Monta Ellis - Distributor
a great argument for our boy monta. very well thought out and statistically backed up.
4 months ago
j-spliff415
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What I’ve seen in games also backs up this article. I am beginning to realize that we may be using Curry and Ellis in an opposite way than their strength. Ellis is much more effective when he is penetrating a defense and passing the ball, while Curry seems best when he is moving without the ball and taking catch and shoot opportunities.
I still think Monta lacks vision because of his weak ballhandling, but he’s added a new pass to his arsenal – the little dump off to the baseline for a layup/dunk. He’s been able to make that pass pretty consistently this year, and I’m liking it. Open layups and dunks are the best!
I don't think ball handling and vision directly correlate
It’d just effect how well one could use his vision
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
Well it does if your looking at the ball and not the court which is what Monta does at times.
"If God made us in his image then he must be dumb too, and a little ugly on the side."
Frank Zappa
by qin on Feb 2, 2012 11:26 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
This. I agree with dubzfan that a lot of the time they’re separate skills, but if you’re looking down at your dribble, it definitely affects your vision. Monta dribbles with his head down often.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Monta dribbles with his head down often.
not so much this year.
unfortunately, it’s the reason he’s had so many turnovers just dribbling the ball so far this year
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
I dunno
Monta seems to think RIGHT is the only direction you can dribble.
by Doctor Kajita on Feb 2, 2012 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
he's still done a better job at keeping his head up this year
he’s just not very good at dribbling without looking at the ball.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Well, it IS the only direction HE can dribble.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 12:42 PM PST up reply actions
Monta needs to get rid of the jump pass. He does it way too often.
"I thought it was going in," Warriors center Chris Hunter said. "It looked like the invisible man tipped it away at the last second."
"He's chicken curry right now. He'll become beef curry a little later on."
-Keith Smart
Absolutely. He gets caught in the air all the time.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
Open layups and dunks are the best!
Now we just need more players that can hold up that end of the bargain! Beans usually isn’t there to receive that pass, Ekpe seems almost virtually incapable of going up strong enough to make it happen, and Lee needs to be wide open so that he doesn’t get stuffed at the rim.
Man, as much as I hated on the Deandre Jordan signing (and still do, for what it’s worth), that is exactly what he could have done for us. If you dump it off to him under the hoop, that ball is going in the basket.
by Lacob's Ladder on Feb 2, 2012 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
It’s a shame Kwame got hurt. He and Monta had something going. It’s like both their reputations (Monta won’t ever pass it, Kwame won’t ever catch it) preceded them to the point that they could play in some parallel vortex where Monta was a distributor and Kwame could finish.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I agree
Since you pointed it out a year ago, I’ve made a concious effort to watch for it.
Disappointing. The main thing separating Monta from being a full time pg a la westbrook/rose is the ballhandling. Can’t really trust Monta to handle under heavy pressure.
He has played for dysfunctional Warriors teams and been asked to create tons of shots. Back when he was more of a slasher and Baron Davis was handling the ball, his TS% was significantly higher.
Why is this an “excuse?” It’s a reason. Pretty cut and dry if you ask me. Monta hurts the team when he is the primary ballhandler and when he gets into too many iso situations. The fact that he is still allowed to be in these situations is the fault of our various incompetent coaching staffs.
Also, his “lack of size” is an all too familiar straw man argument. He does not get consistently beaten by bigger players. It just doesn’t happen. His lack of man-up defense and his tendency to gamble on that end are far more glaring problems.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
by Supafishal on Feb 2, 2012 8:53 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
Ellis has a much more difficult time with quickness than size.
by Slightly Hyphy on Feb 2, 2012 9:21 AM PST up reply actions
Sometimes I wonder if people actually watch the team. :)
That being said, there’s a reason why people shoot such a high percentage when Ellis passes …
… and that’s because he only passes when they’re hugely wide open. Marginal analysis makes this clear.
Imagine that I only passed you the ball when you were wide open, all alone, right under the basket. Otherwise, I shot. You’d shoot something like 100%.
Now let’s say I also start passing to you when you’re wide open at the three point line. Now you’ll miss some of those shots, but still make most of them, so your shooting percentage will still be really high.
Continue this thought process and you’ll see that the more I pass the ball, the lower your percentage gets, and higher mine gets. So a big gap between my percentage and your percentage is an indication that I’m shooting way too much.
This is exactly what’s going on with Monta. Yes, he passes sometimes – but he needs to pass more. And his teammates very high PPP on balls they get from Ellis is an indication that he doesn’t pass enough.
Or you could just watch him play. If you watch him play you’ll notice how team movement falls to a standstill because the players around him know that he’s not going to pass. You’ll see him get caught up in the air with nowhere to go with the ball. You’ll see him take contested jumpers early in the shot clock.
This stuff isn’t hard to see.
Monta is a terrible distributor because his pass/shoot decisions are geared way too much towards “shooting.”
Anybody who suggest otherwise is just wrong.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 9:46 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I think your wrong, you just wont give him the credit he deserves.
Reading that post made me think your a Curry fanboy? is that true or do you just despise monta
by KillaE415 on Feb 2, 2012 9:51 AM PST up reply actions 2 recs
You think I'm wrong, how?
You don’t think Monta gets caught up in the air without knowing what to do with the ball?
You don’t think Monta takes long, contested, early-shot-clock twos?
You think I’m wrong, why, exactly? Please tell us. I could use a good laugh. Have you watched him play – full games, not highlights?
Please, explain to me why I’m wrong. If my teammates are shooting 60% when I pass, and I’m shooting <41% (Monta’s FG%) or <43% (Monta’s eFG%) or under .490 (Monta’s TS%) … why the hell am I shooting the ball?
It’s insane.
I don’t like selfish players who make their team worse on offense by shooting way too much and play no defense. That’s what Monta is.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 10:01 AM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Exactly: if the FG% for players that receive Monta's pass is so high
why not pass more? He still takes 18.9 shots per game and shoots them at 41% (or all the other stats that Ronaldinho has stated that I feel aren’t necessary to repeat). If I were a PG and my teammates made their shots that often when I give it to them I’d never stop passing.
And the argument that no one else can shoulder the offensive load or be a ball handler is absolute BS. Clearly his teammates can handle it if they’re shooting 60% off his passes, and you have Curry and Lee who provide offensive fire power (and Robinson and Thompson and Wright when he doesn’t pump fake and Rush).
by Nith on Feb 2, 2012 10:07 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like your reasoning that Monta should pass more until the PPP comes down. But I do not think this is exclusively a Monta problem. I think this is more of a coaching problem. Why do you not hold the coaches responsible for what is clearly a team strategy issue?
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Feb 2, 2012 10:21 AM PST up reply actions
In the NBA, coaches have limited power.
I’m not happy with how Nellie, Smart, or (so far) Jackson have handled Monta. They are not blameless.
On the other hand, the NBA is a player’s league, not a coach’s one. When a coach pushes a player too hard, you end up alienating the player and being forced to trade him for less than his value – an experience all Warriors fans should be familiar with.
Ultimately, maybe better coaching could help, but I can’t help but notice that Curry (for example) hasn’t had the same problem.
I think this is a fallacious argument. The NBA is a player’s league when the coach isn’t good enough to earn the player’s respect. Good coaches get players to buy in. Mark Jackson basically came in and immediately handed the reigns of the offense to the players, before he had any idea who his team was or what they would do.
Also, this idea that Monta is somehow going to feel “alienated” and start a mutiny if he’s told to take fewer early shot-clock jumpers and not be the primary ballhandler is pretty weakly supported, IMHO.
Sittin in my scraper watchin Oakland goin wild, ta-dow!
I am not sure that I agree that the NBA is a players league. It is if you are a super star player but Monta is not. I would say Nellie had far more significance to the Warrior franchise than any single one of his players. But this is not true for other Nellie teams (Bucks, Mavs) that did have star players. You seam to fall into making the same error as our coaches that since Monta is our best player, Monta is responsible to be our savior. Until we land a super star, I think coaching will be key to turning this organization around and therefore it would be healthy for fans to hold the coaches accountable.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Feb 2, 2012 11:16 AM PST up reply actions
Nellie alienated Webber, Harrington, Baron, SJax … anybody else I’m forgetting just off the top of my head?
Part of what made Phil Jackson such a great coach is that he knew how to motivate stars to improve their games, and how to keep role players motivated even when a star was making dumb decisions. But Phil is the exception. The history of the league is littered with the corpses of coaches who clashed with their star players and lost … to their team’s detriment.
Nobody would have said that Deron Williams was a player likely to clash with his coach (certainly he always seemed less ego-oriented a player than Monta does) yet he clashed with his coach, to the team’s loss.
You seam to fall into making the same error as our coaches that since Monta is our best player, Monta is responsible to be our savior
Well, since I don’t think Monta is our best player, that argument doesn’t hold much water.
I don’t expect any player to be our savior. However, I do expect players to not play selfish-hero ball in order to help the team win. Yes, ideally the coaches would enforce this more than they have … but again, not every player needs to be told not to take dumb shots.
It’s not that I’m asking Monta to be our savior. Rather, I’m asking him to stop shooting the team in the foot with stupid decisions.
But Phil is the exception
Is he even the exception? I for one remember Kobe running him out of town.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 11:46 AM PST up reply actions
That’s not how I remember it. Kobe ran Shaq out of town, too, but I definitely remember a rift between Jackson and Kobe.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 12:44 PM PST up reply actions
Kobe’s riff was Phil was an afterthought. They budded heads a lot in Kobe’s early career, for all the right reasons. Kobe thought he was better than he was, wanted more. Phil wanted to spoonfeed shaq, and have Kobe play off him.
Then all the issues with Kobe and Shaq happened. And beyond that, the main reason Lakers traded him was the fact Shaq kept getting hurt and was gaining weight.
I think Buss said it “IF i knew shaq was going to lose 70 lbs and play with that edge (in miami), I wouldnt have traded him”. But they seemed to have had it with him. He was 33, playing less, gaining weight, seemed like the right move at the time.
At that point, Phil decided ’I’m done’. Atleast thats how i remember it.
Kobe also played a big role in getting Phil to return though
Fair question.
Phil did it with Jordan, and he did it with Shaq.
And he struggled to do it with Kobe. I got the sense that he quit the first time because he was burned out, and the second time because he wasn’t interested in being part of the rebuild (and maybe needed new hip, IIRC).
What was impressive about Phil is how he got everyone to play so hard even when Kobe was playing hero-ball. Most of the time, when a star starts playing like that, the rest of the team starts giving halfhearted effort. But it’s hard to look at their team right now and think that Jackson would be okay with Kobe nearly shooting as much as Bynum and Pau combined.
According to Brown
Kobe’s shot selection hasn’t been a problem. They’ve been good looks.
Watching a handful of laker games, I’ll say it’s not TOTALLY false. He’s doing less of the dribble up, 1 v. 5, it’s been a lot more of he gets a ball in the high post/mid elbow area and takes a shot or dribble shot, which atleast is more an attempt at getting him a ball in his preferred positions.
Brown’s been clear he wants to get Bynum/Pau the ball more inside, but the lack of a proper PG is hurting. They have a hard time setting up those looks v. teams with proper D.
I live in L.A. and so end up seeing pieces of a lot of laker games.
I tend not to sit down and watch them like I do Warrior games, but it’s unavoidable.
And I, bluntly, disagree. Kobe’s shot selection is, at times, very poor.
There’s something really impressive about what he’s doing this year, carrying so much of a load, despite being hurt and having his physical skills clearly in decline.
But he’s not doing his team any favors, the way he’s playing. Yeah, a real point guard would help, but Kobe has shown that he can play in a system in the past – at times, at least.
shooting the team in the foot with stupid decisions
I would just feel more comfortable if the coaches demonstrated that they were aware of this. For all I know Flowcoach may be encouraging this which would make it not so much Monta’s fault.
With all due respect, I am a Analyst Hall of Fame candidate. If you are offended by my comment, I did write "With all due respect".
by KillaContract on Feb 2, 2012 11:51 AM PST up reply actions
There’s almost as much of a deference issue to Monta as there is a shot selection issue with monta.
In many ways, Steph frustrates me by not commanding more control o na consistent basis. I Don’t mean purely shooting more, i mean handling more.
At the same time, Steph’s an elite shooter, and you want to get him some easy looks off screens etc. and you need the ball in someone else’s hands.
I will say this much. In games where steph hasn’t played, monta’s averaged 20.5 shots a game, v. 17.8 with Steph. Not really great
However in 5 games since Steph’s return monta’s been at 15 shots a game (which is about the range he should), the EXACT same amount as Steph.
Interestingly……
4 games pre-steph sitting-
Steph- 10.8 shots per game, 6 assists
Monta- 20.1 shots
During strech Curry sat-
Monta- 20.5 shots
Post Steph coming back-
Monta- 15 shots, 6.6 assists
Steph, 15 shots, 6.2 assists
Sample size is the key issue, but I do think our offense has been run slightly differently.
I don’t think Monta is our best player
until another proves he’s better montay is by default our best player. Binky hasn’t proved that he’s not too fragile for the NBA yet and Lee hasn’t proved he can consistently play big minutes to carry a bad team for long stretches. montay is not good at a lot of things but he’s very good at the things he does best.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 2, 2012 2:39 PM PST up reply actions
It has been proved many times here
how could it be proved if Binky and DLee have never played a full season healthy yet? Montay has been our default best player since SJax left.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 3, 2012 9:55 AM PST up reply actions
Er, what? Curry’s played two full seasons now.
“Proved” is probably the wrong word, but we’ve got over two seasons’ worth of data that show that Curry is a better passer, better rebounder, and much more efficient scorer than Monta, with a much more positive impact on the team’s points for / points against (i.e. wins and losses). A lot of people correlate those indicators with “better.”
Where are you getting this “default” setting from?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 10:22 AM PST up reply actions
Where are you getting this "default" setting from?
cause at the end of the year Montay is still here. When that changes we’ll have the new top dog.
the likelihood he’ll finally make allstar this season helps too.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 3, 2012 10:32 AM PST up reply actions
cause at the end of the year Montay is still here.
technically monta missed the end of the year last season. he also missed most of the end of the previous season. in fact, since curry came into the league, monta has missed more games.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
cause at the end of the year Montay is still here.
Guess I should have said at the beginning of each year he’s still here.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 3, 2012 3:58 PM PST up reply actions
you might not be wrong but what makes your opinion on Monta Ellis any more valid then anyone elses?
‘’Anybody who suggest otherwise is just wrong.’’
That bothered me, because you clearly think you are above everybody else or something..
All opinions are not created equal.
I don’t think I’m above “everybody else.” Everybody’s entitled to their own opinion, but some opinions, when faced with the facts, are stupid.
The earth is not flat. If you want to believe otherwise, knock yourself out. Doesn’t make you right. Not all opinions are equally valid.
So, yes, my opinion on Monta Ellis – being grounded in statistics,, observation, and an understanding of the game of basketball – is more valid that some other people’s.
If you’re going to get your feelings hurt when somebody says your opinion is silly and misguided, perhaps you should work harder to based your opinions on some form of reality.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 10:45 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
The earth is not flat. If you want to believe otherwise, knock yourself out.
in basketball sense it is flat so the person with that view has validity.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 2, 2012 2:40 PM PST up reply actions
really? He provides a well thought out argument based on what he sees in game
(which is right by the way) and you accuse him of being a Curry fanboy? Or a Monta hater? Also great response: I think you’re wrong. Give him a reason why.
Ronaldinho is completely correct. Statistically he is right and based on game footage he is right. The entire team stops moving when Monta has the ball because it seems like most times when Monta has the ball and is dribbling it’s not a set play: it’s Monta going to iso. Players don’t expect him to pass: they expect him to shoot.
The only time he ever thinks to pass is when he’s up in the air with 3 big guys all around him and he has no where to go, so he passes out to the 3pt line and gets bailed out (2-4 of these for every good penetration he has). He also doesn’t have very soft passes, and a few have become turnovers because he tries to bullet it to Lee above his head and of course no one’s gonna catch that.
He may pass, but it’s a last second decision after he realizes in the air that he has no shot.
by Nith on Feb 2, 2012 10:05 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
quit it with the fanboy accusations
You are on a Warriors fan site blogging about basketball. You are a fanboy.
by eastbayglory on Feb 2, 2012 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
ever consider that they are wide open because ellis creates that space
and demands attention when he drives and moves inside?
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
by j-spliff415 on Feb 2, 2012 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
ever consider that they are wide open because the other team knows most of the time monta isn't going to pass it?
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Yes, that is some of the reason. Some of the reason is Ronaldihno’s explanation, as well. It’s game theory stuff.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 12:45 PM PST up reply actions
Sure.
But that’s the point.
When you get someone wide open, GET THEM THE BALL.
It doesn’t matter if you get them wide open and you, instead, take a stupid shot – which is what Monta does a whole heck of a lot of. Monta is clearly really really good at collapsing a defense.
But if he were a more willing passer, then those wide open guys would be getting more shots. And Monta would be taking fewer. And if defenses reacted to that by not leaving the wide open guys, that would create easier shots for Monta, so his FG% would go up even more.
It’s not rocket science. It doesn’t matter how open someone is if another player is taking a highly contested shot.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 1:45 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
i dont think you're giving him enough credit
the entire point of this article is about how monta is finding that open man
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
by j-spliff415 on Feb 2, 2012 2:10 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
And I call B.S.
He may be doing it slightly better than he was last year, but I’m not sure that’s the case.
His assists are up, but from what I’ve seen, with the exception already noted (which is not trivial), I don’t see that coming from a change in Monta’s play so much as from the fact that he’s been our de facto point even more than usual because Curry’s been out.
but every other time he's been the 'de facto point'
we havent seen him pass like this. the reason articles are being written are because he is noticibly changing his game.
i think that maybe its hard to believe because all the monta hate breeds stubborness
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
Maybe.
I’d believe it more if I actually saw it when I watched the games. But, like I said before, I see a lot of the same stuff that I’ve already mentioned. I admit that a small uptick in assists is a hard thing to see … but I don’t feel like his game has changed dramatically.
Especially when you consider how terrible he’s been shooting.
If you’re willing to write off his much worse shooting as a small sample size abberation, furthermore, shouldn’t you do the same with his assist numbers?
He’s done a better job dumping it off to a big man on the baseline this year. The downside of that is how many times he keeps getting caught in the air with no place to go.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 10:58 AM PST up reply actions
You know the fans hate you when you get criticized and spoke bad on for dropping dimes. Ouch. Monta deserves better than this. Unlike SC30, dude actually wants to be here. This board reflects what I see at oracle every game. A sea of Curry jersey’s next to a koi pond of Ellis T-shirts.
by J-RIDAH on Feb 2, 2012 10:11 AM PST reply actions 8 recs
doesnt matter if he wants to be here
he hasnt played good basketball since we believe and fans are noticing
Whendid Curry say he didn't want to be here? Quit making shit up.
by notEdreese on Feb 2, 2012 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Well J-Ridah says he knows Curry isn't enamored with the bay and the FO knows it ,take that as you will
Add that into how he talks about playing in Charlotte, he wanted to be drafted by NY(picked right after us) and his reaction to when we did pick him at that moment, how he often has seems not “into it” this year, east coast ties and his wife’s interests (east coast/LA wannabe actor/model) it does make sense
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
He'd probably be happier
if the Warriors would win more games. How many players are going want to stick around a perennial 30 game winner if they have other options?
True. But, the Warriors win more games if Curry played like he did yesterday against the JAZZ/
In order words, his happiness is in his hands. Because he is the pg. Its up to him to be the playmaker we all been hopin he’d turn out to be.
yup
He ain’t no victim of circumstance, his and the teams future is partly in his own hands.
by Xtremelink on Feb 3, 2012 3:54 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Personally, I want them both gone
How’s that J? :)
I do think, too many people here look at the numbers instead of how to improve them. Monta can be a weapon, he’s not been utilized properly since 2008, which is about when his production went from great to inconsistent.
On that note, Steph has GOT to improve
He really hasn’t improved or taken a step forward. He’s a nice player but plays too enigmatic to be our ‘guy’ atm. He’s capable of it, but I haven’t seen him make the steps forward, injury or not.
I think our team will be better when Steph takes more control and monta plays off of him. Too many nights we see the reverse.
I can’t believe this is green and people actually agree with this tool. Nothing you have said mentions anything about Steph Curry being a far superior player than Monta Ellis, jersey sales have nothing to do with it.
by Anonymous1337 on Feb 2, 2012 3:01 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Steph is still inconsitent and far from the playmaker we were all hoping for.
If he strings a few more double doublt performances like he did last night against the JAZZ, I’d say he has shown some signs of moving in the right direction. As of now though, he is still inconsistent and for the most part a TURNOVER MACHINE.
You did it J-RIDAH, one of your posts turned green!
And you said it would never happen… good job
Haha. I didn’t rec it — thought it was mostly inaccurate and/or hyperbolic — but I did think the koi pond metaphor was rather poetic.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
I've been real happy with Monta this year
I’m sure we can all find something to complain about if you dig (hell, people complain about how LeBron plays)
bottom line for me is that he continues to improve. I’ll take it
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
He continues to improve in SOME aspects. His efficiency is down, though, as is his rebounding, while his turnovers are up. Could all be sample size stuff, we’ll see. Gotta look at the whole, though.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 12:47 PM PST up reply actions
His shooting looks abnormal though
He’s missing stuff he always used to make, it’s odd
RIP Al Davis
PS3 - agentpoop (dont ask why the name... tell me if your from a blog)
twitter - @nateoak5
"No difference maker in this draft taf. Sorry to be the 1 to break it to you." J-Ridah 1/23/12
my take on Monta this year
is that he is clearly working on aspects of his game that have long been a problem.
I’ll take some marginal, inconclusive drop-offs in other areas and still walk away happy
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 3, 2012 10:46 AM PST up reply actions
Except you don't have to look very hard to find the things Monta is doing wrong.
Comparing him to Lebron is laughable.
I see improvement in one area this year: he seems to have a better recognition of games when he “doesn’t have it” and he stops chucking up dumb shots. Last season there were a lot of close games we lost when Monta kept shooting, despite other players having favorable matchups. That seems to be happening less this year.
But other than that, I don’t really see any improvement. I see the same poor dribble, the same lack of court awareness, the same tendency to leave his feet without knowing where he wants to go with the ball, the same dumb decisions in end-of-game situations, the same gambling for steals, the same intermittent defensive effort (although perhaps intermittent defensive effort is an improvement, I may have to give him that one).
And he’s not finishing very well this year, and rebounding worse.
So I’m not real sure about this continued improvement thing. Sure, his assist numbers are up … but how much of that is just a function of higher usage and a greater ballhandling ability in light of Steph’s injury?
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
even when he doesnt have it,
he still ends up going 5-17 or 6-21
why does every article on here turn into Monta hatred?
The guy has made an attempt to change his game for the team. He should be rewarded, nit criticised! He’s the only player from last year that looks like he’s added another weapon to his arsenal (post moves).
I’ll agree he’s not having a fantastic season, but he’s shown much more effort to improve his game than the rest of his teammates.
And also to all the guys on here than love it when Monta gets picked or misses shots…. Please sign yourselves out.
He should be rewarded, nit criticised! He’s the only player from last year that looks like he’s added another weapon to his arsenal (post moves).
How about the team starts winning first before we exempt ANYONE from criticism?
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 12:48 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
yeah agreed. that's a fair statement
Warriors have been all below par. Including coach
Yeah, one thing worth noting – criticism doesn’t necessarily mean you don’t like someone. I’ve always been a Monta fan, but I also see flaws in his game that hurt the team. I don’t think discussing that necessarily has to be hate.
by Missing Barry on Feb 2, 2012 1:05 PM PST up reply actions 9 recs
He’s the only player from last year that looks like he’s added another weapon to his arsenal (post moves).
And yet he’s worse at putting the ball in the basket than he was last year.
Nobody doubts Monta’s effort or heart.
Unfortunately, Monta is proving that effort and heart aren’t enough to win you ball games.
then why does it seem like he gets singled out
You should be bagging everyone equally.
by maryjane on Feb 2, 2012 2:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Why should I be bagging everyone equally?
Monta is the player who has the biggest gap between his physical skills and his production of anyone on the team.
Lee doesn’t appear to have the physical skills to be a great defender, and lo and behold, he’s not a great defender. But at least he makes the team significantly better on offense when he’s on the floor.
Curry has been hurt, so it’s hard to bag on him. And, unlike Monta, he’s got an elite skill.
Monta is the only player who makes dumb play after dumb play on this team. Other players may be limited, but nobody else displays as low a basketball IQ.
Furthermore, the reason why Monta seems to get bagged on more than anybody else is because we’re all pretty much in agreement about everybody else. We don’t have anybody here saying that CUrry is a great defender. Everybody pretty much agrees: really smart player, maybe not a natural PG, but the offense flows pretty well when he’s running the point except for those dumb one-handed passes. Moderately below-average defender.
Lee, again, I think everybody agrees: very poor defender. Great complementary player who can get taken out of the game in certain situations, and needs to work well with other players to be effective.
Monta, on the other hand, has a people saying absurd things like that he’s a great distributor, that he’s among the best two-guards in the league. People talk about him like he’s a Durant or Lebron- level scorer. So we get in a lot of discussions about him because some of the people here actually think he’s a good player, possibly our best player.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 7:14 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not buying this
You are a monta Ellis hater.
You, have mentioned superlatives galore about Steph in the past. You just said it again “elite skill”.
Someone does a nice write up about Ellis being a distributor and you cut it all down and turn monta into the antagonist AGAIN.
Ellis carried this team to 35 wins last year. He was banged up night after night, but you frobt see him using injuries to excuse himself. All these Steph curry supporters need to wake up and realise he is not as awesome as we ALL thought he would be after his rookie season. However, I do agree he is our greatest asset as of now, only coz of his contract. We should have dealt him for CP3 but didn’t.
Our most skilful player is still monta Ellis. Too bad most of the folk here don’t see it.
by maryjane on Feb 2, 2012 7:32 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You just said it again "elite skill".
I did indeed say it. Curry is among the very best who have every played the game of basketball at 3-pt shooting and free throw shooting. That’s an elite skill. Praising him for having an elite skill isn’t hating on Monta.
Someone does a nice write up about Ellis being a distributor and you cut it all down and turn monta into the antagonist AGAIN.
That’s because he’s not a good distributor.
Ellis carried this team to 35 wins last year.
No, not really. We were actually worse on both ends of the floor with Monta on the court last year as opposed to when he was off the court. He carried us? I call b.s. A more compelling argument to be made is that he held us back.
Played with great heart. Left it all on the court. But tried to do too much and ended up hurting us, rather significantly, for that matter.
There’s a reason why guys like Monta never seem to play on winning teams: they’re not playing winning basketball. Please show me a high-volume, low-efficiency, bad-rebounding, horrid defense player on a top team. Heck, find me one on any of the top teams in the past five years.
Monta plays losing basketball. He looks good doing it, but you can’t win with a player who plays as badly as he does carrying such a big load. You’d think two seasons where we were demonstrably better with him off the court would convince people of that, but I guess not.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 2, 2012 11:29 PM PST up reply actions 3 recs
Our most skilful player is still monta Ellis. Too bad most of the folk here don’t see it.
Haha. I certainly don’t. Nor does the historical record.
Career per 36 minutes
Curry 18.6 (.582 true shooting %) / 6.1 ast / 4.3 reb / 1.8 stl
Ellis 19.6 pts (.535 true shooting %) / 4.4 ast / 3.7 reb / 1.7 stl
This season (despite Curry’s ankle issues)
Curry 19.0 pts (.585 ts) / 7.1 ast / 4.6 reb / 2.3 stl
Ellis 20.4 pts (.500 ts) / 6.4 ast / 2.9 reb / 1.7 stl
Two-year adjusted plus-minus
Curry +3.88
Ellis -4.73
What “skill” are we talking about, exactly? The ability to miss a whole ton of shots and help the team lose games?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 5:19 AM PST up reply actions 4 recs
monta ellis has an elite ability to look like a better player than he actually is
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
by bigkino217 on Feb 3, 2012 7:41 AM PST up reply actions 7 recs
Rec'd
I agree that Monta gets a lot more criticism that others. How is it fair that other players are excused so easily. Physical limitations? Injury? Curry being injured still is no excuse for his turnovers. And he is never going to become athletic enough to defend well, or penetrate. I’d rather people just admit their bias instead of try to justfy their warped reasoning.
yes
People play dumb when it comes to their favorite player. They also act like its a secret and they’re soo sneaky for anyone to notice their bias
by Xtremelink on Feb 3, 2012 4:02 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I want to trade Ellis now.
Because i really like him and his game. I want to see him flourish with a good team. Im too the point where I’d rather root for him on a different team because he’d likely play better there. Start Rush at the 2. This year sucks I really dont care what happens.
I feel that Monta has played how his coaches have always asked him to play. With Barron he wasn’t the primary, After Barron he was, and Smart overused him for whatever reason. This year MJ wanted him to post up and distribute more…And he is doing that.
I think he takes a lot of crap that isnt really on him. Yes he takes dumb shots sometimes, but sometimes thats what coaches want, shots early in the clock.
Anyway just my thoughts
http://www.youtube.com/user/HANDSOMElifeOFswing - Cal Football Highlights+ More Bay area sports
by 4Ever Golden on Feb 2, 2012 1:33 PM PST reply actions 2 recs
I totally agree. Thats why I say Monta deserves better than this fanbase. Its mostly Curry’s fault. Before Curry hit the scene there was not as much trade Monta talk and micro-analyzing his game. SC30 gets here and Monta says they cant play together and the most common reaction from the fans is move Monta. As I said before, SC30 is my fav player in the league but he will be exposed if Monta wasn’t here. Monta helps his team in so many ways because he can create his shot and demand a defense collapse. Not many players on this team can do that besides he and Nate. Actually he’s the only player that does it. I wanna see Monta win just for the fact that I never thought he half assed it out there. The dude has a tatoo of the Bay bridge and despite witnessing the we believe team get dismantled the summer after he never demanded a trade. He never mentioned playing for another team unlike SC30, I repeat, THE MAN HAS A TATOO OF THE BAY BRIDGE ON HIS BACK. If Monta were to get traded ill root for him to kill every game he plays here because this fanbase deserves to lose to him. And when SC30 tells his agent he dont really wanna sign a extension here and would prefer to be traded, I wanna see all those Curry jerseys I see at Oracle get burned.
by J-RIDAH on Feb 2, 2012 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 4 recs
Monta doesn’t deserve this fanbase? Are you serious? Do your realize how good the crowds are at Oracle every night?
What do tattoos have to do with anything?
You really just need to stop with your moronic propaganda.
by Anonymous1337 on Feb 2, 2012 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
I got nothing but love for Monta
But I do think a trade could benefit both sides.
I also think trading Steph could benefit both sides.
Bottom line is Curry is the better player NOW and will still be better in the future.
The Hornets wanted Steph in a trade, not Monta “Plays with his heart of his sleeve and has a bridge tattoo” Ellis.
by Anonymous1337 on Feb 2, 2012 3:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Questionable
Curry is a more effective player now. Neither + David LEe are doing anything to get us anywhere relevant.
Switch Curry with CP3 and we are a playoff team
Swtich Monta with DWade and we are a playoff team
Switch David LEe with Dirk and we are a playoff team
None of them should be held at any special position.
by tafkasam on Feb 2, 2012 3:30 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
my point is J is right
There’s a ridiculous attachment to Steph Curry here, despite the fact he’s done nothing.
And that’s not to say Monta is guilt free. Just realize, Monta’s not holding back some great player. If Steph was a great player, he’d assert himself over Monta. You think someone like Rose or CP3 or Deron would limit their time on ball, the way Steph does?
by tafkasam on Feb 2, 2012 3:32 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
The same can be said for Monta Ellis, except that well, Monta Ellis is not as good as Stephen Curry.
I don’t care about attachments, if anything David Lee is the most advertised player at Oracle, you see his face everywhere.
And were Rose, CP3 or Deron Williams put into the same situation as Steph? Playing with a 2 guard that needs the ball to be effective? Incredibly inefficient? Negative before they even played a single minute together in a game?
What about coaching? Steph was amazing under Don Nelson, but had to deal with a year under a horrible coach in Keith Smart while running Monta into the ground and letting him do what he wants, which is be mediocre.
by Anonymous1337 on Feb 2, 2012 3:37 PM PST up reply actions
And your point about J-RIDAH being correct about anything he has said is just plain wrong. All he talked about were jerseys and bridge tattoos…come on now.
by Anonymous1337 on Feb 2, 2012 3:39 PM PST up reply actions
I don't know that triple double without Ellis was indicative of just how good he could be
And for a rookie and how dominant he was (25 pts per game, 7+ assists, and like 3 rebounds) I’d say if he really was given the full reigns to the team he would have really taken huge steps as a PG. Nellie was a PG coach and so is Mark Jackson, which is why Im surprised Curry hasn’t taken bigger steps. His ankle has limited him, but in truth when you have a 7 year vet on the team who’s coach lets him do whatever he wants (Smart) of course Curry is going to be limited. It’s hard as a rookie to take huge steps when there is someone else considered the man. Rose didn’t have to deal with someone who dominated the ball as much as Ellis (Gordon to a point but meh), Cp3 was given the team as well as Deron. All these stars never played along side another star (other than Kobe) where their touches were limited. Especially for being a guard as well, they don’t complement each other very well (two undersized guards who both shoot a lot).
I simply don't buy this
Elite players TAKE command of a team, regardless of the instructions. Do you see Lebron fade out of a game (wait… bad example :) ). Do you see CP3, just defer to Chauncey, Mo, Blake for extended quarters? No. Does Deron, Rose, WEstbrookand many other players attempting to be alpha dog? No.
MY biggest problem with Steph, is not passing and not shooting . It’s playing hot potato with the ball and doing his best derek fisher impression. He gets too passive and defers to monta. Basically plays like Dorell, sitting on perimeter, waiting to see if he’ll get the ball or not.
A PG, let alone our most talented player shouldn’t do this.
An EXCELLENT example was last night v. Utah. Steph did a wonderful job taking command and playing in rythym, while letting monta play.
I’m not asking Steph to be ball dominant or kobe bryant-esque. I’m asking him not to disappear for such long stretches. Yes it’s easier to not disappear on dleague all-stars, because he had ball 90% of time. However, Steph needs to learn how to not disappear with better players…
He gets too passive and defers to monta.
I don’t know how you can define a player as “defering” when the other player has the ball and doesn’t pass it.
A point guard’s role is to initiate the offense. Notice the number of possessions when Steph doesn’t even touch the ball after the initial pass.
Furthermore, as somebody pointed out earlier, the difference in their points/36 is 1.6!
In other words, despite playing “like Dorell” Steph is scoring nearly as much as Monta. So, um …
How is that playing passive?
How is that playing passive?
It’s hard to quantify if numerically. And I’ll admit, their are many times Monta goes too tunnel vision at the basket, so it’s a 2 way street.
I just see too many posessions where the ball doesn’t touch Steph’s hands, and I’m not talking about the posessions where it’s monta launching a shot at 18 seconds w/ no ball movement.
I just see too many posessions where the ball doesn’t touch Steph’s hands, and I’m not talking about the posessions where it’s monta launching a shot at 18 seconds w/ no ball movement.
I don’t see how you can blame a player for his teammates not passing him the ball.
What, you want him to yell and scream “get me the damn ball?”
Have you ever played with a guy with that attitude?
That's certainly a point
And thats where I blame Smart for some coaching accountability.
However, this didn’t happen under the baron-led warriors, because he instigated the offense. And when others had the ball, he’d come to it or call for it.
Steph’s too good and quite frankly, only only effective instigator to not be taking the ball more, is my only point. And while blame does deserve to be given to coaches and monta, personal accountability needs to be taken too.
The same way Monta thinks his best way to help team is to continue shooting (which isnt true), Steph has to realize the best way he can help his team is by taking control of the offense and NOT letting monta run sets for quarters at a time. Hiding or being passive is a cop-out. He’s a leader of this team, he needs to assume leadership.
And yea you can apply the same to Lebron too, though this year his attitudes changed (maturity perhaps).
Steph can do more. Steph knows he can. So he should. I have yet to find a shred of evidence in last couple seasons that makes me think Monta is opposed to letting Steph run the team and play off it. I think he prefers it because it’s less tiring/easier looks
also wanted to say
I don’t know if you just started posting, just came back from a sabatical or I am just slow and just noticed your posts in last few months, but I really enjoy your posts.
One of the least bias posters (I won’t lie, I have my own bias’ which i attempt to not let affect my judgement, but i am human, it comes out here and there), and usually pretty fair analysis.
And for a rookie and how dominant he was (25 pts per game, 7+ assists, and like 3 rebounds) I’d say if he really was given the full reigns to the team he would have really taken huge steps as a PG.
post all-star break was 22.1 pts, 5.5 reb, 7.7 ast on 57.3% TS. steph’s a pretty solid rebounder for a PG
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
however he was a rebounding negative
http://www.82games.com/0910/09GSW3.HTM
where as monta was a rebounding positive that year-
http://www.82games.com/0910/09GSW4.HTM
interesting.
Moving forward to this year….
http://www.82games.com/1112/11GSW4.HTM
http://www.82games.com/1112/11GSW3.HTM
Both have been rebounding negatives. Steph’s been worse.
We can’t criticize DLee for such and give a free pass to step.
Weirdly our more cosnsitent rebounding lineups have been-
Robinson-Thompson-Rush-McGuire-Udoh
Ellis-Jenkins-Wright-Lee-Biedrins
Robinson-Ellis-Wright-Lee-Biedrins
Ellis-Jenkins-Wright-Lee-Udoh
Ellis-Thompson-Wright-Lee-Brown
Robinson-Ellis-Rush-Wright-Lee
Those ones actually get over 50% of rebounds
hmm thats interesting
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
It is interesting, but it’s also a tiny sample size. I try to stay away from citing 82games and basketballvalue results this early in the season, except as curiosities with a huge SSS caveat.
I’m still on the fence about the individual v. team rebounding thing. I think it’s fair to cite them both, but I always get a little uncomfortable throwing out the individual part entirely — as some here have done with David Lee, for example. I really find it hard to believe that Lee (11.1 rebounds per 36, career) is a terrible rebounder, or that Udoh (6.6 per 36) is a good one. I definitely buy that the reb/36 numbers alone are an imperfect measure of rebounding impact, though.
As always with stats … the bigger the sample size and the more nuanced the data, the better.
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 10:12 AM PST up reply actions
It is interesting, but it’s also a tiny sample size. I try to stay away from citing 82games and basketballvalue results this early in the season, except as curiosities with a huge SSS caveat.
I was actually more responding to the numbers from 2 years ago. i never would have guessed that the team rebounded better with monta on the floor that year. it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
My gut feeling on that is
Monta gets a team rebounding boost when he’s at PG and we have a bigger more adept SG.
But really, I don’t know. Monta’s still more likely to come up with a ball in heavy traffic because of quickness/athleticism. Which could explain why Nate’s also a rebounding positive.
Curry tends to get a lot of long rebounds which are in open space. Not to slight him. I don’t think he’s a rebounding negative, nor do I think it’s as important at PG as PF
i never would have guessed that the team rebounded better with monta on the floor that year. it doesn’t seem to make sense to me.
Sample size, teammate effects….there are lots of reasons this could be so even if Monta is a below average rebounder.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
Udoh effect
Monta tips a lot of loose balls. Quick hands
That could be an explanation, too, but if that isn’t a long-term trend showing up over his career, I wouldn’t assume he was doing that for just one season.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
FAR from true. Curry is a turnover machine and when he isnt shooting well, he does NOTHING on the court.
He has a bum ankle and will never become athletic enough to defend well, or penetrate. He is certainly not the future.
Turnover machine.
Worth making the comparison.
Last year, to avoid SSS issues:
Curry has .5 more turnovers/36 minutes than Monta. If Curry’s a “turnover machine” that’s hardly an endorsement of Monta.
Furthermore, let’s see, which would you rather have:
Curry’s extra half a turnover of lost possession, or …
Monta’s extra 2.8 shots resulting in only 1.6 points. Since teams average about a point a possession, that means Monta turns the ball over .5 times less, but has 1.2 more empty possessions, for a net loss of .7 possessions/36.
So nice try. But it fails even cursory analysis.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 3, 2012 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
They both turn it over too much
I blame David Lee’s contract.
Yeah I blame David Lee for everything.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 12:50 PM PST up reply actions
amen
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Nice try yourself but we should all be expecting MORE from Curry. Why are people setting the bar so low for our PG?
Its unacceptable for him to be turning the ball over as much as he is PERIOD. And as a playmaker and primary ball handler? It’s even more glaring. We should be holding him to a higher standard given his role in the team. We need a PG who takes care of the ball and if Curry is only marginally better than Monta, then trade him for someone significantly BETTER at a position of need like center, and let Monta play point. He needs to do a lot better or he is no more worthy of the PG spot than Monta.
And you failed to address any of my other points about his bum ankle and lack of athleticism / defense in your cursory analysis. We can all pick and choose all our talking points I guess.
Okay, fine, let's talk about the bum ankle:
It’s an injury. It happens. Since he injured a different ligament this time than last time, we’re a LONG way from having any sort of solid proof that it’s going to be a major issue going forward in his career. As someone else pointed out, since Curry joined the league, Monta has missed more games than he has, so if you care about injuries, what does that say?
Curry’s defense at the point not good, but it’s acceptable – moderately below average. Monta’s defense at the two is terrible. So if you care about defense, then you’re not making an argument for Monta.
Curry’s athleticism, I agree with you on, but my question is so what? Athleticism isn’t an end into itself. Rather, athleticism is only relevant because it tends to contribute to production. Curry’s production is better, so I don’t care about his athleticism.
And as a playmaker and primary ball handler?
You actually expect the guys who handle the ball more to have more turnovers, so this is a stupid criticism.
We should be holding him to a higher standard given his role in the team.
But Monta has a bigger role on the team, so you excuse his faults?
Monta’s worse at handling the ball, so you want him doing it more, even though what Curry is doing is unacceptable?
(Either you didn’t watch or you didn’t pay attention, but you might have noticed how Monta is rendered completely ineffective by aggressive trapping away from the basket – eg, see the third quarter of the Heat game. He’s not a point guard.)
What you’re saying doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s literally incoherent – you’re LITERALLY applying different standards to those players to make Monta look better, attacking Curry for faults where Monta is worse.
by Ronaldinho on Feb 3, 2012 1:11 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You are only disclosing the information that supports your incredibly biased stance while ignoring the other facts.
First of all. FACT.
Monta missed games because of non-basketball related activities, he smashed it into his moped and much to all our suprise he has not had any re-occuring issues with that ankle in close to 3 years. Curry is injuring his ankle ON the court, BY himself, and it is reoccuring.
FACT.
Curry has injured the same ankle not once or twice, but 7 times in 2 years. Is that not proof enough? How many more times does he have to roll his ankle before you admit that he has a bum ankle?
At this point I’m one of many who is holding their breath every time curry moves towards the basket. I will admit I am wrong if he can make it through the rest of the season without any problems. But if he rolls it 1 more time, this season, that should be enough proof for you.
defense at the point not good, but it’s acceptable – moderately below average. Monta’s defense at the two is terrible. So if you care about defense, then you’re not making an argument for Monta.[/quote]You cannot be serious. I’m going to ask you the question, are YOU watching the games? Monta has been absolutely changed on defense this season and as you notice, there is a drastic difference in the number of negative comments about Monta’s defense this season compared to last season. You are perhaps the only one who is still holding onto the stance that Monta cannot play decent defense against 2s. Curry on the other hand, is HORRID on defense. He hasn’t improved at all. In fact he may have gotten worse with that ankle.
athleticism, I agree with you on, but my question is so what? Athleticism isn’t an end into itself. Rather, athleticism is only relevant because it tends to contribute to production. Curry’s production is better, so I don’t care about his athleticism.[/quote]So what? Again you are only looking at part of the picture. Athleticism isn’t only important because it leads to production, athleticism is just as important on defense if not more so. FACT. Part of athleticsm is lateral quickness, which equates to the ability to stay in front of opposing players. FACT. Curry has horrible lateral quickness and thus cannot stay in front of other players.
Monta has a bigger role on the team, so you excuse his faults?[/quote]
Excuse me, but this is Curry’s third year in the league. NO coach is holding him back. NO ONE is stopping him from being great. NO ONE is stopping him from having the bigger role. Monta is not the reason Curry is not great. Perhaps his ankle is to blame. Perhaps it is his sloppiness with his passes. Whatever it is, you cannot possibly say that Curry today, is having a great season. Because he hasn’t. If he strings together a couple performance like the one he had yesterday. I’d change my stance. But as it stands now. He deserves as much criticism as Ellis. It bugs me, if I can half quote you, that some people choose to completely IGNORE all the things Curry does to hurt the team, and ignore all the things Ellis does to help the team.
you’re saying doesn’t make any sense at all. It’s literally incoherent – you’re LITERALLY applying different standards to those players to make Monta look better, attacking Curry for faults where Monta is worse.[/quote]Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean he/she is incoherent. As for ‘LITERALLY applying different standards’, I must quote you again:
should I be bagging everyone equally?Monta is the player who has the biggest gap between his physical skills and his production of anyone on the team.
Lee doesn’t appear to have the physical skills to be a great defender, and lo and behold, he’s not a great defender. But at least he makes the team significantly better on offense when he’s on the floor.
Curry has been hurt, so it’s hard to bag on him. And, unlike Monta, he’s got an elite skill.[/quote]
Amazing hypocrite. You are holding Ellis to a higher standard because he isn’t playing up to his ‘physical skills’. And give everyone else a pass because of excuses like physical limitation (Lee) or injury (Curry). You should be holding everyone accountable not just Monta. Curry is not playing well and he needs blame. Lee’s defense needs blame. Udoh’s lack of rebounding needs blame. ANDRIS definitely needs blame. This crusade against ellis is just biased BS and you will never admit it. But we can all see it.
by MonstaEllis on Feb 3, 2012 4:26 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
Monta missed games because of non-basketball related activities, he smashed it into his moped and much to all our suprise he has not had any re-occuring issues with that ankle in close to 3 years.
You’re having some trouble with timelines. Monta got in his moped crash a year before Curry joined the team. As you point out, none of his injuries since that season have been related to the moped.
And yet he’s STILL missed more games than Curry.
When somebody makes a big deal out of shouting “FACT” when they say something, you’d think they’d get the basic facts right. You seem to be confused about them here.
Curry is injuring his ankle ON the court, BY himself, and it is reoccuring.
Rather, it has reoccurred. WIth a different ligament.
It’s possible that Curry’s ankles are just structurally weak. But it’s also possible that they’re not, and that he’s re-injured them because of bad luck and/or improper conditioning (eg, not paying enough attention to rehabbing his kinesthetics).
You don’t have any basis for making a claim about that one way or the other. Neither do I. I am merely suggesting that we don’t jump to conclusions.
You cannot be serious. I’m going to ask you the question, are YOU watching the games? Monta has been absolutely changed on defense this season and as you notice, there is a drastic difference in the number of negative comments about Monta’s defense this season compared to last season.
I have watched the games. I agree that Monta’s effort on defense has been better, although it’s still inconsistent. However, he’s still struggling with physical limitations and he still gambles too much for steals. Those things haven’t changed.
On the effort question, Monta has had streaks of effort before, and since I’ve seen inconsistent effort so far this season I’m not ready to pronounce him a changed man just yet.
Curry on the other hand, is HORRID on defense. He hasn’t improved at all. In fact he may have gotten worse with that ankle.
Indeed, it might have gotten worse. You would expect defense to really suffer with a bad ankle. So the only sensible thing to do is to not assume that the poor defense we’ve seen from Curry is indicative of what he’s truly capable of.
Athleticism isn’t only important because it leads to production, athleticism is just as important on defense if not more so.
Sure. ANd for his career, Curry has been a better defender of ones that Monta has been of twos. So I ask, why does athleticism matter so much?
Whatever it is, you cannot possibly say that Curry today, is having a great season. Because he hasn’t.
You might notice that I haven’t said that Curry has had a great season.
I will say, however, that when he’s played, he’s been better than Monta. Despite really struggling, partially because of the injury – and we all agree he’s been slow out of the gate this year – he’s scoring 1.4 points less per 36 than Monta on .085 better TS%.
So if that’s Curry being poor, what on earth does it say about Monta?
I’ve resisted drawing statistical conclusions about either players play this season because of the small sample size issues, but if you’re going to say Curry hasn’t been great, what does that say about Monta?
You called Curry a turnover machine, and yet he’s turning the ball over this season at the same rate as Monta.
If one or two performances changes your mind about a player, by the way, you’re as fickle as the wind. Any player can put together one or two or even five or six great games. The question about a player is how they perform night in, night out. How bad are their bad games? What are their average games?
He deserves as much criticism as Ellis. It bugs me, if I can half quote you, that some people choose to completely IGNORE all the things Curry does to hurt the team, and ignore all the things Ellis does to help the team.
What are those things that Ellis does? Take too many poor shots? Turn the ball over like a (your words) TURNOVER MACHINE? Distribute less well than Curry? Play totally inadequate defense against two-guards? What? Where is this great production that I’m somehow missing.
Curry is not playing well and he needs blame.
He’s playing better than Monta, injury and all.
You've made a lot of very reasonable points intermixed with some exaggeration that I just plain disagree with.
It seems like my further elaboration would be repetition with slight variation at this point so I end this discussion by saying that while I do not always agree with your chosen interpretation of the evidence, I respect your viewpoints, and appreciate the discussion.
First the reaction to move Monta
was because Curry was tearing it up with D-leaguers against some of the best teams without Monta. Exposed for what? Curry’s biggest weaknesses is aggressiveness and defense. Getting a bigger guard will help with a big 2 guard that can play defense (not even big, just right size) and it is shown he is much more aggressive when Monta isn’t playing because the ball stays in Curry’s hands, allowing him to make plays and take shots.
Curry can create his own shot… but he doesn’t do it in the same way that Ellis does. They both have weaknesses: Curry doesn’t have the speed to burn most PG but he has an amazing shot and can go left. Ellis has that elite speed but always goes right and has a very sketchy shot. Maybe he didn’t half ass anything, but that means he tried his hardest and was bad.
Tatoo has nothing to do with anything… We wouldn’t burn his jersey. I do understand that people tend to overrate him, but most of Curry’s praise comes in response to when people constantly praise Ellis for 1 play (and ignore his 5 stupid plays) and when people criticize Curry and say he should be traded.
Tattoo has nothing to do with anything… We wouldn’t burn his jersey.
Word.
It’s really no use, though. No matter how many times you point out:
• Much better rebounder
• Much more efficient scorer
• Better passer
• Much more positive effect on the team, for going on three years
• Less than one-third the salary
J-Ridah will continue to cover his ears and intone:
• Tattoos
• Green-eyed golden boy
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 5:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Nah I disagree
I hate to say it, but I’ve heard atleast a dozen people say ’monta’s ghetto. monta’s trash. get him out of here.’ ‘steph knows how to play real basketball’
My reaction to that, tends to vary (mostly related to how much I’ve drank/if it was a good or bad at at work, from ignore to purposely make a comment back insiting a fight) howevere I do not condone it one bit. However there is no denying the latent racism in the Monta/Steph debate.
Now I’m not saying anyone on this board does it. I like to think Ron, Sleepy and most posters who point out Monta’s flaws are evolved human being who don’t look at such factors. I wouldn’t accuse anyon on GSoM of this. But that was NOT J’s point. He was saying at Oracle and he’s right. I’ve heard that from a range of people sitting around me. I’ve heard it from friends of mine who i suspect of being judgmental. There’s no way around it. Steph’s one of the most marketable men in the NBA. He appeals to ALL demo’s. Black, white, asian, young, old etc. Well Spoken but still fun (he’s not some stuffy robot), his game is fun to watch, fuses both a fundamental style and some street flair, clean cut. etc.
And let’s be fair. Majority of fans who go to games, are not ‘stat geeks’, they don’t look deeper. They go by entertainment value and gut feeling. That’s why I love GSoM. I can have a broad variety of intelligent convo’s on the Warriors, be it statistical, tactical, developmental etc. so to say the appearance factor doesn’t matter is niave.
To deny there isn’t a judgemental/appearance aspect to it, is false
by tafkasam on Feb 3, 2012 7:29 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I hate to say it, but I’ve heard atleast a dozen people say ’monta’s ghetto. monta’s trash. get him out of here.’
Meh, I call BS. I mean, the “get him out of here” part — sure. Based on his mediocre performance over the past three seasons.
Your homework for today is to find one regular poster here who has criticized Monta for his tattoos, or who ever has said or even implied the term “ghetto.”
There will be no extra point!
...
I can’t speak for anyone else here, or throughout Warriors Nation, but as long as you’re “going there” with the class issue…
All things being equal, as a liberal-coastal-type, I generally find it much easier to root for a guy from a hardscrabble background who had to fight all his life for everything he has achieved than I do to root for a silver-spoon kid from a wealthy hoops family who was basically born on third base (to mix sports metaphors).
I honestly don’t know how many times I have to point to the actual production on the court before people cease and desist with the bullcrap about the green eyes and the tattoos. What about a 50-80 point gap in scoring efficiency and a 25-50% difference in rebound and assist rate do people not understand? Those differences alone typically spell the difference between winning basketball and losing basketball.
And that’s without even touching on the vast difference in salary.
There will be no extra point!
I'll make it clearer
I thought my post said it.
I didn’t accuse any poster on GSoM of this, which is why I love talking hoops here. I said I’ve heard this around oracle and in bars etc.
I think that’s what J-R said. And I do think it’s a legitimate point. The average fan is not aware of the 25-50% difference in rebounding, and you know it. The average fan is looking for excitement and winning. They don’t pick up on subtleties as much. I’m saying he’s right. Monta gets ALOT of judgement from the suburban crowd who frequent warrior games…
I’ll make it clearer
I thought my post said it.
My bad — you did say it. When I read “people” in the first line my first instinct is usually to infer “people on GSoM.”
I guess I don’t hang around conservative white suburban types enough.
I will note that the Sleepyette is mostly grossed out by Monta’s tats, whereas she gets weak in the knees looking at Steph. But I’m constantly trying to disabuse her of that prejudice!
There will be no extra point!
I will note that the Sleepyette is mostly grossed out by Monta’s tats,
Hah. Miss Taf loves Kwame and Nate for some apparent reason. Now every casual fan loves the little guy with energy, so nate makes sense. She keeps pushing ’we’re naming our dog Kwame’.
I kind of shudder at the ridicule my friends will give me when i say “I named my dog after Kwame Brown”
on a related note
my wifey pointed out that Steph appears to be working on not biting his nails anymore…
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 3, 2012 10:52 AM PST up reply actions
Monta gets ALOT of judgement from the suburban crowd who frequent warrior games…
based on appearance.
I do not think any of this is the case on GSoM. And any poster I’ve seen, who has said something remotely close has immediately disappeared (presumably banned).
Now I don’t know if that’s what JR meant, but his point on oracle and crowds treatment of monta v. curry is somewhat founded in the dichotomy of their appearance and presentation.
Its crazy because coming into the league nobody knew if Curry would be the next Steve Nash or the next Trajan Langdon, yet the moment Monta said they cant play together damn near every Warrior fan sided with Curry before he played a NBA game. That right there shows it has nothing to do with Monta’s stats because they had no idea if Steph would be a bust or not. He had shown nothing at that point while Monta was a clear stud.
to be fair
Curry was the darling of the NCAA.
I can’t really think of a bigger college star than him in recent history. That alone, gives him much more hype than Lawson, Jennings or Tyreke would have gotten
Its the same thing as Reke saying he cant play with Jimmer and Sac fans saying trade Reke. Its senseless to me.
That is not true.
Ellis and Tyreke are two different people with different team history. There were other problems with Monta and the comment was a “last straw” type of deal.
reke is overrated
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
but jimmer is no steph
"Anthony Davis is no different than Al Farouq Aminu." - J--Ridah
Me: So who (from the 2011 draft class) compares with (Anthony) Davis?
J-Ridah: Biyombo
Sheesh, not even close.
So far, anyway.
Steph’s a very good passer, rebounds his position really well, forces steals, and shoots better than almost everyone in the NBA. The few guys that may shoot slightly better than Curry (Ray Allen, Nash, Nowitzki, e.g.) didn’t shoot nearly as well as he did at a comparable age.
Jimmer does basically nothing on the court except shoot, and he shoots atrociously.
Of course, Steph took a little while to find his stroke in the league. But I don’t think even at this early stage he looked as totally lost as the Jimmer.
For now:
Curry >>>>>>>>>> ’Reke/Ellis >>>>>>>>>>>>> JImmer
There will be no extra point!
damn near every Warrior fan sided with Curry before he played a NBA game.
IIRC, lot of people here thought (and still think) that the press’s reaction to that l’il comment was pretty overblown, and that all Monta was really doing was stating an obvious truism. I’d love to see the original GSoM diary on the topic, though, if you can track it down…
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 10:16 AM PST up reply actions
the moment Monta said they cant play together damn near every Warrior fan sided with Curry before he played a NBA game.
I think a few of us agreed with Montay. They always try to do things the hard way here and Montay could see it coming after witnessing first hand the destruction of the playoff squad.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 3, 2012 10:19 AM PST up reply actions
He had shown nothing at that point while Monta was a clear stud.
I don’t think the words “clear stud” mean what you think they mean.
Monta’s stats, the year before Steph showed up:
19.1 pts/36 on .503 TS%. Now, that was the scootergate year, which may excuse some of that shooting, but think about what else that means: Monta has just demonstrated a huge amount of irresponsible behavior, violated the terms of his contract, and forced us to endure a year of SJax being the de facto point guard. There were questions as to whether he’d ever get his explosiveness back.
Clear stud? More like potential dud.
Now I don’t know if that’s what JR meant, but his point on oracle and crowds treatment of monta v. curry is somewhat founded in the dichotomy of their appearance and presentation.
I don’t think you can assume that.
I mean, we have a pretty knowledgeable basketball fanbase, so people probably recognize the little things that Monta does that hurt you, and the little things Steph does that help.
Anybody who’s ever played even semi-organized ball knows how frustrating it is to play with someone who plays like Monta: taking way too many shots for how good he is. It’s not fun. You run up and down the court and never see the ball.
I mean, I’ve played with guys like that (in more than one sport!). It sucks.
Whereas I’ve also played with guys who always seemed to hit the open shot, and found great ways to make smart passes … and playing with those guys is a lot of fun. Heck, even the dumb-one-handed-passes, when you’re playing and somebody does something like that, you usually appreciate the effort and that he was looking for you.
I mean, we have a pretty knowledgeable basketball fanbase, so people probably recognize the little things that Monta does that hurt you, and the little things Steph does that help.
I think GSoM has an incredibly knowledgeable fanbase. I think your casual fan in a bar, restaurant or oracle is nowhere near that level of knowledge. You know the type of fan I’m talking about and convo’s you get on a daily basis ‘at the water cooler’ and I ‘think’ that’s what JR was referring to. I could be wrong
The dude has a tatoo of the Bay bridge and despite witnessing the we believe team get dismantled the summer after he never demanded a trade. He never mentioned playing for another team unlike SC30, I repeat, THE MAN HAS A TATOO OF THE BAY BRIDGE ON HIS BACK
Great point, very true.
To elaborate...
I think you are right that it shows some loyalty to the Warriors
Monta is as loyal of a Warrior there has ever been. He knows if he demanded a trade to a east coast team he would likely be a allstar and have more endorements yet he has never done it. Not many guys that averaged more than 20 points in a Warriors jersey wanted to stay here, those that averaged 20 or more or close to 20 bolted the 1st chance they got besides Mullin. My problem with the Steph affinity is the fans really believe he wants to be here. Thats what gets me, it has nothing to do with Monta’s stats with me to be honest. I always take up for the guy because I know how hard it is to be here when you can be somewhere else if you wanted to. Curry does not love this team the way Monta does and thats why it irks me when ppl side with him over Monta in terms of trade talk. I dont care about stats in this case. I want to see Monta win as a Warrior because he wants to be here and deserves it. Steph is a damn good player but those in the know know he dont love it here. Thats my gripe with the dub fans at Oracle, they are gonna be heartbroken if they get they wish and move Monta to make SC30 happy and he still skips town to L.A,NY or Cha.
by J-RIDAH on Feb 3, 2012 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
my personal problem with Monta criticism is it often doesn't go deeper than the numbers
I really don’t think Monta is a selfish player. As anyone, who’s played bball will know, someone has to take responsibility in a game when things aren’t going, and he does it, and a lot of time to his own detriment.
I will note, when Steph is assertive, not only does Monta play so much better, because he’s getting looks in a more effective way (off ball) but the entire team is better. I’m not talking shot attempts as much as commanding the ball and running the team more.
And a lot of that’s just Steph’s learning curve on PG. Don’t think Smart helped. The injuries certainly don’t. But when Steph gets it and does this consistently, it’ll be a lot better.
this is honestly one of my favorite things about Monta
Monta is as loyal of a Warrior there has ever been.
Always be a Warriors
"I am very worried about the Warriors"
-brutusbrutus
by Duby Dub Dubs on Feb 3, 2012 10:56 AM PST up reply actions
He knows if he demanded a trade to a east coast team he would likely be a allstar and have more endorements yet he has never done it
So to get completely off the topic – right here is a great example of what the Bay Area has to offer. We ARE a big market. A player here may not have the endorsement opportunities someone in NY has, but they’ll sure beat the hell out of a player stuck in a backwater like Cleveland. The problem with the Warriors is we’re such losers we’re completely irrelevant to the NBA landscape. If this team was winning more, that kind of popularity and endorsement deals would come. We are a big market – and those are the kinds of benefits you get from being a big market.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 11:05 AM PST up reply actions
We are a big market BUT...
Does Monta’s personality play in the bay area? Endorsement wise I mean?
Serious Q.
Would it play more in the south? Probably.
Maybe he should take some lessons from Lincecum…
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 12:51 PM PST up reply actions
The problem with the Warriors is we’re such losers we’re completely irrelevant to the NBA landscape. If this team was winning more, that kind of popularity and endorsement deals would come. We are a big market – and those are the kinds of benefits you get from being a big market.
I have tried telling him this many times. Case in point – LA Clippers. What is the difference between the Lakers and Clippers? Reputation.
If it was just about LA then the Clippers would have been equally as desirable as the Lakers over the past 20 years. If we were a winning team then things would be different. But then J-Ridah will say “Cleveland was winning but nobody wanted to go there” because he fails to realize that the Bay Area is not Cleveland.
. I wanna see Monta win just for the fact that I never thought he half assed it out there.
I gotta agree with this. Montay definitely has the heart of the warrior. Find him the right spot and he’ll be a winner. Our management don’t have the mindset to build a winning team for him here.
Mirror on the wall
Here we are again.
by Skeptic con Urquell on Feb 3, 2012 10:09 AM PST up reply actions
I don't want either of our guards in the role of distributor
they’re both definitely scorers first, and trying to become “distributors” would probably somewhat disrupt the scoring ability they have. What our advantage is on offense, is that both can create plays for their teammates, even though they’re both shoot-first, in any game that either of them doesn’t seem to have their shot, they can take the role of distributor and do a good job. For instance, Monta was 2-9 with 12 assists in our win against Portland, and when both were scoring tonight, it was Curry doing more of the setting up. Against Chicago early in the year, it was a similar situation.
It’s all about finding the right balance. I’d rather not see the ball spend too much time in either of their hands, unless we’ve found a match-up that favors us significantly.
http://nbawarriors.wordpress.com/
its annoying that with all the distributing that mark jackson did in his days
he is failing to pass on what he knows to either one of our guards
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
Well, they say that true PGs are born, not made. Very few guards in the history of the NBA have been able to consistently average 10 assists / 3 turnovers like Mark Jackson.
That said, this season both Curry’s and Monta’s assist rates are up significantly from their career norms. This despite the fact that, due to the lockout, Jackson has only had a couple of months to work with them. Cut the guy a little slack?
There will be no extra point!
by Sleepy Freud on Feb 3, 2012 8:58 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i do
but im not going to say that curry’s game looks better than it did last year, because as of right now, he’s not looking even three quarters as good
It's lonely being the only Warriors fan at UMass :(
We also have bigs that can pass. We can run high post offense and be comfortable with our bigs handling the ball out there.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
Can't run a high post offense when the big is not an offensive threat (Biedrins)
We can realistically only run it thru lee.
Run the whole offense through it? Probably not. Get them involved in the offense? You absolutely can. The high post is one of the most versatile places on the court – it gives you so many options of things you can do.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 12:53 PM PST up reply actions
Lee's passing has been terrible so far...
but in principle I think I would agree. The strongest facet of Biedrins’ offense is his passing (not really a good thing, though) and Lee has been a good passer for most of his career.
http://nbawarriors.wordpress.com/
Udoh’s strongest offensive skill is probably passing, too.
by Missing Barry on Feb 3, 2012 6:01 PM PST up reply actions
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