Who even wants Monta?
by Raidah on Feb 15, 2012 5:25 PM PST
Email
Print
I'll start by saying Monta Ellis is my favorite Warrior. If we had a better Center this post would probably not exist. I think I have made it over the fence finally about trading Eliis. With the emergence of Klay Thompson as a viable 2 guard and Brandon Rush and the most complete player on the roster (offense and defense), Monta seems more expendable game by game. The thing is, its no secret how Monta is perceived by the league. All Star reserves are picked by coaches, Monta has yet to go despite being the league leaders in scoring and minutes. I'm wondering how other teams perceive Monta, and knowing what all scouts know (i.e. volume shooter, reach defender, undersized) WHO WOULD EVEN WANT HIM?
Narrowing it down, which jersey can you see Monta wearing next year?
Atlanta Hawks - already have Joe Johnson, can't see Monta here unless they move Joe to 3, Smith to 4 and Horford to 5. Nope.
Charlotte Bobcats - In need of a 2 guard. Warriors and Bobcats do a have trading history. Possible.
Miami Heat - won't even waste my words here. Never.
Orlando Magic - pretty much everyone's dream scenario here, but unless Dwight is not the guy coming here, don't see this. Probably Not.
Washington Wizards - already have pretty much the same player in Nick Young. Nope.
Chicago Bulls - I feel Chicago needs an upgrade at 2 guard. Rip Hamilton is getting less durable, Ronnie Brewer is straight defense. Noah/Brewer trade may be an option here. Maybe.
Cleveland Cavaliers - they need talent everywhere. I don't think they have enough to get Monta, sure they would definitely take him though. Maybe that flopper Varaejo and someone else. Probably Not.
Detroit Pistons - they do have a bunch of guards : Gordon, Knight, Stuckey. They would probably want to move Gordon's 11 million dollar contract. Keep Monta. Probably Not.
Indiana Pacers - another trading history partner. Paul George is a bright spot, kind of like a Danny Granger lite. Possible.
Milwaukee Bucks - the place where dying Warriors go : Stephen Jackson, Corey Maggette, Mike Dunleavy...Monta Ellis? A Ellis/Jennings back court would be horrendous. Probably Not.
Boston Celtics - Not. Happening. Never.
NJ Nets - pretty sure they could use a upgrade over Morrow and Marshon. We can even take Brook Lopez of your hands while you are busy chasing Dwight. Maybe.
NY Knicks - hey, they took a chance on Sprewell after that attempted murder charge. Lin, Monta, Carmelo, Amare, Tyson. Even though basketball is played with 1 ball still. Maybe.
Philadelphia 76ers - no way they are giving us Iggy. No way. I dream too. Probably Not.
Toronto Raptors - only if Monta was from Lithuania. Certainly Monta is better than Derozan and Barbosa. Probably Not.
Dallas Mavericks - still think they need a starting 2 guard. Worst dream scenario: Monta on Dallas beating us in the playoffs. Maybe.
Houston Rockets - already have Kevin Martin ballhogging, don't need him. Nope.
Memphis Grizzlies - rumored for about 3 years. Closest to his hometown. Need scoring punch. Probably.
NO Hornets - i think a healthy Eric Gordon is what they are waiting on. Doesn't seem like a good fit. Probably Not.
San Antonio Spurs - they are getting pretty old. Spurs basketball is not Monta's style, not a good fit here either. Never.
Denver Nuggets - they are not afraid to make moves. trading carmelo, trading iverson. If we could get a Gallanari for him then most definitely. Maybe.
Minnesota T'Wolves - seems like they always need a 2 guard. Possible.
OKC Thunder - they have the best record in the league without Monta. Pretty sure they don't want to mess up the formula. Thabo starting and Harden off the bench is working good. Nope.
Portland Trail Blazers - since Roye is retired they do need help at the 2. Matthews and Crawford may be better bench players anyway, Monta could work out here. Maybe.
Utah Jazz - not to stereotype or anything. lets just say Monta isn't their kind of player they envision. Never.
LA Clippers - SoCal rivals, we wouldn't do it. Never.
LA Lakers - Kobe. Never.
Sacramento Kings - I can't really see Monta pairing with Tyreke. They seem too similar. Nope.
Phoenix Suns - I think he would be a good fit but I was reading Suns/Grant Hill said no. Nope.
Golden State Warriors - should we just keep him rendering this whole post useless.
Monta will be on the following team in 2012/2013 .......
Final Teams : Bobcats, Bulls, Pacers, Nets, Knicks, Mavericks, Grizzlies, Nuggets, T'Wolves, Blazers, Warriors
PS - Sorry about another trade Monta post. All in all, I think I am more of a Warrior fan than a Monta fan, so whatever helps the team, it's time to do it. I would rather move Beans than Monta anyways.
This FanPost is a submission from a member of the mighty Golden State of Mind community. While we're all here to throw up that W, these words do not necessarily reflect the views of the GSoM Crew. Still, chances are the preceding post is Unstoppable Baby!
148 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Charlotte with Rush
For their pick.
┈▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂┈
┈╲┉┉┉┉┉┉┉┉┉┉┉╱┈
┈╱┈◣◢▉▉◣┈┈┈┈┈╲┈
▕┈┈◤◥▉▉◤┈┈┈┈┈┈▏
▕┈┈┈┈┈┈┈◢▉▉◣◢┈▏
▕┈┈┈┈┈┈┈◥▉▉◤◥┈▏
┈╲▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂▂╱┈
T - A - N - K - M - O - D - E (that's all.)
I’m thinking right now, their best chance might be to find a contending team that’s willing to take on the payroll in an attempt to make a title run (Dallas, Orlando, Boston come to mind). I can’t see the Warriors getting a lottery pick for him. They’ll likely get offered cap space and a low first rounder, which they would turn down.
I'll just keep Monta
I still have my faith in this team. Adding a good center would make us much better. Getting absolutely nothing from the center position on a nightly basis is a huge detriment to a team. Udoh has certainly helped, as his +/- numbers show. But we need a legitimate starting threat at the 5 and I’m not too sure Ekpe is ready for that just yet. Monta’s shortcomings are highlighted due to the team consistently losing. Adding a center would help us not lose a lot more, therefore reducing the amount of criticism heaped on Muntay.
Basically what I’m saying is that a good C will change this team, shut everyone up about Monta, who will then watch and enjoy his talents on a newly-reborn, winning Warriors team.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
by dandubz on Feb 15, 2012 7:07 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Udoh has certainly helped, as his +/- numbers show.
But Monta’s consistently poor plus-minus results, over a much larger sample, don’t show anything?
shut everyone up about Monta
Maybe when he stops being a bad defender, bad rebounder, and inefficient scorer with a consistently negative impact on the team? Till then, expect fans who actually care about winning games to keep keeping it real.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 15, 2012 8:15 PM PST up reply actions
What’s interesting is….
Curry-monta-dorell-lee-biedrins is a -0.04 on offensive/defensive ppp
However
Curry-monta-dorell-lee-udoh, curry-monta-rush-lee-udoh are HUGE plus’ (similar sample size for each)
Infact even with Kwame it was a +.
So while Monta could do better, I am inclined to believe, while he has his limitations, and tends to do too much, the context of the team has a lot to do with it.
Maybe when he stops being a bad defender, bad rebounder, and inefficient scorer with a consistently negative impact on the team? Till then, expect fans who actually care about winning games to keep keeping it real.
Maybe when he stops being a bad defender, bad rebounder, and inefficient scorer with a consistently negative impact on the team?
A consistently negative impact? Please. You say that as if the W’s would have won many more games without him. I attribute Monta’s inefficiency to the absolute lack of a “team” around him. If you wanna “keep keeping real” then you’d realize that the extreme amount of deficiencies on this team is contributing to the team sucking more than Monta’s shortcomings. Monta is NOT the problem. No player is perfect. Every player has some bad qualities or an area of ineffectiveness that they bring to the team. The fact that those teams are winning overshadow those negative effects. Not one person in New York is complaining about Jeremy Lin’s ridiculous amount of TO’s because they’re winning. Lakers fans aren’t too worried about their lack of a backcourt, because they’re winning. If the Warriors had a good C and a winning record (or even just a winning record for that matter) Ellis would’t be as scrutinized and everyone would just be enjoying the 22ppg’s and 6 assists he’s giving us.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
A consistently negative impact?
Yep.
RAPM the last three seasons2009/10: -3.4
2010/11: -2.9
2011/12: -1.7
two year adjusted plus-minus
-5.6
Check out his teammates for the sake of comparison. None of them are as consistently negative as he is. Also, check out some other players who you consider studs. I suspect you’ll find they’re all consistently positive.
You say that as if the W’s would have won many more games without him.
I’m not saying it as if anything — I’m just reporting a fact. The team has performed significantly better without him than with him. We can’t say for sure how many more games they would have won without him.
If you wanna "keep keeping real" then you’d realize that the extreme amount of deficiencies on this team is contributing to the team sucking more than Monta’s shortcomings. Monta is NOT the problem.
This gets repeated a lot here. No one is saying he’s the problem. However, scoring inefficiently, rebounding your position poorly, and defending your position poorly are problems. I don’t think there’s a single highly effective player in the NBA who fails on all three of these counts.
Not one person in New York is complaining about Jeremy Lin’s ridiculous amount of TO’s because they’re winning.
Well, that, and the fact that Lin is also playing really well: scoring efficiently and rebounding his position, for example, neither of which Monta does consistently. As one might expect, in a small sample size, Lin’s plus-minus numbers are also through the roof.
Lakers fans aren’t too worried about their lack of a backcourt, because they’re winning
I haven’t checked out SS&R lately, but I feel pretty confident that no one there is too happy with the fact that Derek Fisher and Metta World Peace are dragging the team from elite status to just kinda good. The team is winning, but they’d almost certainly be winning a lot more if they replaced those two jokers with players who weren’t terrible at basketball. Similarly, if the Warriors magically got Dwight Howard while Monta continued to demonstrate poor efficiency, poor defense, poor rebounding, and poor plus-minus results, I’d keep keeping it real (though I’d almost certainly be a lot less cranky overall!)
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 8:39 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Check out his teammates for the sake of comparison. None of them are as consistently negative as he is. Also, check out some other players who you consider studs. I suspect you’ll find they’re all consistently positive.
seriously outside of the high scoring, inefficient chuckers on bad teams, is there a single supposed “star” with a consistently negative RAPM?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
sleepy, your responses to this stuff make me feel like a drunken toddler trying to explain quantum mechanics to a delusional monkey
in other words, nice eloquent, succinct responses
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 17, 2012 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Let me ask you this
Say Dwight Howard gets traded for Curry and fillers (Otis Smith got the call when he was drunk) and we win the championship with a roster of Ellis, Rush/Thompson, Wright, Lee, and Dwight. Do you still want to trade Mahnteigh Ellis at that point? Or will the fact that they just won the championship overshadow the fact that he can’t “rebound well for his position”?
Stats don’t really capture the whole picture. WIth Monta being the best player on the team for the past 5 seasons, and the team having many gaping holes in the roster and a flawed coaching staff/ownership group, its no wonder he was playing 40 minutes a game and chucking up all those shots. The ball was always in his hands. This year, Monta has deferred much more which has helped his numbers: 103.9 PP100P with him on the bench compared to 105.8 PP100P with him on the floor. Now, his RAPM for this season is a -1.7 like you mentioned, but again, stats don’t tell the whole story…
Picture this, Monta defends his man, swipes and misses, he blows by to the hoop and goes up. Now, at this point, Andris Biedrins would have hopefully filled the lane and try to block, but he sucks, so he does nothing, basket scored, and Monta’s numbers are affected. Imagine said scenario again, replacing Biedrins with Howard. As you might imagine, Howard’s defense is much better than Biedrins, and would therefore result in a higher likelihood of the shot not going in, therefore not impacting Monta’s numbers. In fact, this scenario also increases defensive rebounds attained by the Warriors, which would mean a lot of Howard dishing out to Monta on the break, thus increasing both his effeciency and +/ – numbers.
In fact, it would probably increase his assists as well. Monta’s favorite thing to do is penetrate and dish around defenders under the hoop, who better than Dwight Howard to catch and finish with those passes.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
Say Dwight Howard gets traded for Curry and fillers (Otis Smith got the call when he was drunk) and we win the championship with a roster of Ellis, Rush/Thompson, Wright, Lee, and Dwight.
i can guarantee you that that roster does not win the championship
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Your guarantee is oh so valueable.
I actually roster of Ellis, Thompson, Rush(instead of Wright), Lee and Howard coached by Popovic win a C.
WIth Monta being the best player on the team for the past 5 seasons, and the team having many gaping holes in the roster and a flawed coaching staff/ownership group, its no wonder he was playing 40 minutes a game and chucking up all those shots.
i honestly dont see how monta was the best player on our team in any of the past 5 seasons
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
i honestly dont see how monta was the best player on our team in any of the past 5 seasons
by default cause we don’t have a player worth calling a best player. We got Montay and a bunch of followers.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 17, 2012 7:45 PM PST up reply actions
Picture this, Monta defends his man, swipes and misses, he blows by to the hoop and goes up. Now, at this point, Andris Biedrins would have hopefully filled the lane and try to block, but he sucks, so he does nothing, basket scored, and Monta’s numbers are affected.
you mean…you don’t think that monta letting a guy blow by him should affect his numbers?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Having Dwight back there
would only mean Monta goes for more steals and plays more riskier defense because he KNOWS somebody will be back there to cover his behind.
I agree the bigger problem is Biedrins. Sadly, when someone doesn’t do their job, it actually makes someone else lose their jobs. Like at my job, when my high payed so it all boss got laid off, I was like, “I can’t believe they got rid of you and kept me”. That’s the Monta/Biedrins issue.
Tuck Rule my ass!
lol @ people who cherry-pick quotes
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
i read what you wrote
you basically said that monta should be considered a better defender if he has better defenders behind him. this is completely untrue.
if a guy gets blown by every single time, but his defense behind him saves him every single time, that clearly does not make him a good defender
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
also, do you understand how RAPM works?
quality of teammates and quality of opponents are adjusted for
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Not at all.
Nowhere did i say or imply Monta should be considered a better defender. Monta does not get blown by every time. Im saying that when that player does slip by Monta, having Dwight instead of Biedrins drastically improves your chances of the basket not being scored, thereby not affecting his numbers negatively. He’s no less a bad defender. Carmelo Anthony is a horrid defender but his APM or RAPM won’t tell you that
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
you're missing the A in APM
it stands for ADJUSTED.
That means that Monta’s numbers would be very similar whether Beans or Dwight is protecting the paint.
Would the Warriors be better at defense with Monta on the floor, if DH12 were too? of course. But, even with Howard controlling the paint, the Dubs would still be better defensively with monta OFF the court.
Can’t repeat it enough. ADJUSTED
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
I UNDERSTAND THIS
MONTA ELIIS IS A REALLY BAD DEFENDER. I promise you we’re on the same page there.
HOWEVER
Monta’s defensive deficiencies are overshadowed when someone like DWIGHT is in the paint helping out.
Sure, we might be better defensively with Monta off the court, because Monta is a BAD DEFENDER.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
exactly!
so what are you arguing? That we should hide all of monta’s deficiencies with better players? because that’s a fruitless point if you’re trying to argue that Monta’s a good player.
if you’re trying to say that monta has a positive impact on the team, saying that we should cover up for him doesn’t really help…
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
The problem is that even having someone who can clean up Monta' s messes doesn't solve the problem.
If Monta plays matador defense, and Dwight has to move to cover for him, then Dwight’s guy is open. That’s the whole idea of drive-and-dish. And yes, obviously, the more passes you can force the other team to make to get a clean shot, the better off you are.
But you’re still dealing with a defense breakdown caused by the one-on-one penetration. It’s not like that problem doesn’t happen. Better if Dwight has to leave his man to cover up for Monta less often.
That means that Monta’s numbers would be very similar whether Beans or Dwight is protecting the paint.
haha, a stat that thinks that is true is delusional.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 17, 2012 7:47 PM PST up reply actions
what I meant by numbers was the difference between him being on and off the court.
In other words, if on defense we’re 5 points per 100 possessions better with Monta on the bench, that’s going to still be the same even if we acquire dwight howard.
The point being monta has a poor defensive impact on the team. even if we were a good defensive team, his impact would be negative.
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
It’s called block-quoting. The feature exists for a reason: it often helps readers understand the specific point you’re addressing. If you feel the intent of your post has been misrepresented or cherrypicked, feel free to say why. Otherwise, you should be glad that other posters are reading your arguments carefully and challenging you to be thoughtful, coherent, and reality-based.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 1:45 PM PST up reply actions
Quoting myself for Skeptic:
It’s called block-quoting. The feature exists for a reason.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 1:46 PM PST up reply actions
hah
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
It’s called block-quoting. The feature exists for a reason.
I thought that’s what the subject line was for, no?
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 20, 2012 9:46 AM PST up reply actions
I thought that’s what the subject line was for, no?
Sure. ;-P
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 20, 2012 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
LOL
I don’t know who started it, but the subversion of the subject line is well under way around here
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 20, 2012 2:18 PM PST up reply actions
I understand very well how block quoting works. However taking one portion of an argument without acknowledge another (as kino did above), then twisting and attacking my point is a tad frustrating. If one was to read what he had quoted from my post, one would think that I am making 1 point, when in fact, if the context of the post was accredited for, you would find out that I am making a whole different point that what was originally thought.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
Fair enough. I actually didn’t read what bigkino quoted carefully enough to see how well it represented the entirety of your post.
(See, I’m smart and humble!!!!) ;-P
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 2:25 PM PST up reply actions
please explain to me how i twisted your words
your 2nd “scenario” is supporting your first “scenario”, making the point that monta’s wouldn’t look so bad defensively if he had dwight covering for him. OBVIOUSLY that is the case. however, that was not your initial argument. your initial argument was that monta is not a problem for this team. however, if we need to find players that cover his deficiencies, then he clearly is a problem. notice the word “a”, not the word “the”.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
this team has plenty of problems
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Ok.
“Not looking bad defensively”, and “being a better defender” (which is what you thought I said), in my eyes, are two completely different things. If it was OBVIOUS that Dwight covering for Monta wouldn’t make him look bad defensively, then what the hell are you arguing with me for? Because that’s the point I’ve been making the whole time.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
i'm arguing with your initial argument
Monta is NOT the problem.
he is a problem. he’s bad defensively. if you need to bring someone in that can cover for him for him to be able to work, then that is a problem.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
He's not the problem
There is not one shooting guard you can replace Monta with that will take this team to the playoffs/ be a contender. However if you replace Biedrins with Howard, you INSTANTLY have a playoff team/ outside contender.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
this is ridiculous
Howard is the only HoF center in the league. of course he’ll make us way better.
You know who else would make us better? Kobe Bryant. Or LBJ playing shooting guard.
We’re 11-15. There’s no one problems. there are lots of problems. Monta is incontrovertibly one of them.
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
This IS ridiculous
Howard was thrown in to make a point for Sleepy. I didn’t even reference him in my original post. You are right, there are lots of problems, but Monta is not the biggest one. The addressing of other problems will help smooth out Monta’s problem. I don’t know how many times i have to rephrase and repeat but I’m juuuust about done lol.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
bq, There is not one shooting guard you can replace Monta with that will take this team to the playoffs/ be a contender.
for SG’s, wade, kobe, and healthy manu get us into the playoffs and plenty of others arguably do. i could also say i’d move rush or klay to SG and addi almost any other superstar. that would get us into the playoffs too.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
that blockquote failed
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
main point
just because upgrading to dwight would get us into the playoffs does not mean that our only problem is at C. lebron or kd would make us contenders, but clearly that doesn’t mean that dorell is our only problem.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
that blockquote failed
this one din’t
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 17, 2012 7:49 PM PST up reply actions
There is not one shooting guard you can replace Monta with that will take this team to the playoffs/ be a contender.
Well Howard’s the best or at worst second-best player in the league. If you replaced Monta with LeBron (and played LeBron at shooting guard), you’d also INSTANTLY have a playoff team/outside contender, imo. Curry and his Akron BFF would make a ridiculously good tandem.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 3:28 PM PST up reply actions
Ok Replace Howard with Hibbert/Bynum/Noah/Asik/Bogut/Jefferson
My point still remains. This teams MAIN problem is a lack of interior presence. Idk why everyone is hung-up on the Howard reference.. I was using him to make a point and picked him cause he’s obviously the best and would prove my point to an extreme. ANY good center will do Sure.. Lebron, KD, Kobe.. all those guys… they’re superstars and will make us great. but they’re not where the problem lies. We need a good center. THATS our problem.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
Hibbert/Bynum/Noah/Asik/Bogut/Jefferson
Wow, those are some wildly diverse cases. I’d guess flipping Biedrins for Bynum upgrades the team a ton. I’m not sure Biedrins for Jefferson upgrades the team at all. If anything, I think it’d be subtraction by addition. (Al Jefferson sucks).
I don’t think any of them represents as nearly much of an upgrade as the upgrade from Monta to LeBron on the wing.
A roundabout way of saying: yes, lack of an interior presence is a big impediment to our becoming a winning team, but it’s not as big an impediment as lack of an elite player, at any position.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 3:53 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah I did throw some curveballs..
An elite player, at any position besides the C significantly changes the construction of our team. Say, Lebron did join. That would obviously make him the #1 option on the team, thereby deferring Monta to 2, Curry to 3, and Lee to 4. Well, David Lee is a capable 20 ppg player, and having him as a 4th option in scoring is more or less a waste.
However, the addition of an elite C doesn’t necessarily impede the offensive flow of Monta-Curry-Lee. A Howard/Hibbert/Noah/Bynum type Center can be a 4th option on the offense and succeed. (probably would be last because of Dorell) This gives us what we need by keeping the current construction of the team and adding pieces where it lacks.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
Also
Salary cap wise, I think Hibbert and Asik, who are both FA’s this year, are attainable. Asik for 8-9 mil or Hibbert with a backloaded starting at 12. And once Biedrins’ dead weight comes off the books, thats 9 million we can use to shore up the bench. I think that makes our team a lot better and its a very realistic way to improve the team.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
simply put, yes, he does
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
as has been mentioned before
a typical center needs to be able to do 3 things. score, rebound, and defend.
al jefferson is a low efficiency chucker, meaning he is not a good scorer, he is an average rebounder, and he is completely terrible at defense.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
picture a much less efficient david lee (who is pretty average)
and you have al jefferson
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
maybe thats not fair
david lee is a capable passer as well. jefferson is not.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
so he averages 20 and 10
shoots 50 percent, but doesn’t get to the line and so he sucks? Do you know what the word “sucks” means? He is indisputably a very good scorer, he may be an average rebounder who is lucky enough for the ball to find his hands roughly 10 times a game, and is a mediocre defender. Your unwavering docking of Monta and Lee does not scale and neither does your docking of Jefferson. This would make more sense if you were a Laker fan or something who is so used to having great centers and guards. All 3 are good players. There are good reasons to argue that these players’ numbers are inflated in relation to their “real” value, but to say that these guys suck is crazy.
you do realize that a center shooting under 50% is terrible
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
He is indisputably a very good scorer,
No, actually, we all dispute that. He’s a mediocre scorer who gets a ton of shots.
he may be an average rebounder who is lucky enough for the ball to find his hands roughly 10 times a game,
Fascinating how 9.2 got rounded up to “roughly ten,” there … but his per/36 is in fact close to 10, so I won’t pick nits except to say the difference between 9 and 10 rebounds is not trivial.
So let me ask you, what’s average for an NBA center?
much less than what Jefferson gives you
Jefferson is a volume shooter, an agile center who is a terrific player. His biggest flaw is his inability to get to the line. But you guys are relentless with calling players who aren’t uber efficient cause Jefferson is a top 10 center easily.
his biggest flaw is that he's a godawful defender
and he’s also an inefficient black hole on offense
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Top 10 center easily?
Dwight
Pau
Bynum
Tyson Chandler
Nene
Joakim Noah
Al Horford
Tim Duncan
Marc Gasol
Chuck Hayes
Marcus Camby
Greg Monroe
Emeka Okafor
Marcin Gortat
DeAndre Jordan
Javale McGee
Greg Monroe
Anderson Varejao
That’s 18 players who are unambiguously better than Jefferson. Of course, they don’t all score as much. But we haven’t even gotten into the nit-picky stuff, guys who might be a little better.
Let me guess, your definition of “best” is almost entirely dependent on PPG, right?
i bet its a combination of PPG, RPG, and BPG
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
But his RPG - as discussed above - isn't really that good.
It’s not really that good even when you apply the mysterious “improve it by 10%” rounding that Salary_cap somehow managed to pull off.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 21, 2012 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
the RPG doesn't look bad
it’s the reb/36 where he starts falling behind a lot of the others
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
especially when you starting getting into arguing the guys like asik.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
First of all, it's not "half a rebound"
(funny how you always round in a way that makes your argument … hm).
Secondly, somebody being 10% a better rebounder is not trivial just because the difference comes down to less than one rebound per game.
It seems like your logic consists of “these are small numbers, so they don’t matter.” That’s a really stupid way to approach a statistical argument – and let’s be really clear: you are making a statistical argument here.
no its not
its actually from watching him play scaled with other factors like FG %, team, the ability to get “his” shot in the low post etc.
the ability to get "his" shot in the low post etc.
I, too, possess a remarkable ability to get “my” shot in the lost post.
oddly enough, a no-look backwards bounce shot through my own legs just doesn’t go in very often. Really strange.
getting your shot doesn’t make you a good player. there’s this weird part about making it that counts, too. Just ask Monta Ellis.
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
Monta Ellis does not get "his" shot
often enought; that ‘s part of his problem. Too often defenders push him off his shot. Getting “your” shot is the most important skill good scorers have. Great scorers don’t make a living off hitting tough shots (though they can); they make a living off of getting “their” shot so remarkably often. Your reference to a horse game type shot is senseless but cute.
its actually from watching him play scaled with other factors like FG %, team, the ability to get "his" shot in the low post etc.
you know that his FG is bad for a C right?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
is Chandler a better offensive player cause
he is shooting 70%? No, he’s not. All it takes is watching both play.
he may be a "minus" player when factoring his defense,
but offensively his a more gifted and more productive center than most of those guys.
he may score more than most of those guys on offense, but he also hurts his own teams offense more than most of those guys
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
really
That’s 18 players who are unambiguously better than Jefferson
This is insane. First, it’s futile for both of us to throw out the generic word “better” with these players since their are two ends of the court and so many different aspects of the game at each end. Saying Jefferson is a “black hole” on offense and that he sucks is stupid. He’s a more skilled and talented offensive player than more than half of those names you mentioned. Where that stacks him when you account for his defense is in many ways a futile enterprise, but the only thing that is objectively and unambiguously clear is that he DOES NOT SUCK. Shooting 50% from the field at C does not make you a shitty player.
You made a claim that he was CLEARLY a top 10 center.
Now I actually provided a list of names and you’re not even going to engage on it?
Shooting 50% from the field at C does not make you a shitty player.
You do understand how that’s below average for a center, right? If you’re going to hang your hat on a statistical argument, you should at least have some clue as to what the numbers you’re saying mean.
That’s part of what makes this so funny – you’re hanging your hat on a statistic which actually suggests that he’s not very good, and you seem to think it means he is good.
He’s a more skilled and talented offensive player than more than half of those names you mentioned.
you fail to understand that talent does not directly relate to how good you are. I would posit that Kobe is a far more talented player than Dwight Howard, Durant, or DWade. But he is not a better player.
Half of the battle is the talent you half. Half of the battle is how you use it.
And, like Ronaldinho is pointing out, the statistic you’re blindly using doesn’t even support your case! 50% for a C is not good. So use the “he has an array of moves and scores lots” argument all you want, but that doesn’t mean he’s a good player.
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
This teams MAIN problem is a lack of interior presence.
I think people agree with this, for the most part. This team’s biggest hole is at center. We can upgrade our center position with adding a lower-quality player than it would take to upgrade any other position.
On the other hand, when you look at Monta’s numbers of the last couple of years, it’s hard to come away with anything but the conclusion that SG is a pretty big hole on the roster, too.
Back to the numbers again?
Refer to all my above posts
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
i think he is
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
as much as you think he might be
biedrins is not a bad defender, he’s a pretty average defender. his problem is offense, but that’s another story. the problem is, there are very few centers that are good enough defensively to be able to cover monta’s deficiencies, and it’s not likely that we can get one of those very easily. that sounds like a pretty significant problem to me.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Say Dwight Howard gets traded for Curry and fillers (Otis Smith got the call when he was drunk) and we win the championship with a roster of Ellis, Rush/Thompson, Wright, Lee, and Dwight. Do you still want to trade Mahnteigh Ellis at that point? Or will the fact that they just won the championship overshadow the fact that he can’t "rebound well for his position"
sorry, but you need to learn how to argue. This is the equivalent of saying “if monta started having positive numbers, would he still have negative numbers?”
Take it from someone who’s listened to Sleepy for many years. Sleepy is smart and humble. If Monta’s numbers ever drastically change, Sleepy will not deny this. If we ever are a championship caliber team and Monta is a large reason for it, I promise you Sleepy won’t be telling you he’s having a negative impact. If Monta has a statistically negative impact, Sleepy will tell you he has a statistically negative impact. If he has a statistically positive impact, Sleepy will tell you he has a statistically positive impact. Really not that difficult to grasp.
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
Say Dwight Howard gets traded for Curry and fillers (Otis Smith got the call when he was drunk) and we win the championship with a roster of Ellis, Rush/Thompson, Wright, Lee, and Dwight. Do you still want to trade Mahnteigh Ellis at that point? Or will the fact that they just won the championship overshadow the fact that he can’t "rebound well for his position"?
Here’s the question: is that a championship roster?
It’s not if Monta is constantly taking shots that should be going to Dwight – and Monta has a bad habit (improved some this year, but not eliminated) of taking a ton of shots when the team has better options on offense.
It’s not if Monta is dominating the ball and not letting the offense flow around him. That’s been a consistent problem when Monta dominates the ball too much. Monta is at his best when he’s moving off the ball, and lots of player motion is creating opportunities for him to exploit. When he’s on the ball too much, everything gets stagnant and Monta ends up taking much worse shots.
It’s also not a championship team if Monta is aggressively double-teamed. Monta has demonstrated that he can’t bring the ball up the court under heavy pressure, and he’s also shown that he gets discombobulated easily with an aggressive double-team in the half-court set. He doesn’t keep his cool and find the open man – it gets ugly and turnovers result.
Ellis, Rush/Thompson Wright and Lee is a group of wings without a point, in other words, with all the problems you’d expect that lineup to have. Is Dwight good enough that he carries that group into the playoffs? Absolutely. Is it a championship team? Probably not.
All great points
I dont’ necessarily think its a championship team either, I was using that more for argument’s sake.
It’s not if Monta is dominating the ball and not letting the offense flow around him. That’s been a consistent problem when Monta dominates the ball too much. Monta is at his best when he’s moving off the ball, and lots of player motion is creating opportunities for him to exploit. When he’s on the ball too much, everything gets stagnant and Monta ends up taking much worse shots.
Couldn’t agree more.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
keep keeping it real.
Chappelle show reference
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
Haha. I knew I should have steered clear of that cliché…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 1:47 PM PST up reply actions
Monta to Chicity
Straight up for Noah. Chicago needs the offense and a capable ballhandler w/o DRose. We need a center. Makes sense with both teams. Plus Chicago have Ronnie Brewer a good defensive shooting guard and Omer Asik, who can play the center position really well defensively.
This is a win/win
But Chicago won’t consider ‘deflating’ inside midseason.
Perhaps if we threw in Kwame, so they’d have an additional big for playoff run, but to make it work financially would be difficult.
—
If we did do this, we better be shopping Andris for ANY sort of expiring contracts. We can’t be paying 9 mil for a back up.
One Team for Sure.....
And they are owned by Lacob and Guber.
Who even wants Monta?
I’d like to had some Montay in the 4th quarter of tonight’s game.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 16, 2012 12:02 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
Without Monta is what exactly happened in the 4th quarter today
All 3pt shooters with no player being able to penetrate while getting a layup, a foul, or dishing it to Lee for a easy basket or kicking it out to a open 3pt shooter. Those are things Monta do when he ain’t taking bad shot selections. With Curry, Klay, Rush no one can get open, because were just passing it around in the perimeter, none of them create their own shot or drive to the basket. I just don’t see how dumping Monta for anything but a center would help this team.
Of course, Monta did play in the 3rd quarter ...
… and that’s when our offense sputtered the worst.
But by all means, let’s go with the simple analysis. Monta not on the floor = dead offense.
He played in the 1st and 2nd quarter too..
no offensive problems at all.
where's the... WHERE'S THE 24-SECOND VIOLATION!?!- Bob Fitzgerald
Monta Ellis.
True.
But of course my point wasn’t that Monta = dead offense.
My point was that no Monta = Dead offense is silly.
So what happened in the first two quarters doesn’t really challenge that, does it?
I ask myself this question every day.
by Doctor Kajita on Feb 16, 2012 12:03 AM PST via mobile reply actions
TGhink you're somewhat wrong
I think most these teams would love Monta. Monta @ 1 with JJ in Atlanta.
Minnesota next to Rubio etc.
But the question is at what cost, and it seems we’re not getting anywhere near his value to us, on the market.
Not sure you can exclude Boston.
If they go into rebuild mode they’re likely to move Allen and Garnett (they might keep Pierce, though).
I'm surprised they are not more involved in Dwight sweepstakes
They only have Rondo and Peirce on the books next year.
They could offer a host of expirings + some youth for Dwight + hedo.
I want Monta to stay
does anybody realize that he’s our best player and that when hes not in the game our offense goes to poop? last nights game was a perfect example of our stagnant our offense gets without him.
does anybody realize that he’s our best player and that when hes not in the game our offense goes to poop?
Probably not, because that opinion is not borne out by the facts. Last season the offense scored 108.2 points per 100 possessions with Monta on the bench and 107.7 with him in the game (-0.5). The year before last they scored 112.9 points with him on the bench and 105.4 with him in the game (-7.5). This season he’s been a very slight positive: 103.9 with him on the bench compared to 105.8 with him in the game (+1.9). Still, he’s had a much less positive impact on the offense than Lee, Rush, Udoh, Robinson, or Curry. That shouldn’t be a huge surprise when you look at his poor scoring efficiency this season (.513 ts%).
Overall, it’s being generous to Monta to say that he has had essentially zero positive effect on the offense over the past three seasons. Factor in his extremely negative impact on defense (half the game), and you have a player who contributes to losing more than he does to winning.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 16, 2012 9:04 AM PST up reply actions
team defense.
advanced stats suck, basketball is a team game. attempting to statistically control for the effect of the rest of the team on a player’s individual performance doesn’t ACTUALLY work.
I’m sure it’s a flawed measure. However, given Monta’s demonstrably poor efficiency on offense, it shouldn’t come as a surprise that the team has performed no better with him on the floor than off. Defense is notoriously harder to measure than scoring efficiency, but we’ve now got years of evidence that strongly suggests that Monta’s impact on that end is extremely negative.
I mean nothing is ever going to be totally conclusive. But when the case against Monta being a highly productive player consists of all the available evidence, where the case against consists mostly of the say-so of a passionate group of Monta fans, it should at least make you think twice.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 16, 2012 10:30 AM PST up reply actions
*
the caseagainstfor consists mostly of the say-so of a passionate group of Monta fans
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 16, 2012 10:38 AM PST up reply actions
Fine.
Use your eyeballs:
Monta missees a tremendous number of shots. Do those not count?
Monta plays horrid defense – do you actually watch him on that end of the court?
Monta plays horrid defense – do you actually watch him on that end of the court?
Does he, or does our team CONTINUALLY break down, he goes over to ball (you can call this a mistake, but it goes both ways) and team is able to rotate to open man.
Both.
Monta plays matador defense and gambles for steals.
He has a hard time challenging the shot of taller players.
That’s bad defense whether or not you have a competent defense behind you.
He does though
So many times when our defensive rotations breakdown, it’s on Monta.
Just watch for it during games. When you see guys getting wide open looks, it’s a safe bet that Monta was involved…usually this is because he won’t rotate, or he’ll pick the wrong man (last night there was a play where dorell rotated out to cover the corner three, monta just either didnt recognize or was too lazy to chase all the way out…boom open three)
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 16, 2012 12:06 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
No dispute from me that all three are horrid on defense
I was mostly referring to switching and close outs
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 16, 2012 9:13 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Curry definitely closes out better
Monta lets people take the shot way too much. But Lee almost never closes out. Every once in awhile he’ll make an attempt to do, but it’s almost pointless, since he always gets there late. Monta is also better at staying in front and getting a hand up on a shooter off the dribble.
As for switches, I’ll have to pay more attention to their individual defense there, but for the most part, I don’t think any of the 3 know how to defend a pick and roll. Curry goes under the screen too much, Monta goes over it too much, and Lee is absolutely terrible at hedging. That’s really the only place we see consistent switching with this team, and it’s almost always for the worse (for instance, Nate ending up on bigs nearly every time there was a pick and roll vs Phoenix).
http://nbawarriors.wordpress.com/
maybe curry appears to get beat more because he closes out better
whereas monta let’s them take the shot so they don’t blow by him.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Lee is really bad at defense, too.
However, saying Lee is really bad at defense isn’t a meaningful defense of Monta’s bad defense. Point conceded (on Lee, at least.).
Curry is interesting because he certainly doesn’t look good at defense, but all the reasonable statistical measures show a much smaller negative effect than Curry or Lee. Whether that’s because he’s better at rotating, because PG defense doesn’t matter that much, or what … I don’t know. But when you look at things like EFG% against, RAPM, etc … Curry isn’t necessarily good, but he doesn’t come across like the unmitigated disaster that Monta and Lee do.
Duby seemed to be suggesting more of our defensive issues start with Monta
I was disagreeing. I didn’t say that Curry and Lee being bad at defense gives Monta a pass. If anything, it only makes it worse.
http://nbawarriors.wordpress.com/
I'm not gonna talk about his entire career
but this season Monta has been affecting games with his defensive effort even when he isn’t scoring at a high clip. Even though Monta is NOT the worst defensive starter in the backcourt, the defense has been pretty good about forcing difficult shots this season. The real problem on that end has been securing defensive rebounds, which I’d blame more on the lack of inside presence and atrocious rebounding from the only perimeter player with length. And based on the eye test, Monta does one thing that is critical to success in the NBA that nobody else on the Warriors does, which is attack the basket and create high percentage shots either for himself or his teammates. His assist numbers are of course being cheated by the fact that the warriors lack an inside scoring threat. Curry is a nicer passer, I will agree, but he gets most of his assists on lower percentage shots (ie made 3s off skip passes) or the pick and roll (pop), which anybody could run successfully with David Lee.
Even though Monta is NOT the worst defensive starter in the backcourt, the defense has been pretty good about forcing difficult shots this season.
Maybe. Maybe not. Monta’s RAPM defensively this year is -1.6, which is pretty bad – and improvement from last year, sure, but still pretty bad. (This may reflect the simple fact that Monta is physically overmatched at his position, no matter how much effort he gives.)
Curry’s RAPM this year, despite battling an injury which you would think would have a big impact on his ability to play defense, is +.1
Ellis’s EFG% against this year at the shooting guard position is better than it was last year (it’s dropped from .520 to .508. On the other hand, he’s fouling slightly more, and a .508 EFG% against is still really bad, and with FG% down across the league this year, it’s not clear how much of that change is Monta and how much is the lack of camp hurting offenses.
Curry’s opponents EFG% at the point guard position has dropped a similar amount (about .015) and he’s fouling less this year, too.
None of these stats are conclusive, and even if Curry’s defense was unambiguously worse, it wouldn’t somehow make Monta’s better. But a statement like yours, above turns out to be probably just not true, at least if you’re judging how players defend their primary position.
advanced stats suck, basketball is a team game.
this is a very specious argument. At the end of the day, the whole may be greater than the sum of its parts, but the whole is still affected by each individual part. If we analyze an individual within the team context we can see how they are affecting the whole.
Imagine if I joined Wu-Tang Clan. Would they still be good? Heck yes they’d still be good, because RZA, Ghostface, Method Man, Raekwon et al are a darn good crew. Ignoring the rest of the Clan for simplicities sake, imagine a track with those four and me on it. Would it be a good song? yes. Because, as a whole, it would be a positive number if you could quantify lyrical talent. But if you were to break it down, examine each individual instead of the whole, you’d see that RZA and Method Man’s verses were good, Ghostface and Raekwon’s verses were really good, and my verse sucked. Their verses were good enough to negate mine, meaning the “team” song was good regardless, but analyzing my verse would show that the song would be stronger if I were replaced by, say, Ol’ Dirty Bastard.
I hope this is a poor analogy, because I tend to think that I’m actually a pretty decent rapper. But you see the point? Throw Justin Bieber on a track from the Kanye and Jay-Z CD and it’s still a good joint. But you can analyze the individual components to see what constituents are benefiting the whole, and which individuals are hiding behind those that carry the team.
Basketball is a team game, yes. But a team is composed of individuals. Each individual has an affect on the team.
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
by bradyk2 on Feb 16, 2012 3:45 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
+1
i actually still disagree with you, but come on you made it about the Wu… that is an auto-rec for me
Care to elaborate?
Seems like a pretty solid analogy…leading to a solid conclusion
what part does not have you convinced?
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 16, 2012 9:16 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
vocal performances
are entirely individual. Raekwon’s verse would not in any way affect the quality of brady’s verse. This particular analogy doesn’t work at all. Music does, though. A better analogy would be a band, because a band in comprised of multiple instruments working together simultaneously toward the larger purpose of a song. You can’t measure the quality of a guitar player from a band with a shitty drummer very well, because the drummer’s inability to keep time adversely affects all of the other instruments around him. Even if you isolate the guitar track, it may sound as if the guitarist cannot keep rhythm due to trying to play in sync with other bandmates who also cannot keep time.
fair enough
that analogy is better. But I can’t help but notice that you making my metaphor stronger just made my argument stronger… ;)
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
it would serve to bolster your argument, barring one detail
The point I was trying to illustrate with the band example is that you cannot “control” for the group to look at the individual’s performance because the individual plays WITHIN the group. If the guitarist is playing along with a drummer who cannot maintain a rhythm, even if you drop all the other tracks to only hear the guitar it will sound as though that guitar is being played out of rhythm.
haha
glad you liked the analogy. though I’m with Duby here, I’d curious as to how you disagree (not that you’re not entitled to disagree, i’m just wondering what your reasoning is)
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
there are a few teams out there that could benefit from monta
if and only if they run their offense with a distributing PG that keeps Monta off the ball… (remember tat guy Baron?)
I’m looking at teams like:
Indiana (Collision) – At this point, I’d do straight up for granger, bench dorrell as the sixth man, and start Rush at the 2.
Boston (Rondo) – No way they start their rebuild process with a rondo/ellis tandem
LAC (Paul) – Paul/Ellis/Butler/Griffin/Jordan would be mighty scary. We could never trade him to a contender
NY – They got that guy Lin. I hear he’s good at that.
Cavs: Irving is Chris Paul Jr. Monta in Cleveland could actually be a nice step forward for them. It could net us a lotto pick too
Minny: Because Kahn would be dumb enough
Other than that, most teams don’t see much value
Other than that, I dont see much value in
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
that point guard has to also be big enough to guard 2s
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
What about the Nyets!?
They seem pretty foolish, maybe we could trick them into thinking that monta and DWill convinces Dwight to come
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 16, 2012 6:55 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Granger?
Dude is falling off the last few years, not what he used to be
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
Is anyone else feeling that Monta isn't feeling Mark Jackson too?
Mark Jackson has demonstrating he WILL bench his ass. Not sure if Monta is used to that. He kind of has that look on his face like his time is up here.
I think GM’s consider him risky, stemming back from that damn moped accident. Monta is the type that will make fans excited, but make GM’s lose their jobs.
Tuck Rule my ass!
I think GM’s consider him risky, stemming back from that damn moped accident. Monta is the type that will make fans excited, but make GM’s lose their jobs.
I think most GM’s see him as a nice player who can help them off the bench or as a supplemental scoring option.
Teams DONT break up there core for these players.
And in almost ALL cases, we’re asking for a core piece.
They are just trying to get an opportunistic trade like Dallas’ acquisition of Terry, Marion, Chandler or Lakers with Pau
In our case, we'll probably get something back like Speedy Claxton and Dale Davis
Tuck Rule my ass!
by Raidah on Feb 16, 2012 12:47 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think Curry is too high on him either...
…. starters getting benched in crunch time. Nate running (and gunning) the offense with Curry and Lee not involved and Monta on the bench (sick or not, I guarantee he was ready to play… no one can doubt Monta’s heart no matter what you think of his game).
The downfall of hiring a rookie coach (Jackson may be great someday) is that he has something to prove. Unlike Phil Jackson, MJ won’t put his trust in his players. Smart was a horrible micromanager, and I was hoping MJ wouldn’t be the same.
by warriorsablaze on Feb 16, 2012 1:51 PM PST up reply actions
Trading Monta....
I personally think that we need more than just an upgrade at center. We need a defensive minded center, Kwame played well in his 9 games altering shots…thinking of a guy like that just at a higher volume. We also need a true point guard (I.e.: Raymond felton, Ty lawson etc.) I think we should trade curry not ellis. Ellis is clearly the face of this franchise and I think curry has more value. We should look to unload curry for either an elite wing preferably with length (Rudy Gay) or a big time center. Throw in whoever else is necessary to make that happen. in the off-season then we draft a PF/C and look to sign a true PG, then the starting 5 would look something like this….
true PG
Monta
Wright
Lee
Big Time C(brook Lopez, joakim Noah, Howard (if possible)
OR
True PG
Monta
Elite Wing (Iggy, Rudy Gay)
Lee
Beans (looking to draft a Post player)
ahhh, if only it were so easy
to magically procure a true PG and a big-time C in the off-season. Why didn’t Lacob/Riley do that this year??
"Alex is balling. He’s balling out." - Frank Gore
Brook Lopez isn’t a “big time center.” He’s a big time softie whose “20 ppg” lead the casual observer to think he doesn’t suck. There’s a reason his teams are always terrible. He’d be a complete disaster next to a softish, offensive-minded PF like Lee, imo.
Noah’s a very good player, but there’s no reason to think the Bulls would be remotely interested in breaking up their solid core of young talent for anything we can offer.
Howard’s a total pipe dream, as you note. Obviously, if you can magically get Howard straight up for Curry, it instantly makes you a contender. If you can magically get Howard straight up for anybody in the NBA it instantly makes you a contender (unless you’re a contender already, in which case it just makes you better).
As for your second team: looks ridiculously expensive and not very good, barring the addition of a great PG or C, neither of which you’ll be able to fit under the salary cap.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 17, 2012 8:01 AM PST up reply actions
There would be a ton of teams interested in Monta.
The front offices around the league recognize his talent and would realize that he would be a whole hell of a lot more efficient when he’s not the leading man on a crap team like this. Give him a legit big man and a guard next to him that can play defense and he’d make a great #2 on a good team.
Stay out of my territory
There would be a ton of teams interested in Monta. The front offices around the league recognize his talent and would realize that he would be a whole hell of a lot more efficient when he’s not the leading man on a crap team like this.
Man, I hope you’re right!
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 20, 2012 5:24 PM PST up reply actions
Chicago?!
based on this description, maybe we could get the Bulls to give us Asik?
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 21, 2012 11:19 AM PST up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
"UNSTOPPABLE BABY!"
Golden State Warriors rookie Marc Jackson to the Mavericks' bench, after hitting a lay-up during a 29-point loss (2000)
NBA Playoffs Content Module
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Most Commented
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- C-a-C: This is probably as close to LeBron James working with John Waters as we’ll ever get
- Dwyane Wade’s hot pink pants: The kind of thing you can get away with when you drop 41
- Lamar Odom to New York? Dwight Howard on the move? For now, it’s all talk
