Recap #6: Golden State Warriors 95, San Antonio Spurs 101- 27 straight losses at the River Walk
by Atma Brother ONE on Jan 4, 2012 9:27 PM PST
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Some thoughts after the jump!
Well the Warriors had a very predictable loss tonight. I can't say the loss is all that unexpected or even disappointing when you take a step back. The Warriors simply cannot beat Tim Duncan's Snores in San Antonio. It's one of those facts of hoop life.
Here's what does disappoint me though:
- Stephen Curry's ankle. You just have to feel for the man.
- 4th quarter collapse. This was a close game where the Warriors led most of the way, but down the stretch they were unclutch. 4th quarter: Warriors 20, Spurs 31. A Warriors loss was expected, but a 4th quarter collapse was not.
- Dorell Wright's shooting. So far this season there isn't much right about DWright's FG%. Something is definitely wrong here. Dorell is a good NBA player and his 30% shooting through 6 games is just bizarre. 0 for 2 tonight? Just bizarre. This is a guy who broke the Warriors franchise record for most made 3-pointers last season.
- David Lee's low FG% is also odd. Lee is a career 54.5% FG scorer, but this season he's shooting about 10% worse.
- All of the offseason hype about Mark Jackson's winning defensive focus is hollow if the team is going to drop to being a bad team on offense. Think any of Wright and Lee's FG% woes fall on him?
- Props to Monta Ellis for the big scoring and hustle tonight. A disappointing prediction- sick of the losing Monta publicly demands a trade before the Warriors get a good trade offer for him. Check right around the 2012 NBA trade deadline on that one.
- Through the first 6 games of the season Mark Jackson has done very little to prove that he's NBA head coaching material.
Given the start of the Mark Jackson-era with the Warriors I think we'll all be relieved come the 2012 NBA Lottery. Tonight's award goes to lucky number...
(pic via www.massmailsoftware.com)
I think you all know why...
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I’m still waiting for Udoh’s improvement to translate into results. So far .471 TS%, 12.2% TRB%.
Still not even mediocre as a scorer, and still mediocre at rebounding. Regressed thus far as a shotblocker, but at least he doesn’t turn the ball over. Still only 6 games, but not an encouraging start.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
I guess Klay will start. Let's see if he can shoot himself out of his slump!
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
or
You know what would make a good story? Something about a clown who makes people happy, but inside he's real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea.
Haven't watched college ball in a while.
I got the impression that Jeremy Lamb >> Harrison Barnes as far as wing prospects go. Barnes is bigger though, and Lamb is a SG. I just think Lamb fits the pro game better while Barnes has that passive attitude that plagues Marvin Williams and to a lesser extent LBJ.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
Barnes is said to have the work ethic of a Kobe however…..
http://www.youtube.com/user/HANDSOMElifeOFswing - Cal Football Highlights+ More Bay area sports
by 4Ever Golden on Jan 5, 2012 12:38 AM PST up reply actions
Barnes is said to have the work ethic of a Kobe however…..
in the gym or chasin women?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2012 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
Through the first 6 games of the season Mark Jackson has done very little to prove that he’s NBA head coaching material.
I am no Mark Jackson apologist but, his team isn’t very good. At least they haven’t been performing very good through 6 games. Lee and Monta are both struggling out the gate and Curry can’t stay healthy or out of foul trouble.
The rest of the team is dreck. Time to start the tank countdown. Can’t blame coach too much for a talentless roster.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
AB1
Is one of the most partial posters on the site. I don’t even read his posts much anymore outside of the WW lol.
"I'm not a big vegetable guy'' he says. -Tim Lincecum
by ejdacanay on Jan 4, 2012 9:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
"You don't need to be an Adonis to be a good pro player...
…but Lee looks like he’s lived in zero gravity his whole life"
-the Bimbo Coles Experience
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 4, 2012 11:57 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
+3
His title is not, “Warriors keep it close in S.A.,” which is actually an accomplishment even for a lot of good teams. He says, “27 straight losses.” Then he says Mark Jackson has done VERY little to prove he’s NBA coaching material. Not little but VERY little. Never mind that through 6 games, our defense is average instead of the bottom of the league. Never mind that Monta’s assists are way up. He’s done VERY little.
Never mind that his JOB is to keep us entertained and interested. Instead, he just dumps on everyone based on his pessimism and pent up rage at being a fan of a losing team.
I'm the soul brotha' like no other!
+4
he just dumps on everyone based on his pessimism and pent up rage at being a fan of a losing team.
He’s smarter than that, he’s just doing it too be contrary and he thinks it will generate more “hits”.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Jan 5, 2012 6:39 AM PST up reply actions
Then he says Mark Jackson has done VERY little to prove he’s NBA coaching material. Not little but VERY little.
Depends on what you consider little or very little? Do you consider 6 games a lot? Most coaches have more than a 6 game track record , but most coaches don’t get hired to be head coach without some actual coaching experience.So I gotta go with Atma on this one. If we are playing better after 2 seasons with Jackson as head coach then we can legitimately say he has done more than a little.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2012 9:49 AM PST up reply actions
If that’s what he meant, he’d say that it’s only been 6 games. Instead, he was taking potshots at someone who has done fairly well so far, IMO.
I'm the soul brotha' like no other!
If that’s what he meant, he’d say that it’s only been 6 games.
some things are obviously implied.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2012 1:21 PM PST up reply actions
Kentoe, I totally agree. I was against his hiring because we needed an experienced coach. However, he is doing all he can,
with what he has! In fact, he is working wonders with the Curry-Monta backcourt (if Curry can recover, and stay healthy). Frankly, this team is weaker than what we had when we ended last season. If Jackson had those pieces (he was hired with those pieces), we may have been at .500 ball right now. The FO has really screwed this team up, and, with a bit of bad luck (Curry), we have nothing on the bench (outscored 31-20, last night in nearly 50 minutes of total play). Heck, Reggie would have put 20 points on the board all by himself in his second full NBA season!). We are headed for the cellar, and if we end above that, it will probably be because of Mark Jackson’s efforts!
Our FO disagrees with you!
they believed last year’s team was playoff-quality…this year too! And, unfortunately, regardless of how well/poorly MJ coaches this year, if the Warriors struggle to the tune of 20-25 wins, he will be labeled as a mediocre coach, which is not good for his career to start.
unless you have some insider insight, I'd caution you to temper what you know about the actual thinking in the FO against the fact that they seem to be an entertainment-oriented group
they believed last year’s team was playoff-quality…this year too!
first of all, they are wrong on both counts.
And more importantly, when you say “playoff quality” you do realize that even in the rosiest of scenarios, we are fighting tooth and nail for the 8th seed
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 12:25 PM PST up reply actions
the FO feelings are facts that were quotes by
GM riley in the Mercury and Chronicle amidst the Smart firing. Riley said they should have made the playoffs last year, and that was partly why they let Smart go. He has also said their expectation is to make the playoffs this year because they feel they have a playoff team. Like you, I believe they are wrong. As I’ve said before, if they don’t make the playoffs — again — by Riley’s logic, he should fire himself.
now you're talkin'!!
if they don’t make the playoffs — again — by Riley’s logic, he should fire himself.
the last cut to excise the Cohan era
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Lucky number 7!
I’m all in for lucky number 7…after Curry went down, all I could think about was lucky number 7….shut him down, trade Monta his stock will never be higher, he is playing amazingly and sit back and watch the kiddies grow as we wait for lucky number 7.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 4, 2012 9:55 PM PST reply actions
How trading Monta has anything to do with number 7?
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:11 PM PST up reply actions
makes us worst in the short term if we trade him for young guys/draft picks
..more likeley to keep our pick without him
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 4, 2012 10:25 PM PST up reply actions
I am pretty sure we can get to keep our pick without trading Monta.
No need to trade Monta. with Curry out, bottom 7 is 99.999% sure thing.
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:43 PM PST up reply actions
Unfortunately draft picks dont seem to be our strength either.
trade him for young guys/draft picks
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 5, 2012 9:05 AM PST up reply actions
Lucky number 7!
that’s the number of ankle sprains Binky has had so not so lucky is it?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
Monta should have been WW , I care not for the humor
Also Mark Jackson has squeezed some decent defense out of this team, better rebounding and has done a decent job in rotations outside of not playing Andris and overplaying Klay. He has a bad roster to work with
RIP Al Davis
well, because Klay plays better than F-ing DWright
…. it makes sense to me.
As far as playing Brown more late in the game,… I think it is because we are loosing and we need more offense out of the big than the defense.
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:12 PM PST up reply actions
No
Klay still isn’t better then DW. DW may not score at all but he rebounds most of the time and doesn’t make the stupid plays Klay does.
And Andris = Kwame on offense, Kwame is just out there longer so he gets more looks.
RIP Al Davis
DWright has worst D than Klay
How many open 3s Dwright left the guy wide open, especially late in the game for the past 3~4 games? It is actually too many that I lost counts.
Plus, not shooting is one thing, DWright has been making passes that goes no where to help our offense.
Klay > DWright for sure. Klay is actually faster on D to close-in and he is long a tall. Klay at least stay in ground. DWright has been jumping on other’s pump fakes to allow easy pts.
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:47 PM PST up reply actions
DWright has worst D than Klay
So many things wrong with the above sentence
Klay has been a liability in ALL phases of the game, DW has just been invisible on offense
RIP Al Davis
watch closely when DWright does the defense then you know what I mean
seriously… even tonight’s game. DWright’s D was so bad…
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 11:03 PM PST up reply actions
Where was the other Wright brother?
I thought he did ok last time we saw him
"You don't need to be an Adonis to be a good pro player...
…but Lee looks like he’s lived in zero gravity his whole life"
-the Bimbo Coles Experience
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 4, 2012 11:58 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Why is Andris not out there a bit more? Anyone know?
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 5, 2012 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
rolled his ankle
not sure when (I missed it, even after re-watching the quarter)
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
cause Klay plays better than F-ing DWright
i’ll believe that when Klank breaks DoorL’s 3’s made in a season record.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 10:36 PM PST up reply actions
I thought Klay already broke DWright's 3's record this season?
:-)
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:48 PM PST up reply actions
I thought Klay already broke DWright's 3's record this season?
the made record , not the missed record :>)
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 10:51 PM PST up reply actions
just checked. Klay wins both made and missed
Klay made 6 and missed 16
Dwright made 3 missed 21
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:58 PM PST up reply actions
so Klay 27% on 3s, Dwright 12% on 3s
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 11:01 PM PST up reply actions
Klay made 6 and missed 16
ok, he’s just gotta make 188 more to break DoorL’s 194 record set last year and 3 more to break Wright’s one game record of 9.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 11:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
We don't look at the past. He doesn't help the team NOW
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 11:06 PM PST up reply actions
As of right now Kyle Lowry is better then DWill
Bynum is the 2nd best big in the NBA
Indiana > Boston
RIP Al Davis
It's just short sighted
Klay has been awful, at least DW has the ability to be good, we haven’t seen as much with Klay
RIP Al Davis
We don't look at the past.
Records are the past, a “future” record is just BS till it happens
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 11:23 PM PST up reply actions
Re: we don't look at the past
Then why do we have memories again?
"You don't need to be an Adonis to be a good pro player...
…but Lee looks like he’s lived in zero gravity his whole life"
-the Bimbo Coles Experience
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 12:04 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Yep, he broke the 3 pt record with a green light from Smart, 2d most minutes on the team, and the 4th-best, 3pt efficiency on the team!
While Reggie rode the bench. That was Keith Smart….
how i want to be in the FO office tomorrow and in the future...should get interesting.
curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.
Nate is our future
thought he was everyone’s past?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 10:37 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, but Nate is still Warriors future
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 10:49 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, but Nate is still Warriors future
is this that Mayan calendar thing coming true?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 10:53 PM PST up reply actions
he is the second coming of baron davis.
curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.
by bimmercirem3 on Jan 4, 2012 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
he is the second coming of baron davis.
the future is here, everything has shrunk. Less chips a in a bag, less beef on the boom dizzle? Hope the opposing 2 guards are smaller too?
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 11:09 PM PST up reply actions
Mark Jackson said this is a no excuse team
been small is not an excuse. No talent is not an excuse.
by ILoveWarriorsGirls on Jan 4, 2012 11:24 PM PST up reply actions
Mark Jackson said this is a no excuse team
physics don’t know who mark jackson is though.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 11:29 PM PST up reply actions
mark jackson invented physics and changed one rule. Warriors hereby do not play with the rules of physics
but by the rules of mark jacksonian non-excusie french tone
curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.
by bimmercirem3 on Jan 4, 2012 11:34 PM PST up reply actions
OK, i'll bite
What the heck does 7 refer to?
The draft pick we traded to the Nets is top-7 protected
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
by doubleteapot on Jan 4, 2012 10:24 PM PST up reply actions
So the 7th pick is the worse possible pick of this summer
because that’s the lowest we can pick, AND we still have to trade the pick to whoever owns it (I think it’s the Jazz now) NEXT summer as well.
Now that’s a pretty cynical Warrior Wonder for tonight.
by IQofaWarrior on Jan 4, 2012 10:32 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, but if we pick 7th, we’ll have to go through the same song and dance next year or the year after.
But if we can somehow manage to suck for the next three years, all we’ll have to give up is two second-rounders!
There will be no extra point!
If we can “somehow” manage to suck? Oh, however will we manage it? Lol. FML.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
Ha, yeah. Sucking isn’t hard for us, but truly sucking — like, bottom 5 in the league sucking — does seem to be. I’d say our inability/disinclination to shoot the moon when we’re bad is one of our biggest shortcomings over the last 20 years.
On the “bright” side, Curry being shelved for an extended period could be a big help in the moon-shooting department…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 5, 2012 11:26 AM PST up reply actions
bottom 5
yeah, it would be a struggle to be this bad:
Raptors
Wizards
Cleveland
Nyets
…and then Dubs? ewwwwww
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Whoa
Jazz receive the Warriors’ 2012 first-round pick, via Nets (Marcus Williams trade) (top 7 protected in 2012 and 2013, top 6 protected in 2014. If not received by 2014, Jazz will instead receive Warriors’ 2014 and 2016 second round picks)
by IQofaWarrior on Jan 4, 2012 10:33 PM PST up reply actions
One of the more worthless transactions in recent Warrior history
Ultra-projectable
I feel like I want to rage. Right now.
I would say EVER!
Worse than the Webber debacle.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Jan 5, 2012 6:44 AM PST up reply actions
The Ghost of Marcus Williams still haunts us
extrabaggs
"Just your typical Giants scoring rally: A faceburger on the basepaths, two errors from the second baseman and a bases-loaded balk."
by Badly Browned on Jan 5, 2012 12:29 AM PST up reply actions
wht did Nelson ever play him? and when he did Nelson would yell at him??
i don’t remember Nelson ever yelling at any other bad W’s players
by JimPunkrockford on Jan 5, 2012 1:37 AM PST up reply actions
re: #7
Problem with finishing with the 7th-worst record is that it still leaves a 23% chance that someone behind us leapfrogs us into the lottery, thereby giving us a #8 pick that we instantly have to forfeit.
Knowing our luck, I think we gotta shoot for the bottom 5 just to be sure…
There will be no extra point!
on the other hand, if we're good enough to finish on the outside of the bottom 7
we still have a chance to get in
Think any of Wright and Lee's FG% woes fall on him?
Only in that he doesn’t force DoorL to take more than 2 shots to get his game going. Someone has messed with his head and coach needs to fix it.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 4, 2012 10:34 PM PST reply actions
im sorry but tanking this season is not worth it.
1 – makes FA hang up on riley. riley gets heartbroken.
2 – team will reasonably upset and distraught.
3 – means a given up ownership and team. chemistry between curry and monta will rock i presume.
what i think will happen – huge trade either favoring us or slightly upgrading spots (dorell)
curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.
What could we deal for a slight upgrade?
The way this team is designed we can make salary dumps or a big splash
RIP Al Davis
by dubzfan on Jan 5, 2012 12:56 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
exactly.
the good thing about our roster is that we have many trade pieces we can use and it is perfect for a huge overhaul trade. Like blockbuster big. Contracts besides DLee are favorable in all terms. Most of contracts are 1 year expiring or 2 years. They are young with talent, and also some veteran players. As of now, we just don’t mesh well.
I would love to see a blockbuster trade happen sooner than later.
curry & iggy TEAM USA buddies.
Added
MT2 ponders Curry’s ankle. Highlights by gumbywithpokey.
Curry and Ellis were playing so good together too..
Darn it Curry!
GSW '12 CHAMPS!
i'm a bit out of touch here....i got an xbox for xmas, has the season started?
but i kid.
so i was a little surprised by how high everyone here was on Klay when they drafted him. he was off my radar, i guess i didn’t watch too much Pac 10 last year. so are people souring or is the feeling “give the kid some time”? he sure looks tall out there. and got a couple of rebounds.
since this is the same team as last years, just with a worse bench, is anyone surprised that the team is terrible? is the bench worse? seem like it can’t score like last years or year before’s.
i don’t want a new Barron. the We Believe team was a bunch of thugs. it’s ok for you guys living in the bay but for the rest of us it was embarrassing.
this team seem like “punchers chance” team. if they shoot lights out they can beat a good team but most night they won’t and most nights they will lose.
i must say my new xbox centric life make the pain much less. bring the Hornets to SJ!
Surprised no one is calling for
Monta to be traded or calling him overrated after needing 30 shot attempts and getting to the line just 4 times to score 38 pts…Cause, clearly, he hurts the team when he’s on the floor…I don’t want to try and speculate how much we lose by without Monta on the floor this game.
c'mon, really?
this was arguably one of Monta’s best games
and I know it is a noisy stat, but since we are pulling one-game samples anyways, I will point out that the team played exactly even with the Spurs score when Monta was on the court, hardly a dominant effect on the overall score
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
Monta shouldn't be knocked
because his TEAM played evenly with the other TEAM despite his INDIVIDUAL contributions. Monta shot a better % from 2pt range, 3pt range, and FT than the rest of his TEAM. When Jordan was scoring 50 a game and losing games, does that minimize his “dominance”? No, it just means he was playing a much better team.
ok, I see now you are just trolling
look at this list of dudes who have scored 40 points or more
sure there are some big names on that list, but there’s also a bunch of other guys. Lots of points does not equal good overall player (btw, did you know that Eddy Curry has had a 40 point game? Cuttino Mobley?).
Cause, clearly, he hurts the team when he’s on the floor
dude, so if plus minus is out the window, what exactly is your objective measure of a players impact? Points scored? (without consideration of how many shots it took to get there?)
Yeah, I agree that Monta was dominant last night…
dropping this line of conversation, because it has already been done a gazillion times
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 1:29 PM PST up reply actions
not good enough
objective measure
It’s the internet, so you are perfectly entitled to opinions. But if you want to actually have some sort of meaningful conversation (beyond “nyuh-uhh” and “uhh-huh”) we kinda need something a little more….robust
because I hate to break it to you, but most of the folks labeled as stats geeks around here seem to watch a ton of bball
first-hand observations count, but you need (at least in my opinion) something else to lean on if you want to hold an actual debate on anything that is disputed
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 2:33 PM PST up reply actions
I agree
Especially in basketball, observation can lead you to believe Nate Robinson is an All-Star caliber player. Stats can do the same thing, as I said with guys like Ricky Davis. Both need to be incorporated. How to scale each of them is open to debate.
I never said scoring 40 pts
or scoring lots of points (especially on bad teams) means you are a good player and/or valuable, which are two different concepts. See Ricky Davis as a prime example. Talented player who scored 25 pts a game once upon a time for bad teams but was never very valuable. He wasn’t that good either.
I think pt differential matters, just not as much as you might think. Pt differential (can) knock an individual player for what his 4 teammates are doing on the floor with him and what his 5 teammates are doing without him. That’s not even close to encompassing everything one needs to know about how “good” said player his value (which is always an elusive thing to empirically, or otherwise, discover).
Whether Monta taks 30 shots, 15 shots, or 80 shots, if he makes half of them he is a unique offensive asset.
My previous comment was a response to you slighting Monta with the idea that, since the Spurs and Dubs scored equally even while Monta was on the floor playing well, that somehow it is a knock on Monta. No, it’s a knock on the Warriors.
ok
sorry for the trolling comment, it’s just that this topic has been hashed, re-hashed, served the following day as leftovers, frozen, re-heated a year later, leftovers put in a tuperware container and served lukewarm the following day
let’s go over the full argument here:
you (sarcastic)
: …Cause, clearly, he hurts the team when he’s on the floor…I don’t want to try and speculate how much we lose by without Monta on the floor this game
me
the team played exactly even with the Spurs score when Monta was on the court, hardly a dominant effect on the overall score
you:
his TEAM played evenly with the other TEAM despite his INDIVIDUAL contributions
we are debating the overall effect of Monta being on the court, but we aren’t allowed to use the only measure of the score differential when he is on the court?
I’m not attempting to draw some sort of direct correlation (Monta is a net zero player because his plus minus was zero) NOT saying that at all.
But you raised a specific point about how the team would have done without Monta. I responded with a FACT that from a scoring standpoint, the Dubs just broke even when he was on the floor. End of story. I’ll give you the whole issue about teammates sucking (because he did share the court with a lot of people)
because really, HERE is the bottom line
does that minimize his "dominance"
yes, yes it does. If he was really dominant, it would DEFINITELY show up in the +/-…that’s kinda the definition of dominant, he dominates/controls stuff.
He was dominant at times….
and just like you say above, bball is complicated, there’s a high probability that you and your eyeballs may have missed a pertinent detail or two. All I did was compare your assertion to the actual numbers
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
whether team scoring was equal has
no impact on how “dominant” any said player is. Was Jordon not dominating the game, offensively or defensively, when he scored 50 and lost? I think that’s elementary enough not to have to go into detail.
More importantly, its as if you are saying Monta made no plus impact because the team’s scoring was equal. This speaks to the overrated +/- when evaluating individual performance … and an individual’s impact on the game, because you are presuming that, because his team couldn’t get over the hump, therefore Monta’s 50% shooting and 38 pts is somehow minimized in terms of impact on the team. you need to evaluate the other 4 players, and then look at this team as a whole, and see that Monta could not have helped the team, unless you think those 30 shots could be sprinkled to everyone else and they would shoot 50% from 2’s and 3’s, which is unlikely, especially a Curry-less Warriors.
you got me
I mentioned it in passing, but a single game plus minus is probably the worst stat to use
but it is funny that you bring Jordan up (I remember this from initial research) did you know that Jordan actually has the highest plus minus of all time?
and why isn’t Paul Pierce show as bad as Monta in the plus minus? Those old Celtics teams were pretty horrid?
Statistics like plus-minus never tell the whole story, just like anything else. But they do help illuminate things we might not have seen otherwise, and that’s why they’re worth looking at. Moving away from this one game (where Monta was admittedly outstanding) there is a pretty hefty mountain of evidence that Monta’s best basketball skill is that he is awesome to watch, rather than being a truly effective player
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 3:44 PM PST up reply actions
the Celts have always had playoff caliber teams
during Pierce’s tenure much of the time to my mind. And Pierce, in his prime, was a better, more effective scorer. He could score better in the half court sets cause he had a post game, a 3 pt game, and he could drive too. It doesn’t surprise me about Jordan since he played on so many dominating teams. He’s won 6 rings, I’m not sure if you know, and played for teams, including the 72 win team, that beat people by 25 pts every night. Kidd had the 4th highest +/- in the postseason last year, next to Chandler, Dirk and Terry. Kidd was not the 4th most effective player. Not even close. And how odd that all 4 Mavs were at the top?…
If +/- were as illuminating as you assert, then it would be quite clear that Monta shouldn’t play at all for the Dubs. He should sit the bench, and Radmonovich and Udoh should have gotten way more minutes since he showed to be truly “more effective” as they were atop the +/- list. Look at the names that are atop these stats.
We have a different opinion on the merits of +/-. I’m glad we had the discussion though.
the Celts have always had playoff caliber teams during Pierce’s tenure much of the time to my mind.
you obviously remember wrong then.
19-31
35-47
36-46
49-33
44-38
36-46
45-37
33-49
24-58
those were boston’s record in pierce’s first 9 seasons
change your mind yet?
also, its not just plus minus, the “Monta doesn’t help us win” conclusion is based off of a ton of stuff
I’m telling you, I started off arguing against these conclusions too…but the whole of the evidence is pretty one-sided. He shoots at an elite volume, but that’s about the only thing (besides steals and PPG) that he does at an elite level
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 4:28 PM PST up reply actions
I'm not arguing Monta is elite either (e.g. a perennial All-Star)
At bottom, and at minimum, I’m saying the Warriors are not a better team without Monta and with, say, your run of the mill SG…like Bellineli!!!
He shoots at an elite volume because of the inferior team he plays for. It hurts his efficiency, of course. But people make it out like he is terribly inefficient. He’s not.
At bottom, and at minimum, I’m saying the Warriors are not a better team without Monta and with, say, your run of the mill SG…like Bellineli!!!
Who the hell said that? Base your arguments off things that were actually said.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 5, 2012 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
If he did this consistently, then I’d be a lot happier with him. I’m reasonably happy with him so far this year, even though he’s still undersized and doesn’t score as efficiently as I would prefer.
I'm the soul brotha' like no other!
he shot 50 percent from
two pt range and 50 percent from 3 pt range. What more do you want? I’d prefer he get to the line more, but I’d also prefer Michael Jordan as our 2 guard. What was his efficiency I wonder? I suppose if the Bulls were more efficient for the 8 minutes he was off the floor, the Bulls FO should have been more wise and traded him for Jeff Hornacek and a no. 1. How many 2 guards would you rather have than Monta, anyways?
There are lots of names
higher than Monta’s on TS% that are far inferior players, in terms of value and effectiveness, than Monta. D Cook and Landry Fields are in the top 10 TS% last year.
the question to ask
is how many have lower TS%, AND take more shots?
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 4:29 PM PST up reply actions
agreed with this
you could even say how many have a lower TS that shoot anywhere close to monta’s volume.
Who does Monta play for?
The Warriors. Did he shoot this much alongside Baron? Would he shoot this much alongside D Rose and Deng? Pierce and Allen?
And saying he needs to work on shot selection is different than saying he’s a shitty player and hurts the team.
his offense may be in question
but his defense is still awful. he needs to play with a big PG who is capable of guarding 2s in order to be a useful player, and that is difficult to build around.
Really??
Such effing ignorance, watch the games. It obvious Monta is helping the team significantly. He takes the burden of shooting often in situations like this cause, the people around him couldn’t shoot worth, for lack of a better word shit. Don’t hang your hat of advance statics, you have to take each game indivually, too many damn variables for me, this is coming from a statiton, stats are garbage with out applied theory.
by Coldlampin on Jan 5, 2012 12:55 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
My bad.
It’s always so hard to read sarcasm on this thing. So many Monta haters on this board it’s frustrating. Someday this Monta Vs Curry BS will end. Who am I kidding? To many idiot fans out there.
by Coldlampin on Jan 5, 2012 1:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
A lot of smart fans here
but this board is heavily reliant and often hang their hats on advanced stats — sometimes to a fault in my view.
yeah
it seems there is a huge lack of balance in arguments…
IMHO, baseball is the only sport where stats can be used as a super-reliable measure of players, (since you rarely rely on other players in that sport)
I look at Bosh, but that could be wrong… I’ll have to wait and see how this season plays out.
clearly, he hurts the team when he’s on the floor…
it’s not a clear hurt, more of a subtle hurt. kinda like boiling a lobster by starting out with cold water. to the lobster everything looks great for a while
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2012 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Don't see it.
Monta does his best to make this team better, but he can only do so much, his team mates need to step it up (minus a healthy Curry). Not sure what standard your using to judge Monta by, but whatever it is, it is flawed.
by Coldlampin on Jan 5, 2012 1:42 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Not sure what standard your using to judge Monta by, but whatever it is, it is flawed.
the laws of physics , they are only flawed from individual perspectives. the gravel don’t like being the road but the dirt enjoys the cover.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2012 2:14 PM PST up reply actions
??
Nice evasive convoluted answer?
How I measure a player is based on my experience of watching and playing basketball for many years.
What I see from Monta is a terrific score, able to breakdown the defense, an excellence passer, and aggressive defender. I’ve seen this very consistently for the past few years. The main issue Monta has is he is overplayed so his skills I mentioned above may start to diminish.
I know many people want to bring in advance stats in to the argument. I’m not a fan of advance stats, although I do find them interesting being a statition. There are far too many variables that take place to average them out for a career or season. There is lack of applied theory, when it comes to majority of stats, that’s why I myself have a hard time believe there significane.
Basketball is a game with too many damn nuances. Advance stats get lost in it.
by Coldlampin on Jan 5, 2012 2:30 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
no offense, but I am calling BS on you
I’m not a fan of advance stats, although I do find them interesting being a statition
err….you mean “statistician”
the fact that you can’t spell your professed profession does not give me a high degree of confidence that you know what you are talking about
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 2:38 PM PST up reply actions
I can't spell. My bad.
I’ll spell it out to you. Since you are questioning my credentials. My degree is in econometrics, which is economic theory with applied statistics. I run staticitcal anyalsis for a leaving. Way to be an ass about it.
by Coldlampin on Jan 5, 2012 2:47 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
sorry guys...seriously, I appologize
I’ll stop the ad hominem
it’s not just spelling though, it’s the fact that that career isn’t even pronounced like you spelled it (there’s a whole additional syllable in there). I don’t know you, gotta base my perception off what you write. An “expert” that can’t correctly spell their sector of expertise is not much of an expert IMO.
Also, there is a question of relevant expertise. For instance, a guy says “I work on cars for a living” could mean anything from oil changes, to custom engines, to working at a car wash. You may know all sorts of stuff about statistical theory, but if you looked into it, you would know that these advanced stats are actually pretty fair predictors.
For what it’s worth, I dabble in statistics myself (specifically modelling…most of the time I’m on here is waiting for my run to finish)
my problem is that I have spent some time looking into advanced bball stats and concluded (along with a bunch of other folks who seem pretty astute) that although not perfect, they are absolutely useful.
so when you say something like this:
What I see from Monta is a terrific score, able to breakdown the defense, an excellence passer, and aggressive defender.
All I can think of is:
-Monta gets a lot of shots, and converts some tough one, but is not elite at putting the ball in the hole on a per shot basis…the actual numbers support this.
-Although he does break down the defense, it doesn’t always work out so well, numbers and eyeballs should support this one
-An excellent passer…I’ll let this one slide, because I agree that he is at least a good passer
-An aggressive defender – who plays bad defense…again, numbers and eyeballs should agree that Monta gets torched pretty regularly on D
there is a difference of opinion here. And that’s ok. Behind my assertion there are actual data points that can support it. Behind your assertions is…more opinion.
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 3:23 PM PST up reply actions
All that is fair
but is not elite at putting the ball in the hole on a per shot basis
I don’t need a concession of Monta being elite; I’ll settle for acknowledgment that he is a very good (well above average, whatever word/pharse you are comfortable with) and plus 2 guard in this league. It seems to be a chore to get that acknowledgment here, especially when people are throwing out that he hurts the team by being in there.
People want elite effeciency from a penetrating 2 guard as the no. 1 option on a bad team. That’s near impossible.
He’s flawed too, but who isn’t? Can’t stand that phrase, because it implies perfection is the standard in the NBA at the 2 guard position.
looks like we have actually managed to come to some sort of an agreement!
holy internet miracle!!
I’ll agree that Monta is above average (but only because I think he can improve (and is)).
People want elite effeciency from a penetrating 2 guard as the no. 1 option on a bad team. That’s near impossible.
I do think Monta’s numbers are unfairly skewed by what he has been asked to do (rebounds specifically come to mind). I also think they are fairly skewed by all the dumb stuff he does (long two’s early in the clock, bad D, driving into set D).
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
and changing a player's habits is
much easier than giving them the athletic ability and skill Monta has…
And I think #‘s and eyes show that Monta is a very good player if he doesn’t improve one iota. Though I think his production/efficiency can improve as the roster improves.
it goes both ways
monta will never have adequate size and lateral quickness to play the 2.
I don't know what this means
He IS playing the 2 guard, so you’re wrong. And if you meant “not play it effectively at the 2” you’re wrong there too. There are lots of bad defenders that play the 1 and 2.
Though I’ve always liked Monta at PG next to an elite SG, or atleast a physical, scoring 2 guard.
Not really.
Monta at the 2 is a horrible defender. Melo at the 3 is simply a bad defender. There’s actually a big difference. Couple the rebounding disparities and it gets even bigger.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 5, 2012 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
its not semantics
there are actual statistics that put monta at the bottom of the league and melo just below average defensively
Though I’ve always liked Monta at PG next to an elite SG, or at least a physical, scoring 2 guard
that’s the problem. Montay is a bad point (bad, bad montay stay away from point!) but not big enough to play 2 so you compromise 2 positions when you try to make him work. Physics say fix both problems by using a better point and a bigger 2 . It’s nothing about skill or personality or fan appeal it’s about physics of the game (which the stats must support as they are created by the physics)
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 5, 2012 9:57 PM PST up reply actions
As someone who doesn't dabble.
First off I really never felt I hade to mention this, but I have mild dyslexia, I have improved on it over the years but, I can’t spell worth a damn, and I use the words often.
Back to my point, stats are all fine an dandy, but your missing my point. Watching games in my opinion is just as equally important. The stats are misinterpreted all the time, because of the lack of applied knowledge to interest the stats. You your self even admit to it below, regarding Monta’s #‘s are misrepresenting in negative light because of the situation he’s put by his team/coach.
I am on the defense on subject because it send like people used the advance stats at the end all be all, and that now right.
Jeez, so animosity for Monta. Man times have change being a sports fan.
by Coldlampin on Jan 5, 2012 4:58 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
The stats are misinterpreted all the time, because of the lack of applied knowledge to interest the stats….Monta’s #‘s are misrepresenting in negative light because of the situation he’s put by his team/coach.
two things on this:
first - “lack of applied knowledge” are you joking?? I assume you are not, but please note that there is a whole emerging field based on these types of advanced statistics. Stalk Evanz online (he has another blog, plus what he posts in here). There is a high degree of applied knowledge. You are trying to question experts about something you don’t understand (and I’m not trying to talk down to you, seriously, do some research on this stuff, just spend an evening or two reading up…for example, the use of TS% instead of just FG% makes a TON of sense to me)
secondly – this is what’s known as a straw man argument – you selectively chose the weakest portion of the argument (variability in stats), ignored everything else, and pretend like it refutes the whole argument. Even if Monta’s numbers are off because of the situation, how off exactly do you think they are? How can you prove this? Why is it so much different for say, Monta, than it is for a young Paul Pierce?
Jeez, so animosity for Monta. Man times have change being a sports fan.
This is totally not fair, Monta is one of my all-time favorite Warriors to watch, I just wouldn’t put him on the list of “best” players…ok maybe I would, but only because the list would be too depressing
For me, I really like to look deeper into the how and why. For instance, if Monta is so damn good, why aren’t other teams knocking our doors down to trade for him?Don’t you care that Monta takes the more shots than guys who should technically be able to convert those shots more often?
and yeah, stats lie, yada yada, but you really need to provide some sort of evidence if you want to convince someone that you are right. Stats aren’t the end all be all, but they are data points that can be used to test a theory.
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 5:31 PM PST up reply actions
No surprise that the top pt diff players last year played on the best teams
It’s as much a team stat as it is an individual one. It applies a stat to one invidiual player yet factor in what his teammates do, with and without him, at both ends of the floor.
Put any Warriors player on, say, the Bulls or the Heat, including Monta, and his +/- shoots up without any change in play on their part. It’s as much a team stat as it is an individual one. Ekpe Udoh and Radmonivich had the beset +/- on the Dubs last year. Take a second to absorb that. It would be absurd to say they are as valuable or are better even if you adjust for minutes.
D Fish was about 15th in +/- in the NBA…cause he played on the Lakers. Metta World Peace was on that list at about 20th. Both players were terrible last year. The list goes on and on…
To point to +/- and use that to bolster the rhetoric that Monta “hurts” the Warriors - which is to say that, as long as he is on the roster, the Warriors are better off not playing him at all since he was second to last in +/ on the team — seems a bit foolish on its face, and insane when taken to depths.
And Monta is near top in PER. What does all this mean? If you claim to know, it may be that you know nothing at all.
I should also point out that of all the posters on this site, I'm probably one of the least qualified to go around spouting first-hand statistical research
All the better ones are probably just burned out from having this exact conversation a million times
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 5, 2012 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
No surprise that the top pt diff players last year played on the best teams It’s as much a team stat as it is an individual one. It applies a stat to one invidiual player yet factor in what his teammates do, with and without him, at both ends of the floor.
+/- is useless, RAPM is much better, as it adjusts for quality of teammates and opponents on the floor.
And Monta is near top in PER.
PER is a terrible predictor for impact on a team. defense is not taken into account except in the form of blocks and rebounds, and it overvalues low efficiency, high volume shooters
i only mentioned 1 new statistic
so i don’t know why you’re saying “all”. RAPM is a good predictor. unadjusted +/- is a terrible predictor. PER is a terrible predictor. it’s statistically significant. stop using bad statistics in your arguments, and claiming that they’re the same stats that we use. nobody said unadjusted +/- had any indication of how good a player is, because as you said, if a team sucks, all the players will have negative +/-’s. However, RAPM adjusts for this, and still shows that monta has been a pretty large negative over the past 2 seasons.
should he be
benched then? What do you think that suggests? Look at the names on that list. Marco Bellineli and Raja Bell and Mike Dunleavy are in the top 30 of that list.
what are you talking about?
belinelli and bell are negatives (bell is very negative). dunleavy is not a bad player.
Bynum, Chandler, and Nate Robinson are negative RAPM players last year
and they still rate higher than Kevin Love…and all rate lower than Anthony Morrow. Peja Stojakovich rates higher than all of them. Kidd ranks in top 20, so does Chris Anderson, Rashard Lewis. Ron Artest is like 30th
I must have read the wrong list the first time, cause looking at them again I don’t see Bell and Bellinelli on them.
Bynum, Chandler, and Nate Robinson are negative RAPM players last year
andrew bynum +0.3
tyson chandler +3.1
nate robinson -1.8 (honestly, he’s not even a good player so i’m not sure why you’re surprised that hes a negative)
kevin love +0.3
RAPM does not tell you which players are the best
RAPM merely tells you which players have the largest positive impact on their team. good defenders are rewarded as such, and bad defenders are penalized. you can’t tell me that just because a player doesnt score much, he can’t positively impact his team.
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