Study Shows Shooting Early in Shot Clock Leads to More Wins
University of Minnesota Study that sampled over 5,000 NBA games to draw its conclusion.
Our offese is slowed way down, we're not averaging 100 ppg despite the fact that we have Curry, Thompson. Wright, Ellis, Lee, Robinson and Rush.
6-11 to show for it. Hopefully Mark Jackson reads this.
4 months ago
myk
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Even if he read it he wouldn't care
Not his style , he does what he does
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
and if he does what he does resulting in this team not improving he will do what he does announcing games again.
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Jan 27, 2012 12:48 PM PST up reply actions
Bingo!
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
Eh.
Click through a couple of links. It’s really not hard to see what this is measuring.
First of all, when the opposing defense isn’t giving up good shots, you still take shots … you just take them late. So the correlation may be backwards: you take shots late in the shot clock BECAUSE you’re having trouble scoring.
Whereas when you take a shot early, it’s usually because you have a good shot since you have the option of not shooting, which you don’t have later.
Second, are they controlling for fast break points?
I could poke some more holes in this, but I have a bad feeling people are going to read way too much into this. In fact, looking at what’s already been written, I can see that people are already reading too much into it.
sigh.
Sometimes poorly-understood science is as bad as the absence of science.
by Ronaldinho on Jan 27, 2012 12:50 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, that is one of my questions too. Are they counting shots in transition in this study? If a team has a 2 on 1 in transition, they are obviously going to shoot a higher percentage than they are in a set offense.
Just take at the Warriors the last several years. They were a horrible defense and teams never had to use up the shot clock on them. Teams could get an easy lay up within the first 5-10 seconds of the clock. Bad defenses encourage teams to shoot early and good defenses make you work for it and force you to shoot later. It does seem to be somewhat backwards.
I would encourage you to go to APBR and discuss the paper with him
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Agreed
The real key to all this is getting good shots. Good shots, generally come from good passing/ball movement/playmaking. Be it an individual or a team.
Are nash’s suns (prime years) any more effective than Boston’s last 3 with rondo + big 3?
The idea that a certain pace is ‘better’ is short-sided. There’s more than one way to play effective bball. Typically your personnel dictates.
And to take it a step further
I think it’s basically a hindsight bias type of logic.
Teams with less talent, have a harder time getting good shots, particially in half court. It’s easier to get a good shot in transition. Transition is typically early in the shot clock.
Pushing the tempo (assuming your team isn’t 5 kaman-style athletes) is typically best way to try and overcome a talent gap, which majority of league.
I’m not sure what to make of this – I can’t even find the study itself to look at what’s really being studied here.
Researchers at the University of Minnesota broke down data from close to 5,000 NBA games over four different seasons, and they determined that teams that shot the ball earlier during the 24-second shot clock had much more success. The percentage of made baskets went down by nearly 10 percent as the shot clock wound down, according to the Toronto Star.
The research shows that NBA teams would likely up their average points per game by a difference of 4.5 points. Skinner feels that the average team getting an extra 4.5 points per game would be worth more than 10 wins a season, according to Chicago’s Northwestern University.
Without seeing their actual data/methodology, that seems like that could be a serious jump in conclusions that just aren’t supported by the data. I’m skeptical right now, but definitely curious to read the paper myself.
the guy posts at APBR
http://www.apbr.org/metrics/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7866
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
follow the link to see the paper
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Am I missing the link or something? I searched and all I found were links to other articles that say basically the exact same thing.
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2012 3:07 PM PST up reply actions
click where he says "here"
anyway, here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0030776
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Ah, just found it and read it. Just skimmed it, but I like the paper itself a lot more than the discussion of it. I don’t see any invalid conclusions in the paper – in the article, I think a lot of the potential conclusions they talk about are dicey without more evidence to support them.
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2012 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
that's what happens when your research gets filtered through the media
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Yeah I know, I’ve had research published in the media, too. ;)
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2012 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
Also, as regards to the Warriors:
While it’s true we’re scoring 5 pts less/100 possessions, it’s worth noting that last season we ranked 12th in the league in points/100 possession …
… and this year we’re ranked 14th.
In other words, it seems likely that the biggest part of the drop is not because of a dramatic change in offensive philosophy, but rather because offenses are down league-wide this year, in a fairly substantial way. (I have to assume because of the lockout and compressed schedule).
When you then consider that we’re very close to the same position in the league in total offense, despite being without our best offensive player for most of the season so far, you realize that maybe it’s a mistake to jump to conclusions about the success or failure of Jackson’s offensive philosophy just yet.
It's just one guy, not a team of researchers
His name is Brian Skinner. Very, very bright guy.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Now that I’ve read it – I do think it’s an interesting paper and a good thought experiment. Definitely a topic worth thinking about. That said, I don’t really buy into a theoretical model of optimal shot clock usage, at least not without a whole lot more supporting evidence that it does a good job reflecting reality. It wouldn’t surprise me if teams were somewhat off in their usage of the shot clock, but I’m very skeptical it’s close to the full 4.5 points per (was it game or 100 possessions). I suspect a lot of that difference comes from realities not taken into account in the model (I have a few in mind, but it could potentially be anything we can think of).
by Missing Barry on Jan 27, 2012 3:42 PM PST up reply actions
Whatever the study shows
With our smaller team and relatively good depth, we should be speeding up the pace and tiring the other team out. Slowing it down just exposes that we are not a good half court team. Hopefully returning to a faster pace would limit boneheaded mistakes through experience and make the games more exciting if nothing else.
However, forget I said this Tank Commander Mark Jackson. Slow it down. Let teams take advantage of our lack of size and rebounding. Expose our bad passing in a half court game. Anthony Davis, Micheal Gilchrist, Jeremy Lam, Perry Jones here we come.
Study shows shooting early in shot clock LEADS TO more wins.
No, and I doubt that is what the study shows.
Study shows shooting early in shot clock IS CORRELATED WITH more wins.
Sure.
Actually it doesn’t do any sort of correlation like that. What the study does is construct a theoretical model for when the optimal time in the shot clock to take a shot is (average time that is, obviously not every observation will fit this average), based on observed shooting percentages. Basically, they look at the scoring efficiency of teams shooting earlier in the shot clock (but not so early as to be a transition bucket), and then later in the shot clock, and determine the gap is larger than their model says it should be – suggesting teams should shoot more often early in the clock.
by Missing Barry on Jan 29, 2012 2:24 AM PST up reply actions
I put some more data below
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Study shows shooting early in shot clock LEADS TO more wins.
or that winning teams can get good shots earlier in the clock? or that better players are less patient and wanna get to the night clubs sooner?
It really depends on your definition of early or late on the clock and are you shooting earlier or later because that’s your style or because the defense is giving you those opportunities?
I think good teams aim for getting a good shot where ever in the clock it falls and take the fast break if it’s available and try to avoid the clock running down whenever possible.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 28, 2012 10:40 AM PST reply actions
I have a new study
My study shows winning teams have more black players than white ones. I studied over 50000 NBA games and found it true.
Therefor if we bench lee, biedrins and half of steph for Tyler, Barron and Nate we should win more
I got some more data from Brian Skinner (the author of the article)
Here is shots vs. time on the shot clock (1 second means 1 second left on shot clock and these are “dead ball” possessions):

Here is points per shot (PPS) vs. time:

You can see that shots are normally distributed around 10 seconds remaining on shot clock, and PPS decreases quite linearly starting at about 8-9 seconds elapsed.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Hey, can you look the distribution for individual teams, rather than the NBA as a whole? I would think there’s a chance the bell shaped curve may just reflect the distribution of different teams styles, which isn’t relevant to any given teams decision of when to shoot….so I’m just curious what it would look like for different individual teams.
by Missing Barry on Jan 30, 2012 10:18 PM PST up reply actions






















