Udoh-sanity
by DrDave on Feb 14, 2012 11:58 AM PST
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Ok. He's not Lin. But Udoh has been the W's game changer during this 3 game streak. Not, the star. I would give that to David Lee. The plus minus numbers for Lee and Udoh are awesome. Udoh is helping me watch Beans on the bench in foul trouble. Let's start Udoh at center, and pull him when he need rest or is in foul trouble. Don't get me wrong, Udoh pulls the string short on enough shots under the basket to frustrate me. It doesn't frustrate me as much as the turnovers in the fourth quarter from casual passes into the post. When Udoh played in the last 3 games, respectively he was +16(den), +17(hou), +14(phx). Feel free to add in the blocks, points, etc. Basically, he is changing games.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
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Nice role player...not a starter on a good team but this is the Warriors.
Would love to wake up and really see a Lin-breakout. Udoh suddenly adds David Lee offensive skills with scoring + rebounding + Passing while maintaining his defensive skills and heart.
by Only In Fairfax on Feb 14, 2012 12:16 PM PST reply actions
Then we would have ourselved one Kevin Garnett
I think Udoh is slowly coming into his own tho.. He has not hit his ceiling yet! I think he can become a double double defensive beast soon.
by PIRATEWARRIOR on Feb 14, 2012 12:33 PM PST up reply actions
Double double is a bit too lofty a projection for him.
But I could see an all defensive 2nd team or two.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
Double double? Huh? Are you expecting him to all of a sudden start grabbing 50% more rebounds than he is now? Or perhaps start playing 48 minutes a game every night? Udoh was a pedestrian rebounder in college and an abysmal rebounder in his first year. As the sample size gets larger, he is showing less and less improvement over his first year. He’s a long way away from a regular double double.
He’s almost 25. He probably hasn’t hit his ceiling, but generally when a guy is 25, he’s pretty close to his ceiling. Improvement at his age tends to small.
Unfortunately he has a low ceiling due to his age
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln
by doubleteapot on Feb 14, 2012 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
24 is not too old to expand his game
A 50 year old can learn to shoot a better jumper.
by Xtremelink on Feb 14, 2012 2:05 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
In practice, however, by the time a player is 24 they rarely improve.
And yes, they may add some improvement of one area of their game or another … but it’s usually offset by declining physical skills.
Yes – your athleticism is usually in decline by 26 or 27. Absolutely. Maybe not in MUCH decline, but somewhere around there you have to keep improving parts of your game just to tread water.
Probably the most frustrating part about him @ #6
If he had better hands and some explosiveness, he could atleast give us Biedrins old production.
I think that statement is overused for players who stay in college
Do you think that players that come out after their freshman year automatically have a higher ceiling than players who stay a full 4 years? I don’t think it’s true. I think that there are players that have an ability to grow, so that growth is more evident when they enter the NBA at an early age al la Monta. Heck Mitch Richmond didn’t make his NBA debut until he was 23! Do you think that limited his “ceiling”?
I would like to think that Udoh has a better handle on the fundamentals of the game than “one and done” players, and that his body will hold up better too in the long run. Udoh has proved that he is a very smart player and is gifted with a great frame which is suited for defense. He is patient in the paint; as seen when he is willing to pass back to the perimeter to establish a better position inside.
Only time will tell whether he will be a starter, but he has proven that he has the talent and the drive to be a better offensive player. Defense…..I think he’s already set but he will improve. Now that will be something that will give other teams Nightmares.
It smells like hope in this mug
Mitch Ritchmond
The thing with Mitch is, no, it didn’t limit his ceiling …
… but by his second season he was very close to as good as he ever got. He only had one year which was unambiguously better than his second season (95-96) and another couple that were about that good, maybe a smidge better.
So the issue with Mitch joining the NBA at 23 wasn’t that his ceiling was low. It’s that he hit his ceiling very quickly after getting into the league.
So, similarly, the issue is that we should expect Udoh’s ceiling to be very close to where he is now as a player. His age tells us that he’s probably close to his ceiling … it’s the mediocre aspects of his game when he’s already close to his ceiling that tells us that his ceiling isn’t very high.
I would like to think that Udoh has a better handle on the fundamentals of the game than "one and done" players
This isn’t necessarily a plus as far as having a long career. His good fundamentals suggest that he’s not going to be capable of improving in that area – and that’s a problem because unlike with a younger player, you can’t expect much in the way of physical improvement.
Mitch was a bad example
I was gonna just throw the MJ card, (who came out when he was 21), but wanted to use an ex-Warrior. There are many players that improved after they were 22.
I have to disagree with your statements because defensive specialists usually don’t need to focus on having an NBA level offensive game in college. Udoh did not do too well offensively at Michigan, but increased his ppg at Baylor by over 100%. Physically, I don’t think he needs to improve much. And he’s going to have the same body if not better for about the next seven years. Its ridiculous to think he can’t increase his % on those midrange jumpers, and learn a few post moves in that time. I don’t think he will ever be a player teams have to plan their defense around, but as long as he is a threat, it will help create plays for others.
It smells like hope in this mug
To preempt the argument regarding PPG not meaning much, here are his college stats
His FG% is .390 this year. I think he can definitely improve that.
It smells like hope in this mug
Udoh began his advanced hoops study later than most
things changed considerably for him when he sat out a season with his transfer between colleges. He hasn’t had a full professional training camp yet, and played very sporadically last season with the injury and ‘win to save my job’ coaching. his age probably but not definitively depresses his ceiling [he might be an ‘outlier’], and we should defer hardening any assessment of him until next season.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
But neither of those things are particularly unique.
The “late start in hoops” thing applied to Adonal Foyle, for example. He was never able to improve. On the other hand, it also applied to Hakeem Olaujuwan, and he was very good right away: he came into the league at, what, 22 or 23 and was instantly a 20ppg, .560 TS% guy and that’s basically who he was for the bulk of his career.
Who are the counter-examples? The guys who were late starters who then went on to develop late and made a jump after age 25?
The no training camp thing is a useful caveat, but it’s worth looking at Udoh’s college production and noticing that it’s not like he was a particularly good college player offensively or from a rebounding standpoint. If Udoh’s production were somehow worse than we would expect given who he was in college, it might make sense to look at reasons why – and we might land on the injury and missed camps.
The problem is that Udoh is pretty much EXACTLY who his college stats said he would be. So all that’s left is crossing your fingers and hoping that, somehow, he’s an outlier.
And maybe he is. But do you see any reason to actually think so?
Udoh began his advanced hoops study later than most
This mostly just serves to put him behind his peers. It’s not a positive.
by Missing Barry on Feb 16, 2012 4:49 PM PST up reply actions
by most accounts Udoh stepped up his focus and training
after he transferred to Baylor, making sure his year off from eligibility was well spent on improving his offense. He’d been known for his shot blocking since high school, but without detailed knowledge of OK City schools, his coaching and competition at a public suburban school might not be on the level as say the Catholic schools where L.Hughes or D.Lee played, or Oak Hill Academy.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
his coaching and competition at a public suburban school might not be on the level as say the Catholic schools where L.Hughes or D.Lee played, or Oak Hill Academy.
To be honest, if you’re 6’8 with NBA level athleticism, chances are your HS coaching and competition just isn’t going to do much for your growth no matter where you’re playing.
by Missing Barry on Feb 17, 2012 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
probably true
but top high school prospects also participate in AAU competition or work out against local college players in the gyms and playgrounds — haven’t found anything that indicates that Udoh did. would not be surprised if his family put great importance on his academic preparation when he was in high school.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
Yeah AAU is really the best place for real HS talent. Camps, too, and if you’re in a basketball hotbed and a big time talent (like a Baron Davis in LA) you’ll probably get plenty of chances to play pickup with college and pro players.
by Missing Barry on Feb 17, 2012 7:34 PM PST up reply actions
Udoh played AAU ball in HS. After his Jr. year of HS, he joined a Texas based team. The coach was apparently later influential in getting him to transfer from Mich.
thank you jae
the main factor that gives Udoh a slim chance of improving in the next year or two is his focus and work ethic ; apparently, Lin found a shooting coach who helped him this past summer ; we can hope for something similar for Udoh. the talent is so shallow on this team that even small improvements would increase his value to the team, as a trade asset if nothing else.
Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)
Sure, there are players who improved substantially from Udoh's age.
But those players are the exception. Most players don’t improve a whole lot from that point. Maybe Udoh will end up being the exception, but quite frankly it seems rather unlikely. There’s nothing about him which screams “exceptional player” from a developmental standpoint.
It’s not an iron-clad law that players stop getting better around 25. But it’s a good rule of thumb. And when you write:
And he’s going to have the same body if not better for about the next seven years.
No, he’s not. I wonder if you actually read my post. He’s not going to have the same body. He’s probably already at or very close to his physical peak, and while we shouldn’t expect a drastic physical dropoff, you absolutely, positively should expect his body to decline over the next three-four years, to say nothing of the next 7.
As far as MJ is concerned, that doesn’t actually make your argument very well. Jordan entered his productive prime right around 24-25. Most people would talk about Jordan’s prime beginning in 87-88 … the year he turned 25. That’s when he put in four seasons of .600+TS% in a row. Surprise, surprise, that’s right in line with the age range that everyone talks about as being in their prime.
MJ did continue to add to his game. He developed that turnaround/fadeaway. But he did those things to stave off father time. He was NOT as effective an offensive player during the team’s second three-peat run. He’s was the same defensive stopper night-in and night-out. Yes, he added to his game, but he’s an almost perfect example of what players have to do in order to remain effective into their 30s. Jordan added a tremendous amount to his game … and was still declining as a player.
So even leaving aside the silliness of comparing Udoh to the greatest player of all time, one of the most athletic players ever to play the game and probably the most motivated player ever to lace up a pair of basketball shoes, we see that Jordan’s example still suggests that it’s unlikely for Udoh to become a lot better than he is right now.
Dude calm down
I’m not saying MJ is Udoh. That is silly for you to take my example out of context. I’m saying there are players who have improved after that age group. I’m not going to spend 2 hours to search for an example that will stand up to your scrutiny, which according to your comment would need to be a player nearly identical to Udoh.
And he’s going to have the same body if not better for about the next seven years.
Tell me that you have some source other than your own post why he is going to begin declining physically at 24. Saying something doesn’t make it true, just ask J-Ridah…..oh wait.
It smells like hope in this mug
I’m not going to spend 2 hours to search for an example that will stand up to your scrutiny, which according to your comment would need to be a player nearly identical to Udoh.
The fact that you’ve tried twice and failed – you’ve found players who support what I’m saying, rather than undermine it – makes the point.
I’m sure if you searched long and hard enough you could find a player who continued to make substantial improvement at an older age.
However, if you have to spend two hours to try to find a guy who supports your hypothesis, maybe it’s not a very good hypothesis.
Tell me that you have some source other than your own post why he is going to begin declining physically at 24.
Because almost everybody’s body begins to decline at that point.
It’s basic biology, dude. Although there are some exceptions (for some reason, endurance runners don’t see much decline til much later) this isn’t news, it’s conventional wisdom.
And it’s conventional wisdom supported by the examples that you brought to the discussion.
You’re the one who is alleging things (Udoh won’t decline physically for 7 years) which run against the conventional wisdom with exactly zero evidence to back you up. (And the evidence you have brought in undercuts your point, to boot!)
lol don't waste your time arguing with these people.
you are clearly far and away more intelligent and have laid out a much better argument. all the opposition has done is prove your point even more.
Examples of offensive improvement
Danny Granger came into the league at 22
Paul Millsap came in at 21
It smells like hope in this mug
Scola was going it in europe though
And a proven international basketball player.
Right but his offense improved from 27-30
Which was the point I was trying to make. Udoh has played a total of 1,500 minutes of professional basketball. I’m not saying he’s going to become Bynum overnight.
It smells like hope in this mug
Scola's offense from 27-30:
Age pts36 TS%
27: .548 15.1
28: .572 15.1
29: .550 17.9
30: .538 20.2
I don’t see clear improvement there. Yeah, he scored more, but he was actually worse at it on a per-shot basis.
To claim that’s improvement seems like very selective vision.
Udoh has no refunement to his game on offense.
He also lacks the explosion or ability to finish in traffic down low. So yes, Udoh CAN improve offensively, it’s just he has a lot more work to do to get there and at 24 the clocks ticking.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
A more apt comparison for Udoh would be someone like Haslem
Came in very limited offensively, but had a good motor and nose for ball and could play some D.
As he worked on his game, he developed a decent mid-range jumper, which opened up his game to not be an offensive liability. All that while improving his strongsuits (defense, rebounding, energy)
If Udoh can do similar, I’ll be happy. Don’t expect much offensively, except ability to keep opposing teams honest, and rebounding. Obviously to go with his D
But much less athleticism
Haslem is a top athlete at PF.
Can't you make a pretty good argument that Haslem's second year was his best year?
He scored 11.7 pts/36 (above his career average, and a number he’s only topped twice) on .588 TS% (his career best). That was also his best year on steals, assists, and blocks/36, and above his career average on rebounds/36 (although if he keeps up his recent rebounding surge, that will change).
The interesting thing about Haslem is that he had a mid-career slump that he seems to be recovering from. But to call it late-career improvement is to ignore that second season, when he was 25.
The interesting thing about Haslem is that he had a mid-career slump that he seems to be recovering from. But to call it late-career improvement is to ignore that second season, when he was 25.
He had injuries mid career. Missed some games, played a lot full strength. And considering hes not over skilled, anything limiting his athleticism could be potentially crippling.
What’s interesting about him is how he became what he did. If you remember Haslem in college he was classic college big man plotter who bullied opponents, 6-8, 270. Beat up opponents in SEC. Then he was undrafted, went to europe, dropped 50 lbs. Came back a completely different body. Spent a summer working with David Thorpe on using his new athleticism to his advantage and developing a shot that was all at 24.
I think with Udoh, we don’t have same caliber athlete, though working on one’s athleticism can make him more explosive. Perhaps dropping a couple lbs, or re-distributing his weight would help. We know he has excellent defensive fundamentals, and the nose for it.
I’d like to see him work on 2 things in offseason, working on his explosiveness. And working on mid-range jumper.
A quicker hop off the ground will get him more rebounds put backs. The mid-range J could open up the court for him in general.
I think with Udoh, we don’t have same caliber athlete, though working on one’s athleticism can make him more explosive. Perhaps dropping a couple lbs, or re-distributing his weight would help.
I think this is a good observation. But I think his terrible mechanics are even more the problem with exploding up for a rebound or up for a shot near the rim. He is obviously very explosive when going up for a shot block. The only difference that comes to mind with these actions is that blocking shots uses one hand and the others require two hands. He may be relying too much on his off arm for balance. I think he needs to work on his balance with 2 arms up and with a bio mechanical specialist. I imagine some medicine ball work would help.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Feb 15, 2012 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
I think with Udoh, we don’t have same caliber athlete, though working on one’s athleticism can make him more explosive. Perhaps dropping a couple lbs, or re-distributing his weight would help.
I always question this, at least for in shape professional athletes. For you or me? Yeah, sure. For a guy that’s maybe not in the best shape (like let’s say…Shaq at some points in his career)….yeah. But for most NBA players? Most gains are going to be pretty minimal. At best, you’re mostly redistributing (like adding muscle but getting slower/less explosive because of it).
by Missing Barry on Feb 16, 2012 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
at the injuries too
Haslem stated this is best he’s felt since the title run.
You see it too, he’s a bit quicker.
I'm curious what your point is.
Because I don’t see Granger getting substantially better. I’d argue that his best season was probably 08-09 … when he was 25. That season wasn’t a lot better than his previous two seasons, though.
Milsap has been very close to the same player his entire career, with a sophomore slump and slightly increasing shot volume. If you had to squint and argue that he reached a peak, you’ll also look at 08-09 as when he hit that peak. And in that season … around that 23, 24 year old mark for him.
What about Luis Scola. You correctly notice that he was older when he came into the league. However, I will point out that his rookie year TS% is almost exactly his career TS%. He’s not an argument for huge improvement. His scoring volume has gone up some (which may well just be situational) but his WS/48 has gone down rather substantially.
So could you explain how these three guys argue that Udoh is likely to improve at age 25?
A few things – first, players are entering the league younger now than in the past. Second:
Do you think that players that come out after their freshman year automatically have a higher ceiling than players who stay a full 4 years?
No. Ceteris paribus, though, and yes, they do. It’s all about the averages. Averages don’t mean it applies to every individual, though.
I would like to think that Udoh has a better handle on the fundamentals of the game than "one and done" players, and that his body will hold up better too in the long run
Does he have a better handle on fundamentals than his peer group, though? Yes, Udoh probably had better fundamentals than his peers like Cousins, Wall, Monroe, etc. But here’s the thing – those aren’t his peers. His peers are guys like Kevin Durant who were spending all year playing basketball professionally while Udoh was transferring colleges trying to figure things out. Actually, Durant is more than 6 months younger than Udoh. If you looked at those guys – the ones who have been in the league 4, 5 years now but are the same age as Udoh….does he have better fundamentals than them?
When it comes down to it, the best basketball players of a given age move on to the NBA when they’re ready – which is sooner than their lesser peers. That’s why they have higher ceilings, on average, and that’s why they generally end up being the better NBA players. Selection bias. It’s not a promising signal that Udoh is so old.
by Missing Barry on Feb 16, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
If he were bigger, more athletic, with a crazy effective offensive game, I just might…
by Missing Barry on Feb 16, 2012 5:19 PM PST up reply actions
is beans a starter lol
"You know whats funny? I always thought uhm dogs lay eggs and I learned something new today" Peter Griffin
by HUNGRY HUNTER on Feb 15, 2012 1:51 AM PST up reply actions
but his post moves and short jumpshots are falling lately
He’ll never be a star, but he’s already a defensive stopper, or will be very soon. If he gives you ten points a night I think he can be the perfect big off the bench and maybe even a starter soon.
Let me clarify: He should start on THIS team, but ideally he’d be a sixth man power forward/center type.
my concern about udoh is hes a pf not a c
And its apparent when he’s matched up against real centers; he’s just not big enough. I’d like him as a third big behind lee and a nice center.
by Xtremelink on Feb 14, 2012 2:08 PM PST via mobile reply actions
Udoh Oh no!
I like me some Udoh in terms of his humility and his obvious effort. I just wish he was more skilled offensively. At least he doesn’t run from the ball like a certain Latvian.
So, what happen first?
Udoh gets 15 and 12 and 4 blocks
or
Beidrins gets 10 points?
Beans gets 10 points
only because I doubt Udoh can pull in 12 rebounds
now…if we switch it to 12 blocks and 4 rebounds…
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 14, 2012 3:57 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If we're talking over the course of a week
It’s still Udoh…
I think Udoh will get 15, 12 and 4 blocks
Especially if Mark Jackson does what I wish he would – start Udoh!
by Togna Balogna on Feb 14, 2012 4:01 PM PST up reply actions
I noticed this the other day.
His RAPM and APM is off the charts at the moment.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 14, 2012 4:13 PM PST reply actions
Except with a better post game and he can block way more shots
And not rebound as well
RIP Al Davis
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"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
I mean his RAPM.
Nick Collison is repeatedly at the top of the league in RAPM, and Udoh is right there with him.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 15, 2012 11:32 AM PST up reply actions
It's not his fault that he has to do the dirty things
His rebounds would probably be better if he played with a center that helped on defense. But I have to admit that his hands are pretty bad.
F the Po Po
He didn’t exactly rebound in college, either.
by Missing Barry on Feb 16, 2012 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
He made a big difference gaurding screen n roll against Nash
Udoh is long and mobile, pretty remarkable how unathletic he is but still can be a great shot blocker too. He has no lift…but still gets it done.
Has anyone else noticed that Udoh has looked like the best perimeter defender on the team lately? He actually has been able to stay in front of guards on the perimeter switches. He also is able to contest 3 point shots and not just run at and foul 3 point shooters like our guards do. Who else in the league is able to do this and still get back to defend the rim. I remember KG used to do this but I do not think he was so effective on the perimeter.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
So I’m raising this as a serious question – is Ekpe Udoh the best player on the Warriors? I would argue his defense is probably better than anyone’s offense on the team. His lack of rebounds don’t seem to hurt the team, nor does his offense…and the more minutes he gets, the more meaningful his +/- stats become. Still smaller sample size-ish, but it’s also a pretty huge positive….I dunno, it’s getting to the point where I could plausibly consider him the best player on the team.
If RAPM and APM are telling the truth, he is.
And it’s not even close.
by Spider Jerusalem on Feb 17, 2012 2:00 PM PST up reply actions
if his offense could improve to even slightly below average, i'd have no problem calling him the best player on the team.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Well, he does have some skills, and the team offense has been better by quite a bit when he’s been on the floor so far in his career. Still a pretty small sample, but it’s a pretty big magnitude, too. I’m not sure it’s unreasonable to say his offense isn’t that far below average. He sets screens, generally maintains good spacing, and has enough skills that defenses don’t sag off him…
by Missing Barry on Feb 17, 2012 3:38 PM PST up reply actions
this udoh optimism/being the best player is laughable
he has no offensive game, can’t rebound and gets killed by strong post players( I still remember our “defensive game changer” coming in to guard howard and then getting absolutely demolished). He is a good role player, but you can get those type of players in the 2nd round, undrafted or relatively cheap in FA.
His only real positives are that his length can cause problems for undersized/below average post players and he is a great weak side shot blocker.
Ronny turiaf 2.0(except turiaf got drafted in the mid 2nd round not 6th overall).
have you seen his +/- numbers?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
his +/- is +94 so far this year (nate is 2nd at +29)
his +/- was +105 last year (vlad was 2nd at +52, and no one else was higher than +10)
or perhaps adjusted +/-?
his adjusted +/- this season is +14.41 (2nd is steph at +4.46)
his 2 year adjusted +/- is +9.85 (2nd is steph at +3.98)
or perhaps RAPM?
his RAPM this season is +3.9 (steph is 2nd at +2.4)
his RAPM last season was +1.5 (only behind steph at +2.1)
the numbers are so unbelievably in his favor, that i might not personally think he is the best player on the team, but i certainly wouldn’t put up a huge argument with anyone who did.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
It's not that I think the numbers are wrong, but I do think they require some context.
Udoh provides only one thing, but it’s the one thing this team most desperately need. We have nobody else who can do what he does and a lot of players who are helped by having him behind them.
And I know RAPM is supposed to correct for this, but I honestly don’t think it can. Or, at least, it’s hard for me to conceptualize the math that would properly compensate for that in his case.
I think it’s entirely possible that on a team full of good defenders, Udoh’s weaknesses (poor rebounding and offense) would vastly outweight on his strengths. But on this team, where his strengths are exactly what we need? It’s hard to imagine a player who is better suited to play major minutes on a team which is running Monta and Lee out there as much as we’re running them out there.
On the other hand, if we somehow traded Monta and Lee for Igoudala and Josh Smith, I think Udoh might be a substantial liability.
i think i agree
udoh seems like a good enough role player, but his numbers make him look like a star. i guess i should rephrase my last statement to
the numbers are so unbelievably in his favor, that i might not personally think he is the best player on the team, but i certainly wouldn’t put up a huge argument with anyone who
didargued that he was the most important player for this team.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Well, he doesn’t do much on offense, but he does have offensive skills.
gets killed by strong post players( I still remember our "defensive game changer" coming in to guard howard and then getting absolutely demolished)
I don’t find this to be a negative at all. Every player has matchup weaknesses, and most players get demolished by Dwight Howard. It happens. If he were bigger, bulkier and stronger and matched up better with Dwight, he’d be slower and not as effective out on the perimeter and not as quick in help D.
His only real positives are that his length can cause problems for undersized/below average post players and he is a great weak side shot blocker.
You mean that his defense completely changes the game for us when he’s on the court? I’m not arguing Udoh is a great player. I’m saying it’s possible he’s the best player on our team. The real problem is that he’s in the conversation at all – we’re very weak in the “best player” department, and that’s the problem with the team.
by Missing Barry on Feb 19, 2012 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
we’re very weak in the "best player" department, and that’s the problem with the team.
Best player on the team is the most important position on the court.
i understand all of the points especially the +/-
but
a) it would go far down if he started and got more minutes. If he is playing against the starters of the other team he would be much less productive
b)its vastly overrated the team with the best 5 player +/- is the new jersey jets and the 3 best(all who start and play together alot) is also the new jersey nets and they are 9-23.
The best two player combo is ekpe and curry and we are 11-17. So the teams that have the most cohesive combos are a combined 20-40…
also we were the worst rebounding team last year and continue to lose games because of it(including last night) and Udoh provides no rebounding at all
People keep clamoring for him to start, but if he does his efficiency will go way down and I guess my point isn’t that he is terrible because he can help as a role player, but he’s not a guy you spend the number 7 overall pick on.
a) it would go far down if he started and got more minutes. If he is playing against the starters of the other team he would be much less productive
Well, maybe. If he did indeed play more minutes against better players, +/- would go down, as you say. How much of a change would it really be, though? Anyways, that’s one reason for adjusted +/-, which controls for the other players on the court, and Udoh does extremely well in that, too.
b)its vastly overrated the team with the best 5 player +/- is the new jersey jets and the 3 best(all who start and play together alot) is also the new jersey nets and they are 9-23.
The best two player combo is ekpe and curry and we are 11-17. So the teams that have the most cohesive combos are a combined 20-40…
Not really the best use of +/-. It’s a stat with a lot of variation. Funny things happen in small samples. That doesn’t make it overrated, it just means you always have to understand the sample size for proper context. Not sure 2 player combo +/-’s mean much of anything.
by Missing Barry on Feb 19, 2012 4:20 PM PST up reply actions
a) it would go far down if he started and got more minutes. If he is playing against the starters of the other team he would be much less productive
I don’t think it’s particularly true that Epke plays primarily against reserves (especially since our “Starting” center plays so few minutes).
I think it’s something of a fallacy that starters play against starters and reserves against reserves. The concept of wholescale substitutions for the “Second unit” is something that only some teams do. Other teams rotate in one or two bench players at a time.
Epke’s numbers might go down if he played more minutes. On the other hand they might not. We can’t assume that they would.
His adjusted +/- stats just keep getting better, too.
I’m currently working on a version of adjusted +/- that is built off doing adjusted four factors. Ekpe is #2 in these ratings. LeBron is #1. Garnett is #3. It’s crazy. And it’s not just defense either. His offensive four factor +/- is also very good.
I’m with you guys that I am skeptical that this reflects his true value. I’d compare my skepticism to that of Nick Collison. There’s something about a good defensive bench player (Asik also has incredibly high +/-), that seems to inflate this stat. Although we’ll never really know until they switch teams completely.
J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.
(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.
Ronny turiaf 2.0
“2.0” shouldn’t mean “the same as.” It is supposed to mean ‘improved newer release’.
I’m stunned by the apparent incongruity between Udoh’s individual statistical line, which is somewhere between horrid and something much more pathetic than horrid. But the sample size for him make the team much, much better when he’s on the court is growing and it is much, much harder to argue against as the sample grows.
my bad i meant "the second turiaf"
i think the incongruity is due to the fact that many times he comes on with the second unit(or a mix of the second unit and curry) against another teams second unit and we have suprisingly good depth compared to many teams as rush, k thompson, and nate are very capable backups. As you said if the sample size grows if he continues his effective play than i will say I am wrong, but I can’t see him continuing to be so effective with more Run.
On a side note, if we can’t find a good trade for monta do you agree trading him for a lottery pick be a good idea considering this is the deepest draft in years?
I think quite a few people here would be pleased if we could trade Monta for a lottery pick without taking salary back…
by Missing Barry on Feb 19, 2012 4:21 PM PST up reply actions
or if we took salary back, it would preferably be in expirings
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
my bad i meant "the second Ronny Turiaf"
i think the incongruity is due to the fact that many times he comes on with the second unit(or a mix of the second unit and curry) against another teams second unit and we have suprisingly good depth compared to many teams as rush, k thompson, and nate are very capable backups. As you said if the sample size grows if he continues his effective play than i will say I am wrong, but I can’t see him continuing to be so effective with more Run.
On a side note, if we can’t find a good trade for monta do you agree trading him for a lottery pick be a good idea considering this is the deepest draft in years?
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