Do you still have faith in Lacob? Read up.
by dandubz on Mar 7, 2011 4:41 PM PST
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PrintTake it back to this time one year ago....
Word that the Warriors were for sale just sprung, and everyone was ecstatic. The Larry Ellison campaign began, and we all thought the Warriors were saved and destined to be a Western Conference powerhouse.
Then Lacob came along, got together some partners, and snatched the dubs from right under Ellison's nose. Everyone was confused and not sure what to think, but then we heard the man speak of "winning basketball" and "making the Warriors a force to be reckoned with."
False hopes? Surely not.
Remember the summer? Lacob was swift to relieve Nelson and the 6 million owed to him, and traded for Lee. Warriors fans went ballistic, playoff hopes skyrocketed, and everyone thought the Warriors were the 5 or 6th best team in the conference.
Halfway through the season, we see that the Warriors are just a lower level of mediocrity and everyone expected use of the expirings to bring a difference maker in.
Fair assumption. Expirings are valuable, but with the CBA up in the air, their power was lessened. The deadline came and went, the Warriors made no major changes, and now everyone is calling for Lacob's head.
Let's take a step back here. Now we're not GM's, so we don't know what kinds of deals were floating around. So lets use what we know of the two players traded on the deadline that fit the Warriors' needs to see if the Dubs could have done anything to make the team better.
- Gerald Wallace - Traded for 2 FIRST ROUND picks, 2 centers, and 1 PF. The Warriors could make no where near to what the Blazers offered without losing the core and/or our 2 good bench players (Williams and Udoh.) Sure, we could have given up Steph (not Monta, because the Bobcats wanted to shed salary.) But is that really what we would have wanted? Monta at the point, Wright at the 2 and GW at the 3? We've seen Monta attempt to play the 1 before and it just does not work. He is an off-ball 2 guard and will forever remain so. So that deal is squashed
- Kendrick Perkins - Traded for Krstic, Green, AND a First round pick. Again, the warriors lack the talent (player wise) and draft pick to pull this deal off. The closest we could have come to this deal without it heavily favoring Boston would be Beans and Udoh... If you're the Celtics GM, which deal would YOU take?... Exactly.
We have to realize that these kinds of things aren't one sided. Lacob can't say, "I'm giving you Vlad and Gadz and you're gonna give me Perkins." We have to look at it from the other teams perspective as well. The Bobcats and Celtics took the best deal they could get and the best deal was not made by the Warrior's, plain and simple. Is that Lacob's fault? Absolutely not. He simply did not have the means, be it with picks or players, to interest other teams and convince them to do the swaps.
So relax, and give the man some time... Rome wasn't built in a day. ;)
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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I think most of us still have faith in Lacob
The main problem is Keith Smart.
"It ain't Chinese algebra. If you get stops and you execute on offense, normally that team wins." - Tony Allen
"One thing LeBron James has won that Kobe Bryant never has, and never will: A bronze medal."- Josh Tucker
this.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
still plenty of time for trades/FA/picks
I am just worried Smart will hurt our player development before the season ends…
Otherwise, I like Lacobs Venture Capitalist approach to evaluate the situation for the year…but the coach is really killing our future.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
I’m not ready to pass judgment yet. It hasn’t even been a full year, and I was not expecting a complete overhaul right off the bat.
Agree on Perkins
Not so much on Wallace. The W’s could have easily beat that offer (Portland gave up NOTHING) without breaking up their core. It seems like they just didn’t want to give up a first round pick in a weak draft. Mark my words: this is a 7-8 man draft at best. The Warriors are probably going to be right outside the range of getting a decent player.
I haven’t completely lost faith, but not getting Wallace, signing Thornton, and proclaiming that the team is building around Curry and Monta have me a little worried.
Warriors CANNOT trade a first rounder for the next couple of years..
we only get our pick this year if its in the top 7 (which wont happen unless serious tanking goes on). and im not sure on the reason as to why we cant trade a first rounder for a couple years, but i did read it on espn a while back so its validated.
Monta Ellis is God
“We could’ve gotten Gerald Wallace–he’s not somebody we thought would make us better.”
yes they cannot move first rounders, but despite that fact, they could have got Wallace if Lacob is to be believed and didn’t. now, we don’t know what it would have took (so we can’t say whether it was good or bad), but we do know a deal could have been done and the W’s said no.
by homer simpson on Mar 7, 2011 6:30 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, nearly anyone is gettable, but...
at what price? like you said, we don’t know what it would have taken. Steph? Udoh and Reggie? the fact of the matter is Portland gave up non-factors plus draft picks to attain wallace. The bobcats would not have agreed to that trade without the 2 first rounders. We would have to sacrifice in order to get him.. Portland made their team significantly better with this trade while any trade made by us would have resulted in giving up significant talent to recieve significant talent.
Monta Ellis is God
my point was merely that the W’s not having 1st rounders did not prevent them from making a trade (which is what you stated earlier).
another thing. 1st rounders aren’t all that valuable in the 1st place . i forget which stat guy it was (i want to say Hollinger), but i think 2 out of every 3 1st rounders does not get a 2nd contract.
i’m not sure if this is true, but i’ve also read that since 2000, the only non-lottery 1st rounders to make multiple all-star games are Tony Parker (3) and Rondo (2) — though there are plenty of fake all-stars who made it once like David Lee and Jameer Nelson.
obviously, it depends on what was asked, but outside of Curry, it gets sketchy. though i can see the hesitation if Udoh, Reggie and DW were all required.
by homer simpson on Mar 7, 2011 11:12 PM PST up reply actions
sorry man
This season was the year of the 1st rounder. I think every single trade except one revolved around a 1st rounder or more. With the CBA looming, I think owners saw first rounders as safer bets than overpaying a player.
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
? i’m not sure you saw the quote, but Lacob straight says in the link i quoted above that
We could’ve gotten Gerald Wallace–he’s not somebody we thought would make us betterseeing as how the W’s cannot move a 1st rounder, that means that either Lacob is lied or that they could have made an unknown deal that they turned down b/c they thought “he (was) not somebody (they) thought would make (them) better.”
by homer simpson on Mar 8, 2011 1:34 PM PST up reply actions
right, but
We could’ve gotten Gerald Wallace
could mean a lot of things.
I’m pretty sure if we offered Steph, Udoh, plus “anything else you want” we could have gotten Wallace, but it would not have made the team better.
I think with many of these deals, you expect to get slightly shafted, but you are going to have to really weigh the cost to acquire a guy….especially since the Dubs have so few valuable assets right now
"There’s no such thing as off the charts, just get a bigger piece of paper. If you can’t figure that out you shouldn’t be charting anything" - Skep
by Duby Dub Dubs on Mar 8, 2011 2:12 PM PST up reply actions
It was just dumb for Lacob to make this comment if he was not going to give details.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Mar 8, 2011 2:52 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, all i was pointing out was that not having a 1st rounder was not an issue in getting Wallace (if Lacob is to be believed).
though to your point, and i’m assuming here, but he makes it sound as though they could add him w/o losing any of what he considered primary players… or else why not say we could’ve gotten Wallace, but the asking price was too high.
by homer simpson on Mar 9, 2011 8:30 PM PST up reply actions
I think
Murphy’s contract, Udoh and the 2014 pick would be comparable to Portland’s expiring and two late 1st rounders.
by San Francisco Slim on Mar 10, 2011 7:07 AM PST up reply actions
I'm actually pretty sure we keep our pick
if it’s lottery, not just top 7. Maybe 8.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Mar 9, 2011 5:12 PM PST up reply actions
Lacob on KNBR right now
"The No. 1 thing (fans need to know): we’re going to do our damnedest to bring the Warriors to respectability on the basketball court." - Joe Lacob
I just got done listening to the podcast of Lacob’s interview on KNBR. The thing that caught my ear was that he said Larry Riley is currently in Europe.
Could it be that we’re targeting a foreign player in the draft, or should we brush this off as Riley simply doing his due diligence?
by Slightly Hyphy on Mar 7, 2011 7:12 PM PST up reply actions
and if so, any guesses as to the player he’s going all the way to Europe to see in person?
by Slightly Hyphy on Mar 7, 2011 7:13 PM PST up reply actions
I hope he's scouting Jonas Valuncianus
You know I spit technique to the freshest freak
Gimme a call you will see results in just a week
With the soul of a LOST HAWK
Is there a heaven for a Rap Cat, let's talk
GMs
are always in Europe. Part of their job, due diligence of draft/FA research. Doesn’t mean they have something in the works.
by San Francisco Slim on Mar 10, 2011 7:10 AM PST up reply actions
I have faith in Lacob, but even if I didn’t, does it matter? I’m stuck with him!
Anyway, great post. It was very well thought out, well rationalized, and realistic. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
I'm glad you wrote this post
1. Too early with Lacob. Most of what we see was garnered pre-Lacob.
2. Trade deadline we were handcuffed with Mullin’s foolish NJ trade giving us no flexibility with draft choices going out.
3. Smart he kind of had to go along with.
4. Riley, like all GMs or one of his top assistants, goes to Europe as a matter of course. It doesn’t make it more likely we’re drafting a player from there.
5. Many teams are starting to utilize statistical analysis in their decision making, both in who to bring into the fold, and in how to call games (sub patterns, plays called for whom etc.) Boston is one of those teams. SA, Houston and OKC are another few. See a trend? (And Hous is good more due to Ming’s injuries.)
It is my hope soon, likely after this season, we will have a more tactical, less “feel” coach (who still has feel,) and tougher, more ballsy and shrewd GM, all based off an understanding and use of these deeper stats winning teams are going to (hey, how about that, just like in Baseball.)
by supersugarCrisp on Mar 7, 2011 8:48 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Hou ISN'T good more...
…due to Mings injuries is what that’s meant to say.
by supersugarCrisp on Mar 7, 2011 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
houston is ok
they are above .500
more than we can say about the Dubs these days
"There’s no such thing as off the charts, just get a bigger piece of paper. If you can’t figure that out you shouldn’t be charting anything" - Skep
by Duby Dub Dubs on Mar 8, 2011 2:13 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, i hope so too.
Steph Curry and Reggie Williams all day baby!
by GovernorStephCurry on Mar 7, 2011 9:10 PM PST up reply actions
I would prefer a more strategic and less tactical coach.
I don’t think the system Sloan had in Utah required Sloan to jump around like a cheer leader trying to convince his teams that winning home games was important. Also I have heard that they had basically 6 offensive plays. That means at that level it is not really about the X’s and O’s. It seams like Utah could plug anybody into that system and they would approach their potential. I think it is more important to maximize talent this way and let the wins come as a result of preparation and then only to a lesser extent managing in game match ups. Of coarse a coach on a one year try out is not going to get us even started in this direction. I would like to see a young coach pulled up from the college ranks and given a long term deal (Contingent on certain goals being attained). I would prefer a foreign coach over promoting an assistant coach. Assistant coaches are more likely good brown nosers vs competent leaders. I would consider international coaches. I am always impressed how well the international teams are able to challenge the US with far less talent.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Mar 7, 2011 9:59 PM PST up reply actions
What if he can't ? 0_o
Steph Curry and Reggie Williams all day baby!
by GovernorStephCurry on Mar 7, 2011 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
Faith might be the wrong word.
I don’t expect Lacob to be perfect.
I’m also not going to evaluate his moves with the benefit of hindsight. I still think, for example, that firing Nelson was the right choice – even if Smart is clearly not the solution. (We had very few other options).
If the David Lee s&t proved to be a mistake, at least it’s a mistake of activity, of trying to make things happen, as opposed to a mistake of cowardice and passivity. Again, I don’t expect perfection, I expect consistent good-faith attempts to improve the team.
So far I’ve seen that. But we can reevaluate all of that this summer, when we see what happens with Rowell, Riley, and Smart.
by Ronaldinho on Mar 8, 2011 10:02 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
+1
well said!
"There’s no such thing as off the charts, just get a bigger piece of paper. If you can’t figure that out you shouldn’t be charting anything" - Skep
by Duby Dub Dubs on Mar 8, 2011 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
If the David Lee s&t proved to be a mistake, at least it’s a mistake of activity, of trying to make things happen, as opposed to a mistake of cowardice and passivity.
By this logic, the signing of Corey Maggette was a “mistake of activity” as well… should Cohan et al be credited for a good-faith attempt to improve the team? If doing something means you’re trying, Cohan definitely tried… the team did all sorts of things under him. Front office passivity doesn’t strike me as something that’s afflicted the Warriors over the years.
NBA teams sometimes screw themselves over by being passive. They far more commonly screw themselves over by proactively making a mistake, and that mistake is usually to drastically overpay somebody, as the Warriors did with Lee. I would much rather the front office be passive than shrug its way into high-eight-figure mistakes like Maggette and Lee.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Well, to me the Magette move was more obviously dumb than the Lee one.
But you and I disagree on that, I suspect.
My point is that I’m not inherently afraid of risky moves to improve the team, and just because they don’t work out doesn’t mean they were something ownership should be criticized for.
Judging Lacob on Lee would then depend on whether you think there was a reasonable chance that Lee could improve the team or not. To me it was obvious what Mags was going to give us before we signed him, and clearly not worth it.
I'd honestly take the Maggs move over Lee because we didn't give up anything, and his contract wasn't nearly as bad.
Steph Curry and Reggie Williams all day baby!
by GovernorStephCurry on Mar 9, 2011 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
Maggette also had an extensive track record of helping his teams play better — not well, but better — unlike Lee. That changed in Oakland, where it was inexplicably decided that Maggette was a power forward, but that’s not a function of the signing.
Lee was younger, of course, and Lee is an extremely healthy player, while Maggette was an extremely unhealthy player at the time we signed him. All told, I’d take the Lee contract over the Maggette contract. But it’s not a huge gap, and the fact that Lee also cost us Randolph makes the gap smaller still. A bad team overpaying for a guy is one thing… a bad team overpaying and parting with young talent is another.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Maggette was a better player than Lee
At the time of the transactions. Maggette was underrated because he played on the Clippers, while Lee was overrated because he played on the Knicks and made the All-Star team (albeit for the much thinner Eastern team).
However, Lee was younger and should age better than Maggette. Maggette was and is injury prone and is not aging well. He is a short non-shooting skilled forward, whose game is based on quick drives to the basket. Lee is more skilled and tall, so his game will age better.
Don’t know why I just said all that, because I disagreed with the Lee sign and trade at the time, and still do. I would so much rather have Randolph, Brandon Wright and Azubuike’s and Turiaf’s expiring contracts right now, than Lee and his contract.
by San Francisco Slim on Mar 10, 2011 7:24 AM PST up reply actions
Judging Lacob on Lee would then depend on whether you think there was a reasonable chance that Lee could improve the team or not.
To me, it’s a more nuanced question than that.
Was it reasonable to believe that Lee would improve the team, that he would contribute more to our winning games this season than Turiaf, Azuibuike and Randolph would have? I think so.
Was it reasonable to believe that Lee would improve the team to the point where the team would actually be any good? In my opinion, it was not. Given that, giving up eighty million dollars and a high-upside young player for the guy seemed like a fool’s errand.
You can’t just cut any deal, at any price, that you think will improve your team. Several variables matter: how much you’d need to pay the player, how much you think the player is worth, how much flexibility you have, what other talent you could gain, now or in the future, with that flexibility, and — critically — how good or bad your team is to begin with. And in making the Lee trade, I’d say that the Warriors weighed just about all of these variables incorrectly. They paid David Lee far, far more than anyone else showed any interest in doing; they overvalued his contributions, both in a vacuum and relative to other talent they could’ve gained or retained with the money; and they overestimated how close the team was to being competitive to begin with.
To me it was obvious what Mags was going to give us before we signed him, and clearly not worth it.
To me it was obvious that we didn’t really need a small forward at the time, which struck me as the main problem with the Maggette signing. He’s a fairly effective player at his natural position, not worth what we paid, but not worth a massive amount less, either. The guy scores with extreme frequency and efficiency and rebounds his position pretty well… that ain’t chicken feed.
Don’t get me wrong: it wasn’t a good signing. But the Lee sign-and-trade wasn’t good, either. Both were thoughtless moves to prove that the Warriors cared about winning, as though wanting to win were more important than knowing how. And as long as this franchise operates with that “heart over brains” mentality, it will fail.
Golden State Worriers: Angst & Analysis
Those signings were wrong for different reasons, imo
Maggette was a very good, very underrated player while he wallowed with the Clippers. But he was 30, which can be old for an NBA player, particularly in his case, because he was a short forward whose game was based more on athleticism than skills. His game is not dissimilar to Monta’s. He was a superior driver/ finisher who led the league in going to the line and had just a good enough of an outside shooting game to keep the defenses honest. But once his athletic skills started deteriorating and his body started breaking down more and more due to all the contact he created, he did not have the neccessary skills to remain a good offensive player.
Clearly, Chris Mullin didn’t have the foresight to see Maggette’s decline coming right around the bend.
Lee, meanwhile should remain at his level for some time. But absolutely agree with you that he is not a “difference maker”. And an $80 million contract which limits the team’s future transactions is a difference make type contract. To give up salary cap flexability, which is such a key to building a good team, along with the potential of a player like Randolph for a player, whom while decent to pretty good, is not close to being an elite player, is a bad deal.
Not a good sign that Lacob signed off it.
by San Francisco Slim on Mar 10, 2011 7:47 AM PST up reply actions
when the leader of your franchise calls out the lifetime fans who feed the constant losing
you are in big trouble
Trade Sabean/jk...Overthrow the Ydorks...
I am not a "real" Warriors fan because I don't have season tickets.
I smelled a rat early on.
And I will take credit for being one of the first to post as such.
Posted 3-8-2011
How about we raise our expectations for our new ownership group? If they can’t afford more talent then I am not sure I really see any improvement over Cohan. Also if our supposed NBA insider new owner cannot land a quality coach prior to next season then “Poser” is the word that comes to mind. If the best our new owner can do is hire his NEPATOAD son and promote a bone pile assistant coach who’s claim to fame is coaching just good enough to get the Labron draft pick then I will proclaim shenanigans.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
I meen posted 2-8-11
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Mar 8, 2011 11:54 AM PST up reply actions
I'm giving him more than a minute to make moves.
Perk and Wallace are nice pieces, but they aren’t pieces that really help your team unless you already have some great pieces. Those moves would just take the team closer to mediocrity.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
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