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Around SBN: The Most Dangerous Division in Sports

How Should We Talk about Turnovers? Carefully.

ATLANTA, GA - JANUARY 21:  Kyrie Irving #2 of the Cleveland Cavaliers reacts after a turnover to the Atlanta Hawks at Philips Arena on January 21, 2012 in Atlanta, Georgia.  NOTE TO USER: User expressly acknowledges and agrees that, by downloading and or using this photograph, User is consenting to the terms and conditions of the Getty Images License Agreement.  (Photo by Kevin C. Cox/Getty Images)

I wrote a post on my blog a couple days ago about Jeremy Lin's turnover "problem". (I don't think it's a huge problem, even though Lin did his best to make me look foolish last night). Predictably, I suppose, this post has received hundreds of hits from people searching for "Jeremy Lin turnovers". The turnover issue is also one that often comes up when discussing Stephen Curry. Curry averages 3.2 TOV per 36 minutes. Lin is averaging a whopping 5.4 TOV per 36 minutes. Steve Nash averages 4.2, Jason Kidd averages 2.7, and Chris Paul just 2.1. Lin's TOV rate seems high, but if Curry has a turnover problem, then doesn't Steve Nash? How do we judge different players in different systems with different teammates and different ball handling responsibilities? And what is the impact of these turnovers? Go to the jump to see my take on turnovers.

Star-divide

Jeremy Lin Turnovers is a hot topic!

Screen_shot_2012-02-18_at_9

Ok, so here's the thing. When we talk about shooting efficiency, we can cite PPP or TS%. Those stats take into account how often a player shoots the ball. I think most of us agree that it's simply not right to talk about how many total points a player scores per game (PPG). And even points per 36 minutes (accounting for differences in minutes per game between different players) isn't a good solution, because it doesn't tell us about the efficiency. When discussing turnover rates, people usually default to TOV/36 minutes or less frequently TOV% (turnovers per 100 plays).

The problem with these stats is that they don't take into account how much the point guard actually handles the ball during a possession. The reason this is important is because the more a point guard or any player handles the ball, the less his teammates do. Ideally, you'd like your best ball handler to handle the ball all the time. If you did that, that player would, in theory, have all the team's turnovers. (Of course, the downside would be that he'd have to take all the shots, which may or may not be a good thing.) Now, if you look at the league-average TOV%, it's 14.2%. That means that on average, a team has 14 TOV per 100 possessions which equates to roughly 9.8 TOV per 36 minutes. Remember that's the average. How can it be that high? Well, if Chris Paul handled the ball the entire game, it probably wouldn't be that high. But even Chris Paul has to pass the ball to his teammates, and take the chance that they turn the ball over. In fact, given that the league average is much higher than the average TOV rate among point guards, one can quickly realize that turnovers are generally not a major problem for (most) point guards, but really for every other position.

We need a better way to think about turnovers then, one that can somehow adjust for the weakness of teammates and the ball handling responsibilities of the point guard in a particular system (for example, D'Antoni's). Well, one solution is to figure out how many turnovers each player is responsible for adding to the team total per 100 possessions. That may sound familiar to you, because it's the same strategy that is implemented by doing adjusted +/- (APM) or RAPM (it's fancier, more accurate cousin). Let me explain briefly how this works. We record the number of turnovers that occurred during each stint during a game. A "stint" is a series of possessions in which the same 10 players are on the floor. Each game has about 30-40 such stints. A stint typically ranges from a single possession up to about 15 or so. I can tell you that the average stint over the past 2 1/2 years is roughly 3.5.

Note: I am not the first person to calculate adjusted turnover rates. Jeremias Engelmann (who does RAPM ratings) did these ratings for 2009-2011 (so not including this season).

Once we have the turnovers and stints tabulated, we can then run a regression with turnover rate (TOV/possessions) being the dependent variable, the players on the court being the independent variables, and the number of possessions acting as a weight factor for each stint (otherwise, stints with 1 possession would be seen as equivalent to those with, say, 10). In the results I'll show here, I'm using a technique called ridge regression, which is the same technique used for determining RAPM player ratings. (If you're really interested in more of the details of this approach, I suggest reading my Advanced Stats Primer, which has a section at the end discussing adjusted +/- and a little bit about RAPM.)

I'm going to present two tables here. The first is the turnover rates for point guards. The second is for every other position. The tables are useful in the following way. If you want to predict how many turnovers a particular unit will produce (per 100 possessions), add up all the ratings for the 5 players, and then tack on the value 15.46 (which is the mean found by the regression). If you want to be really precise, subtract 0.3 from this total for the rate produced during home games.

Point Guards

Go to Google Spreadsheet

The rankings here are with respect to all 284 players from this season (only players who have played in 2011-12 are shown).

All Other Positions

Go to Google Spreadsheet

Discussion

First, I want to note that these ratings were calculated using the past two seasons through Wednesday night's games. I call this "2.5 Years". All players with greater than 500 possessions this season are shown in the tables.

Here are the Warriors on the list:

RANK

NAME

TEAM

POS

OFF

27

Ekpe Udoh

GSW

4.81

-0.52

50

Brandon Rush

GSW

2.50

-0.43

97

Nate Robinson

GSW

1.00

-0.20

102

David Lee

GSW

4.22

-0.16

105

Dorell Wright

GSW

3.19

-0.16

106

Stephen Curry

GSW

1.05

-0.16

190

Monta Ellis

GSW

1.77

0.20

198

Klay Thompson

GSW

3.02

0.23

231

Andris Biedrins

GSW

5.00

0.47

If we add up the starting unit, for example, it's +0.19 per 100 possessions, which is an average rating (not surprisingly, then, GSW is ranked #13 in the league in turnover rating). As you can see here, Curry's adjusted turnover rating is -0.19, which is about 1/3 of a turnover better than Monta's +0.2 rating (remember, in this case, negative means fewer turnovers, which is better). Now, this is not to say Monta is bad and Steph is good. I would simply say neither have a major turnover problem. In fact, Andris probably has the worst turnover problem, but that's what everyone reading this assumes, anyway (I assume you assume that). Interestingly, Ekpe has the best rating on the team.

So, what does a rating of -1.0 really signify, though? Well, the way I think about it is in terms of the value of a possession. A possession is worth roughly 1 point on average. So, Chris Paul, the player with the best rating contributes about 1 point per 100 possession by making sure his team retains that one extra possession. To put this in perspective, Chris Paul's RAPM rating is +5.6 on offense (ORAPM), so roughly 1 point of that is due to this turnover rating. On the other hand, Steph Curry has a -0.16 turnover rating, and an ORAPM rating of +2.2. If Curry was on Chris Paul's level, he would have an extra 0.85 points, making his ORAPM roughly +3.2. But that's Chris Paul. The next best PG in the entire league in terms of turnover rating is Mike Conley at -0.61. That's only 0.45 points different from Curry.

And now here's the punchline. What is 1 single point worth in terms of wins over the course of a full season? Well, if you read my Advanced Stats Primer linked to earlier, you'd find out that each 1 additional point in team point differential is worth roughly 2.5 wins in an 82 game season. Thus, the difference between Curry and Paul simply due to their turnovers is about 0.85*2.5 = 2 wins. The difference between Curry and Mike Conley is 0.45*2.5 = 1 win. The difference between Curry and Nash is about 1/2 of 1 win. Ok, so you probably get the point. So, whether these numbers are "a lot", I'll leave up to the reader to decide. But these are roughly the implications of turnovers on team level outcomes. If Curry's role changes and he handles the ball more, that might actually be an improvement, because someone else would handle it less.

Oh, and as far as Jeremy Lin goes...I think Kyrie Irving has more of turnover problem right now.

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Fantastic and timely post, Evan.

Based on the data you’ve presented, it looks like, as I suspected, neither Monta nor Curry is the “turnover machine” they’re often portrayed by Warriors fans to be. They both seem pretty squarely middle-of-the-pack given their respective positions and ballhandling burden.

I often think a turnover has a “shock effect” that typically outweighs its actual impact on wins and losses. It’s an effect felt acutely by fans of the team committing the turnover and barely at all by fans of the opposing team. Hence: on GSoM, Curry and Monta are “turnover machines,” while Lin, Kyrie, Rubio, Westbrook et al. are just young studs doing their thing.

There will be no extra point!

by Sleepy Freud on Feb 18, 2012 8:13 AM PST reply actions  

I think the lesson is...

if you’re not Chris Paul, you’ve got a turnover problem. ;)

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 8:27 AM PST up reply actions  

FWIW

Reggie Williams at -0.55

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 8:38 AM PST reply actions  

So he’s very good at essentially everything on offense. Shooting, ball handling, offensive boards, and driving. I really would have liked to have him, Curry, and Klay in the same backcourt rotation.

Gambino is a mastermind...

by GovernorStephCurry on Feb 18, 2012 9:25 AM PST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I really would have liked to have him, Curry, and Klay in the same backcourt rotation.

not to mention Lin

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 9:31 AM PST up reply actions  

This

and that

Dangerously? Yea.

by TooShort2Play on Feb 18, 2012 2:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Hmmm, so Curry isn't as bad at turnovers as I thought

Hey EvanZ, could you also do the same thing for assists? Part of being a PG is making assists as well… I want to see how Curry’s assists compare to his turnovers

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 8:39 AM PST reply actions  

ah, glad you asked

I was going to post this on my blog in the next couple days. Preview…

Top 11 PG’s Adjusted Assists
RANK NAME TEAM OFF
1 Jason Kidd DAL 1.95
2 Deron Williams NJN 1.63
3 Steve Nash PHX 1.49
4 Mike Bibby NYK 1.17
5 Rajon Rondo BOS 1.06
6 Chris Paul LAC 1.01
7 Jose Calderon TOR 0.97
8 Steve Blake LAL 0.86
9 Kyle Lowry HOU 0.84
10 Stephen Curry GSW 0.84
11 Jeremy Lin NYK 0.75

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Wait is Mike Bibby seriously in there LOL?

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 8:44 AM PST up reply actions  

because he gets a lot of assisted 3-pt shots himself

it’s tricky

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 8:44 AM PST up reply actions  

I watched some Knicks games

He is done in the NBA

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Steph has been improving his assists recently

The data reflects this

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 8:55 AM PST up reply actions  

+101. Totally agree.

He got off to a bad start, and has been coming on strong. Last game was not consistent with that demonstrated improvement.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

This is all great work, Evan

Curious: could you use these numbers along with Hollinger’s pure point rating to make an adjust pure point rating?

The reason I like PPR is that it effectively accomplishes what people miss when people talk about a point guard’s turnovers: how well he balances the harm of creating turnovers for the team with the benefit of creating a scoring opportunity for others.

Ultimately, as doubleteapot alludes to, what you want is not just a point guard who doesn’t turn the ball over but one who can find ways to actively make plays as well. Both assists and turnovers are sort of imperfect measures… but together they pretty effectively paint a picture of the landscape…

Twitter: @NateP_SBN.

by Nate Parham on Feb 18, 2012 2:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Adjusted four factors

that’s really what matters for every position

a good point guard will have high ratings in each offensive category, except arguably offensive rebounding:

eFG%
tov%
fta/fga

If I were going to make a pure point rating, I’d probably start with that, giving appropriate weighting to each and creating an index.

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 19, 2012 8:04 AM PST up reply actions  

That's a good point in terms of overall game play

Obviously, Hollinger’s is just looking at the distribution aspect, but clearly there’s more to a point guard than passing.

Twitter: @NateP_SBN.

by Nate Parham on Feb 20, 2012 12:33 PM PST up reply actions  

that Kidd leads that list shows

how overrated “assists” are and how they are misleading and misguided.

by salary_cap on Feb 19, 2012 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

it's because he thinks that kidd sucks

"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah

Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo

by bigkino217 on Feb 19, 2012 4:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I ws just writing a post on my fantasy league's message board about how assists are overrated and misleading, and Kidd's game illuminates some of this.

For starters, assists are “stat stuffers” like “saves” in MLB. But unlike saves, which is a useless a stat as there is, assists require subjective interpretation of “player must take no more than two dribbles…etc.” With saves, although utterly useless, it is black and white. But official scorers will add to stat totals wherever and whenever they can do so, and assists is one of them.

We see a guy with 14 assists (like Lin, today) and we assume that he A) made a lot of plays; B) is a good passer and C) is generally adept at creating easy opportunities to score for his teammates. Not to mention, when Lin passes it to the right wing (as he did today) and the player pauses, then pump fakes, then takes two large dribbles towards the baseline and makes a jumper, Lin gets the assist. Lin got that assist as product of initiating the offense, not form his ability to set up a teammates opportunity to score. That player created his own opportunity on that play.

As it pertains to Kidd, who since a year or two ago I would have argued is one of the worst starting PGs in the league, you have a guy who is a PG who doesn’t really dominate the ball anymore in the halfcourt set (cause he can’t) thus it has lowered his overall assists (he’ playing less minutes too) despite the fact that he is still a good passer and possesses the same high level IQ and awareness and court vision. He doesn’t have the athletic ability anymore to create opportunities to use his passing skills like he used to. He is too old to use his only and last strengths, which are largely intangible. I have seen countless Mavs possessions where Kidd walks the ball up the floor, makes a pass to the wing, and drifts to the other side of the floor and I wonder to myself: Is there no PG who can do this if this for less than $17 million? Kidd and Derek Fischer have devalued the PG position cause it has been proven teams can win championships with inferior and non-factor PGs that have very small roles and minimal impact on the game.

by salary_cap on Feb 19, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Kidd and Derek Fischer have devalued the PG position cause it has been proven teams can win championships with inferior and non-factor PGs that have very small roles and minimal impact on the game.

I disagree with the way you’re framing that. I would say that guys like Kidd, Fischer, and plenty of other starters on championship teams from Rick Fox to Bruce Bowen to Antoine Walker to Malik Rose show you win championships with your best players, and you can afford to play not very good players as long as your best players are good enough. It’s not just the PG position you see this at.

As for the value of assists…well, I’m not sure what it means in the overall context of winning games. Take it for what it is – passes that lead to buckets.

by Missing Barry on Feb 19, 2012 5:16 PM PST up reply actions  

you can afford to play not very good players as long as your best players are good enough.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, I just think it is less than ideal for your PG to be one of those “useless” positions. and those role players you mentioned could either shoot a 3 or D somebody up, whereas Kidd offers pretty much nothing. He has no strength — in fact, all weaknesses — except for his intangibles and passing, which often rely on athleticism and ability he no longer has in order to utilize those remaining strengths. But I concur that your way is a more than fair way of framing it.


As for the value of assists…well, I’m not sure what it means in the overall context of winning games.

I’m not sure what it means in the context of winning games either. Do teams that make buckets off of lots of ball movement (i.e., lots of assists) generally win more than teams that score more individually (i.e., lower assists)? If it did, does that mean one way is better than the other? Not necessarily. And defenses can force you to pass when you don’t want to or wouldn’t otherwise (e.g., double teams, weak side help defense, etc.) which can effect the nature of how teams score, thus indirectly affecting assist totals. And the list of factors can go on and on…I’m not necessarily focused on how it effects winning games (cause it probably doesn’t) but on how the stat is misleading and not scored well, because the implication of the stat is to tell you when a pass “led” to a bucket. But the perception is that assist totals tell you a lot about the player who accumulates them.

Take it for what it is – passes that lead to buckets.

Lots of times passes aren’t meant to set some one up, they are meant to get the ball in a paritcular player’s hands so that they themselves can deal with that thing called scoring. Most passes DO NOT directly lead to buckets, but of course passes have to be made often in order to account for the way the opposition is handling you, or else OKC would just inbound the ball to Durant and let him do his thing every time down, but they can’t, because the defense won’t let them.

by salary_cap on Feb 19, 2012 5:41 PM PST up reply actions  

salary_cap

do you understand what I actually did here?

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 19, 2012 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

yes

a moment after I wrote that, I remembered that we were talking about turnovers. my mind was subconsciously still thinking about assists when I referenced your list. I guess my point was that being a PG that rates the best in adjusted TO’s and being next to useless are not mutually exclusive.

by salary_cap on Feb 19, 2012 5:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Questions?

salary_cap I know you trash the 9ers a lot or what you like be “objective”. first question is have you play pick up basketball or D 3 college ball? yes A lot of Kidd’s or even Steve Nash comes from player beating their man 1 on 1, but if you actually play Basketball you would understand a good PG’s job is not only to set up for easy bucket also understand where the weak side at or the better match up. Why do you think A.I or Jamal Crawford can’t run, they can create your so call easy bucket or ASSIST, but they losing out all the weak side action and better match ups. Point guard job is put the team in the best position to score and uses the best match up. I would love to watch you play at the 24 hour fitness then see HOW YOU VALUE a PLAYER’S ASSIST

by Lawrence9ers on Feb 19, 2012 5:42 PM PST up reply actions  

I don't follow everything that you are saying

I’ve only played HS BBall and men’s leagues, but I don’t think playing experience is a prerequisite from seeing the flaws in the assist stat or in Kidd’s largely ineffective game.

Yes, there are more aspects of the game for a PG than just beating your man one on one; in fact, very rarely are PGs asked to do that with regularity. It seems that you are saying that AI and Crawford are good one-on-one players in terms of scoring a getting a few assists, but fail to see when and where there are better matchups on the floor. I agree. They’re not PGs, or at least shouldn’t be. Kidd has a reputation of being a great PG in his prime (and he earned it) and now people have a hard time acknowledging how little he actually does. Kidd’s not a good player anymore, and trying to say that he is because he is more willing to swing the ball to the other side of the court is a desperate attempt to mask that. What does Kidd do well? Or in other words, what does Kidd not do poorly? (Well, he has the best adjusted TO ratio?!) Kidd likes to pass cause he can’t shoot and he can’t penetrate. What value does a PG who can’t shoot or penetrate have (and who can’t guard opposing PGs)? Usually its a matter of a PG being able to do one of those well and the other not so much.

You seem to be tugging at two difference concepts: 1) a ball handler’s ability to set his teammates up in multiple ways and 2) assists. They are different. I don’t know how playing at the local gym may get someone to value a PGs ability to pass and see the floor anymore than watching college or pro. You argue that a PGs job is to put his team in the best positoin to score and use the best matchup, and I wonder in what way does Kidd facilitate that in way that other, even non-starting, PGs can’t?

by salary_cap on Feb 19, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

easy answer

first thing even this dirt old J Kidd do extremely well is passing the ball on time, which actually about 70% NBA point guard can’t do under pressure, second of all Kidd always deliver the ball on the weak side whether it’s Terry or Dirk, how many times have you seen Dirk catch the ball and get trap immediately, as far as playing in the gym, you would notice someone who played organize ball as a point guard or not, A) he will not pass into where the heart of the defense, example against the Knicks, you don’t want your guy catch the ball where Tyson and Fields is at, you wanna screen out one of them and work on the opp side of them B) he will do what Nash does best is keep the defense on the Strong side and use one or two passes to get to the weak side. Kidd understand that, he will feed Marion and then Marion back to him and then Terry, or he will pass to Terry, Terry will pass it back to Kidd and then Kidd will set up Dirk for much better ISO since the defense has shift to the Terry side. People like Cauldron, Rubio or even Billups are better than Jamal Nelson or even Devin Harris at point guard.

by Lawrence9ers on Feb 19, 2012 6:14 PM PST up reply actions  

oh wait

your list did reference assists, as I originally thought. I’m aware, though, that you weren’t taking a position that I then opposed.

by salary_cap on Feb 19, 2012 6:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Bottom 10 Adjusted Assists

NAME TEAM OFF
Jimmer Fredette SAC -2.16
Kemba Walker CHA -1.71
Avery Bradley BOS -1.46
Jarrett Jack NOH -1.24
Norris Cole MIA -1.14
Brandon Jennings MIL -0.72
Mario Chalmers MIA -0.68
Russell Westbrook OKC -0.66
C.J. Watson CHI -0.57
Derrick Rose CHI -0.56

It’s tricky to interpret because guys like Rose and Westbrook have high usage.

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 8:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Curry has to stop making that behind the back pass to Lee

He seems to do it whenever they do the pick and pop. There is no reason to do it. It’s sort of annoying.

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 8:48 AM PST reply actions  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oTi1kNcikM

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 8:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Damn that was nice

If only Steph could do it in that situation

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross
I gif stuff
Don't believe everything you read on the internet - Abraham Lincoln

by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 8:50 AM PST up reply actions  

And…that’s what court vision looks like.

by Missing Barry on Feb 18, 2012 11:16 AM PST up reply actions  

Amen!

Couldn’t agree with you more.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

Makes me miss Mullin’s little one handed, behind the back bounce pass he would use to find cutters when he would penetrate and dish.

by Uwe Blog on Feb 19, 2012 9:52 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

I think that despite the actual statistics

The impact of the turnovers that Curry, who is on my mind specifically, makes impact the game in a negative way that does not represent the actual data. These turnovers are not easy for the Warriors to bounce back from the way others teams can. They usually happen at a critical time and then allow the other team to make some huge play at the other end.

People might not agree, but I don’t think that the numbers really matter in this case. The impact that turnovers have on the Warriors hurts us more then other teams. We need every possession. Teams like OKC can afford them and still win the game. Warriors cannot afford that luxury.

Plus, Curry’s turnovers seem like they come from lack of focus or something, which is why I think fans notice it more and which is why it is more disappointing and heartbreaking. It is like NOOOOOO, what is he doing!?!?!? It is not usually some high effort play that gets out of control, which is more understandable.

by picknpop on Feb 18, 2012 8:56 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

Thank you, Evanz. A great, illuminating, piece of work for all of us.

I particularly enjoy that your use of stats is such, that you follow them to your analysis, and conclusions. It is much more valid than coming to a conclusion and searching for stats (often, selectively) to support it!

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 9:29 AM PST reply actions  

Lots of numbers there

but they seem to say that some guys with turnovers are good and some guys are bad which we all already knew? Do they have any practical value other than supporting sales for the tech sector?

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 9:39 AM PST reply actions  

if you want to discuss turnovers, then it has value

if you don’t, then it doesn’t

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 10:08 AM PST up reply actions  

if you want to discuss turnovers

one has to take into effect the factors other than the bare numbers. OKLA makes a lot but they are good enough to overcome them, If Binky makes a lot his shooting could override them,Lin makes a lot cause he’s trying to do too much,teams make a lot because they are desperate and gambling, etc. I don’t think any stat can figure out all the complexities that go into these things without being one step more complicated than the game of basketball it’s self, any less is just wishful thinking.

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by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 10:32 AM PST up reply actions  

if i want to discuss turnovers

then i do not want to discuss things that are not turnovers

hey, but that’s why you’re skep and i’m not

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

if i want to discuss turnovers,then i do not want to discuss things that are not turnovers

I could do that. something like; the ball unintentionally leaves the control of player on team A and is gratefully secured by a player on team B?

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Hmm, that would be an interesting discussion.

I have to qualify your statement, above, however, by stating that no player intentionally loses control when, as correctly you stated, the ball is gratefully secured by an opponet.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 11:45 AM PST up reply actions  

I have to qualify your statement, above, however, by stating that no player intentionally loses control

I was trying to differentiate a turnover from a shot that results in a defensive rebound. Shots are usually more intentional than turnovers are?

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 11:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Interesting piece of work, Evanz.

I think it’s fantastically useful when talking about Monta and Curry.

I have a huge problem with it when talking about Lin, though.

The guy’s been a starter for, what, eight games? We don’t generally consider un-adjusted +/- stats to be meaningful for a stretch of less than a full season, and generally the more adjusting to do the bigger your standard errors get (eg, the larger a sample size you need for it to be meaningful).

Which is to say, drawing a conclusion about Lin after 8 games of starters minutes seems a little crazy, doesn’t it?

by Ronaldinho on Feb 18, 2012 9:49 AM PST reply actions  

Valid point.

From a statistical point, we all look at any conclusion based on stats on Lin, given the small sample, lightly. I do not think anyone will stand by anything that comes out of that as a conclusion. Nine games constitute roughly 15% of this season, so we can only say that there are some indicators of performance. However, as you point out, that does not apply to other players in the discussion.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 10:05 AM PST up reply actions  

includes last year, too

I don’t have std. err for these, but they would be a lot smaller than for +/-, because the d.v. has much less variance.

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 10:06 AM PST up reply actions  

woaaah

check out NATE ROBINSON….he’s dirty…doesn’t turn it over ever really he should start at the 1 trade monte for a big man, have curry nate and klay rotate at the guard positions.

by Kenny Yams on Feb 18, 2012 10:32 AM PST reply actions  

check out NATE ROBINSON

looks like Udon is the man if you don’t want TO’s? maybe we found our new magic johnson?

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 10:56 AM PST up reply actions  

That's because Udon uses his noodle

There is an evening coming in/Across the fields, one never seen before,/That lights no lamps. -- Philip Larkin, from "Going"

by Ray of Lite on Feb 18, 2012 1:49 PM PST via mobile up reply actions  

uses his noodle

or just doesn’t get the opportunity to maximize his turnover potential?

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

He doesn’t turn it over because he takes the first awful shot he can find. Lowers the risk of a turnover, but is a missed shot really much better?

by Missing Barry on Feb 18, 2012 11:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Rebounding is the key to

success

Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........

mykelala01 is like the bouncer with the red rope for GSOM. You’re good to come in now.

by TheSoundOfHockey on Apr 24, 2011 9:24 PM PDT

by mykelala01 on Feb 18, 2012 12:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Does this team have a leader?

I guess Monta is the leader… but he’s just so inefficient. Lee and Curry disappear in the 4th. Everyone else is a role player. I guess the real issue is that we have nobody who is ridiculously good at basketball and becomes the “leader” because he sets the example with his play.

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by doubleteapot on Feb 18, 2012 11:00 AM PST reply actions  

Sounds like you are talking about Lee: "sets the example with his play".

He is the closest thing thing to a consistent player and leader that we have.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

I guess the real issue is that we have nobody who is ridiculously good at basketball and becomes the "leader" because he sets the example with his play.

we need to find a new boom dizzle. Maybe lock Binky in the film room till he gets the message?

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 11:15 AM PST reply actions  

it could be done, at least, with certain assumptions using pbp data

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 11:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Points of turnovers are tracked in the NBA, but,

the cause-effect relationship cannot be tracked as directly as in the NFL. However, it could be done with the differentiating criteria that you state in the NBA.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 11:50 AM PST reply actions  

Not that I think this is the right way to look at it or anything…but just think it’s an interesting/different point of view: I just crunched some numbers, and if you considered one of Lin’s turnovers per 36 a missed shot instead of a TO, his TS% would be just under 55%. So basically his statline would be 23 points per 36 on slightly less than 55% TS%, 8.7 assists per 36, 4.4 TO’s per 36. Take away 2 turnovers and add two missed shots and he’s looking at just under 53% TS% with 3.4 TO’s per 36. I just think it’s interesting how much impact one additional missed shot/turnover makes on efficiency, given how much we all like TS%.

by Missing Barry on Feb 18, 2012 12:03 PM PST reply actions  

a turnover is worth more than a missed shot

a missed shot is wirth about 3/4 of a possession, because there is a chance for oreb

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah – I’d also be curious to compare what the expected PPP on the opponents possession after each.

by Missing Barry on Feb 18, 2012 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

right, good point

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 12:08 PM PST up reply actions  

I have a question prompted by one my responses to Skeptic, earlier.

If a team steals the ball, moves downcourt, misses the shot or even layup, gets the offensive rebound, and scores. Which action weighs more in that score. The TO, or. the offensive rebound?

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 12:12 PM PST up reply actions  

depends who you talk to

I would give the player that steals the ball +1, the player that misses the shot -0.7, and the player that gets the oreb +0.7.

The steal prevented the first team from scoring at all on that possession. The team that stole the ball would have gotten it anyway if the first team had scored.

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 12:17 PM PST up reply actions  

teams with strong defense, especially transition d

aren’t going to be hurt by turnovers as much as teams like GS. in a sense, that makes Rose’s turnovers different than Curry’s. if a team is also weak on the boards like GS, that probably magnifies the impact of losing possession too.

Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)

by the.monk on Feb 18, 2012 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I agree, good teams are more good than bad teams

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 3:18 PM PST up reply actions  

an intelligent and hard working guy like you

surely can’t expect all responses to your presentations to measure up to what you put into them. nonetheless, your theme implies that turnovers should be compared ‘carefully’, and to me that means in context with where they happen. that context is not apparent in lists of numbers, not that there’s anything deficient with your lists of numbers.

Music is the Healing Force of the Universe (a.ayler)

by the.monk on Feb 18, 2012 3:30 PM PST up reply actions  

to me that means in context with where they happen

We’re a bad team for a lot of reasons. Curry’s turnovers are not one of the bigger ones.

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 4:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Good post

good analysis and good use of synergy

Oh, and as far as Jeremy Lin goes…I think Kyrie Irving has more of turnover problem right now.

But what bother me is you last words. Is this another Jeremy Lin thread? Cover up with TO analysis. Just to prove a point that Jeremy Lin TO was not bad at all. You can talk about Curry or Ellis TO is not at worst as Kyrie but you really need to bring up Linsanity at the end of your thread.

Can we just talk about Warriors basketball please

-From a bitter Warriors fans

Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........

mykelala01 is like the bouncer with the red rope for GSOM. You’re good to come in now.

by TheSoundOfHockey on Apr 24, 2011 9:24 PM PDT

by mykelala01 on Feb 18, 2012 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

Actually we have had quite a bit of discussions in here about TOs as they relate to Curry and Monta.

I believe that is what resulted in positng the excellent, and timely, analysis, as Sleepy Freud points out at the top of this discussion. Lin is a Warrior-connected phenomenon, that is really incidental to this discussion (though his high TOS add some more to it).

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

That is why it is from a “Bitter Warriors Fans” how can Warriors fan move on when every thread we need to include Lin into discussion. It is like seeing your “ex” everyday. Where is the Warriors Thunder analysis? Someone got to do it, rather than wasting this analysis that sometimes goes way above my head. Just to prove a point that 9 TO of LIn last night is not the end of Linsanity.

Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........

mykelala01 is like the bouncer with the red rope for GSOM. You’re good to come in now.

by TheSoundOfHockey on Apr 24, 2011 9:24 PM PDT

by mykelala01 on Feb 18, 2012 12:56 PM PST up reply actions  

I think you're reading what you want to read

If you can’t get past one line, I don’t know what to tell you. I specifically made this post different from the one on my blog by focusing more on GSW, not Lin.

Read my Advanced Stats Primer

J-RIDAH: Its not 1 player in this draft better than Monta or Lee. Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu. Andre Drummond could be good but he is not impressive at this point at all besides his size. This draft is hella overated.

(JaVale) Mcgee is better than anybody in this draft.

by Evanz on Feb 18, 2012 1:59 PM PST up reply actions  

I went back and read what you posted in your own blog.

First, I have to share with you that I was not aware you were running your own blog. That is my fault, because I rarely go anywhere outside of here to talk about the Warriors. Second, I found the one in your site outstanding (on TOs in general). Third, having read both, I totally agree that you geared your lead-in to this blog specifically toward the Warriors. Fourth, the entire basketball world is talking about TOs, Lin’s supposed “weakness” has brought it to the forefront, so to use a lead-in line into your blog is actually very apropos. Fifth, we have to grow past our sensitivities concerning our time with LIn, and see if we can get some positives out of that learning experience. Bitterness, is something which we all feel about a lot of things pertaining to Warriors trades over the years, but we cannot allow it to keep us from growing. Sixth, and, lastly, all this discussion pertaining to TOs, arose out of discussions in the analysis of the Warriors-Thunder game recap.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 4:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Oh no don't get me wrong

good post but you do not need to put Lins’ name on the end of your post. It brings up more Lin discussion

Win Or Lose Warriors For Life.........

mykelala01 is like the bouncer with the red rope for GSOM. You’re good to come in now.

by TheSoundOfHockey on Apr 24, 2011 9:24 PM PDT

by mykelala01 on Feb 18, 2012 5:43 PM PST up reply actions  

Just to prove a point that Jeremy Lin TO was not bad at all.

and turnovers were not even why we let him go,it was lack of a reliable shot. If he reverts to his bad shooting the turnovers will matter more.

Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.

by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 18, 2012 2:54 PM PST up reply actions  

We let Lin go because of "lack of a reliable shot"? I was not aware of that.

Did the FO say that somewhere? If they did, Lin is definitely proving them wrong (again)! I was under the impression that the FO’s official position was to enable the Jordan deal. At any rate, I agree with you, that bad shooting impacts badly on high TOs, although that can be partially overcome (during a shooting slump) with a whole bunch of dimes. Which is why you see alot premier PGS really turn it on in the assists department when their shot is not going.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 4:39 PM PST up reply actions  

Main Issue with Curry

It’s not his turnover rate because his is definitely not as high as several other players but the type of turnovers he tends to have. He seems to have too many lapses of concentration at times, if he could avoid these lapses he would have a much lower turnover rate. He would probably be averaging around 2 turnovers a game instead of 3 which would put him up there with CP3 in terms of taking care of the ball. For Curry to reach his potential I’m definitely hoping he can improve this area of his game in the near future.

by BayArea4Life on Feb 18, 2012 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

Also, too!

Magic Johnson made a good point on ESPN last night regarding Lin’s TOs: He has a tendency to terminate his dribble and pass while jumping. This is partly the result of playing at one pace (fast!). He needs to learn to change gears and not get stuck in the air with no good shot option. Given his lack of experience, there’s no reason to think he won’t improve in this regard.

RIP Kyrylo Fesenko 2011-2011

by The Bimbo Coles Experience on Feb 18, 2012 1:31 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

Yeah, from what I’ve seen so far he has his share of Monta plays – where he gets caught without having a place to go.

by Missing Barry on Feb 18, 2012 2:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Agree.

One other area that he has to improve on those drives is kicking-out off the penetration drive, particularly with Melo coming back. I have noticed Monta and Curry are getting much better in doing that to our strong outside shootersm andm each other. I would like to see them do it more.

by dinohealth on Feb 18, 2012 4:44 PM PST up reply actions  

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