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Looking Forward Part 1: A Philosophy

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So over the next week or so I'm going to put up a few articles on where the Warriors should be headed going forward. I'm not going to include any ridiculous assumptions or hopes and most importantly I'm not going to suggest trade after trade.

I'll try to answer questions such as:

Should they trade Steph or Monta? Is it worth trading Monta Ellis for Andre Igoudala? What to do with Biedrins? Can Udoh be our starting center if he "can't rebound"?

If you want to read another brief article where someone blurts out their opinions look elsewhere, the articles are long and detailed. You have been warned.

The first article lays out a vision for how the team could & should move forward with a framework, putting everything else that will be said later into context. However IT IS NOT SAYING THAT THE TEAM SHOULD TANK because that is not realistic. It is essentially a long introduction that explains what I will say about what should be done with some of the players in the next articles where I will analyse their value to the team in depth. 

Star-divide

Why is the team in an interesting position?

There are so many questions facing the team that need to be answered correctly to allow this team to move forward, and to get them right you need to have a framework and an idea of how this affects the future, and not just the present. 

Firstly to put everything in this article and the future ones into context let's have a look at the teams salary cap situation. I'm assuming here that whatever happens with the new CBA, they will be in proportionally the same position around the future cap, as they would have under this CBA.

Now they paid $68,040,204 in salaries this season and this will drop to $49,105,952 this summer and $36,844,000 the next summer (of 2012). 

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Some things scream out when looking at the cap.

  • The team is committing about $30m each season until 2014 to Lee, Biedrins and Monta, and Lee is on an escalating salary that rises by just over $1.1m every year and finishes 2 years after the others. 

Of those players only Monta (ability wise) lives up to his contract and might be able to get us a player back worthy of that salary (though you could argue Lee is simply overpaid) . It could also be argued that none of these players are improving the team. For example they each have a negative net points per 100 possessions (pPts) rating, with Biedrins at -8.8 , Lee at -0.4 and Monta at -6.6. This shows that the team performed better statistically when these players were off the court.

Having a negative pPts does not mean the team wins when that player is off the court, it just means that the team does that much better. However with Ellis and Biedrins off the court the Warriors outscore teams by 2.5 pPts and 0.2 pPts respectively. With Lee off the court we still lose by 2.7 pPs but this is a smaller loss than with him on the court.

To put it simply the stats suggest that over the course of the season if Keith Smart had taken Monta or Biedrins off the team, or if one was injured they could have had a winning record. Now obviously this stat is very simplistic and ultimately things don't play out how the stats suggest, however its hard to see any positives from this seeing as these guys take up earn 63% of the money ownership spends on salaries and show little statistical impact on the team's fortunes.

Therefore unless you think this roster can turn into a contender some changes are going to need to be made to truly improve the roster going forward in free agency and via trades.

  • When looking at the future cap space the team has, the most disappointing thing is that ownership will never have significant room to add quality players as Biedrins, Lee and Ellis take up such a large amount of room for such a long time

For the sake of argument I'm going to assume the salary cap remains at $58m every year to be conservative. So how much cap room does that leave the Warriors with:

2011: Around 6-7m not including Reggie Williams' qualifying offer

2012: About 19m assuming they don't resign Jeremy Lin, Reggie Williams and don't have a top 7 draft pick

2013: About 23m as Dorell's contract comes of the books.

I don't know about you but I think a core of Curry - Ellis - D Wright - Klay - Lee - Udoh isn't good enough, and right now Ellis is the only decent asset it seems the owners will consider trading that might change the fortunes of the team significantly.

So in order to make sense of the options coming Larry Riley and Bob Myers' way the team needs a plan on how to act and what ultimately they are aiming for. The main debate should center around 2 basic philosophies:

1. Try to do what they can realistically to improve the team NOW:

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- This philosophy would involve trading Monta Ellis for Andre Igoudala for example.

- Doing whatever they can with the remaining cap space in free agency

2. Maintain flexibility going forward whilst looking to the future in trades and in the draft:

- This would have involved for example trying to trade up in the draft using Monta Ellis. It would even involve keeping Monta if it was believed he could have a higher value in future.

-  It also means favouring players with higher potential over the sure, safe bets in the draft and trying to build a team for the future. Suggesting adding the safer bets is likely to lead to some extra wins in the short term, but ultimately contending for a championship requires stars, which means going for potential in the draft.

- It requires focusing on players as values in trades and as assets because ultimately they may not be a part of a roster that contends for a championship. For example Al Jefferson's value to the Celtics never came because he was a star for them, it was because he brought them a star via trade in Kevin Garnett. Jeff Green's value to the Thunder was that he ultimately allowed them to acquire the center they needed in Kendrick Perkins.

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So the owners' opinion on these two routes is going to have huge ramifications for what they do this summer and beyond. I'm guessing that people like Marc Jackson and Larry Riley are going to be more interested in option 1 as their jobs are literally on the line if the team doesn't do well right now. Whilst Joe Lacob may have an understanding of the benefits of option 2 when talking about a potential Monta Ellis trade:

-Q: And yet many trades happen that are denied and denied, right until they happen.

-LACOB: I’m not saying it couldn’t happen ...

...And there’s also the business side—do the contracts make sense? If you’re going to bring back somebody in a trade, you’ve got to make sure that they fit in the context of your whole team and the terms of the cap structure…

You’ve got to think about all those facts when all those rumors are out there. (Source)

 

Philosophy 1

The benefits of subscribing to the first philosophy are clear: more wins next season and maybe even...

                      

Right now a vast majority of fans want to take this route and trade Monta Ellis for Andre Iguodala. Currently I have no doubt that doing that trade would make the team better. If you delve deeper than the highlights and the PPG it seems pretty clear that whilst Monta has phenomenal abilities and could if used correctly be great for us, he just isn't. He has a +/- of -6.2 and takes the ball away from Curry who has a +/- of +5.4 and has the potential to take this team further forward than Ellis can. Whilst Iguodala is a perfect fit for the Warriors at the 2 or 3 with his phenomenal defence and selflessness. 

As well as a potential Ellis for Iguodala trade it would also involve using free agency to address the teams current needs using the MLE and any cap space.

However it seems these kind of moves ultimately tend to push teams in a lateral direction and damage teams going forward. How good do you really think the Warriors are with this trade? I think this trade adds something in the region of 5-7 wins to the team and maybe with some better coaching might get them in the playoffs. But at a cost of around $2.5m extra in salary next season, rising by about $1.2m each season after that. More importantly Iguodala's trade value is most likely at it's highest whereas as I will argue in a later article, Ellis could be valued much higher and could bring the Warriors back a better piece.

Sure if Golden State were in the playoffs this would be a great trade as it provides them with a better player who fits perfectly, however they're only likely to improve a little bit and the salary difference is all the more important in the future given the new CBA. 

Philosophy 2

I'd love to elegantly put forward my argument for philosophy 2 here, however I feel it has already been done for me and I really hope you give a minute of your time to reading this article.

http://basketball.realgm.com/src_feature_pieces/964/20100902/what_might_have_been/

To summarise this article lays out the argument that improving yourself slightly in the short term whilst adding long term money and losing flexibility is foolish. It uses the example of the Anthony Randolph for David Lee sign and trade deal in comparison to the fact they may have been able to trade Randolph for Kevin Love or at least stick with Randolph.

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The biggest overall discrepancy is more philosophical than anything else. It is hard to find a legitimate argument that the Warriors are any better than the eighth best team in the Western Conference right now even after their bold moves this summer. Having what would have largely amounted to an open slate plus Curry, the 2010 draft pick, and either Anthony Randolph or Kevin Love would have opened up a wide variety of possibilities for strong teams down the line in what should be a weaker West.

That trade I feel has set the Warriors back hugely for the future and was a terribly short sighted move. Now no doubt Lee was the best player in that deal, and it debatably made the team better this year. But was Lee ever going to put them over top?

In the end he's another player that has left the Warriors roster with significantly less room for growth and improvement in the future as he is a player with little trade value. Just imagine their options right now if they had Love or Randolph (playing decent minutes) on the team instead of Lee. They would have about $8m less committed in salary and a player of huge value and potential.

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To put this even further into perspective. If Love or Randolph were on the team they would have around $13m in available cap room this summer and have a legitimate shot at Nene or Marc Gasol.

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What if they didn't use that cap space?

         Paul & Howard & Williams(1)

Firstly I'd like to say I do not expect the Warriors would be able to acquire any of these players. I'm just making the point that the Warriors would have had much more options available to them had they attempted to be more financially flexible and not attempted to do short-sighted trades like the David Lee trade.

They'd have around $26m available next summer when Dwight Howard, Deron Williams and Chris Paul become available. While I don't have any confidence that the Warriors could have gotten one of those players, they would at least be in a flexible position to take advantage of any opportunities that may arise. For example in a sign and trade or in a trade at next seasons trade deadline as they would have had the cap space to absorb their contracts. 

If New Orleans is going to lose Chris Paul, Stephen Curry would be a great result for them in a trade at next seasons trade deadline considering he's a promising player on a rookie contract which would be a better result for them than losing him for nothing in the summer. Unfortunately now the Warriors aren't even in a position to offer a trade like this as we can't absorb the necessary salary without offering a player like Lee, Biedrins or Ellis which a rebuilding team trading its star would not consider.

I'm trying to make the point that if you want this to become a team that contends for a championship rather than being early playoff fodder they need to be put in a position to take advantage of opportunities like this that may come along. The teams moves last year and in the recent past haven't even improved the team, yet are continuing to hurt it's chances to contend going forward.

The principles of the second philosophy could have changed management's approach to last year's draft.

It requires focusing on players as values in trades and as assets because ultimately they may not be a part of a roster that contends for a championship

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In that draft the team reached and acquired Udoh over people like Greg Monroe and Paul George. Whilst I am a huge Udoh guy, he doesn't have the trade value of the others and not necessarily the potential to be a 'star' in the modern sense. It seems short-sited to plan for the now when the team is nowhere near competing and may have a completely different roster in the future. 

Now Udoh was amazing last season posting a +/- of +9.9 as well as helping the team out score the opposition by 5.3 points per 100 possessions when he was on the floor. Thus I think he is a brilliant player that will be very useful for the team. However ultimately players come and go and the Warriors are in a less flexible position going forward as of now because they drafted him over other 'high-potential' players such as George and Monroe that could command more in a trade.

Remember this is a league of stars and to be relevant going forward the team needs to aim to be in a position to acquire these people. That requires assets.

Just use the example of Dwight Howard. I don't think they have any realistic shot of getting him to sign in free agency but if the Magic were to realise they had to trade Howard the Warriors would have been in a position to offer a more tantalising trade than most. 

Assuming the team was going to trade Anthony Randolph for Lee or Love, they could build a package around:

1. Kevin Love, Greg Monroe or Ekpe Udoh (total salary next season around $8m) 

2. David Lee (earning $11.6m rising to $15.5m over 5 more seasons), Ekpe Udoh (total salary next season around $15m)

So the difference for the recipient in this trade is they either acquire two young players on rookie contracts with huge potential being paid around $3-4m each, or a flawed player being paid $10.8m rising to $15.5m and one of the other rookies. Hmm which would a team choose...

Barring huge luck in free agency or in the draft David Lee is not going to be a major part of the team if it becomes a contender. It's naive to think looking to acquire players like that is the way to go unless they truly put us over the top in the future. Instead the team should be looking to put themselves in a position to take advantage of some of the opportunities that may come its way in the future.

The final goal

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A basketball team’s identity is determined by its best player. If you have a dominant defensive presence in the front-court, you are going to be a good defensive team (Dwight Howard — Orlando). If you have a player who can create an easy look for himself and his teammates whenever he wants, you are going to be good offensive team (Steve Nash — Phoenix).

And if you have a player with the ability do both, you are going to be a great team (LeBron James — Miami). But if you don’t have either, then you aren’t going to be very good. (link)

For this team as constructed to succeed fans and management have to hope and believe that Curry can be that offensive player on some level and that Udoh will be that defensive player as without massive luck or a good trade next season they are unlikely to be able to acquire those types of players without rebuilding again through the draft.

I don't think Curry needs to be on the same level as Nash, as hopefully with players like Klay Thompson around that complement him overall we will be a good/excellent offensive team and with Udoh, well he's a special player as I'll get into in a later article.

Suffice to say if these guys turn into those two cornerstones via trade or develop into those players, the Warriors are likely to be stuck on The Mediocrity Treadmill unless the surrounding talent makes up for it. It is likely that the only chance to break through is via an Ellis trade as the team likely doesn't have a first round pick next year, won't draft high again and in two years will cap out when it re-signs Curry unless it manages the cap perfectly.

A good example of the differences between the two approaches

This season the Denver Nuggets and the Utah Jazz were both in a position where they knew they were going to have to trade their best player, and they both went about it in different ways.

As everyone knows, the Warriors are soon to be in a similar position in what to do with Monta Ellis. In one way their situation is very similar situation to the Jazz, with a roster consisting of a few promising youngsters on rookie contracts, and 3-4 veterans on relatively large contracts taking up around $30m, that will most likely just miss the playoffs.

I recommend giving this article a read: The Accelerated Rebuild. It explains the benefit of starting afresh with young players when your about to get rid of one of your best players, so as not to get stuck in a middle to low playoff position (in the case of the Nuggets), or in our case stuck in a position that at best gets us the 8th seed.

Unlike their contemporaries, Utah understood that sometimes you have to take two steps backward to take a step forward. Compare them with their division rival in Denver, who tried to reload instead of rebuild when dealing Carmelo Anthony. They were able to stay in the playoff picture, but now they have a roster full of young players coming up for free agency who don’t have All-NBA upsides. As a result, the Nuggets are going to be stuck in the 5-8 playoff range the next few years while the Jazz eventually rocket past them, in much the same way as the Thunder did.

                                     Kentucky Wildcat recruit, Enes Kanter, has been ruled ineligible by the NCAA. John Calipari is Kentucky’s head coach. So whaddya expect? The NCAA rule “allows prospective student-athletes to compete on teams  with professionals while maintaining their amateur status prior to  college applies; however, the bylaw states any such benefits cannot  exceed actual and necessary expenses.” (Kanter received over $33,000 more than his expenses from his Turkish basketball club, Fenerbahce.) Kanter, the 6’9”, 250 lb prospect, is ranked #6 amongst the top 100 NBA prospects according to draftexpress.com. His ineligibility will leave a void in Kentucky’s three second area, and damper their hopes of another Elite 8 appearance. Kentucky will appeal the NCAA’s decision.(1)

Rather than making a trade that improved them in the short term like the Nuggets, the Jazz looked forward and put themselves in a position to down the road have a contending team.

While the Nuggets traded Carmelo and stayed in place, the Jazz did the opposite with their disgruntled franchise player. Instead of trying to find equal value for Deron Williams, they sent him to New Jersey for a high-upside young big man in Derrick Favors.

Now Utah has two lottery picks (their own and New Jersey’s) to put young pieces around Favors and Gordon Hayward. Long-term, I’d rather be in their shoes than Denver’s. (link)

How does this relate to the Warriors?

 

So I'm going to talk about this more in my next article but this needs a little summary.

 

Assuming the team eventually trades Ellis the core of this team will be based around Curry - Klay Thompson - Lee -Udoh. Unless they get a good young player back in a trade of Ellis and some expirings, as well as getting rid of Biedrins contract, in two summers we will most likely be capped out when re-signing Stephen Curry.

 

 

 

 

So the clock is ticking and this team has a two year window in which to construct the core of a team which will have a lot less flexibility from then on to improve. If the team does not have a couple of star players by then, or young players with the potential to become one or be traded for one, then unfortunately the team will be stuck in a position similar to he Nuggets now, except they might not even be making the playoffs.

They can succeed and this doesn't require us to tank next year, rather to be sensible when we trade Ellis and Biedrins. The redeeming factor is that with an Ellis trade, no matter who is acquired, the team should get better whilst allowing the younger players more chance to shine.

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In some ways it may be unfortunate that the fans have been promised that the team will make the playoffs next year, as this may mean paying high prices for players like Tyson Chandler or Deandre Jordan as 'size to protect the rim'. Firstly they would be unlikely to improve the team enough to be worth the loss of financial flexibility in the future and probably wouldn't even improve the team as they would take minutes away from Udoh.

The stark reality is that this is a 36 win team and as such it would be fruitless to try to address it's specific weaknesses such as depth, rebounding and defense now. If there's anything to take from this article it's that the team needs some quality and potential within it and some young players with value first and foremost. It doesn't need Deandre Jordan, Tyson Chandler, Jason Richardson or David West. It needs some young players the team can build a core of, that pushes into or towards the playoffs that then allows it to acquire the specific parts that will make the team better. This has started with Curry, Klay and Udoh and should continue at least until Curry signs his extension. Hopefully management does not get ahead of itself, and completes this phase before addressing the team's specific weaknesses and most likely losing the financial flexibility to improve rapidly and significantly after that.

I am not suggesting a rebuild or tanking, just vigilance and realistic expectations, whilst not necessary looking for a player like Iguodala in an Ellis trade, rather a young player with potential.

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This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!

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Nice write up

The only bit I would argue is that the David Lee trade seemed like it would make sense at the time, and still may if he can reach his highest level of production and work with the new coaches on their defensive schemes. Randolph’s ridiculous “potential” seemed to be fading fast, and there was a little doubt that his value would remain as high as it was. In addition to that, his repitive injuries cast doubt on his durability. Looking at his progess in the NBA so far, it’s possible that he will be a starter in the next two to three years.

Your main points were argued by evans in his post, which basically called to tank the season for a high 2012 pick to escape mediocrity.

It smells like hope in this mug

by danielholl on Jul 1, 2011 4:11 PM PDT reply actions  

I'm not arguing that the team should tank

This article is really just a huge introduction to the next couple that will address the team’s future in depth. I just wanted to try and convince some people that we shouldn’t be trying to add the ‘finishing touches’ to this team, that should happen after we resign Curry and cap out, these are the two years two build a young, valuable core.
Also if you have a look at Randolph’s numbers once Kevin Love went down at the end of the season he showed yet again that he has the potential to start at PF
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3455/anthony-randolph

by UKwarrior on Jul 1, 2011 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Point taken

However the concept of having a multitude of young players with relatively low contracts implies avoiding players who are past their rookie contracts who deserve good money. Playing those youngsters usually doesn’t equal a winning record in the NBA. Not the same definition as tanking but the same results.

Also, your argument for Randolph being a starter is no good. How many games did they win when he played 20+ minutes? Plus look at his turnovers….

It smells like hope in this mug

by danielholl on Jul 1, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Plus I do not remember any point where the W's had a chance to trade Monta for Love?

Just speculation. This is a nice write up……however it does lean a lot on AR’s trade value which was at an absolute peak at the Lee trade. Not concidering that elusive,eventual ,down the road, at the end of the rainbow day when he finally reaches his “potential”.

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 1, 2011 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Logic says to me that if they work on building even just a somewhat better team......

doesn’t that mean that they can still trade everyone? Blowing up the team is fine for the draft but the draft never seems to help the Warriors much. Last year after a season of no starter health, expirings plus D-Leaguer’s call ups and even THEN only suiting up 6 or 7 players in some games we ended up with the friggen #6th pick rather than a top 5 and we drafted for need rather than BPA……

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 1, 2011 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

True

Yet the warriors idea of improvement has unfortunately been to trade young cheap players with potential for expensive players who aren’t going to take us over the top but cap us out. Unfortunately if you improve like that you miss out on the chance to truly improve.
Hence why I will argue in the next article that we’d be better off when trading Monta to take a flier on a young player with potential like Utah did, than to trade for a player who slightly improves us but ruins our flexibility going forward

by UKwarrior on Jul 1, 2011 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

I guess the point was that Lee was never going to be a difference maker for this team as it stands

So it was naive to trade a promising young player on a rookie contract for him on his huge contract.
Randolph had the potential to realistically be a phenomenal defender at the 4, yet we gave that up for a 28 year old who’s being paid 80m over 6 years and is stopping us from improving as easily.
The argument is more philosophical that in future we shouldn’t do trades like that as I will argue in my next article

by UKwarrior on Jul 1, 2011 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

if the season is cut short

i see us becoming a lottery team again or close to it atleast. we can always trade up.

curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.

by bimmercirem3 on Jul 1, 2011 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

No. We only have our pick protected if it’s top 7 I think.

by Uwe Blog on Jul 2, 2011 5:06 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

awesome article be the way...

we keep half assing our approach to basketball AND business. Lets be real. Keep aquiring trade assests AND lets get a pick in the 2012 draft. No More Lateral moves. Ditch our scrubs for CASH!!!! WAHHHHHHHOOOO

by be drier on Jul 1, 2011 4:20 PM PDT reply actions  

Small-ish sample size, but I think it’s quite possible that Udoh’s impressive defensive impact leads to more missed shots, which in turn leads to more team rebounds.

To go from that to asserting “Udoh is a better rebounder than Biedrins [or Lee]” is a Mr. Fantastic-like stretch. On a per minute basis over their careers, Biedrins has pulled almost twice as many boards as Udoh (12.0 to 6.3 per 36, career).

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 1, 2011 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

...

Great piece, btw. Rec’ed!

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 1, 2011 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

The team collects a HIGHER PERCENTAGE of total available rebounds when Udoh is on the floor

For example when subbing in Udoh for Biedrins into the team’s starting lineup the team collects a higher percentage of available rebounds….
I’m using a percentage not a number so it doesn’t reflect his defensive

by UKwarrior on Jul 1, 2011 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, again, I’d caution against drawing conclusions based on rebounding data drawn from Udoh’s 1030 career minutes. Plus-minus data is pretty noisy in such small samples.

But even if we postulate that he has a more positive impact on team rebounding than player B or C, I don’t think it follows that he’s a “better [individual] rebounder.” You could just as easily say Udoh and Jeff Adrien are “better scorers” than Monta Ellis, as the team scores more points per 100 possessions with them on the floor (and fewer with them off) than they do with Monta.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 1, 2011 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

In some ways your right

However rebounding is one of those things where in a single moment the ball is in the air and someone has to grab it. It doesn’t matter who as long as it’s on your team, the person who gets it often hasn’t done anything and it just falls to them,
With scoring someone has to put the ball in the hoop themselves, and it is a much more personal accomplishment than grabbing a ball in the air.
I gets it’s a difference of opinion in whether you believe a players effect on team rebounding is more important than the number they actually collect.
But if the team rebounds better with Udoh in the same lineup instead of Biedrins then in my view that makes him a better rebounder

by UKwarrior on Jul 1, 2011 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember this argument a few years ago, when a radio show host was comparing a pitcher with a really low ERA (outdated stat, but still) who never won games to a pitcher with a high ERA who was winning a lot of games.

The radio show host argued that if he had to choose which player to start in a must win game, he would take the pitcher with the win total, because the team wins more when he pitches and so that made him a better pitcher.

Correlation does not and never will equal causation.

by belilaugh on Jul 3, 2011 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

We can talk about blowing up the team untill we are blue in the face but.........

Untill the OWNER makes it policy, the FO has no choice but to keep trying to improve the team bit by bit.

How many owners ever admit to their fan base that they are blowing up the team for a complete rebuild? With 18/19 year olds as BPA in the draft that means 3-5 years to get to a winning season(even that hasnt come true for the Wolves or Kings) much less playoffs and championships. And that is if you are lucky enough to get Clipper talent…BG was a miracle for them in the lucky zone of a Durant or a step below LeBron, Howard etc. Even Chris Paul didn’t take the Hornets to the promised land.

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 1, 2011 4:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Great piece, dewd

That was a pretty cogent breakdown of our predicament. I guess if you pull back far enough, there are really two sort of main directions this team can take to improve: rebuild vs reload. Curios to see what you have to say about Udoh.

by Jeremy Belvins on Jul 1, 2011 8:45 PM PDT reply actions  

I guard my curios jealously. Personally, I wouldn’t give up My Robb Nen bobblehead or my Speed Racer lunchbox to hear what he had to say about Udoh.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 2, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah it's not like I have anything earth shattering to say

It just bugs me that Larry Riley doesn’t seem to appreciate this guy and wants to get some ‘size to protect the rim’. If that’s Nene or Marc Gasol I’m ok with that, I just hope it’s not Deandre Jordan or Tyson Chandler as they would eat massively into the cap and not likely do a better job in that regard.
What we really need is size to score in the post, with udoh the defence is dandy

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ha, I was just riffing on Blevins’ “curios” comment.

Basically agreed with your thoughts on Udoh. Where I think we may diverge is on Chandler. He’s obviously not as polished offensively as Nene or Gasol, but I think a lot of people don’t realize what an absolute beast he was last season:

(per 36)
13.1 pts on .697 ts
12.1 reb
1.5 tov
+6.95 adjusted plus-minus
-9.5 defensive plus-minus in the playoffs, for a team that won the NBA championship

Yeah, it was a career year; and it’s always risky to offer pricy long term deals after career years. But those aren’t that far off his career numbers. It’s a pretty fair bet that he’ll continue over the next 4-5 seasons to be a very efficient lowish volume scorer and an excellent rebounder and defender.

I guess it really comes down to the specific terms of the contract. Given the depth of Cuban’s pockets, it’s quite possible that the pricetag will be prohibitive (either in AAV or in total years for a guy who turns 29 in October). But in terms of pure production, I don’t see that much of a difference between Chandler and Nene or Gasol. If anything, I think his length and defensive chops might make him a better complement to Lee (assuming we’re sticking with Lee).

One advantage to Gasol: he’s 2.5 years younger than both Nene and Chandler. That may not seem like much, but when we’re talking about a 5-6-year guaranteed contract, the fact that he’d only be 31-32 at the end of the deal, as opposed to than 34, is a fairly big plus, imo.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 2, 2011 8:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

a 5-6 year guaranteed contract might not be possible anymore. So say the Warriors and Grizz can offer Gasol the same money for the same time.

Connely v Curry
Allen v Ellis
Gay v Wright
Randolph V Lee
Arthur v Udoh
Haddadi v Biedrins
Mayo v Williams
Battier v Thompson

I’m sure he’d stay with the Girzz seeing as they have the more talented lineup. Plus he’s familiar. Though Battier and Allen ar UFA’s so they might not be back. Which makes us the better team.

In all likely hood we’d probably have to do a sign and trade that involved Biedrins and Udoh and a future pick(s). Or an Ellis, Udoh, Tyler, and pick(s) for Gasol and Mayo

by myk on Jul 3, 2011 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great piece. It’s always nice to see a post that’s realistic about expectations. I’ve always thought that this team wasn’t going to be anything more than first round fodder. I don’t like the Warriors’ “win now” mentality when they have so little room to improve cap-wise. Of course, with the new CBA, who knows what will happen?

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross

by doubleteapot on Jul 1, 2011 9:15 PM PDT reply actions  

Very enjoyable read! And nice title ;)

I may be in the minority of fans who would prefer the Warriors trade Ellis to a team for multiple first round picks and cap relief, instead of trading for Andre Iguodala.

I have so much confidence in our front office, and the diligence of our scouting team, that I would feel more than comfortable taking our chances of rebuilding via the draft. We have the guard depth to afford such a deal.

by lilboots on Jul 1, 2011 9:33 PM PDT reply actions  

the thing is, is that i partially agree if we havent been in rebuilding mode for the past 15 years.

if we weren’t stuck with bad management and we need to feel the need for progress, i think trading monta for equal or of different value is what this team needs.

if we were in just a normal situation, i definitly would choose the path of mulitple first round picks and cap relief. but of course we’ve been through this path and it has time and time again failed us when we trade talent for potential. the reason i would choose this path is because 2012 seems very promising with the talent pool and if we dont see monta in the fold in the future, then 2012 is the perfect season to start fresh with new draft picks and free agency.

all i know is that 2012 will be a special year and it has to become our year if we were to ever want to succeed in a fast pragmatic way. think about it, if we can somehow get top 5 draft pick(s) and secure a good cap relief either through trading monta and/or beans then we can sign a big FA and have some left over for some good role player or even a starting 2grd. our talent pool would just have become significantly greater.

think about:
curry/lin/jenkins
FA 2grd/Klay/draft pick
Dwright/Reggie/draft pick
Dlee/Lou
DHoward/Udoh/Tyler

After one whole season with our 2011 rookies and if they produce, we’re looking at a very competent bench and powerful too. A frontline of Dlee/Lou/Howard/Udoh/Tyler … god how can you not deny this HOWARD. The talent is great with this team lol. The thing is if we can somehow get a FA Wing guard and replace 2grd with Reggie or Klay, I can’t see Dwright becoming a starter.

curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.

by bimmercirem3 on Jul 1, 2011 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

and assuming beans get back into form

then beans can become that formidable center but in a backup situation for howard. A Howard/Beans is not so bad.

curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.

by bimmercirem3 on Jul 1, 2011 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

prefer the Warriors trade Ellis to a team for multiple first round picks and cap relief, instead of trading for Andre Iguodala.

How is that possible? This could be a dumb question unless you mean multiple 1rst round picks+ “expirings” right? There to be a contract match in there somewhere right?

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 2, 2011 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

It most likely means expirings I assume

Though there are some teams who could absorb him like Minessota or the Pacers. I’d just like to have the salary relief by next summer so we have one last season to get a young core before Curry resigns

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Forgive me

Yes, trade Monta for an expiring(s) contract, along with the multiple first round picks. We haven’t had a capable front office for quite a long time. I don’t think we need Monta to get wins, and I think building through the draft via Jerry West and Co.’s direction would be a great way to begin a winning legacy.

Granted, Mark Jackson’s job is supposedly on the line, but I don’t think he’ll get the hook if our roster doesn’t reflect the kind of talent justifiable to a 45+ win team. It would be foolish to hold him accountable for any potential failure, as we’re clearly still covering our tracks and have yet to really move forward. It would be dumb, really. Between Malone and Jackson, plus Lacob’s “review” reaching finality, I doubt the problem will be our coaching staff.

by lilboots on Jul 2, 2011 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm bothered by the assumptions that Lee...

is not the player to put the Warriors “over the top”. That concept only works in a vacuum. And last I checked, there are 29 other teams that also are trying to get the right guy to put them over the top. Let’s say another team makes a brilliant move to get the right guy…but so does another…but so do the Warriors. If by “over the top” you mean winning the NBA championship, two of the teams with brilliant, perfect moves will, by your logic, have made bad—failed—moves. Not true at all. Obviously a team needs to make MULTIPLE good moves. And there is no doubt that David Lee could be a player contributing to an NBA championship with his current salary if other shrewd decisions are made by his team.

by breaker on Jul 2, 2011 8:47 AM PDT reply actions  

What I was saying was that as a young team with a poor record

It was short sighted to acquire a player like Lee for a huge amount of money and a massive impact on our cap space and flexibility going forward when he wasn’t going to be the player to make this team a winner.
He is inhibiting the options for the ownership to take ‘shrewd decisions’ because he has little value and a massive contract.
As i said in the article, a team like ours needs to view its players as assets and not pieces of the puzzle as ultimately their value may lie in whether they bring the team a star or a decent player. Unfortunately Lee has no value in that sense

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

acquiring Lee wasn't shortsighted at all

What you fail to realize is that due to the Warriors total lack of playoff success and front office mismanagement, they don’t have the resume that other teams have in convincing top notch all stars to come play for them. This isn’t anything knew, there are several teams around the league stuck in the same position as the Warriors, but it shocks me to see every week people on these pages talk about the Warriors as if they are in the same boat as a Lakers, Celtics, Spurs in regards to free agent signings. We are part of the Bucks, Timberwolves, Kings boat guys, and we need to overpay just to convince 2nd tier players to come play for us.

So why am I not bother by the Lee trade? First of all I think Lee will be better. Part of the problem last year I believe was the total emphasis of guard oriented offense mixed with a lack of chemistry between Steph, Lee and to a less extent Monta (towards the end of the season Monta and Lee had finally started to develop some pick and roll chemistry). If used properly, I think Lee can be a 20 and 10 guy, and lets face it he is the best power-forward this team has had in a looooong time. The signing was good because even if it only helps to make us 15 wins better, it increases the public image of the team for other free agents that the Warriors are an organization dedicated to winning.

People need to get off the, OMG IF WE DIDN’T HAVE LEE, ELLIS, BEANS CONTRACT WE’D BE IN THE D.HOWARD RUNNING. No…only good teams are going to be in that running, the Warriors wouldn’t have had enough money over 5 seasons to convince him otherwise.

by kyzah on Jul 2, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'd argue that the reason teams like the Bucks, Timberwolves and Kings stay in this position

Is because they waste their money on 2nd tier players. Think about how the bucks last season wasted a solid young core to sign Maggette, Salmons and Gooden and had to give up a draft pick to be rid of their salaries.
It’s much better to build a young core through trades and the draft and then go after players like Lee. I’m not saying he isn’t a useful player, just it was shortsighted to acquire a player like him at this time. With cap space and flexibility there will always be opportunity to acquire 2nd tier players like him in the future that want to be overpaid.

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is because they waste their money on 2nd tier players

It’s not wasted, at least not always, its part of the problem that I stressed above. There are teams, due to their location, front office reputation, etc. who quite simply have no choice but to invest in 2nd tier stars because superstars are PURPOSEFULLY avoiding playing in those cities. The Warriors had tons of cap space following the Baron Davis departure and had been in the playoffs the year before and just missed out the following year. Despite that, they couldn’t convince any of the top free agents at the time Brand or Arenas to come here and settled for Maggette. Now as it turned out we were probably better off, but it wasn’t coincidence that even though we had the money and recent success. The Warriors franchise has a reputation that turns off players. Saying the front office is dumb to invest in 2nd tier stars is ridiculous when 1st tier stars don’t want to come here.

It’s much better to build a young core through trades and the draft and then go after players like Lee

Isn’t that what we have now? Ellis and Andris are draft picks, Curry and Udoh are draft picks, Williams is a D Leaguer and Wright is a free agent signing from last year. We added Lee in a trade last year and our core is all around the mid 20’s. What you seem to be proposing is that we scrap this project now, start from scratch again with Curry, and hope over the next 2 – 5 years we can draft better players. But I imagine that spending the next 2 years tanking so that we can gather picks and cap relief won’t do much to improve the image around the league for free agents that coming to play here is a career killer. Maybe we’ll luck out and get another Lebron James, but that didn’t work out in the end for Cleveland either.

by kyzah on Jul 2, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not arguing that we shouldn't ever sign guys like D Lee and I definitely don't want us to tank

I just argue for vigilance in trying to acquire those guys NOW as they are likely to dramatically reduce the team’s flexibility to acquire other players down the road.
As I’ll argue in future posts I want the team to acquire some young, cheap players or picks for Ellis and wait until the season when Curry needs to resign to go after the first or second tier players as this will allow us to build a better core with the leeway to acquire those players.

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Who says Curry will resign here?

Particularly if they implement a plan to grow via future drafts. I understand what your saying: you don’t believe Ellis and Curry can play together and you would prefer to trade Ellis for future potential than build around them. As fans it’s easy for us to sit back when it’s not our organization and rationalize to ourselves that this would be the smart way to do business.

What I’m saying is that history has not shown that free agents are lining up to come play here. Lee was quite honestly the exception, probably overpaid, but he had real playoff contending teams calling him to come play for them. Your plan which MIGHT be sound in theory, carries enormous risks of setting the franchise backwards by banking on several unknown factors: the quality obtained by draft picks, Curry’s willingness to resign here, free agent’s willingness to sign here, etc. This year’s draft should have frightened you more to even suggest banking on future drafts.

I’m not saying that I’m super thrilled with the team we have to date, but what I am saying is that there is more certainty right now then breaking it up for draft picks and hoping top tier players will suddenly decide the Warriors are a top notch franchise to come play for. Sometimes you need to be happy with what you can get instead of complaining about the unobtainable (reference back to Dwight Howard).

by kyzah on Jul 2, 2011 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

As I will argue in the next article

Seeing as Ellis hurts the team massively why not trade him for draft picks and get some flexibility? Its a win win and doesn’t leave us stranded with bloated contracts and little room to improve afterwards. We do better from then on and get a chance to add some better players in the next year or so via free agency or trade.
Remember the last two seasons suggest we could trade ellis for nothing but a trade exception and the team would have a better record

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Problem is even the wolves would not consider Ellis for the #2 pick...

And they are a team with too many PF’s and need a SG. On the other hand they are idiots for passing on Kanter/Jonus and taking another PF. So perhaps they are not a good example after all.

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 3, 2011 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

As I will argue in the next article

I will counter your argument with statistics from next and future seasons and future comments from prospects that may be highly respected by that time.

With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".

by KillaContract on Jul 6, 2011 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Who says Curry will resign here?

He would be a restricted free agent under current rules, therefore he is pretty much forced to resign with the Warriors as we can match any offer he gets

by UKwarrior on Jul 6, 2011 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

therefore he is pretty much forced to resign

I do not like the way the new ownership tends to do this such as they did with Rowell and the former trainer. I would rather they just call it how it is and say they are fired! Never waist a good firing to motivate and suppress your labor force is my motto.

With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".

by KillaContract on Jul 6, 2011 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I hope Curry doesn't resign

I’d like him to keep playing with us.

_______________________________________________________________
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by Evanz on Jul 6, 2011 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are teams, due to their location, front office reputation, etc. who quite simply have no choice but to invest in 2nd tier stars because superstars are PURPOSEFULLY avoiding playing in those cities.

this is the kind of attitude that results in being stuck in mediocrity

Saying the front office is dumb to invest in 2nd tier stars is ridiculous when 1st tier stars don’t want to come here.

in a non-desirable market, you literally HAVE to find your first tier superstars in the draft. overpaying 2nd tier stars to keep you stuck in mediocrity lowers those chances significantly.

Isn’t that what we have now? Ellis and Andris are draft picks,

neither of those players are on rookie contracts. overpaying your old draft picks that are not 1st tier superstars is just as bad or worse than overpaying 2nd tier talent.

by bigkino217 on Jul 2, 2011 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

in a non-desirable market, you literally HAVE to find your first tier superstars in the draft. overpaying 2nd tier stars to keep you stuck in mediocrity lowers those chances significantly.

Which draws back to my other point, that selling Curry on being patient for several years while you try to rebuild through the draft is dangerous. Trading Ellis for draft picks and cap space is NOT a step forward but a step backwards, with the hope that your picks will work out and/or you will convince a top tier talent to come here. Curry wanting to be part of another set of rebuilding years isn’t a sure thing at all, despite what you may believe. I wouldn’t be shocked if he decided to test free agency when his contract runs out.

Ray Ratto said something on the radio Friday that kinda caught me by surprise but sorta summed up what my thinking on Monta has been. Basically he said that there was a reason Monta’s availability was being asked by playoff teams around the league, and it wasn’t because he was a bad player. He also said that fans tend to under-appreciate how good their own players are, and that Warrior fans were generally under-appreciating how good Monta actually was. No he’s not a top tier talent and he never will be, but he’s certainly alot more valuable then a gamble on some draft picks.

neither of those players are on rookie contracts. overpaying your old draft picks that are not 1st tier superstars is just as bad or worse than overpaying 2nd tier talent

So then would it be safe to assume that you think the best available course for the Warriors would be to continuously play at a lottery team level, in the hopes that someday a Lebron/D. Howard/Kobe/ drops into our laps via the draft system? That when rookie contracts come up that we let them ago because they are only 2nd tier players and not elite-caliber. I’m happy your such a resilient fan but personally I’m pretty tired of being lottery team every year. When players play well, you need to pay them. Period. Ellis and Beans were due major pay upgrades when their contracts came up and you’d be kidding yourself to think that other teams wouldn’t of jumped to pay them if the Warriors had said, meh your not tier 1 talent, how about a mid-level contract?

Think about the Warriors 2 years ago when our starting lineups were Monta, Randolph, and a bunch of d-leaguers. Sure we could do that every year with the hopes that someone turns out to be a hall of famer that the rest of the league missed out on, but I wouldn’t commit my organization to that process either.

by kyzah on Jul 2, 2011 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t be shocked if he decided to test free agency when his contract runs out.

well he’d be an RFA, and we’d be able to match any offer.

So then would it be safe to assume that you think the best available course for the Warriors would be to continuously play at a lottery team level, in the hopes that someday a Lebron/D. Howard/Kobe/ drops into our laps via the draft system?

or develop enough young assets to land a disgruntled 1st tier talent when they want out of their team.

That when rookie contracts come up that we let them ago because they are only 2nd tier players and not elite-caliber.

you misunderstand me completely. i specifically said don’t OVERPAY them.

I’m happy your such a resilient fan but personally I’m pretty tired of being lottery team every year.

yet, the warriors have continually overpaid non top-tier talent, resulting in the lottery almost every year. why are you satisfied with an approach that leads to the lottery almost every year when you claim you don’t want to be a lottery team every year?

by bigkino217 on Jul 2, 2011 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

you can make the playoffs with 2nd tier talent

but when your “2nd tier talent” is god-awful at one end of the court, they’re not really 2nd tier talent.

by bigkino217 on Jul 2, 2011 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

why are you satisfied with an approach that leads to the lottery almost every year

Because I’d rather have a front office that tries to win then one that tries to lose with the hopes of winning later. I guess that means i prefer the Warriors to the Wizards hah.

More to the point you failed to address why the Warriors have to overpay for 2nd tier talent. I said it multiple times up above but I’ll say it again. Some organizations, if they want to stay competitive, have to overpay 2nd tier talent stars to stay. Period. I didn’t say it was right, it certainly isn’t fair, it simply is how the NBA is structured. Maybe when we finally see the CBA changed we will have a system that address’ the problem all the non-elite teams in the league face with free agency.

by kyzah on Jul 2, 2011 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

the problem is

the warriors don’t have any 2nd tier talent (except maybe steph, who is still on a rookie contract). they have some maybe 3rd and 4th tier talent (if that) that they gave 2nd tier talent money.

by bigkino217 on Jul 2, 2011 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Seeing as trading Ellis would make the team significantly better going on his performances and +/- the last 2 years

Trading him for draft picks and or young players + cap is a massive step forward. It may not immediately leave the team as good as if they traded for Iguodala, but trading one overpaid third tier talent for another who’s even more overpaid isn’t the way to improve the team most going forward. It would be more likely to leave them stuck in a slightly better situation than now

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 12:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Ellis is easily a top 10 shooting guard in the league. That isn’t 3rd tier. He has definitely played way too many minutes and he would most definitely be more effective as a 2nd or 3rd offensive option as he was during his highlight year, but at the time he got his contract extension he was still the one of the best young players around the league.

You could also argue that when Beans got his contract extension he was one of the top 10 centers in the league as well. I’m infinitely more dissapointed in his regression, but I still think he can be effective once he sorts his priorities out.

But I’d be interested in who you would consider a 2nd tier player in this league and who you would consider a 3rd/4th and why Monta would fit in there. I imagine you said it only to discredit my statement that 2nd tier players are the best talent the Warriors are likely to be able to obtain as the NBA is structured going forward.

by kyzah on Jul 3, 2011 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

First tier talent: Superstar, most likely a two way player like D Howard, Lebron, Wade, CP3, Duncan

Second tier: One way star like Melo or Amare, or young players who are almost superstars ie Westbrook and in my opinion Rose, or overall quality players like Manu Ginobli, potentially Steph Curry

Third tier: Borderline stars, most likely have large flaws ie Monta, Igoudala, Josh Smith, Danny Granger

Obviously this is very vague and there are obvious exceptions

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions  

so to clarify

You dont believe Melo, Amare, Rose, Westbrook, Manu, or “potentially” Steph have large flaws in their games?

Interesting.

by kyzah on Jul 3, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Obviously

I’ve sort of been put in an impossible position where its hard to fit hundreds of players into some tiers.
However those players are better than the players with flaws in the tier below

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I’ve sort of been put in an impossible position where its hard to fit hundreds of players into some tiers.

Not really that impossible, its just impossible for you to claim that there is some difference between your tier 2 guys and tier 3 guys. They all have gaping holes in their games that make them non all stars.

I’d say there were 3 tiers, tier 1 guys who are two way players, tier 2 guys who either dominate one way or are good at everything but not great anything, and tier 3 guys who are pure role players, guys who come in to do specific jobs well and not expected to carry any category for the team.

When you look at playoff squads squads there are typically 1 or 2 of the tier 1 guys, 2 or 3 of the tier 2 guys, and the rest of the team is in that tier 3 area.

by kyzah on Jul 3, 2011 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well except all the guys i've put in tier 2 have been all stars except stephen Curry

There are definitely differences between what I call tier 2 and 3.
For example Monta doesn’t have nearly the same effect on the team as Manu.
I think the tier 2 players are near complete players but have some flaws, whereas tier 3 are relatively more one dimensional. Except Iguodala who is relatively more complete but isn’t as special a player in other areas

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

ok

So whether or not you’ve been voted into the all-star game should be a determining factor on how to evaluate players.

For example Monta doesn’t have nearly the same effect on the team as Manu.

Because Monta has played alongside similiar talent as Manu throughout his entire career. Ya. Granted I’d agree that Manu is more complete then Monta, but try to be at least marginally fair,

I think the tier 2 players are near complete players but have some flaws

I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree then if you believe Carmelo Anthony, Amara Stoudemire, Derrick Rose, or Russell Westbrook are “near complete” players. Personally I think those guys are incredibly talented and incredibly flawed.

by kyzah on Jul 3, 2011 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think we're having a pretty pointless debate

I think if you asked the majority of people there’s a pretty big difference between the players in those 2nd and 3rd tiers i suggested.
Just have a look at this: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/110217

Tho it does value Monta promisingly high

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

problem is

monta is not dominant on the offensive end, and is god awful at the defensive end. even by your definition, monta is not a tier 2 player

by bigkino217 on Jul 3, 2011 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ellis is easily a top 10 shooting guard in the league.

“Easily” is something that many would dispute. It becomes less ‘easy’ to support this statement when you consider the 50% of the game that is defense.

by jae on Jul 6, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like this post. It's very well thought-out.

Except the only thing that I disagree with is that you seemed to slander David Lee. That he was a short sided trade, and that he will not be able to carry the warriors. However, in my mind he’s one of the best defending PF’s in the league. You say it would have been ideal to acquire Kevin Love, but it was David Lee’s hard work and persistence on both ends of the floor that stopped Kevin Loves double-double streak.

Also David Lee brings a swagger onto the court that is hard to find in players. He stands his ground doesn’t get pushed around, and is always aggressive! Which I believe is a key asset to any big. His mid-range jumper which has become more and more consistent, adds to the deadly arsenal of moves we call his game.

I completely agree with the point you made that he is extremely over-paid, however he has shown that he is capable of being a serious threat in this league & also has shown qualities of being an all-star.

by Warriors realist on Jul 2, 2011 12:55 PM PDT reply actions  

However, in my mind he’s one of the best defending PF’s in the league.

i really really hope you were joking. david lee might be the worst defensive PF in the league.

by bigkino217 on Jul 2, 2011 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I stopped reading there.

by Uwe Blog on Jul 2, 2011 11:39 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

If David Lee is one of the best defensive PGs in the league

then he would be a perennial all star and we would have never had a chance of getting him. A guy who puts up great offensive numbers, rebounds, and plays great individual D? That’s a championship building block.

You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!

by Reverend_Randy on Jul 2, 2011 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm really looking forward to him actually running the pick and roll with Curry next year tho

Would do a lot for this team’s wins and the extra 2-3 assists it could get Curry would probably increase his profile and make him seem like more of a star which is exactly what this team needs to attract other players.
If they’re not running the pick and roll then he serves little purpose (not that there’s anyone to back him up mind, we lost them when we traded for him)

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

err

obviously should say PF

You are not a warrior; you're a beginner!

by Reverend_Randy on Jul 2, 2011 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

In regards to DLee. The owners and the league knew the lockout was coming. Lacob was probably informed of this while he was attempting to buy.

My question is this.

Is it possible that the Warriors knew about the lockout and hedged a bet that there would be serious contractual reform as part of the new CBA?

How does this effect DLee?

One of the offers the owners suggested is to throw out certain contracts, which would ultimately lead to a restructuring of contracts for some players.

What if each team was allowed to restructure or void one contract on its squad?

Maybe the Warriors overpaid Lee just to get him here. Hoping that once he got here, he’d realize how much his team’s success is tied into backcourt, as well as see how and where they lack talent wise. So with the new CBA, they’d be able to restructure his contract to 9-10 mil annually, as well as knock off a year or 2.

Especially with Lee coming from a very wealthy family and being the ultimate team player, it seems that he, moreso than anyone else in the entire league, would take a paycut for the sake of winning.

If Lacob, Riley, West and Jackson were to explain to Lee how a paycut could keep Curry here for the rest of his tenure, as well as bring in a free agent like Nene, I can’t really see DLee saying no to that. And if he does, maybe they’d be able to void his contract and go after Nene anyway and play him with Udoh.

This is all speculation, but this new regime seems to like to gamble. Like talking to Ellis about Nene, even when the consensus was that Nene would stay on for his last year because of the lockout, this team said he wouldn’t. Surprisingly, Nene opted out.

Maybe this team saw another major development happening before most. West, Jackson, Riley, Malone, Bob Meyers and even Lacob have a ton of NBA business experience from all different perspectives. Maybe this brain trust is on to something.

This sort of restructuring would clearly help teams the league is interested in keeping successful like Miami, New York, the Lakers, and Boston. As well as small market teams like Orlando, OKC, SA and Memphis. Who would all be able to keep their current competitive squads in tact more easily.

It would also likely create an incredibly talented and large FA class for the next season. Which would bring back buzz to many dilapidated fans and markets around the country.

Obviously there is nothing to prove that this is fact, I’m only taking what I’ve been hearing and reading from reps and the media to make assumptions. But if this indeed happens, the Warriors would suddenly have a ton of future cap flexibility without having to make a single trade.

by myk on Jul 2, 2011 3:04 PM PDT reply actions  

If the warriors wanted future cap flexibility and the chance to acquire nene

Wouldn’t they just have kept Randolph?
Then they have a promising but most importantly cheap young player

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Because David Lee is hella better than Randolph in every way on and off the court.

I was asserting that they took a calculated risk that would land them David Lee and also give them cap space to go get another top FA.

Lee, Nene, Wright, Ellis and Curry with Udoh off the bench is way better than Nene and Udoh up front and Randolph off the bench.

by myk on Jul 3, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well David Lee can't defend firstly and is a poor team rebounder

If he was our only big contract I’d say okay to the trade maybe. Because it allows the team to build around a solid foundation of the Curry and Lee pick and roll.
However it was naive of management to add another big contract to a team that had previously won 26 games and was capped out.
We can debate the merits of Lee over Randolph I guess, but he essentially resigned the warriors to mediocrity unless they can get rid of their other big contracts as the team as currently consituted has little room to improve bar an Ellis trade.
Also talking about the debates of Nene with Lee or Udoh is pointless because David Lee’s contract prohibits us from acquiring Nene most likely. And I’d much rather have the lineup with Udoh and Nee with Randolph off the bench as it saves the team about 10m a season and would be much better defensively.

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's why the purpose of my whole post was to assert that the Warriors knew the CBA renewel was up and they'd have serious contractual reform.

Thus allowing them to throw out a contract or 2 or restructure them. If that’s the case then we could sign Nene, with Lee and perhaps Biedrins taking less money.

If not, than yeah, Lee is being paid way too much from what we get from him. If he averages 20 10 for most of his contract, it’s not so bad though.

Also, Anthony Randolph is a horrible defender. He can block shots, but his sad rebounding and weak body make him a terrible defender. I would be shocked if Randolph ever averaged 20/10 and would be suprised if he was even in the league in 5 years.

No question David Lee is the better player on both sides of the ball. Rebounding is needed on this team, Lee’s got that.

by myk on Jul 3, 2011 12:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Lee's got the rebounding why does the team rebound better when he's off the court?

Lee is also one of the worst defenders in the league at PF and offers absolutely no help defense.
Furthermore per 36 minutes randolph actually almost averaged 20/10 and about 2.5 blocks. It was just ridiculous that Mikki Moore and Chris Hunter were taking up his minutes. Also remember at the time he was only 20. He showed all the potential to become a phenomenal player with some extra strength and growth.
http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2010/4/20/1432146/we-all-know-stephen-curry-is-the

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't know who the other team had on the floor for the 10 minutes Lee was of the court, also

it could be that everyone knows that when Lee isn’t on the court that they have to go and rebound.

I watched David Lee play a sub par season and I’ve some of the best moments of AR’s career. Lee is a better rebounder. Period.

Per 36, which doesn’t account for the fatigue of actually playing 36 minutes, and he stil doesn’t average 20/10

by myk on Jul 3, 2011 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

He averaged 19 and 10 and 2.5 blocks per 36

Is that not enough from a 20 year old?? It’s pointless to get stuck in arbitrary groupings like 20/10. I’d much rather have the more than 2 extra bpg and some help defense.
If all Randolph achieved in his career from there was an increase in his efficiency he’d have been a phenomenal player and one of the best pf’s in the league with a bit more bulk. And he definitely looked beefier at the end of the season.

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Is it possible that the Warriors knew about the lockout and hedged a bet that there would be serious contractual reform as part of the new CBA?

I think it’s almost certain. If it’s true they turned down Hill and Thabeet for Biedrins — a sweetheart of a deal — the most logical explanation is that they’re expecting some kind of buyout provision as part of the CBA. In his recent must-read lockout FAQ, the great Larry Coon conjectures that this time around the owners may push for a provision whereby the contracts of players who have been bought out are omitted not just from luxury tax calculation, but from salary cap calculation as well.

If we’re talking about bad contracts, the only thing better than a contract that expires at the end of the year is a contract that expires effective immediately. Reading the tea leaves, I think LacobRiley must think the chances are pretty good that they can turn Biedrins’ voided contract into a long-term contract for Nene, Gasol, or Chandler.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Jul 2, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Definitely. I see no point in doing that trade if it doesn’t help us this summer acquire nene or gasol, not at all big on chandler tho. Biedrins value is at an all time low so we may as well give him a shot next season to improve his value and trade him for expirings anyway but hope his extra value gets them back something extra

by UKwarrior on Jul 2, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

If we want defense and rebounding, Chandler is the man. Marc Gasol is the best available center.

Mostly because he’s the youngest and has the least injury worries. He also is a big body that has an offensive game that I believe will eventually be better than Nene’s ever was. Also as a team looking to built clout and draw attention from all over the league, signing Marc Gasol would mean a few more nationally televised games, Pau vs Marc in the Bay v. LA battle.

I would be extremely happy with any of these three, being that they are, as of last season, 3 of the top 5 players in there position. 1.Dwight 2.Chandler 3.Gasol 4.Bogut 5.Nene

Chandler would be great for his D and rebounding, plus I could see him being a good fit to help Jeremy Tyler. He’s probably gonna get way too much money and attention though.

Nene is the biggest risk due to his age and injuries, but if we keep Biedrins, and provided a sign an trade isn’t needed that involves Lee or Udoh, Nene could play greatly reduced minutes. He could even play next to Biedrins or Udoh.

Nene will also be the cheapest and easiest to sign of the three, not only for the reasons listed above, but also because he has stated his desire to stay on the west coast.

by myk on Jul 3, 2011 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think Chandler brings an 11m upgrade over what we already have

We need someone who can hang out in the low post which in my mind is Nene or Marc Gasol.
They are literally the only 2 players (as well as Aaron Afflolo) I would consider sacrificing future flexibility for as we’re very very unlikely to be able to acquire a better center at any point.

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

I personally feel we need defense and rebounding out of the Center spot more than 15ppg from our starting center.

That’s why I like Chandler. He is better in both those categories than either Nene or Gasol.

Though I do think Gasol is the best available center.

I have been very unimpressed with Nene’s D over the years, but would still welcome the signing with a huge smile.

by myk on Jul 3, 2011 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Looking Forward (for a Forward....or Forward/Center)

First off, great article UKWarrior.

We do need a Big, but we need an efficient bigman, like MYK’s suggestion Unfortunately, with our Monta’, Andris’ and Lee’s contracts it’ll take some
creative “wheeling n’ dealing” to get a Chandler, Nene or Gasol. For me, Biedrins’ performance to salary is the only one I have beef on- I hope he get’s his game back (probably the lockout will help him regain form) But, even with the 3’s contracts, this may be a good thing.that we don’t get a large contract player.

I put together a list of Vets that are efficient and above-average players but are under-utilized by other their respective teams.

Anthony Randolph MIN 6’11 1.9M
Tyrus Thomas CHA 6’10 6.6M
Hakim Warrick PHX 6’9 4M
Thaddeus Young PHI 6’8 2.9M
Marreese Speights PHI 6’10 1.7M
Darrell Arthur MEM 6’9 1.1M
DJ White CHA 6’9 1.1M
DeJuan Blair SAS 6’8 918K
JaVale McGee WAS 7’0 1.6M
Patrick Patterson HOU 6’9 1.8M

Funny that Anthony Randolph tops the list., I expect there will be alot against this (remember, we got his immature talent during Nelson’s tenure-so his stay here was doomed from the beginning) but he has shown tremendous efficiency with
Minnesota. And, with the arrival of Derrick Williams either Beasley or Randolph will have to go.

by N.L Thorough on Jul 4, 2011 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

Chandler's the One

Chandler is the best fit for the Warriors. With Lee here for the next few years, the Ws need strong defense in the paint. And if Ellis is not dealt right away, he also needs help at the rim from a true center with strong D. Chandler provides exactly the kind of offense needed. He doesn’t need the ball much, he cleans the O boards well, he shoots a high percentage, he intimidates, etc. Udoh, Lee, and Chandler make a very good big man rotation with Tyler learning the craft along the way. I like Gasol, but he does not fit. His defense is a minus and on the Ws he would not fill a need, but rather contribute to a deficiency. Bad fit, good player. He would be great with the Knicks who already have Stats. Don’t think Cuban will let Chandler go though, especially after the championship. But if the Ws can get him as an UFA, they are in the playoffs. If they can also trade Ellis for AI then they will have a very good defensive team that can beat anyone. And with Curry, 3 Team USA members who are already very tight.

by petillius7 on Jul 5, 2011 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was surprised by the moves the W's made last off season considering that they were up for sale.

I thought that you dont commit unknown new owners to a new team in the middle of a sale competition….ie would not the new owners expect to make their own moves?

It either had to be that Cohen gave Riley the green light to “improve” the team FOR the sale /sale value…….or Riley wanted to do it for his own purposes to show his management chops and talked Cohen into it…..it did not seem logical to me at the time.

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 2, 2011 3:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Let’s not slander innocent Cohens. Cohan was the former owner.

by jae on Jul 6, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

If we had traded Randolph for Love and picked Monroe

We could have made a much more appealing package for Howard too.

by SPENCEMAN on Jul 3, 2011 9:08 AM PDT reply actions  

It was heavily suggested that it was

Remember at the time Randolph was seemingly an untouchable on the warriors roster and Kevin Love was only getting 28 minutes for the timberwolves, even if I remember correctly there was no real backup and he was their most promising player.
It seemed at the time they didn’t value him much

by UKwarrior on Jul 3, 2011 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

not a possibility i meant

by Only In Fairfax on Jul 3, 2011 10:04 AM PDT reply actions  

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