta’s final moments against the Pacers overshadow the larger fact that it should not have been that close
the smaller can’t overshadow the larger unless you are willing to only live for sunrises and sunsets and forfeit the bulk of the day..
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
I thought Step was really the man last night. I was so mad when Smart took him out. He was definitely the go-to guy and not Monta, at least for this game.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Post game
did anyone ask Smart what he was thinking? Curry exploded in the 3rd qter and we struggled it the 4th.
Which happens
Every game both anecdotally and statistically… but Smart has decided to take a tough love approach to Curry’s development, which, IMO, is the wrong approach. Tough love is the approach you take with someone who isn’t very coachable, Curry is the opposite and Smart is hurting his confidence more than teaching him to be a better player.
by warriorsablaze on Jan 22, 2011 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Curry seemed to be playing on tired legs in the first half when he only had 6 points and some bonehead plays
An optimist would say Smart did the right thing in having him rest because he had the energy to dominate when we needed him to in the fourth. A pessimist would say, so what if he played passively in the first half, he is better than Law (who did pretty well I thought) so he should play all 48 minutes.
oh don't get me wrong...
Curry doesn’t have Monta’s conditioning. Over 40 minutes and he’ll be dragging. He has seemed to have a difficult time getting “up” for games. Curry almost always plays better in the second half.
I only have problem with Smart benching Curry to teach him a lesson. Every one on the team gets turnovers or makes a bad pass, but Curry gets benched for that. Like I said, tough love isn’t the right approach for Curry. Of course, at times where someone’s just making mistakes all over the place, you gotta pull em, no matter who it is.
by warriorsablaze on Jan 22, 2011 12:59 PM PST up reply actions
General statement sure
But you can’t say that about last night.
The Golden State Warriors, we make Free Throws look difficult!
by Badly Browned on Jan 22, 2011 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
More recently, sure....
…. but especially early in the season, Smart would often bench Curry after one mistake or maybe two if he was generous.
I thought overall Curry had a good defensive game last night.
by warriorsablaze on Jan 22, 2011 1:30 PM PST up reply actions
Curry's defense was very good.
He limited Udrih to 6 points under his pg average despite him playing many more minutes.
…while Monta defended Tyreke very well, allowing him his career-high. I understand they were challenging him to take jumpers at first, but still.
Curry doesn’t have Monta’s conditioning.
what would be the reason for that?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 3:33 PM PST up reply actions
You remember that one play...
Where Steph caught the ball, drove, faked passing to a wide open Monta in the corner, and shot from 15ft? If you look at that in a totally negative light, it’s almost like Steph was saying, “You’ve had enough shots”. I laughed.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 22, 2011 12:34 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Mostly agree...
…. When Monta is running the offense, it is painfully stagnant. I love Monta this year, but man did he shoot Sac back into this game in the 4th quarter. Iso after iso….bricked jumper after bricked jumper…often after 0 passes for the possession. It’s on Smart to build an offense to maximize the player’s potential, he just doesn’t seem to understand what people’s strengths and weaknesses are. I also don’t understand why Curry and Reggie almost never play together unless Reggie is brought in as a 3 for some small ball. It’s weird and really makes no sense. The second unit with Monta at the point is terrible. Shit, bring in Acie and let Steph get some run at the 2.
by warriorsablaze on Jan 22, 2011 12:49 PM PST up reply actions
Well even
though I hated how Ellis played yesterday I have to admit that no one good was on the floor when monta took a lot of shots in the 4th quarter
by Curry for the win on Jan 22, 2011 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
That's not the point.
The point is that it is a better option to get your team involved if your shot isn’t going down. Monta didn’t do that. He kept shooting, and decided not to involve the rest of the team in the 4th quarter, and that is why it is so close. Good players make their shots, great players get others to make their shots. That’s what wins games.
That's not the point. The point is that it is a better option to get your team involved if your shot isn’t going down
That’s a very good point. Binky and the scrubs last year often made a lot out of nothing, that’s what changed my mind about his point guard skills and proved he’s more than just a fine shooter.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 3:36 PM PST up reply actions
Well -
- I think you’re right. I strongly suspect that Monta looks at his team when Lee and Curry aren’t on the floor, and he says, “Oh, I gotta take over.”
I think that’s why he was so bad last year – he hadn’t started to trust Curry yet, and he looked at the d-leaguers and said to himself, “it’s on me.”
The problem is that he’s wrong.
Because when he runs lots of isos and forces he issue, he’s not an effective player. It is better for the team to work for plays for Udoh, Brandan “Brendan” Wright, Law, and Reggie – and to have those plays come in the flow of the offense – than it is for Monta to run isos. No, none of those guys can create like Monta – but they don’t try to. The team offense can get shots. Heck, Monta will end up taking a bunch of those shots, anyway, but they’ll be better shots.
The Kings are a horrible team. We are much better than them when we play smart. Last night took OT to win because we – particularly Monta – played dumb.
by Ronaldinho on Jan 22, 2011 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Brings up a good question for Evanz
Can you chart Monta’s shooting in relation to who is on the court? From what I saw it seemed Monta shot much better with Curry, Lee, even Dorell on the floor than when they weren’t
I will fanshot Monta’s shot selection from this game with Curry / without Curry.
by samuraaaaiiiiiii on Jan 22, 2011 3:35 PM PST up reply actions
completely agree, rec'd
I’ve always thought that to be Monta’s main problem. He is not someone who can create an efficient shot on their own time and time again (almost no-one is) but when he feels doesn’t fully trust the other players on the court he trys to win the game on his own, which almost always fails, watching the game you can this change come over him and every aspect of his game changes with it and to the worse.
wow really crappy editing on that one
I apologize
You can say that again!
Andris Biedrins, not normally know as a gifted in man defense, made DeMarcus Cousins look bad, allowing him to pick up his dribble, make 17 pointless shifts and moves before taking a falling fadeaway that negates any semblance of advantage that a 7 foot tall behemoth should have over almost anyone in getting an easy basket. Biedrins, not normally gifted in man defense, made Cousins look bad, allowing him to pick up his dribble, make 17 pointless shifts and moves before taking a falling fadeaway that negates any semblance of advantage that a 7 foot tall behemoth should have over almost anyone in getting an easy basket.
The thong is, it happened.
Andris Biedrins, not normally know as a gifted in man defense, made DeMarcus Cousins look bad,
he didn’t look too bad for a young bigman rookie when he made that nice spin move? And his shooting is already much better than Dre can ever dream of. Cuz just needs more NBA experience and probably a better coach, the kings don’t seem to know how to regularly get him into a position to succeed.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 11:49 AM PST reply actions
He won't be anything special
"I have a picture of him, I look at it everyday on my computer screen." (Jim Harbaugh referring to Bill Walsh)
by GrayDilla on Jan 22, 2011 1:33 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
/makes choking motion with hands
"I have a picture of him, I look at it everyday on my computer screen." (Jim Harbaugh referring to Bill Walsh)
by GrayDilla on Jan 22, 2011 1:30 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Pee-Final 4 college basketball
WHO CARES?
"I have a picture of him, I look at it everyday on my computer screen." (Jim Harbaugh referring to Bill Walsh)
by GrayDilla on Jan 22, 2011 1:32 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Lol march madness*
"I have a picture of him, I look at it everyday on my computer screen." (Jim Harbaugh referring to Bill Walsh)
by GrayDilla on Jan 22, 2011 1:33 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
some thoughts from the game
this was another game that was won inspite of coaching. the starters played the entire 3rd quarter, which forced the subs to come in the game in the 4th. this was when the kings made their push, and it took close to a miracle to pull the game away. rest the starters in the 3rd so that they’re fresh for the 4th quarter push. that doesn’t seem to be that hard of a concept. also, steph was roasting hot in the 2nd half, while monta struggled, yet monta still had a majority of the plays called for him. on nights like that steph needs to have the plays that monta normally gets called for him
monta’s pretty tough, hopefully he won’t miss more than a game or 2
after wright’s great play in the 4th quarter against indiana, how does he go back to warming the bench for 3 quarters?
monta shooting 4 free throws is criminal. i don’t understand how a player with his skill having the type of year he’s having doesn’t get more respect
violet palmer is the worst official in the league. by a lot
It's mind boggling that Smart managed to top his horrible play-call last game ... and it worked again.
Not only did he run an iso again for a must-make shot, but he ran the clock down, first …
… despite the fact that the team was behind.
It’s mind-boggling. Yes, in a tie game, I understand the logic of running the clock down before you take the last shot, because you’re basically saying, “Worst case scenario, we go to OT,” but when you’re behind?
It’s absolute madness. You’ve got to give yourself a chance to get an offensive rebound, to steal the ball back, to foul and extend the game …
Smart’s not exactly 100% to blame here, right??—-reading MT2’s article shows that Smart basically deferred the decision of the last play to Monta. Monta asks him “Should I go quick?” and Smart says “just do you.”
I think this is even worse than giving a directive to a bad play—giving no directive at all. He seemingly decides to leave the coaching up to Monta, so if Monta makes a bad decision or doesn’t succeed, it’s not on him.
It did work, at least. Monta knew what being him was and knew what he was capable of. He went with a shot he knew he could make and made it. Maybe not the worst coaching to say, “Just do you,” particularly when it’s Monta. When Monta is Monta, he makes shots, particularly that kind of shot as we saw in the Pacers game. Apparently, Monta sees that shot as defining.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
Agreed.
There are players you can let make the decision on the floor.
Monta – for all his talent – isn’t one of them.
Last couple of games, at least, his shooting skill has been up to the challenge of his/Smart’s poor decision-making.
monta's decision making's been pretty good
he should have had at least 2 more assists last night if david lee could convert easy shots. There’s some bad mixed in as well, but overall I would trust the guy to make decisions and improvise.
Goal: 8 seed!
I wouldn't put Monta at fault here
Well, Keith sorta made that decision for him. Monta asked “Should I go early” and Keith replied “Just do you”. The fact that Monta even asked that question indicates that he thought it was probably best of him to go early, but Keith’s response probably made a strong implication to milk the clock. Putting myself into that situation, I’d have probably done the same thing. So I really don’t think it was his decision making on that one.
as non-NBA players or coaches, we lack the credibility to make this call
Monta is playing the best of his career, Smart obviously deserves some credit for that. If Monta is going to become the star his talent suggests he can become he will need to be trusted and challenged in these types of ways.
I don’t buy that you have to be in their little club to know good basketball. Generally, isos are bad basketball, and there’s pretty strong evidence behind that…
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2011 1:02 PM PST up reply actions
I got the impression the running the clock down part wasn’t part of the plans….
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
Almost guaranteed OT, though. Prevented them from getting a good shot.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
On the other hand a miss guaranteed a loss, which is the real problem.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
On the other hand a miss guaranteed a loss, which is the real problem.
it’s probably like the gambling defense, take a chance on luck bailing you out when you know you don’t have a good chance at doing it the right way?
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 3:54 PM PST up reply actions
That depends on a couple of things. If Monta goes for that shot and makes it 60% of the time, it’s not a bad decision. Maybe he was feeling it and “knew” he would make it.
Granted, statistically, a 3 pointer, if you could get one, was a better decision. If Monta was going to be 50/50 on that shot, it’s a 50/50 chance of tying and then, supposedly a 50/50 chance of winning in overtime. That’s a 25% chance of winning, which is why the 3 pointer is the way to go if possible.
Then again, it was the Kings. Bad defense and the Warriors were probably confident they could beat them in OT, which they did. Maybe not bad, all things considered.
Not the way I would have done things. I would have looked to have Curry go for a 3-pointer and look to get a big… wait, Biedrins was down and Lee isn’t going to compete with the Kings bigs on a put back that well. Meh, I guess the Monta decision wasn’t bad.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
If Monta goes for that shot and makes it 60% of the time, it’s not a bad decision. Maybe he was feeling it and "knew" he would make it.
It could still be a bad decision. The two decisions you have to compare are the following:
Take a shot at the buzzer, hit it, you go to OT. The probability that matters here is the probability of hitting the shot * the probability of winning in OT. That gives you the chance of winning the game.
Take a shot with a lot more time on the clock. First, this gives you more options. If you don’t get a good look at first, you don’t have to shoot, whereas when you’re up against the buzzer, you do. It also gives you more time to run something to get the shot you want, like a 3. So the chances of making the shot should be higher than in the first scenario, and the chances of getting a 3 point attempt should be higher, as well. So you take the shot, the next thing that matters is: do you make it or miss it? If you make, then the next probability that matters it the probability the Kings hit a game winner. If you miss, then what matters it the probability of getting an offensive rebound, and the probability of the defense rebounding it. Offensive rebound you get another chance and start this whole decision tree process over again. Defensive rebound you foul, and then it’s the chances of them hitting their FT, and an additional opportunity for you to tie it or win it afterwards. Then if the outcome is tied, the probability of winning in OT. As you can imagine, I have no intention of actually trying to estimate this probability. ;)
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2011 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
I still hate the decision to shoot at the buzzer, though.
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2011 8:22 AM PST up reply actions
i dont understand this insistence on calling iso plays as "horrible play calling"
almost every coach does this in the league in game-closing situations. It’s different of course if you only have 2 or 3 seconds left in the game, but in situations with 10+ seconds plus, you usually see iso plays winding down the clock and taking a last second shot.
I also feel that Smart not dictating Monta to take an early shot was, in some ways, forced by the situation. We got crushed on the boards last night and we were without Biedrins. Even if we were to get extremely lucky and get an offensive board, what if they got fouled? Would you trust a Gadz or a Vlad or even a Dorell Wright to make free throws in the clutcH?
Goal: 8 seed!
Right, coaches do it, and it’s stupid. It’s really frustrating watching how popular it’s become. It’s like the fade throw in football. There’s plenty of evidence that iso sets tend to produce low quality shots.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 3:34 PM PST up reply actions
o i definitely agree that an offense predicated on isos is bad offense
but in an end game situation, isos do have the following benefits:
-you decrease the chance of turnovers by eliminating almost all passes
-you get the ball into the correct player’s hands
-the other team can’t double team easily without creating an obvious opening. This is different from other set plays where u can mask a double with quick rotations
-it’s hard to set up a screen/roll when most of your bigs are on the bench due to FT and 3p reasons
Nor is this a recent trend. It’s been going on for a long, long time, since the Jordan days to be more precise
Goal: 8 seed!
I also don’t like the mentality of having a certain player take the shot. It makes sense for your best player to create a shot, but it seems like they often feel that means they have to be the one that actually shoots it. An open lesser teammates is usually a better option that a tough, contested shot by the best player. Especially since the player in the iso situation is going to have the other teams best defender on him.
At the very least I always prefer a pick and roll, and I want the player with the ball to be willing to pass to his teammates. I also generally hate taking a buzzer beater (though it made sense against the Pacers, for instance) – get the best quality shot possible. If that means there’s a few seconds left and a chance the other team might get a shot, so be it. Better than getting a crappy shot yourself. David Lee was out there last night. Use him.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 3:55 PM PST up reply actions
few things with this
I agree that an open lesser teammate is a better shot than an iso contested jumper. But it’s difficult to create situations where a lesser player is open. If u run the same play maybe five times in a game, u can determine player x will get open maybe once. That’s cuz if an NBA play is correctly defended, it’ll still get you a 1v1 situation, with the advantage to the offense coming from positioning and matchup. It’s rare for a player to be uncontested if the play is defended correctly, and more often than not they are correctly defended.
I agree with using a P&R, but only to an extent. If you Pick and Roll, you create rotation opportunities for the defending team. The big man can step out to cover you while the small stays on you, while another player comes to rotate the roller. It also creates that slight degree of uncertainty where the guard needs to make a pass and the roller needs to catch the pass. Small uncertainties, to be sure, but they add up. That Turiaf P&R last year where he dropped a last second pass from Curry serves as an example of this.
Goal: 8 seed!
If that’s your concern, run a pick and pop where you have enough spacing that the defense can’t rotate much better than in the iso situation. If nothing else it helps create a mismatch and/or put the on ball defender at a disadvantage.
Also don’t really agree that more often than not, NBA defenses force the offense into 1 v 1 situations. I’m not necessarily talking about wide open, nobody within 10 feet of you shots. I’m talking about normal quality looks – your typical VladRad 3 pointer, for instance, you know, the kind he shoots 5.7 times per 36 minutes over his career and at a 38% clip. That’s a 57% TS%. Creating a shot like that isn’t that difficult. What I can tell you is running an iso when you don’t have a mismatch will definitely create a worse shot than that, on average. Isos are inefficient. They’re bad plays. Being late in the game doesn’t make them efficient, if it changes anything, it’s just how much second guessing falls on the coach.
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2011 8:29 AM PST up reply actions
Let's take consideration for the defense
Vs. the Spurs or Celtics or a quality defensive team… we don’t run it. Vs. Tyreke Evans who is young and easy to bate into a bad decision… not so bad
what I don't get is
why not have an iso on one side and screens on the other, make the defense work and spread their focus around the floor.
by Anonymous1337 on Jan 22, 2011 3:52 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I prefer at least a pick and roll, but yes, at the very least, I agree, run something to distract the help defenders.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 3:56 PM PST up reply actions
Is there a good reason to think the timing has any effect on the actual outcome? Let’s say in a given 5 minutes, we expect the bench guys to go -5 and the starters to go +5. If those expectations were consistent, it wouldn’t matter whether you sit the starters in the third Q or 4th Q, the outcome would remain the same. Is there any reason to think that somehow we’ll get better results playing our subs in the 3rd quarter rather than the 4th quarter?
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 2:17 PM PST up reply actions
I can't think of a logical reason why there would be -
- unless you were trying to match your subs up with someone else’s starters.
let's just say
the subs go -5 like u say. i’d rather have 8-12 minutes of 4th quarter to try and make up that deficit, rather than have the -5 come halfway thru the 4th and only have about 2-3 minutes left in the game to make it up
. i’d rather have 8-12 minutes of 4th quarter to try and make up that deficit, rather than have the -5 come halfway thru the 4th and only have about 2-3 minutes left in the game to make it up
this whole"good team" , “bad team” idea sucks. Better to always have a decent team on the floor by rotating in one player and resting one starter at a time.
Lights please, lights please, turn off the lights.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 22, 2011 3:52 PM PST up reply actions
I generally agree, though I do think there probably are some times when certain guys play better together and thus should be used in a unit.
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
Well, the starters have more time in the 4th, true, but they also have a bigger deficit going into the 4th because of what the subs did in the 3rd….
by Missing Barry on Jan 22, 2011 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
I think Smart maybe puts in his best defenders at the beginning of the 4th, perhaps to get set the defensive tone and to get the opposing team out of rhythm? As a defensive minded guy, that’s the kind of philosophy I would have, if my starting lineup didn’t play defense well.
And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is Monta Ellis when I lay my vengeance upon thee.
All I can say is
“More Ekpe Udoh!!!!!!!!!!!”
"You're early, but hang around; we'll have a fight for you sooner or later."
-John "Blue Moon" Odom
I think it’s perfectly reasonable to trust Smart when he doesn’t think a rookie who’s basically two months into his NBA career is ready. The dude missed training camp, preseason, tons of practice time…..yeah, there’s a lot to learn…
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2011 8:32 AM PST up reply actions
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