This may not be popular
by eastbayglory on Jan 9, 2012 1:36 PM PST
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But....above all the other storylines, the first eight games have shown that Monta Ellis is not a great fit within Coach Jackson's slowed down, more fundamental gameplan. The issue is not whether Curry and Ellis are a good pairing, or whether Curry's ankle makes him a liability as the team's star. The real issue is whether Ellis can be the star of a Mark Jackson-coached team. On the other hand, there is hope that Curry will take this year to get his ankle right and then use his premier shooting ability to lead a more half-court focused, defensive team that has less possessions each game with which to work. It seems weird to put Curry and defense in the same sentence, but in terms of structuring this roster, the best days ahead will involve Curry at the helm surrounded by an efficient supporting cast with toughness and high basketball IQ.
And while most fans will require the Warriors to produce a superstar in return for Ellis, I think it's time to consider the value of moving Ellis for cap relief, depth and hopefully a 1st round pick in 2012. While a star like Dwight Howard would be amazing of course, the reality is Golden State still isn't a destination. No star is going to want to re-sign with the Warriors right now. Maybe a couple years down the road with some building and progressive success, but this front office needs to step into the reality of the free-agent landscape today in early January 2012.
While I'd like to stop there and just leave this issue of Ellis/Jackson for discussion, I'm going to throw out a couple trade ideas to move the discussion forward. Everybody just stop it with the Dwight Howard talk. The other widely discussed potential deals have included impact players like Andre Iguodala and Josh Smith. While I like them both, they don't make this a great team. Rather, two teams I'd start talking to are Toronto and Charlotte.
Imagine the Warriors sending a package of Monta Ellis, Andris Biedrins, Ekpe Udoh, and Charles Jenkins to Toronto for something like Jerryd Bayless, Amir Johnson, Leandro Barbosa, Ed Davis and a 2012 1st.
Bayless is a big guard that can flat out score and decently defend. Amir Johnson is a decent defender. Barbosa is a big expiring and Ed Davis was a top 10 pick that has shown flashes and could use a change of scenery. We all know the Raptors have been after Biedrins in the past and Ellis would be ridiculous off the ball with Caulderon. Udoh would give them nice defensive depth.
Stephen Curry/Nate Robinson*/Leandro Barbosa*
Jerryd Bayless/Klay Thompson
Brandon Rush/Dorell Wright/Dominic McGuire
David Lee/Ed Davis
Amir Johnson/Kwame Brown*
And then there's Charlotte, where Gerald Henderson still hovers below the radar as a blossoming young player that plays solidly on both ends of the floor. Four years under Coach K will do that. He worked out with Steph this summer and I'd love the thought of those two sharing the backcourt in Oakland. In a dream deal, I'd send Monta Ellis, Andris Biedrins, Dorell Wright and Ekpe Udoh for Boris Diaw, Gerald Henderson, Tyrus Thomas, Reggie Williams and a 2012 1st. Charlotte gets a stud to put next to Augustin and Kemba, a decent center, Dorell's pretty favorable contract, and Udoh as a promising young player. Plus they dump Tyrus Thomas' borderline albatross contract.
Stephen Curry/Nate Robinson*/Charles Jenkins
Gerald Henderson/Klay Thompson
Brandon Rush/Dominic McGuire
David Lee/Tyrus Thomas
Boris Diaw/Kwame Brown*
*expiring deals
In both of these deals, the Warriors would enter next off-season with over 20+ million in cap space and a clear direction. Mark Jackson is here for the long haul and so he will chart that direction. I think Curry is going to be a part of it along with David Lee and his immovable contract (amnesty?!). Who knows, maybe Ellis' subtraction will even make both of the above rosters more competitive than this year's current mess of a roster, one that is now in the throws of a severe identity crisis. So I think it's time for this front office to think creatively, maybe outside the box, and move Ellis now without requiring a star in return. If they're thinking in terms of basketball sense and not short-term business sense, then hopefully they're considering such deals already.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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If you could pull off that trade, you should be the GM.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 9, 2012 1:38 PM PST reply actions
the first eight games have shown that Monta Ellis is not a great fit within Coach Jackson’s slowed down, more fundamental gameplan.
care to elaborate?
as far as I can tell, Monta seems to be having one of his best years so far. Some bad TOs last game (because Steph was out), but otherwise, he’s played extremely well.
Granted, that last play against the Jazz was a travesty, but I put that more on the coaching staff than Monta (that play was SOOOOO predictable, we need to at least set a screen or two to give monta some room)
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 9, 2012 2:20 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I was going to say that.
Monta doesn’t seem like the problem to me. (and i’m not just saying that because I’m a Monta fan.)
And why would he be responsible for running Jackson’s offense if there is another PG on the roster? I think Monta is stepping in to some roles that he normally wouldn’t have – and he’s doing an OK job.
Monta isn’t necessarily supposed to be running the point for whole games at a time. Yeah he CAN but his skill set isn’t ideal for it.
"I gots ta say the nay no." - Pootie Tang
by Tremendous Hops on Jan 9, 2012 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn't go as far as saying he is playing that well
But he has definitely shows his adaptability and changed his game to suit Jackson. Of all the warriors this year he has shown the most versatility to adapt to the New coach. Whether it suits his game or not… I’m not sold YET. I still think he is playing well below his capabilities thus far.
I like Gerald Henderson...he's up and coming
BUT I don’t really like either trades. It doesn’t make the Warriors any better, if you ask me. These are bad teams we are trading with and those pieces on their respective teams haven’t made either TOR or CHA a playoff contending team.
We Believe!!!
BUT I don’t really like either trades. It doesn’t make the Warriors any better, if you ask me.
you obviously overlooked the key piece in each trade that would make it a steal for us (the 2012 first rounder of a bad to mediocre team)
so you want another Anthony Randolph or Ike Diogu?
No thanks. I’ll watch entertaining with a loss over dead-beat boring with a loss any day of the week.
I wish I never had to sleep.
by DMJR on Jan 9, 2012 6:10 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
you seriously don't want anyone from this draft?
it’s completely loaded.
i dont want anyone that the Warriors will select, regardless of draft position.
I wish I never had to sleep.
even worse is that if they don’t draft high, they’ll never get anyone good in free agency or trade.
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 9, 2012 8:24 PM PST up reply actions
I actually wanted Jennings or Rubio too.
I think that it’s possible that Steph may be a spot-up shooter coming off the bench if his ankle problem persists and mars his career. I’m a huge Curry fan but i’m a ‘glass is have empty’ kinda fellow.
I wish I never had to sleep.
I definitely didn't want Klay either
Udoh…I was cool with
"The way I do it is I tell the athletic trainers the instant pain I feel and this is the worst it has been" - Steph Curry on his ankle 1/4/2012
by Duby Dub Dubs on Jan 10, 2012 10:20 AM PST up reply actions
i didn't want klay or udoh
wanted steph, george, and kawhi
I don’t know — Kahwi and George could make a pretty intriguing 2-3 (or 3-4, depending on matchup). Kahwi’s your defensive/rebounding beast, George your offensive guy. Both ridiculously young, long and athletic.
I’d take them over Monta/Dorell/Lee in a heartbeat.. :-(
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 10, 2012 2:15 PM PST up reply actions
true
george is pretty good defensively too though
George is going to be a borderline star
on both ends of the floor. That guys fills it up.
by eastbayglory on Jan 10, 2012 2:30 PM PST up reply actions
I think it won’t be long before tons of teams regret passing on George.
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 12, 2012 12:54 AM PST up reply actions
Tons, 9, same difference
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 13, 2012 9:05 PM PST up reply actions
From what I’ve seen so far, I’ll definitely take this year’s Monta over the one from last year and the year before. His passing has really been a revelation. Minuscule sample size, but so far by APM, this year’s Monta is killing the Smart-led version of last year and the Nelson-led version of two seasons ago.
(Of course, Klay Thompson is currently leading the team in that regard, so grain of salt…)
There will be no extra point!
Tend to agree with a few folks here...
… that Monta is actually been better in this system. I keep going back to the Chicago game since it’s pretty much our only “real” look at the full team in action. I actually like mixing Monta and Steph at point (I didn’t previously)… seems to me Steph is near elite running point in transition, but struggles in the half court… whereas Ellis is more effective in the half court where he can put pressure on the defense to create open looks for others. I think having a system where Steph controls the tempo and playcalling while putting the ball in Monta’s hands in halfcourt sets can be an extremely effective one.
by warriorsablaze on Jan 9, 2012 3:03 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Rather not...
These sort of trades is what keeps the Warriors the Warriors… Trading good talent for mediocre talent with longer contracts. I rather tank the season, hope for a good pick. Pick by BPA and go from there. Monta/Biedrins next year will be very valuable trade assets for over the tax teams.
by mrorangesoda on Jan 9, 2012 3:37 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
the point of these trades is to get the other teams' 2012 first rounder, while making our current team worse
which could lead to 2 good picks in a stacked draft, a great start to a rebuilding effort.
The hard part of getting a good draft pick is how the Warriors will use it. Ekpe Udoh was a reach and as much as I like Udoh the next pick after him was Greg Monroe. Not to mention remember how we won an extra percent and beat Washington Wizards for that higher percent and look how that worked out… Our balls in the draft has never been lucky since Chris Webber.
This draft projects to be stronger than 2010 or 2011. If we could end up with 2 top 7 picks, we could very well end up with a couple great prospects.
I heard he doesn't like music.
by Reverend_Randy on Jan 9, 2012 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
our balls or our decisions?
Webber draft wasn’t about lucky lottery balls….we traded the 3 pick (penny Hardaway) + 3 future 1sts to Orlando for C-Webb cuz they had just drafted Shaq in 92 and needed a guard………1995 was luckier with the lottery balls ….1st pick and Joe Smith
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 12, 2012 4:30 PM PST up reply actions
our balls or our decisions?
protect your balls at all costs
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 12, 2012 11:39 PM PST up reply actions
Monta the scapegoat, I see.
by Precise Films Productions on Jan 9, 2012 3:39 PM PST reply actions 5 recs
Well, not really
it’s just business.
That’s the problem with most of us Warrior fans (and for some reason by transitive powers the front office?), we let emotions get in the way of good basketball moves. Ellis is not the scapegoat, but rather arguably our most valuable player out in the market. So moving him now would make sense considering the fundamental structure of this team will not make the playoffs in the Western conference. Period. They will not.
Didn’t see you write “Steph the scapegoat, I see” when Curry was heavily bashed for his ankle injury.
eastbayglory is making some good points; if you want to stop being mediocre, then you rebuild. Having overpaid players who can make you a low lottery team isn’t going to get you anywhere. The Warriors aren’t completely terrible, but they still suck and they suck enough to not get you anywhere. Although trading Monta is the main topic in this thread, I definitely think David Lee should go first.
I know you’re a huge Monta fan, I can tell. But honestly, if any of these trades occurred, it’d be better for the long run. We get some cap relief + high draft picks and who knows, maybe we get lucky with an Anthony Davis one year and maybe the next we can get a guy like Quincy Miller/Tony Wroten. Or a scenario could be Harrison Barnes this year, Andre Drummond the next. OR Anthony Davis/Harrison Barnes this year and the next Tony Wroten. Ok I’m getting a bit carried away here, but you see what I mean.
Have you been watching the Timberwolves lately? I’ve watched a couple of games and they look pretty solid so far. Kevin Love is still Kevin Love but even better and Ricky Rubio is going to be something special in the future (already showing signs of it). Derrick Williams looks good. Still has some work, but looks promising. They have a very good young core, but they obtained those players by rebuilding and getting rid of contracts like Al Jefferson. They’ve given some head scratching contracts, but it’s not like they gave a player like David Lee a huge contract with multiple years on it…
All aboard the Anthony Davis express!
If only
Biedrins can dominate the post on offense/defensive end. We are a top contender. With Lee being the only post scorer we have, our guards are pretty much beat on the defensive end. Its better if we have an offensive threat on the post so our guards could get free from their defender. Ive notice that our offense are coming from our guards via assist/points. If you compare our teams to top contender team, they all have an offensive threat on the post. Hopefully Mark Jackson realize that our Bigs has a important role to winning basketball.
by stepN30 on Jan 9, 2012 4:17 PM PST via Android app reply actions
wait... so you're saying
we just have to turn andris biedrins into dwight howard?
Yes
since hes the only big man we have/seen dominate before. We do have Kwame but his hands are like butterfingers. Sometimes its hard to accept to give him the ball because he occationally misses but if Mark Jackson would give him time to play more, will be more effective on the offensive end. That would give us more offensive threat on the floor rather than our guards who run 90% of the time. With Mark Jackson giving him limited minutes since the season started, its unlikely we see him dominate this season. To me in my opinion, with defense and having a offensive front court threat wins Championship.
by stepN30 on Jan 10, 2012 1:10 PM PST via Android app up reply actions
I'll admit, after reading the 1st sentance of this post I stopped reading
Listening to Matt Steinmetz on 95.7 today, he said it better then anyone else did when asked about the problems with this Warrior’s team: Monta Ellis is the last person you should look to on this roster when you try to figure out why the Warriors are struggling atm, they have FAR bigger issues.
by kyzah on Jan 9, 2012 8:23 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
Well then I know where we stand
because I rarely agree with Steinmetz. He’s not a very complex thinker when it comes to the game of basketball and I rarely walk away from one of his segments on the radio feeling like I’ve learned anything about the game of basketball or the team. He wastes many words.
Now to Ellis- I like his game when he’s not dominating the ball. He’s shown it in flashes. I like the high number of assists. Sure. But in terms of fitting with this team and this coach; in terms of setting guys up to be successful and getting everybody involved, Ellis worth moving for cap/picks especially if Curry is sticking around (and it looks like he is).
Yes, Ellis is the least of the Warriors’ problems in terms of talent. But lets take the analysis one step beyond Steinmetz (which is often never hard to do), and lets consider Ellis as a piece of the roster and the subsequent assets the Warriors can potentially acquire for him in a trade. Which is better? I argue the assets especially if those include a 1st round pick and a little cap relief.
Wouldnt it be great if Monta read this and it actually penetrated into his brain....
Now to Ellis- I like his game when he’s not dominating the ball.
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 10, 2012 9:29 AM PST up reply actions
No.
If he’s one of your top 2 players, you are in trouble.
by GovernorStephCurry on Jan 13, 2012 10:42 AM PST up reply actions
Ellis is a problem for this team
He’s not good enough to dominate the ball, and on this team he has to. As the third or forth option (as he was in the last playoff year) he’s fun to watch. But a guy who routinely has 5 for 20 shooting nights and is one of the smallest players on the floor, he’s not the person you want to be your team’s “best” player. Right now, he is. So you are right. This will not be a popular idea, but Ellis is the one player they have with any real trade value (while Curry is hurt) and he’s not helping this group get to the playoffs.
Trading their “best” in this case, for even a contributing “role” player, cap space, and/or maybe even a high draft pick, and somehow finally getting a dominate big man, is the only way this team is ever going to put the Don Nelson era behind it, and get to the playoffs again.
Absolutely not true. The problem is that he imagines it is so..please do not encourage him! ;>)
and on this team he has to.
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 10, 2012 9:31 AM PST up reply actions
I love it.
As much as I hate to admit that blowing it up for another 1st rounder is what we need to do… it is. And with either of these trades (i prefer the toronto one) we confirm our tank. And we wont have to watch a full season of bad basketball because the season is short. Also to people who are saying Ellis is or isn’t the problem that really isn’t the point of either of the trades. It is to trade marginal talent for another first round pick in an awesome draft. Im all for it, kudos for coming up with the idea and posting it.
We won't win
but I think the basketball could be a lot more entertaining than the crap we’ve seen so far.
I think the basketball could be a lot more entertaining than the crap we’ve seen so far
not sure what you’ve been watching but I’ve enjoyed the season so far. We beat a couple of good teams and played decent against most of the others. Considering the circumstances of Binky’s ankle, a new coach, DoorL’s cold start, Dre’s bad foot, too many rookies, etc. we could have had a lot worse games to watch. Sometimes just not soiling one’s self on the court is something to be thankful for.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Jan 9, 2012 10:03 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
…and with that last sentence, you’ve confirmed your new sig line. Rec’d.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I’d consider soiling myself on the court if it got us Anthony Davis…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Jan 10, 2012 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
We could probably organize a mass GSOM soiling event for that miracle.
by Only In Fairfax on Jan 10, 2012 9:33 AM PST up reply actions
charlotte would never bite
that would reduce them to small ball 24/7 with all rotations
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
yeah I could see them objecting on those lines
but they do actually get a little bigger with the trade. Andris/Udoh/D. Wright for Diaw and an injury-prone Tyrus Thomas. Plus they get more fire power, something they’re relying on Corey Maggette to provide (which is of course a disaster waiting to happen).
by eastbayglory on Jan 10, 2012 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
but when high volume scoring primarily comes from the guard position
its always smarter to have size to compete defensively with the prospect of guard scoring depth
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
marginal trade value is highest with steph curry
given the fact the perception in the league and general basketball fans is that steph curry is the up and rising all star, it’s difficult to see the warriors get more value for monta ellis, whose reputation outside of the people who really understand his game and the circumstances surrounding his play (warriors talent level is poor, we have 6 nba players on the team, monta has to shoot 20-25 times a night in order for us to win, much like kobe in the year he average 35ppg), we would get the most value from trading steph curry.
Thus we should trade steph, as he would have the most value. the report is there’s no structural damage on the ankle, why wouldn’t teams take a chance on him? trading for steph as a GM is probably a great PR move as well for the team getting him, as again, fan and public perception, as well as “expert” NBA opinions will likely applaud the decision.
Not to mention monta is averaging 24.1 – 8.4, good for 7th in scoring and 8th in assists. He doesnt seem to have problems with Mark Jackson’s system.
Not that it’ll solve our current issues, but the problem is that we are the worst drafting team in the league. Monta’s been in the league 6 years. his teammates from the drafts have been…
ike diogu, chris taft, kosta perovic (who?), patrick o’bryant, stephane lasme (who?), jermareo davidson (who i thought would be good), belinelli, anthony randolph, steph, and this year’s crop. I won’t mention ekpe udoh because everytime I see greg monroe play i just shake my head and curse under my breath.
The only player in the draft that will address any of our needs is andre drummond. I have doubts that Anthony Davis’ game will translate to the nba. warriors have been burned by lanky, tweener 4/3 F forever. We havent picked a right one since chris webber, or less so antawn, although he was a tweener as well.
Finally, i agree with mrorangesoda. Monta’s played his heart out 6 years now. He hasn’t ever complained about anything,other than steph being drafted (presumably either as a replacement for him, or monta realized sooner later the team would be in the same quandary as now). We can’t let talent leave. Gilbert Arenas, Antawn Jamison, Jason Richardson, Baron Davis.
He grew up here, he’s one of our own. not that many people care, but for me, that counts for something. I’ve seen him grow as a kid to an amazing player.
I’m with you on the loyalty thing, but how can we get a star player of significant enough talent on this team while we still have Monta on the current contract?
Steph is a great trade asset, but his contractual value is so low we would have to trade like seven players to add up to a Dwight Howard or whoever.
I just dont see how we can ever challenge for a championship with Monta on the team. If you just want to make a playoff team, then OK, keep Monta and everyone else is expendable.
by warriorsvictim on Jan 11, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
You are Right!!!
Monta is totally the problem with this team. Okay Steph take the lead…. oh wait you still have baby bones in your ankle. Okay well just dump it to D12…. oh wait, one of the millions of lopsided, crazy, trade proposals for him didn’t go through. Well Sheit… im all out ideas now
typical dub fan that has contributed to the losing ways of this unbelievable run of 1 playoff appearance in 18 yrs.
where does he say Monta is “totally the problem?” the problem is that the dubs are too good to be picking high enough where even the dumbest GMs can land a Lebron or Dwight or whoever. since CWebb, they’ve had 2 top 4 picks in 18 yrs and missed on both picks. to put this perspective, OKC has had more top 4 picks in the last 5 yrs (3).
w/o HS players, you’re not getting the Kobe level players at the end of the lottery. Most of the game’s best were picked in the top 3-5 picks. even some of the worst drafters in NBA history like David Kahn and Kevin McHale will hit if they have enough high picks. but u have to be in that position to even have a chance at that type of player.
but dubs management knows that ppl like u will continue to support the Monta’s or JRich’s or Spree’s leading the team to the 7th-11th worst record, so instead of blowing it all up and getting rid of the biggest contracts and sucking for a few yrs to pick up the next DRose, Durant or Blake Griffin, the dubs will continue to try to make the playoffs as a “stepping stone” to bigger things — what they either don’t realize or won’t admit publicly is that it wouldn’t be a stepping stone, it would be the pinnacle that this roster could achieve. making the playoffs can only be a stepping stone if u have a Kevin Durant type player already in place who can push you to the 2nd round and further.
mark my words, one of these teams that super suck right now will eventually get a superstar and enjoy some years contending while the dubs continue to produce the same season year after year.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."
by the evil monkey on Jan 17, 2012 12:41 AM PST up reply actions
like the idea but it will never happen ..
you are talking about 2 teams possibly trading the #1 pick in the 2012 draft for Monta Ellis? But then they also have to give up more decent/young assets for the prize of paying Biedrins 18 mill over the final 2 years of his contract? You say don’t talk about D. Howard trades, but honestly, a D. Howard trade is more realistic than these proposed deals.
by JimBarnett2KevinGarnett on Jan 12, 2012 4:36 PM PST reply actions
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