Is Monta Ellis worth a Top 6 Draft Pick? Two top 10 picks for the Warriors?
by lilboots on Jan 19, 2012 9:55 AM PST
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PrintIs Monta Ellis valuable enough to earn the Warriors a top draft pick for this upcoming selection?
The Warriors may or may not have a 1st round draft choice this season. We know:
A) It's the deepest draft in years. The kind of draft that should make it easy for a team with a top 10 selection to pick up a guy who can be a multiple all-star and some day retire with his franchise. It would be devastating to miss out on such a player at this point.
B) Jerry West is our consultant, and perhaps the best in the game, even today. We don't know how much time he has with us, and his ability to evaluate would be critical in the event of choosing between 4 guys who all possess talent/potential. If we are to build through the draft the way OKC has, now would be the best time.
If such a swap was managed, how possible would it be for the Warriors to have 2 top 10 picks by season's end? The Warriors would struggle by trading Ellis without immediate help, but this would give us a great chance to keep our top 7 pick, as well as pushing the development of our young players.
When you build a house, you don't build the roof first.
By keeping Monta Ellis as our starting shooting guard, we are essentially accepting the fact that in order to be effective, (esp. on the defensive end) we have to design our roster to accommodate such a player, with all his strengths and weaknesses. (e.g. A shot-blocking center, strong help defenders at 3).
This automatically puts us at a disadvantage, because our options of choosing a compatible center, now drop dramatically. In other words, if you start a small backcourt, you're going to need a shotblocker behind them.
If you have a starting center who is a shot blocker, chances are, he's not much of a scorer. The kind of centers who can control the game by scoring and defending the post, are the same kind of guys who are synonymous with names like Dwight Howard. We don't have the talent to trade for such a player, we don't have the draw to sign one, and we don't have the positioning to draft one. So automatically, if you want to be a defensive team, you're disqualified from putting a center in the lineup who's specialty is scoring, if Monta is playing 36 minutes a night.
Question: If Monta Ellis is taking the majority of the offense's shots, when does the improvement of talent in the remainder of your starting lineup begin to matter on that end of the court?
If we somehow end up with a player who becomes a perennial all-star, and we keep Ellis, would he be as effective in a starting lineup with Ellis than without? Isn't this the issue with he and Stephen Curry? Is Kevin Durant better off with a teammate like Westbrook or Rondo?
The Value of Monta Ellis
Is Monta good enough to talk a team into trading a very high draft pick for him? What do you think? He's having a good year, and he's making teammates better.
If you had a legit chance to draft a Lamb, Barnes, or Drummod, would you take it, if it meant giving up Ellis?
Would the result of such a trade encourage Jackson to bring the rookies on faster, and nudge Ekpe a little harder?
By trading Ellis for a pick, do we give ourselves the best chance of keeping our protected draft choice, giving us 2 top 10 picks, + 2 2nd rounders in a draft where talent is sure to bleed over into the 2nd round?
It's time to rebuild.
We have the support from our owner(s), we have the brains (Jerry West), and we have some encumbered talent (Monta Ellis), and we have the opportunity (Very talented draft class). As a franchise who's still searching for an identity and new beginnings, we can't afford to miss out on this.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
let's call the Wizards right now
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 24, 2012 12:40 PM PST up reply actions
Curry can get us a top 3 pick imo
Monta a top 10, it comes down to money
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
only "if" he comes back "healthy"
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 19, 2012 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
I spent last year begging the Wolves & Cavs to swap a high draft pick for Monta and they just would not listen to reason.....
……So I would say that it will just not be a possibility these year of all years…forget this fantasy.
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 20, 2012 10:23 AM PST up reply actions
Sadly I fear this is true
"I didn't hold up no middle fingers. My middle finger is crooked so it sticks out. Maybe that's what was showing." -Metta World Peace
by Butterknuckles on Jan 24, 2012 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
Answer to bolded question: The issue is that Ellis should not be taking a majority of the shots on the offensive end or even a large chunk (more than 20 is bad imo unless you’re making at least 60% of them). His shots stagnate the offense because they are often early in the shot clock. In theory if people want Ellis to take most of the shots then the clamors for better talent are unwarranted because “It’s okay, Ellis can take them.”
Answer to 1st question below bolded question: Ellis is not the type of player who makes people better around him. He doesn’t seem to be a good teacher because he really lacks in the fundamentals of the game (one as simple as not dribbling the ball at like shoulder height). Not to mention since he has this “alpha-dog” style of playing he really doesn’t help the development of other players. For example, Curry blossomed as an amazing star when Ellis was down. Otherwise, Curry’s development as a player was rather slow (that’s partly on him as well but it accelerated with Ellis out). It’s the same for Klay. I’m sure if Klay were to get a larger chunk of the minutes (which he has earned) he would learn the game faster and play better.
Answer to 2nd question below bold: Yes.
Answer to question about KD: Mm that can be debated. For now Durant doesn’t really have a post game (in other words an easy way to create his own shot, even if he can shoot over people). While I do believe that a pass first PG like Rondo would definitely set him up better, for a player like Durant you need some sort of offensive threat to shoulder the load on that team, which ends up being Westbrook. Sefolosha isn’t an offensive threat (nor Perkins nor Ibaka) so really it is up to those 2 to get it done. If Durant had more offensive presence around him (like when they go with Harden) then a passing first PG like Rondo who can drive and dish and finish at the rim is more effective.
Answer to question about Monta and high draft pick: No. Other young teams who would have a high draft pick recognize his limited game and his adverse effect on young players. Teams who have high draft picks are aiming to rebuild with those draft picks (unless the team had some sort of major injury ala Spurs and Robinson w/ Duncan which is rare). As a result, our best chance of getting a draft pick would be from a team who feels that they have enough young talent and need veteran presence (Minnesota is a good example, Sacramento as well). However, I don’t think Ellis nets you better than a 10 draft pick, especially in a draft as deep as this one.
He’s not making his teammates better in the sense that he is being a floor general. He doesn’t run an offense like a PG… He runs it like an off guard or small forward where they aren’t really there to set up the play but they will drive and dish when they see an open man. The main issue i have with Ellis’s game even though his assists have improved is that most of those assists are while he is up in the air, which is bad fundamentals. If you are caught up in the air when you pass you have a much higher chance of getting it stolen (in addition to the stupid turnovers he already makes). So while his assists have been higher, he hurts the flow of the offense because when he has the ball he is in an attack mentality instead of constantly moving the ball, and then passes at the last second when he realizes he has the whole opposing team surrounding him.
Answer to trading Ellis for those players: Yes.
Answer to Jackson’s reaction to trade: Jackson wouldn’t have a choice in that matter. He would have Curry, no SG, Wright, lee, Biedrins and some combination of young rookies and first years.
Answer to effect of trading away Ellis: Yes I do believe this. I also believe that Warrior’s basketball would be more fun to watch too. The offense flows so smoothly with Curry that even if we were losing the same amount of games we’re losing now the fans would appreciate the games more and it would allow players like Thompson to learn the game at a steeper learning curve so that by next season he can be ready to shoulder more minutes and expand his game.
Nith
I appreciate your thorough response. Interesting read, and great points.
You’re right about Monta Ellis not making his teammates better. His constant attack mentality, while easy to applaud in many situations, can really make me turn green in the face. I guess the differential from the norm had me goin there…
Example: A couple games ago, don’t recall exactly, It’s the ending of the quarter in a competitive game. Nate pulls a long rebound, 2 defenders quickly get back with Monta streaking after them down the sideline. Robinson is just approaching half court with the ball now, and Monta is in the closest 3 point corner with his hands up, hysterically waving his arms and shouting for the ball. Nate looks up and see’s two defenders back, one approaching Ellis, and one already set in the paint, waiting. He doesn’t pass the ball to Ellis.
Now, the rest of the team is just catching up to Nate, who’s holding up 25 feet from the goal. Ellis leaves the corner and decides to go under, cutting across the baseline, curling up strong-side to the 3 point line where Nate now stands as the offense is just flaring out to set up. He actually approaches Robinson, Nate looks at him, and quickly but reluctantly gives the hand off. Monta takes one dribble in, meets defender, one dribble out, fadeaway. Miss. 15 seconds left on the clock…..hmmmm.
He couldn’t wait to put up a shot. I’m no mind reader, but it looked as if Monta was frustrated that he wasn’t passed the ball initially during the 1 on 2 fast break. He was absolutely determined to get a shot, because after all, it was “his shot” that Nate didn’t allow him to have in the first place. The fact that he made the effort all the way from the weak side to the strong side, and more or less forced Nate to hand him the ball, point blank, was a pretty damn telling little situation.
Ellis can win you a game in a lot of situations, but most of the time he just pisses on your face.
How do you develop a young team with something like that going on? How do they go through the experiences of what it takes to consistently earn praise for good possessions? Sure makes it tough.
by lilboots on Jan 19, 2012 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Answer to question about Monta and high draft pick: No. Other young teams who would have a high draft pick recognize his limited game and his adverse effect on young players. Teams who have high draft picks are aiming to rebuild with those draft picks (unless the team had some sort of major injury ala Spurs and Robinson w/ Duncan which is rare). As a result, our best chance of getting a draft pick would be from a team who feels that they have enough young talent and need veteran presence (Minnesota is a good example, Sacramento as well). However, I don’t think Ellis nets you better than a 10 draft pick, especially in a draft as deep as this one.
I agree with this 80%. I still believe there is a small window, though not obtrusive, still exists for such a deal. Larry Bird gave Monta Ellis some pretty high praise. I imagine someone like Michael Jordan co-signing on Monta Ellis. Kobe has respect for him and some pretty nice adjectives.. Why wouldn’t a GM?
It’s common knowledge that not every GM is particularly blessed with vision. We also know very well that some owners would just as well prefer something to sell over wins. You could also say that ex-players/current managers of sorts, relish a guy who can score over virtually any defense, with the ability to create his own shot at any given point during a basketball game.
I think any of these 3, or a combination them could buy us a ticket onto that bus we were talking about earlier. Suffice to say, its usually a victim of this combination or in our case holy trinity, that subscribes to more losses than wins, and thus a more talented draft choice.
But 80% of the time, I agree most people aren’t going to give you a top 6 pick for a guy like Monta Ellis.
Indiana and Charlotte
Are not going to be low enough for it to be a top 10 draft pick. Pacers might be the closest to giving up that pick, but I think it’ll be somewhere between 15 and 20. Bobcats need more talent so they’ll keep theirs.
This draft year discussion reminds me of how jealous I am of the way Utah is rebuilding...
They are going to be awsome with the young talent that they are and will collect in this years draft….ITS NOT FAIR!…..sob.
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 20, 2012 10:27 AM PST up reply actions
The answer is
You can’t develop a team like that. If there is something cancerous to the development of your players you must get rid of them (like Al Jefferson and Minnesota’s young guys). They must play minutes and learn the game from experience. However, if you have a player like Monta that hinders their growth by excessive ball domination then it does make it extremely difficult as a player to grow and learn from one’s mistakes because especially when your team is trying to win win win you either don’t get many chances to touch the ball or you get pulled after your first few mistakes.
how would a team take Montay's salary
draft picks don’t get paid as much.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 19, 2012 10:44 AM PST reply actions
Basically agreed with lilboots and Nith.
One thing I would note: I don’t think giving Monta’s minutes to some combo of Robinson, Jenkins, Rush, and Thompson — and giving more control over the offense to Curry — really hurts this team much in terms of W-L. If anything, I’d say it helps it a bit. Which is to say, assuming Curry returns to moderately good health, I don’t think the Monta-less Ws are likely to finish bottom 7.
Still, one first-round pick is better is better than none. if Monta gets us a Top 10 pick … I say go for it.
There will be no extra point!
Ridiculous. Im gonna be a homer now to provide balance. Monta is the 3rd best SG in the league today. Mark and I agree on this.
Imo, he is worth a Top 3 pick in the draft. He isnt supposed to be the floor general, thats the PGs job. He is an elite passing SG. Get him with an elite passing PG and the team would be in great shape.
And I find it fascinating that someone is taking an example involving Monta wanting the ball from Nate as an example of Monta’s flaw. Nate who showed yesterday that he has an even lower bball IQ than Ells. Nate lost us the game yesterday with his over-dribbling, refusal to pass, airball to end the 3rd and ridiculous TO in the 4th. He got Morrow going with his stupidity. Everyone was watching Nate while he dribbled without his head up. He looked like Monta of yesteryear. Monta of this year does not do that unless he is forced to. You all have to admit that he is much improved on making plays for teammates and getting others involved, as well as on defense. Keep in mind again, that he is an SG.
Yes, his efficiency is down but that is because he is the go to guy for those low percentage last second shots. Someone has to take them. For the sake of his fg% I’d be glad if someone else took them. He showed yesterday and the day before that he can make them, however. And even his failed drives also draw so many defenders that it results sometimes in second chance tip ins, which means he is creating efficiency for his teammates.
And he does not stagnate the offense like he did last year/year before. If he takes an early possession its because this team is built for pushing the ball. Scoring with the least resistance (few defenders back, in transition) leads to higher efficieny than a set half-court offense (for this team). Also, the team is also looking to score in the first 14 seconds because the offense does stagnate into an iso situation and contested shot with the shot clock under 10 seconds. Hope you understand that. Thanks.
by MonstaEllis on Jan 19, 2012 12:56 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yes, his efficiency is down but that is because he is the go to guy for those low percentage last second shots.
(This is a claim that’s been made many times, and each time someone looked at the evidence, the evidence contradicted this claim)
by Missing Barry on Jan 19, 2012 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
No, the evidence has shown that Monta doesn’t really take a higher proportion of his shots at the end of the shot clock compared to other members of the Warriors.
by Missing Barry on Jan 19, 2012 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
82games.com has shotclock usage data, if you’re curious.
by Missing Barry on Jan 19, 2012 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
Nice. Though, I wasn't clear. I'm talkin about the end of the quarter half court shots, and or last second iso. From what I've seen its mostly Monta who tries those.
I’m pretty sure he takes these types of shots at a much higher proportion and that these shots lower his efficiency.
And I'm also arguing that someone has to take them. It's a neccessary shot.
I want curry to do all end of quarter shots or last second isos.
I HATE last second isos. So stupid.
As for the realistic effect on Monta’s efficiency, those are a very, very small proportion of the shots he takes.
by Missing Barry on Jan 19, 2012 2:43 PM PST up reply actions
i agree.. when everyone is just standing around .. its frustrating to watch
we had a great inbound play one game against the heat where we threw it in to ellis and klay i think was right there next to him and klay ran across court which dragged lebron with him and then monta was alone on the side with a big slow dude which he easily blew past for a easy layup…
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Jan 20, 2012 11:58 AM PST up reply actions
the last second isos are terrible
and the end of the quarter half court shots do not have that much of an effect on his efficiency. Keep in mind TS% is FGs, 3s, and FT… he has definitely taken enough shots to prevent those shots from affecting his TS% by that much.
I actually don't mind an early shot clock shot in transition....
….but that’s not what Ellis does that kills us. If you watched last night’s game, you saw Ellis take a ffew long 2’s early in the shotclock in the halfcourt offense, not in transition with less defenders back. Wasted possessions in crunch time.
I give Monta somewhat of a pass right now with Curry out… I still look to the Chicago game… the one game where everyone was healthy and playing well as the model of this team’s flow. Curry and Monta’s play was complementary and the team looked flat out good. Without Curry, we have nobody that can run the transition game (where I think Curry is near elite…though not as good a PG in the halfcourt).
by warriorsablaze on Jan 19, 2012 1:38 PM PST up reply actions
warriors have always been a good home team
and a poor road team. I don’t give him credit because he’s also been in the league for many many many years.
Scoring with the least resistance (few defenders back, in transition) leads to higher efficieny than a set half-court offense (for this team).
Not sure if you read the situational. Monta didn’t have the advantage. There were two defenders back. One already on him, and another in position to help. Both players were larger (which is almost obvious, but I forgot to mention).
And I find it fascinating that someone is taking an example involving Monta wanting the ball from Nate as an example of Monta’s flaw. Nate who showed yesterday that he has an even lower bball IQ than Ells.
Haha, exactly.. That’s the whole irony of the situation, dude. A player with low BB IQ (Robinson) was smart enough to recognize a bad opportunity, while Ellis wasn’t. I say that’s more of a poor reflection on Ellis than it is on Nate… I mean, you tell me.
Imo, he is worth a Top 3 pick in the draft.
For real?
Yes, his efficiency is down but that is because he is the go to guy for those low percentage last second shots.
You mean when he starts his move with 2 seconds left instead of 6? But I always thought Monta was the guy shooting with 18 on the clock instead of passing and rotating. I’m gonna find out who’s doing that stuff one of these days…
And even his failed drives also draw so many defenders that it results sometimes in second chance tip ins, which means he is creating efficiency for his teammates.
I’ve never seen so much optimism linked to someone bull heading into three defenders and not being able to finish. Well done.
If he takes an early possession its because this team is built for pushing the ball.
I don’t understand. Are you saying that it’s not always wise to work for a high percentage shot? Are you saying that early shots, though often low percentage, make for a more effective offense?
Also, the team is also looking to score in the first 14 seconds because the offense does stagnate into an iso situation and contested shot with the shot clock under 10 seconds. Hope you understand that. Thanks.
I do not.
for every second chance tip in that monta creates
he turns the ball over at least once by a bad pass, finishes 1 drive, misses 2 more drives, and offensive fouls the last one.
Yeah, the guy who might be having the best individual season of all time so far…
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 23, 2012 8:50 PM PST up reply actions
Someone has to take them.
only if they can’t figure out how to make the extra pass to the open guy.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 19, 2012 2:29 PM PST up reply actions
Mm lets go point by point.
1st Paragraph: Then how come he dominates the ball so much when the POINT GUARD is supposed to be dominating the ball and dictating the offense? In addition, I get so bothered nowadays when people make the claim that “Oh if Monta played with this exact mold of a player then he’d be good.” Yeah if I played with Dwight Howard I could look amazing as a PG if I just fed him nonstop. You build a team where everyone works together and melds. If you have 1 piece that doesn’t fit, you don’t try and build a team to fit that one piece unless that one piece is a superstar or at least all star (Ellis is neither).
2nd Paragraph: I didn’t actually see this game so I can’t comment on that play. Hes improved in the sense that he will pass the ball up when he gets caught in the air, which is nice in that it works but is also poor fundamentals and leads to turnovers in addition to the silly turnovers he already makes (dropping the ball, dribbling off his foot, etc…). His defense was good the first few games but now he’s reverted back to his risky, low reward style where he tries to go for the steal (or is too slow to close out when he’s caught out of position after trying to get that steal).
3rd Paragraph: In fact the opposite happens more often. I’d have to look at the data, but I’m pretty sure Monta takes more “early shot clock” shots than he does late ones, and as it has been said data shows that those “last second shots” have no significant effect on his efficiency. I’d be surprised if it did anyway: he takes like 20-30 shots a game (and few FTs), so if 1 or 2 missed shots at the end of the shot clock should not change very much.
4th Paragraph: If this team is built for pushing the ball, then how come we have a very slow offense that can’t produce points? If we were talking about last year, then yes those early shots make more sense. In fact fundamentally they make sense. He’s trying to catch the defense when they are not completely set and try and get an easy jumper. However, unless you have a good shot (where his fundamentals are not that good) you’ll miss more often than you make. Also these type of early shots are good if used sparingly, but Monta overdoes it. These early shot clock shots don’t help offensive flow because it’s not a fast break: it’s Monta going 1 on 3-5 and just chucking it.
That last sentence is untrue unless you talk about teams with no offensive schemes. Good offensive teams can continue to move the ball and be patient until they get a good shot. The last 10 seconds becomes iso if the play breaks down altogether, but that’s not due to the offense stagnating but more poor execution by someone on the offense, which is a different issue entirely and does not justify an early shot where you are just pulling up for a 3 with 2 guys around you.
Sorry Monsta but absloutely no one is going to give the W's a top 3 draft pick for Monta.
Just aint gonna happened so perhaps it is possible that Monta actually is not “worth” a top 3 draft pick….
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 20, 2012 10:34 AM PST up reply actions
Do we ever really hit in the draft?
I like the idea of getting some picks but we screw that up more than winning.
Harbaugh -- "We're not into answering questions"
Guess I'm still on the fence.
Thompson and Jenkins are looking good these days, so I guess there is hope. I’m just tired of every season we are just in between winning and losing and have to debate lotto picks.
Can we get Wilt Chamberlain…dam screwed that up too.
Go Warriors!
Harbaugh -- "We're not into answering questions"
by Critical Roach on Jan 19, 2012 2:02 PM PST up reply actions
Broken Wing sounded so good
Reminded me of Inspector Gadget, go go gadget arms, but just never panned out for the Warriors like so many that have hit the Oracle.
Harbaugh -- "We're not into answering questions"
by Critical Roach on Jan 20, 2012 5:44 PM PST up reply actions
you don’t think Udoh is good? He’s already a borderline elite help defender. Sure, his O is bad, but the impact he has defensively is remarkable.
Would add Curry to that list.
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 23, 2012 8:52 PM PST up reply actions
Well Udoh is “good” but not 6th pick good….Monroe would have been the obvious choice to me at the time…then there was Davis and Paul as well…..have admit that I was a bit high on Aminu who is not quite as good as Udoh…
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 24, 2012 11:27 AM PST up reply actions
Of course, when Udoh was 21 like Aminu is now, he was sitting on the bench at Baylor ineligible to play because he transferred, after two college seasons in which he averaged 5 and 6 ppg….
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2012 12:17 PM PST up reply actions
that is bad logic...
So you’re saying because we haven’t hit drafts very well in recent years that we shouldn’t draft at all and instead sit in mediocrity while trying to overpay for borderline “stars”? If anything that is the exactly what we need to do: draft more. The second we draft well and get a great talent we won’t need to draft again.
I don't think Monta alone gets us a lottery pick..
… even if he is pretty much guaranteed to be better than half the lottery eventually pans out. Teams know Monta’s at or near his ceiling as player, and will likely prefer to gamble on upside.
My gut reaction at first was that there's no way that Monta gets us a top six pick.
On the other hand, it’s also easy to underestimate the willingness of GMs to be swayed by PPG totals and highlight reel plays.
and with deron in the east, nash getting older, and manu hurt, people might actually think he's an all -star
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
But "all-star" is pretty meaningless.
He might actually make the all-star team this year.
Doesn’t make him a better player.
but it might increase his trade value
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
I always notice once you make an all-star team you get more calls from the refs and a little more respect around the league. Which could make you better.
Well, feel free to run some stats on foul rate for players after making their 1st all-star game. If you can show a significant difference, I’ll definitely jump on board!
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2012 11:04 AM PST up reply actions
pretty sure most all-stars are just good at getting to the line
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Look at the recent NBA.com GM poll.
They’re as stupid as ever.
I think the teams really should start doing it baseball style and giving their intelligent, stat oriented assistants the GM jobs over scouts and former players. Really frustrating to see the moves teams continue to make.
Gambino is a mastermind...
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 19, 2012 9:04 PM PST up reply actions
i have a feeling that Westbrook contract is going to hurt us..
the second and third happiest people to russel westbrook today are Steph Curry and his agent.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 19, 2012 11:02 PM PST up reply actions
the best chance for ellis to snag a good draft pick
would be for him to take a similar role to Marcus Williams in Mullins’ deal. a borderline contending team might think they’ll be successful enough that the pick won’t be too high — which was probably Mullins’ reasoning when he dealt it for Williams. the other team mistakenly thinks Ellis improves their chances to make the playoffs, but he shifts the team’s chemistry, defense, and shot distribution and they actually drop in the standings, improving the draft pick. Almost any combination of events that results in gaining a decent pick for Ellis will involve a strange twist of fortune and circumstances, like multiple teams and players, that are impossible to anticipate from the fans’ viewpoint. the teams that know how to scout and draft aren’t worried about finding a decent player in the lower part of the first round — SA trading players for draft picks an obvious example. On this side of the mirror, though, with the cap tightening in the near future it won’t be easy at all to off-load an expensive vet with baggage.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
by the.monk on Jan 19, 2012 3:57 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I wish...
monta is just not valued like that around the league..The Warriors almost pulled a monta for mayo trade a little over a year ago…that is far from a top 10 pick…I believe other teams view Monta as an undersized, high usage two guard that is a volume scorer but on a bad team (think Antawn Jamison in his warrior days)….before Mark Jackson came in, he was also considered a guy that had inflated ppg stats due to running in a gimmick offense.. I’m not sure how much of this perception has changed.
I’m not saying that the above is the correct perception. Monta has made strides through 14 games to become a better passer and bring better effort on the defensive end. I still think, however, that he has yet to shed the reputation as a volume/mostly inefficient scorer….despite his progress, he still has games where he goes 6-25 or 2-12 from the field.
The honest truth is that no team in the league would give up a top 10 pick….in order to give up an unprotected pick, a team will have to weigh the opportunity cost of the pick having a shot to be the #1, #2, #3 pick in the draft….there is no way they risk a top 10 let alone potential number 1 or top 5 pick on Monta Ellis….I think a guy with the value of a Danny Granger is the ceiling of what Monta can bring back…and Danny Granger’s value is not what it was 2 years ago. It’s very difficult to find a trade partner for Ellis…the players and assets that a team would have to give up for Monta are either going to be too good or not nearly good enough…there aren’t that many players in the league that have similar value to Monta…how many players are there capable of putting up 20-25 a game, not in their prime years, but flawed in other aspects?
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 19, 2012 8:17 PM PST reply actions
my antawn jamison example ...
is not meant to be a perfect example…antawn is a big and is more efficient than monta but he was traded after years where he put up 24 ppg on bad teams…I believe if my memory serves correctly that a young Antawn brought back a veteran Nick Van Exel….just not the type of value a team would expect when trading their best player yet second/third tier compared to other stars that put up top 10 ppg averages….
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 19, 2012 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
Ima say it again, Monta is the 3rd best SG in the league currently. You don't trade that for an unknown. So many ppl are suffering from serious 'grass is greener' syndrome.
Only, if the Warriors listened to some of GSOM’s finest and actually traded Monta for a pick, we’d have no idea what the ‘other side’ would even look like in the future.
Look:
http://www.warriorsworld.net/2012/01/19/monta-ellis-learning-mark-jackson/#more-5795
Believe in him.
I would hope
that anybody who’s team is consistently playing under .500, would have “grass is greener” syndrome. That’s where the solution to the problem begins.
I wish you could understand how difficult it is to restructure a culture and rebuild a young team with a player who is capable of shooting 30 times in a game(who isn’t efficient), in the starting lineup.
Not only is it difficult to develop a young team, but its hard to win if his only strength is scoring, and he’s having a bad game (under 40%). There are no other ways he can help you win unless he’s scoring effectively. That’s a huge risk, because he’s bound to have many bad nights.
Most players have a 2nd way of effecting the game if they’re not scoring – Something else they do well…Ellis doesn’t.
Building around Monta…You have such a small percentage of guys to target who would actually fit well with a player like Ellis. Getting them, is an entirely different task.. I guess a better question would be, why would you?
Jerry West makes it crucial to own as many draft picks as possible. If you take 10 players and have West evaluate their game’s extensively, I’d bet 8/10 times he’s going to pick out the guy who’s going to have the superior career. If you have a pool of 50 players in the second round, he can finger the top 3.
That’s why it’s so important for the Warriors to have draft picks while he is in the office. We don’t know how long we’re going to have this opportunity…
What good stuff are you on?
Gambino is a mastermind...
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 20, 2012 4:27 PM PST up reply actions
you mean 2nd best player in the game...
it was Kobe, Monta, then Lebron..that’s what Monta said last year right? If someone gives you a top 10 pick for Monta , you take it and ship Monta out on the first Southwest plane you can find before the other team changes its mind…..and it’s not an unknown…you know exactly who what players are going to be available in this upcoming loaded draft.
by CharlieBellAmnestyGhostHauntsLarryLohan on Jan 21, 2012 10:34 PM PST up reply actions
Monta and Beans both have player options for the last year of their contracts.
That means Monta can opt out of his contract after next year and Beans will probably use his last year paying him 9million. If Monta is not happy at the Warriors next year will most likely be his last year as a Warrior. Many do not like Monta on the team but if Curry does not come back 100% and Monta leaves the guard position could be looking very very weak next year after the trade deadline. Lets hope the Warriors find out if Monta wants to stay after next year before the trade deadline so they can hopefully trade him for someone good or some good picks, hopefully both.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 19, 2012 11:33 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
Agree, this makes perfect sense. And same for Curry. Seriously.
Hopefully the front office can also start figuring out the best time to trade Curry’s since he probably won’t be re-signing, unless his ankle keeps failing him, in which case we’d try to trade him anyway. Either way, hopefully we can get some good picks for him as well.
by MonstaEllis on Jan 19, 2012 11:43 PM PST up reply actions
Curry will be a restricted free agent so they should be able to retain him for a few more years, I think, but Curry’s biggest issue is his ankle. If Curry’s ankle does not heal things, after next year, could be even uglier than this year.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 20, 2012 12:20 AM PST up reply actions
You need to do more research before you make claims
such as “Curry won’t be resigning.” He’s a restricted free agent so any offer that he gets from any team the Warriors have the option to match that offer. People need to also chill out on that ankle… It’s an ankle sprain guys, he’s not the “guard version of Oden.”
Chances of Monta opting out might be pretty high
I hadn’t even thought about this. Truth be told, this is probably one of the most important things happening to this franchise in the next two years (Monta’s option). Based on how he’s been playing (and assuming he stays healthy), I’d say the chances are REALLY high that he opts out of the last year of his contract.
I know it’s a new CBA, etc, but $9M for Monta’s production is still probably a steal. Plus, he fills seats and entertains like few other 2-guards in the league. I mean, come on — I’d rather have Monta over Joe Johnson, and JJ is getting paid $18M this year! Yeah, I know, it’s probably the worst contract in the league right now, but still… Take a look at the top-10 scorers in the league (Monta is currently #6, and was on that list last year too); every one of those guys (save Blake Griffin, and Kevin Love…) is a $15M+ guy TODAY. Heck, the TOP 20 guys are all basically $12M+ guys (except Brandon Jennings). I think it’s safe to say that $9M is a bargain for Monta.
On the open market, SOMEONE will pay him more than $9M to be on their team for the 2013-2014 season. To me, he feels like a Kevin Martin contract — which is $12M/year… Which means it makes sense he’d opt out to get market value, and a longer-term deal…unless the Warriors are willing to use their home team “advantage” give him a big-money contract (5 years, +$70M).
…which means we have to figure out what we’re doing with him BEFORE NEXT YEAR’s TRADE DEADLINE. Or this year’s.
This is probably a silent but critical factor influencing the FO’s decision calculus that we’ve been overlooking (until HH’s post).
Monta’s at $11M – it’s Biedrins that’s at $9M.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2012 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
if we extend him a huge contract like that, I will find another sport to follow
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
Me too.
But don’t you think someone will offer him at least 4-years/$50m?
Would you pay him another 5-years/$60m?
I wouldn't re-sign him for any amount
We just need to move on
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
You don’t need a new sport, just a new team! I would suggest the Sixers or the TWolves.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2012 11:25 AM PST up reply actions
I’ve been a season ticket holder for the last 5 years, and gone to almost every home game. I have to say, it’s getting old. Watching other teams on League Pass at home is increasingly a more enjoyable option. And I have awesome seats too.
TWolves are fun to watch these days. Until they screw it up with Love and lose him in free agency. I have to think that Rubio has dramatically increased the odds of Love staying though…
T'Wolves or Nuggets.
Gambino is a mastermind...
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 21, 2012 6:44 PM PST up reply actions
knowing the warriors, they will offer monta the max
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
and then ask to be traded
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 21, 2012 12:03 PM PST up reply actions
big moves will be made on this roster in the next year or so; curry and monta’s contract guarantee that
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 21, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
i wouldn't pay to resign him
even if he came at 5 million a year. He does more to hinder his team than 5 million a year savings is worth.
Leave the kid alone, people
Why would you dare a draft pick, that may or may not turn out, for a stud guard? Hasn’t Monta done enough to earn the right to stay and play? You want to trade a guard? Trade Curry. Let him sit on the other bench.
by Trio on Jan 20, 2012 1:38 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Hasn’t Monta done enough to earn the right to stay and play?
What do you define as “enough”, exactly? I see a team that consistently fails to make the playoffs. What do you see? Why are you ok with that, and ok with that continuing in the future?
by Missing Barry on Jan 20, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
What Monta has done in his time with the Warriors post "We Believe"
has been hindering the growth of this team. He has consistently shot us out of games when he shouldn’t and may care about winning but doesn’t know how to do it. I’m grateful for what he has contributed to this team positively but in terms of an opportunity cost retaining Monta is much worse.
Why trade Curry? He has proven he can play at an efficient, near all star level in only 3 seasons in this league. He has a bigger name in the league (evident from his time with team USA) and not only makes more sense from a basketball standpoint but from an economics standpoint too. He is cheap due to his rookie contract while producing probably close to triple what he’s getting paid. He’s also a RFA which gives the team flexibility in the future regarding him. He’s a floor general who can direct the offense effectively and provide you with a sweet shooting touch (he could easily be part of the 50 40 90 club this season).
Monta has proven he can drive and dish (after like 7 seasons) and shoot with high variability. He can’t lead an offense, he doesn’t know when to stop shooting, and he can’t iso. Curry is more valuable in every way.
I have been thinking about this a while
About trading Monta and Curry and starting over and I think the two teams that are key are the Utah Jazz and Minnesota Timberwolves.
I think in an over all trade this is what could happen(NBA trade machine not working for me at work so I am just looking at the contracts)
UTAH Recieves: Stephen Curry, Brad Miller
Minnesota Receives: Monta Ellis
Golden State Recieves: Michael Beasley, Devin Harris 1st Round Pick From Jazz, Next 1st Round pick from Twolves they can give up
Since I dont have the trade machine they may have to add in some players but that would be the core of the deal. Then if we can find a team that feels there only one or two pieces away we may be able to trade Lee.
Why do you need to trade Curry to "start over?"
He’s young, still on his rookie deal.
Your GOAL when “starting over” is to acquire young, good players. Trading young good players to “start over” doesn’t make any sense at all.
exactly...
do not understand the mentality of people wanting to trade curry…..especially when they say it is to start over/rebuild…Curry is the perfect piece to keep when building a team from the bottom up.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 20, 2012 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
But we get Devin Harris and Michael Beasley!!!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 20, 2012 10:51 AM PST up reply actions
I would go for this but Utah and Minn will not.
Also Minn does not have a first round this year but I would take next years OK
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 20, 2012 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
Why would you go for it? Minnesota is on the rise and Utah (with Curry in the fold) could be as well. There’s a good chance those picks are disposable mid-first-rounders. Beasley is garbage, and Devin Harris is basically an older, flopping, much less likable version of Monta.
For that pile of stuff you’d really give up the younger, much more likable version of Monta and our really young, really cheap franchise player?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 20, 2012 11:00 AM PST up reply actions
The only way I give up Curry
is if it’s for a top-tier player, or kid coming out of college who 99% of the world has signed off as the next big thing. Anything else wouldn’t make any sense.
He’s the purest shooter around these parts since Chris Mullin, and you still don’t really know what you have with Stephen Curry. He’s a rare combination of talent.
So thats your view of Curry
You view Curry as a franchise player, I do not personally. There is at least 8 pgs that I would say our better than Curry.
Overall I dont view Curry as a Top 30 player in the NBA, he is somewhere in the 30-50 mix. And if he is our best player we are doomed to be an average team year in and year out.
The warriors need to be terrible or go all in and that means trading for a superstar. There is no in between when you are trying to get good in the NBA.
So Sleepy Freud what would you do?
by Oracle Junkie on Jan 20, 2012 11:21 AM PST up reply actions
He’s 23 years old. You’re evaluating him as if he’s a finished product, and he isn’t. The ankle has slowed what was appearing to be a breakout year.
And nobody is saying he has to be our best player…don’t really know where you got that. He’s just a valuable piece, he’s cheap, he’s young, and his ceiling is high.
The warriors need to be terrible or go all in and that means trading for a superstar. There is no in between when you are trying to get good in the NBA.
Do you need to trade Curry to be terrible? Curry alone doesn’t get you a superstar. If you trade Monta with him, that team is in the same predicament we are now.
Here is where the Team Monta fans always get confused...
… Team Curry fans that Curry is the best player on this roster, but not the best player on a contending team. He is #2 at best (if he were to further develop) but most likely the 3rd best guy on that contending team. His skill set and talents are perfect complements to other more elite players.
Monta is an amazing 6th man on a contending team.
by warriorsablaze on Jan 20, 2012 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
I really enjoy watching Curry play
The thing is if we are going to keep him, we need to get rid of Ellis. You cannot keep running them two as the backcourt and expect to be successful. The only reason threw up the first trade is because I believed it got us first round picks. And I believe you could convince Minnesota the pick should be unprotected.
I am all for keeping Curry if he is the third guy. He would be a great third guy especially with an actual back to back to basket all star and a great wing.
The question is, how do you get to the point where Curry can be the Third guy, because currently I would argue he is the warriors best player. Your not getting superstars for Ellis or anyone else on the roster except Curry and thats even debatable(due to concerns about his ankle). So there is only two ways to get a superstar at that point which are the draft and free agency. Too bad the warriors will probably lose their draft pick this year. Oh and due to other bad contracts they will not be able to go after anyone particularly good in the offseason.
So how do you get the point where Curry will be the third best player on the warriors?
by Oracle Junkie on Jan 20, 2012 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
lilboots basically expresses my thoughts in the post above yours. The X-factor is the cranky ankle, which definitely complicates the planning process. But assuming the ankle returns to some semblance of health, I wouldn’t let go of Curry for anything but a young, top 15-20 NBA player or a consensus uber-prospect. Last year there were only three NBA players who scored at higher volume and with better efficiency than Curry:
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
Kevin Martin
This with Curry playing much of the season on a cranky ankle. This year, despite playing much of the season on an even crankier ankle, he’s averaging 17.7 pts / 6.5 assists / 4.9 rebounds / 2.1 steals per 36, on .605 true shooting %. There are vanishingly few 23-year olds who bring that kind of all-around production.
• Guys for whom I would definitely trade Curry: Howard, LeBron, Durant, Griffin, Paul, Bynum, Rose
• Borderline: Westbrook, Noah, Rondo, Aldridge, Love
• A little early to say, but definitely intriguing: Rubio, Irving
That’s 7 definites and 7 maybes. I think it’s tough to find anyone else with Curry’s combo of youth and demonstrated high-level NBA production.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 20, 2012 12:22 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i can see everybody on that list except..
Noah….not a fan and definitely woildn;t trade curry for him…to be honest, I’m probably as high on Curry as you can get…I think he can be a superstar and will be in his prime barring health…I wouldn’t do Curry for Westbrook but the others would be hard to turn down right now.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 20, 2012 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
That’s 7 definites and 7 maybes. I think it’s tough to find anyone else with Curry’s combo of youth and demonstrated high-level NBA production.
How about DRon williams? din’t they say he might not re-sign with the Nets? If Binky really left his heart in NYC he might go for that trade and DRon is one of the rare guards with BoomDizzle strength so he might work better with Montay who’s apparently destined to draw his social security check from the dubs.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 20, 2012 2:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I've been thinking about Deron too...
I think the Nets are about to panic. If he leaves as a FA they’re screwed. So they’re going to have to do something. The safest bet is to trade DWill for a player who is still under a rookie contract (Steph), so they can ensure they get a few years out of the new guy and have a chance to keep him too…
If we wait until the All-Star break, and if the Nets continue to suck, I we could probably get DWill for Steph straight up. The Nets would officially go into “rebuilding mode”, and they’d have a great draft pick coming with a solid center (Lopez) and PG (Curry) to build around. Makes total sense.
And on the flip side, DWill and Monta are an intriguing backcourt. Lee could pick-and-pop with Deron… We’d just need a center…
The question is, would DWill re-sign with us?
no wade or deron?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Oh yeah … put Deron under “definitely maybe.” He turns 28 this year, but I guess that’s young enough. Wade just turned 30, and while he’s still playing at a high level, I worry that there might only be 2-3 years left of really good tread on those tires.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 20, 2012 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
We have never said Curry was a franchise player
but he’s good, he’s young, and he’s cheap… thats the whole point of rebuilding… He’s at least top 30 in the NBA if you were to base on stats (but I’m not going to argue this point). Players like Curry are exactly what you need on a team that is rebuilding… Did Utah trade away Paul Millsap when they started their rebuild? Did Denver get rid of Ty Lawson when they traded away Melo? It doesn’t need to be like a completely new roster…
We have never said Curry was a franchise player
I did say he was our franchise player. Such as it is. As you say: good, young, cheap.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 22, 2012 12:48 AM PST up reply actions
He won't be cheap for long
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
For good reason.
Gambino is a mastermind...
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 22, 2012 10:13 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think taking on Monta for a rebuilding team makes any sense at all. Look at where the Warriors are. Notice how we want to trade our players because this method isn’t getting us anywhere? Why would a team like Minnesota or Utah want to trade for our players and essentially take our place in mediocrity?
by Missing Barry on Jan 20, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
The only reason Minnesota comes to mind
Especially for an Ellis trade is they really need a SG and they would be close to a complete team. Thats why I see that is a likely landing spot. I would trade Ellis to them straight up for Beasley, Brad Miller and a future 1st. Hell I would try my best to convince them to give up Williams instead of Beasley, but I dont think there doing that.
They could compete with that roster but they could also suck and make that pick good for the warriors.
Look at the Wolves at that point, they could think there playoff contenders
Ridnour, Rubio(soon to be the starter) Barea
Ellis, Ellington
Johnson, Williams, Webster
Love, Randolph, Tolliver
Darko, Nikola
by Oracle Junkie on Jan 20, 2012 2:02 PM PST up reply actions
That team could develop into a playoff contender. That team isn’t going anywhere meaningful, though. I know if I was the Wolves, building a “complete” team would be close to the bottom of my list of priorities. That’s what you do when you’re already good. For a team like Minnesota, first you gotta put together a core 2-3. Williams, Love and Rubio could be that core, but we have to see how they develop and if they play any D. Trying to complete the team now is just going to make them better and take away their flexibility (essentially locking them into that core).
by Missing Barry on Jan 20, 2012 2:44 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t understand why we don’t bring Ellis off the bench. Start Curry and Rush. Then we have Ellis Klay and Nate off the bench. The coach is preaching defense and I think Rush with his size would be able to guard the two spot better. Then whoever is hot finishes the game.
by 22goose on Jan 20, 2012 2:02 PM PST via mobile reply actions
There is no way Ellis would go for that
In a perfect basketball world that makes great sense. Just like San Antonio used to do with Ginobli even though he was a beast and better than Parker. The problem is convincing Ellis of this fact when he has been the face of the franchise just is not going to happen.
by Oracle Junkie on Jan 20, 2012 2:05 PM PST up reply actions
Starting Klay makes more sense.
He’s not ready yet, but you can already tell he’s going to be a beast (at least I can :). And he has the size we so desperately need.
With Monta coming off the bench, we could rotate combos of Steph/Klay, Monta/Klay and Steph/Monta. That could be a pretty nasty backcourt…
Monta would destroy teams if he came off the bench and played against second units.
Look, the whole reason why a team brings a scorer off the bench is to maximize his role in the offense. For someone like Manu, if he’s playing at the same time as Duncan/Parker, he’s going to get less touches and do less for the offense. So you bring him off the bench and play him as much as possible while those guys are resting to get him as many touches and have him be the biggest part of the offense as possible. Also why Lebron/Wade should never both sit at the same time – you can maximize their touches by having one of them on the court when the other is sitting. I completely and utterly disagree with the idea of doing that with Monta. Monta’s shown the larger his role in the offense, the less efficiently he plays. At least in the past, he was a great complementary guy – he played extremely well letting Baron be the #1 option and dominate the ball while Monta played off of him. Since then, Monta’s also added a legit 3 point shot, which makes him even more of a threat off the ball. However, we’ve seen what happens when Monta tries to do too much and play too large a role in the offense – the inefficient play we’ve seen the last few years. Why do we want to do everything we can to keep putting him in that position? It makes no sense. It doesn’t play to his strengths at all.
by Missing Barry on Jan 21, 2012 11:09 AM PST up reply actions
bring Ellis, Lee, and Dorell off the bench
start Klay, Rush, and Udoh
not kidding either
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
What about to keep him fresh and for defensive purposes? We would be maximizing his role and saving him a little from these max minutes. If we limit his minutes he will play much better imo.
I can get on board with cutting down his minutes. I do think that may make sense.
by Missing Barry on Jan 23, 2012 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Convince Ellis. Lol. His paycheck should convince him. He is not an All-Star and we are not winning as of now. There is no I in team. Any other team he would come off the bench and be an asset. Why not ours? This is Jackson’s team not Ellis.
by 22goose on Jan 20, 2012 2:20 PM PST via mobile reply actions
I don’t like Ellis off the bench at all. Think it’s a terrible fit for him.
by Missing Barry on Jan 20, 2012 2:45 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t like Ellis off the bench at all.
he’s much better on it all the time?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 20, 2012 2:59 PM PST up reply actions
Jerry West best in game?
Where is this myth coming from? Last I heard Miami did not have Jerry West. Chicago did not have Jerry West and neither did Dallas.
True, but the Lakers had West when they got Gasol.
Oh wait, he was working for the Grizzlies then….
Or was he? :)
Is this a troll thread?
Monta would not fetch a lottery pick… Maybe a late first if we’re lucky. We’d have to take salary back too.
"Whoever said WAR is HELL must have been talking about Aaron Rowand" - McCoven faithful
You're joking right?
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
he's not joking
No team is going to give up a lottery pick this season for Monta. Tell me the team and I’ll tell you why they won’t.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
Memphis
Possibly Boston
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
Both are in the lotto right now
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
Boston?
are you kidding? They’re about ready to start re-building. And even as bad as they are playing, they’re still on the verge of an 8th seed.
Memphis would have the 8th seed right now, and I can pretty much guarantee they’ll finish ahead of Utah. And that’s all without Randolph who’s coming back Mar. 2.
Any others?
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
Ray is old
They will look for his replacement, Monta is as good as anyone they could get
lilboots said the Bobcats
the Bucks
New Orleans if they don’t resign Gordon
Maybe the Suns
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
I think the Bucks are in sore need of a draft pick. I’m not sure what their attendance is like, and clearly Monta is an attraction. He would also be in a situation on the defensive end where he isn’t without a safety net for once (Bogut).
But still, Milwaukee needs to rebuild. I could see Stack wanting to stick around for awhile if Monta were to be imported.
PG Jennings
SG Ellis
SF Jackson
PF Illyasova
C Bogut
That’s a decent starting line. Prince Richard off the bench.
They will look for his replacement,
OMG. If you think Monta Ellis is Ray Allen’s replacement. Wow.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
Not saying I did
I said they will look, look. And this years SG’s will be lottery guys so if they get the 8th seed or better they miss out on that. Rondo and Monta would be a good fit as well
And regardless of what you think of Monta, Ainge has proven he will take risks
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
ainge took a risk on a group of unselfish, efficient superstars
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Rondo and Monta wold not be a good fit
because Rondo can’t shoot and Monta is not efficient enough
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
Newsflash
Kyrie Irving – not enough to take the Cavs to the playoffs.
John Wall – not enough to take the Wizards to the playoffs.
Blake Griffin – not enough to take the Clippers to the playoffs.
All three are great players and you don’t blame them for the failures. The problem with our team is not Monta or Steph. Those are the ONLY relatively bright spots. Everybody else is below average at their position.
Lebron/Howard are basically the only one guys who have shown that can carry a team alone. Kobe couldn’t do it despite averaging 36 pts/game in 2005-06.
We need to a third and fourth player that are game changers. Nate Rob is doing well off the bench, but we need to get more out of the starting SF, PF, and/or C. I don’t think I have ever said “thank goodness we have Wright/Lee/Biedrins.” (except D Wright during the heat game).
Trading monta for a Blake Griffin caliber player won’t cut it.
if the playoffs started today
cleveland would be in
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Kyrie Irving, John Wall and Blake Griffin are both very young, whereas Monta is essentially a finished product. Also worth noting that John Wall has basically been terrible so far, so he’s the closest one to Monta.
You’re right that 1 guy can’t make the playoffs, but he isn’t one guy. Really, the way you should be phrasing your comparison is that we don’t blame Curry for not making the playoffs.
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 23, 2012 9:03 PM PST up reply actions
Tyreke Evans
Emelia Okafor
Mike Miller
- all rookies of the year that aren’t guys that push a team over the limit.
Trading Monta for a Marshon Brooks would do little.
We missed our chance to dump David Lee’s salary to have cap room to add a DOMINANT player for monta and steph to assist.
KD couldn’t do it in Seattle. It took Westbrook and a guy like Ibaka before they broke the playoff threshold. Perkins/Harden make them a contender.
Pau Gasol – rookie of the year, nobody knew that memphis had a team till 7 years later (and he was gone).
The list goes on and on.
why are you comparing monta to rookies?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
and i know you're going to say "because the topic is about trading monta for draft picks"
newsflash, you don’t lose the rookies after their rookie season.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
That's exactly why I am comparing him
I am making the point that those guys couldn’t do it alone, just like Monta or Steph can’t do it alone. If we sub one out and replace them with a “rookie star” it is not enough.
so you're saying it would be stupid to trade monta if all we got was someone like KD
just because KD couldn’t lead his team to the playoffs as a rookie? that seems like an awful shortsighted statement.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Not saying its stupid, but its still not enough and we'd still have to go find a cheap SG that is a borderline allstar.
I am just saying if we trade Monta to draft Blake Griffin/John Wall/Tyreke Evans/Kyrie Irving type players, we are still a long shot.
Right now we have two borderline talent allstar players at a great price. Of course if you can get them for cheaper, great, but that is no guarantee they will be great. What if we used the second draft pick to land a guy like Derrick Williams? That would do little for us right now.
We need to fix the parts of the team that not carrying its weight (the whole front court). I don’t even think the draft is necessary to get some good talent there.
we’d still have to go find a cheap SG that is a borderline allstar.
why???
I am just saying if we trade Monta to draft Blake Griffin/John Wall/Tyreke Evans/Kyrie Irving type players, we are still a long shot.
the point of trading for a draft pick is not to win now.
Right now we have two borderline talent allstar players at a great price.
no we don’t
What if we used the second draft pick to land a guy like Derrick Williams? That would do little for us right now.
why do you insist on right now? i’ll repeat, the point of trading for a draft pick is to win the in future, not right away.
We need to fix the parts of the team that not carrying its weight (the whole front court). I don’t even think the draft is necessary to get some good talent there.
because good cheap big men grow on trees?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Right now we are arguably 1 piece away from a SOLID starting line up with a 6th man spark
We don’t need a cheap big man. We can take an expensive big man. We were gonna offer Chandler $60M+. We were gonna offer Deandre Jordon $43M.
The draft is not the only way to turn a team around. Every year, everybody awaits the draft to get turned around.
The celtics did it in 1 year. The Heat did it in 1 year. The Lakers did it in 1 year. It takes living in an attractive area and money. We live in the greatest city on earth and the best fans and have owners who will fork out the cash if the opportunity comes, which is all it took for those three teams.
If we put it all on the draft, we are screwed unless we draft Michael Jordon, Kobe Bryant, Lebron James, or Dwight Howard.
That’s how its done unless we happen to land KD (youngest scoring champ ever), Westbrook, Ibaka, AND Harden in a three year span. Arguably the best 3 consecutive/complimentary draft years ever. And even if that does happen, the Warriors don’t make the playoffs until 2015.
Well, let’s look back on those situations you brought up. The Celtics did it with a.) home grown Paul Pierce. b.) Al Jefferson – young talent they traded away c.) High draft pick. Heat did it by having a good salary situation and a home run draft pick recruit two other stars. Lakers…well, we aren’t the Lakers.
Disagree on the us being one piece away. Adding a solid starter doesn’t give us a winning core. Your top 3 players are much more important than the rest of the team combined. With our core right now, we’re nowhere close to contending for anything but the last couple playoff spots and a first round exit.
by Missing Barry on Jan 23, 2012 5:41 PM PST up reply actions
if Curry and Ellis aren't top 5 at their position in the Western Conference, who is?
You are such a downer that you just look to criticize criticize criticize. There are good things happening here. Look what the Warriors have done for 15 years relying on the draft to save them.
And yes. I want to win now.
WC PG’s:
Nash
Paul
Deron
Lowry
Lawson
Conley
Westbrook
Parker
Miller
The first 3 are better than Curry. The rest are debatable, but it’s definitely no shoo-in that Curry’s top 5 in the WC.
Kobe
Gordon
Terry
Harden
Martin
Afflalo
Manu
Not a given Monta’s top 5, either. (Unrelated note – for wing being the easiest position to fill, it’s surprising how little top SG talent there is in the league right now – maybe it’s harder to stand out as a SG because the bottom tier talent level is so high?)
Now, a little extra math: 5 positions, top 5 for each = 25 total players. 15 teams in the WC. 25/15 = 1.6666666666667 top 5 players per position. Having two guys that are questionably top 5 isn’t too impressive, especially since if either of them are top 5, it’s closer to 5 than 1, and our team still sucks on D. Top talent is what wins in the NBA. We have a long ways to go to get there.
by Missing Barry on Jan 23, 2012 5:51 PM PST up reply actions
blasphemy
monta scores more ppg than most of those SG’s, so that means he’s better than them ;)
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
sidenote
i’d take tony allen, matthews, and batum over monta as well
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
is NJ in the western conference now ?
or is ‘Deron’ not the guy who was traded from UT to NJ ?
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
I like the 1.6666667 number.
I think if our owners are willing to drop $60 M on a guy like Chandler, we could use that type of player to land another top 5 in conference player. That would make 3 solid pieces. Lee is prob top 10, from synergy with a big man in the post, he could be bumped higher. That is a start and hopefully enough to convince a guy like Curry to stay.
Even if Curry isn’t the cornerstone to build on, we can’t just lose him to free agency.
Fans want wins now and so do the players.
Well, it also took KD developing into a much better player…which he did. I agree with the general point that the real problem isn’t so much Monta or Steph as the fact that they’re our best players – that’s not a good situation. However, the most important thing for us to do is find someone significantly better than either of them, which probably means trading at least one of them. We need to look to build as talented a core of ~3 players as possible. We’ll worry about depth and role players later.
by Missing Barry on Jan 23, 2012 5:37 PM PST up reply actions
The warriors really neeed to tank and play young guys
They are they stuck in basketball hell, with the 25-35 win level team and not much cap space to work with. I am down for trading Ellis for draft picks and cap space. I am currently enjoying the game right now and messing around on the NBA trade machine. I think I have found a three team trade that makes sense for everybody.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=76nnqdz
The deal is between the Celtics, Clippers and the Warriors.
Celtics receive David Lee, Monta Ellis, Mo Williams
Clippers receive Ray Allen, Dorrell Wright
Warriors receive Kevin Garnett, Randy Foye, Avery Bradley and Bostons 1st round pick
Why the Celtics do this: They have a ton of money coming off the books this off season but they are way over the cap currently so they can’t really go after any big stars. They will stay competitive and have a pretty good team. They turn there old guys into some guys in their prime.
Why the Clippers do this: This makes them instant title contenders for this year. The Clippers could still use another back up big, but there team would be right there .
Why the warriors do this: It allows the warriors financial flexibility and to start the young guys. Being able to Start Curry, Thompson, Rush, Garnett and Beidrins. Plus with Garnett there, he might actually light a fire into Beidrins. It almost assures that the warriors are right there with the worst teams in the league which will allow them to keep their pick. The pick would probably be Top 5. Then you build your team around Curry, top 5 pick and the warriors go after free agent x. Hopefully free agent X is Howard, but chances that happen are slim, but one can hope.
They will stay competitive and have a pretty good team
Or, alternatively, they will look a lot like the current Warriors. That’s not a good thing.
by Missing Barry on Jan 23, 2012 11:54 PM PST up reply actions
I disagree with that
Rondo is ball dominant and sets his teammates up extremely well, he is also an excellent defender(something Curry is not) . Monta would play off the ball and Rondo would create for him. Pierce is still a talented basketball player and smart with the ball. Lee would be playing next to J. Oneal which would help some of his defensive shortcomings. The first two guys off the bench would be Mo Williams and Brandon Bass who I would argue are better than Nate Robinson and Ekpe Udoh. Then it would be Pietrus for Boston who I would argue is a similarly talented player to Rush. So no, I do not think they would be like the Warriors East(that title will always be held by the Wizards) they will in fact be a pretty good team.
by Oracle Junkie on Jan 24, 2012 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
Meh, Jermaine Oneal is about as reliable as the current version of Kwame Brown, Mo Williams is…well, Mo Williams. David Lee still can’t play D and Rondo still can’t score, and they lose their best player, KG. That’s not a team that scares me even a little bit.
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2012 12:20 PM PST up reply actions
Rondo is their best player
KG used to be there best player, but knee injuries have slowed him down. He still has the mid range shot, and his fade away. Other than that though he can’t jump as high, and doesn’t rebound nearly as well as he used to. His defense while still good is not the defense that made him a Hall of Famer. He can still be a useful starter for maybe a year or two after this season.
Rondo on the other hand, is one of the best passers for his position and is the best rebounder at his position. He is a bad shooter, but he can scpre, he averages 15 a game on 51% percent shooting. It is because he creates one man fast breaks and can penetrate. He is one of the top defenders at his position also. He is their best player.
by Oracle Junkie on Jan 24, 2012 2:22 PM PST up reply actions
I'd go with Pierce as the best player on the C's
Rondo is younger sure, but if you want to win now, I’d take Paul Pierce over Rondo
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 24, 2012 2:28 PM PST up reply actions
Disagree on KG’s defense. Dude is still beastly. Still can shoot and pass on offense, so he’s still useful, even if he can’t create for himself anymore. As for Rondo’s scoring…sample size. Dude’s a 12 points per 36 career scorer on 52% TS%. I feel those pretty accurately reflect his skill, as he doesn’t have any clear positive trend in that regard over his career.
by Missing Barry on Jan 24, 2012 3:45 PM PST up reply actions
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