Some Perspective on Jeremy Lin
by doubleteapot on Jun 29, 2011 11:33 PM PDT
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Jeremy Lin didn't exactly light the NBA world on fire after he was signed by the Warriors. However, Lin didn't deserve a lot of the criticism which he received. He did everything he was supposed to do, and was a good player considering his spot on the rotation.
Jeremy Lin wasn't paid to start. He was paid to be a backup guard and fill in whenever the situation required it. That's exactly what he did, contributing about half a win to the Warriors. For an end of the bench player, that's not bad, especially on a rookie minimum contract. Consider the Warriors' "major" free agent acquisition, Louis Amundson. He was expected to be a solid contributor off the bench. Instead, he was grossly overpaid for producing 0.6 wins. His PER also dropped to a ghastly 11.3 compared to Lin's 14.8, which is close to the league average of 15.0.
In addition, here's how Lin's salary compares to other players' salary using Win Shares (which is imperfect, but it still gives a good idea of what a player contributed to his team). It shows how cost-effective a player's contract was.
| Player | Salary | Win Shares | Amount paid per Win Share |
| Reggie Williams | 762,195 | 3.7 | 205,999 |
| Stephen Curry | 2,913,040 | 6.6 | 441,370 |
| Dorell Wright | 3,500,000 | 5.8 | 603,448 |
| Jeremy Lin | 473,604 | 0.5 | 947,208 |
| Acie Law | 668,757 | 0.7 | 955,367 |
| Al Thornton | 295,040 | 0.3 | 983,467 |
| Rodney Carney | 345,988 | 0.3 | 1,153,293 |
| Jeff Adrien | $254,446 | 0.2 | 1,272,230 |
| David Lee | 10,800,000 | 6 | 1,800,000 |
| Monta Ellis | 11,000,000 | 6 | 1,833,333 |
| Vlad Rad | 6,883,800 | 2.1 | 3,278,000 |
| Andris Biedrins | 9,000,000 | 2.6 | 3,461,538 |
| Louis Amundson | 2,225,000 | 0.6 | 3,708,333 |
| Ekpe Udoh | 3,065,040 | 0.7 | 4,378,629 |
| Troy Murphy | 11,968,253 | 0 | infinity |
| Charlie Bell | 3,844,000 | -0.1 | paid to lose games |
Notice how most of the cheaper contracts are at the top.
Moral of the chart: it is hard to not live up to a minimum contract. Players at the end of the bench are expected to sop up minutes and not trip over their own feet. Most players in the NBA could do that. What puts Jeremy Lin over the top is that he is cheap. A good 12th man not only sops ups minutes, but is also cheap and therefore cost-effective. Jeremy Lin was all of that.
Another thing to take from this chart: Reggie, Steph and Dorell are all due big raises. Generally, cheaper contracts should be at the top while more expensive contracts should be at the bottom, which makes Steph's and Dorell's contracts stand out. Reggie was paid absurdly little per win he contributed.
Note: I am not a Jeremy Lin homer. Nevertheless, for an undrafted rookie on a minimum contract, he has gotten absurdly too much flak. What can anyone realistically expect from an undrafted rookie on a minimum contract? Jeremy Lin got a disproportionate amount of media attention, which raised expectations too high. Unless he is completely awful and prevents the Warriors from winning games, he's a nice cheap 11th or 12th man. If anyone was wrong, it's the Warriors for hyping him up when they didn't even expect to play him big minutes.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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-Jeremy Lin is a gimmick, nothing more, nothing less.
-We’re still paying TMurph? I has a sad
-Someone, anyone, please blow up this team
RE
He isn’t a gimmick, a PER of 14.9 is better than almost half the players in the league.
Jeremy Lin needs to leave GS because by staying he will always be dismissed as some marketing gimmick which is a disservice to recognizing his legit NBA talent.
Read further down
Read the posts further down this page. Lin is better than half the players on the team based on standard or advanced performance metrics.
Fans like you decided long ago before you ever saw him play that he was a gimmick. Nothing he does in the past or future will change your preconceived notion/bias.
I think it would be best for Lin to just sign somewhere else, because he CAN legitimately play, his PER suggests he already performs at average NBA starter level, and he won’t ever get recognized as a legit player until he leaves GS. GS has a long history of letting talented players go, so it won’t be the first time a player leaves and does very well somewhere else.
I just checked Lin's stats after mid-February
After mid-February, Lin shot 52% for the rest of the season, and kept up extremely high efficiency rates for rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
Lin’s FG% and true FG% were also extremely high in the D-league, so there’s definitely promise that Lin can be an effective and efficient offensive scorer moving forward.
mid-february
is an arbitrary cut-off point that doesn’t mean anything. It means even less because he only played 5 games in february, 2 in march and 5 in April. That’s nothing.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 7, 2011 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
It's Relevant
It’s relevant because that is when he returned from the D-League. If you include his D-league numbers it’s an even bigger sample size, and he shot 50% in the D-league with very high true FG% as well.
Why are you so dead set on hating on Jeremy Lin? You’ve posted many times now, all with ZERO actual facts or numbers to back up anything you say, meanwhile all you do is deny or marginalize any evidence. Your arguments are all subjective, but you won’t accept objective evidence.
I’m using a specific definition of relevance- the statistical one. That’s a nice moment in Lin’s career, but it doesn’t make it a statistically relevant one.
If you include his D-league numbers it’s an even bigger sample size, and he shot 50% in the D-league with very high true FG% as well.
No, the D-League is a different sample from the NBA one. It doesn’t contribute, it’s just a separate set of data. The level of competition is so much lower in the d-league. There are almost no good rim protectors, so guards like Lin who can’t shoot are able to score efficiently.
Also- you keep saying “true FG%.” Do you mean effective field goal (eFG%) or true shooting percentage (TS%)? I can’t tell which you mean. I also don’t know what is average in the D-League and I expect you don’t either.
Why are you so dead set on hating on Jeremy Lin?
I don’t. I wanted the guy to get more minutes last season because he wasn’t Acie Law.
You’ve posted many times now, all with ZERO actual facts or numbers to back up anything you say, meanwhile all you do is deny or marginalize any evidence
The facts I’m using have less to do with Lin and more to do with statistics and your arguments. You keep using non-meaningful statistics to argue in favor of Jeremy Lin. You’re using an irrelevant 300 minute, garbage time sample and cutting it down to a 100 or so minute sample for no good reason. I am “marginalizing” your evidence because your evidence is marginal. His per minute steals are too high to continue. His TS% is almost too low to continue (within the realm of NBA players, though.) Basically, there is almost nothing to take seriously from <10 minutes a game for <30 games. When I am on hoopdata.com and I use minutes cut offs towards the end of the season, I usually go with 20+ minutes, 40+ games. That’s 800 minutes or more from all of those players. I’d accept 600 minutes as a cutoff, which Lin falls far short of.
Your arguments are all subjective, but you won’t accept objective evidence.
Your arguments are misleading. You continue to cherry pick and twist the statistics to support your preconceived notions of Jeremy Lin. Multiple posters have pointed out to you that Lin didn’t play a relevant amount of minutes for his stats to mean anything, but you continue to quote the same statistics over and over and over. I like a GOOD statistically informed argument, not what you’ve been doing.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 12, 2011 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
basically its like me pointing out that stephen curry shot 71% last year
in games that monta didn’t play. sure its true, but that doesn’t mean its meaningful
I agree with you that it’s difficult to draw solid conclusions about Lin’s ability at the NBA level based on his limited minutes. However, how would you substantiate the claim:
There are almost no good rim protectors [in the D-League], so guards like Lin who can’t shoot are able to score efficiently.
By your own admittance, you can’t use Lin’s poor NBA TS% to evaluate his shooting ability because he played so few minutes at the pro level. On the other hand, Lin shot 38.9% from 3pt range in 600+ minutes in the D-League, putting him slightly ahead of although statistically equivalent to other higher profile rookies who were sent down to the NBDL this past season like Dominique Jones and Luke Babbitt. Lin also shot 37.2% in his last two seasons at Harvard (33% career).
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 14, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
No one plays defense in the D-League. Unless his stats in the D-League were truly and consistently outstanding (like Reggie Williams), I don’t see them as being useful.
I’d also point out that the NBA three and the college three are different. That difference matters. Some guys have that 21 foot in range and others have that 24 foot in range. Same situation as the d-league- a guy has to be truly outstanding from 3, not just okay, for me to take it seriously.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 14, 2011 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s not how arguments work, Reverend. You insinuated that Lin was a poor shooter. After relentlessly chastising BayMind for lacking credible evidence, it’s only fair that you should provide a “good statistically informed argument” to support your claim. Please enlighten us, what makes Lin a poor shooter?
Furthermore, it’s interesting that you brought up Reggie Williams. He shot 41.0% from the 3pt line in the D-League, Lin 38.9%. In college, Williams shot a career 30.2% and Lin 33.3%. Does this mean that Reggie Williams also “can’t shoot”?
Lastly, I’m pretty sure everyone here is well aware that the NBA and college 3pt lines are different. That’s not the issue at hand, but rather if Lin can shoot well from long range. What the statistics show–unless you can demonstrate otherwise–is that Lin is at the very least capable of making open shots from over 20ft at a decent rate.
Further reading:
Jeremy Lin D-League Statistics
Reggie Williams D-League Statistics
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 15, 2011 6:41 AM PDT up reply actions
With Reggie, I was mostly referring to the fact that his overall FG% and TS% were amazing outstanding in the D-League- he led the D-League in scoring and shot over 57% from the field and posted a TS% of .676.
I’d also point out that Lin only took 36 threes in his time in the d-league. Again, small sample. To my eyes, Reggie Williams’ stats indicate a player you call up from the D-League. Jeremy Lin’s stats show a guy you would probably leave in the D-League.
Really, more than anything, I’m trying to show BayMind that Jeremy Lin’s NBA stats don’t mean anything, especially his steals numbers which are just too good to be true.
I have to admit, this is kind of a situation where I watched Jeremy Lin play basketball and saw a guy who wasn’t much of a shooter. I would change my mind about it if he gets the time next year to get a real percentage going.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 15, 2011 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
yea he was only 1-5 3s last season
but 2 of them were airballed when he was wide open. decent to good shooters don’t airball open 3s.
You mean like Kobe? Kobe airballs open 3, among others
Lebron? Airballs open jumper, airballs open 3, and airballs free throw
What about Dwayne Wade? Wade airballs uncontested jumper
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 16, 2011 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions
you missed the point
if any of those guys only took 5 open 3s, how many of them would airball 2.
i would guess you could go through their whole careers
and not find a stretch of 5 open 3s where they airballed 2 of them.
Do you even have a point? You “would guess you could go through [Kobe, Lebron and Wade’s] whole careers and not find a stretch of open 3s where they airballed 2 of them”? Well aside from that video I just posted, right? The one where Kobe airballs 4 times in a span of about 5 minutes? And now, on top of that, you want to compare the careers of winners of multiple season and NBA Finals MVP awards to the rookie season of Jeremy Lin where he attempted 5 3-point shots?
Also, two of Lin’s missed 3s were forced shots at the end of the shot clock. You can check the play-by-plays here if you don’t believe me. Plenty of lengendary shooters have done that. Here is one of Ray Allen missing the basket entirely with 2 seconds left on the shotclock.
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 16, 2011 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Well aside from that video I just posted, right? The one where Kobe airballs 4 times in a span of about 5 minutes?
only one of those was an open 3.
And now, on top of that, you want to compare the careers of winners of multiple season and NBA Finals MVP awards to the rookie season of Jeremy Lin where he attempted 5 3-point shots?
you’re the one that mentioned them, not me, so who is the one comparing them? and if lin airballs more 3s in his 5 open shots than any of those players do in the worst 5 shot stretch of open 3s in their entire careers (and lebron and wade aren’t even good shooters), then that just shows how bad of a shooter lin really is.
Also, two of Lin’s missed 3s were forced shots at the end of the shot clock. You can check the play-by-plays here if you don’t believe me. Plenty of lengendary shooters have done that. Here is one of Ray Allen missing the basket entirely with 2 seconds left on the shotclock.
that also was a contested shot. every single 3 that lin took was completely wide open (including the ones at the end of the shot clock). you don’t seem to understand that. being at the end of the shot clock does not affect how you shoot a wide open 3. it’s not like he tossed it up off balance to beat the shot clock. he was set on every single one of them.
any way to want to spin it
it doesn’t take a genius to see that lin is not a good shooter at the NBA level. he gets too flustered and shoots it too far. if he can shoot at other levels, well thats just great for him. but if it doesn’t transfer to his NBA game then it doesn’t help us. hopefully he spends the offseason working on it.
I mentioned Kobe, Lebron and Wade because you stated, “decent to good shooters don’t airball open 3s.” I provided evidence to the contrary, which in turn caused you to backpedal more than a politician. In addition, I wasn’t comparing Lin to any of them; you did when you tried to compare Lin’s 5 3-point attempts with theirs. Please brush up on your reading comprehension.
“Every single 3 that [L]in took was completely wide open”, huh? You mean like this one? Maybe I’m seeing things but that seems to be Patty Mills contesting his shot. But hey, you stated it, so it must be true.
In conclusion, you’re crazy if you’re basing your assessment of Lin’s shooting abilities on 5 attempts. That’s light years worse than BayMind. Congratulations.
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 16, 2011 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Kobe, LeBron and Wade are all below average 3 point shooters.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 16, 2011 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
and no i'm not basing him being a bad shooter on his 5 3s that he attempted this season
my opinion is based on the 72 shot attempts that he took in the nba this season (plus his shooting form in general). someone else brought up the topic that 3s = shooting.
to which i merely pointed out that he airballed 2 wide open 3s
when he only took 5 all season. and i stand by the statement that a good shooter would not do that.
i mean
when biedrins shot 4-25 free throws the previous season, would anyone argue that he didn’t take enough free throws to actually know if he was a good ft shooter or not? no. you can tell just by watching him shoot. lin took 72 shots last season, and he looked like a deer in headlights for a good amount of them.
Again, his 72 shot attempts in less than 300 minutes, which we’ve already established is not much of a sample size to firmly establish anything. Avery Johnson, an undrafted point guard like Lin, shot 35% in ~300 minutes his rookie year and went on to shoot 48% for his career. And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I’m not comparing Johnson to Lin. I’m saying that there’s really not enough data to argue one way or the other conclusively.
Your Biedrens analogy is disingenuous. There’s more than enough evidence from prior seasons to show that he’s a poor free throw shooter. If, instead, he was a rookie who shot 70+% in college and then shot 4/25 in his first year in the NBA, then yeah, that would be analogous. Keep working on your argument skills.
Lastly, I’ve provided more than enough solid evidence to make my case, but we are still taking your word that Lin airballed 2 uncontested 3s. I would really like to see some proof, thanks.
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 16, 2011 6:49 PM PDT up reply actions
avery johnson was not a good shooter his rookie year
he improved significantly. he also didn’t have major hitches in his shooting technique like lin does.
Lastly, I’ve provided more than enough solid evidence to make my case, but we are still taking your word that Lin airballed 2 uncontested 3s. I would really like to see some proof, thanks.
i fail to see any evidence in any of your posts arguing anything. all you have done is cherry pick videos of below average shooters airballing shots, sometimes contested, sometimes not. that has absolutely no real meaning.
you don’t seem to understand that i’m not arguing that lin will always be a terrible shooter, merely the fact that he was a terrible shooter last year. and very rarely do terrible shooters improve to anything more than an average shooter.
Dude, they’re called counter-examples. You made an assertion: “decent to good shooters don’t airball open 3s.” The counter-examples served as evidence to prove that assertion to be false. Follow me? I’m sure there are countless other examples not on YouTube that I can refer to.
I also provided evidence that Lin has shown a history of decent shooting in college and in the D-League. Whereas your evidence consists of 5 3-pointers and probably around 15 jumpshots from over 15 feet. Man, you’ve really convinced me.
I also provided evidence that 2 of Lin’s missed threes were forced shots at the end of the shotclock. You claimed that they were wide open, uncontested shots. I’m still waiting for the proof, thanks.
by Lightning Bolt on Jul 16, 2011 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Dude, they’re called counter-examples. You made an assertion: "decent to good shooters don’t airball open 3s." The counter-examples served as evidence to prove that assertion to be false. Follow me? I’m sure there are countless other examples not on YouTube that I can refer to.
none of your counterexamples show a player airballing more than 1 open 3.
I also provided evidence that Lin has shown a history of decent shooting in college and in the D-League.
thats great but if it doesn’t translate to the nba then how does it help? the pressure of an nba game is nowhere near the pressure of a d-league or college game, and lin at this point simply can’t handle it.
and you know as well as anyone that without actual game film, you will never find videos of the shots that lin missed. that doesn’t mean that they didn’t happen. and once again, shots at the end of the shot clock do not imply forced shots.
personally i'm done with this argument
you are looking for proof of something that can’t be proven with the resources we currently have. it would be like me asking you to show me videos of the 2 threes at the end of the shot clock that lin was “forced” to take when he wasn’t wide open. it’s just not going to happen.
Trade Value
Agree that Lin’s contract is cheap and if he simply duplicates last year’s effort, it will be adequate. However, the Warriors roster simply isn’t good enough to afford a spot for one such as Lin. He will develop into a decent backup eventually and can immediately be used as a situational player especially when some defense is needed. Since the W’s never feel the need to play defense, his presence is superfluous. Although I think there’s improvement, the team will be most often playing from behind and wanting to put scorers in to try to catch up, rather than putting in defenders to maintain a lead.
I do feel there’s some value to this player in terms of a trade. There are other teams that can use him. The one I advocate is CBell and Lin for Steve Blake. No one doubts Lin’s intelligence. He can see what the implications of the Jenkins draft choice. Seeing no prospects here means he can opt to become a free agent at the end of the season, if there is one, and sign with a team that can better utilize him. Why not get some value now, especially in light of the lockout situation?
It would be an interesting matchup though if Lin goes to another team and ends up playing against Jenkins.
However, the Warriors roster simply isn’t good enough to afford a spot for one such as Lin.
I think you have it backwards.
Our roster isn’t good enough that we have a player who would clearly displace him.
I don’t see how keeping him on the roster hurts us in any way. If it comes down to him or another player, and the other guy beats him out, then fine. And that might happen this year, with a guard-heavy roster.
But if you’re just shuffling him around for another player who doesn’t deserve time, I have to ask … why?
The Reasons Why
In my scenario, the “other” player is Laker Steve Blake, who would likely deserve time on the present roster. I don’t have any objection to Lin remaining on the roster. I just don’t believe he will resign with the Warriors. If one prefers the other scenario, watching Lin, Jenkins, and Bell on the 12 man roster, so be it.
I'm not sure Blake is better than Lin.
Black was pretty terrible this year.
Charlie Bell? I’d just cut him. I’d rather have Lin on the roster for basketball reasons.
Not trying to argue, just point out that
if you cut Charlie Bell, it costs over 4 million. I too would rather have Lin on the Warriors. In fact I believe that’s going to be the case. My prediction is that Jenkins will end up on the D League team while Lin stays. The problem for the W’s will be if Lin has a decent year, he will be free to negotiate with any team he wants.
if you cut Charlie Bell, it costs over 4 million.
Actually, it doesn’t.
The team is paying that $4m regardless.
If it comes down to cutting Bell or cutting Lin, the difference is whatever Lin’s (currently non-guaranteed) salary is, around $800k.
So you either get Bell for $4m or Lin for $4.8m.
I’d rather have Lin.
Since Blake also costs $4m, that trade wouldn’t save us any money.
Bell’s salary is as good as spent. That’s no reason to keep him on the roster if you have a better player available – it’s a classic “sunk costs” analysis.
Which reminds me: who the hell ever thought Charlie Bell was worth $4m?
But if you’re just shuffling him around for another player who doesn’t deserve time, I have to ask … why?
NBA experience is a good reason. A backup is less likely to do harm if he’s played a few years. Starters need potential while backups just need to fill in the minutes with the least amount of drama possible.
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 30, 2011 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I wasnt aware that JLin was getting a lot of flack?
I thought most of the flack was going towards the over-reaction he was getting from his supporters. It’s hard to hate a 12th man who may of been our 2nd-3rd best defender, and 2nd-3rd best money maker. I’m looking forward to seeing him progress, even though it looks less and less likely it’ll be with us.
by WestCoastWarrior on Jun 30, 2011 8:45 AM PDT reply actions
Great story...
Glad he’s in the league, but time to go.
Pretty good FanPost, I must say.
What can anyone realistically expect from an undrafted rookie on a minimum contract? Jeremy Lin got a disproportionate amount of media attention, which raised expectations too high.
He wasn’t on a minimum contract, he was on a partially guaranteed contract, which temporarily took a roster spot away from Jeff Adrien, if I recall (someone correct me if I’m wrong). Joe Lacob’s insistence to put him on the team and the disproportionate contract he got — relative to his role on the team — equally raised expectations.
That being said, I still think he contributed positively to the team when given the chance; he just wasn’t given many chances because of his inexperience as a pro and, IMO, Keith Smart’s affection for Acie Law.
Does this mean he should be given a chance now, with a year under his belt? Not if Charles Jenkins has anything to say about it. I’ll be rooting for Jeremy, but like others have said, perhaps the honeymoon and delusion of him being our 3rd guard is coming to an end.
@DoctorKajita
Yeah good for Jeremy and all
But I don’t want him near my team. Hate to sound like a hater, but if jeremy lin is on an nba team, that team really needs to make some changes.
it's not like the warriors were the only team that wanted jeremy lin
the lakers and dallas wanted him as well.
Oh, he was so in demand
That’s why he went undrafted right? If the Lakers want him still, lets trade him for Derrick Character.
Anthony Morrow, CJ Watson, Reggie Williams were undrafted...
You wouldn’t happen to want them if they were available, either?
was that suppoed to be funny?
the lakers and mavericks both offered him a contract. he chose to sign with the warriors.
ben wallace was undrafted
so were calderon, raja bell, bruce bowen, brad miller, udonis haslem.
does that mean nobody wanted them either?
you wanna compare lin to ben wallace?
Ok let’s do that.
Ben Wallace- NBA champion
4 x defensive player of the year
4 x all star
5 x defense 1st team
3 × 2nd team
2 × 3rd team
Jeremy Lin – who? That kid that got sent to the d league? Not FROM the d league like reggie, like cj watson , Anthony toliver, got sent TO the d league you know like kwame brown.
by Xtremelink on Jul 1, 2011 3:14 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
This argument makes no sense
He wasn’t comparing the two players, he was just noting that they were both undrafted, along with many players.
Stacking up a player who’s been in the league for many years against a player who has spent one year in the NBA is baseless.
A player’s ascension from the D-League has nothing to do with Jeremy Lin being sent down to the D-League. All the players you named there were called up out of need.
@DoctorKajita
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 1, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
What about Kwame Brown?
He was a #1 pick and a bust.
@DoctorKajita
by Doctor Kajita on Jul 1, 2011 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions
He's Kwame Brown's competition
D League
For Reggie, and Watson it stood for Developmental League
For Lin and Kwame it stands for Demoted League
Kwame was never in the D League
he was just a player that was drafted way too high back in 2001 due to the NBA’s overall infatuation over high school prospects when guys like Kobe, T-Mac, and KG were perfoming at a high level soon after senior prom. I agree he’s a bust for his stock, but at least the guy carved himself a role as a rotation big man.
i was merely noting that YOU said
Oh, he was so in demand
That’s why he went undrafted right?
and you bring up ben wallace
As if going undrafted is a good thing. Make a list of guys who were undrafted, got a few seasons in the league and before you know it people were saying “what happened to that guy?” Kwame brown was sent to the d league like Lin. If you get demoted at your job, more than one person doesn’t think you’re very good.
by Xtremelink on Jul 2, 2011 1:24 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
i never said going undrafted is a good thing
i was merely pointing out that you implied going undrafted means that nobody wants you on their team. i gave counterexamples of successful players that went undrafted.
you made a false statement
i was pointing out examples that went against your statement. you say that going undrafted means no one wants you. i point out that there are undrafted players that did very well in the league. why does that statement imply to you that i think going undrafted is a good thing? that’s an awful interpretation of my statement.
going undrafted means exactly no one wants you on their team
Now if you get a shot at making a team after the draft, that’s great. But Lin is just not that good. He lacks rhythm, and he’s not a great athlete. Do you honestly think that Jeremy Lin would be a legitimate back up pg in the league? Honestly. Do you see him beating out barea or roddy for that spot on the mavs? I mean seriously. I had a bad interpretation of one sentence that’s cool, but my overall point is that if Lin is your back up pg you need an upgrade. I’m not even going into why people call him a gimmick.
by Xtremelink on Jul 2, 2011 3:31 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
i meant a back up for a contender. obviously the warriors suck so using the warriors as a gauge.
They’re a lottery team for a reason
by Xtremelink on Jul 2, 2011 3:33 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
And being a back up on a lottery team is completely different than being a back up on a contender. I thought lacobs goal was to build a contender. I want the warriors to be a contender. Jeremy Lin, acie law, Charlie bell do not deserve to be on contending teams. Especially a back up at possibly the most important position on the court.
by Xtremelink on Jul 2, 2011 5:56 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
going undrafted means exactly no one wants you on their team
you realize there are teams that don’t have 2nd round picks right?
Going undrafted means they passed on you twice.
by Xtremelink on Jul 2, 2011 5:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Do you see him beating out barea or roddy for that spot on the mavs?
I dunno. I’m not remotely convinced that Barea is any good. He’s a flashy player (so we overrate him) and he’s on a good team (so we assume that he must be good). But he’s low efficiency and shoots a lot. Most years he’s a defensive minus.
I have no idea how good Lin will end up being, but I don’t see any reason to think that he can’t be better than Barea.
but Barea's specific role was good, which was to penetrate and kick, or draw fouls etc.
KOBE BRYANT IS DA GREA-TEST PLAYER IN DA HIS-TORY OF DA NBA- Warriors Head Coach Mark Jackson
Hand Down Man Down
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 4, 2011 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Who's to say Lin can't be good at a specific role
which is to defend, disrupt passing lanes and run the break?
Yeah, but he's nothing special at that role.
Lin could be better at the much less flashy role he seems capable of.
I have no idea how good Lin will end up being, but I don’t see any reason to think that he can’t be better than Barea.
I only watched a few minutes of barea in the playoffs but IIRC he has much better ball handling skills than Lin?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 7, 2011 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions
jeremy lin is not as good as ANY of those guys
by Xtremelink on Jul 1, 2011 1:22 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
my comment was towards bigkino
he said that lakers and mavs wanted lin, however he did not state that lakers and mavs offered lin more money than what the warriors did. but lin still picked GSW, we should appreciate the fact that he chose us over money.
please read comment on top by DOCTOR KAJ!! i dont feel that your comparison is valid. Not many can be instantly effective like lebron in the nba and to not understand that no one becomes a michael jordan over night is quite ignorant.
Jeremy Lin Deserves a Better Team
With the recent NBA draft it looks like the Warriors aren’t giving Lin the backup PG job outright. Lin should sign elsewhere with a smarter team that will actually play or at least value him. We know Dallas, LA, Boston, and others (likely Houston) were interested in him before, teams known for success and statistical analysis. By staying in GS, people will keep calling Lin a gimmick or just a marketing ploy, and completely discount the REAL basketball skills he has. He needs to leave to show everyone he’s a legit NBA player who could probably start right now and play
Lin didn’t qualify for the minimum 500 minutes (the coach’s fault not his fault), but his PER of 14.9 puts him at average for a league NBA STARTER. If you look at advanced stats, he had the 2nd best plus/minus and adjusted plus/minus on the entire team. It’s already clear he’s an above average defensive player, and offensively his showed an effective pick and roll with David Lee in the limited minutes they played together. His offensive adjusted plus/minus still shows the team is better even offensively when he is on the floor rather than on the bench.
Check out what this analyst had to say, this guy previously correctly identified Landry Fields and Wesley Matthews before anyone else
http://hoopsanalyst.com/blog/?m=201005&paged=2
I don’t like the “he’s cheap and cost effective” argument. Jeremy Lin has shown he is a NBA legit player, there is no need to discount him like cheap Chinese food. Incidentally, pricing Chinese food so low creates the bias/perception that the food quality is low, even when it’s not.
Different Web Link
That analysts page is actually at
http://hoopsanalyst.com/blog/?p=487#more-487
Here is more data about how completely undervalued Lin was last year; arguably the team’s 6th best player.
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2011/4/5/2093122/nba-analytics-reveal-coaching-negligence
When he finally got some playing time here is how he did his last 4 games:
Apr13 Portland. 23 mins, 12 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals. 5 for 8 shooting.
Apr11 Denver: 21 mins, 4 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal.
Apr10 Kings: 14 mins, 4 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals.
Lin finished the season with a PER of 14.9, 6th best on the team, better than almost half the players in the NBA.
He finished with the 2nd highest adjusted plus/minus on the entire roster.
He had the highest per-48 minute steals and blocks of all NBA guards.
If you’re not going to play him, send him to a team that will actually value and use him like Dallas, LA, Houston, or Boston (not coincidentally teams that also enjoy a lot of success and actually use statistical analysis in making decisions)
i wouldn't say lin deserves a better team
he chose to play for the warriors over some contenders, because it is close to home. i’m sure he loves it.
Different Web link
That analysts page is actually at
http://hoopsanalyst.com/blog/?p=487#more-487
Here is more data about how completely undervalued Lin was last year; arguably the team’s 6th best player.
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2011/4/5/2093122/nba-analytics-reveal-coaching-negligence
When he finally got some playing time here is how he did his last 4 games:
Apr13 Portland. 23 mins, 12 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals. 5 for 8 shooting.
Apr11 Denver: 21 mins, 4 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal.
Apr10 Kings: 14 mins, 4 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals.
Lin finished the season with a PER of 14.9, 6th best on the team, better than almost half the players in the NBA.
He finished with the 2nd highest adjusted plus/minus on the entire roster.
He had the highest per-48 minute steals and blocks of all NBA guards.
If you’re not going to play him, send him to a team that will actually value and use him like Dallas, LA, Houston, or Boston (not coincidentally teams that also enjoy a lot of success and actually use statistical analysis in making decisions)
Some Things to Consider
It is welcomed relief to be able to discuss this matter on this site. Other forums have people who obviously just don’t want an Asian player on the Warriors. The die is cast, Charles Jenkins is the choice. That’s why I agree it is time to move Lin so that some value can be received for him. Otherwise he’s liable to become a lesser version of Gilbert Arenas. I can’t see a scenario where Lin would stay with the Warriors after next year.
Here’s some thoughts to consider:
1) Jenkins is not 6’3" he is 6’1 1/2" w/o shoes, wing span 6’ 7.5" standing reach 8’ .5"
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Charles-Jenkins-6189/
Jeremy Lin by comparison is listed at 6’3" w/o shoes, wing span 6’5", standing reach 8’2"
Basically, by drafting Jenkins, they are opting to get smaller. They’ll also most likely pay him more.
2) Charles Jenkins, Hofstra: He improved a lot as a senior, specifically he seemed to become a smarter player. He took fewer shots, but made more of them and scored more points. He improved his assists while eliminating a lot of turnovers, which is no easy feat. The numbers for his senior year look strong, but two things give me pause. The first is he didn’t step his game up enough until his senior season. That just isn’t a good sign. The best prospects generally perform like prospects, at the very least on a per minute basis, well before their senior season. The other is he played at a small college and it has always been better for small college players to be much more dominant than Jenkins has been. Typically small college guards who make it have an RSB40 that’s pushing 10, a high number of assists and/or a high 2-point percentage. Jenkins has the high 2-point pct, but that only came his senior year. He isn’t a dominant defender and the jury remains way out on whether he can handle the point in the NBA. I like that he not only improved his game, but also improved it in what would have to be called an intelligent way. He became both a more efficient scorer and a better PG without losing any offense. That’s more impressive to me than if he had simply piled on more stats. Impressive as his improvement was, it still seems like a case of too little, too late for Charles Jenkins to be considered anything more than a long shot.
. Otherwise he’s liable to become a lesser version of Gilbert Arenas.
Haha, what’s HE packin?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Jun 30, 2011 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
1) Jenkins is not 6’3" he is 6’1 1/2" w/o shoes
almost every other player in the nba is more than an inch shorter than their listed height if you take their height w/o shoes. whats your point?
Jenkins is shorter, but he has more length than Lin.
Length is more important than height. You don’t guard a player standing straight up. You do it with your arms and Jenkins has Lin on 2+ inches.
Check out Goallineblitz - Free Football MMORPG
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Lin has a 1.5" edge in standing reach
it’s not clear to me which is more important
_______________________________________________________________
The City: A Golden State Warriors-Centric NBA Blog
"Also, Evanz’ posts are easiest to hide while working. The chats and graphs can look like actual work related data to the lazy walker-by’s eye" (tafkasam)
"When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of science." (Lord Kelvin)
If anything, Lin could be the third PG off the bench. We might as well keep him just in case Curry’s ankle will still bother him (not likely since he’s getting a huge amount of rest). For the first couple of months, Lin could get more playing time than Jenkins while he adjusts to the NBA. I’d rather have that.
by Prince.Charming on Jun 30, 2011 11:20 AM PDT reply actions
Lin should be the backup PG if the roster stays the same.
He’s a good defender. We need some of those.
KOBE BRYANT IS DA GREA-TEST PLAYER IN DA HIS-TORY OF DA NBA- Warriors Head Coach Mark Jackson
Hand Down Man Down
by GovernorStephCurry on Jun 30, 2011 12:28 PM PDT reply actions
Agreed, he's a very good defender, and he's super scrappy
which isn’t something we have a lot of on this roster. He also rebounds quite well for a guard, and I like his toughness. As I see it we need some depth on this roster and there is no reason that Lin should not be the backup at PG on this team with Jenkins a close third.
What exactly is the harm in keeping a good defensive pg that can take it to the hole and rebounds well with a super low contract?
We should look at buying out Charlie Bell’s contract as that guy is complete sh*t and can’t even play basketball well, and when he actually plays he starts jacking up shots. I much rather have Jeremy.
It's all about the killer cross-over baby!
Well, it’d be a good idea to keep Bell around as an expiring. Depending on how the new CBA turns out, he could the icing on the cake in an ideal trade.
by Prince.Charming on Jun 30, 2011 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Lin Completely Undervalued
http://hoopsanalyst.com/blog/?p=487#more-487
Based on college production, Jeremy Lin’s most comparable comps are:
Andre Miller
Penny Hardaway
Steve Francis
Gary Payton
Allen Iverson
Jason Kidd
Rajon Rondo
Greg Grant
Bobby Dixon
George Hill
Yes Lin played in a small school. But the analyst notes that Lin made his mark "when he averaged 23.3 PPG while shooting 63% in a 3-game stretch against UConn, BC and Georgetown. Typically players from small colleges see their numbers dip, sometimes drastically, when stepping up in competition. That Lin was able to not only be competitive, but excel in these situations is impressive."
Based on other NBA players from small schools, Jeremy Lin’s most comparable comps are:
Terry Porter
Dee Brown
Lindsey Hunter
Speedy Claxton
Antonio Daniels
Derek Fisher
Anthony Johnson
Jose Barea
Eric Maynor
George Hill
Seriously, Lin should just sign with another team and prove that GS is still inept in the front office. GS has let so many talented players go over the past few years, Lin doing well somewhere else would just be more of the same for GS.
who said lin is going anywhere? until it comes from a credible source i wouldnt believe it.
more importantly the lacobs like lin alot and the income they receive from him just being on the team outweighs the cost of his salary. so i dont see him going anywhere as far as the coming year goes. with the recent eradication of acie law and keith smart, i wouldnt be surprised to see lin become the primary backup point towards the beginning of the season. however, for him to keep that position, he would need to perform well or atleast better than jenkins.
All stat crunching aside, Lin should get a chance to prove himself this season.
His biggest strength is his defense. Mark Jackson’s said over and over that every player will have to earn their playing time, defense included. And let’s not forget Michael Malone’s forte.
Just saying we don’t have Smart anymore. The best players will get minutes (sorry Acie), and Lin’s defense should help his argument.
Side note: Lots of talk about Steph being coached by an ex-point guard… wonder what that does for Lin’s game.
the fact that people are arguing about Jeremy Lin vs. Charles Jenkins
who are both likely to play 10 or fewer minutes per game on a fairly bad team at some point when the lockout actually ends…well…seems like there are bigger issues facing this team.
_______________________________________________________________
The City: A Golden State Warriors-Centric NBA Blog
"Also, Evanz’ posts are easiest to hide while working. The chats and graphs can look like actual work related data to the lazy walker-by’s eye" (tafkasam)
"When you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meager and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of science." (Lord Kelvin)
We have a lot of time to talk about the finer details of our team ;].
by Prince.Charming on Jul 1, 2011 12:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Smart getting blamed for Lin not playing 500 minutes
That’s funny. How about the fact the kid looked completely lost on the court before being sent to the D league.
Is that you, Keith?
Is that you, Keith Smart? Sorry but Acie Law is TERRIBLE and your irrational hate for Jeremy Lin can’t cover for the fact that even counting in his first few months of stats while adjusting to the NBA, that Lin still ended up performing better than half the players on the team based on both standard and advanced performance metrics. Look at his last 2 months of the season – he completely filled up the stat sheet in an efficient way that helped his team despite limited minutes.
RE
If you mean Jeremy Lin got less minutes because he’s Asian and he’s battled glass ceilings in sports his entire life, I agree.
We all know Keith Smart wasn’t the smartest tool in the shed given how he completely mismanaged Stephen Curry and Reggie Williams, and overplayed his irrational favorites like Monta and Acie Law, not to mention did not use David Lee in pick’n roll even though it’s his best skill.
The fact that Acie Law played so much is more a testament to how bad and irrational Keith Law was toward “his guys”, than anything about Jeremy Lin.
Because of his skin color?
Sounds pretty ignorant.
by Xtremelink on Jul 1, 2011 3:28 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I think he means he didn't get any because of it.
KOBE BRYANT IS DA GREA-TEST PLAYER IN DA HIS-TORY OF DA NBA- Warriors Head Coach Mark Jackson
Hand Down Man Down
by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 1, 2011 3:54 AM PDT up reply actions
i feel that lins skin color had more to do with his amount of play time than anything else.
Haha, Depends how you look at it, I guess those coulda been diversity minutes?
Nellie might have given him zero ?
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 1, 2011 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions
did I call acie law the mvp? did I say smart was a coachkng genius?
No
by Xtremelink on Jul 1, 2011 1:25 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
nobody said acie was an mvp(where did you get that from?)
but i did ask you to explain the huge amount of play time acie law got over lin, but you seemed to ignore it.
limited minutes.
Limited, that’s the key word. Stats don’t mean anything without minutes, otherwise if a guy hit three shots in his first 2 minutes they’d just pull him out and use his rate to score the whole game. The problem I see with Lin is he’s not quite good enough to play at less than 100% all the time so he doesn’t have the margin of error that other players have. He might make a decent backup but there’s lots of more experienced backups around who can fill the role with less drama and there’s other more explosive young players with better upside if we want to go with risk .
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 1, 2011 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Lin played 300 minutes
Jeremy Lin played 300 minutes, not 2 minutes. Sure it’s not 500 minutes to qualify for all-league stats pages, but it’s significant. His last 11 games he shot 52% from the field. In the D-league his FG% and true FG% were extremely high and extremely efficient.
No, actually, it isn’t significant. 500 probably isn’t even significant.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 7, 2011 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
Bottom line is it isn’t 2 minutes like the example given. Yes 300 minutes isn’t enough, but all his rate numbers and stat numbers looked very good in limited time, so why not play him more and find out for real what you actually have in this player? Lin shot 52% from the field for the season after mid-February, and his asst/turnover and steal/turnover numbers are good, not to mention rebounding rates.
His rate numbers looked okay, but that doesn’t change anything. His entire season isn’t enough, let alone your post all-star break sample of 100 something minutes. His numbers are okay, but they’re probably be meaningless. His steals numbers are for sure too good to be true and his TS%/eFG% are both too atrocious to be true, hopefully. The fact is that his TS%, though really bad, is in the realm of possibility, where his steal rate isn’t. This isn’t like looking at Stephen Curry from January on from his rookie season. This is cherry picking his stats to make your guy look better. It is not motivated by a desire to learn Lin’s true talent level, but a desire to make him look really good. There is no statistical argument for or against him because he hasn’t played enough minutes.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 8, 2011 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Bottom line is it isn’t 2 minutes like the example given.
The example was to show why minutes matter . The way to magnify the effect of something is expand it toward the limits in both directions then see what results.
2 minutes per game would have a very poor chance of being correct and 48 plus minutes would be almost exactly correct( depending on how many overtime games the player played in) so that’s why Wilt Chamberlain’s stats mean a lot more than Jeremy Lin’s stats.
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by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 8, 2011 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions
another explanation to consider
…what if Musselman is simply a better coach than Smart ?
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
what if Musselman is simply a better coach than Smart ?
and both of them worse than Nellie but better than MarkJackson?
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 8, 2011 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah you're right, but in that sense lin's skin color also created a boundary(i believe) where
he couldn’t have been one of keith’s favorites. clearly lin played better than law with his limited amount of play time. theoritically if lin was black he would have had a higher chance of becoming one of keiths favorites and therefore would have resulted in more minutes(play time).
Plenty of perspectives involved.
Lin isn’t good, but he isn’t horrible. He is probably the 350th best player in the league.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions
please support your argument with a form of evidence.
digressing from the topic a little, do you think he would rank higher on your best players list if he had more play time to prove himself?
Probably
but he might also rank lower. For example, if his steals fell and his TS% remained just as low, he’d basically be as bad as Derek Fisher.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
That's silly
Derek Fisher is one of the worst players on both sides of the court in the league.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Good point.
Based on video from the 4/02 game vs. Dallas, If Lin guards JJ Barea and Jason Terry instead of Fisher or Blake, Dallas most likely doesn’t beat the Lakers in the conference finals. Admittedly a small sample, but better than those who offer no evidence at all.
but he might also rank lower. For example, if his steals fell and his TS% remained just as low, he’d basically be as bad as Derek Fisher.
so at this point in time, you think lin is better than fisher and blake? theoretically fisher >blake because fisher starts over blake and lin>fisher because you said that if lin’s stats fell he’ll be as bad as fisher, but he hasn’t yet. so lin>fisher>blake? i would take that as a pretty good compliment , seeing as we have a backup who is better than a starter, and is way cheaper than the starter.
I think Bllake provides offense and is therefore a more useful player than Fisher and probably Lin as well. I really really don’t like Derek Fisher as a player. If I try to think of the worst player in the league, he usually comes to mind.
Lin is probably somewhere between the worst player in the league and Steve Blake. Of course, I also think that Lin’s stats aren’t very meaningful at this point in time. His TS% is almost unsustainably low and his steal rate is unsustainably high. His passing is pretty typical, so he can probably keep that up, but we can’t say for sure either way. The sample is just too small.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 2, 2011 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually
Actually, based on PER, Lin’s 14.9 puts him at better than almost half the players in the league, and should be getting 6th man type minutes. Based on total or adjusted plus/minus (which takes into account the talent on the court), Lin had the 2nd best adjusted plus/minus on the roster.
At worst, he’s about the 160th best player in the NBA, but as we all know he’s going up against subjective biases which prevent him from getting the minutes he should be getting, even though he fills up the stat sheet whenever he actually gets to play.
Again
For the last time, PER is not a good player evaluation tool.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Whether it’s PER, plus/minus, or adjusted plus/minus, or per-36min and per-48 minute ratings, Jeremy Lin performs well across most of these measures. His shooting was poor but his true FG% in the D-league and in college were extremely efficient.
Please, don’t even try to accuse me of picking and choosing stats, when you have provided ZERO stats to back up any of your subjective, biased assertions that Jeremy Lin isn’t NBA legit.
subjective, biased assertions that Jeremy Lin isn’t NBA legit.
I didn’t say that Lin isn’t an NBA player. I said he isn’t anything special.
He’s a better passer than I gave him credit for, and he turns the ball over less than I gave him credit for. In his limited minutes against poor competition, he’s been an NBA caliber passer. His steals numbers are too good to be true. Those will come down.
Likewise, his TS% will likely improve. He’s young. Young players improve their TS%. However, his TS% is very very bad right now and his TS% in college doesn’t change that. Lin’s problem is that he doesn’t have an NBA jumper, but also lacks the tools to get to the rim effectively and at a high rate.
Also- you linked me to unadjusted +/-. APM numbers don’t exist for Lin because he didn’t play enough minutes. I was right to disregard his +/-.
As far as all-in-one metrics go, WS48 isn’t that high on Lin. It was decent for a rookie, but still below league average.
How good do you see Lin becoming? I see him being a 4th guard/2nd string PG type. Considering his age and what little he has done in the pros, I think that is realistic.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I see him being a 4th guard/2nd string PG type
Why is this a problem? Nobody is asking him to take over Stephen Curry as the starting PG. All he’d probably be asked to do would be to compete with Jenkins for the backup spot.
Besides, who would you rather have as a backup PG? Steve Blake is being paid 4M per year, Raymond Felton millions more. Considering the responsibilities and roles of the backup PG, I’d rather be paying Lin (and Jenkins) their worth in contracts, and let that money go to a more pressing need. Starting center, anyone?
It isn't a problem
I’m just trying to be realistic. Like most undrafted players, Lin isn’t that good right now and he doesn’t have great upside. The guy I’ve been talking to wants to compare him to guys we’ve let go that eventually became all stars, like Webber, Jamison and Arenas, or quality players who we traded away for what ended up being nothing like Jason Richardson.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
ReverendRandy continues with NO stats to back him up
From mid-February onward, Lin shot 52% for the rest of the season, and kept up extremely high efficiency rates for rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
Lin’s FG% and true FG% were also extremely high while he was in the D-league, so there’s definitely promise that Lin can be an effective and efficient offensive scorer moving forward. You take out his first two months where he made big adjustments, and his numbers look excellent compared to all rookies.
BayMind continues to cherry pick stats from an already meaningless sample.
Basically, there is no need to use stats because the stats don’t mean anything. If you knew anything about stats you would know that.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 7, 2011 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s a better passer than I gave him credit for, and he turns the ball over less than I gave him credit for. In his limited minutes against poor competition, he’s been an NBA caliber passer. His steals numbers are too good to be true. Those will come down
using assumptions in an argument just doesnt convince me, nor does it solidify your claim.
I’m a little confused what you’re trying to say. You quoted a long string of text. Are you talking about the steals part?
Tony Allen led all high minute players in steals per 40 minutes with 3.4. Chris Paul was the next high minute player with 2.6 per 40. Lin got 4.6 per 40. That’s insane. Unless Lin is the greatest stealer in NBA history, then it’s safe to assume that his numbers will come down. It might not come down by that much, but it’s uncommon for a player (who actually plays) to average more than 3/40. In fact, it’s only happened once in the last 5 years.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 2, 2011 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions
apology on the cite, but if you used some commas in your text it would benefit us both alot.
all i wanted to assert was that using assumptions doesnt convince me, nor make your claims more believable . even though assumptions can become truths, its not certain. okay now lets assume that i told you that lin would get more than 4.6 steals per 40 from my assumptions. Would my assumptions convince you anymore than how your assumptions would convince me? when you said “Those will come down” it tells me that you either feel like he’s not able to continue to produce the same stats with more play time or that you are a psychic. If you are a psychic please offer me some help, i have a problem with my pet dinosaur.
I was offering a perspective that you could look into for yourself. The difference between my assumption and the opposite assumption is taht mine is based on reality. Taking issue with my assumption actually shows a lack of knowledge in that area on your part.
Still, I was happy to explain it. I think I did a pretty good job of it, too. In most seasons, the best “stealer” in the league gets about 2.8 steals per 40. That’s Chris Paul and Rajon Rondo. Lin might be better at racking up steals than those guys, and he might do it simply because of the Warriors pace, but it’s unlikely.
It isn’t about being psychic. It is about using your brain to make an educated guess. We’re trying to predict the future of a dude that played less than 300 minutes as a rookie.
apology on the cite, but if you used some commas in your text it would benefit us both alot.
I used 2 commas and 4 periods in the part that you quoted. That is the right amount of punctuation. You only really needed to quote the last 2 sentences, by the way.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 2, 2011 9:08 PM PDT up reply actions
well assumptions/ educated guessing doesn't mean reality, therefore i was trying to say that it proves nothing to me.
“His steals numbers are too good to be true. Those will come down..”
you should have said His steals numbers are too good to be true, however those should come down.
Yes, you're right.
In principle, assumptions=/=reality.
However, you’d have to be an idiot to deny that Lin’s steals numbers will come down, especially after I explained it.
I mean, what was the point of this comment? Stop being a baby about it and admit that you were mistaken.
You could have also done a little bit of research about basketball stats. Lin isn’t going to be the most exceptional stealer of all time. He isn’t going to be better at it than MJ or John Stockton or GP or JKidd… he just isn’t.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Please take the fake crown off of your head!..
Please don’t call me an idiot,baby etc , i never intended to insult you(i don’t think i have) or ever expected you to insult me.
“admit that you were mistaken.” what mistake am i admitting for?
- You could have also done a little bit of research about basketball stats.* You should have taken the time you did research about basketball stats to live life, so you can understand the basic concept that anything can happen in life. Before Wilt scored 100 points in a game no one ever thought it would be possible, but it was and it happened. Then what makes you think lin cant be the best thief of all time? I wouldn’t say that he can’t, until he has shown that he cant.
“*Lin might be better at racking up steals than those guys, and he might do it simply because of the Warriors pace….”*
well here you admittedly said that he can get more steals than those guys. Those guys are the best, which means you think Lin CAN be one of the best or even better than the best.
“Lin isn’t going to be the most exceptional stealer of all time. He isn’t going to be better at it than MJ or John Stockton or GP or JKidd… he just isn’t.”
Lin hasn’t played a full 40 yet so it doesnt really matter what you say here. My view on assumptions stay the same here.
“However, you’d have to be an idiot to deny that Lin’s steals numbers will come down, especially after I explained it. "
it might, it might not. you won’t know until its proven or proven otherwise. My view on assumptions stay the same here.
I never argued that Lin’s steals wouldn’t fall*(okay now lets assume that i told you that lin would get more than 4.6 steals per 40 from my assumptions. Would my assumptions convince you anymore than how your assumptions would convince me?)*
I was using a pretend assumption to try and convince you that assumptions hold no weight.
More importantly, I’m not lin’s biggest fan and he isn’t my favorite basketball player. my main concern is that you use assumptions like they are facts and that doesn’t work on most levels, with me or most people.
I’d be more interested in talking with you if you knew anything about basketball.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:03 AM PDT up reply actions
knowing stats doesn't mean you know basketball.
how does a lifelong basketball fan who doesn’t know or care for stats vs. an nba stat lover translate?
Well, I also watch a lot of basketball and grew up loving the sport.
There are few people who are actually capable of analyzing basketball at a high level without using stats. Even guys like Greg Poppovich use stats in their teams. Popp frequently cites FG% defense. Rick Carlisle had Roland Beech, one of the statsiest statheads in sports, advising him on his lineups. Erik Spoelstra built a stats database for the Heat years ago before he was a coach. These guys use stats. My point is that even the best basketball minds use stats. No offense, but no one here is even close to that discussion. To discard this useful data just because of some prejudice is silly.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions
what was the point of that? you didnt answer my question all you told me was that some people who knows basketball uses stats.
what i wanted to know was would someone who has been a lifelong basketball fan but doesnt use stats know basketball?
My answer
there are few people capable of actually analyzing basketball without using stats, but they use stats anyway because it’s useful information. I don’t think there is anyone on here who is properly capable of analyzing basketball. A basic understanding of stats is very helpful and practically indispensable for the modern NBA fan.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Also
you have no right to be offended. You’ve acted like a child. We can’t make educated guesses? You demand that I speak like a pussy? No way.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually
I shouldn’t have made this post. No matter how frustrated I am because of you, it isn’t okay to act like this. I’m sorry.
Still- my issue is that you are treating all assumptions as equal. There are levels of assumptions. You can assume that the sun will rise. You can assume that Stephen Curry will score points next season. You can assume that you’ll make it to work safely in the morning. That is an assumption you make because you would never leave the house otherwise. Lin becoming the greatest stealer in NBA history is somewhere between a man being struck by lightning 7x in one year and the sun exploding tomorrow. It could happen, but using that as your argument that he is a good player is not a good argument. Arguing the other way- that he will, at best, be in line with guys like Chris Paul and Rondo is a lot more realistic. Hell- he probably won’t even be that good. He could be, but that’s still pretty unlikely.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:18 AM PDT up reply actions
“You can assume that the sun will rise. You can assume that Stephen Curry will score points next season.”
basic logic
“You can assume that you’ll make it to work safely in the morning. That is an assumption you make because you would never leave the house otherwise.”
no humans can only hope for things like that.
“Lin becoming the greatest stealer in NBA history is somewhere between a man being struck by lightning 7x in one year and the sun exploding tomorrow. It could happen,”
exactly it could happen, but who won’t know because there arn’t complete facts.
“It could happen, but using that as your argument that he is a good player is not a good argument”
all im saying is that we won’t know anything until it happens.
my problem is that you use assumptions that are guesses, and formatting them into fake facts.
i really don’t care about you anymore i was gonna stop commenting until you started to harrass me.
who=we typo
exactly it could happen, but who won’t know because there arn’t complete facts.
So your argument is that we can’t assume that Lin will only be a below average player because there is a 0.0001 chance that he becomes the greatest stealer in NBA history?
my problem is that you use assumptions that are guesses, and formatting them into fake facts.
No, it’s a logically formed argument. There’s a difference. It would be a guess for me to say that Stephen Curry scored 22 points a game last season (he didn’t.) It would be a guess to say that he could one day score 30 (it’s very unlikely.) It’s an educated guess supported by the history of the NBA to say that Jeremy Lin’s steals per 40 will fall below 3. Can you really not see the difference?
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, you didn’t see me apologize. I’ll point you to the post right next to yours.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I understand
I kinda thought that was going to happen anyway.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 4, 2011 2:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Please take the fake crown off of your head!..
Please don’t call me an idiot,baby etc , i never intended to insult you(i don’t think i have) or ever expected you to insult me.
"admit that you were mistaken." what mistake am i admitting for?
You could have also done a little bit of research about basketball stats. You should have taken the time you did research about basketball stats to live life, so you can understand the basic concept that anything can happen in life. Before Wilt scored 100 points in a game no one ever thought it would be possible, but it was and it happened. Then what makes you think lin cant be the best thief of all time? I wouldn’t say that he can’t, until he has shownthat he cant.
"Lin might be better at racking up steals than those guys, and he might do it simply because of the Warriors pace…."
well here you admittedly said that he can get more steals than those guys. Those guys are the best, which means you think Lin CAN be one of the best or even better than the best.
"Lin isn’t going to be the most exceptional stealer of all time. He isn’t going to be better at it than MJ or John Stockton or GP or JKidd… he just isn’t."
Lin hasn’t played a full 40 yet so it doesnt really matter what you say here. My view on assumptions stay the same here.
"However, you’d have to be an idiot to deny that Lin’s steals numbers will come down, especially after I explained it. "
it might, it might not. you won’t know until its proven or proven otherwise. My view on assumptions stay the same here.
I never argued that Lin’s steals wouldn’t fall(okay now lets assume that i told you that lin would get more than 4.6 steals per 40 from my assumptions. Would my assumptions convince you anymore than how your assumptions would convince me?)
I was using a pretend assumption to try and convince you that assumptions hold no weight.
More importantly, I’m not lin’s biggest fan and he isn’t my favorite basketball player. my main concern is that you use assumptions like they are facts and that doesn’t work on most levels, with me or most people.
you should have said His steals numbers are too good to be true, however those should come down.
haha, like the sun should rise in the morning? instead of the sun will rise in the morning? Sometimes you just gotta go with the odds.
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 7, 2011 10:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Also
I’d appreciate if you’d stop saying “subjective, biased assertions” about me and Lin. You’re implying that I’m racist. It’s impossible to have an actual, civil discussion if you’re treating them like they’re a racist the whole time. I’m not a racist. I’m a TS%ist, meaning I almost never like players whose TS% is below .510.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
But way to pick and choose your advanced stats.
Where are you getting your adjusted +/- numbers from? Basketballvalue.com, my usual source, doesn’t list Lin’s adjusted +/- because he played too few minutes to qualify.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 1, 2011 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions
i watched the whole last season. whenever lin got into the floor we would cut a huge point deficit rather quickly
mind that he only plays when we are down 10+ points(garbage minutes). imagine what he could do if he had playing time when it mattered more.
imagine what he could do if he had playing time when it mattered more.
it don’t work that way. When the other team is way ahead they relax and take it easy. It’s a lot easier to look good in garbage time.
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 1, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions
only team i know that relaxes while they are ahead are the warriors. and that is why we always have close games whether it started with us leading by 10 or 20+ points.
i just don’t understand your point here, i know that teams would relax by putting in their bench. but that doesnt mean they don’t care about their lead. okay what i got from you is that Lin looks good in garbage time against bench players, because either bench players relax when they get to play(giving up a lead) or that lin is very effective against bench players(better than bench players). i can only assume that bench players are playing to try to sustain a lead otherwise the starters would be playing.
i just don’t understand your point here
The point is teams play to win and not to run up the score. It’s better to think in season terms than in one game terms.If I get ahead I’m gonna rest my best players and let the scrubs have minutes. If the other team makes a big run and the scrubs can’t hold a comfortable lead then i’ll go back to my better players. It’s a common way to manage all competitions. If lin is better than someone’s scrubs then that only means he’s better than someone’s scrubs, it don’t mean he’s better than everyone who he out stats in his limited minutes. The reason he can stat high in short time is he plays a lot more desperate than the guys with more talent and less desperation. He’s not gonna hang around if he don’t give extra effort cause he’s got no special talent or athleticism to make him a necessity.
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 2, 2011 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions
okay great you proved my point here, scrubs = bench player and jlin is better than scrubs which means he is better than bench players? am i comprehending your comment correctly?
“it don’t mean he’s better than everyone who he out stats in his limited minutes.”
i never said he is better than everyone or anyone who he has better stats than.
Please us my previous comment as a reference, i dont feel like citing that. yeah i agree, he played very limited minutes.
“The reason he can stat high in short time is he plays a lot more desperate than the guys with more talent and less desperation.”
that only tells me that he is more hard working than those talented fellows. Whats the point of having all the talent in the world if you dont use it? Why wouldn’t any other bench player be as desperate as Lin? Surely not many bench players should be as comfortable as you stated. Most bench players are expendable, therefore i feel that they would also play very desperately.
“He’s not gonna hang around if he don’t give extra effort cause he’s got no special talent or athleticism to make him a necessity.”
even if a players have special talents or athleticism doesn’t mean they are necessities.
i feel that lins skin color had more to do with his amount of play time than anything else.
This whole thread is depressing, indicative of a horrific team where the fans are arguing about the merits of a marginal player because a few people share some ethnic heritage with the player. He ain’t Yao Ming, OK? I dug Bellinelli for the same reason, but he wasn’t worth a post, nor was he going to change anything. Please get real- Lin is a nice story, that’s it. If and when the lockout ends, and I am hoping for about a sixty game season, let us all hope that Lin is the last thing we are discussing. If he realizes his potential, he makes the roster and contributes 10-15 minutes/game off the bench on the back end of the rotation.
by felix botticelli on Jul 2, 2011 4:26 AM PDT reply actions
excuse me, but how would you know that lin or anyone in general isn't going to change anything?
change is not something that is foreseeable and for you to say that someone is or isn’t going to change anything is pretty naive. Lin has already changed the nba by being the first chinese/taiwanese american to play in the league. Whether a player is marginal or not is very subjective. To you he might be a marginal player, but to many he is a very important player because he symbolizes hope and liberty for the asian americans in our society. Lin has alot of supporters and fans because they believe that Lin can change the social norm and break stereotypes of asian americans by playing basketball. I am not saying he will change anything or not( only time can tell), but to say that fans shouldn’t root for him because he won’t change anything makes no sense.
Lin has already changed the nba by being the first chinese/taiwanese american to play in the league
No, he’s changed the fan discussions and maybe to a limited extent the fan makeup but he’s not talented enough to change the NBA. Guys like Wilt, MJ, and Shaq change the NBA. Jeremey Lin is a pretty small fish in the NBA pond even compared to Dfish.
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 2, 2011 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions
By being the first chinese/taiwanese american to play in the nba, lin has changed the demographic aspect of the nba.
The change you mentioned, was a change towards the performance aspect of the nba. I never said anything about Lin affecting the nba performance wise. “Lin has alot of supporters and fans because they believe that Lin can change the social norm and break stereotypes of asian americans by playing basketball.” I think you felt that when i said “by playing basketball” you thought i meant he would become the next mj, but it was geared towards society. But what i was trying to say was that by playing ball in the nba, lin has created a window of nba opportunites for next generations asian americans. Eventually, depending on favorable conditions,if he plays more he’ll become more exposed to society, and in effect should create even more opportunites for asian americans and possibly even break a few stereotypes along the way.
Asian Americans like to play basketball, like Blacks, Whites, and non-asian Hispanics do
in American society, if White men are viewed as less athletic, then Asian Americans are viewed as much worse than that, whether they’re Chinese descent or of Indian descent (also Asians too).
But what i was trying to say was that by playing ball in the nba, lin has created a window of nba opportunities for next generations asian americans
Not really , Lin is not gonna make any of them better or taller. The problem is not opportunity it’s size and aptitude. Most asian american kids have better things to do than play basketball while many poor black kids don’t so naturally they gravitate toward different directions. As in inspiration and mentor I’m much more impressed with Lin’s academic success than his basketball success, a college degree is gonna help kids more than basketball dreams.
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 7, 2011 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions
To you he might be a marginal player, but to many he is a very important player because he symbolizes hope and liberty for the asian americans in our society.
When I said he wasn’t going to change anything, I was referring to basketball, which is what I believe this site is about. And it remains depressing that we are discussing social issues here and not basketball. That is because the team is lousy.That has nothing to do with the various important social issues one could discuss, among them racial prejudice towards Asian Americans, which I find reprehensible. That being said, in order for Jeremy Lin to have an impact socially he needs to have an impact as a basketball player and I still believe he is a marginal. If Jackie Robinson had the skill set of say, Cliff Pennington, he would not have had the impact he did.
by felix botticelli on Jul 5, 2011 7:36 AM PDT up reply actions
no one has made a reasoned argument
to support the notion that skin-tone/ethnic origin prejudice is a principal cause behind the virtual absence of asian-amerikans in the n.b.a. Does someone here seriously believe that the tiny minority in the U.S. actually has the demographic basis and internal cultural-economic dynamics to produce a significant number of candidates both tall enough and good enough to get into the league ? If those candidates existed, they’d get opportunities, as Lin did. Consider how mediocre Yi has been in the league, but many assumed he’d be a lottery pick when he entered the draft. Was it not his height, and meeting some minimum standard of hoops performance, that gained him entry, with little concern about his skin tone ? Stanford, U.C. Berkeley, U.C.L.A. all have hoops teams with alumni who get to the n.b.a, and all of those schools also have plenty of asian-amerikan grads. Are those schools prejudiced against asian-amerikan hoops players ?
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
It's a legitimate gripe
Think of the gripes people make about white NFL running backs or white NBA players getting drafted lower or getting less respect than they deserve. If you think those gripes are legit, the grips about Asian American athletes is definitely legit, probably 100X more in nature than complaining about white athlete perception vs black athletes
To you he might be a marginal player, but to many he is a very important player because he symbolizes hope and liberty for the asian americans in our society.
Are Asian-Americans lacking hope and liberty? How so?
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Lin played very well when on D League assignment
and hopefully that could get him more minutes for the Warriors next season, but Monta, Steph, Dorell, and Reggie all took up the minutes as it stands.
Do I think that Lin being Asian American hurt his playing time? I hope we’re past that, but he is the only Asian American in the NBA right now, and in quite some time (there was a Japanese American way back in the day). I think it’s more about Lin being from the Ivy League that hurt him in terms of draft stock, etc., not to mention that he was never able to get the Crimson to the Big Dance, though that was in part due to the fact that Cornell just had a monster of a team back in 2010.
Wow!
Are we this bored during the first week of the lookout that some chose to hate on Jeremy Lin for some reason?
Leaving his ethnicity aside, he opened some eyes in the summer league when teams probably passed on him because he played in the ivy league. He got very limited playing time with the Warriors and in Reno was playing very well. I caught one game and his level of play stood out against everyone else on the court.
If the Warriors are smart, they keep him for the upcoming season and see if he continues to grow. At the very least, I see him developing into a good back-up PG.
I looked into Lin's stats after mid-Feb
From mid-February on, Lin shot 52% for the rest of the season, and kept up extremely high efficiency rates for rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
Lin’s FG% and true FG% were also extremely high in the D-league, so there’s definitely promise that Lin can be an effective and efficient offensive scorer moving forward.
Wow
you actually posted this meaningless garbage 5 or 6 times. That’s incredible.
You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!
by Reverend_Randy on Jul 7, 2011 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Why Jeremy Lin Must Go - An Opinion
Jenkins will likely sign a multi-year contract that is favorable to the Warriors because of Lin’s presence. If you are Lin’s agent, what would you advise? My opinion would be to move him.
1) If it turns out Jenkins > Lin then there’s no point in keeping Lin.
2) If it turns out Lin ≥ Jenkins the Warriors have a problem because Lin will be a free agent. Even though Lin loves the W’s, business is business.
3) Even if Lin is just a marketing gimmick, then other teams will see that and sign him when he is a free agent even if it’s just to play 5-10 minutes per game. If he sits on the bench in a suit, he doesn’t sell tickets or jerseys for Golden State.
4) There’s too many players named Jeremy on the squad. What will it mean when the crowd chants “We wan Jeremy!” :)
I am one of those who would like to see an Asian American playing in the NBA but it doesn’t have to be the Warriors.
2) If it turns out Lin ≥ Jenkins the Warriors have a problem because Lin will be a free agent. Even though Lin loves the W’s, business is business.
lin grew up here. he’s comfortable here, and even if he gets to choose where he plays, he will likely choose the W’s. he could have signed with the lakers or mavs but he signed here. what makes you think he wont do it again?
3) Even if Lin is just a marketing gimmick, then other teams will see that and sign him when he is a free agent even if it’s just to play 5-10 minutes per game. If he sits on the bench in a suit, he doesn’t sell tickets or jerseys for Golden State.
the reason why lin is thought to be a marketing gimmick by some is because he grew up here and was a high school star in palo alto. the bay area has a huge asian fanbase as well. he wouldn’t sell as many tickets anywhere else.
he might sell in houston. Yao retired.
Ha, Can he play on stilts?
Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Party'N Party'N , YEAH!! Fun fun fun fun.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jul 9, 2011 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Bay... why fight with Randy
I think it is bad that there was the obnoxious applause whenever Lin touched the ball because as my Asian best friend put it “He’s not some mascot… he has NBA talent.” Which he does. When Lin started he was a plus defender, but was atrocious on offense. I have never seen a player finish worse at the NBA level.
However, he went to the D-League and despite what the limited number stats say, he is still a bad offensive player, who is still a below average passer, with no great shot. I do not mean to criticize him because his growth from being atrocious to bad is impressive. He is not going to have 4 steals/game average as a starter and arguing about it is silly.
A simple peace that pretty much everyone could agree on is that he SHOULD have played more last season. He deserves a roster spot and time this season to continue to develop.He should compete with Jenkins for the backup role and is an asset to this team.
It is ridiculous to compare him to Jason Kidd or Rajon Rondo.
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